Robert E Lee's Birthday Today

[The Patriot]

http://whitewraithe.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/general-robert-e-lee-001.jpg

http://www.civilwarhome.com/leebio.htm

"With all my devotion to the Union and the feeling of loyalty and duty of an American citizen, I have not been able to make up my mind to raise my hand against my relatives, my children, my home. I have therefore resigned my commission in the Army, and save in defense of my native State, with the sincere hope that my poor services may never be needed, I hope I may never be called on to draw my sword....." Lee in a letter to his sister, April 20, 1861

The idol of the South to this day, Virginian Robert E. Lee had some difficulty in adjusting to the new form of warfare that unfolded with the Civil war, but this did not prevent him from keeping the Union armies in Virginia at bay for almost three years. The son of Revolutionary War hero "Light Horse" Harry Lee-who fell into disrepute in his later years attended West Point and graduated second in his class. During his four years at the military academy he did not earn a single demerit and served as the cadet corps' adjutant. Upon his 1829 graduation he was posted to the engineers. Before the Mexican War he served on engineering projects in Georgia, Virginia, and New York. During the war he served on the staffs of John Wool and Winfield Scott. Particularly distinguishing himself scouting for and guiding troops, he won three brevets and was slightly wounded at Chapultepec.
Following a stint in Baltimore Harbor he became superintendent of the military academy in 1852. When the mounted arm was expanded in 1855, Lee accepted the lieutenant colonelcy of the 2nd Cavalry in order to escape from the painfully slow promotion in the engineers. Ordered to western Texas, he served with his regiment until the 1857 death of his father-in-law forced him to ask for a series of leaves to settle the estate.
In 1859 he was called upon to lead a force of marines, to join with the militia on the scene, to put an end to John Brown's Harper's Ferry Raid. Thereafter he served again in Texas until summoned to Washington in 1861 by Winfield Scott who tried to retain Lee in the U. S. service. But the Virginian rejected the command of the Union's field forces on the day after Virginia seceded. He then accepted an invitation to visit Governor John Letcher in Virginia. His resignation as colonel, 1st Cavalry-to which he had recently been promoted-was accepted on April 25, 1861.
His Southern assignments included: major general, Virginia's land and naval forces (April 23, 1861); commanding Virginia forces (April 23 July 1861); brigadier general, CSA (May 14, 186 1); general, CSA (from June 14, 186 1); commanding Department of Northwestern Virginia (late July-October 1861); commanding Department of South Carolina, Georgia and Florida (November 8, 186 1-March 3, 1862); and commanding Army of Northern Virginia June 1, 1862-April 9, 1865).
In charge of Virginia's fledgling military might, he was mainly involved in organizational matters. As a Confederate brigadier general, and later full general, he was in charge of supervising all Southern forces in Virginia. In the first summer of the war he was given his first field command in western Virginia. His Cheat Mountain Campaign was a disappointing fizzle largely due to the failings of his superiors. His entire tenure in the region was unpleasant, dealing with the bickering of his subordinates-William W. Loring, John B. Floyd, and Henry A. Wise. After this he became known throughout the South as "Granny Lee. " His debut in field command had not been promising, but Jefferson Davis appointed him to command along the Southern Coast.
Early in 1862 he was recalled to Richmond and made an advisor to the president. From this position he had some influence over military operations, especially those of Stonewall Jackson in the Shenandoah Valley. When Joseph E. Johnston launched his attack at Seven Pines, Davis and Lee were taken by surprise and rode out to the field. In the confusion of the fight Johnston was badly wounded, and that night Davis instructed Lee to take command of what he renamed the Army of Northern Virginia. He fought the second day of the battle but the initiative had already been lost the previous day. Later in the month, in a daring move, he left a small force in front of Richmond and crossed the Chickahominy to strike the one Union corps north of the river. In what was to be called the Seven Days Battles the individual fights-Beaver Dam Creek, Gaines' Mill, Savage Station, Glendale, White Oak Swamp, and Malvern Hill-were all tactical defeats for the Confederates. But Lee had achieved the strategic goal of removing McClellan's army from the very gates of Richmond.
This created a new opinion of Lee in the South. He gradually became "Uncle Robert" and "Marse Robert." With McClellan neutralized, a new threat developed under John Pope in northern Virginia. At first Lee detached Jackson and then followed with Longstreet's command. Winning at 2nd Bull Run, he moved on into Maryland but suffered the misfortune of having a copy of his orders detailing the disposition of his divided forces fall into the hands of the enemy. McClellan moved with unusual speed and Lee was forced to fight a delaying action along South Mountain while waiting for Jackson to complete the capture of Harpers Ferry and rejoin him. He masterfully fought McClellan to a stand still at Antietam and two days later recrossed the Potomac.
Near the end of the year he won an easy victory over Burnside at Fredericksburg and then trounced Hooker in his most creditable victory at Chancellorsville, where he had detached Jackson with most of the army on a lengthy flank march while he remained with only two divisions in the immediate front of the Union army. Launching his second invasion of the North, he lost at Gettysburg. On the third day of the battle he displayed one of his major faults when at Malvern Hill and on other fields-he ordered a massed infantry assault across a wide plain, not recognizing that the rifle, which had come into use since the Mexican War, put the charging troops under fire for too long a period. Another problem was his issuance of general orders to be executed by his subordinates.
Returning to Virginia he commanded in the inconclusive Bristoe and Mine Run campaigns. From the Wilderness to Petersburg he fought a retiring campaign against Grant in which he made full use of entrenchments, becoming known as "Ace of Spades" Lee. Finally forced into a siege, he held on to Richmond and Petersburg for nearly 10 months before beginning his retreat to Appomattox, where he was forced to surrender. On January 23, 1865, he had been named as commander in chief of the Confederate armies but he found himself too burdened in Virginia to give more than general directives to the other theaters.
Lee returned to Richmond as a paroled prisoner of war, and submitted with the utmost composure to an altered destiny. He devoted the rest of his life to setting an example of conduct for other thousands of ex-Confederates. He refused a number of offers which would have secured substantial means for his family. Instead, he assumed the presidency of Washington College (now Washington and Lee University) in Lexington, Virginia, and his reputation revitalized the school after the war. Lee's enormous wartime prestige, both in the North and South, and the devotion inspired by his unconscious symbolism of the "Lost Cause" made his a legendary figure even before his death. He died on October 12 1870, of heart disease which had plagued him since the spring of 1863, at Lexington, Va. and is buried there. Somehow, his application for restoration of citizenship was mislaid, and it was not until the 1970's that it was found and granted.

[Elwar]

He got a kick ass car named after him...that should be sufficient.

[The Patriot]

He got a kick ass car named after him...that should be sufficient.

http://www.freecelebritymoviearchive.com/best/images/tours/Jessica-Simpson-Nude-Scene-1.jpg

[The Patriot]

bump for a great man.

[Dieseler]

Most interesting times we are living in, so interesting in fact that a quick study of this man and the history surrounding his reluctant yet most honorable rise to prominence would do many a great service today.
I fear our Union is approaching differences of a most similar attitude with its federal benefactors and all men might learn a lesson in loyalty from this most esteemed man who was offered the reins of the entire Union Army, yet declined to return to his home State.

[Derek Johnson]

General Lee was a good man. An abolishionist in the true sense: he (and General Jackson)viewed slavery as an evil...

...much different than "abolishionists" such as Abe Lincoln who wanted to purge the US as well the western terrirories of blacks via exportation to Liberia and the proposed "Lincolnia".

[Derek Johnson]

...but, as you know, the war between the states was over tariffs, not the slavery issue as you and I were trained

[The Patriot]

...but, as you know, the war between the states was over tariffs, not the slavery issue as you and I were trained

If the war was over slavery, he would have abolished slavery in northern slave states such as Delaware, Kentucky, Maryland, and Missouri.

