Another man shot dead by cops. Crime? Swinging a baseball bat.

[Anti Federalist]

This just happened last night...

Peoria man, 62, killed in officer-involved shooting
http://www.yourwestvalley.com/news/peoria-12298-dodds-killed.html
January 26, 2010 11:47 AM
Staff report

A 62-year-old man was shot and killed by two Peoria police officers Monday night.

Officers responded to a family fight call at 7:15 p.m. in the 10600 block of Via Montoya, between Deer Valley and Pinnacle Peak roads, said Jay Davies, a Peoria Police Department spokesman.

Richard Allen Dodds, 62, was reportedly in an argument with his wife over finances when a family member called 911.

Dodds, who lived at the home with his wife, daughter, son-in-law and granddaughter, reportedly charged at officers with a baseball bat while inside the house, police said.

Davies said Dodds would not cooperate with commands, and officers feared for their lives.

Davies said one officer used a Taser on Dodds, and two other officers used lethal force, firing at Dodds.

Dodds was airlifted to an area hospital, where he was pronounced dead.

No other injuries were reported.

It is unclear how many shots were fired, or the sequence of events, Davies said.

The names of the officers involved, who are on paid leave, are expected to be released later today.

The incident remains under investigation.

[Anti Federalist]

The lesson here is "Dial 911 and Die".

The old tongue in cheek meaning for that phrase, if you dial 911 and wait around for the state's enforcers to show up while in the midst of a criminal attack, you'll end up dead.

The new meaning, becoming more and more true every day, is this: invite the state's enforcers into an ongoing situation and, by the time the dust settles, someone will be dead.

Do not talk to cops.

Do not interact with cops.

Treat every encounter with cops as potentially life threatening.

[devil21]

So they tazed him, THEN shot him? Good lord.

[LibertyEagle]

I need more information on this one to reach a conclusion.

[MelissaWV]

I need more information on this one to reach a conclusion.

I was thinking that, but as long as he was tazed AND shot I see this as a major :eek:

* * *

As an aside, when I've called 9-1-1 people have been rather pleasant. When the police came to my home to split up a domestic situation, perhaps thrice as many responded as were warranted, but they were all fairly kind to me AND the offending parties. No one got arrested, though if the offending parties had kept antagonizing the police with their lollygagging there might've been some cuffs brought out :p I think it varies greatly by area.

[thasre]

This is pretty bad I'd say, but considering that he did allegedly charge the police and it apparently was a domestic violence situation I can't say he shouldn't have expected some tough love from the cops, you know?

Not that that justifies indiscriminately shooting people to death... but it's not nearly as egregious an abuse of justice as some of what you hear about.

[sratiug]

I need more information on this one to reach a conclusion.

You made me spit my drink out. How many officers and how many tazers should it take to subdue one 62 year old man?

[LibertyEagle]

You made me spit my drink out. How many officers and how many tazers should it take to subdue one 62 year old man?

It would depend on a multitude of factors. If he was a large, muscular, man and he was close to my head with that baseball bat, then, I would consider that quite a threat to my life.

Like I said, I need more information on what exactly transpired.

[MelissaWV]

You made me spit my drink out. How many officers and how many tazers should it take to subdue one 62 year old man?

Well, as for the number of officers, when there is a "domestic call" with children and possible weaponry (whoever made the call was likely to mention the bat)... there are more police called than if it's just two spouses arguing loudly.

As for the tazers, it says in the article itself that the order of events is unclear. It's always nice to get more info.

[dannno]

Hmm I wonder what the dude was so pissed about.

[Anti Federalist]

Hmm I wonder what the dude was so pissed about.

Ten bucks says IRS problems.

Look for more and more of this to happen as this whole things unravels like a cheap suit.

[Dieseler]

Hmm I wonder what the dude was so pissed about.

Whatever it was, it wasn't the business of the Po Po until some dumb relative broke rule number one.
Now they get to bury their father and husband.

[Anti Federalist]

As an aside, when I've called 9-1-1 people have been rather pleasant. When the police came to my home to split up a domestic situation, perhaps thrice as many responded as were warranted, but they were all fairly kind to me AND the offending parties. No one got arrested, though if the offending parties had kept antagonizing the police with their lollygagging there might've been some cuffs brought out :p I think it varies greatly by area.

Just a roll of the dice, I think.

I'm not a gambling man, so I'm not willing to take the chance.

[Anti Federalist]

Whatever it was, it wasn't the business of the Po Po until some dumb relative broke rule number one.
Now they get to bury their father and husband.

That that that +1,000,000 ^^^^^

[Dieseler]

I preach that sermon at home once a day.

[dannno]

Whatever it was, it wasn't the business of the Po Po until some dumb relative broke rule number one.
Now they get to bury their father and husband.

Well if the guy was really threatening them then it would be nice to have some Andy Griffith type come over and make sure things are ok... but AF is right the good cops are very few and far between..it's really a gamble getting them involved, best to let them stay out of it these days.

but seriously, if ONE guy has a baseball bat, and 3 guys have guns AND tasers, there's no reason to shoot, that's ridiculous.

[Dieseler]

The guy was probably breaking his own things...
Then Sissy or Junior, maybe even Mom figured Dad was out of hand and they didn't even know about rule number one, so they called their friendly neighborhood precinct who promptly sent out the hit squad.
End of story.

[devil21]

The guy was probably breaking his own shit...

What is this "own shit"? Don't you know the State owns everything and you only get to borrow it as long as they let you?

[MelissaWV]

Just a roll of the dice, I think.

I'm not a gambling man, so I'm not willing to take the chance.

And sometimes, if you're stuck in a house, outnumbered, with people who are threatening your well-being and looking to dump you, literally, out on the street without a penny... you do roll the dice.

And it didn't make me "dumb," despite the implications in this thread. Some things you just cannot solve yourself.

I have no earthly idea if this guy did anything even remotely deserving of a tasering, and I question why, if reports are accurate, the police would use a subduing force and deadly force together... but I also find it a little sick that people are looking for good reasons that he was arguing with his wife "over finances" and thought the logical thing to do would be to make his point with a baseball bat. Maybe he didn't pick up the bat until he saw the police. Maybe the police were total assholes. Maybe he wasn't even being that loud or rude, and one of the many relatives had it in for him. We just don't know either way.

That's why I side with LE as stating there's not enough information to know what happened. It's just HIGHLY unlikely deadly force was called for.

[Dieseler]

And sometimes, if you're stuck in a house, outnumbered, with people who are threatening your well-being and looking to dump you, literally, out on the street without a penny... you do roll the dice.

And it didn't make me "dumb," despite the implications in this thread. Some things you just cannot solve yourself.

I have no earthly idea if this guy did anything even remotely deserving of a tasering, and I question why, if reports are accurate, the police would use a subduing force and deadly force together... but I also find it a little sick that people are looking for good reasons that he was arguing with his wife "over finances" and thought the logical thing to do would be to make his point with a baseball bat. Maybe he didn't pick up the bat until he saw the police. Maybe the police were total assholes. Maybe he wasn't even being that loud or rude, and one of the many relatives had it in for him. We just don't know either way.

That's why I side with LE as stating there's not enough information to know what happened. It's just HIGHLY unlikely deadly force was called for.

Aye, well, what is obvious though is that someone called the police and now Dad is dead. I think we can all agree on that.

[devil21]

http://www.azcentral.com/community/peoria/articles/2010/01/25/20100125abrk-officershooting0125.html



A 62-year-old man who was shot by Peoria police officers Monday night has died at the hospital, police said Tuesday.

The victim, Richard Allen Dodds, reportedly charged officers inside his Peoria home while wielding a baseball bat, forcing the three responding officers to open fire, said Peoria police spokesman Jay Davies.

