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LibertyMage
01-29-2010, 06:20 PM
..

LittleLightShining
01-29-2010, 06:25 PM
I feel obligated to speak about the events that have transposed over the last few days in regard to the $350,000 debacle.

I am the chapter coordinator for the Baltimore Campaign for Liberty. This position is unpaid and totally voluntary. Members of the Campaign for Liberty (unpaid) from across Maryland took part in the Ron Paul speaking event at Loyola on the 27th (http://www.campaignforliberty.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=10057). It was a great event and we worked hard to network with the crowd. Feeling pumped, I came home to post the audio of the event with a short recap. Unfortunately, I decided to check this forum first.

At the time I had read about the issue people had already lost their minds. That were convinced 1) that C4L had supported a neo-con and 2) had done so with donated money. The title of the unfortunate tabloid thread says it all. "CFL Spent $350,000 on a pro-war Colorado candidate."

I attempted to make sense (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=228504&page=54) of what was happening from my knowledge of politics. My comment was ignored and the "burn down the C4L" momentum intensified. People who I had never seen contribute to a single thread on the Campaign for Liberty site came out of the wood work to burn down what they felt they were part of. For most of those people - and you know who you are - I suspect you may have a very loose definition of the word "contribution". Tate finally came out with a statement about the issue. It turns out that 1) I was correct in my evaluation of the issue that it was a survey push to exert influence 2) no donated money was spent 3) this was not a cherry picked race that hand selected a neocon.

The only argument that stands at this point is that of the foreign policy position of this candidate. This is where there is an opportunity for everyone here to reflect on reality.

The people on the ground are the real players in this game and it is necessary to rub shoulders with those who score less than 100% on the purity test. That may not sit well with some of you, but those are the rules. If you cannot get over that I suggest you continue to spread the message of liberty from internet forums and see how much traction that gets you.

To see the problems you are creating, lets reflect on the sentiment that this has caused:

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=10724









Thank you! People like Muskman from Belarus, who are surely contributing greatly to our American initiatives, are driving precinct captains away from the Campaign for Liberty. Congratulations, you are hurting our movement more than any socialist or neo-con ever could. The Campaign for Liberty has not been infiltrated. This forum has been infiltrated - by self-righteousness and self-destruction. The resulting drama fest that is typical of internet forums and bathroom walls could not be more counter productive.

Politics is an aggregate science. To be successful in politics you need to push the entire structure in your direction. This is how socialism and imperialism have slowly crept into the great experiment that was liberty. If you are stuck on the idea that we abstain from this game and not play nice with candidates that are in the 95th percentile than you are surely committed to failure and you will die less free then you were born. This is not a sacrifice of principles. Those who are hellbent on thwarting the efforts like the one in question are akin to communists stuck on the idea that "communism works" despite the starvation of society. Shaking hands with non-principled party people makes me sick - but this is how the game is played. The socialists and the imperialists know this. If you do not play by the rules they will always win.

There are people on the ground who are putting much more into the movement then you are and you are hurting their efforts. If you don't like the rules, don't play. Sit in the comfort of a cozy internet forum and ignore the people fighting the tough fights - just don't stab them in the back.
C4L DID spend $350k.

You're making a lot of assumptions about the people who are pissed off. I've been fighting on the ground for this cause since the day I discovered Ron Paul.

ronpaulhawaii
01-29-2010, 06:26 PM
...

You have a lot of gall.

You sound perfect for CfL, arrogant.

The slime you are defending is a friggin "thought crime warrior"

CfL=The CATO of the r3VOLution

LibertyMage
01-29-2010, 06:31 PM
C4L DID spend $350k.

That is not true.

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/blog.php?view=31963


That being said, there is an even more important fact: The Colorado program was funded by a small number of Colorado activists. The funding for this program came ENTIRELY from this small group of new C4L donors.



You're making a lot of assumptions about the people who are pissed off. I've been fighting on the ground for this cause since the day I discovered Ron Paul.

I know there are some people that my comments will not apply to. But it certainly applies to most. It applies to Mr. Belarus. It applies to the umpteen people who suddenly appeared with their first contributions to the site insisting the head of everyone who worked at the organization.

LibertyMage
01-29-2010, 06:33 PM
You have a lot of gall.

You sound perfect for CfL, arrogant.

The slime you are defending is a friggin "thought crime warrior"

CfL=The CATO of the r3VOLution

When someone asks another person to think outside of them self for a moment to consider the consequences of their actions, is that arrogance? Should we not step back at times and consider if what we are doing is hurting or helping us?