It wasn't just tariffs, it was the fact that the tariffs overwhelmingly collected revenue from southerner planters and businesses and were redistributed to northern industry. Also, fear of the establishment of a National Bank and the Income Tax(National Banking Act; first income tax was levied under Lincoln) were reasons for Secession. Southerners predominantly Scotch-Irish culture heavily influenced their distrust of a growing Federal Government. Scotch Irish for nearly a millennia back in Ulster and before that Scotland had fought English Tyranny and union with Britain and had very tight knit klans. They didn't want to be part of a Union which was straying from the Constitutional Principles it was founded on(ie. expanding beyond the enumerated powers). 95% of southerners didn't own slaves yet they were eager to volunteer, and it wasn't because they wanted to secure the slave owing rights of a couple rich planters but because they wanted independence from a expanding and tyrannical federal government

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

General Robert E. Lee was one of the greatest men to ever live. RIP. He fought the War of Northern Aggression, strictly to the tee of the Christian Just War Theory. He is one of the most honorable men you could ever hope to witness. I also doubt you will ever find any troops more willing to die and fight for a cause, and a General who stood up for that cause against tyranny than in Gen. Robert E. Lee.

[The Patriot]

General Robert E. Lee was one of the greatest men to ever live. RIP. He fought the War of Northern Aggression, strictly to the tee of the Christian Just War Theory. He is one of the most honorable men you could ever hope to witness.

Not to mention, the United States started that war. They committed the first act of aggression by having troops stationed on Confederate Territory and resupplying them. Just War Theory totally allows for an invading force to be repelled.

[Derek Johnson]

If the war was over slavery, he would have abolished slavery in northern slave states such as Delaware, Kentucky, Maryland, and Missouri.

It wasn't just tariffs, it was the fact that the tariffs overwhelmingly collected revenue from southerner planters and businesses and were redistributed to northern industry. Also, fear of the establishment of a National Bank and the Income Tax(National Banking Act; first income tax was levied under Lincoln) were reasons for Secession. Southerners predominantly Scotch-Irish culture heavily influenced their distrust of a growing Federal Government. Scotch Irish for nearly a millennia back in Ulster and before that Scotland had fought English Tyranny and union with Britain and had very tight knit klans. They didn't want to be part of a Union which was straying from the Constitutional Principles it was founded on(ie. expanding beyond the enumerated powers). 95% of southerners didn't own slaves yet they were eager to volunteer, and it wasn't because they wanted to secure the slave owing rights of a couple rich planters but because they wanted independence from a expanding and tyrannical federal government

Yes. This is my point. Slavery was an issue in AL, GA, & MS from pamphlereering evidence, but as you point out, far from the dominating issue. The pamphleteers were the rich few who did own slaves, and the argument wasn't slavery, it was the right to do as the state pleased, including the horror of slavery to these pamphleteers. Slavery also ruined the Jackson/Van Buren restoration of the TJ-democrat-republican self government ideal. The dominant issue was the tariff-related economic misery, obviously. The secession legality flows from the secession condition for ratification of RI, VA, and NY. Slavery, financially was doomed, but Lincoln had Clay's "American (British) System" to install, and a free-market seceded south would have prevented such installation. Lincoln, Hamilton, and big government corporate crony fascism prevailed.

[The Patriot]

Yes. This is my point. Slavery was an issue in AL, GA, & MS from pamphlereering evidence, but as you point out, far from the dominating issue. The pamphleteers were the rich few who did own slaves, and the argument wasn't slavery, it was the right to do as the state pleased, including the horror of slavery to these pamphleteers. Slavery also ruined the Jackson/Van Buren restoration of the TJ-democrat-republican self government ideal. The dominant issue was the tariff-related economic misery, obviously. The secession legality flows from the secession condition for ratification of RI, VA, and NY. Slavery, financially was doomed, but Lincoln had Clay's "American (British) System" to install, and a free-market seceded south would have prevented such installation. Lincoln, Hamilton, and big government corporate crony fascism prevailed.

Karl Marx himself wrote Lincoln on January 28, 1865 to say, "Sir: We congratulate the American people upon your re-election by a large majority." In the same letter Marx assured Lincoln that the European communist movement was with him: "From the commencement of the titanic American strife the workingmen of Europe felt instinctively that the star-spangled banner carried the destiny of their class," the father of totalitarian communism wrote. (This and other of Marx’s writings can be found at www.marxists.org.)
http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo77.html

Lincoln is often credited with supporting the “War of Texas Independence”, yet the quote often used to support that statement was made in 1848 rather than 1836. When Texas won its independence, Lincoln had not even set for the bar exam. If his speech about how people can rise up and shake off the government was not about Texas, or the Mexican War, what uprising was Lincoln referring to? The year 1848 was the year of socialist and communist uprisings across Europe. Lincoln’s statements were supportive of those actions of renegade generals and mobs, yet he was opposed to the Mexican War. Those uprising occurred in Germany, France, Hungary, Italy and other locations as military leaders attempted implementing the socialist ideas of Marx and Engles by force.

Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right - a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can, may revolutionize, and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit. -- Abraham Lincoln January 12, 1848
http://hubpages.com/hub/A-Texan-looks-at-Lincoln-on-the-200th-anniversary-of-his-birth
************************************************** **************
So essentially he believed Socialists had the right to overthrow governments in their respective countries yet the CSA had no right to secede from his government.

[Galileo Galilei]

...but, as you know, the war between the states was over tariffs, not the slavery issue as you and I were trained

Sure it was. That's why the southern states mentioned slavery in their secession declarations and the Confederate Constitution put slavery into the text.

I'm from Wisconsin and our soldiers and my ancestors joined the Union army to end slavery. We in Wisconsin have a little less tolerance for slavery than in other parts. We helped slaves escape to freedom and our Supreme Court said "Up yours" to the Taney Court.

We in Wisconsin did not give a rats ass about tariffs, and our soldiers knew little or nothing about that issue. We never had slavery here in Wisconsin, either.

We figured it out at the get-go; the war was about slavery from day one. The God-damned southern states still kept their Jim Corw laws for another 100 years! Yikes! What's wrong with you people? Poll taxes in the 1960s and segregated schools in the 1950s, what the ef. Did you ever heart about the Enlightenment? That started after Galileo in the 1600s and 1700s. That's liberty for all people, not just white people. The South fought for one reason alone, to defend slavery. Everywhere else in the civilized world it was gone, or in a few places on the way out. But in the South? No! In the deep South slavery was still on the rise as census data proves.

[Derek Johnson]

Karl Marx himself wrote Lincoln on January 28, 1865 to say, "Sir: We congratulate the American people upon your re-election by a large majority." In the same letter Marx assured Lincoln that the European communist movement was with him: "From the commencement of the titanic American strife the workingmen of Europe felt instinctively that the star-spangled banner carried the destiny of their class," the father of totalitarian communism wrote. (This and other of Marx’s writings can be found at www.marxists.org.)
http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo77.html

Lincoln is often credited with supporting the “War of Texas Independence”, yet the quote often used to support that statement was made in 1848 rather than 1836. When Texas won its independence, Lincoln had not even set for the bar exam. If his speech about how people can rise up and shake off the government was not about Texas, or the Mexican War, what uprising was Lincoln referring to? The year 1848 was the year of socialist and communist uprisings across Europe. Lincoln’s statements were supportive of those actions of renegade generals and mobs, yet he was opposed to the Mexican War. Those uprising occurred in Germany, France, Hungary, Italy and other locations as military leaders attempted implementing the socialist ideas of Marx and Engles by force.

Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right - a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can, may revolutionize, and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit. -- Abraham Lincoln January 12, 1848
http://hubpages.com/hub/A-Texan-looks-at-Lincoln-on-the-200th-anniversary-of-his-birth
************************************************** **************
So essentially he believed Socialists had the right to overthrow governments in their respective countries yet the CSA had no right to secede from his government.

