What Haiti Needs

[FrankRep]

Haiti is receiving aid from all over the world following Tuesday's devastating earthquake , but one of the contributing factors to Haiti's devastation, however, was the poor construction of its buildings and poor infrastructure generally because the Haitians rely on handouts. by Steven Yates


What Haiti Needs (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/world-mainmenu-26/north-america-mainmenu-36/2762-what-haiti-needs)


Steven Yates | The New American (http://www.thenewamerican.com/)
Friday, 15 January 2010


Haiti has long been one of the poorest countries in the Western hemisphere. Even though it was the first Latin American nation to gain independence — through a slave rebellion — Haitian history has been marked by invasions and occupations to bring down one corrupt regime after another.

Tuesday’s powerful earthquake (measuring over 7.0 on the Richter scale) left much of the country in ruins. Port-au-Prince, Haiti's capitol, very near the quake’s epicenter, was virtually destroyed. The second floor of the presidential palace collapsed onto the first floor. The Haitian Parliament Building and the National Cathedral, among other places of worship, were demolished. A major hospital collapsed (http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/01/12/world/AP-CB-Haiti-Earthquake.html?_r=1). The World Bank reported that its Haitian offices had been destroyed.

The nation’s infrastructure, which has never been in particularly good shape, is virtually gone. Estimated death tolls range from between 40,000 to 50,000, according to the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8460417.stm), to as much as 100,000, according to the Pan American Health Organization (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/15/AR2010011501857.html). Communications difficulties make it hard to arrive at a precise figure. The International Red Cross estimates (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/01/13/world/main6090601.shtml?tag=cbsnewsSectionContent.4) that about three million people have been affected by the quake. What we know is that thousands of survivors are without basic necessities such as food and clean water. Damage to the nation’s main seaport and one-runway airport has made it difficult to airlift in relief, meaning that for many Haitians, help will arrive too late. Survivors will doubtless face outbreaks of diseases (http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/01/13/haiti.earthquake.medical.risks/index.html?hpt=Sbin) such as malaria, common in tropical regions with warm, wet climates. Making things worse will be the gangs and looters who come out of the woodwork to exploit tragedies such as this.

George Mason University economist Tyler Cowen speculates that this earthquake has destroyed the country. In his blog Marginal Revolution (http://www.marginalrevolution.com/) he asks: “In what sense does Haiti still have a government? How bad will it have to get before the U.N. or U.S. moves in and simply governs the place? How long will this governance last? What will happen to Haiti as a route for the drug trade, the dominant development in the country's economy over the last fifteen years? What does the new structure of interest groups look like, say five years from now? Is there any scenario in which the survivors, twenty years from now, are better off, compared to the quake never having taken place?”

Actually, there is. As we noted, Haiti gained independence through a slave rebellion. Historians of the region count this as a milestone in the history of peoples of color. Unfortunately, though, the model of governance chosen in the country has followed the collectivism of the French Revolution instead of the individualism that would transform the English-speaking world. Thus Haiti’s vulnerability to exploitation by corrupt and ruthless tyrants such as the Duvaliers. One of the terrible ironies of a country born in a revolt against slavery is that some 225,000 of its children now subsist in slavery (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2009-12-22-haiti-slavery_N.htm) due to extreme poverty.

The lesson is an important one: Haiti has remained poor because its people never discovered any philosophy of freedom. One of the reasons the earthquake proved so devastating was the poor construction of many of its buildings (http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/01/13/haiti.construction/index.html?iref=allsearch). Societies that do not discover freedom, simply never develop an infrastructure capable of withstanding assaults from nature of this magnitude. They never release the natural creativity and enterprise that alone builds strength — whether that strength be found in strong families or resilient buildings or stable infrastructure. Most therefore remain at a subsistence level.

What Haiti needs — in the long run — is to discover this philosophy. Obviously, given present desperate circumstances, that can’t be a priority. People who don’t know where their next meal is coming from cannot be expected to sit around and debate political traditions. Numerous groups are doing what they can to ensure that the number of casualties can be minimized. The millions of dollars in donations to organizations such as the Red Cross from Americans—some possibly struggling with economic woes of their own—demonstrates our inherent generosity.

But Haiti won’t ever prosper from its people simply being given things. Fortunately, the situation in that country will gradually stabilize during the days and weeks ahead. Haitians, having received aid from all over the world, will begin to rebuild. Then, they will have a decision to make. Do they continue as they have in the past? If the continue on unchanged, they will remain poor and possibly dependent on others, and at some point in the future, either another earthquake or some other disaster such as a hurricane will again devastate their population.

Or can a devastated population cease looking with awe — at best — and resentment — at worst — at the fruits of the civilization that saved as many of them as it could? Can members of this population reject political arrangements that have never worked because they only encourage force and end with brutality? Can they embrace the idea of the freedom of the individual, which alone will unleash the creativity and enterprise that will build a new Haiti capable again of standing on its own?

Haitians will need to have this conversation themselves. We can help, but we neither can nor should try to direct it for them. No one, after all, can force a people to embrace freedom.

What will happen over the long run, only time will tell. It should be clear, though, that if Haiti had already been enjoying the economic blessings of liberty when the earthquake struck, the latter’s effects would not have been as devastating. Buildings would have been better constructed, and not as many would have collapsed. The country would have had more resources on hand to respond to the emergency and save more lives.

In the meantime, the Haitian earthquake offers important lessons for us. Americans have largely forgotten the philosophical framework and public mindset that built the capacity to respond to a nation in need. Our schools no longer teach the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution, much less the freedom philosophy that went into their authorship. Our recent history is a history of lurches leftward, into greater degrees of collectivism. It is fair to say that at least some of our present technological prowess has resulted from a kind of forward momentum in a civilization that once embraced individual freedom and still displays many of its fruits. Many Americans now demand entitlements (healthcare, etc.), but could no more explain what actually produces the wealth that satisfies these demands than could the average Haitian.

Hurricane Katrina, which devastated New Orleans back in 2005, should have shown our vulnerabilities. Whether peoples and cultures embrace individual freedoms and the responsibilities that come with them, or whether they fall into collectivism (or never climbed out of it in the first place), determines whether they rise or stagnate. Both history and the events of this past week show clearly that the collectivism that has dominated the Haitian outlook is a path only to slavery and brutality, and when disaster strikes, to destruction. This is the real tragedy of a country that once gained independence through a slave rebellion.


SOURCE:
http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/world-mainmenu-26/north-america-mainmenu-36/2762-what-haiti-needs

[Dunedain]

Haiti needs nothing. There is nothing wrong with Haiti. Why do people think Haiti should be something other than it is?

[FrankRep]

Haiti needs nothing. There is nothing wrong with Haiti. Why do people think Haiti should be something other than it is?


Haiti is receiving aid from all over the world following Tuesday's devastating earthquake , but one of the contributing factors to Haiti's devastation, however, was the poor construction of its buildings and poor infrastructure generally because the Haitians rely on handouts. by Steven Yates

[Dunedain]

Haiti is receiving aid from all over the world following Tuesday's devastating earthquake , but one of the contributing factors to Haiti's devastation, however, was the poor construction of its buildings and poor infrastructure generally because the Haitians rely on handouts. by Steven Yates

But you aren't going to change them by NOT giving them handouts. You are not going to change them by GIVING them handouts. They can't be changed. They will be the same no matter what you do. You can let them be or wipe them out. There is no changing this nation of people.

We think in all of our pride that if we could just give them liberty they would be different. The commies think if we just give them food they will be fine. The christians think if we just give them Jesus they'll be fine.

[Kludge]

You can let them be or wipe them out. There is no changing a nation of people.

oh-oh... That's some dangerous thinking right thurrr.....

[Dunedain]

oh-oh... That's some dangerous thinking right thurrr.....

thinking is very dangerous yes, very dangerous.

You can't "change" whole civilizations of people. You can leave them be or wipe them out. Anything else is just a waste of your time. If anyone has any ideas how Haiti can be changed I will happily explain why it won't be successful. Mind our own business...that's the best way to handle this.

[madengr]

How about birth control.

[Dunedain]

How about birth control.

Natural selection favors those dumb enough to forget to take their birth control. I heard that somewhere.

As obvious as the suggestion is, this hasn't worked in Africa. Birth control is very expensive, difficult to manufacture, and (let's face it) more profitable to sell to other people if you are starving.

[jmdrake]

thinking is very dangerous yes, very dangerous.

You can't "change" whole civilizations of people. You can leave them be or wipe them out. Anything else is just a waste of your time. If anyone has any ideas how Haiti can be changed I will happily explain why it won't be successful. Mind our own business...that's the best way to handle this.

The way to change whole civilizations is person to person one at a time. I personally know people from Haiti and they are all hardworking and well educated. There's nothing intrinsic in the genepool or even the overall culture that prevents success. But they've been ruled by cleptocracy for decades. I really wish you'd take time to learn the whole history. There's so much you clearly don't know.

[Met Income]

The way to change whole civilizations is person to person one at a time. I personally know people from Haiti and they are all hardworking and well educated. There's nothing intrinsic in the genepool or even the overall culture that prevents success. But they've been ruled by cleptocracy for decades. I really wish you'd take time to learn the whole history. There's so much you clearly don't know.

Right. What is a Haitian? It's just a human born in an awful situation (because freedom was shunned). We're not better or worse than Haitians because we happened to be born somewhere else.

[Dunedain]

Right. What is a Haitian? It's just a human born in an awful situation (because freedom was shunned). We're not better or worse than Haitians because we happened to be born somewhere else.

you are such a child. I don't even know how to respond to your nonsensical posts.

[FrankRep]

Right. What is a Haitian? It's just a human born in an awful situation (because freedom was shunned). We're not better or worse than Haitians because we happened to be born somewhere else.


The lesson is an important one: Haiti has remained poor because its people never discovered any philosophy of freedom. One of the reasons the earthquake proved so devastating was the poor construction of many of its buildings. Societies that do not discover freedom, simply never develop an infrastructure capable of withstanding assaults from nature of this magnitude. They never release the natural creativity and enterprise that alone builds strength — whether that strength be found in strong families or resilient buildings or stable infrastructure. Most therefore remain at a subsistence level.
...

But Haiti won’t ever prosper from its people simply being given things. Fortunately, the situation in that country will gradually stabilize during the days and weeks ahead. Haitians, having received aid from all over the world, will begin to rebuild. Then, they will have a decision to make. Do they continue as they have in the past? If the continue on unchanged, they will remain poor and possibly dependent on others, and at some point in the future, either another earthquake or some other disaster such as a hurricane will again devastate their population.



These paragraphs explain it well.

[Met Income]

you are such a child. I don't even know how to respond to your nonsensical posts.

I'm a child and yet your only response is an ad-hom. I love irony. :)

[Dunedain]

The lesson is an important one: Haiti has remained poor because its people never discovered any philosophy of freedom. One of the reasons the earthquake proved so devastating was the poor construction of many of its buildings. Societies that do not discover freedom, simply never develop an infrastructure capable of withstanding assaults from nature of this magnitude. They never release the natural creativity and enterprise that alone builds strength — whether that strength be found in strong families or resilient buildings or stable infrastructure. Most therefore remain at a subsistence level.
...

But Haiti won’t ever prosper from its people simply being given things. Fortunately, the situation in that country will gradually stabilize during the days and weeks ahead. Haitians, having received aid from all over the world, will begin to rebuild. Then, they will have a decision to make. Do they continue as they have in the past? If the continue on unchanged, they will remain poor and possibly dependent on others, and at some point in the future, either another earthquake or some other disaster such as a hurricane will again devastate their population.



These paragraphs explain it well.


Yes, the Haitians have not discovered freedom....or anything else for that matter. They have not discovered how to build a civilization a transit system, proper santiation, or how to build proper housing (hence the death from the earthquake), or anything else. They have discovered genocide and how to block U.N. aid workers with dead corpses.

Its the harsh truth you won't hear while you are glued to your T.V. set.

[sofia]

Liberia is an African nation founded upon liberty principles by educated and freed American slaves. They even named the capital after President James Monroe (Monrovia)...and emulated the US system as their model.

It didnt take long to turn into a shithole which it remains to this day.

Dunedain is right. Lets stop pretending that all Haiti needs is a Haitian Ron Paul to fix its problems.

[Dianne]

I believe what Haiti needs is Obama... so let's hope he goes over there and stays !!

[jmdrake]

Liberia is an African nation founded upon liberty principles by educated and freed American slaves. They even named the capital after President James Monroe (Monrovia)...and emulated the US system as their model.

It didnt take long to turn into a shithole which it remains to this day.

Dunedain is right. Lets stop pretending that all Haiti needs is a Haitian Ron Paul to fix its problems.

:rolleyes: And yet the much of the Carribean has had higher GDP growth then the U.S. Go figure.

http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Caribbean/Bahamas/gdp-per-capita-growth-5-years

[Dunedain]

:rolleyes: And yet the much of the Carribean has had higher GDP growth then the U.S. Go figure.

http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Caribbean/Bahamas/gdp-per-capita-growth-5-years

Lots of wealthy white retirees are swarming into the Caribbean.

[sofia]

:rolleyes: And yet the much of the Carribean has had higher GDP growth then the U.S. Go figure.

http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Caribbean/Bahamas/gdp-per-capita-growth-5-years

its from european and american tourists and investors pumping money in. ....

