We Need a Good Old-fashioned All-American TAX REVOLT!

[MN Patriot]

The Tea Party movement seems to be losing momentum this off year election. Ron Paul isn't running for president, and neo-cons seem to be taking over the Tea Party movement.

Rather than having a person to rally around, we need an issue to push to get more supporters. We need to start a true TAX REVOLT, just like the Boston Tea Party was a tax revolt.

There are at least two ways to start a tax revolt:

1) Encourage people to stop paying their taxes, filing frivolous returns, etc. This has proven to be a failure. Many people are in prison going this route, including Peter Schiff's father.

2) Propose outlawing payroll deductions of taxes. Perfectly legal approach. Require each worker to pay a check to the state and federal governments once a year, or perhaps quarterly. I have yet to hear anyone, anywhere make this suggestion. We wouldn't even need to pass, or even introduce legislation, for this to be effective. Just suggesting that employees must save and pay ALL of their taxes, and not have their employer deduct their taxes, will make them aware of how much government costs them.

I've had Republican candidates oppose this idea because "people are too irresponsible to save their money". Welcome to the nanny state, Fidel. No wonder government keeps growing, both parties treat citizens like children. Democrats will obviously oppose this idea. Why? Is it because they recognize government is too expensive?

Are there any candidates brave enough to make this proposal on the campaign trail? This movement started because of the Tea Party and a lot of revolutionary talk about tax revolts. This is how we really start one.

[MN Patriot]

Well, I thought this was a good idea... :confused:

[torchbearer]

have to be careful when talking about such things on public forums.

[t0rnado]

I don't think that simply not paying income taxes would starve the beast. The revenue collected from the income tax is just a fraction of the fiscal budget. They would just print more money and tax us indirectly through inflation if we didn't pay. We would have to end the Fed first.

[Reason]

Have fun with your audit.

I'll stick to less dangerous methods for now.

[Mini-Me]

The Tea Party movement seems to be losing momentum this off year election. Ron Paul isn't running for president, and neo-cons seem to be taking over the Tea Party movement.

Rather than having a person to rally around, we need an issue to push to get more supporters. We need to start a true TAX REVOLT, just like the Boston Tea Party was a tax revolt.

There are at least two ways to start a tax revolt:

1) Encourage people to stop paying their taxes, filing frivolous returns, etc. This has proven to be a failure. Many people are in prison going this route, including Peter Schiff's father.

2) Propose outlawing payroll deductions of taxes. Perfectly legal approach. Require each worker to pay a check to the state and federal governments once a year, or perhaps quarterly. I have yet to hear anyone, anywhere make this suggestion. We wouldn't even need to pass, or even introduce legislation, for this to be effective. Just suggesting that employees must save and pay ALL of their taxes, and not have their employer deduct their taxes, will make them aware of how much government costs them.

I've had Republican candidates oppose this idea because "people are too irresponsible to save their money". Welcome to the nanny state, Fidel. No wonder government keeps growing, both parties treat citizens like children. Democrats will obviously oppose this idea. Why? Is it because they recognize government is too expensive?

Are there any candidates brave enough to make this proposal on the campaign trail? This movement started because of the Tea Party and a lot of revolutionary talk about tax revolts. This is how we really start one.

Since it seems like people might be misunderstanding MN Patriot and this might get sent to Hot Topics (at least) if people continue not reading the OP, I thought I'd better bold the meat of his post, so people know what he's actually suggesting. ;)

Although t0rnado is also right, agitating for ending payroll deductions can only help the situation...and besides, they're unconstitutional in the first place.

[MN Patriot]

have to be careful when talking about such things on public forums.

What a bunch of timid little people in the "Liberty Forest". I thought you people wanted a revolution.

For your information, I proposed these basic ideas as resolutions in our caucuses last week. Proudly put my name on it. I entirely anticipate it to be shot down by the Establishment Republicans during the next step, but this idea needs to get out there.

In fact, I heard Jason Lewis mention this idea on his radio show last week. So this idea is getting out there.

This is the Achilles Heel of the collectivists, in my opinion, and we need to take advantage of it.

[MN Patriot]

I don't think that simply not paying income taxes would starve the beast. The revenue collected from the income tax is just a fraction of the fiscal budget. They would just print more money and tax us indirectly through inflation if we didn't pay. We would have to end the Fed first.