No argument.

You can find most, if not all of this info in Dilorenzo's "The Real Lincoln" or "Lincoln Unmasked". Two great reads, also "How Capitalism Saved America" and "Hamilton's Curse" are fantastic, thoroughly thought provoking and pursuasive against the state and towards liberty.

[Derek Johnson]

Sure it was. That's why the southern states mentioned slavery in their secession declarations and the Confederate Constitution put slavery into the text.

I'm from Wisconsin and our soldiers and my ancestors joined the Union army to end slavery. We in Wisconsin have a little less tolerance for slavery than in other parts. We helped slaves escape to freedom and our Supreme Court said "Up yours" to the Taney Court.

We in Wisconsin did not give a rats ass about tariffs, and our soldiers knew little or nothing about that issue. We never had slavery here in Wisconsin, either.

We figured it out at the get-go; the war was about slavery from day one. The God-damned southern states still kept their Jim Corw laws for another 100 years! Yikes! What's wrong with you people? Poll taxes in the 1960s and segregated schools in the 1950s, what the ef. Did you ever heart about the Enlightenment? That started after Galileo in the 1600s and 1700s. That's liberty for all people, not just white people. The South fought for one reason alone, to defend slavery. Everywhere else in the civilized world it was gone, or in a few places on the way out. But in the South? No! In the deep South slavery was still on the rise as census data proves.

Galileo Galilei, wrong. The Wisconsins that did get drafted or enlisted fought to save the union, the southerns fought over their right to secede over the hardships largely due to tariff related economic conditions.

Fyi:

"Everyone in Wisconsin did not support the war. Some were Democrats who honestly thought state's rights should prevail, or that the nation had been taken over by Republican extremists. Others, especially German Catholics, did not support the Lincoln administration which, to them, represented abolitionism, Yankee nativism, and Protestant godlessness. The draft that Lincoln institued in 1862 was especially intolerable to them, since many Germans had left their homeland to escape compulsory military service. On November 10, 1862, roughly 300 rioters attacked the draft office in Port Washington and vandalized the homes of Union supporters, until troops arrived to quell the disturbance. In Milwaukee that week, a mob of protesters shut down the draft proceedings, and in West Bend, the draft commissioner was beaten bloody and chased from the scene by opponents of the Civil War draft. But as the war continued and thousands of Wisconsin families lost fathers or sons, public opinion overwhelmingly backed Lincoln's efforts to preserve the union."

[Source: The History of Wisconsin vol. 2 (Madison: State Historical Society of Wisconsin); Kasparek, Jon, Bobbie Malone and Erica Schock. Wisconsin History Highlights: Delving into the Past (Madison: Wisconsin Historical Society Press, 2004); Barker, Brett. Exploring Civil War Wisconsin (Madison: Wisconsin Historical Society Press, 2003); McBride, Genevieve. On Wisconsin Women (Madison: University of Wisconsin Press, 1993)]

Also, for your consideration:

http://www.factasy.com/civil_war/2008/02/25/was_war_fought_over_slavery

* The war was fought over secession, not over slavery. If the South had not declared its independence, Lincoln would not have launched an invasion, and there would have been no war. The only slave states that were charged with insurrection and then invaded were those that belonged to the Confederacy. Would Lincoln and his fellow Republicans have accepted secession if the Confederacy had announced it was abolishing slavery as the first official act of its existence? Would the Republicans have allowed a peaceful separation if the Confederacy had started an emancipation program right after the First Battle of Manassas (Bull Run)? Any serious student of the Civil War will agree that the answer to both of these questions is no. I don't think anyone who has studied the subject believes the Republicans would have allowed the South to go in peace no matter when the Confederacy would have started to abolish slavery.

* In July 1861, the U.S. House of Representatives passed a resolution, by a nearly unanimous vote, that affirmed that the North was not waging the war to overthrow slavery but to preserve the Union (Klingaman, Abraham Lincoln and the Road to Emancipation, pp. 66-70). McPherson notes,

. . . in 1861 the North was fighting for the restoration of a slaveholding Union. In his July 4 message to Congress, Lincoln reiterated the inaugural pledge that he had "no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with slavery in the States where it exists." (Ordeal By Fire, p. 265)

* When Lincoln assumed office, he was entirely willing to allow slavery to continue. Lincoln even supported a constitutional amendment that would have given additional legal protection to slavery. When Lincoln issued his famous Emancipation Proclamation about two years later, he did so largely because he was under intense pressure from abolitionist Republicans in Congress, who were threatening to cut off funds from the army if Lincoln didn't issue some kind of emancipation statement. One only has to read the Emancipation Proclamation itself to see that it was a war measure that only applied to slaves who were in Confederate territory; it did not apply to any slaves who were in Union-controlled territory, not even to slaves who were in the four Union slave states. In addition, Bennett presents evidence that Lincoln himself tried to undermine the proclamation soon after he issued it, and that he issued it unwillingly (Forced Into Glory, pp. 22-29, 411-508). For that matter, Lincoln only began to consider issuing the proclamation after the Union war effort continued to falter (Klingaman, Abraham Lincoln and the Road to Emancipation, pp. 134-139; Robert Divine et al, America Past and Present, p. 460.)

* To be sure, some members of the Republican Party did believe the war should be waged for the purpose of abolishing slavery. Those who belonged to this faction of the party were commonly known as "Radical Republicans."

* There were important economic and political differences between the North and the South that were major reasons for the South's desire for independence. Prior to secession, the South had complained for decades about unfair, unconstitutional Northern economic policies, especially tariff policy. One of the seven ordinances of secession and two of the Declarations of Causes of Secession of the Deep South states mention unfair Northern economic policies. Jefferson Davis mentioned the South's complaints about Northern protectionist tariff policies in his first message to the Confederate congress (he cited the North's imposition of "burdens on commerce as a protection to their manufacturing and shipping interests"). In his famous speech on secession to the Georgia legislature, Robert Toombs spent the first half of the speech listing some of the South's economic complaints against the North, and he cited these complaints as reasons the South needed to be independent. Historian Frank Owsley discussed some of the reasons for these complaints:

The industrial North demanded a high tariff so as to monopolize the domestic markets, especially the Southern market. . . . It was an exploitative principle, originated at the expense of the South and for the benefit of the North. . . .

The industrial section demanded a national subsidy for the shipping business and merchant marine, but, as the merchant marine was alien to the Southern agrarian system, the two sections clashed. It was once more an exploitation of one section for the benefit of the other.

The industrial North demanded internal improvements--roads, railroads, canals, at national expense to furnish transportation for its goods to Southern and Western markets which were already hedged around for the benefit of the North by the tariff wall. . . .

There is much, much more I can and will provide (as will other members here) to educated you on the realities of "the war between the states" vs what you think you know about the "civil war".


We never had slavery here in Wisconsin, either.


1830s: Slaves are brought to southwest Wisconsin by lead miners from the South.
Davidson, J. N.
http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/turningpoints/search.asp?id=44

1846: A slave in Grant County sues his owner for wages
http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/wlhba/articleView.asp?pg=1&orderby=&id=5639

1846: The proposed state constitution would have allowed African Americans to vote:
http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/turningpoints/search.asp?id=54

1846: Debates about suffrage in the Constitutional Convention
http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/turningpoints/search.asp?id=55

[heavenlyboy34]

Thanks much for the fascinating post, sir. :cool::)


Karl Marx himself wrote Lincoln on January 28, 1865 to say, "Sir: We congratulate the American people upon your re-election by a large majority." In the same letter Marx assured Lincoln that the European communist movement was with him: "From the commencement of the titanic American strife the workingmen of Europe felt instinctively that the star-spangled banner carried the destiny of their class," the father of totalitarian communism wrote. (This and other of Marx’s writings can be found at www.marxists.org (http://www.marxists.org).)
http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo77.html (http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo77.html)

Lincoln is often credited with supporting the “War of Texas Independence”, yet the quote often used to support that statement was made in 1848 rather than 1836. When Texas won its independence, Lincoln had not even set for the bar exam. If his speech about how people can rise up and shake off the government was not about Texas, or the Mexican War, what uprising was Lincoln referring to? The year 1848 was the year of socialist and communist uprisings across Europe. Lincoln’s statements were supportive of those actions of renegade generals and mobs, yet he was opposed to the Mexican War. Those uprising occurred in Germany, France, Hungary, Italy and other locations as military leaders attempted implementing the socialist ideas of Marx and Engles by force.

Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right - a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can, may revolutionize, and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit. -- Abraham Lincoln January 12, 1848
http://hubpages.com/hub/A-Texan-looks-at-Lincoln-on-the-200th-anniversary-of-his-birth (http://hubpages.com/hub/A-Texan-looks-at-Lincoln-on-the-200th-anniversary-of-his-birth)
************************************************** **************
So essentially he believed Socialists had the right to overthrow governments in their respective countries yet the CSA had no right to secede from his government.

[Galileo Galilei]

Galileo Galilei, wrong. The Wisconsins that did get drafted or enlisted fought to save the union, the southerns fought over their right to secede over the hardships largely due to tariff related economic conditions.

Fyi:

"Everyone in Wisconsin did not support the war. Some were Democrats who honestly thought state's rights should prevail, or that the nation had been taken over by Republican extremists. Others, especially German Catholics, did not support the Lincoln administration which, to them, represented abolitionism, Yankee nativism, and Protestant godlessness. The draft that Lincoln institued in 1862 was especially intolerable to them, since many Germans had left their homeland to escape compulsory military service. On November 10, 1862, roughly 300 rioters attacked the draft office in Port Washington and vandalized the homes of Union supporters, until troops arrived to quell the disturbance. In Milwaukee that week, a mob of protesters shut down the draft proceedings, and in West Bend, the draft commissioner was beaten bloody and chased from the scene by opponents of the Civil War draft. But as the war continued and thousands of Wisconsin families lost fathers or sons, public opinion overwhelmingly backed Lincoln's efforts to preserve the union."

[Source: The History of Wisconsin vol. 2 (Madison: State Historical Society of Wisconsin); Kasparek, Jon, Bobbie Malone and Erica Schock. Wisconsin History Highlights: Delving into the Past (Madison: Wisconsin Historical Society Press, 2004); Barker, Brett. Exploring Civil War Wisconsin (Madison: Wisconsin Historical Society Press, 2003); McBride, Genevieve. On Wisconsin Women (Madison: University of Wisconsin Press, 1993)]

Also, for your consideration:

http://www.factasy.com/civil_war/2008/02/25/was_war_fought_over_slavery

* The war was fought over secession, not over slavery. If the South had not declared its independence, Lincoln would not have launched an invasion, and there would have been no war. The only slave states that were charged with insurrection and then invaded were those that belonged to the Confederacy. Would Lincoln and his fellow Republicans have accepted secession if the Confederacy had announced it was abolishing slavery as the first official act of its existence? Would the Republicans have allowed a peaceful separation if the Confederacy had started an emancipation program right after the First Battle of Manassas (Bull Run)? Any serious student of the Civil War will agree that the answer to both of these questions is no. I don't think anyone who has studied the subject believes the Republicans would have allowed the South to go in peace no matter when the Confederacy would have started to abolish slavery.

* In July 1861, the U.S. House of Representatives passed a resolution, by a nearly unanimous vote, that affirmed that the North was not waging the war to overthrow slavery but to preserve the Union (Klingaman, Abraham Lincoln and the Road to Emancipation, pp. 66-70). McPherson notes,

. . . in 1861 the North was fighting for the restoration of a slaveholding Union. In his July 4 message to Congress, Lincoln reiterated the inaugural pledge that he had "no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with slavery in the States where it exists." (Ordeal By Fire, p. 265)

* When Lincoln assumed office, he was entirely willing to allow slavery to continue. Lincoln even supported a constitutional amendment that would have given additional legal protection to slavery. When Lincoln issued his famous Emancipation Proclamation about two years later, he did so largely because he was under intense pressure from abolitionist Republicans in Congress, who were threatening to cut off funds from the army if Lincoln didn't issue some kind of emancipation statement. One only has to read the Emancipation Proclamation itself to see that it was a war measure that only applied to slaves who were in Confederate territory; it did not apply to any slaves who were in Union-controlled territory, not even to slaves who were in the four Union slave states. In addition, Bennett presents evidence that Lincoln himself tried to undermine the proclamation soon after he issued it, and that he issued it unwillingly (Forced Into Glory, pp. 22-29, 411-508). For that matter, Lincoln only began to consider issuing the proclamation after the Union war effort continued to falter (Klingaman, Abraham Lincoln and the Road to Emancipation, pp. 134-139; Robert Divine et al, America Past and Present, p. 460.)

* To be sure, some members of the Republican Party did believe the war should be waged for the purpose of abolishing slavery. Those who belonged to this faction of the party were commonly known as "Radical Republicans."

* There were important economic and political differences between the North and the South that were major reasons for the South's desire for independence. Prior to secession, the South had complained for decades about unfair, unconstitutional Northern economic policies, especially tariff policy. One of the seven ordinances of secession and two of the Declarations of Causes of Secession of the Deep South states mention unfair Northern economic policies. Jefferson Davis mentioned the South's complaints about Northern protectionist tariff policies in his first message to the Confederate congress (he cited the North's imposition of "burdens on commerce as a protection to their manufacturing and shipping interests"). In his famous speech on secession to the Georgia legislature, Robert Toombs spent the first half of the speech listing some of the South's economic complaints against the North, and he cited these complaints as reasons the South needed to be independent. Historian Frank Owsley discussed some of the reasons for these complaints:

The industrial North demanded a high tariff so as to monopolize the domestic markets, especially the Southern market. . . . It was an exploitative principle, originated at the expense of the South and for the benefit of the North. . . .

The industrial section demanded a national subsidy for the shipping business and merchant marine, but, as the merchant marine was alien to the Southern agrarian system, the two sections clashed. It was once more an exploitation of one section for the benefit of the other.

The industrial North demanded internal improvements--roads, railroads, canals, at national expense to furnish transportation for its goods to Southern and Western markets which were already hedged around for the benefit of the North by the tariff wall. . . .

There is much, much more I can and will provide (as will other members here) to educated you on the realities of "the war between the states" vs what you think you know about the "civil war".




1830s: Slaves are brought to southwest Wisconsin by lead miners from the South.
Davidson, J. N.
http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/turningpoints/search.asp?id=44

1846: A slave in Grant County sues his owner for wages
http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/wlhba/articleView.asp?pg=1&orderby=&id=5639

1846: The proposed state constitution would have allowed African Americans to vote:
http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/turningpoints/search.asp?id=54

1846: Debates about suffrage in the Constitutional Convention
http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/turningpoints/search.asp?id=55

You missed the point completely.

The soldiers who enlisted did not care about tariffs. They were lukewarm on saiving the Union. The soldiers opposed slavey.

You have confused Lincoln with the common soldiers.

I am not in disagreement that the people at the top started the war for tariffs.

[Galileo Galilei]

1830s: Slaves are brought to southwest Wisconsin by lead miners from the South.
Davidson, J. N.
http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/turningpoints/search.asp?id=44

1846: A slave in Grant County sues his owner for wages
http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/wlhba/articleView.asp?pg=1&orderby=&id=5639

1846: The proposed state constitution would have allowed African Americans to vote:
http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/turningpoints/search.asp?id=54

1846: Debates about suffrage in the Constitutional Convention
http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/turningpoints/search.asp?id=55

It wasn't Wisconsin until 1848.

