Troublesome "facts" on Haiti

[Oyate]

Dec. 9, 1492 Native Taino people's are surprised by the arrival of one Christopher Columbus who claims the place for Spain. The process of extermination begins.

1517 Native Taino culture is gone. A remnant have intermarried into the population. Spaniards begin importing African slaves.

1697 France and Spain, who had been contesting for dominion in the area, decide to divide Haiti between them. By now, sugar, tobacco and indigo are major export crops. The agricultural techniques that make this possible is imported along with the slaves themselves. Due to brutal conditions, 33% of imported slaves die within one year of importation. By some accounts, survival rates went effectively to zero within 10 years.

1791 First organized slave revolts begin. France makes attempts to retake the island militarily, and this goes back and forth for a while during which time the USA plays both sides.

1804 Haitians declare independence in the French part of the island. A series of dictators starts whipping through, tons of murders, coups, numerous interests compete (commercial, agricultural, etc).

1825 France imposes massive reparations on Haiti under threat of military force. Many European nations refuse to recognize Haiti unless she does so. They fold and agree to pay in gold.

1842 Control of whole island is gained by republicans on the French side. Business interests from the USA and Europe move back in en masse.

1888 U.S. Marines invade to support another coup. This begins the cycle of USA interventions to support USA business interests.

1910 National City Bank of New York (now Citibank) buys the Banque National d'Haïti (it's treasury) they basically own the farm and the now-familiar cycle of debt enslavement practiced by the IMF, WMF and World Bank begins.

1914, British, German and United States forces invade, further control the situation and local rulers. By 1915 it's clear the USA has a permanent military occupation going. The USA effort is ordered by none other than our old buddy President Woodrow Wilson. In no time they have 40% of Haitian GDP going to service their debts. These USA interests maintained direct control of the Haitian economy until

1947 during which intervening period, the USA has helped to destroy any and all opposition to it's selected rulers. A practice they continued.....well, the practice continues to this day but......this begins the great brain flight. To the present day, educated Haitians leave Haiti leaving foreign business interests and impoverished peasants behind.

1957 begins the Duvalier period which eliminates all protective tarriffs (neoliberal economic reforms). The elimination of Haitian agriculture begins, but at this time, Haiti is 100% self sufficient in food production as it has been since time immemorial when the Tainos roamed. Land reforms begin forcing subsistence agriculturalists into cities.

1970 Finishing touches are put on the destruction of dommestic agriculture. Haiti is now 80% dependent on imports for basic food stuffs and textile raw materials. Almost all agricultural regions are subverted to producing export crops by expats and multinationals. "Baby Doc" Duvalier begins looting hundreds of millions from public coffers while continuing to make payments to (now) globalied banksters.

1986 Popular uprising forces Ronnie Reagan to save Baby Doc from his own people. CIA does it's usual thing, keeping popularly supported Jean Bertrand Aristide from assuming power. USA imposes new friendly puppets. Aristide occastionally gains control but he gains no real traction.

2000 Aristide re-elected by popular vote.

2004 Aristide deposed in yet another CIA backed coup. U.N. leads a "stabilization mission". They are still there (latest military occupiers).

They supposedly have something close to an elected president today although I heard he was camped out at the airport.

"Haiti", 1492-present day being robbed and raped by foreign powers.

[Dunedain]

Troublesome Fact About Haiti #234: Their neighbors are doing great...

The people on the other side of the island (Dominican Repub.ic) are doing fine. They aren't feeding their children cookies made out of mud and sniffing fermented feces. Their economy grows from more than simply kidnapping people. They don't have slavery like in Haiti.

hmmmm...What are the Domincans doing right that the Haitians aren't?

[Oyate]

Yet the people on the other side of the island (Dominican Repub.ic) are doing fine. They aren't feeding their children cookies made out of mud and sniffing fermented feces.

What are they doing right that the Haitians aren't?

Keeping out the CIA and the banksters?

[Dunedain]

Keeping out the CIA and the banksters?

Very far fetched. The CIA and banksters are preventing Haitians from planting rice and raising chickens? How?

Why isn't the CIA preventing Dominicans from growing their own food? Very odd indeed. Almost like your theory is total B.S.

[Dunedain]

Troublesome Fact About Haiti: #2343 - They don't grow their own food.

