30,000 soldiers Afghan surge will be rerouted to Haiti?

[Liberty Star]

Even if 100K or more people have been killed in tragic Haiti quake, this will be very significant move if what heard through grapevine is true. Currently US Coast guard from Miami and other military is helping with rescue in Haiti, some are asking Obama to appoint a military general to oversee Haiti mission and reroute planned 30K military Afghan surge to Haiti immediately.

Not confirmed yet but if Obama mobilized 30K troops planned for Afghanistan to head to Haiti instead, would you support it?

[LittleLightShining]

Yes.

[Mini-Me]

Can't we just keep them home?

However, if the choices are between occupying Afghanistan and doing humanitarian [?] work in Haiti, it's a tough call. On one hand, it would certainly be more productive and moral of the military to build things and such in Haiti than kill people and occupy Afghanistan. However, US soldiers in Haiti will likely harm more than help the situation, and they'd likely be used to impose a police state to "keep the peace"...and it wouldn't be good to give yet another country another reason to hate us. In addition, after going to Haiti, are we going to still send 30,000 to Afghanistan anyway? In that case, it would also require yet more government extortion of taxpayers to tack on a supposed humanitarian mission in front of that.

It's like that "youmustchoose.com" website, where you're given two bad options, and you're not allowed to pick "neither." ;)

[Dieseler]

They really don't need a great number of men trained to kill and occupy, sure they will need some security for what they really need though which is humanitarian aide and workers trained in setting up refugee camps, infrastructure repair and people to distribute charitable contributions.

If Obama were to reroute 30k men with a military General I would assume they were taking advantage of Haiti's horrid situation and were in the process of nation building as opposed to what they should be doing.

[Liberty Star]

This is only what is in news so far:


January 13, 2010

U.S. Military May Deploy Troops in Haiti

(AP/Matt Marek/American Red Cross) Officials are "very seriously looking at" sending U.S. troops into Haiti for security purposes, U.S. Southern Command General Douglas Fraser told reporters Wednesday.



Obama promises all-out relief effort in Haiti

AP – Obama calls reports from Haiti 'Truly heart-Wrenching'

By MATTHEW LEE and JULIE PACE, Associated Press Writers Matthew Lee And Julie Pace, Associated Press Writers – 3 mins ago

WASHINGTON – U.S. officials laid out a massive military response to the Haiti earthquake Wednesday, saying that ships, helicopters, transport planes and a 2,000-member Marine unit were either on the way or likely to begin moving soon.

A State Department official said the U.S. was checking into reports of at least three possible deaths of Americans in Haiti. Department Spokesman P.J. Crowley added that only 100 of the estimated 45,000 Americans living in Haiti had been able to communicate with U.S. officials and verify they were safe and sound.

Gen. Douglas Fraser, head of U.S. Southern Command, said one of the U.S. Navy's large amphibious ships was likely to head to Haiti with a Marine expeditionary unit aboard. Fraser said other U.S. military forces were on alert, including a brigade, which includes about 3,500 troops.

[LittleLightShining]

I would rather see my neighbors who are in the VT National Guard go to Haiti than Afghanistan.

[Zippyjuan]

The aircraft carrier USS Carl Vinson and its group is on its way from being re-fueled and refurbished in Norfolk on its way to its base in San Diego. It is being diverted to Haiti to help out there. If the Port Au Prince Airport is damaged, supples can be landed on its deck and shipped to land. They stopped in Florida to pick up emergency supplies for Haiti.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Military/2010/0113/US-sends-aircraft-carrier-to-help-with-Haiti-earthquake-damage

[Liberty Star]

Supply ships will help, however there is very large number of people still trapped in collapsed structures for which Haiti has neirher rescue personnel nor needed gear. That's what boots on the ground are being contemplated for I think.

[jclay2]

I can't believe some of you guys are even talking about this! The answer is no. We don't need any more foreign interventions. I don't care what their intentions are, it never bodes well for us or the people of the countries we "help". Lets stop the madness and not even give the statist the concession of considering any foreign interventions.

[Zippyjuan]

It is not a millitary intervention- it is a humanitarian effort. If your town and home were devistated by a large earthquake you would probably be grateful for the help.

[Danke]

If the Port Au Prince Airport is damaged, supples can be landed on its deck and shipped to land.


lol

[polomertz]

It is not a millitary intervention- it is a humanitarian effort. If your town and home were devistated by a large earthquake you would probably be grateful for the help.

True, unless they brought their guns.

[Liberty Star]

True, unless they brought their guns.

When military went on rescue mission when Katrina hit, they probably did not bring guns. Any humanitarian mission would be same way.

[Johnnybags]

put in puppets all over and then hand the slave labor to corporate America. Er, secure it I mean. Our soldiers will love Cite Soleil.




http://www.wunrn.com/news/2008/12_08/12_22_08/122208_haiti_files/image001.jpg

[stilltrying]

Did Haiti even ask for 30,000 American troops? Or are we the empire who is telling them they are getting 30,000 troops? This is a sovereign country right? Why not 30,000 State Dept. employees? Oh I see get our boys and girls in the UN Peacekeeping mind, the global force for good, eh. Keeping the peace with guns? You dont do what I say you are breaking the peace therefore I may and can use my weapon against you.

You are a sovereign citizen of Haiti but since I am here under the humanitarian peacekeeping mission you must do as I says the general to the enlistees to the citizens.