Officers arrived at the home in the 10600 block of West Via Montoya Drive after an unidentified female inside the house called to report a family fight between Dodds and his wife, Davies said.

Dodds lived in the home with his wife, daughter and son-in-law, as well as a 9-year-old granddaughter.

It was unclear how many times Dodds was shot, although two officers reportedly fired lethal firearms and one deployed a Taser, Davies said. The names of the three officers were not released pending a standard investigation, he said.

"Detectives and professional standards units were out all night gathering information," Davies said. "We'll be investigating to determine the background before, and certainly after, police arrived."

[Dieseler]

Dodds lived in the home with his wife, daughter and son-in-law, as well as a 9-year-old granddaughter.

This is a huge muck up as well.

If it had read like this,

Dodds lived in the home with his wife, daughter and a 9-year-old granddaughter.
We probably wouldn't even be reading it at all.

If it read like this,

Dodds lived in the home with his wife.
I know we wouldn't.

Dad got mucked.
Won't be no days like this in Dieseler's house.

[devil21]

According to AZ courts website, he has had a good amount of run-ins with the cops for various traffic cases and a lawsuit was filed against him and his wife in 2007.

Another report, including cop names:
http://www.kpho.com/news/22347425/detail.html



PEORIA, Ariz. -- A 62-year-old man who was shot by a Peoria police officer has died, police said.

Police said officers responding to a family fight Monday night feared for their lives when Richard Allen Dodds charged toward them with a baseball bat.

Authorities said Dodds died Monday night after two officers shot him.

Peoria Police Department spokesman Jay Davies said he would not comply with officers' commands.

Davies said officers were called to the family home around 7:20 p.m. on a report of a family fight. Authorities say Dobbs, his wife, their daughter, her husband and their young daughter were in the home when officers arrived.

Investigators said Dodds and his wife were arguing over finances.

The two officers who fired shots during the incident are David Lebo, who has been with the agency for over four years, and Jonathon Moore, who has been with Peoria for over two years, the department said. Both officers have been placed on paid administrative leave, which is standard in officer-involved shooting incidents, the department said.

So 2 years and 4 years duty. Pretty "fresh" and I bet they're young and joined up right out of Iraq.

[Anti Federalist]

And it didn't make me "dumb," despite the implications in this thread. Some things you just cannot solve yourself.



Never called you dumb, where did that come from?

All I said is you roll the dice when you call the state enforcers.

More and more those dice are loaded and it's gonna come up snake eyes for you.

And yes, the facts are not all clear, and if they are damaging to the cops, will never be.

[Anti Federalist]

Aye, well, what is obvious though is that someone called the police and now Dad is dead. I think we can all agree on that.

Called the police looking for help in resolving what appeared to be a violent, but not lethal, situation.

If you, as a mere mundane, had walked into a similar situation in your neighbor's house and the results turned out like this, you'd be cooling your heels in prison.

[fisharmor]

Peoria Police Department spokesman Jay Davies said he would not comply with officers' commands.

This is all any of us will ever know or need to know.
Refuse to comply with their commands, even on your own property, and you're dead.
The fact that they have the stones to actually release this in a statement is all I need to know.

I can appreciate the fact that some of you still want to give our overlords the benefit of the doubt.
As for me, cops have never been a benefit to me.
Never.
The best I have ever gotten from them is their personal decision not to enforce the law - in short, being "nice" to me by not doing the job they are paid to perform with money that was stolen from me.

My daughters are being taught to steer clear of them and that not one of them is a good person.

If I can go one whole month without reading about a brand new incident like this, I might change my mind.

[ItsTime]

If you are scared of a baseball bat you shouldn't be a cop.

[Mini-Me]

If you are scared of a baseball bat you shouldn't be a cop.

Exactly. People always give the cops the benefit of the doubt, because they "put themselves in harm's way," blah blah, as part of their job, but no trigger-happy cop is really putting himself in that much personal danger if he's shooting everything that moves. :rolleyes: Granted, this isn't the very best story to focus on as a "poster child for police murders" story, but it still seems extremely unlikely that anything approaching deadly force was warranted...and as Anti-Fed said, it's not like we can ever even know, since inconvenient facts for the gang in blue are routinely white-washed and altered anyway.

[jclay2]

All I know is that if you or I did this, we would be in prison for at least a couple of years.

[Mini-Me]

All I know is that if you or I did this, we would be in prison for at least a couple of years.

Yeah, but cops are special, and they deserve the benefit of the doubt, because they put their lives on the line every day and are authorized by the state to do what they do! :rolleyes:

[madengr]

I don't know the circumstances with the cops, however if someone charged me with a baseball bat I would shoot them too.

[klamath]

Well since we are all playing the judge and jury here with all these wonderful facts I say good riddance. Any guy that takes a a baseball bat to a family argument needs his head blown off. A guy beating a 9 year old girl with a bat gets no quarter from me.

[Mini-Me]

I don't know the circumstances with the cops, however if someone charged me with a baseball bat I would shoot them too.
If you were on neutral ground or your home turf, you only had a gun at your disposal, and you were alone, sure, I can see that. What about the situation at hand, where there were other cops around, it was at his house, and he was already being tazed anyway? It does make a bit of a difference...


Well since we are all playing the judge and jury here with all these wonderful facts I say good riddance. Any guy that takes a a baseball bat to a family argument needs his head blown off. A guy beating a 9 year old girl with a bat gets no quarter from me.

I heard he had already beaten his family to death with the bat before the cops arrived, and then charged at them screaming and covered in blood.

...you know, since we're playing fast and loose and all...

[klamath]

If you were on neutral ground or your home turf, you only had a gun at your disposal, and you were alone, sure, I can see that. What about the situation at hand, where there were other cops around, it was at his house, and he was already being tazed anyway? It does make a bit of a difference...



I heard he had already beaten his family to death with the bat before the cops arrived, and then charged at them screaming and covered in blood.

...you know, since we're playing fast and loose and all...

Yeaw the fast and loose game is really fun. Maybe we can all conjure up in our minds exactly what happened there so nobody has to go through the boring trial part.

[Anti Federalist]

Yeaw the fast and loose game is really fun. Maybe we can all conjure up in our minds exactly what happened there so nobody has to go through the boring trial part.

What trial?

In all probability the cops, (who are on paid leave), will be cleared by an internal investigation, which will say they were following "policy" and that will be the end of it.

There's no trial because there are no charges.

Why is it that, if it was any other tax feeder, say, a postal worker, protected by iron clad union contracts that almost prohibit any type of action be taken against an employee that fucks up, that person would be thrown to the wolves as yet another example of government largess run amok?

Unless that person had a snazzy uniform, badge and gun.

Then they become infallible Ubermensch.

[BlackTerrel]

Whatever it was, it wasn't the business of the Po Po until some dumb relative broke rule number one.
Now they get to bury their father and husband.

You have to wonder what he was doing that made someone in the household decide they couldn't handle him and had to get outside help. Not enough information to see if it was warranted or not.

[Keller1967]

Yeaw the fast and loose game is really fun. Maybe we can all conjure up in our minds exactly what happened there so nobody has to go through the boring trial part.

Don't be silly, these cops won't go to trial, they probably won't even have to go look for a new job. The only way this would go to trial would be if the victim survived, then they would send him to trial and slap him with assault to justify the shooting.

The cops are obviously red handed here, they murdered this guy. If not they would relish and being able to expose every detail of why this guy had to be killed. Anytime it is a vague story like this, you should know something shady is going on. The reason the victim was tasered and shot was because one cop out of three actually responded with an appropriate level of force.

You all who want to excuse cops who escalate situations to the point of murder when they should be diffusing the situation, be my guest, you are digging your own graves.