[Oyate]

Liberia is an African nation founded upon liberty principles by educated and freed American slaves. They even named the capital after President James Monroe (Monrovia)...and emulated the US system as their model.

It didnt take long to turn into a shithole which it remains to this day.

Dunedain is right. Lets stop pretending that all Haiti needs is a Haitian Ron Paul to fix its problems.

You must be right. Every place with black people sucks while every place with white people rocks. There's no explanation for it, it's just the way it is. Brilliant.

[Mini-Me]

Liberia is an African nation founded upon liberty principles by educated and freed American slaves. They even named the capital after President James Monroe (Monrovia)...and emulated the US system as their model.

It didnt take long to turn into a shithole which it remains to this day.

Dunedain is right. Lets stop pretending that all Haiti needs is a Haitian Ron Paul to fix its problems.

What does it need, max? Does it need everyone to scrub the black off their skin? :rolleyes:

[Kludge]

You must be right. Every place with black people sucks while every place with white people rocks. There's no explanation for it, it's just the way it is. Brilliant.

But see, you're not seeing what they want the argument to be.

It isn't whether whites are better, it's WHY.

[Dunedain]

Every place with black people sucks while every place with white people rocks. There's no explanation for it, it's just the way it is. Brilliant.

You keep coming to these interesting conclusions all on your own.

What's the explaination then? White people are evil racists and always try to keep blacks down?

I doubt you are even interested in finding an objective answer.

[sofia]

What does it need, max? Does it need everyone to scrub the black off their skin? :rolleyes:

benevolent colonialism.....

[Mini-Me]

benevolent colonialism.....

The white man's burden, right? :rolleyes:

[Dunedain]

benevolent colonialism.....

That might be beneficial to Haiti but I pity the country that has to feed and cloth and dress people that can't do it themselves.

[FrankRep]

What does it need, max? Does it need everyone to scrub the black off their skin? :rolleyes:

I'm guessing they are Stormfront members. The same ones promoting Derek Black (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=225777), the White Nationalist/Racist.

[Met Income]

That might be beneficial to Haiti but I pity the country that has to feed and cloth and dress people that can't do it themselves.

It's a shame they used to be enslaved, who knows how they could have ended up. They are no different than us. Humans are humans.

[Dunedain]

They are no different than us. Humans are humans.

That's like saying dogs are dogs. It's bullshit. Humans are extremely varied.

I've travelled far and wide and lived all over the world. I can tell you that humans are very different from one another, both individually and ethnically.

[Dunedain]

It's a shame they used to be enslaved, who knows how they could have ended up.

Like any other African nation most likely.

[Met Income]

That's like saying dogs are dogs. It's bullshit. Humans are extremely varied.

I've travelled far and wide and lived all over the world. I can tell you that humans are very different from one another, both individually and ethnically.

Right, people who are enslaved by tyrants are worse off than people who live with more freedom. Humans are humans and if Haitians were born here, they'd be similar to us.

[Met Income]

Like any other African nation most likely.

Right, because tyranny was extremely prevalent there.

[Dunedain]

Humans are humans and if Haitians were born here, they'd be similar to us.

Africans have been in the U.S. for hundreds of years and haven't assimilated. They've got their own T.V, stations, their own holidays, their own parts of town/cities, their own unique English dialect even (ebonics). They have their own racially based churches, their own racial advocacy groups, their own websites, their own culture. Here in Detroit there is virtually no integration between blacks and whites at all.

And Haitians would be different how?

[Dunedain]

Right, because tyranny was extremely prevalent there.

Tyranny was extremely prevalent in Japan for hundreds of years. Seems like they are doing alright. Maybe the people are different somehow?

[Met Income]

Tyranny was extremely prevalent in Japan for hundreds of years. Seems like they are doing alright. Maybe the people are different somehow?

Ok, you're free to have your beliefs. It must bother you that all humans have the same natural rights then, eh? :)

[Mini-Me]

That's like saying dogs are dogs. It's bullshit. Humans are extremely varied.

I've travelled far and wide and lived all over the world. I can tell you that humans are very different from one another, both individually and ethnically.

Here's what I don't understand: Why are you so confident that cultural differences across ethnicities/races are the result of race and genetics themselves, rather than other factors (even random factors)? Statistically speaking, the sample pool of cultures and races that evolved [mostly] separately is FAR too small to reliably come to that conclusion. To me, it always just keeps coming back to the idea that you really, really, really want to consider your own race superior, like you have a deep emotional need to, because you identify so much with your race.

[Dunedain]

Ok, you're free to have your beliefs. It must bother you that all humans have the same natural rights then, eh? :)

Why would that bother me? I'm really trying not to be rude with you but are you a kid or something? Please tell me you are...

[Met Income]

Why would that bother me? Are you a kid or something? Please tell me you are...

I'm a kid? I love that you call me a kid and in doing so, use an ad-hom. Irony is funny. :)

Do you agree or disagree that all humans possess the same natural rights?

[sofia]

Here's what I don't understand: Why are you so confident that cultural differences across ethnicities/races are the result of race and genetics themselves, rather than other factors (even random factors)? Statistically speaking, the sample pool of cultures and races that evolved separately is FAR too small to reliably come to that conclusion.

no difference between races?

ever watch the 100 and 200 meter races in the Olympics? See any white boys in em at all?

[BenIsForRon]

Africans have been in the U.S. for hundreds of years and haven't assimilated. They've got their own T.V, stations, their own holidays, their own parts of town/cities, their own unique English dialect even (ebonics). They have their own racially based churches, their own racial advocacy groups, their own websites, their own culture. Here in Detroit there is virtually no integration between blacks and whites at all.

And Haitians would be different how?

Can we ban this idiot? He basically just stated that whites are superior to blacks. He's a fucking white supremacist. Will he add an a value to our discussions on the forum? Or will he just serve as fodder for anti-Ron Paul bloggers in the future?

[Mini-Me]

no difference between races?

ever watch the 100 and 200 meter races in the Olympics? See any white boys in em at all?

Actually, even this is likely to have more to do with culture than race; for instance, Kenya's culture almost certainly celebrates running performance more than ours does, and this means Kenya is going to have a lot of really damn good runners. Similarly, you're going to be hard-pressed to find foreign teams that can regularly beat US basketball or football teams...and US soccer teams suck compared to foreign teams, because almost nobody here gives a shit about soccer, and for good reason. It's the most boring spectator sport of all time. ;) These kind of differences stem from the fact that different cultures have differing values and priorities.

Nevertheless, I do acknowledge that there are small differences, on average, between members of different "races," even if the boundaries between races are admittedly arbitrary (since race is not a discrete quality). Anyway, if you separate people by race and construct bell curves for each race for various traits (strength, speed, intelligence*, etc.), you're going to see slight differences in the averages. You're also likely to see differences in the outliers on both ends. However, these differences are going to be smaller than the standard deviation between members of the same race. What that means is this: The expected difference between you and another random person of your race is larger than the difference between the average person of various races. Furthermore, this means actual genetic differences between races are likely too small to answer huge disparities between their comparative fortunes, indicating that other more important factors are at play.

*I'm referring to a perfect intelligence test here though, which doesn't exist. Measuring intelligence is a tough one, because it's tough to measure intelligence independently from education and knowledge, which vary wildly based on socioeconomic factors...which in turn have complex causes themselves.

[BlackTerrel]

Africans have been in the U.S. for hundreds of years and haven't assimilated. They've got their own T.V, stations, their own holidays, their own parts of town/cities, their own unique English dialect even (ebonics). They have their own racially based churches, their own racial advocacy groups, their own websites, their own culture. Here in Detroit there is virtually no integration between blacks and whites at all.

Isn't Eminem from Detroit?

[BlackTerrel]

no difference between races?

ever watch the 100 and 200 meter races in the Olympics? See any white boys in em at all?

Interesting that people used to say that blacks had an advantage in boxing but now the top two heavyweights are white.

[literatim]

Right. What is a Haitian? It's just a human born in an awful situation (because freedom was shunned). We're not better or worse than Haitians because we happened to be born somewhere else.

It's always some excuse or another. African-Americans say they are living in poverty because they were in slavery for most of their existence here, despite opportunity given to them afterward. Haitians don't have this excuse, they killed all the whites and took their country for themselves. They had every opportunity to create a prosperous nation, but have simply failed to do so.

[Met Income]

Can we ban this idiot? He basically just stated that whites are superior to blacks. He's a fucking white supremacist. Will he add an a value to our discussions on the forum? Or will he just serve as fodder for anti-Ron Paul bloggers in the future?

Being invaded this close to MLK? Nah, not a coincidence. :)

[Mini-Me]

By the way, I want to brag about something:
I just ripped three nose hairs out, all at the same time, without bleeding. Fuckin' A.

[Mini-Me]

Being invaded this close to MLK? Nah, not a coincidence. :)

Oh, damn, you're right. The new arrivals may actually have exactly that in mind. This doesn't apply to long-time members though.

[Dunedain]

Here's what I don't understand: Why are you so confident that cultural differences across ethnicities/races are the result of race and genetics themselves, rather than other factors (even random factors)? Statistically speaking, the sample pool of cultures and races that evolved [mostly] separately is FAR too small to reliably come to that conclusion. To me, it always just keeps coming back to the idea that you really, really, really want to consider your own race superior, like you have a deep emotional need to, because you identify so much with your race.

Excellent question, I can see you are worth explaining this too.

First some background. I've been studying genetics, race and cultures for a long time. I was part of the Free Tibet movement and I've actually met the Dali Lama in McLeod Ganj in India where I taught in a monestary. I've spent a lot of my life living in other people's nations (and never in the military). I certainly don't think my culture is superior to anyone elses. But I've learned that "culture" is simply a macro-genetic expression of the people in the society. The ant makes the ant-hill, so to speak, not the other way around.

So why do I put a high "price" on genetics as a driver of behavior...the science. Identical twin testing reveals that your genes play at least as big of a role as the environment in what you become. We can SEE it in height and weight....but it has been proven that criminals that are adopted by law-abiding families still are likely to become criminals. You would be amazed at how many other things our genetics controls. At the macro level these behaviors are expressed as "culture".

To your other question: do I identify with my race? Definately, why would I deny a part of myself? That will happen to you to if you spend enough time as a minority (as I have). I am I supremacist? No, I wouldn't be so interested in travel if that were the case. I believe every race is worthy of self-determination (yes, even people who are white).

Finally (and I in no way expect you to be able to understand this) the entire Liberty Movement is a European American civil rights movement (yet some deny it even to themselves). Almost everyone without exception involved at the rallies is white, even in "diverse" places like Austin Texas. We talk about issues in which minorities are rarely interested. We say liberty is for everybody but no one else gives a shit or they would be at the rallies. Same for anti-gun control, free market, etc.

It will become obvious to everyone eventually as the media villifies us for being nazis. There is no other explaination for why liberty is so "white". you've been educated to believe that everything white is bad. The media is going to show you over and over again that the liberty movement is white (and this is always negative in the media).

This is my purpose for being on the board. I realize that the only thing that can sink the liberty movement is the white guilt complex most people who are white h have. The media will call Ron Paul a racist if he is about to win. They will call him a six-million-jew-hating-nazi and people who are white will not support him and turn their back on him like a leper, unless people see throught the bullshit. And if we can't even see through the bullshit on this board, we're screwed. This is our one weakness. We have to get ready for this QUICKLY and we are making progress. I'm very happy to see this issue discuss on the board.

[Reason]

YouTube - Reporter's Notebook: Tensions Rise Amid Devastation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRG2IQfRMf0)

[Mini-Me]

Excellent question, I can see you are worth explaining this too.

First some background. I've been studying genetics, race and cultures for a long time. I was part of the Free Tibet movement and I've actually met the Dali Lama in McLeod Ganj in India where I taught in a monestary. I've spent a lot of my life living in other people's nations (and never in the military). I certainly don't think my culture is superior to anyone elses. But I've learned that "culture" is simply a macro-genetic expression of the people in the society. The ant makes the ant-hill, so to speak, not the other way around.
I understand the concept, but why are you so certain that culture is an expression of group genetics? Sure, it's certainly not inconceivable that group genetics could play a role. After all, we can roughly guess the behavioral characteristics of a dog by breed. The problem with this hypothesis though, is that humans are FAR more genetically similar to each other than other species, such as dogs.

The way I see it, civilization has had a short and chaotic history. A single exceptional person with a revolutionary idea can have an enormous impact on an entire culture and a ripple effect beyond that; see Jesus, for instance. Maybe certain kinds of outliers are more likely to emerge from certain races, or maybe not, but this doesn't really say much about the average member of any race either way. Perhaps I'm buying too easily into the "great man" theory of history, but I do think chaotic factors like these create domino effects. If Thomas Paine never lived, would the American Revolution have succeeded, or would we be reading British history books about abominable traitors to the king who were hanged 250 years ago (and good riddance to them!)?