[Liberty Star]

American-Haitians with families there are also lobbying for rescue effort, and this may be a factor too:


A State Department official said the U.S. was checking into reports of at least three possible deaths of Americans in Haiti. Department Spokesman P.J. Crowley added that only 100 of the estimated 45,000 Americans living in Haiti had been able to communicate with U.S. officials and verify they were safe and sound.

[pcosmar]

NO way.
Do you all forget Somalia? (humanitarian aid)??
Do you remember Jean-Bertrand Aristide? (puppet government)?

The best thing to do with Haiti is stay far away from it.

[BenIsForRon]

Whatever, I know bad things can come from it, but America has so much other shit on its plate, I don't think we're going to be doing anything but serious short term relief there.

So I will support this move, as long as we stay out of the law enforcement role.

[Mini-Me]

Whatever, I know bad things can come from it, but America has so much other shit on its plate, I don't think we're going to be doing anything but serious short term relief there.

So I will support this move, as long as we stay out of the law enforcement role.

Actually, I think that's exactly why we're going there...for "security."

[Kylie]

put in puppets all over and then hand the slave labor to corporate America. Er, secure it I mean. Our soldiers will love Cite Soleil.




http://www.wunrn.com/news/2008/12_08/12_22_08/122208_haiti_files/image001.jpg




Jesus.

What a shithole. Even before the earthquake. This is why the liberals still have backing. Because of places and little girls who look like this. It's pitiful to see that little one living that kind of life.

But then I think, who the hell am I to think I can make her life better by giving her more stuff? Decent stuff?

What a conundrum.

[MelissaWV]

NO way.
Do you all forget Somalia? (humanitarian aid)??
Do you remember Jean-Bertrand Aristide? (puppet government)?

The best thing to do with Haiti is stay far away from it.

As a Government, I strongly agree. There are numerous international organizations set up specifically to help out in situations like this. As I posted in another thread, the Government can "help" by giving a certain portion of its employees leave to go volunteer through one of those organizations. There are always problems after a crisis, with people who want to go help but can't because they wouldn't have a job to come back to. I'm sure there are certain ex-military, ex-firemen, ex-policemen, etc., who would love to go and would have valuable skills to offer. Businesses could be strongly encouraged (no force, though, for love of God) to allow certain people leave to go help. Businesses can also, obviously, make donations or match their employees' donations to the effort.

I disagree with the notion of pouring troops into the area. It's a terrible idea.

The big "crisis" that will loom after the dust clears from this, by the way, is one of immigration. The Dominican Republic has already stopped deporting Haitians back because they have decided it's basically a death sentence. They are also setting up hospitals to receive and treat earthquake victims. That's to be applauded for now, but what will happen eventually is that the Dominican Republic will be (more) overrun (than usual) with refugees. Those, in turn, make their way casually to Florida or Puerto Rico, where they become US citizens. You can be sure that people living near the Haiti/D.R. border have heard about the fact they will not be deported. Things were desperate already, and this is a chance for many to sneak over and try to better their lives and the lives of their children. Unintended consequences strike again.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

When military went on rescue mission when Katrina hit, they probably did not bring guns. Any humanitarian mission would be same way.

Tell that to the men and women of New Orleans and surrounding areas where they got their weapons confiscated at gun point.

If people want to help and donate to this worthy cause, then do it voluntarily. We are neither the worlds policeman or the worlds humanitarians. We are broke. We need to look inward and fix our own problems.

If the question posed is, would you rather 30,000 troops go to Haiti or Afghanistan, I think it's crystal clear: Haiti. It's a loaded question though, I would rather not have any troops overseas whatsoever. I think people here know my take on the military though. No standing army, no MIC, no temptation to use for political whims and dreams of empire.

[Liberty Star]

If the question posed is, would you rather 30,000 troops go to Haiti or Afghanistan, I think it's crystal clear: Haiti.

To keep discussion narrow, that was the only question here though. It was about "rerouting", not simply sending. You're right, it is bit of loaded question.
I already knew what the answer is on the ideal scenario.

[BenIsForRon]

Tell that to the men and women of New Orleans and surrounding areas where they got their weapons confiscated at gun point.

If people want to help and donate to this worthy cause, then do it voluntarily. We are neither the worlds policeman or the worlds humanitarians. We are broke. We need to look inward and fix our own problems.

If the question posed is, would you rather 30,000 troops go to Haiti or Afghanistan, I think it's crystal clear: Haiti. It's a loaded question though, I would rather not have any troops overseas whatsoever. I think people here know my take on the military though. No standing army, no MIC, no temptation to use for political whims and dreams of empire.

Can you think of anyone better equipped than the US military to deal with this right now? I think there is not, and that fact alone means the US military should help out in some capacity.

We're not living in your utopian world. The US army can save lives here, and if they are smart, avoid entangling alliances at the same time. Therefore, I see no real reason to stay completely hands off here.

[Lovecraftian4Paul]

This may sound harsh, but I really don't care what happens to Haiti one way or another. What happened to America First? We will always have an interventionist foreign policy if we can't get over the idea that we should be the first to rush to aid when something horrible happens, consequences be damned. And why is there a tremendous flurry to help foreigners instead of our own people who are losing their jobs and houses?

Let the rest of the world deal with it for once. Wishful thinking under this administration, but it is the policy that would be best. And individuals who are really that upset about the earthquake are always free to donate to private charities, or go down there themselves and help them. We do not need to blow huge amounts of money and send our military screaming in to help while our own country is sinking into poverty.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Can you think of anyone better equipped than the US military to deal with this right now? I think there is not, and that fact alone means the US military should help out in some capacity.

We're not living in your utopian world. The US army can save lives here, and if they are smart, avoid entangling alliances at the same time. Therefore, I see no real reason to stay completely hands off here.

