How to Delete your C4L membership:

[UtahApocalypse]

When logged in there is a "settings" area for your account. In that page is a small text "Do you want to delete your campaign for liberty account? click this link"


Your account has been removed and you are logged out.

[ForLiberty-RonPaul]

done

[JK/SEA]

Done.

Will they still call you for money?

[__27__]

Done. It'd be interesting to see the stats on how membership numbers changed during these events.

[LittleLightShining]

I'm done, too. They won't miss me :P

[disorderlyvision]

done

and here is an alternate method


Allison from HQ has been in the chat room. I inquired how to remove myself from C4L:

Send Allison an e-mail at allison@campaignforliberty.com

include in the e-mail:

Log-in name
Real Name
location
e-mail address

and most importantly, let them know why you are leaving.

Allison will be able to remove you from you roster, hopefully this will also put an end to all the money pandering coming from them as well.

[Daamien]

Done.

[catdd]

au voir

[Daamien]

Unfortunately when you delete your account it deletes all of your posts and replies as well.

[LittleLightShining]

Unfortunately when you delete your account it deletes all of your posts and replies as well.

Oh, crap. I wish I would have realized that. I could have cut and pasted my blog posts about getting Peter Welch to co-sponsor 1207 :(

[Dianne]

done

[fedup100]

Done and with words such as "treasonous" and "undoing"

I predict Paul will do what he always does, NOTHING!

[JoshLowry]

Done and with words such as "treasonous" and "undoing"

I predict Paul will do what he always does, NOTHING!

Ron Paul has done more with his pinky finger than you have done in waking up people to the message of liberty and peace.

[brandon]

Deleted my account, but I didn't delete my passion for liberty and desire to continue working with freedom lovers on other projects, including Ron Paul 2012.

[rancher89]

y'all shoulda read my last post on the C4L forum before you left....heheh:D

[pacelli]

Done and with words such as "treasonous" and "undoing"

I predict Paul will do what he always does, NOTHING!

Unfortunately I suspect that Ron still knows nothing about it.

[disorderlyvision]

deleted my account, but i didn't delete my passion for liberty and desire to continue working with freedom lovers on other projects, including ron paul 2012.

+350,000

[UtahApocalypse]

y'all shoulda read my last post on the C4L forum before you left....heheh:D

Wish that we could still see the forums, oh well. the blog entry has over 40 responses and not a single one positive

[torchbearer]

15 years of libertarian political action and nothing changes-
self-destruct with purity destroying the good.
make your club as small as you can- the parties in charge have given a sigh of relief.

[LibertyEagle]

Done and with words such as "treasonous" and "undoing"

I predict Paul will do what he always does, NOTHING!

That is not fair at all! How on earth could you even say such a thing?!!

[MsDoodahs]

I'd rather stand on principles, even if it means you aren't standing beside me, Torch.

[FrankRep]

The Libertarian purists have effectively killed themselves.

[LibertyEagle]

How about formulating a response to Mr. Tate?

[AuH20]

15 years of libertarian political action and nothing changes-
self-destruct with purity destroying the good.
Make your club as small as you can- the parties in charge have given a sigh of relief.

qft

[brandon]

The Libertarian purists have effectively killed themselves.

And the pragmatists have done any better?

[torchbearer]

I'd rather stand on principles, even if it means you aren't standing beside me, Torch.

that is fine.
i'm busy building bridges, others are busy tearing them down.
you will never change anything by yourself- and your children will bear the burden of your choices.
how easy for people to forget the success of HR1207- a campaign led by the group you condemn. we got all of our reps and one of our senators in this state- the effort was led here by c4l.
we had nothing like this before and got nothing done.
now we are back to getting nothing done. self-destruct.
In a sadistic way- the people in this thread make me laugh out loud.
history repeats. again.

[AuH20]

And the pragmatists have done any better?


they're on the verge of securing a senate seat

[Andrew-Austin]

Some people seem to really believe the idea that reneging on core principles can bring about meaningful change in politics. A little evidence for this idea would be appreciated. Its funny that Mr. Ron Paul has never compromised his principles (that I am aware of), and he has clearly brought us the most change, yet some here still scorn this strategy in others.

I hope C4L can be taught a lesson so it can be more like its founder.

[UtahApocalypse]

I wonder how many people will leave? i already know that several coordinators have even bailed out.

[Matthew Zak]

that is fine.
i'm busy building bridges, others are busy tearing them down.
you will never change anything by yourself- and your children will bear the burden of your choices.
how easy for people to forget the success of HR1207- a campaign led by the group you condemn. we got all of our reps and one of our senators in this state- the effort was led here by c4l.
we had nothing like this before and got nothing done.
now we are back to getting nothing done. self-destruct.
In a sadistic way- the people in this thread make me laugh out loud.
history repeats. again.

This is making me sad. I can't believe how quickly people are burning these bridges. Is it an ego thing? Impatience? How has anyone been wronged? How has the C4L proven it's self as an enemy? I see a lot of rhetoric, with little understanding or detail. Certain people are jumping ship, and riling up others to do the same. I don't want to drink that koolaid, and it breaks my heart that so many people, without fully understanding the situation are guzzling that koolaid like it's going to cure cancer.

Everyone needs to calm/slow the F down.

[disorderlyvision]

that is fine.
i'm busy building bridges, others are busy tearing them down.
you will never change anything by yourself- and your children will bear the burden of your choices.
how easy for people to forget the success of HR1207- a campaign led by the group you condemn. we got all of our reps and one of our senators in this state- the effort was led here by c4l.
we had nothing like this before and got nothing done.
now we are back to getting nothing done. self-destruct.
In a sadistic way- the people in this thread make me laugh out loud.
history repeats. again.

im sure action items will still get posted on this board, and people can still call their reps on things like 1207. Im not going to support them as an organization, that doesn't mean we cant work together on certain issues. As Brandonyates said, he cancelled membership, but did not cancel his desire to be an activists

[brandon]

they're on the verge of securing a senate seat

And I have donated $450 to Rand. He's pragmatic but remains philosophically pure enough that most 'libertarian purists" will still support him. You don't hear him saying we need to stay the course in the middle east for 10 more years.

[brandon]

This is making me sad. I can't believe how quickly people are burning these bridges. Is it an ego thing? Impatience? How has anyone been wronged? How has the C4L proven it's self as an enemy? I see a lot of rhetoric, with little understanding or detail. Certain people are jumping ship, and riling up others to do the same. I don't want to drink that koolaid, and it breaks my heart that so many people, without fully understanding the situation are guzzling that koolaid like it's going to cure cancer.

Everyone needs to calm/slow the F down.

Some of us may be overreacting. Personally I was mad as all hell at the possibility that MY donation money went to a neocon. If the CFL came out with this statement earlier, or even announced it ahead of time, they could have cut off a lot of anger.

It's still not acceptable though. Even if they didn't use our money, they are using the political capital our money helped them acquire.

[torchbearer]

Some people seem to really believe the idea that reneging on core principles can bring about meaningful change in politics. A little evidence for this idea would be appreciated. Its funny that Mr. Ron Paul has never compromised his principles (that I am aware of), and he has clearly brought us the most change, yet some here still scorn this strategy in others.

we have many different groups working together in louisiana. c4l, tea party, 9/12, LP, CP, local committees of safety, and other indies. none of these group agree 100% on principles- but all of them want liberty.
together we are a force that creates positive change, seperate, we are ineffective and weak.
Ron Paul brought all these people together.

We will do what we can in Louisiana.

[MRoCkEd]

I'm not deleting mine. C4L serves a very good purpose. I won't be donating unless they become more transparent though.

[fedup100]

This is making me sad. I can't believe how quickly people are burning these bridges. Is it an ego thing? Impatience? How has anyone been wronged? How has the C4L proven it's self as an enemy? I see a lot of rhetoric, with little understanding or detail. Certain people are jumping ship, and riling up others to do the same. I don't want to drink that koolaid, and it breaks my heart that so many people, without fully understanding the situation are guzzling that koolaid like it's going to cure cancer.

Everyone needs to calm/slow the F down.

What part of funneling $350k to a neocon war hawk do you not understand, I clearly understand it and the detail is evident.

[torchbearer]

This is making me sad. I can't believe how quickly people are burning these bridges. Is it an ego thing? Impatience? How has anyone been wronged? How has the C4L proven it's self as an enemy? I see a lot of rhetoric, with little understanding or detail. Certain people are jumping ship, and riling up others to do the same. I don't want to drink that koolaid, and it breaks my heart that so many people, without fully understanding the situation are guzzling that koolaid like it's going to cure cancer.

Everyone needs to calm/slow the F down.

i can witness to what i've seen in the LP. most of it starts with the egos of a few loud activist- sometimes just one.
then it goes group think from there.

you can make a case against any person, even ron paul, that they aren't 100% principled 100% of the time.
hell they even had some retard calling Ron a traitor on this forum. This natural progression to attacking Ron Paul's campaign for liberty is not a surprise at all.
some of those contributing to it are the same.

[LittleLightShining]

that is fine.
i'm busy building bridges, others are busy tearing them down.
you will never change anything by yourself- and your children will bear the burden of your choices.
how easy for people to forget the success of HR1207- a campaign led by the group you condemn. we got all of our reps and one of our senators in this state- the effort was led here by c4l.
we had nothing like this before and got nothing done.
now we are back to getting nothing done. self-destruct.
In a sadistic way- the people in this thread make me laugh out loud.
history repeats. again.HR 1207 was led by the people on the ground getting the petitions and educating people. National helped coordinate delivery but they did not lead the charge. BTW we got our whole delegation on board here in little old, forgotten and ignored VT. Why? Because we have a committed group of activists here.

You may be getting nothing done where you are but that's not the case here. I don't need some coordinator title to keep doing what I'm doing. I don't even need to tell YOU what I'm doing here-- but I will tell you that what I am working on right now is going to blow a hole in VT politics like has never been seen here before.

I'll build my bridges, you build yours. I'd rather my bridge lead me to something other than a compromised money pit.

[KAYA]

we have many different groups working together in louisiana. c4l, tea party, 9/12, LP, CP, local committees of safety, and other indies. none of these group agree 100% on principles- but all of them want liberty.
together we are a force that creates positive change, seperate, we are ineffective and weak.
Ron Paul brought all these people together.

We will do what we can in Louisiana.

It amazes me how many on this board can be so passionate about tearing others apart rather than building coalitions.

[tangent4ronpaul]

Bump

[WaltM]

I doubt that deletes you from the physical mailing list or phone list.

That's probably just the online-membership.

(Just remember, removing yourself from their contacts could result in freedom from information and conservation of their funds donated by good people)

[Daamien]

On the plus side, I hope that deleting my membership will result in no more wasteful mailers from Tate that use fear tactics, don't cite facts, and constantly beg for more money.

[tangent4ronpaul]

E-mail Ron Paul with your bitches - best way to get this resolved.

[edit-rph - sorry Tangent, lets not go there, please]

-t

[ctiger2]

I wonder how many people will leave? i already know that several coordinators have even bailed out.

$350K well spent if their intention was to disrupt the liberty movement.

[tangent4ronpaul]

C4L =

ZIG HEIL!
ZIG HEIL!
ZIG HEIL!

Talk about fifth columnist activity - The enemy has taken control of what should be our major front. This is nothing short of a disgrace!

-t

[UtahApocalypse]

$350K well spent if their intention was to disrupt the liberty movement.

I honestly at this point think its one of two things....

The group was trying to use C4L to do the ad knowing it would cause a response.

A) Mr. Tate was oblivious to this and by not fact checking the Candidate made the naive and grave mistake of supporting a neocon. If this is the case he should resign immediately due to incompetence.

b) Mr. Tate is part of the plan to rip the liberty movement apart. In that case he needs to be pushed out of C4L immediately.

[LittleLightShining]

I honestly at this point think its one of two things....

The group was trying to use C4L to do the ad knowing it would cause a response.

A) Mr. Tate was oblivious to this and by not fact checking the Candidate made the naive and grave mistake of supporting a neocon. If this is the case he should resign immediately due to incompetence.

b) Mr. Tate is part of the plan to rip the liberty movement apart. In that case he needs to be pushed out of C4L immediately.

http://www.eddieandlid.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10062/applause.gif

[Raul08]

I'm sorry but I read the response and I see the problem.

They didn't fact check...simple as that. No reason to jump ship over one mess up though.

Has it ever occured to people that even Libertarians are human being and prone to making errors. Just because there is a screw up does not mean we should bail out.
If everyone did this and acted like this all the time, there would be no progress at all in anything, because it would constantly be derailed or restarted.

[ForLiberty-RonPaul]

I'm sorry but I read the response and I see the problem.

They didn't fact check...simple as that. No reason to jump ship over one mess up though.

Has it ever occured to people that even Libertarians are human being and prone to making errors. Just because there is a screw up does not mean we should bail out.
If everyone did this and acted like this all the time, there would be no progress at all in anything, because it would constantly be derailed or restarted.

uhh, it's not like they dropped a carton of milk. This was $350,000. It was taking the C4L logo and attaching it to a pro-war candidate.

[Badger Paul]

Look, it's real simple. You don't like what the national CFL did in this case or the way they do business, don't join or contribute. Channel your activities in another direction. Stay loyal to your state chapter.

You have more options than just being upset and nothing any national group does or doesn't do should squelch the cause of liberty and freedom which is bigger than all of us.

So long as we stay as one community (which means we have no reason to attack each other) we'll be fine regardless what happens or what decisions are made in far away places.

If we say we are decentralists, we need to act like it.

[Raul08]

Look, it's real simple. You don't like what the national CFL did in this case or the way they do business, don't join or contribute. Channel your activities in another direction. Stay loyal to your state chapter.

You have more options than just being upset and nothing any national group does or doesn't do should squelch the cause of liberty and freedom which is bigger than all of us.

So long as we stay as one community (which means we have no reason to attack each other) we'll be fine regardless what happens or what decisions are made in far away places.

If we say we are decentralists, we need to act like it.

This too.

[libertarian4321]

I haven't deleted my CFL account yet, but they for damned sure aren't going to get a penny from me until they can show that they are responsible with the money.

I don't need the CFL to donate directly to good candidates like Debra Medina, Rand Paul or myself :)

[Taras]

I'm out. Purist? Everyone has a line they won't cross. This is mine.

