Hayworth is in. Running against McCain [Archive] - Ron Paul Forums / Liberty Forest

MelissaWV

01-23-2010, 01:07 PM

AJ Antimony

01-23-2010, 01:27 PM

Wow those of you that like Hayworth really need to get the fuck off these message boards. Maybe you should take 5 minutes of your time and look up his voting record. He is NOT anyone we should support. Period.

This MB needs a new policy: any morons that call for us to support neocons should be permanently BANNED.

PaleoPaul

01-23-2010, 01:35 PM

The only flaws I find in Hayworth are voting for Patriot and Iraq.

ChaosControl

01-23-2010, 01:53 PM

Seems like a more conservative Neocon. He is an improvement though.

TCE

01-23-2010, 02:01 PM

Oh yay! Another "lesser evil"!

If I were the GOP, and I wanted to win, I'd run a bunch of "slightly better than"s against the establishment GOP folks, and I'd still get my agenda in play.

Nah. They couldn't be doing something like that.

I'm sure it's only a matter of time before more and more "liberty candidates" start popping up along those lines. You know, "tea party candidates." Rather like how the news mentions Rand... but they also mention four or five other "tea party candidates" and Rand's individual message really doesn't get out.

There is a monumental difference between monetarily supporting a candidate and hoping he/she wins against a worse candidate. Hayworth is no liberty candidate, and I doubt many on here will argue that point. However, he is better than McCain on several issues, so, in the battle of the titans, we can root for Hayworth from the sidelines.

PaleoPaul: Those are pretty huge.

MelissaWV

01-23-2010, 02:04 PM

There is a monumental difference between monetarily supporting a candidate and hoping he/she wins against a worse candidate. Hayworth is no liberty candidate, and I doubt many on here will argue that point. However, he is better than McCain on several issues, so, in the battle of the titans, we can root for Hayworth from the sidelines.

PaleoPaul: Those are pretty huge.

TCE: Were you here for the recent Brown threads? The "less-neo-neocon" thing is becoming more and more common. I'm not a big conspiracy nut, but this sounds like a winning GOP strategy to me.

Can't beat 'em, can't join 'em, but we could always trick 'em into joining us.

dr. hfn

01-23-2010, 02:05 PM

i will never compromise my principles and help a neocon

Endgame

01-23-2010, 02:18 PM

The only flaws I find in Hayworth are voting for Patriot and Iraq.

That's like you order a burger at a restaurant and "the only flaws are the pubic hair and a turd sandwiched between the buns".

TCE

01-23-2010, 02:24 PM

TCE: Were you here for the recent Brown threads? The "less-neo-neocon" thing is becoming more and more common. I'm not a big conspiracy nut, but this sounds like a winning GOP strategy to me.

Can't beat 'em, can't join 'em, but we could always trick 'em into joining us.

I was. I subscribe to that theory somewhat. If there was a choice between a neo-con who supports dangerous liberal policies such as Cap-and-Trade versus a conservative neo-con who doesn't support anything the Democrats put forth, I am going to be rooting for the latter candidate. However, Simcox also remains in the race, so, if I lived in Arizona, he'd get my vote.

A Republican will win no matter what in Arizona, whether it's Hayworth or McCain is the question. If the GOP is trying to primary McCain, that's different, but I seriously doubt they are.

Your definition of "joining" them is completely different. With Rand, for instance, I am willing to publicize his money bombs, advertise for him, and do whatever I can. For Hayworth, I'll just be watching that race and hope he beats McCain.

parocks

01-23-2010, 02:44 PM

Finally! Glad he did it after Palin's endorsement too, hes not afraid of her.

He saw what happened in Massachusetts. He saw what happened to Palin after she announced she'd help McCain.

He's polling pretty well. Simcox is not (under 5%).

This is great news and I agree that we should support Hayworth.

parocks

01-23-2010, 02:47 PM

Agree. It would send a message to the RINOs, and also to limited government conservatives, saying that Republican Primary voters are trying to root out the RINOs.