If you look at the history of gunpowder, you'll notice that the Chinese introduced it to the west, whereupon western nations used it for imperial purposes. ;) Because your mind brings so much back to race, your first reaction to this would probably be to assume I'm ragging on the moral character of white people, but this isn't the way I see it at all. This isn't about white guilt. It isn't an indictment of white people. It's just that, because of cultural factors at the time - caused by a long chain of both predictable and random factors - western monarchs had more imperialist aims and managed to take the world by storm. Up until this time, China was largely more advanced (economically, culturally, etc.) than Europe, but a couple hundred years changed everything, and European nations became increasingly wealthy and powerful, while China became...well, hooked on dope. ;)

Ever since then, western nations have largely had economic and military advantages, and a great deal of our history has been shaped by the imperialism of their governments. Now, are white people more likely to be evil imperialists? I highly doubt it, since measured psychopathy is pretty similar across races. ;) There are certainly factors that led to these kind of policies, but we can't really trace them back to any first cause.

If colonists never went to Africa and interfered, would the whole continent still be a total shithole today, or would Africans have developed further by now? Nobody really knows for sure. Then again, maybe ANY race living in Africa would have continued living a tribal lifestyle perpetually, due to the natural resources and lay of the land. For whatever reason, black Africans were nowhere near as advanced as western Europeans by the time Europe became imperial, and it was all downhill from there.

Now, if we're going to examine the fortunes of black people collectively, we really only have a few major groups to judge, that I'm aware of. Each group has a different history, and the people within each group have a largely common history. For each group, there are a plethora of reasons (excuses?) for them to be in dire straits:
The black people who stayed in Africa: Here are some reasons (excuses?). At the start of western imperialism, they were already wayyyyy behind economically and culturally (in terms of philosophy, their understanding of the physical world around them, etc.). Natural resources suck, at least those useful for a self-sufficient closed system (this explains to some degree, whether major or minor, why they were already behind). During the slave trade, one of the most profitable enterprises was capturing poor souls from enemy tribes and selling them, and having the slave trade subsidized by wealthier cultures forestalled genuine economic development for even longer. Over the past few generations, America has propped up ruthless banana republics useful to corporate/elite interests and detrimental to African self-sufficiency, and the IMF and World Bank have loan-sharked the crap out of a whole bunch of countries. Some countries were colonized and adopted European culture and knowledge, like Zimbabwe and South Africa, but the native populations weren't exactly treated the best, so they wanted independence. Maybe they could have flourished after gaining independence, but they totally blew it out of stupidity and elected guys like Robert Mugabe. The question is, was their stupidity mostly genetic, or was it caused by environmental factors like their underdeveloped culture at the beginning of the colonial era, their oppressed status during the colonial era, and the fact that all they've ever known was tribalism and tyranny?
The black people who were brought into Europe, America, etc.: The usual reasons/excuses are slavery, Jim Crow laws, and lingering, self-perpetuating socioeconomic and educational disparity since then. All this was followed up by deliberately racially divisive policies on the part of the federal government, the point of which is a simple "divide and conquer" operation to create and maintain racial tension and therefore maintain political power. On top of that, we have "black leaders" and divisive racial organizations that make their money from perpetual black plight and justify their existence by it. Through them and other establishment power centers, black people are encouraged to adopt attitudes of dependency and despair, so they give up on even trying! This is especially handy for the Democratic Party, though it helps solidify the stability of the entire political establishment and protect it from a concerted attack by a united populace. The War on Drugs has also "helped." :rolleyes:
The black people who were brought into Haiti: Oyate gave a list of reasons/excuses in another thread.
The reasons listed above have certainly influenced the fortunes of each group of black people, but the question is, by how much? I would argue that they are the primary reasons that black people in general are so badly off. Maybe I'm wrong, though.

The alternative explanation is that these are all merely excuses and minor factors. The point you seem to be arguing is that the primary cause of black suffering is that black people are basically "too stupid for civilization," to put it crudely. Do you really think it's reasonable to argue this confidently though, when you're sampling such a small number of groups? You have three groups of black people that evolved largely separately with separate histories. How many groups can you split white people, Asians, etc. into? I imagine we're sampling a grand total of less than 20 major groups here, though I haven't counted. I see a bigger problem though, and I really take issue with it. You're not merely suggesting, "Maybe it's genetic stupidity." Instead, you seem to be vehemently insisting that it MUST be genetic stupidity, and it seems like you will not rest until everyone else agrees with you. All of the reasons/excuses above are perfectly logical explanations for the situation black people are in today, but no, you are determined that nobody accepts their validity in the slightest. WHY would you be so insistent that everyone embrace the most inflammatory, insulting, and arrogant explanation possible? Considering there ARE so many explanations and environmental factors at play, why is it so unacceptable to give people the benefit of the doubt and try to think the best of people? I see no rational reason for this, and this is why I think it comes down to base prejudices and an emotional need to cling to them.

Now, again, none of the reasons I listed above are meant to blame "the white man." I don't blame white people, because that would be fucking retarded. You can blame individuals, you can blame ill-advised ideologies, you can blame the structures of institutions, and you can blame certain human psychological tendencies, but blaming some collective of people is unfair and nonsensical. As for myself, I blame the coercive actions of governments run by SOCIOPATHS...like pretty much all governments from the beginning of civilization.

Yes, the most powerful countries over the last several centuries have been mostly white, and so their governments were comprised of white people too, but the key point here is I think that's incidental. This is the point I was making above about gunpowder and the rise of the west relative to China, etc. It just so happened that European and European-influenced nations became dominant during that critical developmental period in human history, and everything snowballed from there...but it didn't necessarily have to be this way based on our genetics, a la "western exceptionalism." If just a few things happened differently a few hundred years ago, it could have changed everything, and we might be reading about Confucianism in The United Imperial Provinces of China or something. ;)



So why do I put a high "price" on genetics as a driver of behavior...the science. Identical twin testing reveals that your genes play at least as big of a role as the environment in what you become. We can SEE it in height and weight....but it has been proven that criminals that are adopted by law-abiding families still are likely to become criminals. You would be amazed at how many other things our genetics controls. At the macro level these behaviors are expressed as "culture".
I don't doubt that differences in genetics between individuals create large behavioral differences, but it's something else to say that differences in genetics between average members of different groups create large behavioral differences. Maybe I'm talking out of my ass here, but I was always under the impression that for most non-superficial traits that can be measured in isolation from socioeconomic factors, the standard deviation between members of the same racial group is significantly higher than the difference between average members of different races.



To your other question: do I identify with my race? Definately, why would I deny a part of myself? That will happen to you to if you spend enough time as a minority (as I have). I am I supremacist? No, I wouldn't be so interested in travel if that were the case. I believe every race is worthy of self-determination (yes, even people who are white).
What about the self-determination of individuals though, beyond their race? This is what I am concerned with, particularly in America.



Finally (and I in no way expect you to be able to understand this) the entire Liberty Movement is a European American civil rights movement (yet people are not conscience of that fact). Yet, almost everyone without exception involved at the rallies is white, even in "diverse" places like Austin Texas. We talk about issues in which minorities are rarely interested. We say liberty is for everybody but no one else gives a shit or they would be at the rallies. Same for anti-gun control, free market, etc.

"No one else gives a shit," yet the guy holding an "assault rifle" at a Tea Party was a black man. jmdrake is black. BlackTerrel might be black too, but I'm not sure. ;) There are a bunch of other minority members on this board, some of Native American descent, Asian descent, etc. Hamadeh is a Muslim (Arabic? I'm not sure though), and I'm sure he's not alone. Yes, the vast majority of us are white, and there's no doubt about that, but saying this is a white or European civil rights movement is exclusive and unfairly closes it off to people of all races who also want liberty...regardless of what most people of their race want. If this is a "European civil rights movement," I consider that completely incidental to our purpose, which is an ideal anyone is free to share if they choose.

The United States is pretty much the only country in the entire world with a rich philosophical culture of liberty (although it was influenced by European Enlightenment philosophers as well), so it stands to reason that people descended from Enlightenment figures and allies would be on average far more conducive than others to carrying on that tradition. It also stands to reason that people born into other cultures would generally want to perpetuate their own cultural norms and ideals. However, that doesn't necessarily mean this process of cultural inheritance is genetic; it may be and probably is far more environmental than anything else.



It will become obvious to everyone eventually as the media villifies us for being nazis. There is no other explaination for why liberty is so "white". you've been educated to believe that everything white is bad. The media is going to show you over and over again that the liberty movement is white (and this is always negative in the media).
Why do you think the establishment is so racially divisive like this? Is it because the establishment is pro-minority, just because? Is it because the establishment wants to embrace any culture other than a pro-liberty culture? Or is it because the establishment is hell-bent on keeping us all divided by race so we can never unite against it? The middle reason is certainly the case, but I'm pretty sure the last reason also plays a huge role.



This is my purpose for being on the board. I realize that the only thing that can sink the liberty movement is the white guilt complex most people who are white h have. The media will call Ron Paul a racist if he is about to win. They will call him a six-million-jew-hating-nazi and people who are white will not support him and turn their back on him like a leper. This is our only weakness. We have to get ready for this QUICKLY and we are making progress.
Assume you're right about this. In that case, what do you think is more likely: You manage to cure people of white guilt so they fear no brand of racism, and you eliminate the threat of that scarlet letter all in the matter of a couple years...or, the racially inflammatory language you use gives the media and radically racist left a whole bunch of ammo to substantiate their claims, therefore scaring more people off? I mean, I genuinely disagree with your views on race, but even if I agreed, I wouldn't want to go shouting them from the rooftops while representing a guy like Ron Paul, who not only also disagrees with such views, but whom the establishment has every reason to ruin.

[Oyate]

It's always some excuse or another. African-Americans say they are living in poverty because they were in slavery for most of their existence here, despite opportunity given to them afterward. Haitians don't have this excuse, they killed all the whites and took their country for themselves. They had every opportunity to create a prosperous nation, but have simply failed to do so.

Astounding. Simply astounding.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=226806

You guys are siding with the Federal Reservists against one of it's historic victims.

[Electric Church]

That's like saying dogs are dogs.

If these racists would have said things like this about Jews, especially if an earthquake in Israel just killed 50,000 of them, they would have been banned after one post. But they've been spewing this vile for days.

This says a lot about this entire forum, don't it?

[Oyate]

This is my purpose for being on the board. I realize that the only thing that can sink the liberty movement is the white guilt complex most people who are white h have.

Uh-huh. Well it's something about your constant flurry of attacks upon the Haitian people and your constant comparisons to them and African peoples that indicates a certain guilt in you to me.

People all over the world are voluntarily giving to help these people of their own free will. Why does that bother you?

Hey John Wayne, you already won North America remember? Why are you still on the war path?

[Bman]

If these racists would have said things like this about Jews, especially if an earthquake in Israel just killed 50,000 of them, they would have been banned after one post. But they've been spewing this vile for days.

This says a lot about this entire forum, don't it?

It would if what you said was true. Both types you are talking about get ridiculous amounts of leave way, IMO. Other types do also. Good, bad? Guess it depends on quite a few tangibles.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Excellent question, I can see you are worth explaining this too.

First some background. I've been studying genetics, race and cultures for a long time. I was part of the Free Tibet movement and I've actually met the Dali Lama in McLeod Ganj in India where I taught in a monestary. I've spent a lot of my life living in other people's nations (and never in the military). I certainly don't think my culture is superior to anyone elses. But I've learned that "culture" is simply a macro-genetic expression of the people in the society. The ant makes the ant-hill, so to speak, not the other way around.

So why do I put a high "price" on genetics as a driver of behavior...the science. Identical twin testing reveals that your genes play at least as big of a role as the environment in what you become. We can SEE it in height and weight....but it has been proven that criminals that are adopted by law-abiding families still are likely to become criminals. You would be amazed at how many other things our genetics controls. At the macro level these behaviors are expressed as "culture".

To your other question: do I identify with my race? Definately, why would I deny a part of myself? That will happen to you to if you spend enough time as a minority (as I have). I am I supremacist? No, I wouldn't be so interested in travel if that were the case. I believe every race is worthy of self-determination (yes, even people who are white).

Finally (and I in no way expect you to be able to understand this) the entire Liberty Movement is a European American civil rights movement (yet some deny it even to themselves). Almost everyone without exception involved at the rallies is white, even in "diverse" places like Austin Texas. We talk about issues in which minorities are rarely interested. We say liberty is for everybody but no one else gives a shit or they would be at the rallies. Same for anti-gun control, free market, etc.

It will become obvious to everyone eventually as the media villifies us for being nazis. There is no other explaination for why liberty is so "white". you've been educated to believe that everything white is bad. The media is going to show you over and over again that the liberty movement is white (and this is always negative in the media).

This is my purpose for being on the board. I realize that the only thing that can sink the liberty movement is the white guilt complex most people who are white h have. The media will call Ron Paul a racist if he is about to win. They will call him a six-million-jew-hating-nazi and people who are white will not support him and turn their back on him like a leper, unless people see throught the bullshit. And if we can't even see through the bullshit on this board, we're screwed. This is our one weakness. We have to get ready for this QUICKLY and we are making progress. I'm very happy to see this issue discuss on the board.

Minorities not being so-pro-liberty doesn't have anything to do with race or genetics. It has everything to do with the Government handing out our money to them. People are rational self-interests. It is very hard for people to vote against their immediate self-interest. If we flipped the situation you would see more minorities being pro-liberty and less whites. Again, race plays no part, whatsoever. The only differences in races and ethnicities are purely physiological. Blacks tend to be taller, bigger hands, etc. Asians tend to be smaller, etc. Thats the extent of difference.