[LibertyMage]

I'd rather stand on principles, even if it means you aren't standing beside me, Torch.

YouTube - Ron Paul's Incumbent Protection Plan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmJqSLNy8ms)


There is a limit to how much independence you can get away with.

Ron Paul - Unprincipled Sellout

[Imperial]

And I have donated $450 to Rand. He's pragmatic but remains philosophically pure enough that most 'libertarian purists" will still support him. You don't hear him saying we need to stay the course in the middle east for 10 more years.

First, Afghanistan =/= all of the Middle East. I could easily see someone supporting pulling out of bases all over the world but leaving them in the last major hotspot of Afghanistan.

I don't think Rand has really stayed that pure myself. He has postured himself to be pro-Afghanistan and pro-GITMO. I think if we are making a litmus test like this, we should apply it consistently.

Or maybe we should turn on Ron Paul. After all, the DOMA is not very libertarian or constitutional. Earmarking has become petulantly widespread (compared to say before the 1960s) and is pretty easy to be manipulated by legislators seeking something to boost their electoral chances (talk about welfare for legislators!). oh, and Ron Paul wouldn't agree to a debate against his credible opponent in 08 for Congress, yet we all complained when Paul didn't make it in the Presidential debates.

You guys can all selectively pick who you want to support and back up. Me, I'll campaign for Ron Paul, Debra Medina, Peter Schiff, Rand Paul, Adam Kokesh, and anybody else who recognizes it is time to open up the political discussion to liberty. And, I'll use the most effective tools to collaborate with fellow activists on a national scale.

The biggest political tool we have now, that still has the capability for our input, is the CFL. It is actually starting to get national attention with the Audit the Fed movement. We had money in place to change things and the infrastructure starting to flesh out to be able to actually impact the Hill. The surveys, standard push-polling for interests to point out our views, had the potential to get politicians to vote our way.

Sure, the CFL is not out of the water yet. But running away absolutely gives you ZERO political leverage. You sacrificed yourself as an asset if you already ran away.

BTW, why didn't someone just make a protest page and get signatures saying if the policy doesn't substantially change we will pull out? It is much better than throwing a tantrum and running away from the biggest way to influence politicians on the hill.

[LittleLightShining]

Sure, the CFL is not out of the water yet. But running away absolutely gives you ZERO political leverage. You sacrificed yourself as an asset if you already ran away.

BTW, why didn't someone just make a protest page and get signatures saying if the policy doesn't substantially change we will pull out? It is much better than throwing a tantrum and running away from the biggest way to influence politicians on the hill.No, it may not give me leverage but it gives me freedom. I think all this being a part of a big group crap is overrated. The bigger the group the easier it is to infiltrate.

[fj45lvr]

Unfortunately I suspect that Ron still knows nothing about it.


I would bet that if Ron did something that it wouldn't be "public" anyhow. So what the hell do the arm-chair quarterbacks know??

Ron doesn't want a dictatorship.

[LibertyMage]

BTW, why didn't someone just make a protest page and get signatures saying if the policy doesn't substantially change we will pull out? It is much better than throwing a tantrum and running away from the biggest way to influence politicians on the hill.

That is a great idea! Someone should volunteer for that! Oh, wait...

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=2516018#post2516018


I said it before and I will say it again - this isn't productive. If you are really concerned about this issue, here is what you need to do:

Organize a resolution by:

1. Someone writing a resolution
2. Having people print it, sign it and mail it to someone.
3. Find a way to put it in the hands of John Tate.

If everyone here is sincere about pressing this issue, then you need to organize this. I have contacts within the national C4L and I would be willing to try to speak with John personally and deliver the signatures to him next month at CPAC.

You are correct - everyone's contribution does count. However, if you aren't "in the trenches" the only thing you all have accomplished so far is discouraging the people who are. If you are sincere about pushing this issue send me a message and I will volunteer to make items 2 and 3 happen.

[LittleLightShining]

I would bet that if Ron did something that it wouldn't be "public" anyhow. So what the hell do the arm-chair quarterbacks know??

Ron doesn't want a dictatorship.

On the one hand I would love it if he would come out swinging and fire the 3 stooges but at the same time, I don't want him anywhere near this debacle.

[Taras]

This is my protest petition-signing off on C4L. It sends a strong unequivocal immediate message, it doesn't mean they can't win my support back, but they will have to earn it. Better quick and decisive than hanging around snorting 'hopium'. It also sends a message to potential hijackers who think that maybe nobody will notice as they slither in under the door.

[fj45lvr]

The surveys, standard push-polling for interests to point out our views, had the potential to get politicians to vote our way.

.

Who really believes a survey is going to "get politicians to vote our way"???

This is crazy....to believe that the republic is going to solely depend on these politicians to be goaded into voting.

I think we want to have people that vote a certain way because they hold the same truths to be evident (not because of some cheesy polling where they can say one thing and do the exact opposite when it comes down to it).

The polling is a huge wast of funds (and Liberty movement doesn't have much funds compared to the establishment/socialists/corporatists).

Invest money into people that you know are behind liberty instead of "gimmicks" that won't do anything to "buy" favors like bribes. Instead of trying to persuade the enemy you conquer the enemy. They are not there because they are just innocently "mis-guided"...they are bought pawns (pretending as double agents so that when the time comes they are treasonous.....voting for half the bills in DC is treason (no other way around it).

[Imperial]

No, it may not give me leverage but it gives me freedom. I think all this being a part of a big group crap is overrated. The bigger the group the easier it is to infiltrate.

Who said you have lost your freedom? You are free to leave CFL- I am simply arguing it is an extremely unwise decision to do so. But you could stay with CFL without sacrificing your freedom and not paying anything until they do things right.

It would have been far wiser for us, the actual members of CFL, to lobby the leadership and force a change rather than leaving relatively abruptly. The latter strategy isn't freedom- that's illogical.

[Imperial]

Who really believes a survey is going to "get politicians to vote our way"???

This is crazy....to believe that the republic is going to solely depend on these politicians to be goaded into voting.

I think we want to have people that vote a certain way because they hold the same truths to be evident (not because of some cheesy polling where they can say one thing and do the exact opposite when it comes down to it).

The polling is a huge wast of funds (and Liberty movement doesn't have much funds compared to the establishment/socialists/corporatists).

Invest money into people that you know are behind liberty instead of "gimmicks" that won't do anything.

Of course we all want our representatives to vote because it is right. Now go elect the 250 or so House members you need and the 50 or 60 senators.

Yeah, it is not that simple. Look at audit the fed- why did we bother to call congresspeople to vote for it? We all know that over 50% of them don't really care about a fed audit. But we can still use their votes. So I'll criticize Boxer or Brownback when they screw up (all the time), but I will take their vote for S 604 too.

BTW, you do realize the polling strategy is pretty empirically effective, right? Take people like Club For Growth or FreedomWorks and they are building their organizations with things like this. The politicians have to notice you if you want to show them that you are a force to be reckoned with.

[tpreitzel]

Who said you have lost your freedom? You are free to leave CFL- I am simply arguing it is an extremely unwise decision to do so. But you could stay with CFL without sacrificing your freedom and not paying anything until they do things right.

It would have been far wiser for us, the actual members of CFL, to lobby the leadership and force a change rather than leaving relatively abruptly. The latter strategy isn't freedom- that's illogical.

At this point, I agree. Money talks and withholding money while remaining in the organization is a good first punch.

[fj45lvr]

It would have been far wiser for us, the actual members of CFL, to lobby the leadership and force a change rather than leaving relatively abruptly. The latter strategy isn't freedom- that's illogical.

this story only shows me that they have failed ideas and strategies (sinking money into that is like a black hole). the C4L doesn't have any clout so that one could logically believe that "surveys" are going to amount to anything.

just think how many billboards $350,000 would pay for across the country.

they got to get some more intelligence in there if they expect people to send them money.

[Pauls' Revere]

How about formulating a response to Mr. Tate?

Best idea i've read. An open letter...

[LittleLightShining]

Who said you have lost your freedom? You are free to leave CFL- I am simply arguing it is an extremely unwise decision to do so. But you could stay with CFL without sacrificing your freedom and not paying anything until they do things right.

It would have been far wiser for us, the actual members of CFL, to lobby the leadership and force a change rather than leaving relatively abruptly. The latter strategy isn't freedom- that's illogical.

You may have missed this, but I started questioning C4L a looong time ago. I was continually shut down here by a certain moderator so that I could not voice my concerns and get a conversation going without being attacked publicly and privately. Due to my participation in a thread about a C4L conference, Debbie Hopper was tipped off to what I was saying. At the time I was a county coordinator. Hopper contacted my state coordinator wanting him to let me go. My state coordinator stuck by me. I then got in touch with Debbie Hopper (you wanna have fun, try to get C4L to give you her voice mail :rolleyes:), we had a very long conversation in which I was in effect told that it doesn't matter if any of them believe in the stated C4L principles because they are the experts. When I realized that she honestly had no problem with Rothfeld's disagreement with the principles on foreign policy I was dumbfounded. She was getting mad at me because it mattered to me, saying things like, "You don't agree with your mechanic on everything, do you?" to which I responded, "If it has to do with my CAR I do!"

I was told that as a county coordinator it was inappropriate for me to express my concerns publicly in a way that could be construed as negative. Which reminded me a lot of how I was treated when I was on the executive county GOP committee. Anyway, it was then that I decided I was stepping down as a county coordinator. If you have a leadership position in C4L you DO lose your freedom. It's just a matter of recognizing it. Once you start asking questions you figure it out pretty quickly.

[fj45lvr]

The politicians have to notice you if you want to show them that you are a force to be reckoned with.


You will never gain LIBERTY through politicians....this is a fools errand.


You have to win the people that ELECT politicians not the CROOKS and LIARS that hold the office.

if you only try to become what other "special interests" are....lobbying/persuading whores in DC you are going to lose because there are far more people that are socialists in this country!!! There is far more money buying the crooks and liars and the media that promotes them!!!

You have to operate a REVOLUTION outside of the box.

[LittleLightShining]

Best idea i've read. An open letter...

Michael Nystrom wrote a great one.

[LittleLightShining]

You will never gain LIBERTY through politicians....this is a fools errand.


You have to win the people that ELECT politicians not the CROOKS and LIARS that hold the office.

if you only try to become what other "special interests" are....lobbying/persuading whores in DC you are going to lose because there are far more people that are socialists in this country!!! There is far more money buying the crooks and liars and the media that promotes them!!!

You have to operate a REVOLUTION outside of the box.
Amen! This is what the C4L was supposed to be. States, like VT, who have stuck to the orignal mission-- non-partisan, education, principles-- have been marginalized in favor of the take over the GOP Rothfeld acolytes.

[LibertyMage]

Who really believes a survey is going to "get politicians to vote our way"???

This is crazy....to believe that the republic is going to solely depend on these politicians to be goaded into voting.

I think we want to have people that vote a certain way because they hold the same truths to be evident (not because of some cheesy polling where they can say one thing and do the exact opposite when it comes down to it).

The polling is a huge wast of funds (and Liberty movement doesn't have much funds compared to the establishment/socialists/corporatists).

Invest money into people that you know are behind liberty instead of "gimmicks" that won't do anything to "buy" favors like bribes. Instead of trying to persuade the enemy you conquer the enemy. They are not there because they are just innocently "mis-guided"...they are bought pawns (pretending as double agents so that when the time comes they are treasonous.....voting for half the bills in DC is treason (no other way around it).

You don't understand the intent of the surveys. Read below.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=2516018#post2516018


Specifically, you said the ad is not about him (the candidate Buck). I understand the statement made by Gary Howard is a way of preserving the status of the 501c4 corp in not being allowed to endorse specific candidates. So, to me, it looks like that little survey qualifier was thrown in there to stay out of trouble with the IRS. So I think to say that the ad was not about the candidate is a shady excuse at best.

On your reasoning behind the surveys, assuming that is the real reason this money was spent, what evidence do you have that these types of methods are effective? Why are these survey's not being promoted at the C4L guest or subscriber levels? Certainly surveying is no secret strategy that needs to be protected. I get GOP surveys ALL the time. But, no C4L surveys. What's up with that? A search at the C4L website for "candidate survey" turns up one hit. One. As a coordinator, will you stipulate to the fact that this particular strategy has not been openly discussed to the point where the leadership at all levels has determined that general funds to the tune of THREE HUNDRED and FIFTY THOUSAND DOLLARS should be spent on a survey for ONE primary for ONE district? You want to add that up? That's a pretty big carrot on the stick gimmick to get a politician to fill out your form.

When you combine political candidates surveys and the voting histories of candidates in office, you create what is called a "scorecard (http://monoblogue.us/2010/01/14/our-march-on-annapolis-in-pictures-and-text/)". You print this out and put it in the hands of voters. This is a great way to leverage organization in order to educate people as to who the liberty candidates are. For those of you that can't decipher that statement I'll say it bluntly - it is one of the best ways to influence voting toward our candidates. All activist organizations use this tactic. You can see for yourself (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=voting+scorecard&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS356US357&ie=UTF-8). At the March on Annapolis (http://monoblogue.us/2010/01/14/our-march-on-annapolis-in-pictures-and-text/), which the Baltimore Campaign for Liberty (http://www.campaignforliberty.com/usa/MD/Baltimore/) helped organize a few weeks ago, people went rabid for these scorecards.

[LittleLightShining]

You don't understand the intent of the surveys. Read below.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=2516018#post2516018



When you combine political candidates surveys and the voting histories of candidates in office, you create what is called a "scorecard (http://monoblogue.us/2010/01/14/our-march-on-annapolis-in-pictures-and-text/)". You print this out and put it in the hands of voters. This is a great way to leverage organization in order to educate people as to who the liberty candidates are. For those of you that can't decipher that statement I'll say it bluntly - it is one of the best ways to influence voting toward our candidates. All activist organizations use this tactic. You can see for yourself (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=voting+scorecard&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS356US357&ie=UTF-8). At the March on Annapolis (http://monoblogue.us/2010/01/14/our-march-on-annapolis-in-pictures-and-text/), which the Baltimore Campaign for Liberty (http://www.campaignforliberty.com/usa/MD/Baltimore/) helped organize a few weeks ago, people went rabid for these scorecards.