I can think of many organizations better equipped to handle this situation. Red Cross, Earthquake/Rubble dog teams (Usually found in Fire Departments and PD's), Volunteer Firefighters, large private companies (Water, Food, etc.), etc.

The Military writ large aren't trained to do these kinds of missions. That's why whenever we are sent in to do Humanitarian missions things always go awry.

The only utopian people here are those who believe we can have standing armies and not reap the repercussions that always follows (Why do you think our founders put into the Constitution no standing armies?). Besides, we are BROKE. What part of BROKE do you not understand?

[BenIsForRon]

I can think of many organizations better equipped to handle this situation. Red Cross, Earthquake/Rubble dog teams (Usually found in Fire Departments and PD's), Volunteer Firefighters, large private companies (Water, Food, etc.), etc.

The Military writ large aren't trained to do these kinds of missions. That's why whenever we are sent in to do Humanitarian missions things always go awry.

The only utopian people here are those who believe we can have standing armies and not reap the repercussions that always follows (Why do you think our founders put into the Constitution no standing armies?). Besides, we are BROKE. What part of BROKE do you not understand?

I know we're broke, but sending 30,000 troops that already have their bags packed to Haiti isn't going to change anything, we'll still be really fucking broke. That's why we should help in whichever way will actually be helpful, like flying helicopters, driving trucks, medical supplies, and so on. I really don't think we're going to get bogged down there, much in the same way you didn't have anybody getting bogged down militarily after the big tsunami a few years back.

[Liberty Star]

Notorious Iraqi freedom supporter P Robertson on this issue:

YouTube - Pat Robertson Calls Quake 'blessing in Disguise' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5TE99sAbwM)

[Met Income]

I know we're broke, but sending 30,000 troops that already have their bags packed to Haiti isn't going to change anything, we'll still be really fucking broke. That's why we should help in whichever way will actually be helpful, like flying helicopters, driving trucks, medical supplies, and so on. I really don't think we're going to get bogged down there, much in the same way you didn't have anybody getting bogged down militarily after the big tsunami a few years back.

"I know we're broke but..."

Apparently, you don't.

[Zippyjuan]

Poorest country in the western hemisphere- and now they have even less.

[sofia]

they wanted to be independent from France and they killed all the white Frenchies.....

so they made their own bed.

Red Cross...donations...yes


government/miltary intervention?...not on my dime....which is about all i'll have left soon when Obama's inevitable hyperflation arrives

[prophet]

This may sound harsh, but I really don't care what happens to Haiti one way or another. What happened to America First? We will always have an interventionist foreign policy if we can't get over the idea that we should be the first to rush to aid when something horrible happens, consequences be damned. And why is there a tremendous flurry to help foreigners instead of our own people who are losing their jobs and houses?

Let the rest of the world deal with it for once. Wishful thinking under this administration, but it is the policy that would be best. And individuals who are really that upset about the earthquake are always free to donate to private charities, or go down there themselves and help them. We do not need to blow huge amounts of money and send our military screaming in to help while our own country is sinking into poverty.
Amen! it is a real wonderment to see that many so-called libertarians on this forum are actually Marxist egalitarians. Amazing!

[Nathan Hale]

We had a role in the Indonesia tsunami aid that went well.

http://www.defense.gov/home/features/tsunami/index.html

Yeah, we're broke and all, but a few ships going to a different place is small potatoes in the grand scheme of 700 bases in 130 countries and two undeclared wars. Let's fight THAT. At least these harmless humanitarian missions buy us a little, much needed, respect overseas.

[Dunedain]

What a craphole. That was 2008? What does it look like now I wonder.


http://www.wunrn.com/news/2008/12_08/12_22_08/122208_haiti_files/image001.jpg

[bunklocoempire]

Even if 100K or more people have been killed in tragic Haiti quake, this will be very significant move if what heard through grapevine is true. Currently US Coast guard from Miami and other military is helping with rescue in Haiti, some are asking Obama to appoint a military general to oversee Haiti mission and reroute planned 30K military Afghan surge to Haiti immediately.

Not confirmed yet but if Obama mobilized 30K troops planned for Afghanistan to head to Haiti instead, would you support it?

No.

How's 'bout I get to keep my wages tax free from January 'till August 12th or so. (The approximate 'cost of government')

With 7 1/2 extra months of wages I'd be more than happy to pitch in -myself- not through government.

Government to government 'giving'? NO. People to people giving? Yes.

Bunkloco

[Dieseler]

Charity is needed badly.

LiveLeak.com - Haiti Earthquake Caught on Tape (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0a6_1263431503)

[Met Income]

Charity is needed badly.

LiveLeak.com - Haiti Earthquake Caught on Tape (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0a6_1263431503)

Government isn't, though.

[Liberty Star]

No.

How's 'bout I get to keep my wages tax free from January 'till August 12th or so. (The approximate 'cost of government')

With 7 1/2 extra months of wages I'd be more than happy to pitch in -myself- not through government.

Government to government 'giving'? NO. People to people giving? Yes.

Bunkloco

Ok.

Cost of Aghan freedom war per surge soldier will be $1 million a year, cost of digging up trapped Haitian quake victims probably would be $10K per month. But I see your fiscally conservative point.

[Met Income]

Ok.

Cost of Aghan freedom war per surge soldier will be $1 million a year, cost of digging up trapped Haitian quake victims probably would be $10K per month. But I see your fiscally conservative point.

So it wouldn't take as many private donors to get the job done. Charity is good. Forced charity though legalized theft... not so good.