[t0rnado]

It was still the man's property and he did not want the thugs trespassing on it. He did not give them permission to enter his house either; another member of a household did.

[Pants]

I feel bad for the 9 year old girl. That scene will play in her head the rest of her life! It will probably cause her psychological problems as well. If the police had to shoot, they could have shot in a non-fatal area. It sounds like everything was at close range. So it shouldn't have been hard to shoot at the foot or leg. .



It was still the man's property and he did not want the thugs trespassing on it. He did not give them permission to enter his house either; another member of a household did.

[Reason]

I feel bad for the 9 year old girl. That scene will play in her head the rest of her life! It will probably cause her psychological problems as well. If the police had to shoot, they could have shot in a non-fatal area. It sounds like everything was at close range. So it shouldn't have been hard to shoot at the foot or leg. .

There is no such thing as shooting for a non fatal area.

I took AOJ classes back when I thought I wanted to be a cop.

If you are pulling the trigger you are shooting to kill.

People can hate that policy & debate until the sun explodes but that's the way it is right now.

[Baptist]

This is all any of us will ever know or need to know.
Refuse to comply with their commands, even on your own property, and you're dead.
The fact that they have the stones to actually release this in a statement is all I need to know.

I can appreciate the fact that some of you still want to give our overlords the benefit of the doubt.
As for me, cops have never been a benefit to me.
Never.
The best I have ever gotten from them is their personal decision not to enforce the law - in short, being "nice" to me by not doing the job they are paid to perform with money that was stolen from me.

My daughters are being taught to steer clear of them and that not one of them is a good person.

If I can go one whole month without reading about a brand new incident like this, I might change my mind.

+1

For me, it's when I see a video of one cop stopping another cop from beating/murdering a civilian. Until then, until I see a video of one cop slamming a corrupt cop down on the pavement and handcuffing him, I will continue believing that there are no good cops. I don't think there exist one single video of a cop stopping another cop IN THE ACT of screwing us. Sure we hear about internal affairs and the FBI coming in and cleaning house, but that happens only after LONG train of abuses, corruption, or long after the public outcry becomes too loud to ignore.

All I want to see is a video of one cop saving a civilian from another cop who was in the process of infringing on the civilian's rights. Until then..... there are no good cops.

[Reason]

My daughters are being taught to steer clear of them and that not one of them is a good person.



http://oathkeepers.org/oath/about/

[Baptist]

If you were on neutral ground or your home turf, you only had a gun at your disposal, and you were alone, sure, I can see that. What about the situation at hand, where there were other cops around, it was at his house, and he was already being tazed anyway? It does make a bit of a difference...
.


Yeah, I agree. You have the right to defend yourself in your house from a guy wielding a bat, even if that means shooting him.

However, this was one 62-year-old dude going up against three cops in their 20's-40's. Even if the guy was charging them with a bat, they all have tasers and they all have billy clubs. Similarly, chances are that the cops were in good shape, too (lots of cops are in bad shape and have big guts, for I'd say that the majority of cops are in better shape than 90% of civilians).

[Baptist]

This is a huge muck up as well.

If it had read like this,

We probably wouldn't even be reading it at all.

If it read like this,

I know we wouldn't.

Dad got mucked.
Won't be no days like this in Dieseler's house.


ROFL. Tales from the trailer park. Gotta love it.

[MelissaWV]

Never called you dumb, where did that come from?

All I said is you roll the dice when you call the state enforcers.

More and more those dice are loaded and it's gonna come up snake eyes for you.

And yes, the facts are not all clear, and if they are damaging to the cops, will never be.

"Dumb" in reference to:


Whatever it was, it wasn't the business of the Po Po until some dumb relative broke rule number one.

[fisharmor]

All I want to see is a video of one cop saving a civilian from another cop who was in the process of infringing on the civilian's rights. Until then..... there are no good cops.

+1000

You apologists think this is only about murder.
It's about being our overlords.
The weekly Youtube murder show isn't the problem, it's a symptom... and it's the reason a lot more of us are taking NWA's position on the matter.

[MelissaWV]

Who is being an apologist? I would want to know all the facts of any matter before deciding for myself if it was justified. I don't think we'll ever have that in this matter.

I posted my personal experience with the police. I do believe there are good police officers, but then again the bad ones either partner up with bad ones, or spread their bad behavior to their partners who might have started lukewarm. If you were a good cop, and you knew you wouldn't be able to get the bad cop fired, you would probably want to swap partners and get away from them. It's merely a thought.

The "all cops are bad" nonsense reminds me of people on this board who try to tell others that they should never see a doctor, or take a pill, or get surgery because (respectively) they are on the take from big Pharma, all prescriptions are poison, and hospitals will harvest your organs.

* * *

I hope no one's daughter, being taught to fear the cops, ever gets into a bad situation. It's funny; I was scared to call them for a really, really long time. When I did I could have laughed at how stupid I was for not doing it way sooner.

Situations are different, person to person and region to region.

[Mini-Me]

+1000

You apologists think this is only about murder.
It's about being our overlords.
The weekly Youtube murder show isn't the problem, it's a symptom... and it's the reason a lot more of us are taking NWA's position on the matter.

You make a good point about the murders being mere symptoms of the problem.

Sometimes, the conspiracy-minded side of my brain even wonders:
Do TPTB have some kind of ulterior motive here, besides just subjugating the population? By giving police so much power and blanket immunity from repercussions and making the job so irresistable to psychopaths all over the country, they're doing a whole lot more than "just" establishing a thug caste to lord over us. In the event of collapse, nullification and federal strong-arming, or secession and invasion, it would be extremely helpful to have local law enforcement (especially the sheriff) on our side. By maintaining nearly uniform policies almost everywhere that inevitably stack police ranks with psychopaths, TPTB are undermining the chances of that ever happening and thereby protecting their own position. I mean, I know the purpose of a police state is always to keep people under the state's boot and protect the ruling class's regime, but I'm wondering if they're specifically doing this to undermine any kind of revolution. It also serves as an excuse to "divide and conquer" the public by polarizing the "fuck the police" and "how dare you insult these heroes" crowds against each other to the breaking point.

[Mini-Me]

Who is being an apologist? I would want to know all the facts of any matter before deciding for myself if it was justified. I don't think we'll ever have that in this matter.

I posted my personal experience with the police. I do believe there are good police officers, but then again the bad ones either partner up with bad ones, or spread their bad behavior to their partners who might have started lukewarm. If you were a good cop, and you knew you wouldn't be able to get the bad cop fired, you would probably want to swap partners and get away from them. It's merely a thought.

The "all cops are bad" nonsense reminds me of people on this board who try to tell others that they should never see a doctor, or take a pill, or get surgery because (respectively) they are on the take from big Pharma, all prescriptions are poison, and hospitals will harvest your organs.

* * *

I hope no one's daughter, being taught to fear the cops, ever gets into a bad situation. It's funny; I was scared to call them for a really, really long time. When I did I could have laughed at how stupid I was for not doing it way sooner.

Situations are different, person to person and region to region.

I think the "there are no good cops" attitude is less about, "no cops whatsoever are good people," and more about, "no cops are good enough at their job to deserve it." There are plenty of cops who miraculously happen to be good people, and I don't think anyone's doubting this. The problem is that a "good" cop who meekly turns a blind eye to the worst habitual violent offenders is nearly worthless to us as anything more than a placeholder for yet another truly bad cop.