501c4's can't make scorecards.

[LibertyMage]

501c4's can't make scorecards.

I think one of us is mistaken and I am not sure which it is. Can you point me to the regulation that prohibits this?

[fj45lvr]

BTW, you do realize the polling strategy is pretty empirically effective, right? Take people like Club For Growth or FreedomWorks and they are building their organizations with things like this. The politicians have to notice you if you want to show them that you are a force to be reckoned with.


"notice you" ??? what the hell does that mean?

I'll tell you that when the early patriots stated, "When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny"

they meant that FEAR was backed up by something REAL and CONCRETE (not just contemplation of campaign financing, media exposure, or votes).

We do not have LIBERTY today because the gov. does not fear the people....the people have yet to rise up and topple them. That is the way force works.

saying that "polling strategy" is effective is ridiculous.....that represents the status quo of money and power so that he who has the most comes out on top (the way things have operated for most of US history).

Jefferson is quite right that the tree of Liberty nourished through blood of tyrants.

[LittleLightShining]

I think one of us is mistaken and I am not sure which it is. Can you point me to the regulation that prohibits this?No, I can't. But I can tell you that we discussed doing this in VT. We cannot do it because we are a c4. The Ethan Allen Institute, which is a 501c3, has been doing these for years.


eta I'm finding conflicting information in searching for specifics. I'll eat my words if I'm wrong.

[Imperial]

You will never gain LIBERTY through politicians....this is a fools errand.


You have to win the people that ELECT politicians not the CROOKS and LIARS that hold the office.

if you only try to become what other "special interests" are....lobbying/persuading whores in DC you are going to lose because there are far more people that are socialists in this country!!! There is far more money buying the crooks and liars and the media that promotes them!!!

You have to operate a REVOLUTION outside of the box.

Woah, too many caps and exclamation points. Yes, you do need "out of the box" strategies. But at the same time, you cannot ignore the basics either of politics 101. At the very least you must know how your enemy works, or you fail to convey your points effectively and cannot sway the majority of people that you need to achieve your goals.

Obviously the CFL is not just special interests. Unlike most of the big groups, our money largely came directly from grassroots who are passionate for the cause. And we have been afforded a great opportunity to have an electoral engine in the CFL.

If you want to get mainstream support, you have to make yourself a legitimate force. We keep innovating and we keep pressure on national, yes. I think our set-up now with the CFL and then a highly-responsive online grassroots is effective (particularly if we follow the open-letter response).

BTW, you completely ignored my example of one instance where we all suddenly didn't mind trying to get the votes of the "crooks" and "liars" for HR 1207 and audit the fed.



You may have missed this, but I started questioning C4L a looong time ago. I was continually shut down here by a certain moderator so that I could not voice my concerns and get a conversation going without being attacked publicly and privately. Due to my participation in a thread about a C4L conference, Debbie Hopper was tipped off to what I was saying. At the time I was a county coordinator. Hopper contacted my state coordinator wanting him to let me go. My state coordinator stuck by me. I then got in touch with Debbie Hopper (you wanna have fun, try to get C4L to give you her voice mail ), we had a very long conversation in which I was in effect told that it doesn't matter if any of them believe in the stated C4L principles because they are the experts. When I realized that she honestly had no problem with Rothfeld's disagreement with the principles on foreign policy I was dumbfounded. She was getting mad at me because it mattered to me, saying things like, "You don't agree with your mechanic on everything, do you?" to which I responded, "If it has to do with my CAR I do!"

I was told that as a county coordinator it was inappropriate for me to express my concerns publicly in a way that could be construed as negative. Which reminded me a lot of how I was treated when I was on the executive county GOP committee. Anyway, it was then that I decided I was stepping down as a county coordinator. If you have a leadership position in C4L you DO lose your freedom. It's just a matter of recognizing it. Once you start asking questions you figure it out pretty quickly.

Wow, that is a sucktacular situation. It makes your position much more understandable to be sure.

But I think that only adds more to the need to put pressure on national ourselves. I'm willing to write a letter this weekend if anybody is willing to partake in it. I'm just a dues-paying member, but if we get 1,000 of us signing on saying that our money is on the line they will notice.

If anybody is willing to do something constructive, I'll write the letter and get it to someone to get it up online and ready for signatures.

[fj45lvr]

When you combine political candidates surveys and the voting histories of candidates in office, you create what is called a "scorecard (http://monoblogue.us/2010/01/14/our-march-on-annapolis-in-pictures-and-text/)". You print this out and put it in the hands of voters. This is a great way to leverage organization in order to educate people as to who the liberty candidates are. For those of you that can't decipher that statement I'll say it bluntly - it is one of the best ways to influence voting toward our candidates. All activist organizations use this tactic. You can see for yourself (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=voting+scorecard&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS356US357&ie=UTF-8). At the March on Annapolis (http://monoblogue.us/2010/01/14/our-march-on-annapolis-in-pictures-and-text/), which the Baltimore Campaign for Liberty (http://www.campaignforliberty.com/usa/MD/Baltimore/) helped organize a few weeks ago, people went rabid for these scorecards.


Maybe this could open some peoples eyes.

However, as is illustrated thousands of times: POLITICIANS LIE (they'll say anything to win).....the people don't remember the lies enough to toss these bums out because a majority of them like STATISM/socialism....a majority of americans are the real enemy.

[Imperial]

"notice you" ??? what the hell does that mean?

I'll tell you that when the early patriots stated, "When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny"

they meant that FEAR was backed up by something REAL and CONCRETE (not just contemplation of campaign financing, media exposure, or votes).

We do not have LIBERTY today because the gov. does not fear the people....the people have yet to rise up and topple them. That is the way force works.

saying that "polling strategy" is effective is ridiculous.....that represents the status quo of money and power so that he who has the most comes out on top (the way things have operated for most of US history).

Jefferson is quite right that the tree of Liberty nourished through blood of tyrants.


What do you think happens after we rise up and topple the bad guys in charge? I think this whole episode should illustrate that it is fairly easy for a good cause to be derailed by bad ideas in any situation.

It isn't just that the govt doesn't fear the people. You could have the people clamoring for socialism in a democracy and the govt could react similarly, but rather than dismantling the coercive apparatus of govt it would be building it up further. So, your means you are advocating are also quite dangerous I would point out.

[LittleLightShining]

If you want to get mainstream support, you have to make yourself a legitimate force. We keep innovating and we keep pressure on national, yes. I think our set-up now with the CFL and then a highly-responsive online grassroots is effective (particularly if we follow the open-letter response). If we want to have mainstream support we need to become active in our communities and talk to people about what's happening. There's no better way to reach an average Joe than to start a conversation with him.



Wow, that is a sucktacular situation. It makes your position much more understandable to be sure.

But I think that only adds more to the need to put pressure on national ourselves. I'm willing to write a letter this weekend if anybody is willing to partake in it. I'm just a dues-paying member, but if we get 1,000 of us signing on saying that our money is on the line they will notice.

If anybody is willing to do something constructive, I'll write the letter and get it to someone to get it up online and ready for signatures.

Sucktacular is right.

If you write a letter and I agree with it I'll sign it. But until a few heads roll I'm done with national. I am every bit as committed to VT C4L as I was when we started but national is compromised.

[fj45lvr]

BTW, you completely ignored my example of one instance where we all suddenly didn't mind trying to get the votes of the "crooks" and "liars" for HR 1207 and audit the fed.
.


I have to laugh at this one. The same bill where one single congressional committee member can GUT the entire bill? it then is ammended back in and sent to obscurity in the senate. (the same bill that Ron wouldn't even vote for anyhow because of the other poison included in it???)

To win you have to educate the masses... Liberty voters only garnered 1/10th of the GOP presedential voting (and that doesn't consider that the other 51+ percent of the majority party voted for statist/socialists).....

we are a very small minority...concentrate on the people not the crooks and liars

[fj45lvr]

What do you think happens after we rise up and topple the bad guys in charge? .

for one, you don't have a "federal gov." anymore. Already way better off. Secession is best means to do this too BTW.

[Imperial]

I have to laugh at this one. The same bill where one single congressional committee member can GUT the entire bill? it then is ammended back in and sent to obscurity in the senate. (the same bill that Ron wouldn't even vote for anyhow because of the other poison included in it???)

To win you have to educate the masses... Liberty voters only garnered 1/10th of the GOP presedential voting (and that doesn't consider that the other 51+ percent of the majority party voted for statist/socialists).....

we are a very small minority...concentrate on the people not the crooks and liars

I do agree with you that of course community outreach is the best political change. But I think having a visible national presence, both on Capitol Hill in legislative battles and as a mobilizer of activists, is also key to get donors, media attention, and to show legitimacy as an actor in politics.

And even when we have the small group of legislators who support us, we will still need more representatives and senators than we will be able to line up with us ideologically to help us pass measures to push liberty.


If we want to have mainstream support we need to become active in our communities and talk to people about what's happening. There's no better way to reach an average Joe than to start a conversation with him.

Of course! I don't think our goals are mutually exclusive, and both are fighting for the same thing.

I'm going to be debating at a debate tournament in a few hours, but when I am done I can get to work on it and hopefully get it up by tomorrow night.

[fj45lvr]

You don't understand the intent of the surveys. Read below.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=2516018#post2516018 (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=2516018#post2516018)

.


As I have said before, you have to club people when they don't do what you want and praise them when you do. You have to rub shoulders with people you don't totally agree with in this game. That may bother some of you, but if you are committed to playing the game it is a reality you will have to come to understand.


The strategy that "clubbing" the Federal Congressmen and Senators or "praising them" is a failed strategy.

"playing the game".....that's the whole point. a "REVOLUTION" is not just "playing the game" and trying to emulate strategies that the democrats and others are using in said game.

the "game" is rigged. You have to destroy the game, not become a member of the "game".

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

"Was the sabotage mission successful?" "Yes sir."

[fj45lvr]

I do agree with you that of course community outreach is the best political change. But I think having a visible national presence, both on Capitol Hill in legislative battles and as a mobilizer of activists, is also key to get donors, media attention, and to show legitimacy as an actor in politics.
.


they could have used $350,000 to pump the hell out of (paying for massive amounts of letters and email requesting to see it aired on fox) Judge Napalitano's "freedom watch"

that would be money well spent. we are fortunate that Dr. Paul is now getting considerable air time on the major networks to spread the word.....I think I have read that Lew Rockwell's site is getting growing traffic....

we could have bought tens of thousands of "end the fed" stamps so people could deface federal reserve notes.....

there are scores of ways to use that money then what they did trying to become simply another political group amongst scores of others trying to push their agendas (and in this case helping a big-spender foreign war advocate undermining security).

[DjLoTi]

Deleted my account, but I didn't delete my passion for liberty and desire to continue working with freedom lovers on other projects, including Ron Paul 2012.

True. =)

- never had an acct 2 delete....

[dr. hfn]

we're our own worst enemy

[LibertyEagle]

they could have used $350,000 to pump the hell out of (paying for massive amounts of letters and email requesting to see it aired on fox) Judge Napalitano's "freedom watch"

that would be money well spent. we are fortunate that Dr. Paul is now getting considerable air time on the major networks to spread the word.....I think I have read that Lew Rockwell's site is getting growing traffic....

we could have bought tens of thousands of "end the fed" stamps so people could deface federal reserve notes.....

there are scores of ways to use that money then what they did trying to become simply another political group amongst scores of others trying to push their agendas (and in this case helping a big-spender foreign war advocate undermining security).

From what they said, the 350K was not the money that we donated to them. The 350K came from new Colorado donors who specifically earmarked the money for the Buck ad.

[DjLoTi]

From what they said, the 350K was not the money that we donated to them. The 350K came from new Colorado donors who specifically earmarked the money for the Buck ad.

changes things. still kind of shady

[qwerty]

we're our own worst enemy

SO TRUE! :mad:

It seems that some are here noly to sabotage!

[Vessol]

SO TRUE! :mad:

It seems that some are here noly to sabotage!

Yes. If someone dares ask a question, call them your enemy. Way to be a partisan shill.

/sigh

[qwerty]

Yes. If someone dares ask a question, call them your enemy. Way to be a partisan shill.

/sigh

You know who i´m talking about. :rolleyes:

[fj45lvr]

From what they said, the 350K was not the money that we donated to them. The 350K came from new Colorado donors who specifically earmarked the money for the Buck ad.

Thanks for stating this. It makes it less damaging in a way as to fiscal responsibility.

[LittleLightShining]

From what they said, the 350K was not the money that we donated to them. The 350K came from new Colorado donors who specifically earmarked the money for the Buck ad.Ohhh, ok, so some wealthy Simmons supporters in CT decide to fork over $350k so he can fill out a survey and get an ad?


changes things. still kind of shady


Thanks for stating this. It makes it less damaging in a way as to fiscal responsibility.
No, it doesn't. It means the people at national are willing to pimp out the logo that boots on the ground helped establish.

[hugolp]

From what they said, the 350K was not the money that we donated to them. The 350K came from new Colorado donors who specifically earmarked the money for the Buck ad.

How can be people know this is true? Are C4L books public and open? (I dont know, its a genuine question) Or are they closed and C4L is asking people to just believe that the money came from a CO fundraiser as a matter of faith?

[LittleLightShining]

How can be people know this is true? Are C4L books public and open? (I dont know, its a genuine question) Or are they closed and C4L is asking people to just believe that the money came from a CO fundraiser as a matter of faith?

They're closed. We will never know unless they open the books and show us. 501c4's are about as well shielded from scrutiny as the Fed is, which is terribly ironic.

[qwerty]

They're closed. We will never know unless they open the books and show us. 501c4's are about as well shielded from scrutiny as the Fed is, which is terribly ironic.

So what´s the solution ?

Make accusations ? :rolleyes:

Solution is start demanding for more transparency or simply start spending your money to the local projects... :rolleyes:

[LibertyEagle]

Ohhh, ok, so some wealthy Simmons supporters in CT decide to fork over $350k so he can fill out a survey and get an ad?

I did not say I agreed with it, LLS. Because I clearly do not. I think it was an extremely stupid move.

But, I think this thing has been whirled into a lynch mob and I think that is quite unfortunate too.