Haitians have the most fertile soil of all the Carribean islands. Too bad the CIA is preventing them from creating a vegetable garden out here:

http://www.thejuliaproject.com/images/haiti-mountains.jpg

[Greenly]

The CIA are always trying to keep the Hatians down whats next are you one of those nuts that goes on about HAARP.
:rolleyes:
YouTube - HAARP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnRPZOUVhJ4)

[Dunedain]

Troublesome Fact About Haiti: #402 - Instead of growing food they make dirt-pies

One thing the CIA and the banksters will allow Haitians: Their Dirty-Pies. They are literally pies made out of the mud. Veggie gardens are a no-no in this tropical region (per the banksters and the CIA) but Mud-Pie outlays are totally fine.

http://www.billcasselman.com/mud_pies.jpg

[Oyate]

I know, next thing I'll be telling you is that our fiat currency system is profiting wealthy bankers! And then it will be some wild story about how our own foreign policy creates blowback! OMG this whole place is just full of us looney tunes! It's almost like we support Ron Paul or something!

I think you better run and tell Limbaugh what's going on here!

[Dunedain]

Next troublesome fact?

Child slavery. Haitians are not responsible for all the institutional child slavery that goes on in Haiti. It's the white mans fault....witness the devastating logic.

[Mini-Me]

Next troublesome fact?

Child slavery. Haitians are not responsible for all the institutional child slavery that goes on in Haiti. It's the white mans fault....witness the devastating logic.

Who ever said it's "the white man's" fault? Oyate is arguing that it is the fault of governments, not a particular race. Not EVERYTHING is about race, you know. ;)

[Dunedain]

Next troublesome fact about Haiti? Voodoo. The CIA and banksters surely are behind this.

YouTube - Possession of Erzulie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6C33ebhjzuY)

[MN Patriot]

Troublesome Fact About Haiti #234: Their neighbors are doing great...

The people on the other side of the island (Dominican Repub.ic) are doing fine. They aren't feeding their children cookies made out of mud and sniffing fermented feces. Their economy grows from more than simply kidnapping people. They don't have slavery like in Haiti.

hmmmm...What are the Domincans doing right that the Haitians aren't?

From Wikipedia:


After three centuries of Spanish rule, with French and Haitian interludes, the country became independent in 1821 but was quickly taken over by Haiti. It regained independence in 1844, but mostly suffered political turmoil and tyranny, and as well a brief return to Spanish rule, over the next 72 years. United States occupation 1916–24 and a subsequent, calm six-year period under Horacio Vásquez Lajara were followed by the military dictatorship of Rafael Leonidas Trujillo Molina to 1961. The last civil war, in 1965, was ended by U.S. intervention, and was followed by the authoritarian rule of Joaquin Balaguer, 1966–1978. Since 1978, the Dominican Republic has moved toward representative democracy, and has been led by Leonel Fernández most of the period since 1996.

The Dominican Republic has also adopted a liberal economic model, which has made it the second largest economy in the region. Though long known for sugar production, the economy is now dominated by services. The country's economic progress is exemplified by its advanced telecommunication system. Nevertheless, unemployment, government corruption, and inconsistent electric service remain major Dominican problems. The country also suffers from "marked income inequality" and had a Gini coefficient for income distribution of 49.9 in 2005.

Things aren't that great in The DR either, but better than Haiti. They share similar and overlapping histories.

Their liberal economic model has probably saved them from the fate of Haiti.
Watch and see what the earthquake crisis does to them.

[Dunedain]

Their liberal economic model has probably saved them from the fate of Haiti.

And planting food crops (like sugar) helps also.

[Met Income]

And planting food crops (like sugar) helps also.

Right -- which happens more with freedom than government.

[MN Patriot]

Humans are programmed when young to believe and think what the people in their lives and their culture teach them. Grow up in a poor and ignorant society, you will probably be poor and ignorant. Grow up in a wealthy and educated society, you will probably be wealthy and educated.

The big challenge is how to help dysfunctional cultures advance beyond their pitiful circumstances. Sadly, the people most likely to want to help them infect them with the ideology of socialism, which isn't hard to do since socialism (collectivism, or whatever you want to call it), is based on envy and resentment. Socialism only perpetuates misery.

[Dunedain]

Grow up in a poor and ignorant society, you will probably be poor and ignorant. Grow up in a wealthy and educated society, you will probably be wealthy and educated.


I'd agree with this. Ignorance has being proven to have a powerful genetic component by identical twin testing. We've all heard about the twins that grew up in different environments yet were remarkably alike. That's the power of DNA.