Do both at the same time. End the Fed and abolish the income tax. They created both at the same time.

[MN Patriot]

Since it seems like people might be misunderstanding MN Patriot and this might get sent to Hot Topics (at least) if people continue not reading the OP, I thought I'd better bold the meat of his post, so people know what he's actually suggesting. ;)

Although t0rnado is also right, agitating for ending payroll deductions can only help the situation...and besides, they're unconstitutional in the first place.

Thanks, I'm not advocating doing anything illegal. Proposing legislation to end payroll withholding is legal, as far as I know. Is there such a law that says proposing certain legislation illegal. Yet?

[MN Patriot]

Have fun with your audit.

I'll stick to less dangerous methods for now.

baa!

[Anti Federalist]

I, for one, have been actively pushing the idea of abolishing income withholding.

Let Boobus have to cut a check to Uncle Sucker every month.

Then you would see a tax revolt

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

It seems no one is ready to sacrifice everything for liberty. Until that time comes there is nothing that will turn the tide. Advocation to stay within the bounds of the law (Read: Will of the Tyrants), will achieve nothing, but defeat and enslavement. It is up to each person to come to this realization, but without this realization that you may have to sacrifice your life, and what little actions our masters allow us to partake in (Read: what miniscule freedom we do have now that our masters gift us), we will forever be enslaved.

I am just wondering when are people ready and willing to form local Militias and start practicing Agorism without ceding any Natural Rights. Almighty! Our fore-fathers would be ashamed of us.

[MN Patriot]

It seems no one is ready to sacrifice everything for liberty. Until that time comes there is nothing that will turn the tide. Advocation to stay within the bounds of the law (Read: Will of the Tyrants), will achieve nothing, but defeat and enslavement. It is up to each person to come to this realization, but without this realization that you may have to sacrifice your life, and what little actions our masters allow us to partake in (Read: what miniscule freedom we do have now that our masters gift us), we will forever be enslaved.

I am just wondering when are people ready and willing to form local Militias and start practicing Agorism without ceding any Natural Rights. Almighty! Our fore-fathers would be ashamed of us.

Yes, people have too much to lose to revolt. They have HDTV with hundreds of diversions from reality to take up their time. They get to live in a house the bank owns. If they can afford one, they can buy a new car that depreciates 20% when they drive it off the lot, and pay full coverage insurance for as long as they make payments to the bank for it. They have closets and rooms full of stuff. Why sacrifice any of it for a higher standard of living, when the current standard of living is just fine?

Makes me wonder if the Liberty Movement will eventually fade away if the economy gets better.

[Lovecraftian4Paul]

This thread touches on something very important to where we are as a movement and a "revolution." I'm inclined to agree with those who say you won't see the real fireworks and great changes until segments of the population begin to commit near-illegal acts like refusal to pay their income taxes.

We aren't at that point yet, and it's questionable whether we are at all close to it. People are too comfortable. So, we get watered down protests called Tea Parties that have nothing to do with the original tea party, which was a bold, illegal, and revolutionary act. It's even worse now that the teaocons have taken the lead in these groups. They merely call for less spending and lower taxes, not the abolition of taxes at all.

[furface]

I take the position that the elimination of the income tax should be made one of the top 3 priorities of the Republican Party. It's discouraging the responses I get. Anywhere from "but you don't understand that the real problem is the Illuminati," to "those big corporations should pay more income taxes."

People hit the nail on the head here when bringing up the fact that too many people simply aren't effected by it or else don't realize how effected they are by it.

I think we need to do a better job at getting the message out on how the income tax effects most people in profoundly negative ways.

[Lovecraftian4Paul]

I take the position that the elimination of the income tax should be made one of the top 3 priorities of the Republican Party. It's discouraging the responses I get. Anywhere from "but you don't understand that the real problem is the Illuminati," to "those big corporations should pay more income taxes."

People hit the nail on the head here when bringing up the fact that too many people simply aren't effected by it or else don't realize how effected they are by it.

I think we need to do a better job at getting the message out on how the income tax effects most people in profoundly negative ways.

With this issue, I figure we're facing a generational hurdle. The remaining people who were adults before the Income Tax became the beast it is today are few and far between. There's no longer a living memory in the public of what it was like before this suffocating tax.

This is why we always get butchered by incrementalism. Too many unoriginal "sheep" are unable to imagine freedoms they never knew.