[JXL78]

Deleted. I'll re-join if they shit-can Tate and anyone else involved in the ad.

[qwerty]

Deleted. I'll re-join if they shit-can Tate and anyone else involved in the ad.

Here´s a great example of a very productive comment on our movement!


:rolleyes:

[hugolp]

Here´s a great example of a very productive comment on our movement!


:rolleyes:

And here is a not productive one.

qwerty I am subscribed to your Youtube channel and I enjoy your videos, but talking to people like if they are stupid or 6 year old kids is not going to help. Discuss the issues and clarify them is what is going to help.

[Meiun]

that is fine.
i'm busy building bridges, others are busy tearing them down.
you will never change anything by yourself- and your children will bear the burden of your choices.
how easy for people to forget the success of HR1207- a campaign led by the group you condemn. we got all of our reps and one of our senators in this state- the effort was led here by c4l.
we had nothing like this before and got nothing done.
now we are back to getting nothing done. self-destruct.
In a sadistic way- the people in this thread make me laugh out loud.
history repeats. again.

But, I will tell you the truth, Torch. Re-read this over and over. The freedom movement did this and MORE with near zero cash just by believing a common set of ideals and staying in communication ON THIS FORUM!
We don't need some paid group who does nothing but spend money without our approval pushing the same message that we could have done ourselves... and without all the spamming "oh my god the world is burning, give me 50 bucks" emails!

[LibertyEagle]

But, I will tell you the truth, Torch. Re-read this over and over. The freedom movement did this and MORE with near zero cash just by believing a common set of ideals and staying in communication ON THIS FORUM!
We don't need some paid group who does nothing but spend money without our approval pushing the same message that we could have done ourselves... and without all the spamming "oh my god the world is burning, give me 50 bucks" emails!

We were amazing. Yes. But, where we shined so much was from one-offs like sign-waving or attending a rally. And of course all the outstanding individual efforts like AdamT's, RPHs, and others too countless to name.

When it came to organizing something that involved strategy and a focus on a multi-step approach, we didn't do as well. We were political neophytes, for one. And as libertarians, we don't much like to organize. That doesn't change the fact that organization is needed for some things, in order to be successful.

The C4L royally screwed the pooch on this thing. Yes, they certainly did. Some changes need to be made so that it never happens again. But, by the same token, I personally am not going to forget about the good things they've done. Like mobilize us for the Audit the FED fight; like holding rallies with Ron Paul and Judge Napolitano, with subsequent trainings, across the nation, so that we can get up to speed how to be effective as political activists, etc. And that is just C4L national, which is a very small part of C4L.

They screwed up. Man, did they screw up. Do you want to fix it or bury it?

[LittleLightShining]

I did not say I agreed with it, LLS. Because I clearly do not. I think it was an extremely stupid move.

But, I think this thing has been whirled into a lynch mob and I think that is quite unfortunate too.I didn't say you did. At least not within the last day or so. Maybe we need a "lynch mob" if we're going to fix this. Otherwise we'll get a Britney Spears, "Oops, I did it again."


We were amazing. Yes. But, where we shined so much was from one-offs like sign-waving or attending a rally. And of course all the outstanding individual efforts like AdamT's, RPHs, and others too countless to name.

When it came to organizing something that involved strategy and a focus on a multi-step approach, we didn't do as well. We were political neophytes, for one. And as libertarians, we don't much like to organize. That doesn't change the fact that organization is needed for some things, in order to be successful.

The C4L royally screwed the pooch on this thing. Yes, they certainly did. Some changes need to be made so that it never happens again. But, by the same token, I personally am not going to forget about the good things they've done. Like mobilize us for the Audit the FED fight; like holding rallies with Ron Paul and Judge Napolitano, with subsequent trainings, across the nation, so that we can get up to speed how to be effective as political activists, etc.

They screwed up. Do you want to fix it or bury it?They did not necessarily mobilize us for Audit the Fed, LE. They helped but we did the footwork-- they got the money. They didn't even help us by sending states $100 worth of Audit the Fed slim jims or petitions. They took money from people in the states and left us to fend for ourselves.

The training sessions are another bunch of money making opportunities for them. Another way to get more bucks from the grassroots with the added bonus of being told education is worthless we need to get into the GOP. Anyone who has tried this route without having a bunch of educated people locally to do it with (and sometimes even then) can tell you it's a good way to get yourself labeled, ostracized and then thrown out on your rear end.

Everyone who has attempted this can tell you that the GOP on the surface has no problem with with everything we stand for except foreign policy. So what does C4L do? Cave on foreign policy.

Look, LE, I know you don't want to believe people you know and like are either compromised or incompetent but those are really the only two ways to look at it.

[torchbearer]

repost from medina thread:


I agree...that was her most unstable moment of the night. I wish she could have said something like "it doesn't matter what my view is.. the people of Texas have voted and spoken against same sex unions; and their decision stands"

with the fucking retards we have on this forum- if she had said the above,
you would see all kinds of threads on here calling her a traitor-
in the past month i have seen retards on this forums post-
Ron Paul is a traitor (for endorsing republicans)
C4L is really a neocon scam (for buying a politician that would be beholden to them financially)
Schiff is a neocon (because he would defend this country if it were attacked)
Rand Paul is a traitor because he wanted to keep gitmo or some crap like that.
so- let's add the Medina is a traitor thread.

that will complete the stupidity which this forum has become.

^^
there is a pattern here. and its the same people who are initiating most of it.

[Meiun]

We were amazing. Yes. But, where we shined so much was from one-offs like sign-waving or attending a rally. And of course all the outstanding individual efforts like AdamT's, RPHs, and others too countless to name.

When it came to organizing something that involved strategy and a focus on a multi-step approach, we didn't do as well. We were political neophytes, for one. And as libertarians, we don't much like to organize. That doesn't change the fact that organization is needed for some things, in order to be successful.

The C4L royally screwed the pooch on this thing. Yes, they certainly did. Some changes need to be made so that it never happens again. But, by the same token, I personally am not going to forget about the good things they've done. Like mobilize us for the Audit the FED fight; like holding rallies with Ron Paul and Judge Napolitano, with subsequent trainings, across the nation, so that we can get up to speed how to be effective as political activists, etc. And that is just C4L national, which is a very small part of C4L.

They screwed up. Man, did they screw up. Do you want to fix it or bury it?

What I refuse to do is become the enemy. Understanding the mind of the political elite is one thing, but become like them to achieve a means is where we should draw the line as a liberty movement. Saying that the power of the individual to affect change in this world is limited to those in the know denies the very essence of liberty that we have come to so vehemently believe in.

I agree that the ability to organize the meetings and trainings was a good thing. Some members who feel it their calling to become so informed have benefitted. On the same hand, do you really think Dr. Paul, or the Judge would have withheld that information (or any of those involved) if we had been the ones asking?

I point to the YAL for success of the movement, not to CFL. It is heartening to see the message of liberty spread so freely amongst the next generation. This, again, reinforces the concept that it is the IDEA, not the organization (or people) that matters.

[LibertyEagle]

I didn't say you did. At least not within the last day or so.
This is typical of your modus operandi, isn't it now. You just now accused me of supporting this ad and that is a FLAT OUT LIE. You of course, know that, but your intention is to make others wonder.

Nice try, but FAIL.


Everyone who has attempted this can tell you that the GOP on the surface has no problem with with everything we stand for except foreign policy. So what does C4L do? Cave on foreign policy.
They don't agree with us on everything else. Not things like the Patriot Act and the like. Many were brainwashed into believing that they needed to give up liberty for security.

I do not agree with caving on foreign policy. Not at all. But, let's not twist the facts, shall we.


Look, LE, I know you don't want to believe people you know and like are either compromised or incompetent but those are really the only two ways to look at it.

"knowing and liking" has nothing to do with anything. And for that matter, the way I know anyone is because I was calling the PCC and raising hell during RP's presidential campaign.

They made a huge mistake. Some changes need to be made. Yes, they do and we should insist on those being made. It does not follow that we try to burn down the house and bite off our noses to spite our faces. But, to each their own.

[MsDoodahs]

The C4L royally screwed the pooch on this thing. Yes, they certainly did. Some changes need to be made so that it never happens again.

When CFL initially formed, they asked us to be patient and we were.

Whenever the grassroots would press for them to get off their asses and DO the things that had been PROMISED - CFL would tell us we were not giving them enough time. Then they'd tell us they needed yet MORE money.

We waited and waited and waited and waited.

The things that were promised - NEVER HAPPENED.

Instead, CFL became a TOP DOWN org RUN BY FUNDRAISING EXPERTS.

Transparency? NO WAY. Have they EVER told the grassroots what the expenditures are? HELL NO.

CFL wouldn't spend the money to get the quality website design that was presented to them (AND LEAKED HERE BY MROCKED IF I RECALL CORRECTLY).

Instead, they have a site that is poorly designed, clunky, ineffective and God only knows how much they pay the staffer that is "in charge" of that.

CERTAIN (favored?) people receive remuneration from CFL. Certain others (not favored?) don't.

Sorry, there is just WAY WAY WAY too much corruption - coming from the TOP DOWN - for me to believe that "some changes" will ever be made.

And, based on CFL's history of making empty promises....Nothing will happen, they'll wait for the dust to settle and start once again hounding their members for more money more money more money.




Do you want to fix it or bury it?



Bury it.

[LittleLightShining]

This is typical of your modus operandi, isn't it now. You just now accused me of supporting this ad and that is a FLAT OUT LIE. You of course, know that, but your intention is to make others wonder.

Nice try, but FAIL. Up until yesterday you were staunchly defending national. Something changed, but you're too thick headed to admit it.



They don't agree with us on everything else. Not things like the Patriot Act and the like. Many were brainwashed into believing that they needed to give up liberty for security.

I do not agree with caving on foreign policy. Not at all. But, let's not twist the facts, shall we. As far as the C4L statement of principles goes the only thing most conservatives in the GOP can not agree on is foreign policy.




"knowing and liking" has nothing to do with anything. And for that matter, the way I know anyone is because I was calling the PCC and raising hell during RP's presidential campaign.

They made a huge mistake. Some changes need to be made. Yes, they do and we should insist on those being made. It does not follow that we try to burn down the house and bite off our noses to spite our faces. But, to each their own.If you were raising hell then why are you so quick to defend the same people making the same mistakes now?

[LibertyEagle]

MsD, while I agree with you on some of that, there is no proof that I have seen anyone show that Rothfeld ("the fundraising expert") was involved in this ad in any way, shape, or form. Do you have any such proof?

[LibertyEagle]

Up until yesterday you were staunchly defending national. Something changed, but you're too thick headed to admit it.
You're confusing not running around on the open board taking pot shots, with agreeing with everything they have done. I have voiced my concerns and my suggestions to them directly.


As far as the C4L statement of principles goes the only thing most conservatives in the GOP can not agree on is foreign policy.
Ok. Fair enough. But, the issue of "foreign policy" is a pretty encompassing term. A lot of Repubs were brainwashed to believe that its our right to attack anyone we want, for whatever reason. And quite a few of those still haven't quite seen that the Patriot Act is a direct assault on their own liberty.


If you were raising hell then why are you so quick to defend the same people making the same mistakes now?
I have not defended C4L's actions on this ad. Not one time. As I am sure you know, I am the one who called MsD to tell her about this because I was so mad about it, after I got off the phone with the C4L Comm Director. I cooled down a bit later after I found out that it wasn't our money that went towards the ad, but I am still not happy about it at all. That ad should never have been made. How many times do I have to say this?

That said, I am also one who thinks that it's irresponsible to put nooses around people's necks until proof exists that they specifically were involved. I see that being done here. It reminds me a lot of how Bush used 9-11 to attack Iraq.

One does not need to join the lynch mob being promoted here, to disagree with C4L's actions on this ad and want changes to be made so that such a thing never happens again.

[MsDoodahs]

Do you have any proof that he didn't, LE?

He has confirmed ties to Colorado politics.

http://saberinc.net/saber/about/mir.pdf

Past or current clients of SABER and Mr. Rothfeld include: Campaign for
Liberty, The National Right to Work Committee and Legal Defense Foundation,
Public Advocate of the U.S., Free Enterprise Fund, U.S. Congressman Marilyn
Musgrave (R-CO), U.S. Congressman Doug Lamborn for Congress (R-CO), Del. Mark Cole (VA), Del. Clay Athey, Del. Lee Ware (VA), Mike Farris for Lt. Governor,
the Republican Party of Virginia, Gun Owners of America, Oliver North for U.S.
Senate Committee and multiple state-level pro-life and pro-gun citizens’ organizations.

Rothfeld AND TATE have ties to Colorado politics.

I do not believe it is a coincidence that this ad debacle happened in a state where both of these high level CFLers have past political ties.

[LittleLightShining]

You're confusing not running around on the open board taking pot shots, with agreeing with everything they have done. I have voiced my concerns and my suggestions to them directly. What you call bashing and pot shots more discerning people call asking questions and raising concerns :rolleyes:



Ok. Fair enough. But, the issue of "foreign policy" is a pretty encompassing term. A lot of Repubs were brainwashed to believe that its our right to attack anyone we want, for whatever reason. And quite a few of those still haven't quite seen that the Patriot Act is a direct assault on their own liberty. We agree, the rest of this statement is irrelevant.



I have not defended C4L's actions on this ad. Not one time. As I am sure you know, I am the one who called MsD to tell her about this because I was so mad about it, after I got off the phone with the C4L Comm Director. I cooled down a bit later after I found out that it wasn't our money that went towards the ad, but I am still not happy about it at all. That ad should never have been made. How many times do I have to say this? Maybe you're mad about the ad but you consistently refuse to look at the bigger picture AND you continually call grassroots demands for transparency and accountability things like "lynch mobs" and "witch hunts".


That said, I am one who thinks that it's irresponsible to put nooses around people's necks until proof exists that they specifically were involved. I see that being done here. It reminds me a lot of how Bush used 9-11 to attack Iraq. Cute.

You keep giving them the benefit of the doubt, you keep defending them and not making them answer the REAL questions. I don't know if you realize you're being used here or not.


One does not need to join the lynch mob being promoted here, to disagree with C4L's actions on this ad.Mmm hmmm... So it's just this ad? You have no problem with anything else any of these people have done going back to the PCC?