[literatim]

The whole Haiti situation is a plague in the making. We should be defending ourselves from possible outbreak instead of helping them.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,583156,00.html

[Oyate]

Which liberty movement is Dunedain talking about? I'm in the one populated exclusively by Jews, blacks, hispanics, Muslims, persons of mixed descent, the ones that makes friends with other sovereign republican movements like the republic of Lakota and it incidentally has gobs and gobs of whites running around, both Christian and just about every other faith including those of no faith--the atheists. Oh and lots of us are multiracial meaning we're some mix of things. Me, I'm from the state of the "Black Man With Gun". He's a cool guy. You should meet him some time.

Which is this all-white movement he's talking about?

[Electric Church]

Guess it depends on quite a few tangibles.


There are two tangibles here:

An entire nation has all but been decimated
The survivors are equated to "dogs".

If Israel was all but decimated and the survivors were equated to "dogs' these racists would have been banned in a hot second.

This kind of tolerance exposes the entire forum.

[Oyate]

This kind of tolerance exposes the entire forum.

I guess some of us are wondering if that's not the intent.

Dunedain says he's here to relieve us of our "white guilt". How reassuring for those of us who aren't white.

[prophet]

Minorities not being so-pro-liberty doesn't have anything to do with race or genetics. It has everything to do with the Government handing out our money to them. People are rational self-interests. It is very hard for people to vote against their immediate self-interest. If we flipped the situation you would see more minorities being pro-liberty and less whites. Again, race plays no part, whatsoever. The only differences in races and ethnicities are purely physiological. Blacks tend to be taller, bigger hands, etc. Asians tend to be smaller, etc. Thats the extent of difference.

Genetics doesn't matter. The Queen of England, being one of the world's leading liberals on the question of race, would agree wholeheartedly with you.

The Queen of England is also one of the world's leading thoroughbred race horse breeders/owners.

Wonder why she pays $150k to breed her mares to this horse: http://www.lanesend.com/stallions/stallions/belong_to_me/index.html

When she could get a foal just as tall, with 'feet' just as big just a few stalls away, for $7.5k? http://www.lanesend.com/stallions/stallions/aragorn/index.html

Do you think Ol Liz really believes genetics are that important in horses and inconsequential in humans? Really?

[literatim]

There are two tangibles here:

An entire nation has all but been decimated
The survivors are equated to "dogs".

If Israel was all but decimated and the survivors were equated to "dogs' these racists would have been banned in a hot second.

This kind of tolerance exposes the entire forum.

The survivors are building walls by piling bodies to keep aid out. What exactly would you call these types of people?

[Electric Church]

I guess some of us are wondering if that's not the intent.

After viewing all the threads on Haiti, the twisting of historical facts to make them look incapable of self-government and ungovernable, calling them "dogs' and "savages" there must be some sort of intent here. Maybe they’re planning on changing the name of this forum to the "Pat Robertson Goes Ape" Forum.

[Oyate]

After viewing all the threads on Haiti, the twisting of historical facts to make them look incapable of self-government and ungovernable, calling them "dogs' and "savages" there must be some sort of intent here. Maybe they’re planning on changing the name of this forum to the "Pat Robertson Goes Ape" Forum.

Notice it's a triangulated assault? New profiles chiming right in? It feels exactly like antiwar forums in the runup to the GWOT.

[Bman]

After viewing all the threads on Haiti, the twisting of historical facts to make them look incapable of self-government and ungovernable, calling them "dogs' and "savages" there must be some sort of intent here. Maybe they’re planning on changing the name of this forum to the "Pat Robertson Goes Ape" Forum.

It is pretty pathetic from time to time. My best suggestion is that if you are here long enough you will realize who is what. There are some very good, very decent people on this forum, and yes it would be ashame for them to be catergorized with others that come here that are not representatives of the liberty movement.

Our goal is to make sure that only the creme rises to the top. There will alwys be those out there who will work to discredit or undermind what is going on. I disagree that there is favoritism, or a weighted scale. There are plenty here who get away daily with bashing Jewish people. I've made my own personal pleas to curb such behaviour. Time will tell how it all plays out.

[Electric Church]

Notice it's a triangulated assault? New profiles chiming right in? It feels exactly like antiwar forums in the runup to the GWOT.

Hmmm... the blatant racism is astonishing. But the tolerance is puzzling. Maybe it's the beginnings of the war on the image of Ron Paul supporters.

[prophet]

You are asked: "ever watch the 100 and 200 meter races in the Olympics? See any white boys in em at all?" You reply:
Actually, even this is likely to have more to do with culture than race;

Then I look at this--- 2008 Olympic men's 100 meters
August 16, 2008
1. Usain Bolt, JAM, 9.69
2. Richard Thompson, TRI, 9.89
3. Walter Dix, USA, 9.91
4. Churandy Martina, AHO, 9.93
5. Asafa Powell, JAM, 9.95
6. Michael Frater, JAM, 9.97
7. Marc Burns, TRI, 10.01
8. Darvis Patton, USA, 10.03

and I conclude: Ol' Mini-Me is right. They're all from the same culture, and represent several different races. Why did it take me so lng to see such a simple truth?:rolleyes:

PS: Kenya has NEVER had a sprinter in the finals of the 100 meters.

[Electric Church]

There are some very good, very decent people on this forum,

Oh yes... I am quite aware of that. But I've never seen this forum so tolerant to this type of blatant in-your-face racism. I guess now you can call suffering and devastated black people dogs, savages, or anything else and not get the boot as long as you don't use the "n" word.

[Electric Church]

There are plenty here who get away daily with bashing Jewish people.


Yes but not like what I'm seeing here.... there's absolutely no comparison. I gave an earlier example and it would not be tolerated for one second referring to Jews.

[Bman]

Yes but not like what I'm seeing here.... there's absolutely no comparison. I gave an earlier example and it would not be tolerated for one second referring to Jews.

I think it's pretty much all awful. Maybe you think a new line has been crossed, and maybe it has. I see it more as a different line equal in ignorance.

[Electric Church]

I think it's pretty much all awful. Maybe you think a new line has been crossed, and maybe it has. I see it more as a different line equal in ignorance.

I think they're gonna start posting cranial measurements pretty soon to compare genetic differences.

[prophet]

Hmmm... the blatant racism is astonishing. But the tolerance is puzzling. Maybe it's the beginnings of the war on the image of Ron Paul supporters. Racism is a form of collectivism, and is not tolerated here. OTOH liberal asininity goes largely unremarked.

If you say:"Africans are genetically superior sprinters." Bad! This treats Africans collectively, and, despite all 8 of the finalists in the Olympic 100 meters being men of West African descent for the last several Olympiads, it will not be tolerated.

If you say:"Africans are just as capable as anyone of forming a civilization that values the individual and personal liberty," that's OK. Of course that also is treating them as a collective group, and there are NO examples to be offered in support, but it is a nice, liberal thing to say, so it is to be lauded.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Racism is a form of collectivism, and is not tolerated here. OTOH liberal asininity goes largely unremarked.

If you say:"Africans are genetically superior sprinters." Bad! This treats Africans collectively, and, despite all 8 of the finalists in the Olympic 100 meters being men of West African descent for the last several Olympiads, it will not be tolerated.

If you say:"Africans are just as capable as anyone of forming a civilization that values the individual and personal liberty," that's OK. Of course that also is treating them as a collective group, and there are NO examples to be offered in support, but it is a nice, liberal thing to say, so it is to be lauded.

Really? Have you ever read up on the Somalian Xeer? If we got the fuck out of Somalia as well as the UN and stopped trying to implement a State where it isn't wanted, I'd bet in 50 years Somalia would be as developed or more developed than Hong Kong.

[prophet]

Yes but not like what I'm seeing here.... there's absolutely no comparison. I gave an earlier example and it would not be tolerated for one second referring to Jews. I try not to treat people as collectives, but since you use the term "Jews," I will say that if an earthquake hit Israel tonight, you can be 100% sure that the reaction will not be to take up machetes and start hacking each other to death. In whatever "culture" they have found themselves, over many centuries, the Jews have always been civilized. Their reaction to disaster of any kind will always be that which you would expect from civilized people. I submit that there is no better proof of "Nature over nurture" than the Jewish people.

I know I shouldn't refer to Jews collectively, but, since Ayn Rand referred to Arabs collectively, maybe I can be granted the one indulgence.

[Electric Church]

Amazing… Bomb them, plunder them, displace them, torture them, enslave them, poison them and then accuse them of being uncivilized… quite a sick bunch of characters we've got here.

[prophet]

Really? Have you ever read up on the Somalian Xeer? If we got the fuck out of Somalia as well as the UN and stopped trying to implement a State where it isn't wanted, I'd bet in 50 years Somalia would be as developed or more developed than Hong Kong.Somalia has about as little "State" as has ever existed anywhere in history. It should be a libertarian's wet dream. :D

It would be, if it weren't chock full of Somalis.

[Bman]

Really? Have you ever read up on the Somalian Xeer? If we got the fuck out of Somalia as well as the UN and stopped trying to implement a State where it isn't wanted, I'd bet in 50 years Somalia would be as developed or more developed than Hong Kong.

That's a bold statement, but it certainly wouldn't be the hell hole it is today.

[Oyate]

I try not to treat people as collectives, but since you use the term "Jews," I will say that if an earthquake hit Israel tonight, you can be 100% sure that the reaction will not be to take up machetes and start hacking each other to death. In whatever "culture" they have found themselves, over many centuries, the Jews have always been civilized. Their reaction to disaster of any kind will always be that which you would expect from civilized people. I submit that there is no better proof of "Nature over nurture" than the Jewish people.

I know I shouldn't refer to Jews collectively, but, since Ayn Rand referred to Arabs collectively, maybe I can be granted the one indulgence.

Shift change? Howdy.

In neither the USA or Israel do I see civilized foreign policy. Or in the case of Israel, domestic policy.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

That's a bold statement, but it certainly wouldn't be the hell hole it is today.

While it isn't the most pleasant place to live, it is much better today Stateless than it was under a State. So much for Hobbes BS right?

As to Prophet, I have no more words to such a racist as yourself.

[Oyate]

That's a bold statement, but it certainly wouldn't be the hell hole it is today.

Bold yes but spoken like a true Austrian economist. Full faith in human creativity.

[Bman]

Somalia has about as little "State" as has ever existed anywhere in history. It should be a libertarian's wet dream. :D

It would be, if it weren't chock full of Somalis.

What? Not right at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Somalia

The problem is someones always trying to take over and instll a government. Get rid of that major flaw and it would be as you say, a libertarians wet dream. However all the fighting for control of government makes it quite far from a libertarian idea.

[prophet]

Amazing… Bomb them, plunder them, displace them, torture them, enslave them, poison them and then accuse them of being uncivilized… quite a sick bunch of characters we've got here. You ought to stop abusing folks that way. I don't understand why anyone would want to bomb, plunder, displace torture and enslave people.

You take my generation of white Americans, for example. We had a backward group among us back in the '60s, and we did something about it. We gave two generations of them preference over ourselves in employment and education and gave them money, housing, food and medical care. In return, we got Detroit.

[Bman]

Bold yes but spoken like a true Austrian economist. Full faith in human creativity.

Yeah. but talk about setting the bar high.

[Oyate]

So much for Hobbes BS right?

LOL! I hold validity in Hobbes but it seemed obvious to me the guy was a paranoiac. However Locke comes across as such a libertine as to retroactively INSURE Hobbes' paranoia.

[Oyate]

You ought to stop abusing folks that way. I don't understand why anyone would want to bomb, plunder, displace torture and enslave people.

You take my generation of white Americans, for example. We had a backward group among us back in the '60s, and we did something about it. We gave two generations of them preference over ourselves in employment and education and gave them money, housing, food and medical care. In return, we got Detroit.

Don't think we don't notice you twisting people's words. OP was referring to you and yours and you know it.

[prophet]

While it isn't the most pleasant place to live, it is much better today Stateless than it was under a State. So much for Hobbes BS right?

As to Prophet, I have no more words to such a racist as yourself. In a country where a woman who belongs to an organization called "La Raza"(The RACE), and who, as a student was a member of a group whose slogan is "Inside the RACE, everything, outside the RACE, nothing," can be appointed to the Supreme Court, i guess it's OK to be called a "Racist." I will note that it only happens when a liberal is faced with facts.

As for Hobbes, I can assure you that there are many places, inhabited by certain racial groups, where life is indeed, "Lonely, nasty, brutish and short."

BTW, I live near a city of a almost a quarter of a million people, where the last remaining book store closed last week. According to the Census Bureau, 94.1% of that population is eligible for membership in La Raza. A quarter of a million of them, and not ONE book store. Culture.

[Oyate]

OK so this is the cognitive attack for us? Inject racism all over the place and seek to divide us? Attempt to further portray the movement as racist in the media?

Yer not gonna win. We're too diverse to internalize your message. But it is singularly heartless of you to exploit the suffering of so many people to advance your agenda.

[Oyate]

certain racial groups

You are coming through loud and clear. You and your little cohort. I denounce you as a racist.