As Baptist said, I'm longing for the day when one of these "good" cops slams another cop down on the pavement and hauls him off to jail for assaulting and bullying the proles. Until the "good" cops (and prosecutors) get the guts to seriously clean house, they're "bad" cops (and prosecutors) in the sense that they're ineffectual. They're just cardboard cutouts of the real thing. I recognize that taking real action would require some major brass balls, and it would be ultimately futile martyrdom against an otherwise united police department holding the blue line, but it'd be nice to see it happen just once. It would give me hope that there are a bunch of other good cops just biding their time and waiting for the opportunity to get the job done [successfully]. Ultimately, the only way it will ever happen is when the public says in near-unison, "Enough is enough!" We need a whole lot more Anti-Federalists, Baptists, fisharmors, etc., who are sick and tired of all the bullshit, and sick and tired of giving cops the benefit of the doubt, before anything is ever going to change.

[MelissaWV]

I think the "there are no good cops" attitude is less about, "no cops whatsoever are good people," and more about, "no cops are good enough at their job to deserve it."

I wasn't talking about cops as good people, though, either. I do recognize this call to action, but the same could be said for most any profession (and often is). There are no good lawyers, because some are money-grubbing ambulance-chasers. There are no good doctors, because some are prescription-happy quacks. They should stand up to the others, or else they are really not upholding the oaths they take.

There are no good people in Congress. If there were, they would take a hard-ass stance and not play politics at all. They would shine a light on every misdeed their peers commit. They would ensure no bad legislation ever got through.

Well, with that last one, it's been oft-recognized that politicians must play politics at least a little bit to keep their jobs. Sometimes you compromise just to keep your position so that you can be an example and get change pushed through when it matters.

I do wish more police would stand up and blow the whistle on their fellows, but saying it has never happened is unfair. Does it happen on camera during the beatings police administer way too often to people already on the ground? No. I'd theorize that those types of people are often partnering with similar sorts. There is no "good cop bad cop" partnership. If there were, the good cop would rain on the bad cop's parade. Dirty cops tend to partner up, tend to develop their "skills" together, I'd assume, and have more success working in tandem. I don't think it's so much a case of "no cops stand up to other cops during these events" as "cops know when it's okay to do this, and when their supervisors will accept a story, and when their peers won't turn them in."

Be wary of absolutes... even this one.

[Mini-Me]

I wasn't talking about cops as good people, though, either. I do recognize this call to action, but the same could be said for most any profession (and often is). There are no good lawyers, because some are money-grubbing ambulance-chasers. There are no good doctors, because some are prescription-happy quacks. They should stand up to the others, or else they are really not upholding the oaths they take.

There are no good people in Congress. If there were, they would take a hard-ass stance and not play politics at all. They would shine a light on every misdeed their peers commit. They would ensure no bad legislation ever got through.

Well, with that last one, it's been oft-recognized that politicians must play politics at least a little bit to keep their jobs. Sometimes you compromise just to keep your position so that you can be an example and get change pushed through when it matters.

I do wish more police would stand up and blow the whistle on their fellows, but saying it has never happened is unfair. Does it happen on camera during the beatings police administer way too often to people already on the ground? No. I'd theorize that those types of people are often partnering with similar sorts. There is no "good cop bad cop" partnership. If there were, the good cop would rain on the bad cop's parade. Dirty cops tend to partner up, tend to develop their "skills" together, I'd assume, and have more success working in tandem. I don't think it's so much a case of "no cops stand up to other cops during these events" as "cops know when it's okay to do this, and when their supervisors will accept a story, and when their peers won't turn them in."

Be wary of absolutes... even this one.

In the case of lawyers, some lawyers do fight the evil ones with every weapon at their disposal (and besides, their job doesn't even pretend to be about doing the right thing ;)). In the case of doctors, their job is to help their own patients, not "stand up to" other doctors. Sure, you can make a valid criticism that most of them too easily swallow what they're told from "on high," but that's an honest mistake they're making, as opposed to deliberately ignoring the elephant in the room (like the "good" cops do). In the case of Congresspeople, Ron Paul cannot ensure bad (and particularly unconstitutional) legislation doesn't get through by himself, but he stands up against it almost every time by voting and boldly speaking out against it. He's a counterexample that prevents me from outright declaring that there are no good politicians...instead, there are simply very, very few.

When it comes to cops, it seems to be a different story, since it at least seems that all of them, without exception, let the worst habitual offenders slide. Sure, I've heard of cops busting other cops for corruption, but I've never once heard of a cop stopping another cop in the act of felonious assault against a helot and arresting him...despite the fact that it's their job to do so, and nobody else is likely to be able to do it without being shot dead. (As far as good cops being partnered together: That should really just make it much easier and more viable to trail and nail the others after becoming suspicious.) If you can name counterexamples, then perhaps we should add the word "almost" to the saying, "there are no good cops." The problem is, any real counterexamples would likely be fired as soon as they revealed themselves to be good cops anyway, thereby preserving the truth value of the saying. ;)

That said, even though I'm half-assedly arguing a case for taking the phrase "there are no good cops" literally, I don't think anyone really means it as a 100% true statement. Instead, it's intended for modest shock value and to drive a point home about what it would really mean to be a good cop (and why few if any pass a rigorous inspection). Again, the world would be a lot better off if we had Anti-Federalists, Baptists, and fisharmors everywhere, demanding real change without equivocating and pussyfooting around the issue. Then, maybe something would actually get done about this gigantic systemic problem.

[Keller1967]

I wasn't talking about cops as good people, though, either. I do recognize this call to action, but the same could be said for most any profession (and often is). There are no good lawyers, because some are money-grubbing ambulance-chasers. There are no good doctors, because some are prescription-happy quacks. They should stand up to the others, or else they are really not upholding the oaths they take.

The difference is that lawyers are not responsible for enforcing good law practice on others, doctors are not responsible for enforcing good health care on their peers, but cops are responsible form enforcing the law on everyone. If they cannot even do this within their group of peers, they are completely useless - and dangerous.


There are no good people in Congress. If there were, they would take a hard-ass stance and not play politics at all. They would shine a light on every misdeed their peers commit. They would ensure no bad legislation ever got through.

That is more or less true, that's why we have one guy (Ron Paul) out of how many hundred that is actually a decent guy.


Well, with that last one, it's been oft-recognized that politicians must play politics at least a little bit to keep their jobs. Sometimes you compromise just to keep your position so that you can be an example and get change pushed through when it matters.

Which is pathetic when you are taking a job funding by taxpayers and you are supposed to be protecting them. People doing this are just as bad as the "real" corrupt cops. When we actually see one cop be an example and put a stop to what his co-workers are doing, this argument would have a bit of credibility. Until then we are waiting for the day that their good example is worth more than the shit I took this morning.


I do wish more police would stand up and blow the whistle on their fellows, but saying it has never happened is unfair. Does it happen on camera during the beatings police administer way too often to people already on the ground?

No it is not unfair, these guys are living off of our money and doing a piss poor job to show for it.


No. I'd theorize that those types of people are often partnering with similar sorts. There is no "good cop bad cop" partnership. If there were, the good cop would rain on the bad cop's parade. Dirty cops tend to partner up, tend to develop their "skills" together, I'd assume, and have more success working in tandem. I don't think it's so much a case of "no cops stand up to other cops during these events" as "cops know when it's okay to do this, and when their supervisors will accept a story, and when their peers won't turn them in."

You probably just pulled that out of your ass, but even if it is true then that would only mean that management is corrupt from the top down, either directly by authorizing it or indirectly by turning a blind eye.


Be wary of absolutes... even this one.

Being wary of cops when you encounter them face to face is not an absolute, it is good advice. The best thing you can do is make good use of your right to remain silent and treat it is a potential life and death encounter like AF said.

Police are responsible for enforcing the law, if they cannot do this within their own organization, then their is no reason to expect them to do a good job of it anywhere else. Their organization as a whole is responsible, when they put on the uniform or stand behind a badge, they are part of that organization - good cop or bad cop becomes irrelevant, they are a representative of a very bad organization. They are voluntarily choosing to represent that organization.