[Liberty Star]

So it wouldn't take as many private donors to get the job done. Charity is good. Forced charity though legalized theft... not so good.

I agree with that.

But question is does rerouting a mission from "kill" to "save" rise to level of charity or not.

[bunklocoempire]

Ok.

Cost of Aghan freedom war per surge soldier will be $1 million a year, cost of digging up trapped Haitian quake victims probably would be $10K per month. But I see your fiscally conservative point.

As our economy continues to tank, folk's charity will continue to become more local. I've got a farmer neighbor who took a big hit with his crop that we're currently looking out for (vog). I've also got more than a few relatives out of work on the mainland. :(

There's a ton of good (more) we could all be doing if we could keep our hands on our dough.



Bunkloco

[WorldonaString]

A terrible situation all around, lots of suffering. In a better world we would not be discussing using our military for such problems. Don't we remember FEMA and Katrina? Isn't this why Dr. Paul voted through clenched teeth against the federal aid to his own hurricane effected district? Even if sent, military who are currently training to kill terrorists, are not going to be as useful as investing that money and energy into true humanitarian organizations who face natural disasters on the daily.

Charity, private, and non-profit aid is what is needed for Haiti. Not government strongarming. Red Cross = Yes! Uncle Sam = not the best of ideas.

[Dieseler]

I'm not opposed to our military helping in the process of "Delivering" aide to this country.

The degree of pain which is being endured at this time in Haiti can not be underestimated as the situation is far worse than I even began to imagine last night.
They need Heavy Equipment now. I really don't know of any other organization in proximity to this island nation who could respond faster with the kind of equipment that is needed at this time than the U.S. Military.
Yes, I could equate rerouting a "kill mission" to a "save mission" charity at this time.
If it was my decision to make, they would be on their way now.

[jmdrake]

Jesus.

What a shithole. Even before the earthquake. This is why the liberals still have backing. Because of places and little girls who look like this. It's pitiful to see that little one living that kind of life.

But then I think, who the hell am I to think I can make her life better by giving her more stuff? Decent stuff?

What a conundrum.

Do you want a free market - pro liberty alternative?

http://www.villagebanking.org

http://www.kiva.org

Seriously, Kiva.org allows people to form lending clubs. The liberty community should look into this. Help people by helping them help themselves through capitalism. And do it without monstrosities like the World Bank and IMF.

[Met Income]

I'm not opposed to our military helping in the process of "Delivering" aide to this country.

The degree of pain which is being endured at this time in Haiti can not be underestimated as the situation is far worse than I even began to imagine last night.
They need Heavy Equipment now. I really don't know of any other organization in proximity to this island nation who could respond faster with the kind of equipment that is needed at this time than the U.S. Military.
Yes, I could equate rerouting a "kill mission" to a "save mission" charity at this time.
If it was my decision to make, they would be on their way now.

You have a right to donate your money to the cause. You do not have a right to donate OTHER people's money to the cause. It's not yours to give.

[Met Income]

I agree with that.

But question is does rerouting a mission from "kill" to "save" rise to level of charity or not.

In a vacuum, sure. But this just reinforces our record of using the military to solve the world's problems. Where does it end?

[Dieseler]

You have a right to donate your money to the cause. You do not have a right to donate OTHER people's money to the cause. It's not yours to give.

Fuck you, you little prick.

[jmdrake]

You have a right to donate your money to the cause. You do not have a right to donate OTHER people's money to the cause. It's not yours to give.

Money's already spent. This might even save some money if part of the Afgan troop deployment gets delayed.

[Liberty Star]

Dieseler, where did that come from?
Let's not make arguments here personal.



In a vacuum, sure. But this just reinforces our record of using the military to solve the world's problems. Where does it end?

It should end well before invading/occupying other countries for greed, revenge or propping up friendly dictators etc.

I agree with the principle you're advocating, but if we have to choose between Afghanistan vs Haiti ...

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Fuck you, you little prick.

http://mises.org/story/1129
http://mises.org/daily/3627


[Of President Grover Cleveland's 584 vetoes, that of the "Texas Seed Bill" (February 16, 1887) may be the most famous. Members of Congress wanted to help suffering farmers in the American West, but Cleveland rejected their bill, citing the limited mission of the general government and arguing that private charity and already-existing government programs should furnish the necessary aid.]
Stephen Grover Cleveland (1837–1908)To the House of Representatives:

I return without my approval House bill number 10203, entitled "An Act to enable the Commissioner of Agriculture to make a special distribution of seeds in drought-stricken counties of Texas, and making an appropriation therefor."

It is represented that a long-continued and extensive drought has existed in certain portions of the State of Texas, resulting in a failure of crops and consequent distress and destitution.

Though there has been some difference in statements concerning the extent of the people's needs in the localities thus affected, there seems to be no doubt that there has existed a condition calling for relief; and I am willing to believe that, notwithstanding the aid already furnished, a donation of seed grain to the farmers located in this region, to enable them to put in new crops, would serve to avert a continuance or return of an unfortunate blight.

And yet I feel obliged to withhold my approval of the plan as proposed by this bill, to indulge a benevolent and charitable sentiment through the appropriation of public funds for that purpose.

I can find no warrant for such an appropriation in the Constitution, and I do not believe that the power and duty of the general government ought to be extended to the relief of individual suffering which is in no manner properly related to the public service or benefit. A prevalent tendency to disregard the limited mission of this power and duty should, I think, be steadfastly resisted, to the end that the lesson should be constantly enforced that, though the people support the government, the government should not support the people.