[Galileo Galilei]

"Everyone in Wisconsin did not support the war.



Red herring. I am talking about the soldiers who joined the Union army.

[Derek Johnson]

You missed the point completely.

The soldiers who enlisted did not care about tariffs. They were lukewarm on saiving the Union. The soldiers opposed slavey.

You have confused Lincoln with the common soldiers.

I am not in disagreement that the people at the top started the war for tariffs.

You also have missed my point completely.

"On November 10, 1862, roughly 300 rioters attacked the draft office in Port Washington and vandalized the homes of Union supporters, until troops arrived to quell the disturbance. In Milwaukee that week, a mob of protesters shut down the draft proceedings, and in West Bend, the draft commissioner was beaten bloody and chased from the scene by opponents of the Civil War draft. But as the war continued and thousands of Wisconsin families lost fathers or sons, public opinion overwhelmingly backed Lincoln's efforts to preserve the union."

What does it say? Preserve the union or end southern slavery?

The protest was over the draft. Why did protest occur if saving the south from slavery was their motivation?

To say they, WI drafted or enlisted regulars, were motivated in large part to "free the south of slavery" is simply not true. You can not support this statement. Show me proof of your claim.

Of course the WI soldiers were not motivated to fight over the tariffs, because it did not affect them. They were hardly motivated due anything more than try to swallow Lincoln's agenda: saving the union.

[Derek Johnson]

Red herring. I am talking about the soldiers who joined the Union army.

No, your point is motivation. Wisconsin soldier motivation to forever end southern slavery.

This is called bullshit.

[Derek Johnson]

It wasn't Wisconsin until 1848.

It wasn't Wisconsin state until 1848. Previously it was called The Territory of Wisconsin. You also said that "We never had slavery here in Wisconsin". You exaggerated.

[Galileo Galilei]

You also have missed my point completely.

"On November 10, 1862, roughly 300 rioters attacked the draft office in Port Washington and vandalized the homes of Union supporters, until troops arrived to quell the disturbance. In Milwaukee that week, a mob of protesters shut down the draft proceedings, and in West Bend, the draft commissioner was beaten bloody and chased from the scene by opponents of the Civil War draft. But as the war continued and thousands of Wisconsin families lost fathers or sons, public opinion overwhelmingly backed Lincoln's efforts to preserve the union."

What does it say? Preserve the union or end southern slavery?

The protest was over the draft. Why did protest occur if saving the south from slavery was their motivation?

To say they, WI drafted or enlisted regulars, were motivated in large part to "free the south of slavery" is simply not true. You can not support this statement. Show me proof of your claim.

Of course the WI soldiers were not motivated to fight over the tariffs, because it did not affect them. They were hardly motivated due anything more than try to swallow Lincoln's agenda: saving the union.

all this shows as that people in Wisconsin opposed the draft. Almost all of the Union soldiers from Wisconsin voluteered and opposed slavery and wanted it ended. THIS INCLUDES THOSE WHO JOINED LATER.

Get it?

You act like if someone joins in 1863 or 1864 to end slavery, that doesn't count. It does.

[Galileo Galilei]

No, your point is motivation. Wisconsin soldier motivation to forever end southern slavery.

This is called bullshit.

No, you talk BS. Most Wisconsin soldiers volunteered for the army to fight for freedom, not for tariffs.

[Derek Johnson]

Almost all of the Union soldiers from Wisconsin voluteered and opposed slavery and wanted it ended.

You can prove this, right?

You can provide evidence that "Almost all of the Union soldiers from Wisconsin voluteered and opposed slavery and wanted it ended"?

I'm looking forward to the fruits of your efforts.

[Galileo Galilei]

It wasn't Wisconsin state until 1848. Previously it was called The Territory of Wisconsin. You also said that "We never had slavery here in Wisconsin". You exaggerated.

Wrong. I am talking about the State of Wisconsin. Before 1848, we were ruled by a federal territorial governor and did not have self rule.

When we had self rule, WE NEVER HAD SLAVERY.

[Galileo Galilei]

You can prove this, right?

You can provide evidence that "Almost all of the Union soldiers from Wisconsin voluteered and opposed slavery and wanted it ended"?

I'm looking forward to the fruits of your efforts.

You're not from Wisconsin, I have nothing to prove to you. What am I supposed to do, produce a Rasmussen poll form 1863?

[Derek Johnson]

No, you talk BS. Most Wisconsin soldiers volunteered for the army to fight for freedom, not for tariffs.

For the last time, my "Almost all of the Union soldiers from Wisconsin voluteered and opposed slavery and wanted it ended"-proof seeking friend...

...the southern motivation and the northern motivation to fight were far apart. The south did not want to fight at all. 75,000 regulars were marched into Virginia without congression consent. When the south did fight BACK, it was to retain their legal right of secession against the northern invaders.

This is the freedom of which you internet opine?

But please, provide me your evidence that ""Almost all of the Union soldiers from Wisconsin voluteered and opposed slavery and wanted it ended"...go ahead and get busy with all that.

[Sic Semper Tyrannis]

General Lee was a TRUE patriot for standing up against his government.

RIP

[Derek Johnson]

You're not from Wisconsin, I have nothing to prove to you. What am I supposed to do, produce a Rasmussen poll form 1863?

No, I'm from Iowa. And I have Union regular ancestors that were drafted into Lincoln's mess under the command of the horrific nightmare known as General Sherman.

General Sherman fought for "freedom" as well, correct?


I have nothing to prove to you.

If you can't prove your overly ridiculous claims...then don't spout "Almost all of the Union soldiers from Wisconsin voluteered and opposed slavery and wanted it ended" bullshit here or anywhere. K?

[Galileo Galilei]

No, I'm from Iowa. And I have Union regular ancestors that were drafted into Lincoln's mess under the command of the horrific nightmare known as General Sherman.

General Sherman fought for "freedom" as well, correct?



If you can't prove your overly ridiculous claims...then don't spout "Almost all of the Union soldiers from Wisconsin voluteered and opposed slavery and wanted it ended" bullshit here or anywhere. K?

Sherman wasn't from Wisconsin. He was a monster from another state.

[Galileo Galilei]

No, I'm from Iowa.

IOWA:

I Owe the World an Apology

[Southron]

Well whatever the reason for invading a sovereign republic, the outcome was tyranny.

[Derek Johnson]

Sherman wasn't from Wisconsin. He was a monster from another state.

Who cares where that piece of garbage was from? My point is that I'm not southern by birth, and I have no ancestory that I know of that were confederates or confederate soldiers. Yet, I know of at least one family member who served under Sherman. But history speaks for itself, and Lincoln apologists speak for themselves.

Regardless, your salvo against me was the cause of the civil war and the motivation to fight, which you have done nothing and provided nothing to prove your points, and everything to make yourself look foolish and uninformed to all who come and read this thread.

Congratulations. Now, where, again, is you evidence "Almost all of the Union soldiers from Wisconsin voluteered and opposed slavery and wanted it ended"?

[Galileo Galilei]

If you can't prove your overly ridiculous claims...then don't spout "Almost all of the Union soldiers from Wisconsin voluteered and opposed slavery and wanted it ended" bullshit here or anywhere. K?

What's your evidence that Wisconsin soldiers fought for tariffs? Produce it.

[Derek Johnson]

What's your evidence that Wisconsin soldiers fought for tariffs? Produce it.

You don't read what others post (#15, #20, #28), do you?

[Sic Semper Tyrannis]

"To be specific, the two just wars in American history were the American Revolution, and the War for Southern Independence."
- Murray Rothbard

"Just War" by Murray N. Rothbard (http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard20.html)

[Standing Like A Rock]

I believe that Robert E. Lee is the only man to ever graduate from West Point without a single demerit.