[Keller1967]

I the real world if you have an organization offering you service, service you are paying for, and they are doing a piss poor job of it - you do not pick and choose who within the organization is causing the problems, you do not excuse the organization because not all of them are bad at their job, you do not wait and hope for the organization to get better.

You fucking fire them and replace them with someone else. But not all of the employees were bad? Boo fucking hoo.

Unfortunately good business sense gets thrown out the window when applied to government.

[MelissaWV]

New York Police Detective Third Grade Frank Serpico was unique, according to his biographer Peter Maas. “He was the first officer in the history of the Police Department who not only reported corruption in its ranks, but voluntarily, on his own, stepped forward to testify about it in court.”


In Pomona, California, in 1995, police officer Jed Arno Blair alleged that other officers stole money and planted drugs on suspects. His allegations eventually led to the firing of three officers.


Also in California, in August 2000, more than 40 current and former Los Angeles police officers filed a class-action lawsuit alleging that they had been retaliated against because they had reported police wrongdoing. The officers believed they were victims of retaliation for “reporting incidence of excessive force, hostile work environment issues and other forms of police misconduct.”

(The above is also an example of retaliation, which is also by cops, which of course blows the entire "they're all heroes" idiocy out of the water, but it also shows that some police really do report wrongdoing.)


In the mid-1990s, New Jersey police officer Richard Rivera, “ignited the largest
police corruption investigation in New Jersey history.” It resulted in indictments of 34 people in West New York, 22 of them, including the police chief, pled guilty. Mr. Rivera began the process with a call to the FBI. He assisted in the investigation for 18 months by wearing a body wire and posing as a corrupt cop.

I'm sure there are more counterexamples. I'm at work. I can't precisely go into every archive everyplace and dig up more documentation of police officers standing up to their fellows, and certainly would have a monumental task finding an "on the spot" example, when the vast majority of videos are of police engaged in beating the crap out of citizens. I haven't once argued that the beating in the OP is justified, and I haven't once said the bulk of police are wonderful angels that flutter about protecting us from one another. I do think, though, the "all cops are bad" attitude is counterproductive.

* * *

Mini-Me, I would also submit that the argument Dr. Paul can't stop corruption alone is certainly true of the police department as well. A whistleblower is of no use if no one hears the whistle blowing. Just the same, people do try.

* * *

The hypothesis about people being partnered as I described was more to address why there aren't oodles of video out there of one officer stopping another officer from beating a suspect. Then again, it seems like a complicated thing. If you're getting to the scene later than your partner, and you see him or her beating a suspect, you are very likely going to think it's the suspect's own fault. That's a problem with training, and a problem with supervising. In reality, departments breed their own trouble. I've seen plenty of places where the police are actually rather kind and helpful on the whole, and don't feel the need to assert their power trip en masse. There are also places where, if you get pulled over, you can expect an interrogation and citing the Constitution seems to translate to "tase me, please, in the chest if you can" to the police.

[MelissaWV]

I the real world if you have an organization offering you service, service you are paying for, and they are doing a piss poor job of it - you do not pick and choose who within the organization is causing the problems, you do not excuse the organization because not all of them are bad at their job, you do not wait and hope for the organization to get better.

You fucking fire them and replace them with someone else. But not all of the employees were bad? Boo fucking hoo.

Unfortunately good business sense gets thrown out the window when applied to government.


Except in this case, these people are our employees. If you have bad employees, you don't close down your business, you get rid of the bad employees. There is a sick, stupid, and entirely dangerous disconnect here between the people that pay and the people getting paid, and it isn't isolated within the police.

[Mini-Me]

(The above is also an example of retaliation, which is also by cops, which of course blows the entire "they're all heroes" idiocy out of the water, but it also shows that some police really do report wrongdoing.)



I'm sure there are more counterexamples. I'm at work. I can't precisely go into every archive everyplace and dig up more documentation of police officers standing up to their fellows, and certainly would have a monumental task finding an "on the spot" example, when the vast majority of videos are of police engaged in beating the crap out of citizens. I haven't once argued that the beating in the OP is justified, and I haven't once said the bulk of police are wonderful angels that flutter about protecting us from one another. I do think, though, the "all cops are bad" attitude is counterproductive.

* * *

Mini-Me, I would also submit that the argument Dr. Paul can't stop corruption alone is certainly true of the police department as well. A whistleblower is of no use if no one hears the whistle blowing. Just the same, people do try.

* * *

The hypothesis about people being partnered as I described was more to address why there aren't oodles of video out there of one officer stopping another officer from beating a suspect. Then again, it seems like a complicated thing. If you're getting to the scene later than your partner, and you see him or her beating a suspect, you are very likely going to think it's the suspect's own fault. That's a problem with training, and a problem with supervising. In reality, departments breed their own trouble. I've seen plenty of places where the police are actually rather kind and helpful on the whole, and don't feel the need to assert their power trip en masse. There are also places where, if you get pulled over, you can expect an interrogation and citing the Constitution seems to translate to "tase me, please, in the chest if you can" to the police.

To play devil's advocate here, your examples were about cops merely filing complaints after the fact, not slamming the perps on the pavement and arresting them...you know, like they would do to anyone else.

Still, I think you're missing the point entirely by taking the "there are no good cops" saying so literally and trying to defend against it. The statement isn't intended to be taken literally and create irrational hatred toward all cops without exception. It's intended to drive home a point about how police corruption, police brutality, etc. are such horribly systemic problems that even the "good" cops are cowed into standing by helplessly. At the very best, they "try" by filing complaints, and occasionally these get somewhere against individual perps, but in the meantime, the systemic problem is only getting worse. Until people (not you, but the general public) stop making excuses and recognize just how bad the situation is - so bad that even "good" cops have no real chance of cleaning house themselves - it is only going to get worse. We need more people who are totally pissed off and unwilling to sit silently or equivocate any longer. We need more Anti-Federalists, Baptists, and fisharmors driving the point home about how "there are no good cops," because people need to recognize the gravity of the situation, and people need to get pissed as hell, or nothing is ever going to change. If we want to empower the good cops with the boldness to act and let them know we have their backs, we're not going to do it by pretending like they're handling the situation just fine by themselves.

[klamath]

My last post on this stupid thread. I happen to personnally know three deputy sheriffs that were in almost exactly this same situation. They were called to this guys house that was extremely upset angry and violent. Of course being a small town all the deputys knew the guy and knew he had tendencies to get this way. They didn't want to arrest him so one of the young deputies called the neighbor lady over who they knew was his friend of 60 years or more to try and calm him down. She had calmed him down before. Both of these people were in their upper 70's. The old guy was unarmed. In a second he lunged grabbed a kitchen knife and stabbed his old lady friend in the throat. At this point the deputies shot the guy. The old old lady died from a severed artitery in the neck. Everyone in the town loved that old lady.
I don't buy the defenceless old guy theory.
I have had my run ins with power hungry cops from SP's on an AF base to rent a cops. My experience with them, was the private rent a cops were by far the worse.

[Keller1967]

Except in this case, these people are our employees. If you have bad employees, you don't close down your business, you get rid of the bad employees. There is a sick, stupid, and entirely dangerous disconnect here between the people that pay and the people getting paid, and it isn't isolated within the police.

That is ridiculous, just because they live off or our money does not mean they are our employees. We cannot fire them in that sense. The sick, stupid, and dangerous disconnect is the standard for government run programs. It isn't isolated within the police, but it is isolated within government.

[MelissaWV]

Mini-Me:

I'd be more likely to believe you if this thread weren't filled with people hammering home the "never call the police" mentality, and going so far as to call relatives who do so "dumb" or imply they are traitors.