The friendliness and charity of our countrymen can always be relied upon to relieve their fellow citizens in misfortune. This has been repeatedly and quite lately demonstrated. Federal aid in such cases encourages the expectation of paternal care on the part of the government and weakens the sturdiness of our national character, while it prevents the indulgence among our people of that kindly sentiment and conduct which strengthens the bonds of a common brotherhood.

It is within my personal knowledge that individual aid has, to some extent, already been extended to the sufferers mentioned in this bill. The failure of the proposed appropriation of $10,000 additional, to meet their remaining wants, will not necessarily result in continued distress if the emergency is fully made known to the people of the country.

It is here suggested that the Commissioner of Agriculture is annually directed to expend a large sum of money for the purchase, propagation, and distribution of seeds and other things of this description, two-thirds of which are, upon the request of senators, representatives, and delegates in Congress, supplied to them for distribution among their constituents.


The appropriation of the current year for this purpose is $100,000, and it will probably be no less in the appropriation for the ensuing year. I understand that a large quantity of grain is furnished for such distribution, and it is supposed that this free apportionment among their neighbors is a privilege which may be waived by our senators and representatives.

If sufficient of them should request the Commissioner of Agriculture to send their shares of the grain thus allowed them, to the suffering farmers of Texas, they might be enabled to sow their crops; the constituents, for whom in theory this grain is intended, could well bear the temporary deprivation, and the donors would experience the satisfaction attending deeds of charity.


No one has the right to steal from another for any reason. You would do well to heed these sage words.

[Pants]

The United States isn't the ONLY Superpower in the world. Why are we always stuck doing the grunt work? Where is Russia and China when a 3rd world country suffers a disaster? We help out any country in need, while the rest of the Superpowers do nothing but conspire against our Dollar to develop a new world currency.

[Bman]

I would rather keep the military at home, period, however it would be better to send them somewhere to save lives rather than take lives. My only question is what type of training do our military personnel have for this type of situation? I certainly don't want to occupy Haiti.

[LittleLightShining]

I'm not opposed to our military helping in the process of "Delivering" aide to this country.

The degree of pain which is being endured at this time in Haiti can not be underestimated as the situation is far worse than I even began to imagine last night.
They need Heavy Equipment now. I really don't know of any other organization in proximity to this island nation who could respond faster with the kind of equipment that is needed at this time than the U.S. Military.
Yes, I could equate rerouting a "kill mission" to a "save mission" charity at this time.
If it was my decision to make, they would be on their way now.I agree.


Money's already spent. This might even save some money if part of the Afgan troop deployment gets delayed.This, too.


I would rather keep the military at home, period, however it would be better to send them somewhere to save lives rather than take lives. My only question is what type of training do our military personnel have for this type of situation? I certainly don't want to occupy Haiti.I just read we're sending Marines. I think the National Guard is much more suited to this type of situation and I would (again) much rather see our Guard men and women rerouted from Afghanistan to Haiti.

[Stary Hickory]

NO way.
Do you all forget Somalia? (humanitarian aid)??
Do you remember Jean-Bertrand Aristide? (puppet government)?

The best thing to do with Haiti is stay far away from it.

This is true, the Humanitarian effort will turn into nation building...then into a psuedo occupation.

[TheTyke]

We absolutely shouldn't be sending our military or "foreign aid"! I can't believe anyone here would agree to this!

There is no constitutional authorization for it. Our troops and our taxes are meant to protect for US citizens, not the rest of the world! You could chase endlessly after trying to "fix" everything - as we already are, sort of. Government programs are useless enough, but when you funnel our resources through other governments, they just turn into tools of control, domination, and advancing causes we would never agree to.

Voluntary charity is the best way to help. Leave the money with the people, and let them make the choices of what is the best way to help.

[Bossobass]

Where is China?

Where are the multinationals who suck the life out of these people daily to increase profits?

Where are the NAFTA and CAFTA profiteers?

Where is Chavez?

Where's David Rockefeller?

Where's Goldman Suckhole?

Where's the military industrial complex?

The US Military is trained to occupy and kill. Nothing else. They're just being sent there to guard the big boys' banks and factories, trust me.

Bosso

[MelissaWV]

The applicable private companies are also helping out already. Bandages, general medical supplies, baby items, etc. are on the way. One can argue about the fact this is being done as a huge tax writeoff, but right now it doesn't matter much. I am sure that various other companies are sending aid as well.


We are all deeply saddened by the impact of the devastating earthquake that struck Haiti on Tuesday, destroying much of the country’s capital city of Port-au-Prince.

As part of Our Credo commitment to helping those in need around the world, we are working with our international disaster relief partners to assess what they need from Johnson & Johnson to assist with their emergency relief efforts. As a starting point, we shipped immediately four Johnson & Johnson disaster relief modules with large quantities of our consumer and over-the-counter products. We also are coordinating cash donations to organizations known to us and our regional colleagues to assist with initial aid. Our partners at Medical Teams International (MTI), the Surgical Implant Generation Network (SIGN), and Esperanza International are on their way to Haiti to evaluate the situation on the ground as well as to offer emergency medical treatment.

Our Family of Companies in Latin America and the Caribbean is in contact with Haitian and Dominican nongovernmental organizations such as Hospital Albert Schweitzer, Esperanza International and Partners In Health to assess on-the-ground needs. Our companies will be preparing additional product donations based on needs identified by these and other partners. Additionally, we are evaluating maritime capacity for shipping products from Puerto Rico to Haiti, and activating contacts with our distributors in Haiti and the Dominican Republic to understand logistics of moving donated products from the ports and airports into the affected areas.