Vessol
01-29-2010, 06:34 PM
Thanks for spouting the partyline LibertyMage. I'm glad that our liberty movement has come to match the parties of both, spouting what amounts to what is told to the IRS when questioned.

And I appreciate the argument where instead of accepting that there was a problem, you just go on to compare us to communists and imperialists.

Way to be an elitist too by the old "I do more then you, thus I'm more right then you"

LittleLightShining
01-29-2010, 06:37 PM
That is not true.

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/blog.php?view=31963

Colorado C4L IS NOT organized! They are not officially affiliated with national! They can NOT take donations and fund ads! The money went through NATIONAL for this project.

ETA, those fancy "donate to this state's C4L" bars are a new feature.

UtahApocalypse
01-29-2010, 06:38 PM
I am "MuskMan" I set my location to Belarus randomly since I don't want contact from the Campaign for Liberty again. so I would be happy to address you.......

You have drank the koolaid. It is people like YOU that are what got Campaign for Liberty in this spot. The "War" issue by far is the #1 issue for almost every "Ron Paul" supporters and any compromise on it is unacceptable. It is even a founding principle for the Campaign for Liberty and it seems that those in leadership positions have forgotten that.

As to the response about the ad being a support ad.... I posted the ad, without the purpose, or explanation and out of 165 responses not ONE single person asked about the surveys. They all wanted to know who was the Candidate, What were his positions, and why was "I" (since I posted it) supporting him. It is clearly 100% an endorsement ad that has nothing realistically to do with the survey project.

Mr. Tates response was typical spin that never answered any of the true questions or concerns that were asked. It was all fluff with no meat.

I also would like to point out that "People like Muskman from Belarus, who are surely contributing greatly to our American initiatives, are driving precinct captains away from the Campaign for Liberty." is an exsue. John tate is driving away 100% of the people that have left Campaign for Liberty. It also is already spreading to other major support sites and C$L will be long forgotten and gone soon I am sure.

As to your accusations of "Sit in the comfort of a cozy internet forum and ignore the people fighting the tough fights" you can [rph-edit: $#%^&^^%$#@&&*&*&^%@$#@%$%*)(&)(&^%*&^&^%!!!!] (thank you RPH, I was clearly upset yesterday)

I have probably put more time and effort into the cause of liberty in the last few years in my sleep then you have in your lifetime.

brandon
01-29-2010, 06:46 PM
The people on the ground are the real players in this game and it is necessary to rub shoulders with those who score less than 100% on the purity test. That may not sit well with some of you, but those are the rules. If you cannot get over that I suggest you continue to spread the message of liberty from internet forums and see how much traction that gets you.


The "real players in the game" are the rank and file members that spend their time spreading the message of liberty to friends, family and community. This forum and it's participants were the backbone of the Ron Paul revolution. Please lose your holier-than-thou attitude.





To see the problems you are creating, lets reflect on the sentiment that this has caused:

No the CFL created their own problem. They must have been smoking crack if they didn't realize the majority of their base would shun them for involving themselves with a pro-war thought crime prosecutor



There are people on the ground who are putting much more into the movement then you are and you are hurting their efforts. If you don't like the rules, don't play. Sit in the comfort of a cozy internet forum and ignore the people fighting the tough fights - just don't stab them in the back.

I'm not sure who the collective "you" is you speak of, and it's pretty damn insulting that you think the "people on the ground" and the members are this forum are mutually exclusive groups. And don't you think it's a little hypocritical that YOU are a member of this forum as well?

GunnyFreedom
01-29-2010, 06:48 PM
The two biggest things that concern me is that 1) the guy in question supports hate crime laws, and 2) Tate's response to the controversy was something like "I hear you, we'll adjust some of the rhetoric so that we piss fewer of you off in the future, but really we don't give a damn what you think -- we're gonna keep doing this anyway."

Sorry, but that's inexcusable.

We are a community because we are principled. We are not going to just give up our principles because some appointed, unelected person who alls himself our leader says that we should.

I have been neck-deep in the C4L from day 1. I was not only a local coordinator or a county coordinator, I was a district (regional) coordinator until Tate said we had to resign to run for office to avoid the appearance of endorsing candidates. So I resigned.

I have promoted the C4L everywhere I went, and I even gave a C4L presentation to my county GOP org -- while serving as 1st Vice Chairman of that county.

I don't want to hear you blowing off my outrage like someone who never gave a damn about the C4L. I was the guy who withstood withering criticism in these very forums to stand up for the C4L while you, LibertyMage, were nowhere to be found.