I don't disagree with the bulk of your statement, but like with everything, some people will take it way too far. Teaching your children there's never a good time to call the police is almost as stupid as teaching them that anyone in uniform is trustworthy (as they used to do when I was in school). Teaching them their rights, and to call the police in case of a real emergency that they absolutely cannot handle on their own, and even after the police are called to be extremely vigilant, seems like the right way to go.

Then again, people really aren't going to change their opinions on this. I just hope it doesn't lead to something entirely unavoidable someday. I also hope any potential supporters who are/were police don't take it as Bible that folks here hate all authority and consider them devils who are ready to pounce and kill at a moment's notice.

Playing devil's advocate again, we could even go so far as to say an officer who tased instead of shooting their gun was looking out for the suspect, but that is gratuitous. I don't know if the guy in question deserved so much as a stern talking-to, let alone a tasering, and let alone getting shot by multiple officers. I can't even fathom what he'd have to do to deserve the last one.

What is troubling to me, about this forum, is I've never been anywhere else where "I will wait for all the facts to come out" is greeted with such anger. Of course that isn't everyone, but it's consistently an undercurrent here.

Lastly, since you edited while I was responding, I've not said they're handling the situation fine by themselves. This thread is full of inventions, which is another disheartening trend of late.

[Mini-Me]

Mini-Me:

I'd be more likely to believe you if this thread weren't filled with people hammering home the "never call the police" mentality, and going so far as to call relatives who do so "dumb" or imply they are traitors.
You can hammer home the "never call the police" mentality without really thinking "every single one is bad." As someone else said, it's just generally good advice. I agree with you that there are exceptional situations where you need to call the cops as a last resort, but people need to recognize that they should not make that decision lightly, since they're indeed rolling the dice every time. In the general population, most people have literally no concept of this...and it needs to change. I do agree that it's unfair to call relatives calling the police "dumb," etc. without first knowing their circumstances though...I think it's kind of a kneejerk emotional reaction among frustrated posters who read articles like this every single day and wish more people (in general) would treat police with the appropriate level of caution.



I don't disagree with the bulk of your statement, but like with everything, some people will take it way too far. Teaching your children there's never a good time to call the police is almost as stupid as teaching them that anyone in uniform is trustworthy (as they used to do when I was in school). Teaching them their rights, and to call the police in case of a real emergency that they absolutely cannot handle on their own, and even after the police are called to be extremely vigilant, seems like the right way to go.
I'm with you here.



Then again, people really aren't going to change their opinions on this. I just hope it doesn't lead to something entirely unavoidable someday. I also hope any potential supporters who are/were police don't take it as Bible that folks here hate all authority and consider them devils who are ready to pounce and kill at a moment's notice.
I do too, but if not us, who is going to give out the "swift kick in the ass" that's necessary for the situation to ever get better? We need the good cops on our side, but we can't fear alienating them so much that we fail to drive the point home to the general populace. Without a mass movement of people who have had ENOUGH, the situation will only continue degenerating.



Playing devil's advocate again, we could even go so far as to say an officer who tased instead of shooting their gun was looking out for the suspect, but that is gratuitous. I don't know if the guy in question deserved so much as a stern talking-to, let alone a tasering, and let alone getting shot by multiple officers. I can't even fathom what he'd have to do to deserve the last one.
It's quite possible that the officer who tazed the man was responding with the appropriate level of force here, as someone else said. He doesn't seem to be doing anything about the other cops who most probably committed manslaughter or second degree murder, though, does he? I think it deserves repeating that if anyone else did this, they would be ARRESTED, and there would be a TRIAL. In the case of cops, paid vacations are standard fare instead, and it's just all swept under the rug without any kind of transparency, and we're supposed to accept that?!? The problem is not constrained to the incidents themselves, since regardless of the circumstances, the complete lack of accountability is always an issue. In addition, false reports and coverups are so endemic that whenever you don't have all the details, you can pretty much rest assured there's something shady going on...as another poster said before.



What is troubling to me, about this forum, is I've never been anywhere else where "I will wait for all the facts to come out" is greeted with such anger. Of course that isn't everyone, but it's consistently an undercurrent here.
Maybe the anger stems from the fact that the facts will likely never come out, since there's this ridiculous systemic policy of bypassing trials for cops who kill people and substituting them for internal investigations by their buddies? The entire system is set up to prevent the facts from coming out and prevent anyone from doing anything about it. That's the point!



Lastly, since you edited while I was responding, I've not said they're handling the situation fine by themselves. This thread is full of inventions, which is another disheartening trend of late.
Don't worry, I wasn't trying to pull a straw man on you, and I'm sorry it came out that way. My real point in making that statement is that it's pointless debating the relative merits of the good cops, when they're clearly not getting the job done by themselves. In order to empower them, we need to start screaming at the top of our lungs just how ugly the situation is and just how much we want accountability. Pulling verbal punches to appease the feelings of good cops is not going to rouse the level of widespread outrage necessary to empower them.

[Anti Federalist]

This is all any of us will ever know or need to know.
Refuse to comply with their commands, even on your own property, and you're dead.

The fact that they have the stones to actually release this in a statement is all I need to know.

I can appreciate the fact that some of you still want to give our overlords the benefit of the doubt.

As for me, cops have never been a benefit to me.

Never.

The best I have ever gotten from them is their personal decision not to enforce the law - in short, being "nice" to me by not doing the job they are paid to perform with money that was stolen from me.

My daughters are being taught to steer clear of them and that not one of them is a good person.

If I can go one whole month without reading about a brand new incident like this, I might change my mind.

Wow, how did I miss that?

+1776

[Anti Federalist]

What is troubling to me, about this forum, is I've never been anywhere else where "I will wait for all the facts to come out" is greeted with such anger. Of course that isn't everyone, but it's consistently an undercurrent here.



In cases like this, it's just a response in kind.

Mini Me is doing an excellent job of covering the concept that cops and prosecutors never wait for the facts to come in, if it's one of them.

It's off to "paid administrative leave" and "internal investigation" where it's found that "policy was followed".

At that point us mundanes will be told to sit down and shut up.

[MelissaWV]

In cases like this, it's just a response in kind.

Mini Me is doing an excellent job of covering the concept that cops and prosecutors never wait for the facts to come in, if it's one of them.

It's off to "paid administrative leave" and "internal investigation" where it's found that "policy was followed".

At that point us mundanes will be told to sit down and shut up.

Does it occur to you, or to any of the other people in this thread with similar outlooks, that the "they started it" justification is likely what's used illogically by many police officers? Talk to some of these lunatics sometime. Everyone's a suspect to that particular subset, just like to some on this board every cop is a life-threatening jackbooted thug. It's the same broad brush, just another color.

Mini-Me DOES do an excellent job, yes, but my point still stands, and putting down fellow forum members as "dumb" because of an action (for which the person in question does not know the reason or justification in the OP; it could have been the 9-year-old that called 9-1-1 for all we know so far)... and also teaching your kids that every police officer is the enemy and to never call the police... what's the point of that? It's no different a hate than a "family of cops" teaching their younglings that all those "radical revolutionary types out there" are evil and should be tased first, questioned later (if they survive).

I guess I'm more for judging things on their individual merits. It's frustrating how some of these threads come off, and then those of us don't believe we instantly know precisely what happened are the bad guys or "apologists."

I always appreciate that you post these things. I just wish the reactions were rational. Please don't retort with saying "well the police aren't rational! and we have a right to be angry!" because if getting angry is going to render us all irrational, then figure it out: someone's already achieved their goal. Blanket anger at all cops is what that subset I described earlier already assumes we feel. A speeder could be Osama Bin Laden! That drug dealer is probably selling heroin to five year olds! Think the worst. Act like you're dealing with scum, because they're all scum. Statements like some of those in this and a few other threads just add "you see? those Ron Paul people want us all DEAD!" to the fire.