[pcosmar]

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/wwi/88275.htm

U.S. Invasion and Occupation of Haiti, 1915-34

Under interventionist policies of the early 20th century, President Woodrow Wilson sent the United States Marines into Haiti to restore order and maintain political and economic stability in the Caribbean after the assassination of the Haitian President in July of 1915. This occupation continued until 1934.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,112838,00.html

PORT-AU-PRINCE, Haiti — President Jean-Bertrand Aristide (search) resigned and flew into exile Sunday, pressured by a bloody rebellion and the United States. Gunfire crackled as the capital fell into chaos, and U.S. Marines arrived in the country.

The contingent totaled fewer than 100 Marines and more were to arrive Monday. They were the vanguard of a multinational force that the U.N. Security Council (search) approved late Sunday night, and France said it would send troops on Monday.

"The government believes it is essential that Haiti (search) have a hopeful future. This is the beginning of a new chapter," President Bush said at the White House. "I would urge the people of Haiti to reject violence, to give this break from the past a chance to work. And the United States is prepared to help."

Haiti has been a shit hole for as long as anyone can remember.
look at the history. :(

[Johnnybags]

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/US-Companies-Rush-to-Haitis-cnbc-878798178.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=1&asset=&ccode=


I predicted as much yesterday. The military is in, will help, then slave labor will be used by these companies rushing in now and Corporate America will have a power grab on Haiti.

[jmdrake]

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/wwi/88275.htm

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,112838,00.html


Haiti has been a shit hole for as long as anyone can remember.
look at the history. :(

If the plan is to transform Haiti into an Island Paradise then forget it. But if the plan is to rescue some people in a really bad fix who are right on our doorstep that's a different matter. We went halfway around the world to help tsunami victims after all. And you're earlier reference to Somalia doesn't actually fit. Starvation in Somalia was due primarily to a security issue. In this case the short term problem is due to the earthquake. Yes there will be still be long term problems a year from now, but that doesn't mean we can't do something in the short term.



http://finance.yahoo.com/news/US-Com...&asset=&ccode=

I predicted as much yesterday. The military is in, will help, then slave labor will be used by these companies rushing in now and Corporate America will have a power grab on Haiti.


:rolleyes: Sending relief supplies is not automagically a "power grab". The same thing happened after Katrina. Corporations donated a lot of stuff partly out of humanitarian reasons and partly to generate "goodwill". The end result was not new factories in New Orleans taking advantage of "slave labor".

[MelissaWV]

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/US-Companies-Rush-to-Haitis-cnbc-878798178.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=1&asset=&ccode=


I predicted as much yesterday. The military is in, will help, then slave labor will be used by these companies rushing in now and Corporate America will have a power grab on Haiti.

I doubt that companies will be in any hurry to move to Haiti. The labor itself is cheap, but the Government bribes are far more expensive than those in Mexico. Haiti is also devoid of any really nice, attractive places to live (moreso after this). Mexico offers some areas that are friendly towards the corporate overseers who have to come along as part of a non-US office of operations for a company.

As for J&J, there are already locations in Puerto Rico, Miami, and Juarez. Haiti is zero value-added. Most other companies will be of a similar mind, I am guessing.

[axiomata]

Not sure if this video has been linked to.

A recent Russian Times interview with RP has him reluctantly approving of emergency US aid if we are "in the area".

YouTube - Ron Paul 1/14/10 "Haiti Needs Free Markets & Sound Money/Stay Out Of YemenFed Shouldn't Be Secret" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-IyJjPqmGA)

[squarepusher]

Not sure if this video has been linked to.

A recent Russian Times interview with RP has him reluctantly approving of emergency US aid if we are "in the area".

YouTube - Ron Paul 1/14/10 "Haiti Needs Free Markets & Sound Money/Stay Out Of YemenFed Shouldn't Be Secret" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-IyJjPqmGA)

RP becoming a statist :eek:

[BlackTerrel]

It is not a millitary intervention- it is a humanitarian effort. If your town and home were devistated by a large earthquake you would probably be grateful for the help.

This. You can be a non-interventionist and still have a heart.

[dannno]

In before the military F's it up and most of here get to say "I told you so" to all the scarecrows with a heart and no brain.




As I posted in another thread, the Government can "help" by giving a certain portion of its employees leave to go volunteer through one of those [private international relief] organizations. There are always problems after a crisis, with people who want to go help but can't because they wouldn't have a job to come back to. I'm sure there are certain ex-military, ex-firemen, ex-policemen, etc., who would love to go and would have valuable skills to offer. Businesses could be strongly encouraged (no force, though, for love of God) to allow certain people leave to go help. Businesses can also, obviously, make donations or match their employees' donations to the effort.

Best solution so far.

[dannno]

RP becoming a statist :eek:

Actually, I agree with him, only because they are RIGHT THERE and they could actually go help pull people out of buildings before they die. It's like if you were walking down the street and somebody needed help, then you should help them because you are close, as far as proximity to the situation.

But no, we should not have a major national effort, it can be done through private organizations... and it would be a lot more effective if we weren't being taxed so damn much.

[squarepusher]

Actually, I agree with him, only because they are RIGHT THERE and they could actually go help pull people out of buildings before they die. It's like if you were walking down the street and somebody needed help, then you should help them because you are close, as far as proximity to the situation.

But no, we should not have a major national effort, it can be done through private organizations... and it would be a lot more effective if we weren't being taxed so damn much.

but why do they need guns, grenades and armored suits to do it?

and has anyone been monitoring HAARP as of late?