I still support the C4L, but I vehemently object to John Tate's "leadership" and his spin-doctored statement in response to the controversy where he basically told the grassroots to 'fuck off.'

I will continue to support the C4L when John Tate is gone, and until then I will continue to call for an election for national chairman and the entire board. The C4L org may represent me, but John Tate decidedly does NOT, and his 'statement' proves it.

LibertyMage
01-30-2010, 02:18 AM
UtahApocalypse: Retorting with comments such as "I have more liberty in my little finger..." or "let-me-see-how-many-bigpeople-words-I-can-anonymously-throw-across-a-forum" won't help the movement, so I won't bother with that nonsense. By losing your mind like this you are providing a weekpoint in the core constituency of the liberty movement. Political strategists of the opposition will push this button at an opportune time unless you take it away. If you have any concerns about my "neocon grandmotherfucking" tendencies, I would advise you read the articles I wrote about Rutledge (http://www.libertymage.com/index.php/2009/09/05/nintey-minutes-with-jim-rutledge) or Pappas (http://www.libertymage.com/index.php/2009/11/02/90-minutes-with-mike-pappas) where I threw them under the bus for the slightest deviations from the liberty line.

brandonyates: 95% of the C4L members in Maryland have no clue about this site. They spend all of their time on the ground. Despite what you may believe, that is a lot harder then participating on a forum on the internet. What I do find hypocritical is hurting their efforts because you feel you are "the backbone of the Ron Paul revolution".

GunnyFreedom: I don't make any assumptions about anyone specifically and there is no point in arguing degrees of "libertiness". But I do believe there is a bigger problem with how our movement understands politics. Politics aren't won on internet forums - they are won in precincts. If we are to win in 2012, it will be because we grew beyond these forums. The organization that online communication provides for things like fund raising is great. For on the ground influence of votes it is terrible. I am going to be a little presumptuous in saying this, but I think you as a candidate need to understand that more clearly as well. If there were some kind of...I don't know...organization for liberty...that trained activists for district work, maybe you would have a team to help you win an election. Or you can hawk these forums and see how that plays out for you. I hope you don't take that as an attack because it is your campaign to lose. Good luck in your campaign for liberty.

All I ask in this post is that the people here take some time and think about how this has all played out. The immature will get defensive about this request. The mature will acknowledge the significance of the request and handle the next crises with more composure.

LittleLightShining
01-30-2010, 02:21 AM
Mage, It's not about politics. It's about principle.

Bman
01-30-2010, 02:30 AM
A call for reflection.

I'm certainly not about to throw everyone who is involved or works for the C4L under the bus, however mistakes were made and there has to be accountability.

This was a big ticket mistake. I don't care where the money came from. This much money spent towards, in a manner that benefits, someone who is not a liberty candidate is rather huge when your called the Campaign for Liberty.

ForLiberty-RonPaul
01-30-2010, 02:35 AM
Mage, by your logic it was the immature that gave us this free country in the first place.

LibertyMage
01-30-2010, 02:38 AM
Mage, It's not about politics. It's about principle.

I understand that. If you read the articles I posted (and wrote) above you would understand exactly how much I understand that. And yet, I have been able to network and coalition build on a grassroots level without having to sacrifice any of my principles. There is a way to "punish" groups without burning bridges.

The problem is that we don't know how to reconcile this problem as a group. Every time someone steps out of line we go into self destruct mode. This should be a giant red flag to everyone. If we don't figure out how to reconcile principles within a political structure, someone is going to figure out which button to press during the 2012 elections and the house is going to burn down with us - and our candidate - in it.

Endgame
01-30-2010, 02:46 AM
I've suspected for a long time that the LP was subverted and reduced to a meaningless debate club by some sort of organized conspiracy. I wonder if something similar has been done to C4L.

I thought, "finally, a movement for us to rally around and get something done". Maybe its just the difficulty of "herding cats", but I see something similar happening here almost overnight.

ForLiberty-RonPaul
01-30-2010, 02:46 AM
I understand that. If you read the articles I posted (and wrote) above you would understand exactly how much I understand that. And yet, I have been able to network and coalition build on a grassroots level without having to sacrifice any of my principles. There is a way to "punish" groups without burning bridges.

The problem is that we don't know how to reconcile this problem as a group. Every time someone steps out of line we go into self destruct mode. This should be a giant red flag to everyone. If we don't figure out how to reconcile principles within a political structure, someone is going to figure out which button to press during the 2012 elections and the house is going to burn down with us - and our candidate - in it.

so maybe the answer instead of "let's compromise" is "let's decentralize". All the successful projects during RP's '08 campaign were 100% decentralized. Yes, the C4L's centralization brought forth greater political influence, but at what price and what risk? And is that really the answer? With the invention of the internet, it becomes more and more difficult to justify organizations like these. The C4L became and brand, which it what got sold for $350k. If we are to truly work for Liberty, we must only use the idea of Liberty and not a brand.