The big challenge is how to help dysfunctional cultures advance beyond their pitiful circumstances. Sadly, the people most likely to want to help them infect them with the ideology of socialism, which isn't hard to do since socialism (collectivism, or whatever you want to call it), is based on envy and resentment. Socialism only perpetuates misery.

I would say it's impossible to advance a whole nation of people. Make them worse off there are reams of historical examples of this.

[Oyate]

Socialism only perpetuates misery.

Tragically, we do in fact see a pattern with cultures/nations/societies that are former victims of colonization. The severity of their dysfunctionality and the time it takes them to recover is largely a factor of how long the colonization/enslavement lasts. We see this in Asia, the Americas, Africa, the mid East and many other places.

And it does seem that socialism lately finds a receptive audience in many of these places. These days that is. You know cause like.....socialism didn't exist all that long ago. And nobody called what happened to the colonized "capitalism". First of all, the whole thing took place in the context of a feudal political paradigm so would you call the colonization and enslavement of whole populations capitalism or feudalism?

Given Haiti's history right up to the present day, would you call it capitalism? Would you call it a republic? A democracy?

[dgr]

If four billion over 5 years didn't even get them a trash collection system, what did it pay for.

[Oyate]

If four billion over 5 years didn't even get them a trash collection system, what did it pay for.

Gee, maybe research will give you your answer.

[MelissaWV]

Haiti has a problem with topsoil erosion. A huge problem, in fact, which results largely from the knocking down of almost every tree on their side of the island. Having fertile soil means nothing at all when the first tropical wave (let alone depression, storm, or hurricane) will cause flooding, mudslides, and ruin the crop. The Government there has been a massive mess for years, CIA or no, and yes it does in fact have a huge impact on the island's development.

With people so impoverished, the few trees that are part of a reforestation program are promptly chopped down for food, wood, etc., even in "no cutting" zones. There are a number of organizations that take part in reforestation projects like that, only to see the trees vanish. I have a hunch the Government takes their fair share, too.

The "neighborhood" will be greatly impacted by the refugee situation now underway. Haitians are not being deported back to Haiti at the moment. This is a green light for Haitians to try to get to a "better place" and mingle until they can then sneak to the next best country. There are shanties that pop up along mountainsides on other islands, too, and it's largely the Haitians that do it. Areas of Puerto Rico, in particular, look like that until the first good storm sweeps through the tropics and makes rubble out of them. The impoverished squatters just wait a bit, then repopulate the abandoned sugarcane fields or mountainsides again, hoping to have a child there that'll be an American citizen at birth who can then fly to the continental US and so on. There's only going to be more of this in the years to come.

[Dustancostine]

Another difference between the way Haiti and DR developed was in their Dictators.

Papa Doc was a little crazy and just looted the place.

Trujillo and Baliguer, while ruthless dictators, actually did have a since of patriotism and installed discipline and education into the island. Also Baliguer made laws that severely limited deforestation and promoted cooking with gas instead of wood.

If you see and arial photo of Hispaniola, you will see massive deforestation on the Hatian side which is wiping out agriculture.

http://www.earthsangha.org/images/displays/hmap.jpg

[prophet]

Who ever said it's "the white man's" fault? Oyate is arguing that it is the fault of governments, not a particular race. Not EVERYTHING is about race, you know. ;)True. but some things are about race. The great Jewish Prime Minister of England said, in his book, Tancred: "All is race - there is no other truth" (page 106)

In Endymion, he said: No man will treat with indifference the principle of race. It is the key to history and why history is so often confused is that it has been written by men who were ignorant of this principle and all the knowledge it involves . . . Language and religion do not make a race - there is only one thing which makes a race, and that is blood." (page 249-250)

Disraeli was a little on the extreme side, I admit, but I cite him to show that Dunedain is not as radical as some seem to think.

[Oyate]

but some things are about race.

And that would include earthquakes right? The earthquake hit Haiti because of race right?

Or is this incident simply an opportunity for persons like yourself to present your racial ideas and attempt to drive a wedge in our community?

Hey I got an idea: you dislike Haitians so much, don't donate to them. If others choose to of their own free will, let them. It's really none of your business what people choose to do with their property.

You are a prophet without honour in this land.

[Natalie]

Troublesome Fact About Haiti #234: Their neighbors are doing great...