Nuke him. If McCain gets tossed overboard, it would be a Scott Brown like message to the RINOs and a crushing rebuke to the mainstream GOP.

parocks

01-23-2010, 02:51 PM

kinda, but he's not so bad as McShame. We don't have any anti-war/RP candidates in the AZ GOP for this job, so he's the best shot if you want to work within the system IMO.

Actually, theres Chris Simcox. We could be looking at Brown vs Kennedy vs Coakley II here, where Hayworth = Brown, Simcox = Kennedy, McCain = Coakley.

MelissaWV

01-23-2010, 02:52 PM

I should have put it in quotes. The "join 'em" remark was more from the point of view of the GOP. They can't make the liberty movement go away, and they can't compromise their stuffy, stupid, archaic methods for a ragtag group, so perhaps if they get enough "Palin seems not bad" and "This candidate's not as bad as the last one" and combine that with "hey, we're Tea Party people, too!"... then they have tricked enough people into "joining 'em" that they don't have to worry anymore.

I was. I subscribe to that theory somewhat. If there was a choice between a neo-con who supports dangerous liberal policies such as Cap-and-Trade versus a conservative neo-con who doesn't support anything the Democrats put forth, I am going to be rooting for the latter candidate. However, Simcox also remains in the race, so, if I lived in Arizona, he'd get my vote.

A Republican will win no matter what in Arizona, whether it's Hayworth or McCain is the question. If the GOP is trying to primary McCain, that's different, but I seriously doubt they are.

Your definition of "joining" them is completely different. With Rand, for instance, I am willing to publicize his money bombs, advertise for him, and do whatever I can. For Hayworth, I'll just be watching that race and hope he beats McCain.

The Patriot

01-23-2010, 02:59 PM

He saw what happened in Massachusetts. He saw what happened to Palin after she announced she'd help McCain.

He's polling pretty well. Simcox is not (under 5%).

This is great news and I agree that we should support Hayworth.

What do you mean we?

What is his position on the two wars?

What is his position on the IRS?

What is his position on the Federal Reserve?

What is his position on NAFTA, GATT, CAFTA, WTO?

What is his position on the bailouts?

What is his position on illegal immigration?

I won't support someone just because they aren't McCain. People on this board should support Chris Simcox because he is right on all the big issues, he addresses Illegal immigration, the federal reserve, and foreign policy and he is right on all those issues. I know Simcox is polling low, but by your logic we shouldn't have supported Ron Paul in primaries because he polled low. I personally am not in it to pick a winner, I am in it to pick a guy who has the best stances on the issues. If Simcox is polling low we should campaign and donated and spread the word on him to gget his numbers up, not give up on him and jump ship to some Neo Conservative like Hayworth.

Austrian Econ Disciple

01-23-2010, 03:04 PM

Agree. It would send a message to the RINOs, and also to limited government conservatives, saying that Republican Primary voters are trying to root out the RINOs.

This is non-sense. We are the RINOs. Not only that, Hayworth is just a tinge less Neo than McCain. How is that a sending a message? The only message that is sent is that we like to eat turd sandwiches as long as they have a R behind their name. SOME MESSAGE!!! I notice you pimped Brown and now Hayworth. Neo's trying to infiltrate. Weed them out!

The Patriot

01-23-2010, 03:08 PM

This is non-sense. We are the RINOs. Not only that, Hayworth is just a tinge less Neo than McCain. How is that a sending a message? The only message that is sent is that we like to eat turd sandwiches as long as they have a R behind their name. SOME MESSAGE!!! I notice you pimped Brown and now Hayworth. Neo's trying to infiltrate. Weed them out!

I am not even a RINO, I am not a Republican at all.

Austrian Econ Disciple

01-23-2010, 03:10 PM

I am not even a RINO, I am not a Republican at all.