ForLiberty-RonPaul
01-30-2010, 02:47 AM
I've suspected for a long time that the LP was subverted and reduced to a meaningless debate club by some sort of organized conspiracy. I wonder if something similar has been done to C4L.

I thought, "finally, a movement for us to rally around and get something done". Maybe its just the difficulty of "herding cats", but I see something similar happening here almost overnight.

you're not crazy, read about the CIA in the 60's 70's

Pauls' Revere
01-30-2010, 02:49 AM
My donations have stayed in Texas.

http://www.wheresgeorge.com/report.php?key=f7fdf97eeb20b898472724f3f94c095e7a3 0878a3f182efc&entcnt=2

I track my money to see where it goes.

LibertyMage
01-30-2010, 02:49 AM
Mage, by your logic it was the immature that gave us this free country in the first place.

I don't even understand what that is supposed to mean :P

LibertyMage
01-30-2010, 02:53 AM
so maybe the answer instead of "let's compromise" is "let's decentralize". All the successful projects during RP's '08 campaign were 100% decentralized. Yes, the C4L's centralization brought forth greater political influence, but at what price and what risk? And is that really the answer? With the invention of the internet, it becomes more and more difficult to justify organizations like these. The C4L became and brand, which it what got sold for $350k. If we are to truly work for Liberty, we must only use the idea of Liberty and not a brand.

Wrong on several cases! Branding is hugely important in politics...that shows a pretty major misunderstanding on your part. Also, as I said before, campaigns are not won over the internet. You can refuse to believe that all you like, but it is the true. Real campaigns need grassroots activists on the ground. C4L facilitates that. If you care to grow this movement you need to understand that.

LittleLightShining
01-30-2010, 02:53 AM
I understand that. If you read the articles I posted (and wrote) above you would understand exactly how much I understand that. And yet, I have been able to network and coalition build on a grassroots level without having to sacrifice any of my principles. There is a way to "punish" groups without burning bridges. Some bridges are better burnt.


The problem is that we don't know how to reconcile this problem as a group. Every time someone steps out of line we go into self destruct mode. This should be a giant red flag to everyone. If we don't figure out how to reconcile principles within a political structure, someone is going to figure out which button to press during the 2012 elections and the house is going to burn down with us - and our candidate - in it. Maybe because we're not a group. We're not a collective. We're individuals.

I don't consider criticism to be self-destruction. I consider criticism to be a valuable opportunity to look at a person, group, event, whatever with the blinders off. If that criticism comes to me am I gonna be defensive? Yeah, probably. But I don't ignore it like I have all the answers already. People who ignore criticism are scary. That doesn't mean all criticism is correct, but if you ignore it how can you tell?

Anyway, I don't doubt for a minute that you're doing great work. Believe me, I know how much it SUCKS to put so much time and energy making what you do count for something only to be spat upon by the people who are actually materially benefiting from your volunteer labor. You're defending and I'm leaving. A fractured movement isn't bad. A shattered mirror isn't just a shattered mirror. It's hundreds or thousands of tiny mirrors spread all over the place and still reflecting. A sandwich cut in 4 pieces is easier to share than a whole one....

I'm getting really tired...

ForLiberty-RonPaul
01-30-2010, 03:01 AM
Wrong on several cases! Branding is hugely important in politics...that shows a pretty major misunderstanding on your part. Also, as I said before, campaigns are not won over the internet. You can refuse to believe that all you like, but it is the true. Real campaigns need grassroots activists on the ground. C4L facilitates that. If you care to grow this movement you need to understand that.

ok, I understand you think a brand is very important. But as I said, I believe it has become much less important. More and more people are wanting ideas, not pictures and slogans. I also believe that "politics" is not a separate beast with it's own set of rules. Politics is simply people, and if you can get people to think differently the rules change. The campaign for liberty has raged since long before 1776, and our Campaign for Liberty will be a short wink in the grand scheme. I believe a big reason why Liberty has diminshed in this country is because Liberty minded candidates "play by the rules" instead of thinking outside the box. Complete separation and independence were very foreign, strange, and frightening ideas to John Adams, and yet. He changed.