[RyanRSheets]

I oppose it as a matter of principle, because I don't think anyone should be forced to help Haiti, and obviously I will not have a choice but to pay for this. However, I would much rather have our troops sent on a mission to help people than basically on a mission to attract bullets in Afghanistan. It's a step in the right direction, at least.

[squarepusher]

I oppose it as a matter of principle, because I don't think anyone should be forced to help Haiti, and obviously I will not have a choice but to pay for this. However, I would much rather have our troops sent on a mission to help people than basically on a mission to attract bullets in Afghanistan. It's a step in the right direction, at least.

with our troops sent into Haiti busy occupying them, then whos to say we wont send more troops to Afghanistan to fulfill our original number expected there?

and I still want to know if anyone has been monitoring HAARP lately to see if it was somehow involved

[devil21]

Anybody that doesn't believe the "aid" from the US government is already tied to certain "favors" from the desperate Haitian government is nuts. There's people in the background already working out how to secure contracts for the Halliburtons and the like to help "rebuild" Haiti, and most likely on your dime, not Haiti's. There really is no such thing as government humanitarianism. It's always tied to certain favors or promises. Probably a new CIA black ops prison site or something...

The situation there is terrible but it always was. It's just worse now. There are lots of voluntary efforts already underway and Im ok with certain government assistance (loaning of heavy machinery, search and rescue teams like China sent, etc, iow renewable and temporary aid with little to no permanent price tag) but Im not in favor of just handing over millions of American taxpayer dollars to the government of Haiti (or the UN for that matter) to use as it sees fit. We know of the rampant corruption in "aid package" distribution in poor nations and for a country that's already flat broke (Haiti, not the US....but yeah we're broke too) I just don't see the benefit other than photo ops for our government officials (ahem..HRC) and the gross opportunity for the corrupted government of Haiti to take whatever it wants.

Besides, no one runs to our aid when we have disasters. Oh yeah, a big NO on sending US military troops there. They already have enough to worry about without now having to risk catching the horrible diseases that undoubtedly start spreading in the wake of mass death and non-existent sanitation practices. That pic earlier in the thread makes me shiver. I don't want my military walking through that mess and bringing it home.

George Soros could come out of his pocket and place a private security team across that whole island and not miss a single cent of the payment.

[Zippyjuan]

Besides, no one runs to our aid when we have disasters
Lots of countries offered us aid after Katrina. For the most part, we have the resources to deal with them so that we do not need outside aid with our crisies like this. Some of the countries named might surprise you. Haiti has basically no resources. What "favors" could they possibly offer us?

Not on this list but on the Wiki list is even Iran who offered humanitarian aid and 20 million barrels of oil (oil platforms in the Gulf were damaged and would be out of commission for a while). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9282598/

Aid offered by foreign countries and groups to help the U.S. with Hurricane Katrina relief efforts, according to the State Department:

Afghanistan: $100,000
Albania: $300,000 pledged
Armenia: $200,000 pledged
Australia: $7.6 million
Austria: tarps, camp beds
Azerbaijan: $500,000
Bahamas: $50,000 pledged
Bahrain: $5 million pledged
Bangladesh: $1 million pledged
Belgium: operations teams, generators, water pumps, nine-member logistical team to work with the Red Cross
Bosnia/Herzegovina: $6,414 pledged
Cambodia: $20,000 pledged
Canada: $5 million pledged to the hurricane relief fund headed by former Presidents George H.W. Bush and Bill Clinton, two Griffin helicopters, search and rescue teams, Air Canada evacuation flights, supplies, security team, three Canadian forces ships with three Sea King helicopters
China: $5.1 million, 1,000 tents, 600 generators, bed sheets
Cyprus: $50,000
Djibouti: $50,000 pledged
Equatorial Guinea: $500,000 pledged
Eupropean Commission: Civil Protection Cooperative Mechanism activated
France: 600 tents, supplies
Gabon: $500,000 pledged
Georgia: $50,000
Germany: high-speed pumps, supplies
Greece: two cruise ships
Hungary: $5,000
Iceland: $500,000 pledged to the Bush-Clinton Katrina Fund
International Committee of the Red Cross: Web-based tracking system for displaced people
India: $5 million; 3,000 each of personal-hygiene kits, blankets and sheets; 150 tarps
Iraq: $1 million pledged to the Red Cross via the Red Crescent
Ireland: $1 million euro (about $1.24 million U.S.)
Italy: generators, water pumps and purifiers, tents, supplies
Japan: $200,000, $844,000 in supplies and private pledges of more than $1 million
Kenya: $100,000
Kuwait: $100 million plus an additional $400 million in oil products
Malaysia: $1 million to the Red Cross
Maldives: $25,000 to the Red Cross
Mauritania: $200,000 from the American Mauritania Business Council to the Red Cross
Mexico: 45 truckloads of supplies, transport vehicles, two field kitchens, two helicopters
Mongolia: $50,000 pledged
Morocco: $500,000 pledged
Nepal: $25,000 pledged
Netherlands: Levee inspection team to assist Army Corps of Engineers, water pumps, frigate
New Zealand: $1.4 million to the Red Cross
Nigeria: $1 million pledged
Norway: $1.54 million in cash and supplies
Oman: $15 million
Organization of American States: $25,000, created fund for donations from member states to the International Committee of the Red Cross
Pakistan: $1 million pledged to the Red Cross, supplies
Palau: $50,000 pledged plus $50,000 donor drive
Papua New Guinea: $10,000 to the Red Cross
Qatar: $100 million pledged
Republic of Korea: $30 million, supplies
Russia: air transport, generators, tents, blankets, water, water pumps, supplies
Sao Tome and Principe: $18,000 pledged
Saudi Arabia: $5 million from Aramco, $250,000 from AGFUND
Singapore: four helicopters
Spain: relief supplies
Sri Lanka: $25,000 to the Red Cross
Sweden: telecommunications equipment
Taiwan: $2 million, supplies
Thailand: blankets, supplies
United Arab Emirates: $100 million pledged
Uganda: $200,000 pledged
United Kingdom: relief supplies
Venezuela: up to $1 million to the Red Cross and state governments
Vietnam: $100,000 to victims
Yemen: $100,000 to the Red Cross
SOURCE: State Department