[Old Ducker]

baa!

I could say something, but I'd just piss off a bunch of people and it doesn't matter anyway assuming my opinion is correct. There's one nation's population that really cares about it's liberty and are determined at all cost to demonstrate it.

Guess which one it is?

[Anti Federalist]

this thread touches on something very important to where we are as a movement and a "revolution." i'm inclined to agree with those who say you won't see the real fireworks and great changes until segments of the population begin to commit near-illegal acts like refusal to pay their income taxes.

We aren't at that point yet, and it's questionable whether we are at all close to it. People are too comfortable. So, we get watered down protests called tea parties that have nothing to do with the original tea party, which was a bold, illegal, and revolutionary act. It's even worse now that the teaocons have taken the lead in these groups. They merely call for less spending and lower taxes, not the abolition of taxes at all.

+1776

[furface]

A lot of people are happy having other people pay taxes. It's unfortunate that people in general don't get riled when they see injustice done to other people.

[MN Patriot]

I take the position that the elimination of the income tax should be made one of the top 3 priorities of the Republican Party. It's discouraging the responses I get. Anywhere from "but you don't understand that the real problem is the Illuminati," to "those big corporations should pay more income taxes."

People hit the nail on the head here when bringing up the fact that too many people simply aren't effected by it or else don't realize how effected they are by it.

I think we need to do a better job at getting the message out on how the income tax effects most people in profoundly negative ways.

Yes, I agree. Here are my top 3:
1) Abolish the income tax and replace it with nothing.
2) End the Fed.
3) Privatize and or abolish as many Federal and state government agencies, programs, bureaus, etc as possible.

This is the value of a third party. Having Libertarian candidates saying these things gets the ideas into the public sphere, since Republicans are too scared to suggest any of these.

[furface]

Yes, I agree. Here are my top 3:
1) Abolish the income tax and replace it with nothing.
2) End the Fed.
3) Privatize and or abolish as many Federal and state government agencies, programs, bureaus, etc as possible.

This is the value of a third party. Having Libertarian candidates saying these things gets the ideas into the public sphere, since Republicans are too scared to suggest any of these.

Good list. I think a lot needs to be done before 3rd parties become viable. Instant runoff voting will help, so supporting instant runoff voting is a good thing. Also, there needs to be more engagement across party and ideological lines. In a certain sense, neocon Republicans are worse statists than the leftist of Democrats. I'd trade Dennis Kucinich for Sarah Palin any day of the week.

[LittleLightShining]

The Tea Party movement seems to be losing momentum this off year election. Ron Paul isn't running for president, and neo-cons seem to be taking over the Tea Party movement.

Rather than having a person to rally around, we need an issue to push to get more supporters. We need to start a true TAX REVOLT, just like the Boston Tea Party was a tax revolt.

There are at least two ways to start a tax revolt:

1) Encourage people to stop paying their taxes, filing frivolous returns, etc. This has proven to be a failure. Many people are in prison going this route, including Peter Schiff's father.

2) Propose outlawing payroll deductions of taxes. Perfectly legal approach. Require each worker to pay a check to the state and federal governments once a year, or perhaps quarterly. I have yet to hear anyone, anywhere make this suggestion. We wouldn't even need to pass, or even introduce legislation, for this to be effective. Just suggesting that employees must save and pay ALL of their taxes, and not have their employer deduct their taxes, will make them aware of how much government costs them.

I've had Republican candidates oppose this idea because "people are too irresponsible to save their money". Welcome to the nanny state, Fidel. No wonder government keeps growing, both parties treat citizens like children. Democrats will obviously oppose this idea. Why? Is it because they recognize government is too expensive?

Are there any candidates brave enough to make this proposal on the campaign trail? This movement started because of the Tea Party and a lot of revolutionary talk about tax revolts. This is how we really start one.

Is this happening in your state?


Sec. 1. 32 V.S.A. § 3202(b)(6) is amended to read:

(6) A failure to pay shall not be subject to more than one of the penalties set forth in subdivisions (3), (4), and (5) of this subsection. An additional frivolous tax protest penalty of $1,000.00 may be imposed on a taxpayer who raises objections to an assessment or refund denial based on previously judicially rejected tax-protest arguments, including but not limited to the following:

(A) That taxes are unconstitutional as a taking of property without due process of law;

(B) That Federal reserve notes are not taxable income when paid to a taxpayer because they are not gold or silver and may not be redeemed for gold or silver.