America must change and America's politics will change.

j6p
01-30-2010, 10:16 AM
LibertyMage: I'm from Maryland and i joined the campign for liberty facebook group and i thought about joing up with C4L. But i'm not sure now because you seem to be making an issue of people who donated money and now pulling support away from C4L. If people arent happy with a group, they have every right to stop donating, until they have there act together at headquarters. I think it would work out better if people supported each individual, instead of having a PAC witch have these issues.

Meiun
01-30-2010, 10:35 AM
I don't even understand what that is supposed to mean :P

I think he meant "immaturity", and he'd be right.

As to everything else in this thread:

Ditto! (except you LibertyMage) :)

sorry, these forums were around before I became involved in the Ron Paul movement and have my allegiance. C$L has shown itself as nothing but an engine for profitting off of those of us who are liberty-minded.

MsDoodahs
01-30-2010, 10:44 AM
C$L has shown itself as nothing but an engine for profitting off of those of us who are liberty-minded.

Agreed.

pcosmar
01-30-2010, 11:01 AM
When someone asks another person to think outside of them self for a moment to consider the consequences of their actions, is that arrogance? Should we not step back at times and consider if what we are doing is hurting or helping us?

Wait a friggin' minute.
You are in denial. (no not the river)
Was the C4L logo/brand used ?

Was this an advertisement/Promotion ?

Was it a promotion for a Pro-War, Anti Liberty Candidate?

Do the people working for C4L still have their jobs?

I don't care who paid for it. I care little about a pointless survey. It should have never happened.
Folks that had supported this effort in the past have been screwed, and are rightly angry.

Original_Intent
01-30-2010, 11:05 AM
This is obviously the fault of the grassroots. If we had donated more to the C4L, they would not have been forced to take the money to promote a newcon warmonger.

Romulus
01-30-2010, 11:11 AM
Also, as I said before, campaigns are not won over the internet. .

Who do you think mobilized action to get Medina in last nights debate? Winning is not one dimensional as you seem to see it.

Meiun
01-30-2010, 11:14 AM
This is obviously the fault of the grassroots. If we had donated more to the C4L, they would not have been forced to take the money to promote a newcon warmonger.

lol. QFT!

llepard
01-30-2010, 11:25 AM
Everyone has their own definition of who is a "true believer" in a movement and who is not. Ideological purity is great, but it does not win elections. Having said that I am with those on this thread that say that there are certain non-negotiable positions in this movement.

To me they are:

!. Freedom, in markets and individual action. (no Patriot Act.) Less government.

2. Honest money, competing currencies, a natural gold standard, end the fed.

3. No empire, anti-war (unless it is a just war) and self defense only.

These are absolutely non negotiable to me and probably to 95% of all Ron Paul patriots.

If other so called libertarians or freedom candidates or tea baggers want to support the first two of these and skip the third then they are part right, and I will support that part, but unless they believe in 3 they are not part of this movement as I define it. I am deeply disappointed in the CFL's actions and think they were clearly wrong. Compromise on other issues, maybe, compromise on anti war. NEVER.

LibertyEagle
01-30-2010, 11:32 AM
I'm in, llepard. We should never compromise on those issues.

LittleLightShining
01-30-2010, 11:36 AM
Everyone has their own definition of who is a "true believer" in a movement and who is not. Ideological purity is great, but it does not win elections. Having said that I am with those on this thread that say that there are certain non-negotiable positions in this movement.

To me they are:

!. Freedom, in markets and individual action. (no Patriot Act.) Less government.

2. Honest money, competing currencies, a natural gold standard, end the fed.

3. No empire, anti-war (unless it is a just war) and self defense only.

These are absolutely non negotiable to me and probably to 95% of all Ron Paul patriots.

If other so called libertarians or freedom candidates or tea baggers want to support the first two of these and skip the third then they are part right, and I will support that part, but unless they believe in 3 they are not part of this movement as I define it. I am deeply disappointed in the CFL's actions and think they were clearly wrong. Compromise on other issues, maybe, compromise on anti war. NEVER.

Thank you!

Endgame
01-30-2010, 11:42 AM
I thought C4L was a step beyond the failed political party model, but maybe it really wasn't. Maybe it was still too centralized. If C4L goes under because of this, we can't let it give us pause for a second. We need to keep proliferating with new organizations, "too many to name" as the MIAC report said.

New ones that have rapidly grown like YAL, Oath Keepers, FSP, old ones like CATO, GOA and JPFO, small radical ones like Free Keene (EVERY college town needs one), media sites like Reason and (I hate to admit it) LRC, whatever. We need MOAR of all of this.

Meiun
01-30-2010, 12:00 PM
I think we need to do our own vetting, screw the centralizing organizations. Power is in the hands of those who claim it. We are as much a part of the political process as we empower ourselves to be.