The people on the other side of the island (Dominican Repub.ic) are doing fine. They aren't feeding their children cookies made out of mud and sniffing fermented feces. Their economy grows from more than simply kidnapping people. They don't have slavery like in Haiti.

hmmmm...What are the Domincans doing right that the Haitians aren't?

I don't know what you're talking about, but I don't think Dominican Republic is doing great. My mom is an immigrant from Dominican Republic and her whole family still lives down there. Most people there are really poor. Not like poor in America where you still have an apartment and TV. I mean like they live in tiny shacks with dirt floors. We had to stay at my grandma's house and it was horrible. She doesn't always have running water, and she has to collect rain water. She only has electricity about half the time, and forget about air conditioning. It was so unbelievably hot, I couldn't sleep. Plus the idiot neighbors were playing really loud Dominican music until the wee hours of the morning and when they finally turned it off, the chickens started crowing. I started crying because I was so miserable, and I only had to be there for a few days! I'm so grateful I live here.

[Nate]

Who ever said it's "the white man's" fault? Oyate is arguing that it is the fault of governments, not a particular race. Not EVERYTHING is about race, you know. ;)

It is to him. Just look at his post history. Race is central to his world view. In this very same thread he says that ignorance is in the DNA. The people of Haiti are not poor & ignorant because of the constant intervention & economic exploitation from one foreign power after another for 500 years, it's because they are genetically inferior. Polylogist collectivism at it's finest attempting to masquerade as a "freedom lover".

[Dunedain]

I don't know what you're talking about, but I don't think Dominican Republic is doing great. My mom is an immigrant from Dominican Republic and her whole family still lives down there. Most people there are really poor. Not like poor in America where you still have an apartment and TV. I mean like they live in tiny shacks with dirt floors. We had to stay at my grandma's house and it was horrible. She doesn't always have running water, and she has to collect rain water. She only has electricity about half the time, and forget about air conditioning. It was so unbelievably hot, I couldn't sleep. Plus the idiot neighbors were playing really loud Dominican music until the wee hours of the morning and when they finally turned it off, the chickens started crowing. I started crying because I was so miserable, and I only had to be there for a few days! I'm so grateful I live here.

But your Mom never had to eat dirty-cookies...right? Like many in Haiti do? They eat mud there...did you know that? Compare that to playing loud music and not having electricity SOME of the time.

Everything is relative. yes, DR is not as prosperous as we are but they have 3 times the national GDP of Haiti. DR is a paradise compared to Haiti.

[SelfTaught]

I started crying

That's hot!

[MelissaWV]

Why were the chickens crowing...


I still have no idea what all the insinuating about the DR is even supposed to be about. They're different countries. They've had different policies throughout their history. What the hell the whole rest of it (they have voodoo there! zomgz!) is supposed to be about, I have no idea.

[Natalie]

Why were the chickens crowing...




I think they were chickens, maybe they were roosters, I don't know. They were doing that "cock-a-doodle-doo" thing all morning. And on top of that I was basically eaten alive by mosquitoes. You have to sleep with this mosquito tent thing over your bed, which apparently doesn't even keep them all out. Worst sleep I ever got was in Dominican.

[Danke]

Kinda related.

YouTube - Esoteric Agenda Part 10 Of 13 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFVh6GDVzfc&feature=related)

[MelissaWV]

I think they were chickens, maybe they were roosters, I don't know. They were doing that "cock-a-doodle-doo" thing all morning. And on top of that I was basically eaten alive by mosquitoes. You have to sleep with this mosquito tent thing over your bed, which apparently doesn't even keep them all out. Worst sleep I ever got was in Dominican.

Oh trust me. I'm familiar with the blood-suckers :( I don't think they like "dark meat" as much for some reason. My sister used to get bitten a lot more often than I did, and I got bitten a lot more when I first got there. Once I got a dark tan going, they seemed to leave me alone? Entirely anecdotal, of course. Beyond the bugs there's also the humidity in many parts of the Caribbean. If there's no breeze... you are absolutely screwed.

That may be the "bright point" in this entire tragedy... this did not happen at the height of summer. There is no tropical storm or hurricane or even a strong tropical wave coming their way offering wind and rain and storm surge. There is a little less heat and less humidity. They have time, if the aid organizations are smart about this, to erect strong no-frills shelter areas that could withstand basic storms and that offer some comfort to refugees as the months begin to turn hotter. This would have been way worse if it'd happened six months from now.