[The Patriot]

"To be specific, the two just wars in American history were the American Revolution, and the War for Southern Independence."
- Murray Rothbard

"Just War" by Murray N. Rothbard (http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard20.html)

I would personally add the Mexican-American War and the war of 1812. Otherwise, like usual, Rothbard is generally on the money.

[runningdiz]

I believe that Robert E. Lee is the only man to ever graduate from West Point without a single demerit.

Well I know that is false. Lee graduated second in his class and the guy who graduated first also received no demerits in his four years there. So at least one other person did not receive a single demerit.

[malkusm]

I live in the area, and I'm not sure if this made national news -- but does anyone find it funny that a person killed 8 people in Appomattox (where Lee surrendered), and surrendered alive, on his birthday??

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/20/AR2010012000659.html

[Dieseler]

Well I know that is false. Lee graduated second in his class and the guy who graduated first also received no demerits in his four years there. So at least one other person did not receive a single demerit.


He entered the United States Military Academy in 1825 and became the first cadet to achieve the rank of sergeant at the end of his first year. When he graduated in 1829 he was at the head of his class in artillery and tactics, and shared the distinction with five other cadets of having received no demerits during the four-year course of instruction. Overall, he ranked second in his class of 46.[5] He was commissioned as a brevet second lieutenant in the Corps of Engineers.

...

[Dieseler]

I live in the area, and I'm not sure if this made national news -- but does anyone find it funny that a person killed 8 people in Appomattox (where Lee surrendered), and surrendered alive, on his birthday??

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/20/AR2010012000659.html

I found that odd just about all day yesterday.
Still don't have much background info on it.

[Galileo Galilei]

Well whatever the reason for invading a sovereign republic, the outcome was tyranny.

The SLAVES never seceded from the Union. A tyrannical government kept them hostage. The PEOPLE have the RIGHT to abolish a tyrannical government.

[malkusm]

I found that odd just about all day yesterday.
Still don't have much background info on it.

From what I heard from co-workers: The man was an ex-Marine and worked as a security guard in Appomattox. Killed his wife and kid, and then went on a rampage in the town. Reinforcements were called in, and by evening last night there were 150 or so cops which had surrounded him to a 1-2 mile radius...they closed in on him and bunkered him in a building for around 6 hours until he surrendered himself this morning.

I thought the whole thing was bizarre/coincidental enough earlier today, being that he basically suffered the same fate as Lee....and now that I know that today is Lee's birthday, it's REALLY weird.

[Dieseler]

From what I heard from co-workers: The man was an ex-Marine and worked as a security guard in Appomattox. Killed his wife and kid, and then went on a rampage in the town. Reinforcements were called in, and by evening last night there were 150 or so cops which had surrounded him to a 1-2 mile radius...they closed in on him and bunkered him in a building for around 6 hours until he surrendered himself this morning.

I thought the whole thing was bizarre/coincidental enough earlier today, being that he basically suffered the same fate as Lee....and now that I know that today is Lee's birthday, it's REALLY weird.

He took down a police chopper as well, two shots to the fuel tank. No casualties among police, far as I know.
Lee's birthday was yesterday though.

[Galileo Galilei]

I would personally add the Mexican-American War and the war of 1812. Otherwise, like usual, Rothbard is generally on the money.

The War of 1812 was a just anti-Empire war.

[malkusm]

He took down a police chopper as well, two shots to the fuel tank. No casualties among police, far as I know.
Lee's birthday was yesterday though.

Yeah I heard that about the chopper, forgot to include that....

He started his rampage yesterday (Lee's birthday) and held out until this morning around 8 AM. Not sure what his personal convictions were, but maybe he'll offer some insight at his trial, since he is alive and in custody. :confused:

[Dieseler]

Yeah, hopefully so. I believe it was all coincidental that it took place on Lee's birthday and the same geographic area that Lee surrendered however.
If his intent was to mimic in some way Lee's surrender then April 9th would have been more appropriate.
Just a messed up guy I imagine.
Far removed from any semblance of April 9, 1865 and even farther removed from significant importance.

[Southron]

The SLAVES never seceded from the Union. A tyrannical government kept them hostage. The PEOPLE have the RIGHT to abolish a tyrannical government.

Yes but the fact is forcibly rejoining the southern states is also tyranny.

[Galileo Galilei]

Yes but the fact is forcibly rejoining the southern states is also tyranny.

Tyranny is part of the world, it is commonplace. The Southern states have no business complaining about Lincoln. Lincoln was a foreign tyrant.

That's one of the main points of the Union, protection against foreign tyrants. If the South had stayed in the Union, they would have been protected from foreign tyrants.

[Dieseler]

Tyranny is part of the world, it is commonplace. The Southern states have no business complaining about Lincoln. Lincoln was a foreign tyrant.

That's of the main points of the Union, protection against foreign tyrants. If the South had stayed in the Union, they would have been protected from foreign tyrants.

You're fucked up lol.
Seriously laughing my ass off.

[phill4paul]

You're fucked up lol.
Seriously laughing my ass off.

Kick 'em in the balls Dieseler!:D

[Derek Johnson]

Tyranny is part of the world, it is commonplace. The Southern states have no business complaining about Lincoln. Lincoln was a foreign tyrant.

That's of the main points of the Union, protection against foreign tyrants. If the South had stayed in the Union, they would have been protected from foreign tyrants.

This "foreign" tyrant in question didn't do any of this, did he?

1. Saying contradictory things before different audiences.

2. Opposing racial equality.

3. Opposing giving blacks the right to vote, serve on juries or intermarry while allegedly supporting their natural rights.

4. Being a racist.

5. Supporting the legal rights of slaveholders.

6. Supporting Clay’s American System or mercantilism as his primary political agenda: national bank, high tariff, and internal improvements.

7. Supporting a political economy that encourages corruption and inefficiency.

8. Supporting a political economy that became the blueprint for modern American.

9. Being a wealthy railroad lawyer.

10. Never defending a runaway slave.

11. Defending a slaveholder against his runaway slave.

12. Favoring returning ex-slaves to Africa or sending them to Central America and Haiti.

13. Proposing to strengthen the Fugitive Slave law.

14. Opposing the extension of slavery in the territories so that "free white people" can settle there and because allowing them to become slave states would dilute Republican influence in Congress because of the three-fifths rule.

15. Opposing black citizenship in Illinois or their right to immigrate to that state.

16. Failing to use his legendary political skills to achieve peaceful emancipation as was accomplished elsewhere – Lincoln's war was the only "war of emancipation" in the 19th.

17. Nullifying emancipation of slaves in Missouri and Georgia early in the war.

18. Stating that his primary motive was saving the union and not ending slavery.

19. Supporting a conscription law.

20. Sending troops into New York City to quell draft riots related to his emancipation proclamation, resulting in 300 to 1,000 deaths.

21. Starting a war that took the lives of 620,000 soldiers and 50,000 civilians and caused incalculable economic loss.

22. Being an enemy of free market capitalism.

23. Being an economic illiterate and espousing the labor theory of value.

24. Supporting a disastrous public works project in Illinois and continuing to support the same policies oblivious of the consequences.

25. Conjuring up a specious and deceptive argument against the historically-recognized right of state secession.

26. Lying about re-supplying the fed’s tax collection office known as Fort Sumter.

27. Refusing to see peace commissioners from the Confederacy offering to pay for all federal property in the South.

28. Refusing to see Napoleon III of France who offered to mediate the dispute.

29. Provoking Virginia to secede by taking military action against the Deep South.

30. Supporting a tariff and other policies that systematically redistributed wealth from the South to the North, causing great consternation in the South.