We come here to associate with like-minded individuals. Given the nature of the group I see NO problem with supporting and then un-supporting as we see fit.

A candidate who carries the tenets of the freedom movement can count on my support both financially and timely. I will come here to share with you my convictions and you will do the same on your end.

FREEDOM needs no greater measure than that which we individually can give. To become part of the "cult of personality" crowd that sees a "brand" or marketing/polling as the "be-all, end-all" of politics is to show a misunderstanding of these tenets. (and frankly is a lie of the devil!)

YouTube - Bill Hicks on Marketing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDW_Hj2K0wo)

Brian4Liberty
01-30-2010, 12:35 PM
The "War" issue by far is the #1 issue for almost every "Ron Paul" supporters and any compromise on it is unacceptable.

One of the best ways to convince standard GOPers on the wars is to focus on the fiscal aspect. "I'm a fiscal conservative and it costs too much!"

I am not against war. I can compromise.

I am just against: Spending taxpayer money on undeclared/unjustified wars or nation building. Killing innocent people. Destroying innocent people's property. Using our troops to police and oppress people. Just don't do any of those things. ;)

dean.engelhardt
01-30-2010, 12:36 PM
I would rather stand by principle than with CFL. CFL sold its soul for a few neo-con bucks. llepards has it right.

LibertyMage
01-30-2010, 02:02 PM
Some bridges are better burnt.

Maybe because we're not a group. We're not a collective. We're individuals.

I don't consider criticism to be self-destruction. I consider criticism to be a valuable opportunity to look at a person, group, event, whatever with the blinders off. If that criticism comes to me am I gonna be defensive? Yeah, probably. But I don't ignore it like I have all the answers already. People who ignore criticism are scary. That doesn't mean all criticism is correct, but if you ignore it how can you tell?

Anyway, I don't doubt for a minute that you're doing great work. Believe me, I know how much it SUCKS to put so much time and energy making what you do count for something only to be spat upon by the people who are actually materially benefiting from your volunteer labor. You're defending and I'm leaving. A fractured movement isn't bad. A shattered mirror isn't just a shattered mirror. It's hundreds or thousands of tiny mirrors spread all over the place and still reflecting. A sandwich cut in 4 pieces is easier to share than a whole one....

I'm getting really tired...

This has gone way beyond criticism. I have seen people call for the abolishment of the C4L, mass firings, resignation and a mass exodus from the organization. And yet, nobody was willing to organize a petition to ask for change within the group.


LibertyMage: I'm from Maryland and i joined the campign for liberty facebook group and i thought about joing up with C4L. But i'm not sure now because you seem to be making an issue of people who donated money and now pulling support away from C4L. If people arent happy with a group, they have every right to stop donating, until they have there act together at headquarters. I think it would work out better if people supported each individual, instead of having a PAC witch have these issues.

I have not made an issue about people stopping their personal financial support - not even once. What I made an issue of is the people calling for abolishment of the C4L, mass firings, resignation, a mass exodus from the organization, etc. That is not only not productive, it is counter-productive.


Who do you think mobilized action to get Medina in last nights debate? Winning is not one dimensional as you seem to see it.

I have never said online organization was bad or unnecessary. I actually said in this very thread that online organization is very beneficial if you go back and read it. The point I am trying to make, which is the point everyone seems to ignore, is that growth beyond these forums is utterly and absolutely necessary. Activism on the ground is necessary. Media work is necessary. Campaign work is necessary. This is what the Campaign for Liberty helps people get involved in. and much of what you are doing right now is hurting those initiatives.

ronpaulhawaii
01-30-2010, 02:13 PM
This has gone way beyond criticism. I have seen people call for the abolishment of the C4L, mass firings, resignation and a mass exodus from the organization. And yet, nobody was willing to organize a petition to ask for change within the group.



I have not made an issue about people stopping their personal financial support - not even once. What I made an issue of is the people calling for abolishment of the C4L, mass firings, resignation, a mass exodus from the organization, etc. That is not only not productive, it is counter-productive.



I have never said online organization was bad or unnecessary. I actually said in this very thread that online organization is very beneficial if you go back and read it. The point I am trying to make, which is the point everyone seems to ignore, is that growth beyond these forums is utterly and absolutely necessary. Activism on the ground is necessary. Media work is necessary. Campaign work is necessary. This is what the Campaign for Liberty helps people get involved in. and much of what you are doing right now is hurting those initiatives.