[prophet]

Don't think we don't notice you twisting people's words. OP was referring to you and yours and you know it. I don't know why you people insist on judging me by membership in some supposed group. I assure you that I have never bombed, plundered, enslaved or otherwise abused anyone, and I have a natural right to be judged as an individual.

[prophet]

You are coming through loud and clear. You and your little cohort. I denounce you as a racist.You should've met my Grandpappy!
Of course he was NOT a racist, since he lived and died before the communist, Trotsky, invented the term "Racist" in the 1930's, as a useful tool for "Denouncing" the enemies of Marxism.

[Oyate]

Anyone who's read Hobbes in historical context knows he published in an England that was 100% European. Wasn't anybody there but Europeans. Brittons were dimly aware Africa existed.

So the perils of ungoverned society that Hobbes wrote about were 100% European inspired. His thesis, in essence, was that without restraint, his own countrymen were little more than "savages".

[prophet]

You are coming through loud and clear. You and your little cohort. I denounce you as a racist.
I live in a state where 37% of the people(probably over half, counting the illegals), belong to or support an organization called "La Raza"(The RACE), and you criticize me for referring to them in the same manner??Huh??? BTW, I was at the Ron Paul barbecue a few months ago, and I noted the near complete absence of the "La Raza" folks.

[Oyate]

Anyways, to return to the topic, if you examine the history of Haiti, we find that they only approached any kind of self determination between 1804 when rebel republican forces declared independence in the French part of the island to 1825 when the French imposed reparations with the support of the USA and other European interests. About 20 years give or take a year or so. Ever since then they've been getting bashed over the head by external interests.

History. It's so handy for understanding like.....stuff, you know?

[Electric Church]

There’s only one intent here with all these racists threads and it’s orchestrated from the top down: to condition RP supporters to tolerate racism and especially racists.

I mean why even correspond with them? Talk to those who are not bigots about the bigots but don’t dignify bigots with correspondence.

Let the racists correspond among themselves at the pleasure of those who allow it. Be aware of those who will play off of each other: one will play the part of a racist and the other a non racist and they’ll get into a phony debate to drag others in thus giving the racist a seat at the table of civility. Racists don’t belong at any table with civilized human beings.

[prophet]

Anyways, to return to the topic, if you examine the history of Haiti, we find that they only approached any kind of self determination between 1804 when rebel republican forces declared independence in the French part of the island to 1825 when the French imposed reparations with the support of the USA and other European interests. About 20 years give or take a year or so. Ever since then they've been getting bashed over the head by external interests.

History. It's so handy for understanding like.....stuff, you know?
I was in Haiti in 1961. The photos I see today are not materially different from what I saw. If "External forces" are bashing them over the head, they ought to stop.

I don't understand why anyone would be interested in "Plundering" there during the last half century, because I can assure you there was nothing there worth stealing in 1961.

I have done my part, personally. I had a cousin who went down there about 15 years ago, as one of the 20 or 30 thousand American "Missionaries" who are there, and I did my best to talk him out of it. He went anyway.

Now he is an atheist. :D

[prophet]

There’s only one intent here with all these racists threads and it’s orchestrated from the top down: to condition RP supporters to tolerate racism and especially racists.

I mean why even correspond with them? Talk to those who are not bigots about the bigots but don’t dignify bigots with correspondence.

Let the racists correspond among themselves at the pleasure of those who allow it. Be aware of those who will play off of each other: one will play the part of a racist and the other a non racist and they’ll get into a phony debate to drag others in thus giving the racist a seat at the table of civility. Racists don’t belong at any table with civilized human beings.
I honestly don't think you have any idea what the word means. It is quite obvious that you use it as it was meant to be used by its inventor, Trotsky---to attack political opponents when you are short on facts.

I will try to help you by giving you an example of a REAL racist. "We have an aging white America ... They are dying ...We have got to eliminate the gringo, and what I mean by that is if the worst comes to the worst, we have got to kill him."----Jose Angel Gutierrez, professor, University of Texas, and founder of "La Raza."

[Oyate]

There’s only one intent here with all these racists threads and it’s orchestrated from the top down: to condition RP supporters to tolerate racism and especially racists.

I mean why even correspond with them? Talk to those who are not bigots about the bigots but don’t dignify bigots with correspondence.

Let the racists correspond among themselves at the pleasure of those who allow it. Be aware of those who will play off of each other: one will play the part of a racist and the other a non racist and they’ll get into a phony debate to drag others in thus giving the racist a seat at the table of civility. Racists don’t belong at any table with civilized human beings.

You make a good point. It's one that's been made many times. The whole thing, right down to the implied attitudes, are exactly the same as it was under the Bush II Pentabloggers. And later the AIPAC bloggers. You are certainly hip to their techniques. Glad you showed up. Maybe we should trade some notes in PM. After all, if we're correct, they are drawing up attack lists on us right now.

[Mini-Me]

You are asked: "ever watch the 100 and 200 meter races in the Olympics? See any white boys in em at all?" You reply:

Then I look at this--- 2008 Olympic men's 100 meters
August 16, 2008
1. Usain Bolt, JAM, 9.69
2. Richard Thompson, TRI, 9.89
3. Walter Dix, USA, 9.91
4. Churandy Martina, AHO, 9.93
5. Asafa Powell, JAM, 9.95
6. Michael Frater, JAM, 9.97
7. Marc Burns, TRI, 10.01
8. Darvis Patton, USA, 10.03

and I conclude: Ol' Mini-Me is right. They're all from the same culture, and represent several different races. Why did it take me so lng to see such a simple truth?:rolleyes:

PS: Kenya has NEVER had a sprinter in the finals of the 100 meters.

Sorrrrrrrrrrrrrrry, I got the race wrong. In that case, how about viewing the OTHER half of the same post you're criticizing? :rolleyes:

Anyway, wtf are you, some kind of Stormfront sleeper cell? You've been registered since 2007, never really posted much, and now you're here a couple days before MLK day spamming inflammatory stuff about race? :rolleyes: Dunedain may be a bit of a one-issue poster, and I may strongly disagree with him and think his racial views are likely to get us all smeared, but I can at least respect the fact that he doesn't come off as malicious. You, on the other hand, I cannot say the same about.

[Oyate]

They...brought us parrots and balls of cotton and spears and many other things, which they exchanged for the glass beads and hawks' bells. They willingly traded everything they owned...They do not bear arms, and do not know them, for I showed them a sword, they took it by the edge and cut themselves out of ignorance...They would make fine servants...With fifty men we could subjugate them all and make them do whatever we want....As soon as I arrived in the Indies, on the first Island which I found, I took some of the natives by force in order that they might learn and might give me information of whatever there is in these parts.

-C. Columbus, 1492

[prophet]

Sorrrrrrrrrrrrrrry, I got the race wrong. In that case, how about viewing the OTHER half of the same post you're criticizing? :rolleyes:

Anyway, wtf are you, some kind of Stormfront sleeper cell? You've been registered since 2007, never really posted much, and now you're here a couple days before MLK day spamming inflammatory stuff about race? :rolleyes: Dunedain may be a bit of a one-issue poster, and I may strongly disagree with him and think his racial views are likely to get us all smeared, but I can at least respect the fact that he doesn't come off as malicious. You, on the other hand, I cannot say the same about.I'm not malicious. Jose Angel Gutierrez is malicious.

I am what I am. I have posted these last few days, because it finally became just too much. watching a group of people, most of whom are honest libertarians, try to wriggle out of the inescapable conclusion that liberty is a European concept, which hs never been compatible with any other people, and never will be. these honest libertarians are also infiltrated by a group of people whose politics are indistinguishable from that of the liberal wing of the Democrat Party.

You are living in a country where a combination of government and "Peer pressure" has made you some the most un-free people in the world, and you don't even know it. You are scared to death to talk realistically about what is going on in your country, fearing an epithet. Then, when faced with facts, you hurl the epithet yourself, being devoid of countering facts.

Contrast the behavior of PC Americans with that of FREE Israelis: Ynet news, an Israeli site has an article on Haiti. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3834878,00.html

the first response to the article is worth a read. It says: "1. Giving money to a failed state is like

pissing money down the toilet.

Stop playing the game you want to save the world.

Yesterday a one year old Jewish child suffered a severe injury in Israel thanks to those you love to have pity on.(Arab terrorists)

Charity begins at home.

Stop playing the save the world" putz and start looking after your own.

As far as those dumb wade Israelis looking for adventure in the shit holes of the world..tell them in no uncertain words they are on their own.

You owe them nothing...Look after your own."
Al (01.15.10)

If a "Free" American posted the same thing here, he would be in a heap of trouble.

[prophet]

Sorrrrrrrrrrrrrrry, I got the race wrong. In that case, how about viewing the OTHER half of the same post you're criticizing? :rolleyes:

Anyway, wtf are you, some kind of Stormfront sleeper cell? You've been registered since 2007, never really posted much, and now you're here a couple days before MLK day spamming inflammatory stuff about race? :rolleyes: Dunedain may be a bit of a one-issue poster, and I may strongly disagree with him and think his racial views are likely to get us all smeared, but I can at least respect the fact that he doesn't come off as malicious. You, on the other hand, I cannot say the same about. Employing personal smears, rather than refuting someone's facts or reasoning from said facts, is a tactic of the LEFT. I have been exposed to them for half a century. They never change. They can't change, because they are devoid of supporting facts for their positions.

[Oyate]

these honest libertarians are also infiltrated by a group of people whose politics are indistinguishable from that of the liberal wing of the Democrat Party.

Yeah that happens around here all the time.......as if. Oh but speaking of infiltration........

[Mini-Me]

I'm not malicious. Jose Angel Gutierrez is malicious.
Yes, I have no doubt that Jose Angel Gutierrez is quite malicious, and I'll call out minorities for their blatant racism when I see it too. I'm just not bothered to go looking for it or starting new threads about it. In contrast, racism from white people (I assume, unless it's a false flag op) is being posted right on the message board in front of me, and I'm certainly going to be damn suspicious about it all flaring up a few days before MLK day like it's an organized smear campaign by a political enemy or COINTELPRO or something. :rolleyes:



I am what I am. I have posted these last few days, because it finally became just too much. watching a group of people, most of whom are honest libertarians, try to wriggle out of the inescapable conclusion that liberty is a European concept, which hs never been compatible with any other people, and never will be.
The philosophy of liberty did start in Europe, but I see absolutely no evidence to suggest it MUST stem from genetics, and there are just enough very non-European people on this very board to disprove your claim that liberty has never been compatible with non-Europeans.

As far as your "and never will be" comment: If you have a crystal ball, let me know about what stocks it's picking.



these honest libertarians are also infiltrated by a group of people whose politics are indistinguishable from that of the liberal wing of the Democrat Party.
Who would that be? I need you to be a little more specific, because the only infiltration I'm seeing is from government ops and Stormfront...and/or liberal or neocon trolls pretending to be part of the latter group. :rolleyes:

If you think anyone's politics here are even remotely like ANY sitting Democrat's, then it's obvious you have complete tunnel vision on issues of race and immigration...because I see literally nobody here anymore who's anywhere near a socialist.


You are living in a country where a combination of government and "Peer pressure" has made you some the most un-free people in the world, and you don't even know it. You are scared to death to talk realistically about what is going on in your country, fearing an epithet. Then, when faced with facts, you hurl the epithet yourself, being devoid of countering facts.
This is actually true in part, but sometimes a spade is just a spade, and a racist is just a racist, and the "racist" epithet works as an apt description, despite its absurd overuse and abuse by the left and the Defamation League as a political club.

Personally, I don't care if you're a racist, as long as you don't advocate violence or coercive force against people. You can be as racist as you want. If it floats your boat, you can masturbate to starving Haitians eating mud pies and stacking the bodies of dead Haitians, and you can laugh and scream hysterically about how much better your race is right before you climax all over your pointy white hat, and you can put the hat on your head and sit back in smug self-satisfaction, and I really won't care.

However, if you're going to sit here and spam Ron Paul Forums - which has nothing to do with white nationalism, of all things - with a whole bunch of inflammatory racial comments alongside a goblin horde of a hundred 10-post noobs doing the same thing right before MLK day, I'm going to call you out for it. Do you know why? It's because that's not what this movement is about, and the left plays the "guilt by association" game, and I'm sick and tired of one-issue trolls legitimizing the excuses leftists give for ignoring us and flinging the "racist" epithet at us. Like almost everyone else here, I shouldn't have to put up with that crap, because - guess what - I'm actually not a racist.

Yes, white people are held to a way higher standard than anyone else when it comes to socially acceptable racial attitudes, and that needs to change someday, but you know what? We have way, WAY more important things to worry about than that right now anyway, like educating people about the threat of statist power-grabs. Plus, when we do find time to address double-standards and hypocrisy, it'll be time to hold everyone else to the high standard demanded of white people, rather than sink to the lowest common denominator of collectivist chest-beating we can possibly muster. If you disagree, maybe the white nationalist movement is more up your alley than this one?



Contrast the behavior of PC Americans with that of FREE Israelis: Ynet news, an Israeli site has an article on Haiti. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3834878,00.html

the first response to the article is worth a read. It says: "1. Giving money to a failed state is like

pissing money down the toilet.

Stop playing the game you want to save the world.