The only reason I'm registered as a Republican is because I'm too lazy to change back to Libertarian from the Ron Paul campaign. That and I feel confident he's going to run again in 2011 so, I'm just going to stay R and work 200% harder this go around. I'm thinking since I'll be discharged Oct 22 2011, I'll try and find places to crash around the country to work on the campaign trail. RP'ers bunk ups, instead of meet ups :p

After the campaign season then I can return to my regular plans. IE Finishing college :p

parocks

01-23-2010, 03:12 PM

I'm not sure what you mean about conspiracy.

To most, McCain is the biggest RINO target of all, and people to the right of McCain want to defeat him.

There are a lot of people in that group, limited goverment conservatives, tea partiers, what have you, and the McCain race will be closely watched and could be huge.

I'm not sure I know what you meand by strategy as in winning GOP strategy.

Conservatives would like the Republican Party to stay out of this race, and not throw piles of money at McCain to beat Hayworth. If conservatives are able to consistently get rid of the worst RINOs, that would be a good thing. I'm not sure getting rid of McCain would be the official Republican Party strategy. But people who are disenchanted with the Republican party because they feel it's insufficiently conservative would be pleased with a McCain loss.

TCE: Were you here for the recent Brown threads? The "less-neo-neocon" thing is becoming more and more common. I'm not a big conspiracy nut, but this sounds like a winning GOP strategy to me.

Can't beat 'em, can't join 'em, but we could always trick 'em into joining us.

The Patriot

01-23-2010, 03:16 PM

The only reason I'm registered as a Republican is because I'm too lazy to change back to Libertarian from the Ron Paul campaign. That and I feel confident he's going to run again in 2011 so, I'm just going to stay R and work 200% harder this go around. I'm thinking since I'll be discharged Oct 22 2011, I'll try and find places to crash around the country to work on the campaign trail. RP'ers bunk ups, instead of meet ups :p

After the campaign season then I can return to my regular plans. IE Finishing college :p

I am registered independent. I consider myself a Classical Liberal, not a libertarian. While I identify with a lot of their planks, I don't share all the values of the modern Day Libertarian Party. I will register Republican if Paul or someone else pops out of the woodwork to run in 2012 and the same goes for Republican gubernatorial primaries. I definitely plan on campaigning for Paul at my college, I am a member of the Libertarian club(I identify closest with them as opposed to Republicans), and we will no doubt get out the vote for Ron Paul.

parocks

01-23-2010, 03:23 PM

What's my join date? What's your join date?

Take a look at some of my posts from 2007 and Jan 2008.
I did go to NH for 3 days in 2008 and worked for Ron Paul.

Anyway, McCain is seen by most as the worst RINO, it would be a good thing to defeat him. And every election, take out the worst RINO. It moves the Republican party to the right. It's a good solid plan.

This is non-sense. We are the RINOs. Not only that, Hayworth is just a tinge less Neo than McCain. How is that a sending a message? The only message that is sent is that we like to eat turd sandwiches as long as they have a R behind their name. SOME MESSAGE!!! I notice you pimped Brown and now Hayworth. Neo's trying to infiltrate. Weed them out!

Austrian Econ Disciple

01-23-2010, 03:26 PM

What's my join date? What's your join date?

Take a look at some of my posts from 2007 and Jan 2008.
I did go to NH for 3 days in 2008 and worked for Ron Paul.

Anyway, McCain is seen by most as the worst RINO, it would be a good thing to defeat him. And every election, take out the worst RINO. It moves the Republican party to the right. It's a good solid plan.

We don't have 70 years. We maybe have 4 at most. It's not a good plan. Secondly, we don't want to move the party to the right or left. We want the Party to embody libertarian philosophy.

TCE

01-23-2010, 03:33 PM

I should have put it in quotes. The "join 'em" remark was more from the point of view of the GOP. They can't make the liberty movement go away, and they can't compromise their stuffy, stupid, archaic methods for a ragtag group, so perhaps if they get enough "Palin seems not bad" and "This candidate's not as bad as the last one" and combine that with "hey, we're Tea Party people, too!"... then they have tricked enough people into "joining 'em" that they don't have to worry anymore.

We aren't joining anything, we are merely hoping McCain loses to someone who is more conservative.