You keep trying to blame the grassroots for a boneheaded move by HQ. You are doing so in the same condescending tone that turns many off to CfL "leadership." You are making it seem like a few vocally outraged members are representative of the entire r3VOLution. You are trying to justify the hijacking of my actual boots on the ground work to support a candidate that has no business being promoted by the organization people like me helped build. You are ignoring that the festering wounds I keep referring to are the very reason CfL is only a shadow of what it could be.

Just stop with the preaching, with the obfuscating, with the condescending, and with trying to polish a turd. Admit that this was a boneheaded move, apologize for having the gall to try to defend it, and then perhaps, if you learn a little humility, people will start paying attention to any relevant points you raise.

Thanks

Daamien
01-30-2010, 02:41 PM
I'm so happy that you decided to target me in your original post LibertyMage. Yes, I successfully deleted my membership.

I was a Local Coordinator in Connecticut for over a year. I paid my dues, completed all of the Local Coordinator training, got myself involved in local politics such as attending town committee meetings for each political party, started to meet other like-minded liberty supporters through meetup groups and even arranged a C4L meeting in my town, got involved directly with the Schiff for Senate campaign, started contacting my Representative and Senators regarding issues such as HR 1207, and remained very active online. Yes, I even wore a Campaign for Liberty shirt around town that featured a Gadsden Flag.

I have no idea how my State and County Coordinators got their positions, but they were completely inactive during my tenure despite my attempts to contact them. In fact, my County Coordinator was a 15-year old. I nominated myself as Regional Coordinator for my Congressional District over 8 months ago and never heard back from anyone. I thought that in addition to my 23 years of experience in the region, I could utilize skills I learned working in the financial services / investment banking industry on Wall Street for four years. Furthermore, while attending university in Washington, DC I interned for the White House Correspondence Department for over a year and had contacts on Capitol Hill. These work and educational experiences provided me with valuable insight that could be greater leveraged in the role of District/Regional Coordinator in terms of sharing my understanding the political and campaigning process as well as my first-hand look at the government-market relationship and its effect on the economy. Despite never hearing back from anyone I remained active and continued my activities.

Meanwhile, I became critical of C4L's National office and activities. I was constantly being sent mailers that utilized scare tactics such as referring to me as a potential "slave" to the "New World Order" while never addressing specific legislation with citations. These mailers not only were wasteful and disturbingly politicized, they also constantly begged me for more money. I started to wonder, why does the National office need more money for a grassroots organization? It seemed counter-intuitive. Then I began to see that all power was consolidated within the national office and hand-selected State Coordinators (mine being inactive) through a highly centralized system that disseminated very little authority and communication to the Local Coordinators. I disliked and distrusted this system and began to express my frustration on the C4L forums (easily documented) and sending mail directly to the C4L National office, which was ignored.

The political ad in Colorado that featured a neoconservative was the straw that broke the camel's back in terms of me rejecting the group that I once championed. I realized that my association with the C4L was not only being taken for granted by C4L's inept and irresponsible leadership, but that it wasn't necessary to continue supporting liberty. Therefore, I decided to leave the organization and delete my account as a protest until John Tate resigns and greater transparency is brought to the organization. I will do just fine without them, but I don't know if they will do just fine without people like me. Sure, try to call me out on giving up too easily, but the group gave up on its principles and the grassroots first.

Vessol
01-30-2010, 02:48 PM
Think about it like this for a second.

What if the CFL ran an ad supporting a candidate whom was non-interventionist and against empire building, but supported the Federal Reserve and was for the bailouts.

There would be calls for blood pretty much, way more then the current fiasco we have now.

LittleLightShining
01-30-2010, 02:54 PM
Think about it like this for a second.

What if the CFL ran an ad supporting a candidate whom was non-interventionist and against empire building, but supported the Federal Reserve and was for the bailouts.

There would be calls for blood pretty much, way more then the current fiasco we have now.
That wouldn't happen because Rothfeld has C4L pointed at the GOP.

MsDoodahs
01-30-2010, 02:57 PM
I'm so happy that you decided to target me in your original post LibertyMage. Yes, I successfully deleted my membership.

I was a Local Coordinator in Connecticut for over a year. I paid my dues, completed all of the Local Coordinator training, got myself involved in local politics such as attending town committee meetings for each political party, started to meet other like-minded liberty supporters through meetup groups and even arranged a C4L meeting in my town, got involved directly with the Schiff for Senate campaign, started contacting my Representative and Senators regarding issues such as HR 1207, and remained very active online. Yes, I even wore a Campaign for Liberty shirt around town that featured a Gadsden Flag.