Yesterday a one year old Jewish child suffered a severe injury in Israel thanks to those you love to have pity on.(Arab terrorists)

Charity begins at home.

Stop playing the save the world" putz and start looking after your own.

As far as those dumb wade Israelis looking for adventure in the shit holes of the world..tell them in no uncertain words they are on their own.

You owe them nothing...Look after your own."
Al (01.15.10)

If a "Free" American posted the same thing here, he would be in a heap of trouble.

Huh? That comment was nothing compared to what has been said in this thread and a few others, and when it comes to Arabs, making snide remarks about Arab terrorists is a spectator sport on Fox News. :rolleyes:

[Oyate]

when it comes to Arabs, making snide remarks about Arab terrorists is a spectator sport on Fox News. :rolleyes:

Yeah and it's always appropriate on a thread about Haiti LOL. They don't have much in the way of scripting do they?

[prophet]

The philosophy of liberty did start in Europe, but I see absolutely no evidence to suggest it MUST stem from genetics, and there are just enough very non-European people on this very board to disprove your claim that liberty has never been compatible with non-Europeans.
Compared to the two RP rallies and the RP Barbecue I attended, the number of "very non-European people on this very board," is so high that it should raise the thought of infiltration in you mind.




Who would that be? I need you to be a little more specific, because the only infiltration I'm seeing is from government ops and Stormfront...and/or liberal or neocon trolls pretending to be part of the latter group. :rolleyes:

If you think anyone's politics here are even remotely like ANY sitting Democrat's, then it's obvious you have complete tunnel vision on issues of race and immigration...because I see literally nobody here anymore who's anywhere near a socialist.


:rolleyes:
This is the paradox I am talking about here. I could fill a thread with quotes form Dr. Paul's colleagues who are members of the "Black Caucus," calling him and his movement "Racist." Yet the racial views of many on this board, including some of the mods, is absolutely indistinguishable from that of the Balck Caucus.

You can call me names every time I post facts you can't refute, but that does not change the fact that, as long as you oppose welfare and affirmative action, you and your movement are, by definition, "Racist," and both Dr. Paul and this movement will be so branded.

As long as Dr. Paul opposes wars for Israel and aid to Israel, he will be an "Anti-semite."

When the little Jew down the street calls someone an "Anti-semite," it means little, but when a Jew of the standing of Ben Stein calls Dr. Paul an anti-semite on national TV, then, for better or worse, that is what he is in the mind of the sheeple.

I don't think this board should be "Blatantly racist." It would be counter-productive and a disservice to Dr. Paul, given his own baggage in that regard. But the total denial of all racial truth is a little much. It makes us a laughingstock in the eyes of the enemies of liberty.

Now, I will let you rest for a few days, and enjoy your Holiday---which, BTW, Dr. Paul OPPOSED!

[Oyate]

the number of "very non-European people on this very board," is so high that it should raise the thought of infiltration in you mind.

Freedom is popular, it's open to all people. 'Fraid yer gonna have to get used to it.

[Danke]

//

[Mini-Me]

Compared to the two RP rallies and the RP Barbecue I attended, the number of "very non-European people on this very board," is so high that it should raise the thought of infiltration in you mind.
I have my own thoughts as to what infiltration looks like. What the heck would any enemy of liberty have to gain from "infiltrating" us by pretending to be liberty-loving minorities anyway? :rolleyes:



This is the paradox I am talking about here. I could fill a thread with quotes form Dr. Paul's colleagues who are members of the "Black Caucus," calling him and his movement "Racist." Yet the racial views of many on this board, including some of the mods, is absolutely indistinguishable from that of the Balck Caucus.

You can call me names every time I post facts you can't refute, but that does not change the fact that, as long as you oppose welfare and affirmative action, you and your movement are, by definition, "Racist," and both Dr. Paul and this movement will be so branded.

As long as Dr. Paul opposes wars for Israel and aid to Israel, he will be an "Anti-semite."

When the little Jew down the street calls someone an "Anti-semite," it means little, but when a Jew of the standing of Ben Stein calls Dr. Paul an anti-semite on national TV, then, for better or worse, that is what he is in the mind of the sheeple.

I don't think this board should be "Blatantly racist." It would be counter-productive and a disservice to Dr. Paul, given his own baggage in that regard. But the total denial of all racial truth is a little much. It makes us a laughingstock in the eyes of the enemies of liberty.

Now, I will let you rest for a few days, and enjoy your Holiday---which, BTW, Dr. Paul OPPOSED!

Thank you for a much more reasonable post. I now kind of regret spending all that time editing my post above (after you responded) to be much more of a jerk about everything, but I'll still let it stand in light of previous posts. ;)

Here's the thing: You say that the Black Caucus won't hesitate to call Ron Paul a racist, and the racial views of everyone on this board are the same as theirs, and yet...pretty much everyone here supports Ron Paul and is not calling him a racist. One of your above statements is necessarily untrue, because there's a contradiction.

I oppose welfare because I oppose theft and extortion (and because I have a basic grasp of economics and moral hazard). I oppose affirmation action first and foremost because I oppose state coercion against freely contracting individuals (and for economic reasons), and I also oppose it because it's blatantly racist and mocks the idea of both a meritocracy and a free country. Not only do I oppose foreign aid in general, but I ESPECIALLY oppose foreign aid to Israel, because their government's undue influence over US foreign policy and manipulation of US politics royally pisses me off. I refer to the Defamation League by its true name, and I'll be laughing a maniacal victory laugh when everyone else starts doing the same thing.

So, yes, a lot of people on the left (and neocons) will call me a racist, but I'm fine with them calling me racist for those reasons. In this case, it's easy to demonstrate that they're either being intellectual dishonest manipulators or absurdly illogical children who are lashing out emotionally in fear of being wrong. Even remotely receptive people will be able to discern the difference here between honest accusations of racism and transparent political smears.

However, I'm NOT fine with potentially receptive - but still timid - people honestly thinking Ron Paul supporters are racists and being afraid to listen to a word we say, because of guilt by association with outrageous trolls. I genuinely dislike collectivist judgments in general, but what I'm really concerned about is people coming here and making disgusting insinuations that black people are inherently stupid savages or something of that nature, and letting it go unchecked long enough for people to think it's representative of what liberty-advocates stand for. I'm not going to throw someone in a gulag or go over their house and handcuff their hands to a pole far away from their keyboard, but I'm not going to sit in silence either.

[Promontorium]

Excellent question, I can see you are worth explaining this too.

First some background. I've been studying genetics, race and cultures for a long time. I was part of the Free Tibet movement and I've actually met the Dali Lama in McLeod Ganj in India where I taught in a monestary. I've spent a lot of my life living in other people's nations (and never in the military). I certainly don't think my culture is superior to anyone elses. But I've learned that "culture" is simply a macro-genetic expression of the people in the society. The ant makes the ant-hill, so to speak, not the other way around.

So why do I put a high "price" on genetics as a driver of behavior...the science. Identical twin testing reveals that your genes play at least as big of a role as the environment in what you become. We can SEE it in height and weight....but it has been proven that criminals that are adopted by law-abiding families still are likely to become criminals. You would be amazed at how many other things our genetics controls. At the macro level these behaviors are expressed as "culture".

To your other question: do I identify with my race? Definately, why would I deny a part of myself? That will happen to you to if you spend enough time as a minority (as I have). I am I supremacist? No, I wouldn't be so interested in travel if that were the case. I believe every race is worthy of self-determination (yes, even people who are white).

Finally (and I in no way expect you to be able to understand this) the entire Liberty Movement is a European American civil rights movement (yet some deny it even to themselves). Almost everyone without exception involved at the rallies is white, even in "diverse" places like Austin Texas. We talk about issues in which minorities are rarely interested. We say liberty is for everybody but no one else gives a shit or they would be at the rallies. Same for anti-gun control, free market, etc.

It will become obvious to everyone eventually as the media villifies us for being nazis. There is no other explaination for why liberty is so "white". you've been educated to believe that everything white is bad. The media is going to show you over and over again that the liberty movement is white (and this is always negative in the media).

This is my purpose for being on the board. I realize that the only thing that can sink the liberty movement is the white guilt complex most people who are white h have. The media will call Ron Paul a racist if he is about to win. They will call him a six-million-jew-hating-nazi and people who are white will not support him and turn their back on him like a leper, unless people see throught the bullshit. And if we can't even see through the bullshit on this board, we're screwed. This is our one weakness. We have to get ready for this QUICKLY and we are making progress. I'm very happy to see this issue discuss on the board.


There is no such thing as white. Your premise is faulty, and therefore everything you conclude is and will continue to be invariably wrong.

[Joseph de Maistre]

This is actually true in part, but sometimes a spade is just a spade, and a racist is just a racist, and the "racist" epithet works as an apt description, despite its absurd overuse and abuse by the left and the Defamation League as a political club.

Personally, I don't care if you're a racist, as long as you don't advocate violence or coercive force against people. You can be as racist as you want. If it floats your boat, you can masturbate to starving Haitians eating mud pies and stacking the bodies of dead Haitians, and you can laugh and scream hysterically about how much better your race is right before you climax all over your pointy white hat, and you can put the hat on your head and sit back in smug self-satisfaction, and I really won't care.

It's all well and good to lambaste someone for being a "racist" when you've got the government on your side. Fact is: you're just doing what you're told.

The government is the dog owner and you're the pet: "Yes, good boy! Call that poster a racist every time he shows you a quote you don't like!"

See what happens when you support a position that the government doesn't allow. I went to public school, where I learned MLK is a hero to all men and that Washington and Jefferson were no good SOBs. I've been indoctrinated my entire life into that line of crap.

So, you're really just doing what you're told. Don't try to pretend that when you call someone a racist, it's different than when Al Sharpton does it. It's not - you're just doing tricks for your master, and you're not a free man, as a result.

[Dunedain]

There is no such thing as white. Your premise is faulty, and therefore everything you conclude is and will continue to be invariably wrong.

I agree that if you don't understand what white is you aren't going to understand the rest of my post.

Whites are the indigeous people of Europe. I'm not sure how that is very complicated to figure out and observe for yourself.

[prophet]

There is no such thing as white. Your premise is faulty, and therefore everything you conclude is and will continue to be invariably wrong.
You obviously have a taxonomic problem that is not shared by the most important people who share your views on race.

The following people do not agree with you. They know there is a White Race, and they state very clearly their plans for it:

"We have an aging white America ... They are dying ...We have got to eliminate the gringo, and what I mean by that is if the worst comes to the worst, we have got to kill him.".... Professor Jose Angel Gutierrez, University of Texas

"Remember 187--proposition to deny taxpayer funds for services to non-citizens--was the last gasp of white America in California." -- Art Torres, Chairman of the California Democratic Party

"California is going to be a Hispanic state. Anyone who doesn't like it should leave." -- Mario Obledo, California Coalition of Hispanic Organizations and California State Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare under Governor Jerry Brown,

“Civil rights laws were not passed to protect the rights of white men and do not apply to them.”--- Mary Frances Berry, Chairman, US Commission on Civil Rights.

When I quote their words here, I am called "Inflammatory.":mad:

These statements are not from some anonymous poster on the internet. They are from people who have the poser to inflict real damage on the objects of their racial hatreds.

If you will take the time to go here: http://judiciary.senate.gov/hearings/hearing.cfm?id=3943 you can hear the man who has the power to send folks to the gulag hold forth on the subject.

In response to questions from Senators Sessions and Coburn, the Attorney General of the United States made it clear that his new "Hate law" would NOT protect White men. Holder made it clear that if a white Gentile male, including a serviceman or police officer, was the victim of a violent hate crime by any minority he would have to find redress from traditional law. Listen here, at 58.30-61 minutes (Sessions) and 71.30-5 minutes (Coburn).

It would be great if those in power had the same difficulty you have in identifying us, but, unfortunately for us, they have no such problem.

If there is a problem of "Racists"here, it is that many posters share the views of those who now hold government power, and hurl epithets at anyone who cites their attacks on the life, liberty and property of the unfavored group.

This forum is supposed to be about liberty. I am a member of a racial group that is
now a minority in my state(Texas). The leaders of the group that constitutes the next largest cohort---actually larger if illegal invaders are counted, has made it crystal clear that they intend to deprive me and my posterity of the liberty that our founders bequeathed me, and a forum ostensibly dedicated to the preservation of liberty says that any reference to the threat is "Inflammatory." Beam me up!

[Joseph de Maistre]

There is no such thing as white.

This is like Nathan Hale saying "there is no such thing as an American" while he was being strung up by the British. Somehow, I don't think that statement would have been a very memorable pronouncement from the gallows.

If that makes you feel good about yourself while you're being completely dispossessed, great - I find it to be a relatively impotent response to these attacks on our liberties. Certainly, it is a response not in keeping with the traditions of western man going back two thousand years.

I know I sure as hell won't stand for it. And I know a long line of Americans wouldn't have allowed this either. I stand with the Founders.

[Met Income]

This is like Nathan Hale saying "there is no such thing as an American" while he was being strung up by the British. Somehow, I don't think that statement would have been a very memorable pronouncement from the gallows.

If that makes you feel good about yourself while you're being completely dispossessed, great - I find it to be a relatively impotent response to these attacks on our liberties. Certainly, it is a response not in keeping with the traditions of western man going back two thousand years.