(C) That payment received for labor is a return of capital and not income, or other right-to-labor arguments;

(C) That filing a tax return and payment of tax is voluntary;

(D) That the taxpayer is not a state citizen, only a national citizen, or the reverse;

(E) That there is a right to a jury trial and the right not to incriminate oneself in an administrative appeal.

All of the underlined is a proposed change to the VT statutes. It is being considered for this year's miscellaneous tax bill. I highly suggest, if any of you have not, look at the budget and tax bills coming from your state legislatures. I think we spend way too much time here focused on what's going on in Congress and not enough on what's happening in our own back yards.

The above was sent to me for comment because I organized a tea party. The House Ways and Means Committee asked for the Tea Party response to only section 1. This was a bit of a gift, constituents are not usually sent drafts of legislation for comment. It was also a bit of a setup in that the request deflected attention away from some of the meatier stuff later in the draft.

In addition to the hubbub here I have been diligently working on research exposing fraudulent and irresponsible behavior by legislators in the state of VT. We are also looking into the unholy alliances between certain legislators and non-profit groups within and out of the state. If anyone wants more specific information about what I'm doing and how to do it send me a pm. There are legislators scrambling to cover their fannies right now. I wish I could share more but I can't as it could negatively affect the investigation. That said, if you think Congress is bad, wait til you start looking at your neighbors.

[MN Patriot]

With this issue, I figure we're facing a generational hurdle. The remaining people who were adults before the Income Tax became the beast it is today are few and far between. There's no longer a living memory in the public of what it was like before this suffocating tax.

This is why we always get butchered by incrementalism. Too many unoriginal "sheep" are unable to imagine freedoms they never knew.

When I introduced this proposal for the Republican platform at the caucus, a very old lady, who was accompanied by her husband who had been to every caucus since 1948, said she remembered when there was no state income tax. They had been active in politics even during the Red Scare, but that didn't affect them much apparently. The older generation has bought into the notion of the nanny state, while supporting politicians who denounce it while hypocritically promote it legislatively.

People need to be reminded the Federal income tax didn't exist until 1913. Few people actually paid it until WWII, when payroll withholding was created "temporarily" until the war ended. State income taxes weren't established until the 20 and 30s and later.

[Danke]

People need to be reminded the Federal income tax didn't exist until 1913.

Yes it did. Its roots go back to 1862.

[MN Patriot]

Yes it did. Its roots go back to 1862.

That was temporarily during the Civil War.

Income taxes have been around for at least 800 years: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carucage

I'm sure there have been early income tax schemes. The whole point of this thread is the effect of income taxes. They reduce citizens into slaves of the state.

If you read about carucage, it becomes apparent that leaders through out history have been burdened with extracting wealth from their subjects.

[Truth-Bringer]

1) Encourage people to stop paying their taxes, filing frivolous returns, etc. This has proven to be a failure. Many people are in prison going this route, including Peter Schiff's father.

2) Propose outlawing payroll deductions of taxes. Perfectly legal approach. Require each worker to pay a check to the state and federal governments once a year, or perhaps quarterly. I have yet to hear anyone, anywhere make this suggestion. We wouldn't even need to pass, or even introduce legislation, for this to be effective. Just suggesting that employees must save and pay ALL of their taxes, and not have their employer deduct their taxes, will make them aware of how much government costs them.


A third option:

3) Encourage people sitting on juries to use jury nullification and refuse to convict anyone charge with tax evasion.

[Truth-Bringer]

Yes it did. Its roots go back to 1862.

Right there were temporary income taxes back in the 19th century that were eventually struck down by the Supreme Court.

The present income tax will also be "temporary" - we just haven't found a way to end it yet.

[MN Patriot]

Is this happening in your state?


Sec. 1. 32 V.S.A. § 3202(b)(6) is amended to read:

(6) A failure to pay shall not be subject to more than one of the penalties set forth in subdivisions (3), (4), and (5) of this subsection. An additional frivolous tax protest penalty of $1,000.00 may be imposed on a taxpayer who raises objections to an assessment or refund denial based on previously judicially rejected tax-protest arguments, including but not limited to the following:

(A) That taxes are unconstitutional as a taking of property without due process of law;

(B) That Federal reserve notes are not taxable income when paid to a taxpayer because they are not gold or silver and may not be redeemed for gold or silver.