I have no idea how my State and County Coordinators got their positions, but they were completely inactive during my tenure despite my attempts to contact them. In fact, my County Coordinator was a 15-year old. I nominated myself as Regional Coordinator for my Congressional District over 8 months ago and never heard back from anyone. I thought that in addition to my 23 years of experience in the region, I could utilize skills I learned working in the financial services / investment banking industry on Wall Street for four years. Furthermore, while attending university in Washington, DC I interned for the White House Correspondence Department for over a year and had contacts on Capitol Hill. These work and educational experiences provided me with valuable insight that could be greater leveraged in the role of District/Regional Coordinator in terms of sharing my understanding the political and campaigning process as well as my first-hand look at the government-market relationship and its effect on the economy. Despite never hearing back from anyone I remained active and continued my activities.

Meanwhile, I became critical of C4L's National office and activities. I was constantly being sent mailers that utilized scare tactics such as referring to me as a potential "slave" to the "New World Order" while never addressing specific legislation with citations. These mailers not only were wasteful and disturbingly politicized, they also constantly begged me for more money. I started to wonder, why does the National office need more money for a grassroots organization? It seemed counter-intuitive. Then I began to see that all power was consolidated within the national office and hand-selected State Coordinators (mine being inactive) through a highly centralized system that disseminated very little authority and communication to the Local Coordinators. I disliked and distrusted this system and began to express my frustration on the C4L forums (easily documented) and sending mail directly to the C4L National office, which was ignored.

The political ad in Colorado that featured a neoconservative was the straw that broke the camel's back in terms of me rejecting the group that I once championed. I realized that my association with the C4L was not only being taken for granted by C4L's inept and irresponsible leadership, but that it wasn't necessary to continue supporting liberty. Therefore, I decided to leave the organization and delete my account as a protest until John Tate resigns and greater transparency is brought to the organization. I will do just fine without them, but I don't know if they will do just fine without people like me. Sure, try to call me out on giving up too easily, but the group gave up on its principles and the grassroots first.

This is the kind of treatment of the grassroots that causes me to doubt that we'll EVER hear anything more about the Buck ad debacle out of CFL, no matter how much we "demand" truth and transparency.

jmdrake
01-30-2010, 04:24 PM
A call for reflection.

I'm certainly not about to throw everyone who is involved or works for the C4L under the bus, however mistakes were made and there has to be accountability.

This was a big ticket mistake. I don't care where the money came from. This much money spent towards, in a manner that benefits, someone who is not a liberty candidate is rather huge when your called the Campaign for Liberty.

Thank you! A voice of reason!

LibertyMage: I agree with you that we shouldn't self destruct. That said your original post comes off as overly critical. Folks are mad and have a right to be. This movement is made up of people who rejected the politics of compromise and now feel compromised. Calling people out for criticism like you did is not helpful in this situation. It's like throwing water on a grease fire. All that does is make it spread.

I've been thinking about this a lot over the past few days. I haven't said everything I've thought because I don't want to make the situation worse. Those of us who believe in God need to take the time to truly reflect and pray before we post.

I will say this. While I think what happened could have been handled better, I understand why it happened. As a movement we need to be principled and we need to be relevant. Sometimes balancing those two things can be tough. And sometimes our own membership makes this difficult. At one of our meetups in 2008 (after Ron Paul had dropped out, but before the election), we let a republican candidate for congress speak. He didn't really have a prayer of winning. I don't know what his stand was on the wars because that wasn't on his website and I never asked. But he had read Ron Paul's book "Revolution Manefesto" and I saw him quote from it when talking to a young republican that was not part of the Ron Paul movement. Anyway I got an email back from one of our members asking "Why did you let that republican speak at our meeting". On the flipside I've seen someone quit the meetup and say they left because they "were not a liberal democrat". And some zionist left because he was angry at Ron Paul for being critical of Israel's attack on Gaza. So there's no pleasing everybody.

I agree with Gunny that the "hate crimes" aspect of this is troubling. I don't know if the C4L knew that's why the money was being donated. (And yes. At this point I'll take the "official story" of how the ad got funded at face value. If I lose some "conspiracy theorist" points over this so be it. :D) Anything that gives the appearance of supporting hate crimes laws not only hurts us internally with our own membership, but could be potentially used against us later by those who'd like to paint the C4L as "too liberal".

Anyway, I'm not going anywhere. We can get through this.

pacelli
01-30-2010, 04:30 PM
Then I began to see that all power was consolidated within the national office and hand-selected State Coordinators (mine being inactive) through a highly centralized system that disseminated very little authority and communication to the Local Coordinators.

Thanks for blowing the whistle.