Austrian: We do want that. Take a look at this chart: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=thGOEQGk93N120229dGXyWA&gid=2

We want to pull as many Republicans to the Coburn/DeMint portion as possible. DeMint and Coburn are considered true conservatives/somewhat libertarian while Kyl and everyone up from that is more of a Neo-Con. I would much prefer another DeMint in the Senate over McCain. With your 4 years logic, which I somewhat agree with myself, this is meaningless anyway and will only serve as a distraction, which I am fine with. Even if we get all of our liberty candidates elected, the dollar will still collapse and chaos will still ensue. If Medina wins, Texas can secede, but the rest of us are screwed.

parocks

01-23-2010, 03:36 PM

I mean "we" in the same sense as Sofia meant we. I'm not as concerned with Hayworth's positions on the issues as I am with McCain's positions on the issues.

To me, it's about getting rid of the worst RINO, and that's McCain. There has been no doubt in my mind that many here wouldn't see it the same way.

This race is one of many Republican Primary contests this time around. Some people here might think that that the one guy that the most people here bitch about the most should be defeated. To me, this just makes sense.

But I'm not telling anyone to stop thinking about Rand and focus on Hayworth. I would think that priority number 1 would be Rand.

What do you mean we?

What is his position on the two wars?

What is his position on the IRS?

What is his position on the Federal Reserve?

What is his position on NAFTA, GATT, CAFTA, WTO?

What is his position on the bailouts?

What is his position on illegal immigration?

I won't support someone just because they aren't McCain. People on this board should support Chris Simcox because he is right on all the big issues, he addresses Illegal immigration, the federal reserve, and foreign policy and he is right on all those issues. I know Simcox is polling low, but by your logic we shouldn't have supported Ron Paul in primaries because he polled low. I personally am not in it to pick a winner, I am in it to pick a guy who has the best stances on the issues. If Simcox is polling low we should campaign and donated and spread the word on him to gget his numbers up, not give up on him and jump ship to some Neo Conservative like Hayworth.

Austrian Econ Disciple

01-23-2010, 03:48 PM

We aren't joining anything, we are merely hoping McCain loses to someone who is more conservative.

Austrian: We do want that. Take a look at this chart: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=thGOEQGk93N120229dGXyWA&gid=2

We want to pull as many Republicans to the Coburn/DeMint portion as possible. DeMint and Coburn are considered true conservatives/somewhat libertarian while Kyl and everyone up from that is more of a Neo-Con. I would much prefer another DeMint in the Senate over McCain. With your 4 years logic, which I somewhat agree with myself, this is meaningless anyway and will only serve as a distraction, which I am fine with. Even if we get all of our liberty candidates elected, the dollar will still collapse and chaos will still ensue. If Medina wins, Texas can secede, but the rest of us are screwed.

I thought we wanted Ron Paul libertarians (Austro-libertarians), not DeMint types....am I in the wrong movement?

The Patriot

01-23-2010, 03:49 PM

I thought we wanted Ron Paul libertarians, not DeMint types....am I in the wrong movement?

Yea, is Jim Thompson running Ron Paul forums now?

AuH20

01-23-2010, 04:08 PM

I thought we wanted Ron Paul libertarians (Austro-libertarians), not DeMint types....am I in the wrong movement?

But since there are a dearth of Ron Paul types, we support the Demints. At least I do, since I have so much in common with them. If there were more RP types, we'd back them but they're an endangered species. I consider Coburn and DeMint strong allies.

AuH20

01-23-2010, 04:17 PM

What do you mean we?

What is his position on the two wars?

What is his position on the IRS?

What is his position on the Federal Reserve?

What is his position on NAFTA, GATT, CAFTA, WTO?

What is his position on the bailouts?

What is his position on illegal immigration?

I won't support someone just because they aren't McCain. People on this board should support Chris Simcox because he is right on all the big issues, he addresses Illegal immigration, the federal reserve, and foreign policy and he is right on all those issues. I know Simcox is polling low, but by your logic we shouldn't have supported Ron Paul in primaries because he polled low. I personally am not in it to pick a winner, I am in it to pick a guy who has the best stances on the issues. If Simcox is polling low we should campaign and donated and spread the word on him to gget his numbers up, not give up on him and jump ship to some Neo Conservative like Hayworth.