(C) That payment received for labor is a return of capital and not income, or other right-to-labor arguments;

(C) That filing a tax return and payment of tax is voluntary;

(D) That the taxpayer is not a state citizen, only a national citizen, or the reverse;

(E) That there is a right to a jury trial and the right not to incriminate oneself in an administrative appeal.

All of the underlined is a proposed change to the VT statutes. It is being considered for this year's miscellaneous tax bill. I highly suggest, if any of you have not, look at the budget and tax bills coming from your state legislatures. I think we spend way too much time here focused on what's going on in Congress and not enough on what's happening in our own back yards.

The above was sent to me for comment because I organized a tea party. The House Ways and Means Committee asked for the Tea Party response to only section 1. This was a bit of a gift, constituents are not usually sent drafts of legislation for comment. It was also a bit of a setup in that the request deflected attention away from some of the meatier stuff later in the draft.

In addition to the hubbub here I have been diligently working on research exposing fraudulent and irresponsible behavior by legislators in the state of VT. We are also looking into the unholy alliances between certain legislators and non-profit groups within and out of the state. If anyone wants more specific information about what I'm doing and how to do it send me a pm. There are legislators scrambling to cover their fannies right now. I wish I could share more but I can't as it could negatively affect the investigation. That said, if you think Congress is bad, wait til you start looking at your neighbors.

Wow, they ARE paying attention to us, and are very scared from the looks of it.

I see they haven't mentioned outlawing payroll withholding, so that citizens must personally pay their taxes monthly, quarterly or yearly.

We need candidates suggesting this idea, and to get the ball rolling.

[MN Patriot]

A third option:

3) Encourage people sitting on juries to use jury nullification and refuse to convict anyone charge with tax evasion.

YES! Jury nullification is another tactic that doesn't get enough attention in the Liberty Movement.

[Truth-Bringer]

YES! Jury nullification is another tactic that doesn't get enough attention in the Liberty Movement.

"It is not only [the juror's] right, but his duty...to find the verdict according to his own best understanding, judgment, and conscience, though in direct opposition to the direction of the court." - John Adams, 1771

".....it is usual for the jurors to decide the fact, and to refer the law arising on it to the decision of the judges. But this division of the subject lies with their discretion only. And if the question relate to any point of public liberty, or if it be one of those in which the judges may be suspected of bias, the jury undertake to decide both law and fact." - Thomas Jefferson, "Notes on Virginia," 1782

"Another apprehension [about the French Revolution] is, that a majority cannot be induced to adopt the trial by jury; and I consider that as the only anchor ever yet imagined by man, by which a government can be held to the principles of its constitution...." - Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Tom Paine, 1789

"It is presumed, that juries are the best judges of facts; it is, on the other hand, presumed that courts are the best judges of law. But still both objects are within your power of decision.....you have a right to take it upon yourselves to judge of both, and to determine the law as well as the fact in controversy." - Supreme Court Chief Justice John Jay, Georgia v. Brailsford, 1794

"Jurors should acquit, even against the judge's instruction...if exercising their judgement with discretion and honesty they have a clear conviction that the charge of the court is wrong." - Alexander Hamilton, 1804

"Petty juries, consisting usually of twelve men, attend courts to try matters of fact in civil causes, and to decide both the law and the fact in criminal prosecutions. The decision of a petty jury is called a verdict." - Noah Webster, Dictionary of the English Language, 1828

"If the jury feels the law is unjust, we recognize the undisputed power of the jury to acquit, even if its verdict is contrary to the law as given by a judge, and contrary to the evidence...If the jury feels that the law under which the defendant is accused is unjust, or that exigent circumstances justified the actions of the accused, or for any reason which appeals to their logic or passion, the jury has the power to acquit, and the courts must abide by that decision." - 4th Circuit Court of Appeals, United States v. Moylan, 1969

"[The jury has an] unreviewable and irreversible power...to acquit in disregard of the instructions on the law given by the trial judge...The pages of history shine on instances of the jury's exercise of its prerogative to disregard uncontradicted evidence and instructions of the judge; for example, acquittals under the fugitive slave law." - D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals, Unites States v. Dougherty, 1972

"The jury has the power to bring a verdict in the teeth of both the law and the facts." - Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Horning v. District of Columbia, 1920

"It is universally conceded that a verdict of acquittal, although rendered against the instructions of the judge, is final, and cannot be set aside; and consequently that the jury have the legal power to decide for themselves the law involved in the general issues of guilty or not guilty." - Justices Gray and Shiras, Sparf and Hansen v. United States, 1894, dissent

http://www.crfc.org/americanjury/nullification.html

http://www.fija.org

[Danke]

That was temporarily during the Civil War.