31. Invading the South without consulting Congress.

32. Illegally declaring martial law.

33. Illegally blockading ports.

34. Illegally suspending habeas corpus.

35. Illegally imprisoning thousands of Northern citizens.

36. Tolerating their subjection to inhumane conditions in prison.

37. Systematically attacking Northern newspapers and their employees, including by imprisonment.

38. Deporting his chief political enemy in the North, Congressman Clement L. Vallandigham of Ohio.

39. Confiscating private property and firearms.

40. Ignoring the Ninth and Tenth Amendments.

41. Tolerating the arrest of ministers who refused to pray for Lincoln.

42. Arresting several duly elected members of the Maryland Legislature along with the mayor of Baltimore and Maryland Congressman Henry May.

43. Placing Kansas and Kentucky under martial law.

44. Supporting a law that indemnified public officials for unlawful acts.

45. Laying the groundwork for the establishment of conscription and income taxation as permanent institutions.

46. Interfering with and rigging elections in Maryland and elsewhere in the North.

47. Censoring all telegraph communication.

48. Preventing opposition newspapers from being delivered by the post office.

49. Illegally creating the state of West Virginia out of the "indestructible" state of Virginia.

50. Tolerating or supporting mistreatment of citizens in conquered territory.

51. Taxing those citizens without their consent.

52. Executing those who refused to take a loyalty oath.

53.Closing churches and arresting ministers.

54. Burning and plundering Southern cites.

55. Quartering troops in private homes unlawfully.

56. Creating an enormous political patronage system.

57. Allowing an unjust mass execution of Sioux Indians in Minnesota.

58. Engineering a constitutional revolution through military force which destroyed state sovereignty and replaced it with rule by the Supreme Court (and the United States Army).

59. Laying the groundwork for the imperialist and militarist campaigns of the future as well as the welfare/warfare state.

60. Creating the dangerous precedent of establishing a strong consolidated state out of a decentralized confederation.

61. Effectively killing secession as a threat, thus encouraging the rise of our modern federal monolith.

62. Waging war on civilians by bombing, destruction of homes, and confiscation of food and farm equipment.

63. Tolerating an atmosphere which led to large numbers of rapes against Southern women, including slaves.

64. Using civilians as hostages.

65. Promoting a general because of his willingness to use his troops as cannon fodder.

66. The plundering of the South by Lincoln’s allies.

67. Supporting government subsidies of the railroads leading to corruption and inefficiency.

68. Supporting a nationalized paper currency which is inherently inflationary.

69. Creating the federal tax bureaucracy and various taxes that are still with us.

70. Establishing precedents for centralized powers and suppression of liberties that continue to be cited today.

71. Ending slavery by means that created turbulence that continues to this day instead of letting slavery run its natural economic course as it had everywhere else.

By Lincoln, you mean Abe?

[phill4paul]

I'll have to re-read my history text books, but I'll be damned if they never quite put the situation in that kinda light.;)


This "foreign" tyrant in question didn't do any of this, did he?

1. Saying contradictory things before different audiences.

2. Opposing racial equality.

3. Opposing giving blacks the right to vote, serve on juries or intermarry while allegedly supporting their natural rights.

4. Being a racist.

5. Supporting the legal rights of slaveholders.

6. Supporting Clay’s American System or mercantilism as his primary political agenda: national bank, high tariff, and internal improvements.

7. Supporting a political economy that encourages corruption and inefficiency.

8. Supporting a political economy that became the blueprint for modern American.

9. Being a wealthy railroad lawyer.

10. Never defending a runaway slave.

11. Defending a slaveholder against his runaway slave.

12. Favoring returning ex-slaves to Africa or sending them to Central America and Haiti.

13. Proposing to strengthen the Fugitive Slave law.

14. Opposing the extension of slavery in the territories so that "free white people" can settle there and because allowing them to become slave states would dilute Republican influence in Congress because of the three-fifths rule.

15. Opposing black citizenship in Illinois or their right to immigrate to that state.

16. Failing to use his legendary political skills to achieve peaceful emancipation as was accomplished elsewhere – Lincoln's war was the only "war of emancipation" in the 19th.

17. Nullifying emancipation of slaves in Missouri and Georgia early in the war.

18. Stating that his primary motive was saving the union and not ending slavery.

19. Supporting a conscription law.

20. Sending troops into New York City to quell draft riots related to his emancipation proclamation, resulting in 300 to 1,000 deaths.

21. Starting a war that took the lives of 620,000 soldiers and 50,000 civilians and caused incalculable economic loss.

22. Being an enemy of free market capitalism.

23. Being an economic illiterate and espousing the labor theory of value.

24. Supporting a disastrous public works project in Illinois and continuing to support the same policies oblivious of the consequences.

25. Conjuring up a specious and deceptive argument against the historically-recognized right of state secession.

26. Lying about re-supplying the fed’s tax collection office known as Fort Sumter.

27. Refusing to see peace commissioners from the Confederacy offering to pay for all federal property in the South.

28. Refusing to see Napoleon III of France who offered to mediate the dispute.

29. Provoking Virginia to secede by taking military action against the Deep South.

30. Supporting a tariff and other policies that systematically redistributed wealth from the South to the North, causing great consternation in the South.

31. Invading the South without consulting Congress.

32. Illegally declaring martial law.

33. Illegally blockading ports.

34. Illegally suspending habeas corpus.

35. Illegally imprisoning thousands of Northern citizens.

36. Tolerating their subjection to inhumane conditions in prison.

37. Systematically attacking Northern newspapers and their employees, including by imprisonment.

38. Deporting his chief political enemy in the North, Congressman Clement L. Vallandigham of Ohio.

39. Confiscating private property and firearms.

40. Ignoring the Ninth and Tenth Amendments.

41. Tolerating the arrest of ministers who refused to pray for Lincoln.

42. Arresting several duly elected members of the Maryland Legislature along with the mayor of Baltimore and Maryland Congressman Henry May.

43. Placing Kansas and Kentucky under martial law.

44. Supporting a law that indemnified public officials for unlawful acts.

45. Laying the groundwork for the establishment of conscription and income taxation as permanent institutions.

46. Interfering with and rigging elections in Maryland and elsewhere in the North.

47. Censoring all telegraph communication.

48. Preventing opposition newspapers from being delivered by the post office.

49. Illegally creating the state of West Virginia out of the "indestructible" state of Virginia.

50. Tolerating or supporting mistreatment of citizens in conquered territory.

51. Taxing those citizens without their consent.

52. Executing those who refused to take a loyalty oath.

53.Closing churches and arresting ministers.

54. Burning and plundering Southern cites.

55. Quartering troops in private homes unlawfully.

56. Creating an enormous political patronage system.

57. Allowing an unjust mass execution of Sioux Indians in Minnesota.

58. Engineering a constitutional revolution through military force which destroyed state sovereignty and replaced it with rule by the Supreme Court (and the United States Army).

59. Laying the groundwork for the imperialist and militarist campaigns of the future as well as the welfare/warfare state.

60. Creating the dangerous precedent of establishing a strong consolidated state out of a decentralized confederation.

61. Effectively killing secession as a threat, thus encouraging the rise of our modern federal monolith.

62. Waging war on civilians by bombing, destruction of homes, and confiscation of food and farm equipment.

63. Tolerating an atmosphere which led to large numbers of rapes against Southern women, including slaves.

64. Using civilians as hostages.

65. Promoting a general because of his willingness to use his troops as cannon fodder.

66. The plundering of the South by Lincoln’s allies.

67. Supporting government subsidies of the railroads leading to corruption and inefficiency.

68. Supporting a nationalized paper currency which is inherently inflationary.

69. Creating the federal tax bureaucracy and various taxes that are still with us.

70. Establishing precedents for centralized powers and suppression of liberties that continue to be cited today.

71. Ending slavery by means that created turbulence that continues to this day instead of letting slavery run its natural economic course as it had everywhere else.

By Lincoln, you mean Abe?