I really want to understand why you are defending them so much. What have they done for you?

[TheConstitutionLives]

I think all you haters should chill out for a while. You're making this too big of a deal this early.

[fj45lvr]

anybody else receive C4L letters in the mail?? They request donations which is fine but I am sure these are expensive, they NEED desperately to have a box to check to be removed from mailings and be ELECTRONIC only....how much money would that save??

They want money through these solicitations more than any other in my mailbox.

[YumYum]

I think all you haters should chill out for a while. You're making this too big of a deal this early.

"Haters" is a pretty powerful word. How about the words "hurt", "insulted", "frustrated", "deceived", and "angry"?

[catdd]

Using the word "haters" in this case is no different than using "anti semite" or "racist".
It just sounds like a ploy.
Many of us have already jumped ship so it's a mute point.

[dean.engelhardt]

Yesterday, I deleted my CFL account. Then I got a letter in the mail from CFL asking for money. It was accompanied with a letter from Ron Paul telling me that CFL really needs my money.

I used the reverse side of the CFL contribution form to write a letter to Mike Tate and inform him that I will not support nation building candiates through CFL.

I used the reverse side of Ron Paul's letter to write to him. I told him I no longer support CFL beacuse they endorse candiates like Ken Buck, while Peter Shciff, Adam Kokesh, and Rand Paul receive no support.

[LibertyEagle]

We agree, the rest of this statement is irrelevant. Maybe you're mad about the ad but you consistently refuse to look at the bigger picture
I refuse to use this ad deal to further an alternate agenda. And that is what I see being done.


AND you continually call grassroots demands for transparency and accountability things like "lynch mobs" and "witch hunts".

Cute.
Demands for transparency and changes, which many have made, are quite different than fomenting a lynch mob to destroy C4L.


You keep giving them the benefit of the doubt, you keep defending them and not making them answer the REAL questions.
I have said again and again that changes need to be made in how C4L is operating. I fail to see what is to gain for me to go running around the open board calling for their heads. How do you believe that is going to get them to answer "the REAL questions"?

Another approach might be to work together, or individually, to create a document with those "real questions" and send them to Allison, or every, single member of C4L national, if you prefer.


I don't know if you realize you're being used here or not.Mmm hmmm...
There you go again. :rolleyes: If someone does not want to join your lynch mob, then they must agree with C4L's actions. Ok, I get it now. :cool:


So it's just this ad? You have no problem with anything else any of these people have done going back to the PCC?
Sure, I do. Plenty of things. And I have taken those things to them directly.


I really want to understand why you are defending them so much. What have they done for you?
I think we need an organization to mobilize us and to train us how to be effective, politically. Whether that is C4L or a different organization(s), still remains to be seen. In a relatively short period of time, C4L has gotten to a point that it is being noticed on a national level. That is no small feat; it is huge. They screwed the pooch on this ad. That is for sure. And I want to know what they are going to do to ENSURE it will never happen again. I also want to see a number of other changes made, that should have happened long ago. That said, I am not ready to put a dagger through C4L's heart. After all, only a very small part of C4L is national; most of it is the grassroots.

If you want to give up on it, that's your prerogative. It is not mine. Not yet.

[LibertyEagle]

Do you have any proof that he didn't, LE?
So, it's guilty until proven innocent, eh? Since when was that something for which we stood? Gitmo, anyone?


He has confirmed ties to Colorado politics.
So what? It's a good thing that we have people that have some political knowledge in this movement. That was one of the problems with the PCC; the vast majority of them were just like us. Political neophytes.

You still haven't shown any proof.

[UtahApocalypse]

Do you have any proof that he didn't, LE?

He has confirmed ties to Colorado politics.

http://saberinc.net/saber/about/mir.pdf

Past or current clients of SABER and Mr. Rothfeld include: Campaign for
Liberty, The National Right to Work Committee and Legal Defense Foundation,
Public Advocate of the U.S., Free Enterprise Fund, U.S. Congressman Marilyn
Musgrave (R-CO), U.S. Congressman Doug Lamborn for Congress (R-CO), Del. Mark Cole (VA), Del. Clay Athey, Del. Lee Ware (VA), Mike Farris for Lt. Governor,
the Republican Party of Virginia, Gun Owners of America, Oliver North for U.S.
Senate Committee and multiple state-level pro-life and pro-gun citizens’ organizations.

Rothfeld AND TATE have ties to Colorado politics.

I do not believe it is a coincidence that this ad debacle happened in a state where both of these high level CFLers have past political ties.
...

[LibertyEagle]

What does any of that prove? Go find out the facts. Ask the hard questions or whatever you need to ask. Then, let's go from there.

Right now, it's all just supposition that is being used to further a witch hunt.

[LittleLightShining]

So, it's guilty until proven innocent, eh? Since when was that something for which we stood? Gitmo, anyone?Maybe if they weren't so secretive, if they hadn't made this huge "mistake" and been more forthcoming with a response... maybe if there was any indication that concerns raised as early as November of 2008 that our issues would be addressed and FIXED... maybe then we wouldn't be as wary of them as we are and wouldn't feel the need to dig deeper about these people.

I'm STILL looking for something other than John Tate's C4L profile page that says he's the president of JFT Consulting, Inc. http://www.google.com/search?q=%22john+tate%22+%22jft+consulting%22&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=R4y&filter=0



So what? It's a good thing that we have people that have some political knowledge in this movement. That was one of the problems with the PCC; the vast majority of them were just like us. Political neophytes.

You still haven't shown any proof.Like John Tate and Debbie Hopper, LE???

[angelatc]

What does any of that prove? Go find out the facts. Ask the hard questions or whatever you need to ask. Then, let's go from there.

Right now, it's all just supposition that is being used to further a witch hunt.

And what exactly should we do when we are told that they're not going to tell us who the donors were?

[RCA]

that is fine.
i'm busy building bridges, others are busy tearing them down.
you will never change anything by yourself- and your children will bear the burden of your choices.
how easy for people to forget the success of HR1207- a campaign led by the group you condemn. we got all of our reps and one of our senators in this state- the effort was led here by c4l.
we had nothing like this before and got nothing done.
now we are back to getting nothing done. self-destruct.
In a sadistic way- the people in this thread make me laugh out loud.
history repeats. again.

Uh, who said that leaving C4L meant the end of fighting for liberty? If that were the case, how did we do anything before C4L existed? If anything, this has motivated enough people to get active again by regrouping. H.R. 1207 was a U.S. House of Representatives bill. Since when did C4L have a monopoly over U.S. legislation bragging rights? You think the members leaving C4L don't support H.R. 1207 anymore or can't still contact their representation? This is exactly the reason C4L was able to endorse this asshole, because they new so much of their base had put them on such a high pedestal. Take a deep breath and realize C4L was not the end all, be all.

[LittleLightShining]

Uh, who said that leaving C4L meant the end of fighting for liberty? If that were the case, how did we do anything before C4L existed? If anything, this has motivated enough people to get active again by regrouping. H.R. 1207 was a U.S. House of Representatives bill. Since when did C4L have a monopoly over U.S. legislation bragging rights? You think the members leaving C4L don't support H.R. 1207 anymore or can't still contact their representation? This is exactly the reason C4L was able to endorse this asshole, because they new so much of their base had put them on such a high pedestal. Take a deep breath and realize C4L was not the end all, be all.

Don't listen to torch.

[MsDoodahs]

So, it's guilty until proven innocent, eh? Since when was that something for which we stood? Gitmo, anyone?

If I could put Tate and Rothfeld on the witness stand and get the truth, I damn sure would. I can't do that and they sure as hell won't tell the truth, so I will continue to search for as much information about the two of them as I can find.

And I will report the things I find here, so the members of this forum can make their OWN decisions.

I've accepted the fact that CFL will NEVER give us a straight answer.

All we have to go on is what we can dig up.

You can ignore the FACT that two of CFL's top people have political ties to Colorado - the home state of the NON LIBERTY CANDIDATE who CFL was willing to sell its soul to support - sure, you can ignore that if you so choose.

I choose not to.



So what? It's a good thing that we have people that have some political knowledge in this movement.

I have enough political knowledge to know a fucked up backroom deal when I see one. Sadly, I'm not shocked to see that you think affiliation with these kinds of people are good for the movement.




That was one of the problems with the PCC; the vast majority of them were just like us. Political neophytes.

The PCC had Hopper and Tate on board before Iowa.

These are the people you just claimed have this essential political savvy.

Get yer story straight. You can't have it both ways.



You still haven't shown any proof.

If I am able to find some definitive proof, you can rest assured I will post it.

I will continue to post things I do find that seem to fill in the gaping holes that CFL is leaving as to WHY the top level staff chose to throw principles - and the grassroots - overboard in favor of this Buck character.

[Cowlesy]

I see Mike Rothfield consults with Gun Owners of America. What is our position on Gun Owners of America?

[LibertyEagle]

I have enough political knowledge to know a fucked up backroom deal when I see one. Sadly, I'm not shocked to see that you think affiliation with these kinds of people are good for the movement.
What's that supposed to mean?

Since when is having the knowledge of how to be effective within a political party, some kind of sin? That does not mean we sell out.

I suppose if one's goal is contrary to reinstating our constitutional republic, that person wouldn't see the necessity of effective political activism.


The PCC had Hopper and Tate on board before Iowa.

These are the people you just claimed have this essential political savvy.

Get yer story straight. You can't have it both ways.

What "story"?

Hold accountable the people responsible for an action. That's what I believe. Not foment a lynch mob; nor go running around shooting off my mouth libeling people until we know for sure.


If I am able to find some definitive proof, you can rest assured I will post it.
Good. I'll be waiting to see it.

[RCA]

I see Mike Rothfield consults with Gun Owners of America. What is our position on Gun Owners of America?

GOA is a single issue organization, and so long as they continue to uphold their one principle, they're great.

[LibertyEagle]

And what exactly should we do when we are told that they're not going to tell us who the donors were?

Personally, I need some kind of papertrail, or other proof, to ensure me that the money for that ad did not come from our contributions. I insist. That's a starting point.

[Danke]

I knew C4L was doomed when I was able to join back in 2008. :D

"Please accept my resignation. I don’t care to belong to any club that will have me as a member". Groucho Marx

[MsDoodahs]

Since when is having the knowledge of how to be effective within a political party, some kind of sin?

That in and of itself isn't a sin.


That does not mean we sell out.

WE didn't sell out. CFL SOLD US OUT. Via that Buck ad.


Hold accountable the people responsible for an action. That's what I believe.

When has CFL come clean and told the truth as to who IS accountable? They haven't.



Not foment a lynch mob; nor go running around shooting off my mouth libeling people until we know for sure.


We aren't GOING to know for sure - you KNOW that CFL isn't going to tell the truth!

[LittleLightShining]

Personally, I need some kind of papertrail, or other proof, to ensure me that the money for that ad did not come from our contributions. I insist. That's a starting point.

Good luck with that, LE, I suspect you'll be waiting a long time. Meanwhile there is research to be done.

[MsDoodahs]

Personally, I need some kind of papertrail, or other proof, to ensure me that the money for that ad did not come from our contributions. I insist. That's a starting point.

Insist in one hand, shit in the other, see which one fills up first.

[qh4dotcom]

I'm not deleting my account but I am not sending another penny until I start seeing some results like HR 1207 becoming law. Kind of sad to see the liberty movement falling apart.

[__27__]

I'm not deleting my account but I am not sending another penny until I start seeing some results like HR 1207 becoming law. Kind of sad to see the liberty movement falling apart.

Why on earth would C4L selling out mean the liberty movement is falling apart? Are you honestly telling me if C4L imploded today you would no longer work for the cause of liberty? If people really are this dependent on C4L for their liberty activism, perhaps it is the best thing for the liberty movement if they dissolve.

[RCA]

Why on earth would C4L selling out mean the liberty movement is falling apart? Are you honestly telling me if C4L imploded today you would no longer work for the cause of liberty? If people really are this dependent on C4L for their liberty activism, perhaps it is the best thing for the liberty movement if they dissolve.

His liberty timeline:

1776 liberty movement begins

2010 liberty movement ends due to C4L's sellout

:rolleyes:

[qh4dotcom]

Why on earth would C4L selling out mean the liberty movement is falling apart? Are you honestly telling me if C4L imploded today you would no longer work for the cause of liberty? If people really are this dependent on C4L for their liberty activism, perhaps it is the best thing for the liberty movement if they dissolve.

No I didn't say that...of course I will continue to work for the cause of liberty.

What I meant by the liberty movement falling apart is liberty activists arguing with each other instead of cooperating with each other.

[torchbearer]

Uh, who said that leaving C4L meant the end of fighting for liberty? If that were the case, how did we do anything before C4L existed? If anything, this has motivated enough people to get active again by regrouping. H.R. 1207 was a U.S. House of Representatives bill. Since when did C4L have a monopoly over U.S. legislation bragging rights? You think the members leaving C4L don't support H.R. 1207 anymore or can't still contact their representation? This is exactly the reason C4L was able to endorse this asshole, because they new so much of their base had put them on such a high pedestal. Take a deep breath and realize C4L was not the end all, be all.

c4l has been a national organization in which all our local groups across the country have coordinated with- to great effectiveness.
your small lil' club of people who think exactly like you will not have that ability.
we tried many times on this forum from the beginning to do a national network. everyone of them failed.
its not the end all- but its a big step backwards.
here's to eating our own!

[someperson]

Dependent on a collective? Desperate for central planning for your activities?
http://nowsourcing.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/bush_doing_it_wrong.jpg

How to Coordinate with Other Individuals:
Wrong. server is compromised, everything falls apart
http://www.acm.org/crossroads/xrds12-1/gfx/GamestateFidelity2.jpg

Right. client is compromised, damage is negligible
http://www.acm.org/crossroads/xrds12-1/gfx/GamestateFidelity1.jpg

I'm only being half serious above ;) maybe ;) Obviously, there's nothing wrong with coming together to coordinate projects, but I believe the use of nameless, temporary "organizations" funded by one-shot chip-ins is the best approach. A nameless organization based around an idea is infinitely more difficult to disrupt. Rambling aside, this movement is comprised of self-directed individuals. The ill-advised activities of one would-be central planner will not cause anything to fall apart.