Income taxes have been around for at least 800 years: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carucage

I'm sure there have been early income tax schemes. The whole point of this thread is the effect of income taxes. They reduce citizens into slaves of the state.

If you read about carucage, it becomes apparent that leaders through out history have been burdened with extracting wealth from their subjects.

Wrong.

[MN Patriot]

Wrong.

:confused:

[Danke]

:confused:

Enforcement of the "income" duty was allowed to temporary lapse, but it was never repealed.

[LittleLightShining]

Wow, they ARE paying attention to us, and are very scared from the looks of it.

I see they haven't mentioned outlawing payroll withholding, so that citizens must personally pay their taxes monthly, quarterly or yearly.

We need candidates suggesting this idea, and to get the ball rolling.
I know certain bills, like the texting and popular vote bills sweeping the nation right now, are part of a coordinated effort. I'm curious as to whether or not people in other states are seeing similar verbiage from their legislatures right now.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

I'm just waiting for the citizens of a state to depose their corrupt tyrants, and declare their independance. Food for thought. They are really being blatant lately. How many lines in the sand are you going to draw and redraw?

Oh, so much for the people around here who say paying your taxes are voluntary. Cue Harry Reid also.

[Nemesis]

Well, I thought this was a good idea... :confused:

It is a good idea. Keep the ideas coming, but you must be ready to bite the bullet on this and lead by example.

Sad to say, but true. Every revolution needs a few martyrs.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

It is a good idea. Keep the ideas coming, but you must be ready to bite the bullet on this and lead by example.

Sad to say, but true. Every revolution needs a few martyrs.

I've been thinking about writing up another Declaration of Independance, and have everyone willing to become sovereign individuals and to reclaim our Natural Rights sign it and to deliver it to the tyrants in DC. How many more abuses are we willing to take? How much more tyranny are you willing to endure? How much are you ready to sacrifice? This time it won't be 56 people speaking for everyone, but each individual speaking for themselves, and to come together for the common defense, because I can bet my bottom line that they won't let us go voluntarily.

I'm holding off as of right now, but I'm almost certain within the next two years I will be doing this and becoming a free sovereign individual whether or not the tyrants in DC "allow" me to or not. If only 5,000 are ready to make this sacrifice I think it will ring across the land and all the patriots. We can carve out our own existence with our justly and legitimately acquired property. We can take control of our own destiny once more. If I am but alone, then that must be the course I take, but I hope others would join me.

[mczerone]

I've been thinking about writing up another Declaration of Independance, and have everyone willing to become sovereign individuals and to reclaim our Natural Rights sign it and to deliver it to the tyrants in DC. How many more abuses are we willing to take? How much more tyranny are you willing to endure? How much are you ready to sacrifice? This time it won't be 56 people speaking for everyone, but each individual speaking for themselves, and to come together for the common defense, because I can bet my bottom line that they won't let us go voluntarily.

I'm holding off as of right now, but I'm almost certain within the next two years I will be doing this and becoming a free sovereign individual whether or not the tyrants in DC "allow" me to or not. If only 5,000 are ready to make this sacrifice I think it will ring across the land and all the patriots. We can carve out our own existence with our justly and legitimately acquired property. We can take control of our own destiny once more. If I am but alone, then that must be the course I take, but I hope others would join me.

Sign up: Declaration of a Free Human (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=230418)

[MN Patriot]

It is a good idea. Keep the ideas coming, but you must be ready to bite the bullet on this and lead by example.

Sad to say, but true. Every revolution needs a few martyrs.

Peter Schiff's father, Irwin, is 82 years old and in prison until 2016 for using the argument that we aren't liable for paying taxes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irwin_Schiff It seems I am the only one here that mentions him, even his son who is running as a Liberty candidate doesn't mention him. So much for the martyr thing.