As I'm the only one who sees that as unhelpful, and only one of a few who would rather have something more solid than "they're cops, they're scum, what do you expect?" when discussing this story, I shall bow out of it.

I'm increasingly at odds with those who want to judge others based on the group they're a part of, but claim exemption from that same ignorant scrutiny.

[Anti Federalist]

As I'm the only one who sees that as unhelpful, and only one of a few who would rather have something more solid than "they're cops, they're scum, what do you expect?" when discussing this story, I shall bow out of it.

I'm increasingly at odds with those who want to judge others based on the group they're a part of, but claim exemption from that same ignorant scrutiny.

No need to leave, just a discussion going on.

Perhaps what you're missing is that I view the system as having gone rogue, corrupt and uncontrollable, it is no longer serving the prime directive and the contract with me, the people.

Therefore, if you serve the system, even if your intentions are Simon pure, you are still serving an evil corrupt system.

I'm sure that there were SS or KGB agents that were good family men, who loved their wives and children, played with their dogs and puttered in the garden over the weekend.

That does not negate the fact that the served an evil and corrupt regime. That they carried out duties that progressed from "reasonable" duties watching out for enemies of the state to herding people onto boxcars to get gassed.

That is why a "broad brush" can be used.

Put another way: there no good cops because there would be no bad cops.

[fisharmor]

I think the "there are no good cops" attitude is less about, "no cops whatsoever are good people," and more about, "no cops are good enough at their job to deserve it." There are plenty of cops who miraculously happen to be good people, and I don't think anyone's doubting this.

For clarification, whether or not a cop is a "good person" is not really where I was going with that. I'm sure there are some who outside of their careers who drive their elderly neighbors to get their prescriptions, or whatever else you want to use as a yard stick.

Whether or not they do a good job is also beside the point. The point for me is that the job is completely unnecessary and harmful.

Cops do not prevent crime. They do not investigate crimes that have already happened. They don't perform a job that society would agree to them doing: their job is to constantly circle us and look for trouble.

If you wanted to argue the merits of having sheriffs whose job it is to respond to incidents, or detectives who gather evidence to present in court or to secure warrants for the sheriffs to use, then I might agree with you.

But within the context of the beat cop, the thugs who we're talking about, the villains on the videos: they might do the job of the sheriffs, sometimes, but in that case they are redundant.

Unless, of course, you want to have a corps of individuals whose job it is to make regular, everyday citizens' lives miserable. I don't think sheriffs make that a habit, because their fundamental job is different: they are responders, not instigators.

The job definition right now is "Go forth and look for trouble". If that is the job definition, they're doing a bang-up job. And since that happens to be the job definition, anyone knowingly applying for that job is, in my eyes, not a good person. And when they have trouble delivered to them on a silver platter, we shouldn't be surprised that they treat it like a license to do every single thing they've trained to do.

[Brian4Liberty]

Davies said one officer used a Taser on Dodds, and two other officers used lethal force, firing at Dodds.
...
It is unclear how many shots were fired, or the sequence of events, Davies said.


Last year, we had an infamous event where a guy involved in a multi-person fight on BART (public transit) was shot by police while on the ground. The Officer had mistakenly grabbed his gun instead of the taser...

Looks like in this case, one guy accidentally pulled his taser instead of the gun. "Sorry guys, I was so nervous I grabbed the taser!".


Refuse to comply with their commands, even on your own property, and you're dead.


That is the key. Police training is a huge problem. In the US, that is how they are trained. That needs to be changed. You talk back, they yell. You yell or have attitude, they beat you. You pull a weapon of any kind, they shoot you. They are not there to calm down the situation, they are there to escalate and dominate it.

It's somewhat counter-intuitive, but they are more likely to abuse someone who is smaller. They will often give a huge guy a lot of respect before they attempt to escalate.

With a little guy: "Shut up and get on the ground, shithead, or we'll tase you and take you in!".

With a big guy: "Calm down, Sir. No reason to be upset. Can you tell us what is going on and why someone called us out here? We're here to help."

[loriebbecker]

According to AZ courts website, he has had a good amount of run-ins with the cops for various traffic cases and a lawsuit was filed against him and his wife in 2007.

Another report, including cop names:
http://www.kpho.com/news/22347425/detail.html



So 2 years and 4 years duty. Pretty "fresh" and I bet they're young and joined up right out of Iraq.

this man was a teacher for more than 30yrs i knew him for almost 20 and he also was my sons teacher. the sad thing is our children will learn from incidents like this will make children have hate and mistrust for the police. mr. dodds paid for teaching tools out of his own pocket and tought in south phoenix mostly imagine how many kids lifes he change i know first hand he changed mine. i would also like to add that aside from traffic tickets his neighbors said cops had never been there before.

[loriebbecker]

For clarification, whether or not a cop is a "good person" is not really where I was going with that. I'm sure there are some who outside of their careers who drive their elderly neighbors to get their prescriptions, or whatever else you want to use as a yard stick.

Whether or not they do a good job is also beside the point. The point for me is that the job is completely unnecessary and harmful.

Cops do not prevent crime. They do not investigate crimes that have already happened. They don't perform a job that society would agree to them doing: their job is to constantly circle us and look for trouble.

If you wanted to argue the merits of having sheriffs whose job it is to respond to incidents, or detectives who gather evidence to present in court or to secure warrants for the sheriffs to use, then I might agree with you.

But within the context of the beat cop, the thugs who we're talking about, the villains on the videos: they might do the job of the sheriffs, sometimes, but in that case they are redundant.

Unless, of course, you want to have a corps of individuals whose job it is to make regular, everyday citizens' lives miserable. I don't think sheriffs make that a habit, because their fundamental job is different: they are responders, not instigators.

The job definition right now is "Go forth and look for trouble". If that is the job definition, they're doing a bang-up job. And since that happens to be the job definition, anyone knowingly applying for that job is, in my eyes, not a good person. And when they have trouble delivered to them on a silver platter, we shouldn't be surprised that they treat it like a license to do every single thing they've trained to do.

it is nice to see that not everyone thinks just because they so called put their life on the line for us they are above us. i second and support this comment

[loriebbecker]

+1

For me, it's when I see a video of one cop stopping another cop from beating/murdering a civilian. Until then, until I see a video of one cop slamming a corrupt cop down on the pavement and handcuffing him, I will continue believing that there are no good cops. I don't think there exist one single video of a cop stopping another cop IN THE ACT of screwing us. Sure we hear about internal affairs and the FBI coming in and cleaning house, but that happens only after LONG train of abuses, corruption, or long after the public outcry becomes too loud to ignore.

All I want to see is a video of one cop saving a civilian from another cop who was in the process of infringing on the civilian's rights. Until then..... there are no good cops.

as a result of this murder of my former teacher who also tought my son many yrs later, my son hes hate for cops right now and he is sad about this whole thing, me i want to see them charged with murder and treated like criminals theirself. the family of this man had they had the ability to see the future wouldnt have called for help of the police instead of resolving the situation they eliminated him!!!!

[loriebbecker]

Does it occur to you, or to any of the other people in this thread with similar outlooks, that the "they started it" justification is likely what's used illogically by many police officers? Talk to some of these lunatics sometime. Everyone's a suspect to that particular subset, just like to some on this board every cop is a life-threatening jackbooted thug. It's the same broad brush, just another color.

Mini-Me DOES do an excellent job, yes, but my point still stands, and putting down fellow forum members as "dumb" because of an action (for which the person in question does not know the reason or justification in the OP; it could have been the 9-year-old that called 9-1-1 for all we know so far)... and also teaching your kids that every police officer is the enemy and to never call the police... what's the point of that? It's no different a hate than a "family of cops" teaching their younglings that all those "radical revolutionary types out there" are evil and should be tased first, questioned later (if they survive).