I donated to Simcox as well but I am perplexed why he is polling so low.

TCE

01-23-2010, 10:00 PM

I thought we wanted Ron Paul libertarians (Austro-libertarians), not DeMint types....am I in the wrong movement?

So, if the contest is a DeMint conservative against a liberal Republican who is anti-freedom in almost every way, I should stay home and not vote? I should just step aside and let the anti-freedom candidate win? I would pick 40 DeMints over 60 liberal Republicans any day of the week.

dgr

01-23-2010, 11:02 PM

I tried to make this same point to the "GET OUY OF OUR HOUSE'' group, if you do not have enough candidates to run, you must target, liberal democrats and elitist republicians . Identify the representative who voted on the issues most important to you, anyone who voted against every bailout, the stimulis, health care and amnesty, should be your lowest target and everyone who voted for all of them should be your highest target.
as for the Iraq war , the fact that they swallowed Bush's lies that he got from Cheney showes stupidity, but only a few have actually come out and said they made the wrong vote.
But they must agree to stop supporting this "never stood a chance to succede Cheney war for profit.

AJ Antimony

01-24-2010, 12:39 PM

but since there are a dearth of ron paul types, we support the demints. At least i do, since i have so much in common with them. If there were more rp types, we'd back them but they're an endangered species. I consider coburn and demint strong allies.

coburn voted for the fucking bailout!

AJ Antimony

01-24-2010, 12:40 PM

So, if the contest is a DeMint conservative against a liberal Republican who is anti-freedom in almost every way, I should stay home and not vote? I should just step aside and let the anti-freedom candidate win? I would pick 40 DeMints over 60 liberal Republicans any day of the week.

You can do whatever you want... but as soon as people with this attitude come on THESE boards and TELL OTHERS to support neocons, then that crosses the line.

AuH20

01-24-2010, 02:16 PM

coburn voted for the fucking bailout!

I'm going to discard the most conservative senator per the Freedom Index (Coburn 100, Demint 90, Paul 100) , because he got frightened into voting for the bailout? Are you sure you want to embark on the next Spanish Inquisition?
http://www.thenewamerican.com/files/Freedom_Index_111-1.pdf

http://hotair.com/archives/2008/09/29/coburn-supports-bailout-bill/
He reluctantly voted for the thing.

AJ Antimony

01-24-2010, 05:12 PM

I'm going to discard the most conservative senator per the Freedom Index (Coburn 100, Demint 90, Paul 100) , because he got frightened into voting for the bailout? Are you sure you want to embark on the next Spanish Inquisition?
http://www.thenewamerican.com/files/Freedom_Index_111-1.pdf

http://hotair.com/archives/2008/09/29/coburn-supports-bailout-bill/
He reluctantly voted for the thing.

Who gives a shit what the "Freedom Index" says, it obviously didn't account for the bailout vote which is odd.

And who gives a shit whether he liked the bailout or not?

The fact is, you're a fan of someone who voted FOR the bailout.

TCE

01-24-2010, 05:23 PM

You can do whatever you want... but as soon as people with this attitude come on THESE boards and TELL OTHERS to support neocons, then that crosses the line.

So, if I'm correct, then: Translation: "You suck, but luckily there aren't more people like you on these boards, so go about your merry way." Or is it: "You suck, but luckily you're not actually trying to convert people, you are just making your opinion known." Either way, ouch.

I personally am extremely libertarian. I know that Austrian Econ Disciple is considered radical, even for these boards, but I am extremely close to that level of libertarianism. However, I am also a realist. I know there is no way we can takeover Congress by 2010 or even 2012. So, in the mean time, I want people as placeholders who are at least the "lesser of two evils." While yes, the lesser of two evils is still an evil, it is less evil, and for now, in those seats across the country, that is all we can hope for.