I'm not doing anything illegal. All I am saying we need candidates to propose the outlawing of payroll withholding. Then people need to write a check every month to the government for federal taxes, state taxes, Social Security. I'm telling people to pay their taxes. Every month. Why would the statists oppose that idea? ;)

So, yes, I am leading by example. I submitted this proposal at our Republican caucus last week. I know a few other people did, too.

Every revolution needs some revolutionaries, too. Doesn't mean you have to be executed or blow up stuff. Just find a revolutionary approach to fighting the Establishment.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Peter Schiff's father, Irwin, is 82 years old and in prison until 2016 for using the argument that we aren't liable for paying taxes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irwin_Schiff It seems I am the only one here that mentions him, even his son who is running as a Liberty candidate doesn't mention him. So much for the martyr thing.

I'm not doing anything illegal. All I am saying we need candidates to propose the outlawing of payroll withholding. Then people need to write a check every month to the government for federal taxes, state taxes, Social Security. I'm telling people to pay their taxes. Every month. Why would the statists oppose that idea? ;)

So, yes, I am leading by example. I submitted this proposal at our Republican caucus last week. I know a few other people did, too.

Every revolution needs some revolutionaries, too. Doesn't mean you have to be executed or blow up stuff. Just find a revolutionary approach to fighting the Establishment.

I mention Irwin quite a bit around here, but there are two people who in the name of martyrdom go way beyond Irwin and that is Ed and Elaine Brown.

Like I said, we need a new Declaration of Independence, one that is not 56 people speaking for the body of people. We need an Individual Declaration of Independence. I like what Mczerone has done, but it needs to more clearly enumerate Natural Law, crimes committed by the State, and what we stand for. It is a good starting point.

If you are unwilling to do anything "illegal" and you would rather abide by the tyrants law, than I call you nothing less than a coward. I take umbrage at the fact that people would rather try and stay within the bounds of the law, that very law that enslaves us, than to act as free sovereign individuals living within the moral and rightful bounds of liberty.

As Patrick Henry said...

If this be treason than so be it!

[puppetmaster]

I phink payroll taxes are un-American! Screw timid ,screw the IRS

[mczerone]

I mention Irwin quite a bit around here, but there are two people who in the name of martyrdom go way beyond Irwin and that is Ed and Elaine Brown.

Like I said, we need a new Declaration of Independence, one that is not 56 people speaking for the body of people. We need an Individual Declaration of Independence. I like what Mczerone has done, but it needs to more clearly enumerate Natural Law, crimes committed by the State, and what we stand for. It is a good starting point.

If you are unwilling to do anything "illegal" and you would rather abide by the tyrants law, than I call you nothing less than a coward. I take umbrage at the fact that people would rather try and stay within the bounds of the law, that very law that enslaves us, than to act as free sovereign individuals living within the moral and rightful bounds of liberty.

As Patrick Henry said...

If this be treason than so be it!

I'm open to collaboration, and very interested in publishing and promoting a finished Declaration.

Tax revolts are great starting points, but ultimately focus on merely one head of the Hydra. Without cutting off the Federal Reserve and Legal Tender laws, a tax revolt will merely result in the growth of the beast and the creeping up of more insidious VATs and Tariffs.

While I have no qualms ignoring State-made "law", battles must be chosen to minimize risk and maximize returns - repealing the mandatory withholding provision may be worth it to really show people that the govt is stealing their labor. Advocating a massive non-payment of taxes is a poor tactic though, especially when done on a public forum.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

I'm open to collaboration, and very interested in publishing and promoting a finished Declaration.

Tax revolts are great starting points, but ultimately focus on merely one head of the Hydra. Without cutting off the Federal Reserve and Legal Tender laws, a tax revolt will merely result in the growth of the beast and the creeping up of more insidious VATs and Tariffs.

While I have no qualms ignoring State-made "law", battles must be chosen to minimize risk and maximize returns - repealing the mandatory withholding provision may be worth it to really show people that the govt is stealing their labor. Advocating a massive non-payment of taxes is a poor tactic though, especially when done on a public forum.

What I am advocating for is the seperation of political bonds. Nothing short of a new Declaration of Independence. I am advocating for the individual divorcement from the United States of America. I am done asking for permission from my neighbors to be free. To live in liberty. The time has not yet come for me to do this, as I have said, but within the next two years I imagine it will be so.