[libertygrl]

WTF? This is very disturbing!!! At least wait for an explanation or call/write to find out answers and voice your frustrations. Don't just start abandoning ship! What if this was some sort of ploy to throw CFL into turmoil and destroy the group from within? You may be playing right into their hands. Geez.... if we had people like this from the first American Revolution we'd still be a British colony!

Great.. so campaign for liberty goes under while groups like 9-12 and CSA take off and continue to push the same neo-con agendas. PLEASE chill out people!

[torchbearer]

This movement is comprised of self-directed individuals. The ill-advised activities of one would-be central planner will not cause anything to fall apart.

this movement had been a few people here and there working as self-directed local groups since before i was born. we got no where. and that is where we will go without a organized national group to facilitate national activities.

[MsDoodahs]

Sheep need a shepherd and slaves need a master.

That may describe some people but it sure as hell doesn't describe all of us.

[LittleLightShining]

this movement had been a few people here and there working as self-directed local groups since before i was born. we got no where. and that is where we will go without a organized national group to facilitate national activities.
I can't believe how brainwashed some of you are! C4L has only been around for a year and a half! All of the good that came from C4L came from the grassroots. Show me a quantitative success, please.

[torchbearer]

I can't believe how brainwashed some of you are! C4L has only been around for a year and a half! All of the good that came from C4L came from the grassroots. Show me a quantitative success, please.

http://www.dailypaul.com/node/90775

in louisiana our C4L chapter took control of the tea party movement- thus it wasn't hijacked by neocons.
we are libertarians running our state C4L. it would destroy our coalition of liberty organization to eliminate the C4L in our state.
C4L in louisiana is also leading the charge on recalling Senator Landrieu.
C4L is working with Lee Horne,III and the LALP for fair ballot access in Louisiana.
The C4L in louisiana is hosting most of our tea parties in this state.
the local groups see the C4L as Ron Paul's campaign for liberty. It is our uniting point.
not bad for a year and a half.

[AuH2O]

I can't believe how brainwashed some of you are! C4L has only been around for a year and a half! All of the good that came from C4L came from the grassroots. Show me a quantitative success, please.

Number of new members?

If you claim all the credit is due to grassroots work and C4L has achieved nothing, don't you need to show some evidence of that as well? Support your claim empirically?

[someperson]

The internet has changed everything, not backwards central planning. It has allowed individuals to coordinate with other individuals on a grand scale, spreading ideas and educating with ease. Those individuals of the past were severely handicapped in this regard. If the movement grows (toward the sunlight ;)), I believe it will be due to the internet facilitating individuals interacting with other individuals; it will not be due to individuals following directives from central planners.

[fj45lvr]

this movement had been a few people here and there working as self-directed local groups since before i was born. we got no where. and that is where we will go without a organized national group to facilitate national activities.

Why do we need a "national" group when we could take over a sovereign state?? Forget about the confederation and focus on the states. The states will eventually pull the plug on the confederation which has gone terribly wrong. We need competition in governance and examples for others to follow....the "nation" will never be won because the enemy has too much control of too many controlling aspects (foremost money).

[fj45lvr]

The internet has changed everything, not backwards central planning. It has allowed individuals to coordinate with other individuals on a grand scale, spreading ideas and educating with ease. Those individuals of the past were severely handicapped in this regard.

this is the truth!! you know they want to push this genie back in the bottle it came from.

[__27__]

http://www.dailypaul.com/node/90775

in louisiana our C4L chapter took control of the tea party movement- thus it wasn't hijacked by neocons.
we are libertarians running our state C4L. it would destroy our coalition of liberty organization to eliminate the C4L in our state.
C4L in louisiana is also leading the charge on recalling Senator Landrieu.
C4L is working with Lee Horne,III and the LALP for fair ballot access in Louisiana.
The C4L in louisiana is hosting most of our tea parties in this state.
the local groups see the C4L as Ron Paul's campaign for liberty. It is our uniting point.
not bad for a year and a half.

What you are discussing is LOCAL grassroots, NOT C4L national. Are you really suggesting that without C4L none of these people in LA would care about liberty?

[torchbearer]

What you are discussing is LOCAL grassroots, NOT C4L national. Are you really suggesting that without C4L none of these people in LA would care about liberty?

funny- we had a monster of a local group with our LALP and we weren't able to do any of that shit for 15 years.
and to show the difference ron paul makes. the guys from the LALP led the meetups that allowed us to win the louisiana caucus for ron paul.
it is ron paul's campaign for liberty. the name alone that allows us to organize locally. the LALP, the LACP, the 9/12, the tea partiers- etc could not unite the other groups under their banner.
we can't unite these people under any other banner.

what i love most is seeing neophytes on this site try to tell me "how it is" when i've been in the fucking trenches for 15 years.
All you fuckers encouraging this crap are douche bags.
but on the other hand, i enjoy watching people tear all this shit down because you are at least earning the ass fucking you will continue to get.

[__27__]

funny- we had a monster of a local group with our LALP and we weren't able to do any of that shit for 15 years.
and to show the difference ron paul makes. the guys from the LALP led the meetups that allowed us to win the louisiana caucus for ron paul.
it is ron paul's campaign for liberty. the name alone that allows us to organize locally. the LALP, the LACP, the 9/12, the tea partiers- etc could not unite the other groups under their banner.
we can't unite these people under any other banner.

what i love most is seeing neophytes on this site try to tell me "how it is" when i've been in the fucking trenches for 15 years.
All you fuckers encouraging this crap are douche bags.
but on the other hand, i enjoy watching people tear all this shit down because you are at least earning the ass fucking you will continue to get.

Blah blah blah, I did this, I did this, I did this. You guys are all stupid. If bringing warmongering authoritarian statists is what grows C4L then it needs to be done! Heil!!

Wait, did you just say that LALP led the meetups that led to winning the LA caucus for Ron Paul? I call shenanigans. That is physically impossible, C4L did not exist at that point in time, so it was simply not possible for you to have done anything positive for the liberty movement without them.

[torchbearer]

Blah blah blah, I did this, I did this, I did this. You guys are all stupid. If bringing warmongering authoritarian statists is what grows C4L then it needs to be done! Heil!!

Wait, did you just say that LALP led the meetups that led to winning the LA caucus for Ron Paul? I call shenanigans. That is physically impossible, C4L did not exist at that point in time, so it was simply not possible for you to have done anything positive for the liberty movement without them.

ok- you have confirmed your mental retardness.
the LALP central committee members led the meetups that won our caucus for Ron Paul. it was these people who started our current C4L chapter.
But before there was Ron Paul's Campaign for Liberty there was Ron Paul's campaign for liberty.
In both cases, we were able to unite all the local groups under Ron Paul's banner.

[__27__]

ok- you have confirmed your mental retardness.
the LALP central committee members led the meetups that won our caucus for Ron Paul. it was these people who started our current C4L chapter.
But before there was Ron Paul's Campaign for Liberty there was Ron Paul's campaign for liberty.
In both cases, we were able to unite all the local groups under Ron Paul's banner.

It was the PEOPLE in your LALP, NOT the non existent C4L national board that brought you together and made the progress. If the C4L national board implodes today THE PEOPLE IN YOUR LALP ARE STILL THERE. What is with your infatuation with belonging to a collective to fight for liberty?

[RCA]

It was the PEOPLE in your LALP, NOT the non existent C4L national board that brought you together and made the progress. If the C4L national board implodes today THE PEOPLE IN YOUR LALP ARE STILL THERE. What is with your infatuation with belonging to a collective to fight for liberty?

The logo? I don't know.

[torchbearer]

It was the PEOPLE in your LALP, NOT the non existent C4L national board that brought you together and made the progress. If the C4L national board implodes today THE PEOPLE IN YOUR LALP ARE STILL THERE. What is with your infatuation with belonging to a collective to fight for liberty?

our C4L group does its own thing. that is true.
but it is viewed as Ron Paul's organization. That is the key.
The banner alone is that important because people are that fucking stupid.
With the banner LALP- we couldn't get the CP or any other group to unite for a common purpose. But under Ron Paul's banner we were able to move mountains in this state.
The national organization was instrumental in helping us organize for HR1207.
they gave us everything we needed. which is huge since most of us are broke.

It has nothing to do with a collective. It has everything to do with humans and their nature. If I could unite all this people on just an intellectual, individual basis- i'd love to do that-
but that isn't happening, didn't happen and won't happen.

you anarchist have never dealt in reality and maybe that is because you've never dealt with reality.
but like i said earlier- this shit is sadistically funny to me.

I have a place i can go that is similar to Gault's gulch. the rest of your fuckers enjoy your nightmare while you fight over stupid shit.

[torchbearer]

The logo? I don't know.

you are very close in your answer. it really is that shallow of a reason.

[Immortal Technique]

Think long term :P

[MsDoodahs]

But before there was Ron Paul's Campaign for Liberty there was Ron Paul's campaign for liberty.
In both cases, we were able to unite all the local groups under Ron Paul's banner.

So, by your own words - we DO NOT NEED the CFL.

[torchbearer]

So, by your own words - we DO NOT NEED the CFL.

except they do provide materials and other things that would require funds we don't have. that is the only difference.

[LittleLightShining]

except they do provide materials and other things that would require funds we don't have. that is the only difference.

Really? Like what? We don't get anything from national up here.

[torchbearer]

Really? Like what? We don't get anything from national up here.

have you asked?

[LittleLightShining]

have you asked?

Uh, yeah. Many times, especially right around last April. Wasn't expecting much since they wouldn't spend 1 penny in VT during the PCC and we started raising our own money to produce and air radio and newspaper ads.

So what is it that you guys are getting?

[AuH2O]

So, by your own words - we DO NOT NEED the CFL.

Okay, then you don't have to use them. Sheesh.

I don't see how it helps you or liberty to relentlessly try to tear them down though.

[paulitics]

Pointless and petty bashfest going on in here.

[rancher89]

We bought stuff from the store. Coordinator's discount helped, but you can buy the stuff if you want......

[torchbearer]

Uh, yeah. Many times, especially right around last April. Wasn't expecting much since they wouldn't spend 1 penny in VT during the PCC and we started raising our own money to produce and air radio and newspaper ads.

So what is it that you guys are getting?

it wasn't anything to do with commercials, what we recieved were hand-outs and petitions. we were provided with anything we've asked for when it comes to paper hand-outs.
let me PM you Tom Rankin's number, you need to talk to him. He is our state coordinator. He has a good working relationship with nationals.
Of course, if I was C4L and I saw the shit you posted here- i wouldn't send you shit either.

[Peace&Freedom]

So, by your own words - we DO NOT NEED the CFL.

This is the essential point. It is Paul and the movement that is getting things done, CFL was only along for the ride. CFL was born wrong (initially funded from leftover Paul '08 campaign funds that should have been used for a fall Presidential 3rd party run), developed wrong (would not address grassroots concerns and correct identified problems dating back to the campaign), and has ended up wrong (supporting pro-war neocon slime, still keeping most people out of the communications loop). We can do better than this, and have, as a decentralized group.

[LittleLightShining]

it wasn't anything to do with commercials, what we recieved were hand-outs and petitions. we were provided with anything we've asked for when it comes to paper hand-outs.
let me PM you Tom Rankin's number, you need to talk to him. He is our state coordinator. He has a good working relationship with nationals.
Of course, if I was C4L and I saw the shit you posted here- i wouldn't send you shit either.

Dude, this has been a long time coming. Mr "Send Me Money I'm Running For Office Oh Wait Nevermind Thanks For The Cash, Though".

What I wanted was C4L slim jims and 1207 handouts and petitions for the tea party that I organized.

[rancher89]

it wasn't anything to do with commercials, what we recieved were hand-outs and petitions. we were provided with anything we've asked for when it comes to paper hand-outs.
let me PM you Tom Rankin's number, you need to talk to him. He is our state coordinator. He has a good working relationship with nationals.
Of course, if I was C4L and I saw the shit you posted here- i wouldn't send you shit either.

We never knew that there were handouts we could ask for and get for free???

I BOUGHT flyers and handouts.......out of my own pocket.

Did you have to know someone to get them??? I didn't think I was on the "let's don't tell her..." list????

[MsDoodahs]

This is the essential point. It is Paul and the movement that is getting things done, CFL was only along for the ride. CFL was born wrong (initially funded from leftover Paul '08 campaign funds that should have been used for a fall Presidential 3rd party run), developed wrong (would not address grassroots concerns and correct identified problems dating back to the campaign), and has ended up wrong (supporting pro-war neocon slime, still keeping most people out of the communications loop). We can do better than this, and have, as a decentralized group.



Agree, 100%.

[torchbearer]

We never knew that there were handouts we could ask for and get for free???

I BOUGHT flyers and handouts.......out of my own pocket.

Did you have to know someone to get them??? I didn't think I was on the "let's don't tell her..." list????

I take it that Tom gets them from Debbie.

[MsDoodahs]

So let me get this straight - CERTAIN people can get things from CFL but CERTAIN people can't.

Some great org CFL has going there. :rolleyes:

[torchbearer]

This is the essential point. It is Paul and the movement that is getting things done, CFL was only along for the ride. CFL was born wrong (initially funded from leftover Paul '08 campaign funds that should have been used for a fall Presidential 3rd party run), developed wrong (would not address grassroots concerns and correct identified problems dating back to the campaign), and has ended up wrong (supporting pro-war neocon slime, still keeping most people out of the communications loop). We can do better than this, and have, as a decentralized group.

I challenge all of the negative nancies in this thread to do better themselves.
that would be more productive that tearing down all our candidates and our national organization.
i could respect that approach.

as in people starting threads- "An alternative to C4L that I'm starting"

[torchbearer]

So let me get this straight - CERTAIN people can get things from CFL but CERTAIN people can't.

Some great org CFL has going there. :rolleyes:

I think that goes for any organization.
If you piss off people- you don't get shit. If you work with people, they work with you.

THis thread will cause a lot of people not to work with each other.
Works out for the big government crowd.

[torchbearer]

Dude, this has been a long time coming. Mr "Send Me Money I'm Running For Office Oh Wait Nevermind Thanks For The Cash, Though".

What I wanted was C4L slim jims and 1207 handouts and petitions for the tea party that I organized.

I don't know. I PMed you Tom's number.
He can help you if you want the help.