I know I sure as hell won't stand for it. And I know a long line of Americans wouldn't have allowed this either. I stand with the Founders.

I possess myself. My ancestors don't possess me.

[Joseph de Maistre]

My ancestors don't possess me.

"Before you tear down a wall, learn why it was built in the first place."

Our ancestors built walls for an express purpose, and some of us think we know why they did, but we really do not. I could sit here and tear down those walls by saying that my ancestors were simply no-good bigots, and I know better than they did. I have all the answers. And the answer is: there is no such thing as nation. Borders are fake lines. And I am nothing more than who I wish to be.

Famously, Aeneas escapes Troy with his father Anchises on his back and his son Ascanius by his side.

This act symbolized to Romans the importance of one's ancestors, and paying homage to them - it wasn't simply an act of saving his father. The Romans had house gods that represented their ancestors - they worshipped them.

This is a strong vein in western history, that has more recently been demolished by agents of the Left. We owe something to our ancestors.

[Electric Church]

genuinely dislike collectivist judgments in general

Here's my collective judgement:

Vast majority of Ron Paul supporters (99.99999999%) are like Ron Paul: they are not racists

However, after viewing all the racist threads and racist comments I've come to the conclusion that this forum is administered by racists, moderated by racists and infested with racists.

It would give me pleasure to be banned from a racist forum for making such a claim.

[Joseph de Maistre]

Here's my collective judgement:

Vast majority of Ron Paul supporters (99.99999999%) are like Ron Paul: they are not racists

Did Rasmussen give you that figure?

[ladyjade3]

Haiti needs to stop being gutted by people like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Bertrand_Aristide

Haiti would be better off with NO leaders than leaders like this.

[Dunedain]

Vast majority of Ron Paul supporters (99.99999999%) are like Ron Paul: they are not racists


Racist is in the eye of the beholder. Ron Paul is the leader of a neo-KKK movement according to the media. You are a racist simply for posting here in their eyes.

Please explain why you aren't racist.

[BlackTerrel]

It's always some excuse or another. African-Americans say they are living in poverty because they were in slavery for most of their existence here, despite opportunity given to them afterward. Haitians don't have this excuse, they killed all the whites and took their country for themselves. They had every opportunity to create a prosperous nation, but have simply failed to do so.

So what is the reason for the poverty then? Explain your view.

[BlackTerrel]

If these racists would have said things like this about Jews, especially if an earthquake in Israel just killed 50,000 of them, they would have been banned after one post. But they've been spewing this vile for days.

This says a lot about this entire forum, don't it?

The same posters you're talking about make negative comments about Jews all the time. Read some of their posting history.

[Dunedain]

So what is the reason for the poverty then? Explain your view.

Yes, why can't people explain Haitian poverty without resorting to racial name calling like the white-man-a-keeping-us-down type B.S. you NAACP types are always pushing. I would like to hear from some Haitian supports explain what is wrong with putting some seeds in the best soil in the Caribbean and growing some plants.

But of course no rationale explaination can be expected.

[Joseph de Maistre]

I would like to hear from some Haitians and Haitia lovers explain what is wrong with putting some seeds in the best soil in the Caribbean and growing some plants.

Seeds in soil?

That's just the white privilege talking. Come back to us after you've read this book:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/95/AutobiographyOfMalcolmX.JPG

Then you'll understand why the Haitians can't put seeds into soil.

:D

[Danke]

Being invaded this close to MLK? Nah, not a coincidence. :)

It does seem to have been an invasions here on RPFs, IMO.

[Dunedain]

Seeds in soil?

That's just the white privilege talking. Come back to us after you've read this book:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/95/AutobiographyOfMalcolmX.JPG

Then you'll understand why the Haitians can't put seeds into soil.

:D

Right. Anything a minority group fails at is caused by white racism. Anything a minority group succeeds at is caused by their inherent abilities.

[Ricky201]

It does seem to have been an invasions here on RPFs, IMO.

Some of their members have been openly exposed in other threads I believe and one of their members actually got banned and made a comment about it on the Stormfront's message boards.

So yah...this was planned.

[Dieseler]

Haiti needs 100 Million Dollars worth of tickets to France.

[Oyate]

There are several tactics on display here.

1. The "triangulation tactic". Multiple profiles chiming in, reinforcing the same thread. Note how many of these are new posters.

2. Switchroo tactic. When confronted by facts, introduce new topics.

3. Ad-homs: swtich to attacking the poster personally.

4. Diversionary tactics: change the topic. Notice how a thread on Haiti has become a discussion of race?

5. Injection. Sway the topic. In this case into race.

6. Implication: this thread is now about race on a board that has resolved these issues (never had them to begin with, we are diverse by definition, freedom if freeee) but they will use THEIR OWN MATERIAL to accuse us of being racist.

Resist them brothers and sisters and be not afraid to call them what they are: infiltrators.

"Among these are things that are hateful unto Yah: liars and sowers of discontent among brethren."

[Oyate]

To you infiltrators, to you preachers of hate, no matter how you hide behind your words and seek to twist those of other posters here, know that I reject you, I identify you as what you are: sowers of discontent among brethren, liars, preachers of hate and I stand against you categorically. I do not care what you do from here, I do not care how many you find to stand against me, I resist you in body and in mind and in spirit. Always will, always have. Where you come to tear the people I protect down, you will find me in ready opposition. In word and deed. Any time, any place.

But who are you to intrude on this place of introspection, where the 3VOl reigns supreme?

Have you ever in your life put on a Ron Paul R3VOlUTION t-shirt and looked at yourself in the mirror?

The way we spell 3VOl is mirror-writing. You are supposed to see LOVE looking back at you. Yes, you. All of you.

Where did you fall off the bus?

Get up, get over it, get back on. There's still room in the human race. Join it.

[Joseph de Maistre]

Have you ever in your life put on a Ron Paul R3VOlUTION t-shirt and looked at yourself in the mirror?

No, I didn't like that t-shirt.

I have the "Ron Paul 2008 - Hope for America" t-shirt.

Ignoring whatever it is that you're talking about in this post, I thought the "LOVE" thing was a tad misplaced and didn't really fit with what RP is talking about. I mean, what does "LOVE" have to do with small government? "LOVE" has more liberal connotations - when you look at RP, you don't think peace, love and marijuana.

At least I don't.

[nbhadja]

:rolleyes: And yet the much of the Carribean has had higher GDP growth then the U.S. Go figure.

http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Caribbean/Bahamas/gdp-per-capita-growth-5-years

That's misleading because those countries have a lot smaller GDP's meaning it is easier to have larger growth GDP percentages than countries with big GDP's like the US.

[denison]

The lesson is an important one: Haiti has remained poor because its people never discovered any philosophy of freedom. One of the reasons the earthquake proved so devastating was the poor construction of many of its buildings. Societies that do not discover freedom, simply never develop an infrastructure capable of withstanding assaults from nature of this magnitude. They never release the natural creativity and enterprise that alone builds strength — whether that strength be found in strong families or resilient buildings or stable infrastructure. Most therefore remain at a subsistence level.
...

But Haiti won’t ever prosper from its people simply being given things. Fortunately, the situation in that country will gradually stabilize during the days and weeks ahead. Haitians, having received aid from all over the world, will begin to rebuild. Then, they will have a decision to make. Do they continue as they have in the past? If the continue on unchanged, they will remain poor and possibly dependent on others, and at some point in the future, either another earthquake or some other disaster such as a hurricane will again devastate their population.



These paragraphs explain it well.

How does he explain Saudi Arabia, or the US during slavery. Those were not freedom loving societies. But they were/are very prosperous and wealthy. Plenty of communuist/socialist societies have had prosperity, success and wealth.


In the end I think it comes done to infrastructure and economy. They need free trade and heavy development of their infrastructure. In the mean time the world needs to stop giving them handouts and let them stand on their own.

[Oyate]

No, I didn't like that t-shirt.

Why hello new poster! Somehow I an not surprised you did not like that t-shirt. That is unfortunate for you because we exported them world-wide. I am a R3VOlUTIONARY. That is my "faction".


I have the "Ron Paul 2008 - Hope for America" t-shirt.

Love those. I got a few of those. I believe "we" are "hope for America".


Ignoring whatever it is that you're talking about in this post,

Typical. Continue.


I thought the "LOVE" thing was a tad misplaced and didn't really fit with what RP is talking about.

So you have not love. I'm feeling it loud and clear. You are not surprising me so far. And we have had numerous of you new posters saying the same thing all the sudden so again, no shock here. Seen you all before.


I mean, what does "LOVE" have to do with small government?

One could say that all self-respect or devotion or love stems from our recognition that we are all endowed by our creator with certain rights. This is a recognition of our essential sanctity. All recognition of sanctity in our hearts is tied to our innermost being which is created in love. For the bible says that we are all created in His image.


"LOVE" has more liberal connotations -

If love is the exclusive domain of liberals, what does that leave conservatives? Screw you bra, I am a man of love.


when you look at RP, you don't think peace, love and marijuana.

Cheap shot you little pussy. Peace and love are objectives. Your personality would not mix among the fires in my park. Tie peace and love to marijuana will you? What have you to bring to peace and love and caring about the people? Even yours?

What did you have for dinner tonight? In the presence of my people I ate spaghetti, baked potatoes, sweet potatoes, hot chocolate, carrots and beer. And we still got more beer. And more fire wood.


At least I don't.

No, I don't imagine you have.

[dr. hfn]

haiti needs to die and get a new name

[denison]

benevolent colonialism.....

I think the moors need to recolonize italy. that would be a good start. :rolleyes:


If white society is so much better than why is it on the verge of collapse now. why are most americans(whites included) stupid enough to keep electing the same crooks over and over again? why are most obese slobs, who want nothing more than gubbermint handouts?


Why is Europe overrun by socialist ideologies? Surely they can't be that stupid.

This forum is just filled with freedom loving bigots. :rolleyes:

[denison]

no difference between races?

ever watch the 100 and 200 meter races in the Olympics? See any white boys in em at all?

There's also a difference between genders. Men are smarter than women. So leave the heavy disscusion to men and go make me a sammich. :D

[Vessol]

this forum seems to be about 90% trolls these days

[denison]

The whole Haiti situation is a plague in the making. We should be defending ourselves from possible outbreak instead of helping them.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,583156,00.html

Hopefully the rest of the world says the same thing to America once the dollar collapses. Nothing like a good taste of your own medicine.

[torchbearer]

and here i thought all the racist freaks knew each other.
obviously this isn't a group from stormfront, but rather a bunch of different douches coming from different douche sites.

[Vessol]

While I am iffy on the government providing aid, I am very much behind the idea of a private enterprise taking private donations in order to provide temporary aid for the Haitian's. I myself donated 50$ earlier today for the Red Cross, I think everyone should do the same if they have any extra money to spare.

[Joseph de Maistre]

One could say that all self-respect or devotion or love stems from our recognition that we are all endowed by our creator with certain rights. This is a recognition of our essential sanctity. All recognition of sanctity in our hearts is tied to our innermost being which is created in love. For the bible says that we are all created in His image.

Erhm...what does this have to do with Ron Paul t-shirts?


If love is the exclusive domain of liberals, what does that leave conservatives? Screw you bra, I am a man of love.

"Screw you"...?


Cheap shot you little pussy. Peace and love are objectives. Your personality would not mix among the fires in my park. Tie peace and love to marijuana will you? What have you to bring to peace and love and caring about the people? Even yours?

Haha! This speaks for itself.

This is one of the funniest posts I've ever read.


What did you have for dinner tonight? In the presence of my people I ate spaghetti, baked potatoes, sweet potatoes, hot chocolate, carrots and beer. And we still got more beer. And more fire wood.

Hahaha! And more fire wood? WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

You absolutely smoked marijuana tonight. There is no other possible reason for the content of your post.

[Oyate]

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

You absolutely smoked marijuana tonight. There is no other possible reason for the content of your post.

Naw, we got you guys pinned. You are isolated and identified. You do not fit in here. Your ideas have no traction here.

[Joseph de Maistre]

Naw, we got you guys pinned. You are isolated and identified. You do not fit in here. Your ideas have no traction here.

Last time I checked, I fit in pretty well.

When I talk to your average RP supporter, they agree with most of what I say. So, I think my ideas do have traction here.

I think your posts don't have any traction in logic or common sense.

[Vessol]

No one fits or doesn't fit in here. Everyone differs just slightly in their views. It's the core ideas that really matter IMO.

[fj45lvr]

There are plenty here who get away daily with bashing Jewish people. I've made my own personal pleas to curb such behaviour. Time will tell how it all plays out.

I don't go to "hot topics" much to read the latest but I think that it could be a coincidence, in that in bashing the FED, Neo-cons, Bankers, tyrannical states etc. that many of the "players" happen to be the ones that have the "anti-liberty" ideas we are fighting against....the fact that many of these people are jewish too is a coincidence but not a REASON unto itself.


As far as Haiti is concerned I wonder how many of the Caribbean Islands have a high amount of re-inforcing steel (re-bar) in the building construction??? Being on an Island and having to ship in so many things, they are at a big competitive disadvantage to afford many things.....

maybe "LIBERTY" is the choice made to not be "forced" to build to certain "codes" by government regulations??? and the people choose what is less expensive and they are suffering the consequences of that decision they had the liberty to make for themselves.