I guess I'm more for judging things on their individual merits. It's frustrating how some of these threads come off, and then those of us don't believe we instantly know precisely what happened are the bad guys or "apologists."

I always appreciate that you post these things. I just wish the reactions were rational. Please don't retort with saying "well the police aren't rational! and we have a right to be angry!" because if getting angry is going to render us all irrational, then figure it out: someone's already achieved their goal. Blanket anger at all cops is what that subset I described earlier already assumes we feel. A speeder could be Osama Bin Laden! That drug dealer is probably selling heroin to five year olds! Think the worst. Act like you're dealing with scum, because they're all scum. Statements like some of those in this and a few other threads just add "you see? those Ron Paul people want us all DEAD!" to the fire.

As I'm the only one who sees that as unhelpful, and only one of a few who would rather have something more solid than "they're cops, they're scum, what do you expect?" when discussing this story, I shall bow out of it.

I'm increasingly at odds with those who want to judge others based on the group they're a part of, but claim exemption from that same ignorant scrutiny.

it shoundnt matter who called police are sworn to protect and serve, i knew this man for about 20 yrs i have gotta first hand info from someone there during all of this those police should have saved him from himself if that is what was needed so what an officer could have gotten hit by a bat once or twice it wouldnt have killed him and the other two could have detained mr dodds. this kind of thing doesnt happen in south phoenix as much as you hear it happening in peoria, they have repps for being hard *****

[loriebbecker]

So they tazed him, THEN shot him? Good lord.

i seriously dont think they accually tased him. they said it was uneffective if they tased him why didnt it work he was an old man with a not so healthy heart. i have seen with my own eyes what tasers do if the taser was deployed it must have missed him so that is why there should have been more tasers than guns i hate those officers and wish the worst for them the worst!!!!!!!!!!!!! they are liers and i hope that his family sues their pants off after they get put in jail with all their friends. lol

[loriebbecker]

This just happened last night...

Peoria man, 62, killed in officer-involved shooting
http://www.yourwestvalley.com/news/peoria-12298-dodds-killed.html
January 26, 2010 11:47 AM
Staff report

A 62-year-old man was shot and killed by two Peoria police officers Monday night.

Officers responded to a family fight call at 7:15 p.m. in the 10600 block of Via Montoya, between Deer Valley and Pinnacle Peak roads, said Jay Davies, a Peoria Police Department spokesman.

Richard Allen Dodds, 62, was reportedly in an argument with his wife over finances when a family member called 911.

Dodds, who lived at the home with his wife, daughter, son-in-law and granddaughter, reportedly charged at officers with a baseball bat while inside the house, police said.

Davies said Dodds would not cooperate with commands, and officers feared for their lives.

Davies said one officer used a Taser on Dodds, and two other officers used lethal force, firing at Dodds.

Dodds was airlifted to an area hospital, where he was pronounced dead.

No other injuries were reported.

It is unclear how many shots were fired, or the sequence of events, Davies said.

The names of the officers involved, who are on paid leave, are expected to be released later today.

The incident remains under investigation.

they shot him three times and i will bet my life the taser if it was deployed it missed so why did two of the officers have to have their guns out isnt that sad. someone said they probably feel bad for having shot someone well i hope they do and remember they took a great man from us so i hope alot more but most of my thoughts about this all are so full of rage i dont want to sound like an idiot. well i geuss all i can do is get together as many people as i can in a demonstration of that sweet old man hopefully it will prompt justice on his behalf

[loriebbecker]

administrative leave that is a glorified way of saying paid vacation for murdering a person a good person. why not sent them home with nothing the state has asked other employees to take iou's so what makes them so special for paid leave

[Anti Federalist]

they shot him three times and i will bet my life the taser if it was deployed it missed so why did two of the officers have to have their guns out isnt that sad. someone said they probably feel bad for having shot someone well i hope they do and remember they took a great man from us so i hope alot more but most of my thoughts about this all are so full of rage i dont want to sound like an idiot. well i geuss all i can do is get together as many people as i can in a demonstration of that sweet old man hopefully it will prompt justice on his behalf

Sorry to welcome you to the forum under such rotten circumstances.

Here's hoping that justice will be done for this member of your community.

[Dieseler]

I'm very sorry as well loriebbecker, we do feel your pain and understand what your feeling with all the same righteous anger. Thanks for noticing us and helping to put a face on what might otherwise just have been another statistic.
Hang out awhile, this is a good place here.
Welcome, and I wish it was under better circumstance.

[loriebbecker]

Yeah, but cops are special, and they deserve the benefit of the doubt, because they put their lives on the line every day and are authorized by the state to do what they do! :rolleyes:

i hope your being funny cause they dont deserve anything but maybe their pay ck and most sertainly not the benefit of the doubt or paid leave what about the man they killed i knew him if anything he needed help not murdered, he was never violent and the police never were called to his house in the past

[loriebbecker]

I'm very sorry as well loriebbecker, we do feel your pain and understand what your feeling with all the same righteous anger. Thanks for noticing us and helping to put a face on what might otherwise just have been another statistic.
Hang out awhile, this is a good place here.
Welcome, and I wish it was under better circumstance.

yeh when i read what someone wrote about the fact they thought he should have got his head blown off ate at me all day long. there arent many teachers that do more than their job well he was one to buy learnig visual aid tools for math he was one you didnt get in trouble by cause you knew better but mostly everyone enjoyed having him to teach us he gave 200% to his students my son also had the privillage of having him for a teacher he sure was able to straighten out those troubled kids and turn then into real students and not just kids in school cause they had to be

[loriebbecker]

Sorry to welcome you to the forum under such rotten circumstances.

Here's hoping that justice will be done for this member of your community.

thanks and i hope the same. i have to go now i got a son addicted to gamebattles they need to enter using the computer even though it is the game system they use oh well i am so tired i will go to sleep hope to get back tomarrow and give updates if any thanks again for the support i think just getting my anger out this way has let me be able to breath and not feal like doind anything other than cryin

[malkusm]

yeh when i read what someone wrote about the fact they thought he should have got his head blown off ate at me all day long. there arent many teachers that do more than their job well he was one to buy learnig visual aid tools for math he was one you didnt get in trouble by cause you knew better but mostly everyone enjoyed having him to teach us he gave 200% to his students my son also had the privillage of having him for a teacher he sure was able to straighten out those troubled kids and turn then into real students and not just kids in school cause they had to be

Hey Lorie - we talked in the chatroom, but I figured I'd take the time to organize my thoughts better.

This was a senseless, needless killing in every respect. If government's job is to protect life and property, they have clearly violated it in this case. I believe all that you say about Mr. Dodds and his good character, much more than I believe the news organizations that try to make their reporting acceptable to their readers first and truthful second.

My thoughts: Organize your energy into something positive. Get your community together to call into this police force and demand that the officers involve be fired. Motivate everyone you can to write in to the local paper demanding accountability of your local force, and emphasizing the good character of this man. Send a card around at your office or a local business and have everyone - especially former students - sign it, to send to his wife and the family. Even if you've never organized or initiated an effort like this, your motivation and passion will be seen by a lot of people who you encounter. It will, at worst, produce nothing - but efforts like this have the power to change your community, which is an important first step.

As others have said, we are glad you have come here as a place of refuge, and we hope that you will stick around to help us all take our country back, and to make it a safer and more prosperous place for our future generations to live.

[Pants]

Time to bring out the song "Fu** The Police" by NWA.

Funny video with the Muppets here.. http://www.pp2g.tv/vanh5aw__.aspx

[Anti Federalist]

YouTube - NWA-fuck tha police (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6ehjrOR2pY)