[Galileo Galilei]

You're fucked up lol.
Seriously laughing my ass off.

So you don't think Lincoln was a foreign tyrant? He violated the Constitution and started a war of aggression. He instituted a draft, an income tax, and violated habeas corpus. He tried to arrest the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.

[Galileo Galilei]

Kick 'em in the balls Dieseler!:D

Secession was a bad idea. The South got their asses kicked by Lincoln, Grant, and Sherman. These are people you do not want to f with. They are bad hombres. The South would been better off paying a few percentage points more in tariff rates.

James Buchanan, one of our greatest presidents, put it bluntly; the tariffs had already been repealed before secession. The South got the better deal in Dred Scott and all the compromises of the 1850s. There is not much you can do for idiots.

[Derek Johnson]

Secession was a bad idea. The South got their asses kicked by Lincoln, Grant, and Sherman. These are people you do not want to f with. They are bad hombres. The South would been better off paying a few percentage points more in tariff rates.

James Buchanan, one of our greatest presidents, put it bluntly; the tariffs had already been repealed before secession. The South got the better deal in Dred Scott and all the compromises of the 1850s. There is not much you can do for idiots.

Any luck with finding any shred of proof of your claim that

"Almost all of the Union soldiers from Wisconsin voluteered and opposed slavery and wanted it ended"

?

[Galileo Galilei]

This "foreign" tyrant in question didn't do any of this, did he?

1. Saying contradictory things before different audiences.

2. Opposing racial equality.

3. Opposing giving blacks the right to vote, serve on juries or intermarry while allegedly supporting their natural rights.

4. Being a racist.

5. Supporting the legal rights of slaveholders.

6. Supporting Clay’s American System or mercantilism as his primary political agenda: national bank, high tariff, and internal improvements.

7. Supporting a political economy that encourages corruption and inefficiency.

8. Supporting a political economy that became the blueprint for modern American.

9. Being a wealthy railroad lawyer.

10. Never defending a runaway slave.

11. Defending a slaveholder against his runaway slave.

12. Favoring returning ex-slaves to Africa or sending them to Central America and Haiti.

13. Proposing to strengthen the Fugitive Slave law.

14. Opposing the extension of slavery in the territories so that "free white people" can settle there and because allowing them to become slave states would dilute Republican influence in Congress because of the three-fifths rule.

15. Opposing black citizenship in Illinois or their right to immigrate to that state.

16. Failing to use his legendary political skills to achieve peaceful emancipation as was accomplished elsewhere – Lincoln's war was the only "war of emancipation" in the 19th.

17. Nullifying emancipation of slaves in Missouri and Georgia early in the war.

18. Stating that his primary motive was saving the union and not ending slavery.

19. Supporting a conscription law.

20. Sending troops into New York City to quell draft riots related to his emancipation proclamation, resulting in 300 to 1,000 deaths.

21. Starting a war that took the lives of 620,000 soldiers and 50,000 civilians and caused incalculable economic loss.

22. Being an enemy of free market capitalism.

23. Being an economic illiterate and espousing the labor theory of value.

24. Supporting a disastrous public works project in Illinois and continuing to support the same policies oblivious of the consequences.

25. Conjuring up a specious and deceptive argument against the historically-recognized right of state secession.

26. Lying about re-supplying the fed’s tax collection office known as Fort Sumter.

27. Refusing to see peace commissioners from the Confederacy offering to pay for all federal property in the South.

28. Refusing to see Napoleon III of France who offered to mediate the dispute.

29. Provoking Virginia to secede by taking military action against the Deep South.

30. Supporting a tariff and other policies that systematically redistributed wealth from the South to the North, causing great consternation in the South.

31. Invading the South without consulting Congress.

32. Illegally declaring martial law.

33. Illegally blockading ports.

34. Illegally suspending habeas corpus.

35. Illegally imprisoning thousands of Northern citizens.

36. Tolerating their subjection to inhumane conditions in prison.

37. Systematically attacking Northern newspapers and their employees, including by imprisonment.

38. Deporting his chief political enemy in the North, Congressman Clement L. Vallandigham of Ohio.

39. Confiscating private property and firearms.

40. Ignoring the Ninth and Tenth Amendments.

41. Tolerating the arrest of ministers who refused to pray for Lincoln.

42. Arresting several duly elected members of the Maryland Legislature along with the mayor of Baltimore and Maryland Congressman Henry May.

43. Placing Kansas and Kentucky under martial law.

44. Supporting a law that indemnified public officials for unlawful acts.

45. Laying the groundwork for the establishment of conscription and income taxation as permanent institutions.

46. Interfering with and rigging elections in Maryland and elsewhere in the North.

47. Censoring all telegraph communication.

48. Preventing opposition newspapers from being delivered by the post office.

49. Illegally creating the state of West Virginia out of the "indestructible" state of Virginia.

50. Tolerating or supporting mistreatment of citizens in conquered territory.

51. Taxing those citizens without their consent.

52. Executing those who refused to take a loyalty oath.

53.Closing churches and arresting ministers.

54. Burning and plundering Southern cites.

55. Quartering troops in private homes unlawfully.

56. Creating an enormous political patronage system.

57. Allowing an unjust mass execution of Sioux Indians in Minnesota.

58. Engineering a constitutional revolution through military force which destroyed state sovereignty and replaced it with rule by the Supreme Court (and the United States Army).

59. Laying the groundwork for the imperialist and militarist campaigns of the future as well as the welfare/warfare state.

60. Creating the dangerous precedent of establishing a strong consolidated state out of a decentralized confederation.

61. Effectively killing secession as a threat, thus encouraging the rise of our modern federal monolith.

62. Waging war on civilians by bombing, destruction of homes, and confiscation of food and farm equipment.

63. Tolerating an atmosphere which led to large numbers of rapes against Southern women, including slaves.

64. Using civilians as hostages.

65. Promoting a general because of his willingness to use his troops as cannon fodder.

66. The plundering of the South by Lincoln’s allies.

67. Supporting government subsidies of the railroads leading to corruption and inefficiency.

68. Supporting a nationalized paper currency which is inherently inflationary.

69. Creating the federal tax bureaucracy and various taxes that are still with us.

70. Establishing precedents for centralized powers and suppression of liberties that continue to be cited today.

71. Ending slavery by means that created turbulence that continues to this day instead of letting slavery run its natural economic course as it had everywhere else.

By Lincoln, you mean Abe?

Lee invaded a sovereign nation, the commonwealth of Pennsylvania, in an act of aggression. It was also stupid. He never should have done it without Stonewall Jackson. The South should have sued for peace after Jackson went down, that was it.

What the South really should have done was put Jackson in charge. They would have won the war.

[Derek Johnson]

Lee invaded a sovereign nation, the commonwealth of Pennsylvania, in an act of aggression. It was also stupid. He never should have done it without Stonewall Jackson. The South should have sued for peace after Jackson went down, that was it.

What the South really should have done was put Jackson in charge. They would have won the war.

Any luck with finding any shred of proof of your claim that

"Almost all of the Union soldiers from Wisconsin voluteered and opposed slavery and wanted it ended"

?

[Galileo Galilei]

Any luck with finding any shred of proof of your claim that

"Almost all of the Union soldiers from Wisconsin voluteered and opposed slavery and wanted it ended"

?

Any luck finding proof that almost all of the Union soldiers from Wisconsin volunteered because they wanted more tariffs?

:confused:

[Sic Semper Tyrannis]

It's Stonewall Jackson's birthday today!!!!!

[The Patriot]

It's Stonewall Jackson's birthday today!!!!!

make a separate thread, he deserves it.

[SimpleName]

bump for a great man.

I'd rather bump with for Jessica Simpson. But yes, a great man.

[Derek Johnson]

I'd rather bump with for Jessica Simpson. But yes, a great man.

* salutes *