[Vessol]

Cuba, while not even close to a state I support, I believe in many cities has steel reinforced buildings for hurricanes and what not in many of their cities, especially Havana. Plus the Virgin Islands and many other islands where the rich dwell.

[Oyate]

What amazes me is though the ages, the thugs think their techniques are new.

Infiltration, divide and conquer, lies, deciet, bullery, butchery, debauchery, all the thugs think they are so new and different. Behold the power of the dick.

Or you could call it "behold the destructive power of young men with no training and bad up-bringing". Or translate it into any language, it's always basically the same. Jerks, idiots or young men who don't get to date respectable daughters and forever are a bane to their people, like predators or in a word, criminals.

Now in this case we have sowers of discontent among brethren, a true forked-tongue serpent if there ever was one. Buried in their multiple threads are every component of racist ideology, it's all here, to the point where they identified me as being multi-racial by nature of my posts. Dunedain flat out admitted his mission on the boards was racially motivated.

These guys have steered a post on Haiti into a referendum on racism. Not hard to do in a forum that entertains all ideas.

Explain more about your philosophy, gentlemen and tie in that thread about how great Israel is like you did last night. And I look forward to hearing your viewpoints spread out across a dozen or so fake profiles whom have little post history but yet suddenly have opinions.

Fakers.

[Joseph de Maistre]

I know a guy who does relief work in Haiti and he pointed out that their building codes are non-existent. Their stairs are all laid out differently. Some stairs are steep, some are shallow.

The buildings didn't stand a chance.

If they could have built stronger buildings, they would have. But they don't have the resources for it.

[fj45lvr]

I know a guy who does relief work in Haiti and he pointed out that their building codes are non-existent. Their stairs are all laid out differently. Some stairs are steep, some are shallow.

The buildings didn't stand a chance.

If they could have built stronger buildings, they would have. But they don't have the resources for it.


I would love the place that didn't have a government building code, and I believe that people CAN build correctly if they apply the simplest effort to EDUCATE themselves as to what are proper methods to be safe (this does NOT take a government).

For whatever reasons (ignorance or flat out refusal) they must of chosen to go light on re-bar and now they are paying for it.

[Dieseler]

Haiti needs rebar.
We should air drop 100 million dollars worth on their end of the island.

[Joseph de Maistre]

Haiti needs rebar.
We should air drop 100 million dollars worth on their end of the island.

Drop $100 million worth of steel rods on Port-au-Prince right now?

Talk about kicking a man when he's down! :D

[Dieseler]

Drop $100 million worth of steel rods on Port-au-Prince right now?

Talk about kicking a man when he's down! :D

You're right.
They're gonna need some concrete to.
So split the difference between the two and throw in the air drop for free.

[Oyate]

Amazing. Not one of you Stormfronters can make a cogent analysis of the history.

Dunedain, your name refers to a fiction but it's at least an honourable fiction. I'm really quite ashamed of you. Forget the little bunch of glittering pansies you have gathered about you now, I'm disappointed in you.

Well, little kittens, I have made my analysis, offered material and positive ways to support and am prepared to move on. And myself and several others have revealed your racist agenda. What have you accomplished?

[Joseph de Maistre]

Amazing. Not one of you Stormfronters can make a cogent analysis of the history.

Dunedain, your name refers to a fiction but it's at least an honourable fiction. I'm really quite ashamed of you. Forget the little bunch of glittering pansies you have gathered about you now, I'm disappointed in you.

Well, little kittens, I have made my analysis, offered material and positive ways to support and am prepared to move on. And myself and several others have revealed your racist agenda. What have you accomplished?

Are you still talking? :D

[Oyate]

Are you still talking? :D

Are we still defending and accepting racists? Especially in the context of Haiti which has become a test-case for world banker dominionship?

And will the detractors of Haiti, whom have shown themselves to be race and cultural supremacists continue to align themselves with the interests of world bankers (Citibank in particular in this case) on these very forums uncontested?

I think not. I think not.

[Joseph de Maistre]

Are we still defending and accepting racists? Especially in the context of Haiti which has become a test-case for world banker dominionship?

When Ron Paul claims that Haitians need to adopt a sound currency and support free markets, I want to slap him on the back and say, "dammit Ron, YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS."

These folks need considerably more help than sound currency and free markets. They are suffering from a spiritual poverty. No amount of free trade capitalism will solve their problems until they are capable of lifting themselves up, establishing a vision for their lives, and putting in a full day's work.

You can't simply give that to someone. They need to do it for themselves. When Italy was rocked by a 6.3 earthquake, they made it out just fine. They had the resolve to get back up, and start working again.

Haiti was doomed before the earthquake ever came - by their own choosing.

[BlackTerrel]

and here i thought all the racist freaks knew each other.
obviously this isn't a group from stormfront, but rather a bunch of different douches coming from different douche sites.

I believe most of them came from here.

http://www.hotchickswithdouchebags.com/

I wish they would have brought the hot chicks... but alas... it is just the douchebags.

[Gideon]

This Haitian Bailout issue is neither one of ethnicity nor of gender.

It is simply about FRNs and Debt.

Specifically, the money which a reckless executive and an unaccountable Congress have plundered and pledged on my behalf.

The decision to aid Haiti to the tune of $100 MegaFRNs was made without my consent, and therefore, I have no need to commit further aid from what personal assets remain on my account.

There was a time in our nation's history, that such acts of "charity" would have cost an incumbent re-election, but not so in today's United Socialist States.

Davy Crockett was one such elected representative who learned a hard lesson, and because he listened to his constituency, never made that mistake again.

What part of "Not Yours to Give (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig4/ellis1.html)," is so difficult for contemporary "representatives" to comprehend?

Whoops!
I forgot that the vast majority of our Congress-crooks are whores and pimps, while the realm of public servitude is generously sprinkled with money-sucking leaches, and self-serving sycophants.

[Electric Church]

...but rather a bunch of different douches coming from different douche sites.

They come from here and they come from there. The only difference in political community websites is the name of the site for the purpose of attracting the total political spectrum. But the same gang runs them all: Something that's too easy to accomplish in the faceless online world.

[Met Income]

Last time I checked, I fit in pretty well.

When I talk to your average RP supporter, they agree with most of what I say. So, I think my ideas do have traction here.
.

link?

[Kludge]

link?

You just linked to it.

[Dieseler]

Send more machetes.
and crushed UN workers.

[Met Income]

"Before you tear down a wall, learn why it was built in the first place."

Our ancestors built walls for an express purpose, and some of us think we know why they did, but we really do not. I could sit here and tear down those walls by saying that my ancestors were simply no-good bigots, and I know better than they did. I have all the answers. And the answer is: there is no such thing as nation. Borders are fake lines. And I am nothing more than who I wish to be.

Famously, Aeneas escapes Troy with his father Anchises on his back and his son Ascanius by his side.

This act symbolized to Romans the importance of one's ancestors, and paying homage to them - it wasn't simply an act of saving his father. The Romans had house gods that represented their ancestors - they worshipped them.

This is a strong vein in western history, that has more recently been demolished by agents of the Left. We owe something to our ancestors.

Ideas are important, not people. People put forward ideas - some good, some not so good. Putting your eggs in one basket (ie a hero) will leave you disappointed. The Founding Fathers made tremendous progress, but they didn't take us all the way to freedom. That's up to us. As we know, they didn't live or ascribe to complete freedom.

In football terms, they took us to the Red Zone, now we gotta punch it in. A field goal aint gonna cut it. The other team's offense is too powerful.

[catdd]

They need the same thing we need; a sound economic policy for the long term.

[torchbearer]

:(

[Bruno]

Last time I checked, I fit in pretty well.

When I talk to your average RP supporter, they agree with most of what I say. So, I think my ideas do have traction here.



Joseph de Maistre
Banned

Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 81

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y284/fullmulletalchemist/nelson_ha_ha.jpg

[Dforkus]

What they need long term isn't food or water (although there's no denying they need that in the here and now), but a fundamental restructuring of their entire civil-consciousness. There just isn't any broad expectation ( and not without reason) of a society that isn't corrupt and dysfunctional, and government that serves its own needs, by whatever means necessary, with no input from, and no regard to, the people.

And also , It's true that even among the people, there isn't a lot of respect for law and order, and there isn't a sense that the key to success is working hard and playing by the rules. Yah, we can stand back and "tsk, tsk" that all we want, but just why the hell should they have those values? Nothing in their enitire messed-up history has showed it to be the case.
How do you change that? No easy answer to that one. At the very least, they have finally been blessed with a leader who isn't an abject sociopath, so thats a start, and microlending/micro-investment strategies were bearing some fruit... Hopefully that all doesn't unravel..

I suggest before make some kind of broad-based pontification about "those people" from the comfort of your keyboard, one should at least attempt to be somewhat unignorant of the history, and very ugly history, of Haiti... wikipedia is a nice place to start... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiti#History

as to our role in Haiti...:
"U.S. Invasion and Occupation of Haiti, 1915-34

Under interventionist policies of the early 20th century, President Woodrow Wilson sent the United States Marines into Haiti to restore order and maintain political and economic stability in the Caribbean after the assassination of the Haitian President in July of 1915. This occupation continued until 1934.

The United States Government had been interested in Haiti for decades prior to its occupation. As a potential naval base for the United States and other imperialist powers, Haiti?s stability was of great interest to U.S. diplomatic and defense officials who feared instability might result in foreign rule of Haiti. In 1868, President Andrew Johnson suggested the annexation of the island of Hispaniola, made up of Haiti and the Dominican Republic, to secure a U.S. defensive and economic stake in the West Indies. From 1889 to 1891, Secretary of State James Blaine unsuccessfully sought a lease of Mole-Saint Nicolas, a city on Haiti?s northern coast strategically located for a naval base. In 1910 President William Howard Taft granted Haiti a large loan in hopes that Haiti could pay off its international debt, thus lessening foreign influence. The attempt proved futile due to the enormity of the debt and the internal instability of the country.

France, as the former colonizer of Haiti, retained strong economic and diplomatic ties with the government there. In the 1824 Franco-Haitian agreement, France agreed to recognize Haitian independence if Haiti paid a large indemnity. This kept Haiti in a constant state of debt and put France in a position of power over Haiti?s trade and finances.

Although unhappy about Haiti?s close connection to France, policymakers in the United States were more concerned about increased German activity and influence in the country. In the beginning of the 20th century German presence in Haiti increased as German merchants began establishing trading branches in Haiti, quickly dominating commercial business in the area. German men married Haitian women to get around laws denying foreigners land ownership and established roots in the Haitian community. The United States considered Germany its chief rival in the Caribbean, and feared German control of Haiti would give them a powerful advantage in the area.

Increased instability in Haiti in the years before 1915 led to heightened action by the United States to deter foreign influence. Between 1911 and 1915, seven presidents were assassinated or overthrown in Haiti, increasing U.S. policymakers? fear of foreign intervention. In 1914, the Wilson Administration sent marines into Haiti who removed $500,000 from the Haitian National Bank in December of 1914 for safe-keeping in New York, thus giving the U.S. control of the bank. In 1915, Haitian president Jean Vilbrun Guillaume Sam was assassinated and the situation in Haiti quickly became unstable. In response, President Wilson sent the U.S. Marines to Haiti, claiming the invasion was an attempt to prevent anarchy. In reality the Wilson administration was protecting U.S. assets in the area and preventing a possible German invasion.

The invasion ended with the Haitian-American Treaty of 1915. The articles of this agreement created a Haitian gendarmerie, essentially a military force made up of Americans and Haitians and controlled by the U.S. marines. The United States gained complete control over Haitian finances, and the right to intervene in Haiti whenever the U.S. Government deemed necessary. The U.S. Government also forced the election of a new pro-American President, Philippe Sudr? Dartiguenave, by the Haitian legislature in August of 1915. The selection of a President that did not represent the choice of the Haitian populace increased unrest in Haiti.

Following the successful manipulation of the 1915 elections, the Wilson Administration attempted to strong-arm the Haitian legislature into adopting a new constitution in 1917. This constitution allowed foreign land ownership, which had been outlawed since the Haitian Revolution as a way to prevent foreign control of the country. The legislature was extremely reluctant to change the long-standing law and rejected the new constitution. Law-makers began drafting a new anti-American constitution, but the United States forced President Dartiguenave dissolve the legislature, which did not meet again until 1929.

Some of the Gendarmerie?s more unpopular policies?including racial segregation, press censorship and forced labor?led to a peasant rebellion from 1919 to 1920. The U.S. Senate sent an investigative committee into Haiti in 1921 to examine claims of abuse, and subsequently the U.S. Senate reorganized and centralized power in Haiti. After the reorganization, Haiti remained fairly stable and a select group achieved economic prosperity, though most Haitians remained in poverty.

In 1929, a series of strikes and uprisings led the United States to begin withdrawal from Haiti. In 1930, U.S. officials began training Haitian officials to take control of the government. In 1934, the United States, in concert with President Franklin D. Roosevelt?s Good Neighbor Policy, officially withdrew from Haiti while retaining economic connections.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/wwi/88275.htm" -