If we refuse to take the risk that we may die, than we have nothing to gain, because liberty is not gained by taking as little risk. Liberty is gained, by risking everything. I for one, am ready. I ask nought from anyone else to join me unless they too are ready to make sacrifices. I am under no delusions that the tyrants will allow me to voluntarily divorce myself from their subjugation. The time has not yet come, but it is rapidly approaching.

We are standing on the precipice of history. Will you walk away, or will you stand and defend your liberty? Asking for permission from your neighbors, is not liberty.

[MN Patriot]

While I have no qualms ignoring State-made "law", battles must be chosen to minimize risk and maximize returns - repealing the mandatory withholding provision may be worth it to really show people that the govt is stealing their labor. Advocating a massive non-payment of taxes is a poor tactic though, especially when done on a public forum.

So what are the risks of advocating that we outlaw payroll withholding? Upset the liberals? Their sacred government is still getting its precious precious money. We aren't telling people not to pay. We WANT them to pay. Three or four payment a month.

I think the risk/reward factor is heavily in our favor. Plus, it will weed out the faux Tea Party candidates. Lots of Republicans talk about ending the income tax. Few actually do anything about it.

[torchbearer]

What a bunch of timid little people in the "Liberty Forest". I thought you people wanted a revolution.

For your information, I proposed these basic ideas as resolutions in our caucuses last week. Proudly put my name on it. I entirely anticipate it to be shot down by the Establishment Republicans during the next step, but this idea needs to get out there.

In fact, I heard Jason Lewis mention this idea on his radio show last week. So this idea is getting out there.

This is the Achilles Heel of the collectivists, in my opinion, and we need to take advantage of it.

People who follow my post here know that i am not timid. but there is a fine line between bravery and stupidity.
Posting your intent to not pay taxes in a revolt on a public forum is the same as calling up the IRS and letting them know personally.
Let me know if you do that and how that works out for you.

[Truth-Bringer]

I've been thinking about writing up another Declaration of Independance, and have everyone willing to become sovereign individuals and to reclaim our Natural Rights sign it and to deliver it to the tyrants in DC.

That's already being worked on my friend.

Check out the Restore America Plan. (http://guardiansofthefreerepublics.com/front-page.html)

[Truth-Bringer]

It is a good idea. Keep the ideas coming, but you must be ready to bite the bullet on this and lead by example.

Sad to say, but true. Every revolution needs a few martyrs.

Are you guys paying attention???? With Jury Nullification (http://www.buildfreedom.com/tl/ffp04.shtml), you don't need martyrs. It doesn't matter if you're the only one on the jury who wants to acquit someone of tax evasion, you just hang the jury and force a retrial.

[MN Patriot]

People who follow my post here know that i am not timid. but there is a fine line between bravery and stupidity.
Posting your intent to not pay taxes in a revolt on a public forum is the same as calling up the IRS and letting them know personally.
Let me know if you do that and how that works out for you.

Obviously, you haven't even read my posts in this thread. I haven't told anybody to not pay their taxes.

How many times to I have to explain this? Jeez.

If we have enough Liberty Candidates proposing legislation that OUTLAWS PAYROLL WITHHOLDING, it would focus attention to the costs of government for every person who earns a wage. That is not the same as saying to not pay your taxes; in fact it is the opposite. Pay your taxes. Write a check once a month to the Federal government, state government, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, local government.

Everyone who posts here is probably in the IRS crosshairs. Actually, I would welcome an audit. Chances are I would get money back!

[Truth-Bringer]

Obviously, you haven't even read my posts in this thread. I haven't told anybody to not pay their taxes.

How many times to I have to explain this? Jeez.


Some people definitely aren't reading these posts before they reply.

[furface]

Perhaps some thoughts about at least marginally viable strategies is worth while. Challenging the 16th Amendment directly in the courts will definitely not work. However, challenging different parts of the tax collection process may. For instance income taxes may be legal, but extracting individual information via tax returns may not be.

Would cutting a check for what you believe you owe in taxes, but not filing the actual tax return be something worth testing in the courts? Has it been tried? I'm not sure.

Information collection on tax returns in my view is an extreme violation of the 4th Amendment's prohibition on unreasonable searches and seizures. The 16th Amendment does not explicitly address information collection either.


The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

You also need a movement behind you if you do this. Courts look at the general mood of society, and if you're just some stray rat whining about taxes, they're not going to listen. If however, you get a group of people who intelligently address the absurd violation of privacy that filing out income tax returns involves, then you might have a chance.