[Oyate]

It is to him. Just look at his post history. Race is central to his world view. In this very same thread he says that ignorance is in the DNA. The people of Haiti are not poor & ignorant because of the constant intervention & economic exploitation from one foreign power after another for 500 years, it's because they are genetically inferior. Polylogist collectivism at it's finest attempting to masquerade as a "freedom lover".

Genetically inferior he says.

OK. See this trend people? See this reinforcement from new posters? See what us elders see here?

Genetically inferior. Hi Nate, I'm genetically inferior. I been in the freedom movement for about 30 years give or take. I had a wife. She's "genetically inferior" in your parlance I guess. We have kids. Full members of Chippewa tribe. I guess they are "genetically inferior" to you too.

Nate, bra, I would highly recommend you not come to Arizona. Not even on a dare. Too many of us "genetically inferior" patriots here for your taste. This is the land of "Black Man With Gun". His name is Chris. He's very popular here.

Yeah, don't come to Arizona, you wouldn't like it. Our art, our architecture, our food, our language, our neighbors speak of a culture that is thousands of years old, not just the couple of hundred of USA import. See, we've been doing how we do since before "we" even showed up.

The hell you know. Just keep yourself to your cities with your crazy ideas, we have towns and communities and neighbourhoods to run here.

And until further notice, until your attitude improves, none of our daughters are gonna baby sit your kids so don't even ask.

[Oyate]

Now don't be surprised, people, when this new little cadre of Pentabloggers zeroes in on me. They will probably go to work trying to isolate and discredit me now.

That should really work well because......wells, I only got one rep to waste and it might as well be me, for the record I stand by everything I've ever said but if push come to shove, Oyate is a shared name-space, there's like 20 of us running around the various social networks like the predecessor personas. Big deal. The fuck if I care.

Our people are not just white. We are all people, we are Oyate. All of the people, for we hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal and endowed with certain rights and among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

If you hold not this value dear, you are a revisionist. You are one who seeks to divert us from this path. In other words, this would hold you several from us. Which means you have no company here and no good purpose among us.

Is this clear to you?

[Mini-Me]

Genetically inferior he says.

OK. See this trend people? See this reinforcement from new posters? See what us elders see here?

Genetically inferior. Hi Nate, I'm genetically inferior. I been in the freedom movement for about 30 years give or take. I had a wife. She's "genetically inferior" in your parlance I guess. We have kids. Full members of Chippewa tribe. I guess they are "genetically inferior" to you too.

Nate, bra, I would highly recommend you not come to Arizona. Not even on a dare. Too many of us "genetically inferior" patriots here for your taste. This is the land of "Black Man With Gun". His name is Chris. He's very popular here.

Yeah, don't come to Arizona, you wouldn't like it. Our art, our architecture, our food, our language, our neighbors speak of a culture that is thousands of years old, not just the couple of hundred of USA import. See, we've been doing how we do since before "we" even showed up.

The hell you know. Just keep yourself to your cities with your crazy ideas, we have towns and communities and neighbourhoods to run here.

And until further notice, until your attitude improves, none of our daughters are gonna baby sit your kids so don't even ask.

LOL. Oyate, Nate is on your side! Reread his post. :p

[Nate]

LOL. Oyate, Nate is on your side! Reread his post. :p

Thanx Mini-Me.

No racist here Oyate. I only have 1 "white" friend. Grew up around nothing but these "genetically inferior" Puerto-Ricans, Mexicans & "black" people. A racist wouldn't last 1 day in my neighborhood.

[Dieseler]

So, who's next?

[sluggo]

nvm

[Mini-Me]

So, who's next?

Heh...that reminded me of:
YouTube - Troy - "Is there no one else?" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP74aJBbIoY)
"IS THERE NO ONE ELSE?!?"

That said, max is still around.

[libertyjam]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/cb_haiti_waiting_to_die

While people here bloviate about inconsequential this and that, people are actually dying while you read and post. How about contributing aid first and argue about long term solutions later?

[Dieseler]

Nevermind.

[Mini-Me]

Nevermind.

I was trying to figure out what you meant, too...:p

[MelissaWV]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/cb_haiti_waiting_to_die

While people here bloviate about inconsequential this and that, people are actually dying while you read and post. How about contributing aid first and argue about long term solutions later?

How about doing both? Astounding that you're on post number five... it's almost like you were designed to stir stuff :rolleyes:

You have no idea who has or has not contributed time, money, talent, or supplies to the relief effort. None.