[RCA]

Someone help me figure this out. Exactly how is attacking sovereign individuals for speaking out against an organization and then leaving said organization in any way, shape or form libertarian regardless if they are "correct" or not?

[MsDoodahs]

I'm not tearing down OUR candidates.

Ken Buck is NOT OUR candidate.

Maybe YOU support the warmongering, hate crime prosecuting SOB but I for one DO NOT.

[MsDoodahs]

If you piss off people- you don't get shit. If you work with people, they work with you.



Has CFL ever heeded that advice?

[rancher89]

Really, seriously, as far as I know I didn't piss off anyone.

I didn't start speaking out until I stepped down. I didn't do anything, that I know of, that Deb H disapproved of until Nov.

I invited Cindy Shehan to our endthefed rally in Nov, lots of people loved the idea, there were of course a few people that didn't and didn't see the point. Deb H was one of them. All she ever said though was that it would come back and bite me in the butt.

Not knowing that I could ask for free materials, is just, well, disappointing.

[torchbearer]

I'm not tearing down OUR candidates.

Ken Buck is NOT OUR candidate.

Maybe YOU support the warmongering, hate crime prosecuting SOB but I for one DO NOT.

I wasn't talking about you, specifically. I actually like(love as a human being) you.
I was talking about this in general-

in the past month i have seen -
Ron Paul is a traitor (for endorsing republicans)
C4L is really a neocon scam (for buying a politician that would be beholden to them financially)
Schiff is a neocon (because he would defend this country if it were attacked)
Rand Paul is a traitor because he wanted to keep gitmo or some crap like that.

[torchbearer]

Really, seriously, as far as I know I didn't piss off anyone.

I didn't start speaking out until I stepped down. I didn't do anything, that I know of, that Deb H disapproved of until Nov.

I invited Cindy Shehan to our endthefed rally in Nov, lots of people loved the idea, there were of course a few people that didn't and didn't see the point. Deb H was one of them. All she ever said though was that it would come back and bite me in the butt.

Not knowing that I could ask for free materials, is just, well, disappointing.

C4L ask us to do something. (like getting HR1207 sponsorship)
we tell them, we need things to get it done.
they provide what is available.

if your group could afford it- that allowed those resources to be used for groups that couldn't afford it.

[rancher89]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by MsDoodahs
I'm not tearing down OUR candidates.


Quote:
I was talking about this in general-

in the past month i have seen -
Ron Paul is a traitor (for endorsing republicans)
C4L is really a neocon scam (for buying a politician that would be beholden to them financially)
Schiff is a neocon (because he would defend this country if it were attacked)
Rand Paul is a traitor because he wanted to keep gitmo or some crap like that.
Unquote
__________________



I've done none of the above

[JK/SEA]

Is John Tate, Michael Steele's right hand man? and when will the announcement be made that CFL is merging with the GOP? they should make it official soon.

[rancher89]

C4L ask us to do something. (like getting HR1207 sponsorship)
we tell them, we need things to get it done.
they provide what is available.

if your group could afford it- that allowed those resources to be used for groups that couldn't afford it.

They provided templetes for petitions and said go for it. Period

[torchbearer]

Has CFL ever heeded that advice?

do you think they would purposely try to piss off their donors?
or would it be more likely that it was a mishap?

[torchbearer]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I've done none of the above

Didn't say you did, but some people in this thread have.

[pacelli]

Is John Tate, Michael Steele's right hand man? and when will the announcement be made that CFL is merging with the GOP? they should make it official soon.

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:QULzwo9Ya3NXqM:http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs152.snc1/5653_97615274613_15271979613_1882065_5835410_n.jpg


President John Tate says, "The C4L polo shirt is my favorite item from the store!"

[torchbearer]

I challenge all of the negative nancies in this thread to do better themselves.
that would be more productive that tearing down all our candidates and our national organization.
i could respect that approach.

as in people starting threads- "An alternative to C4L that I'm starting"

I'm quoting my own post because not one person in this thread that is bitching about the C4L has done anything to "do it better"
If the C4L is doing it wrong- then do it better. it would benefit the liberty movement and would be more productive than the 90 threads bitching about the C4L.

waiting for one of you keyboard jockeys to "git 'r dun"

[rancher89]

I'm quoting my own post because not one person in this thread that is bitching about the C4L has done anything to "do it better"
If the C4L is doing it wrong- then do it better. it would benefit the liberty movement and would be more productive than the 90 threads bitching about the C4L.

waiting for one of you keyboard jockeys to "git 'r dun"

LOL, we've BEEN on our own!

[RCA]

I'm quoting my own post because not one person in this thread that is bitching about the C4L has done anything to "do it better"
If the C4L is doing it wrong- then do it better. it would benefit the liberty movement and would be more productive than the 90 threads bitching about the C4L.

waiting for one of you keyboard jockeys to "git 'r dun"

What the hell are you talking about? The grassroots gave FREAKIN' BIRTH to C4L. Without us there would be no C4L.

[MsDoodahs]

Torch.

1. I've never said any of those things about our candidates.

2. CFL has never heeded that advice - they don't LISTEN to the grassroots. Never have, and I see no evidence that they ever will.

3. This ad debacle is NOT a mistake.

[torchbearer]

LOL, we've BEEN on our own!

I'm talking about starting a national organization.
you've been organizing all the local liberty groups for national initiatives?

[torchbearer]

What the hell are you talking about? The grassroots gave FREAKIN' BIRTH to C4L. Without us there would be no C4L.

i can speak only for my state- that without the C4L- us activist couldn't have moved people in one direction at one time.
i've already explained this in this very thread. please read. thank you.

[rancher89]

Done the best I can, most of our work has been for national issues like HR 1207, the fed, real ID

We're changing tack, we're concentrating on our state from now on

[torchbearer]

Torch.

1. I've never said any of those things about our candidates.

2. CFL has never heeded that advice - they don't LISTEN to the grassroots. Never have, and I see no evidence that they ever will.

3. This ad debacle is NOT a mistake.

I already said- i know you didn't say those things about our candidates.
the CFL has heeded our advice and has worked on our conditions in this state. don't know how other states interact.

and number 3 is your opinion since you weren't there. be honest.

[torchbearer]

Done the best I can, most of our work has been for national issues like HR 1207, the fed, real ID

We're changing tack, we're concentrating on our state from now on

we've been focusing on our state. that is the whole point of having a STATE chapter.

[rancher89]

LOLOLOL

Most of our "people" refuse to even log into the C4L site, we do it all through meetup and phone calls...there won't be a big change here

[Promontorium]

I'm not buying this "purists are ruining our cause" nonsense. Perhaps in certain circumstances, but the majority of the complaints about C4L at this time are apolitical. They are acting without consultation or transparency. They have gone rogue, and when people here tried to rein them in and find out what they were doing, the response was basically "we don't care, we're not sorry, we're doing this with or without you."

I left the C4L. Not because they literally promoted a pro-war candidate, but because they didn't ask anyone if this was a good idea, and they've done nothing but bullshit and pussyfoot about the issue. Call it what you want, they did rally 350K to run a campaign ad for that man. NONE of the money C4L channels is actually theirs, they make no money, they take money. Does it matter that a group in Colorado provided the cash? No, it is about the organization and its principles. It's the point Ron Paul made during the election when asked why he wouldn't return money from a white supremacist, because he was going to keep doing what he set out to do. C4L is taking money from the organization, and doing what they want C4L to do. C4L sold out. And they are promising to sell out a whole lot more, all they want is more money to do it. Can I hire C4L for my next birthday party? Can I hire C4L to do my taxes? Where do the prostitutes draw the line?

Many C4L staff have come out saying "if you want a say in C4L, you need to volunteer, you need to become a representative, you need to..."

This is a pitfall, and it is entirely wrong as a point. When we want representation from the government, do we expect we must work for the government? NO WE PAY FOR THE REPRESENTATION, DO YOUR JOB, LISTEN. I shouldn't have to run my county in order to get a word in edge wise. That is an absurd tactic. You C4L staffers are basically saying, C4L only listens to the C4L, no one else, not even financial donors have a say. C4L is officially saying they only want to work with their own. The massive rebellion by people that thought they were a part of something bigger is logical.

This isn't politics. This isn't purism. This is the invisble hand.

[torchbearer]

LOLOLOL

Most of our "people" refuse to even log into the C4L site, we do it all through meetup and phone calls...there won't be a big change here

same here. imagine that.
we use the superficial C4L label to unite people to achieve liberty goals in our state. OMG>

[torchbearer]

I'm not buying this "purists are ruining our cause" nonsense. Perhaps in certain circumstances, but the majority of the complaints about C4L at this time are apolitical. They are acting without consultation or transparency. They have gone rogue, and when people here tried to rein them in and find out what they were doing, the response was basically "we don't care, we're not sorry, we're doing this with or without you."

I left the C4L. Not because they literally promoted a pro-war candidate, but because they didn't ask anyone if this was a good idea, and they've done nothing but bullshit and pussyfoot about the issue. Call it what you want, they did rally 350K to run a campaign ad for that man. NONE of the money C4L channels is actually theirs, they make no money, they take money. Does it matter that a group in Colorado provided the cash? No, it is about the organization and its principles. It's the point Ron Paul made during the election when asked why he wouldn't return money from a white supremacist, because he was going to keep doing what he set out to do. C4L is taking money from the organization, and doing what they want C4L to do. C4L sold out. And they are promising to sell out a whole lot more, all they want is more money to do it. Can I hire C4L for my next birthday party? Can I hire C4L to do my taxes? Where do the prostitutes draw the line?

Many C4L staff have come out saying "if you want a say in C4L, you need to volunteer, you need to become a representative, you need to..."

This is a pitfall, and it is entirely wrong as a point. When we want representation from the government, do we expect we must work for the government? NO WE PAY FOR THE REPRESENTATION, DO YOUR JOB, LISTEN. I shouldn't have to run my county in order to get a word in edge wise. That is an absurd tactic. You C4L staffers are basically saying, C4L only listens to the C4L, no one else, not even financial donors have a say. C4L is officially saying they only want to work with their own. The massive rebellion by people that thought they were a part of something bigger is logical.

This isn't politics. This isn't purism. This is the invisble hand.

You don't have to "buy" it, but you will have to suffer its consequences.

[rancher89]

Torchbearer, we were too, but we were working on what the C4L wanted us to do also. We're just putting more emphasis on the State now.

Many of us here in NC have worked very hard to do all the things we thought would help us further the "cause."

I'm not throwing snowballs here, I've really tried to do probably too much as a state coordinator.

sigh

[rancher89]

i'm not buying this "purists are ruining our cause" nonsense. Perhaps in certain circumstances, but the majority of the complaints about c4l at this time are apolitical. They are acting without consultation or transparency. They have gone rogue, and when people here tried to rein them in and find out what they were doing, the response was basically "we don't care, we're not sorry, we're doing this with or without you."

i left the c4l. Not because they literally promoted a pro-war candidate, but because they didn't ask anyone if this was a good idea, and they've done nothing but bullshit and pussyfoot about the issue. Call it what you want, they did rally 350k to run a campaign ad for that man. None of the money c4l channels is actually theirs, they make no money, they take money. does it matter that a group in colorado provided the cash? No, it is about the organization and its principles. It's the point ron paul made during the election when asked why he wouldn't return money from a white supremacist, because he was going to keep doing what he set out to do. C4l is taking money from the organization, and doing what they want c4l to do. c4l sold out. And they are promising to sell out a whole lot more, all they want is more money to do it. Can i hire c4l for my next birthday party? Can i hire c4l to do my taxes? Where do the prostitutes draw the line?

Many c4l staff have come out saying "if you want a say in c4l, you need to volunteer, you need to become a representative, you need to..."

this is a pitfall, and it is entirely wrong as a point. When we want representation from the government, do we expect we must work for the government? No we pay for the representation, do your job, listen. I shouldn't have to run my county in order to get a word in edge wise. That is an absurd tactic. You c4l staffers are basically saying, c4l only listens to the c4l, no one else, not even financial donors have a say. C4l is officially saying they only want to work with their own. The massive rebellion by people that thought they were a part of something bigger is logical.

This isn't politics. This isn't purism. This is the invisble hand.

+1776

[RCA]

I think a lot of confusion can be cleared away by remembering that it was not Ron Paul the man that got us all together, but rather Ron Paul's message. The message was there long before Ron Paul, he just happened to be able to deliver the message more effectively than others in recent times. This may take away some of the C4L mystique that some of you still seem to be grasping to.

[torchbearer]

Torchbearer, we were too, but we were working on what the C4L wanted us to do also. We're just putting more emphasis on the State now.

Many of us here in NC have worked very hard to do all the things we thought would help us further the "cause."

I'm not throwing snowballs here, I've really tried to do probably too much as a state coordinator.

sigh

it actually works better if you focus on your state first, then add in the national projects as they come along.
that was our problem with the C4l to begin with- everything we wanted to do they had a problem with because it might effect their non-profit status in some way.
we didn't really care about that crap- so we worked out an arrangement that gave us more autonomy and at the same time give us the banner that united our groups.
we have a confederate mindset here. we will also not sacrifice the good for the perfect because no one is perfect.

[rancher89]

same here. imagine that.
we use the superficial C4L label to unite people to achieve liberty goals in our state. OMG>


We've found that using the C4L "superficial" label more of a hindrance than helpful. BUT at least it stood for something. It doesn't now.

[someperson]

We can't really be proposing that one of the few saving graces of the organization is that it is "effective" in redistributing resources, can we? Arbitrary redistribution of resources by central planners, minus bureaucracy cut, is good? Well... at least they aren't stealing the resources they're redistributing. Please support real liberty candidates directly, while actively seeking and supporting worthwhile (to you), individual project chip-ins. Let good ideas prosper; let bad ideas fail.

[torchbearer]

We've found that using the C4L "superficial" label more of a hindrance than helpful. BUT at least it stood for something. It doesn't now.

did you try to unite the constitution party, libertarian party, reform party, 9/12ers, tea partiers and true ron paul republicans/democrats under any other label?

[tpreitzel]

So, by your own words - we DO NOT NEED the CFL.

Apparently, we need the name of "Ron Paul", though. ;)

Basically, the name "Ron Paul" has become an acceptable and RECOGNIZABLE brand for constitutional liberty.

Apparent mistake: Ron creating a top-down organization and associating himself with it.

Possible remedies: Disassociate Ron's name with the C4L. Reorganize the C4L. Create a parallel network (G4L) from the bottom-up and get Ron to associate his name with it also.

[rancher89]

it actually works better if you focus on your state first, then add in the national projects as they come along.
that was our problem with the C4l to begin with- everything we wanted to do they had a problem with because it might effect their non-profit status in some way.
we didn't really care about that crap- so we worked out an arrangement that gave us more autonomy and at the same time give us the banner that united our groups.
we have a confederate mindset here. we will also not sacrifice the good for the perfect because no one is perfect.


Really?

details?

[torchbearer]

Apparently, we need the name of "Ron Paul", though. ;)

Basically, the name "Ron Paul" has become an acceptable and RECOGNIZABLE brand for constitutional liberty.

Apparent mistake: Ron creating a top-down organization and associating himself with it.

Possibly remedies: Disassociate Ron's name with the C4L. Reorganize the C4L. Create a parallel network from the bottom-up and get Ron to associate his name with it also.

then do it. i will respect the person who actually does it.

[torchbearer]

Really?

details?

we have the label and recognition of the C4L, but we are not an "official" chapter.
as in- our state chair will not be paid by the C4L, but we keep their label.
this allows us to do whatever we want without it being put on their non-profit reports.

[MsDoodahs]

did you try to unite the constitution party, libertarian party, reform party, 9/12ers, tea partiers and true ron paul republicans/democrats under any other label?



And how exactly was CFL doing that, Torch?

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

When logged in there is a "settings" area for your account. In that page is a small text "Do you want to delete your campaign for liberty account? click this link"

In the future, belove Ron Paul supporters, it would be wise to avoid such emotional political revivals.

[RCA]

we have the label and recognition of the C4L, but we are not an "official" chapter.
as in- our state chair will not be paid by the C4L, but we keep their label.
this allows us to do whatever we want without it being put on their non-profit reports.

We need their label, but we do what we want?

Mmmmkay.

[LittleLightShining]

I challenge all of the negative nancies in this thread to do better themselves.
that would be more productive that tearing down all our candidates and our national organization.
i could respect that approach.

as in people starting threads- "An alternative to C4L that I'm starting"Come to VT and ask around about VT Campaign For Liberty. We did EVERYTHING here without ANY help from national.


I don't know. I PMed you Tom's number.
He can help you if you want the help.I'm done with C4L national. I'm continuing to focus on VT.


I wasn't talking about you, specifically. I actually like(love as a human being) you.
I was talking about this in general-

in the past month i have seen -
Ron Paul is a traitor (for endorsing republicans)
C4L is really a neocon scam (for buying a politician that would be beholden to them financially)
Schiff is a neocon (because he would defend this country if it were attacked)
Rand Paul is a traitor because he wanted to keep gitmo or some crap like that.I have done none of the bolded.


C4L ask us to do something. (like getting HR1207 sponsorship)
we tell them, we need things to get it done.
they provide what is available.

if your group could afford it- that allowed those resources to be used for groups that couldn't afford it.We got our entire delegation on board with our own resources. Printing petitions, slim jims, writing letters to the editor, I was a guest on a few radio shows talking about it. I called my fackin rep every day for a month to get him to sign. We afforded it because we had to. We had no choice. We had been turned down before.

Even after we got our whole delegation on board we got NO recognition from National. Did any of Debbie Wells' states get a whole delegation?


They provided templetes for petitions and said go for it. PeriodUs, too.

[rancher89]

did you try to unite the constitution party, libertarian party, reform party, 9/12ers, tea partiers and true ron paul republicans/democrats under any other label?

It was impossible, under any label.

The CP would not work with the LP; the LP had trouble working with themselves; as far as I know there were no reform party people; the 9/12 people, in parts of the state have been receptive, in others we're poison; the tea partier's can't get past the war issue mostly......

In all of the above groups, except the reform party, we were able to find common ground, but not at the state level, only in pockets.

[torchbearer]

Really?

details?

check your PM, i sent you some info.

[torchbearer]

We need their label, but we do what we want?

Mmmmkay.

yes, that is how it works because they need us as much as we need them.
it is a beneficial relationship.

[torchbearer]

And how exactly was CFL doing that, Torch?
I can send you Tom Rankins number and you two can talk about how the CFL unites the groups in louisiana.

[rancher89]

we have the label and recognition of the C4L, but we are not an "official" chapter.
as in- our state chair will not be paid by the C4L, but we keep their label.
this allows us to do whatever we want without it being put on their non-profit reports.

We were'nt official either, we were not chartered---- Sorry if I'm not getting it, but were really pressured about the logo stuff and not supporting candidates and a combination of both. I don't understand how your state organization was different from ours???

[torchbearer]

We were'nt official either, we were not chartered---- Sorry if I'm not getting it, but were really pressured about the logo stuff and not supporting candidates and a combination of both. I don't understand how your state organization was different from ours???

maybe because we told them this is how we are going to operate, take it or leave it.

[RCA]

I can send you Tom Rankins number and you two can talk about how the CFL unites the groups in louisiana.

This secrecy business is part of the problem.

[MsDoodahs]

This secrecy business is part of the problem.

lol, exactly.

[rancher89]

maybe because we told them this is how we are going to operate, take it or leave it.

I was told if we did this we couldn't use the logo or name, copyrighted use only.

Lawsuit country. we backed down.

Are you telling me that you guys went toe to toe and they backed down???

[LittleLightShining]

then do it. i will respect the person who actually does it.
Oh boy oh boy oh boy! Really?

Maybe the best thing for this movement is not to keep coming up with these behemoth organizations.

I remember talking to an acquaintance who is a lobbyist in VT. She said that when people go to testify on bills if they belong to a number of groups they should put their name down separately for each group. It has a bigger impact that way, the legislators know you're there bring info in for and back out to a LOT of people.


we have the label and recognition of the C4L, but we are not an "official" chapter.
as in- our state chair will not be paid by the C4L, but we keep their label.
this allows us to do whatever we want without it being put on their non-profit reports.But if you're not incorporated you can't raise your own money. You can get contributions for projects but no donations. So then I guess that lets your group there cry to national how you have no money and you can get freebies for your projects. The C4L welfare program?

[LittleLightShining]

maybe because we told them this is how we are going to operate, take it or leave it.Oh, so it's ok for you guys to be bold but everyone else is supposed ti kiss ass so they can get what they need? I'm calling you out for bullshit, torch. You can't have it both ways. Go post a thread about lizard people.


I was told if we did this we couldn't use the logo or name, copyrighted use only.

Lawsuit country. we backed down.

Are you telling me that you guys went toe to toe and they backed down???Same here. We made our own materials but not using the C4L logo.

[RCA]

I still don't get this story. The C4L is needed because without them we couldn't have _______.

-or-

The C4L let us do what we want and we only used their banner as an "agent of attraction".

[torchbearer]

I was told if we did this we couldn't use the logo or name, copyrighted use only.

Lawsuit country. we backed down.

Are you telling me that you guys went toe to toe and they backed down???

yes. i was co-chair for the first six months. tom would call me up and tell me about the C4L complaining about our local activities(because we told them what we were doing). I specifically told tom that we were going to do this our way or they weren't going to have a C4L chapter in louisiana.
they couldn't have us as official C4L staff because we were breaking their non-profit rules.

I told Tom- we are going to do what we want to do. What do we need to do to get out from under their non-profit status.
Tom did the phone call to debbie and when he returned my call he gave me the run down.
we were "unofficial", but we could keep the name. (we don't use the logo)
and now we do whatever we want as far as state activities.
you should call Tom and ask him for more details.
i resigned from state-coordinator. i don't have the time right now to dedicate.

[torchbearer]

Oh, so it's ok for you guys to be bold but everyone else is supposed ti kiss ass so they can get what they need? I'm calling you out for bullshit, torch. You can't have it both ways. Go post a thread about lizard people.

Same here. We made our own materials but not using the C4L logo.

we work with people, you work against them.
you are advocating people drop the C4L, we gave them the best option for influence in our state.
there was no one else but us.

[Athan]

Done. A sad day for me.

:(

[torchbearer]

Oh boy oh boy oh boy! Really?

Maybe the best thing for this movement is not to keep coming up with these behemoth organizations.

I remember talking to an acquaintance who is a lobbyist in VT. She said that when people go to testify on bills if they belong to a number of groups they should put their name down separately for each group. It has a bigger impact that way, the legislators know you're there bring info in for and back out to a LOT of people.

But if you're not incorporated you can't raise your own money. You can get contributions for projects but no donations. So then I guess that lets your group there cry to national how you have no money and you can get freebies for your projects. The C4L welfare program?

call tom. that is the best thing you can do.
he is a very nice guy with a big heart so please don't be a bitch to him.

[tpreitzel]

then do it. i will respect the person who actually does it.

IMO, creating a new parallel structure is best as reforming a top-down organization will only temporarily resolve a problem. A year from now, another problem will arise.

Maybe, convince the local chapters of the C4L to participate in a new G4L organization specifically designed to keep the majority of power local including raising funds *. Use available networks, e.g. the internet, to coordinate activities on a local, state, regional and national level. Invite Ron to participate in these events and thereby distribute the new brand, the G4L, in the process.


* Examine various models

[LittleLightShining]

yes. i was co-chair for the first six months. tom would call me up and tell me about the C4L complaining about our local activities(because we told them what we were doing). I specifically told tom that we were going to do this our way or they weren't going to have a C4L chapter in louisiana.
they couldn't have us as official C4L staff because we were breaking their non-profit rules.Bullshit.

[torchbearer]

Bullshit.

call tom. i pmed you the number.

[torchbearer]

IMO, creating a new parallel structure is best as reforming a top-down organization will only temporarily resolve a problem. A year from now, another problem will arise.

Maybe, convince the local chapters of the C4L to participate in a new G4L organization specifically designed to keep the majority of power local including raising funds *. Use available networks, e.g. the internet, to coordinate activities on a local, state, regional and national level. Invite Ron to participate in these events and thereby distribute the new brand, the G4L, in the process.


* Examine various models

do it. i will not stand against you in your efforts.

[LittleLightShining]

call tom. that is the best thing you can do.
he is a very nice guy with a big heart so please don't be a bitch to him.

Fack you, torch. You have no idea what kind of person I am. You've had a problem with me since you took sides between me and rph. We worked it out like adults and for some reason you can't get past it.

I have no desire to call Tom though I'll pass the info on to my state coordinator. I'm done with C4L until Tate, Hopper and Rothfeld are gone.

[LittleLightShining]

call tom. i pmed you the number.

You are not STAFF. You were never staff. Being staff implies being PAID.

[JoshLowry]

Take it to private messages please.

[torchbearer]

You are not STAFF. You were never staff. Being staff implies being PAID.

i never said we were staff, i said we couldn't be staff because we were breaking their non-profit rules.
we were suppose to be paid staff after we got everything together. we decided to forego that option for freedom to operate.

[LittleLightShining]

i never said we were staff, i said we couldn't be staff because we were breaking their non-profit rules.
we were suppose to be paid staff after we got everything together. we decided to forego that option for freedom to operate.

You have that in writing?

[torchbearer]

You've had a problem with me since you took sides between me and rph.

i have no memory of what you are talking about-
i just know that whenever there is a thread bashing someone in our movement- you are there to pile it on.
it is your passion in life obviously.

[torchbearer]

You have that in writing?

no. we didn't have anything in writing. never did. didn't have anything in writing that we were working for the C4L, or that we were the state co-coordinators.
But we were given people's words that was the case and in Louisiana a verbal contract is as binding as a written one.

[LittleLightShining]

Take it to private messages please.

Sorry, just saw this. :o

[purplechoe]

R.i.p. Cfl... :(

[foofighter20x]

purists have yet to realize that when you are in a minority, you should take your wins where you can get them, and fight on to convince the majority of their errors on the issues you haven't won them on yet.

if you can compromise on a half measure for now, take it. and then begin fighting tomorrow to educate and build consensus to get the other half.

it's taken 200 years to get to where we are. the fatal conceit of the purists is to think they are going to change everyone's minds overnight. a ship of state doesn't turn on a dime, folks. it's a barge, not a fighter jet.

it's going to take at least a generation, folks.

[torchbearer]

purists have yet to realize that when you are in a minority, you should take your wins where you can get them, and fight on to convince the majority of their errors on the issues you haven't won them on yet.

if you can compromise on a half measure for now, take it. and then begin fighting tomorrow to educate and build consensus to get the other half.

it's taken 200 years to get to where we are. the fatal conceit of the purists is to think they are going to change everyone's minds overnight. a ship of state doesn't turn on a dime, folks. it's a barge, not a fighter jet.

it's going to take at least a generation, folks.

i appreciate the words of wisdom.
good to see you posting!

[Promontorium]

C4L has been unphased and unapologetic. Here are Just a few individuals venting their frustration and defending their positions. Yet some of you seem bent on bashing them, calling them "purists", torchbearer, you most of all.

No one can make any comment about C4L without your approval or disapproval. How is all your hating on the individuals, in defense of the well to do collective "good" for our cause?

C4L is still doing just fine, and you C4L lovers can keep raising your 350Ks without us, as you are so proud to have done.


Edit: And your use of the term "purist" is increasingly insulting to me, as I already clearly pointed out, no one is arguing about politics here, so if it's purity, its business purity, and that would make you "pro-corruption". See how I can turn the insult on you too?


If I held a purist view, I'd start with my big ones. I'm anti-religion, pro-choice, anti-political party, and sooo much more. My first step would be to individually declare indepence from this nation, leave it, or die fighting. Really not viable for me right now. So sucks to your purism charges. I love Ron Paul, but philosophically we aren't in the same nation.

I don't vote, or support people or organizations with some purist ideal. I vote and support what I can, that I think will best improve things. C4L is not in this category, and it has nothing to do with politics.

You are failing to convince me, and you are purely insulting.

[purplechoe]

i appreciate the words of wisdom.
good to see you posting!

wisdom? Platonism? go fly a kite!!!

http://webenhanced.lbcc.edu/philml/phil6ml/images/platosCave%20copy.jpg

good luck with your little play...