[devil21]

Yay! A bunch of "pledges" for one single event that couldnt be ignored. Did anyone see any of this money other than the government? Sure doesn't look like it if you've been to New Orleans since. So granted there were reported offers of help after Katrina but that's just one. Way to be a uber anal contrarian that misses the point. You should make that your sig btw!

Show me the aid from the midwest floods, 9/11, San Fran earthquake, the gobs of massively destructive hurricanes along Florida, etc. Don't bother, we know it doesn't exist. But anything happens elsewhere in the world and (my) money is no object for the photo op seeking politicians.

[Zippyjuan]

What other disasters have we had which would have invited international aid? As I mention, in general, we have the resources to handle local disasters. Is it wrong to help those who do not like Haiti? Or should we just care about you? What sort of disaster aid are you in need of?

[WRellim]

Haiti (it's not like there hasn't been "aid" there for years now):
http://www.haitiaction.net/News/HIP/1_7_5a.html

And then there is the primary problem:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiti#Demographics

[devil21]

What other disasters have we had which would have invited international aid? As I mention, in general, we have the resources to handle local disasters. Is it wrong to help those who do not like Haiti? Or should we just care about you? What sort of disaster aid are you in need of?

See above for my sig suggestion. It fits here too.

Btw, in case you missed the memo, this country is BROKE and the $100 million in aid pledged to Haiti by HRC and Obama will be borrowed or printed. The politicians do not care. We aren't supposed to be the policeman of the world but we sure can be the humanitarians of the world? Naaa....we don't need no stinkin charity from those lesser countries when we have problems. The same ones we send shit tons of "free" money to every other day of the year. Naaa....it's bad to expect any one else to give a shit about the US while taking our money hand over fist. In case you missed that point too, this is a bigger issue than just Haiti. Like I said, Im ok with stuff like rescue teams and heavy equipment, just not big checks from Ben's printing press.

[Met Income]

Fuck you, you little prick.

Why the ad-hom attack?

[MichelleHeart]

Would taxpayers be forced to pay for it? Why can't we just leave private charities to their mechanisms? I'm sure lots of people would be willing to pay for the efforts out of their own pockets.

[Liberty Star]

Tax payers would still pay for it, but instead of $1 million per soldier/year Afghan reconstruction cost, in quake rescue probably would cost $10K per troop.

[werdd]

No. You think if california ever had an earthquake Haiti would be here to help us? Who is at authority to spend our money to help any foreign country? Donate if you will, but coerced resource spending in this area is a No-no.

Just because it would be better than us fighting a war does not make it constitutional.

[Liberty Star]

No. You think if california ever had an earthquake Haiti would be here to help us? Who is at authority to spend our money to help any foreign country? Donate if you will, but coerced resource spending in this area is a No-no.

Just because it would be better than us fighting a war does not make it constitutional.


That is a good question.

Based on past record of people who received aid from us from Iraqis to Afghans to Israelis, they don't tend to show up to help Americans when people here are in need.

[Dunedain]

Haiti has basically no resources. What "favors" could they possibly offer us?

Haiti was considered the Jewel of The Caribbean, and was the richest colony in the entire world when the French controlled it. Richer than any of the American colonies at the time. The whole reason the French wanted Haiti was because of it's natural resources. They exported more sugar than anywhere in the world.

Now it's a seething mess...and not because of the earthquake. But you are correct, we certainly don't want or need Haitian "relief" workers assisting us should we have another natural disaster.

[MelissaWV]

I guess they should make a brief detour to Venezuela if it's needed, too? (Yes I know 5.7 is not exactly a game-changer.)

It's funny. On a normal news cycle this would be news. In fact, coupled with the Haiti incident this SHOULD be news... but I had to dig to find it at all.


An earthquake with preliminary magnitude of 5.6 struck eastern Venezuela on Friday, the U.S. Geological Survey reported.

The quake's epicenter was about 25 miles from Carupano, near the Caribbean coast in northeastern Venezuela, the agency said. It was 7 miles deep.

The geological survey revised its estimates after initially reporting the quake as having a 5.7 magnitude and an epicenter slightly closer to Carupano. The revised location is about 235 miles east of the Venezuelan capital, Caracas.

There were no immediate reports of damage or injuries.

[Zippyjuan]

Given this:

There were no immediate reports of damage or injuries
it would receive barely a mention.

[HOLLYWOOD]

An earthquake with preliminary magnitude of 5.6 struck eastern Venezuela on Friday, the U.S. Geological Survey reported.

It was only most of the business TV stations today...

************************************************** *****************************

Watch the BBC feed and see the sporadic Riots/Looting, Pillaging, going on via their video feeds.

If it's wasn't for the UN and US troops there now... it would turn into an all out FREE FOR ALL rioting.

[andrewh817]

There really is no such thing as government humanitarianism. It's always tied to certain favors or promises.

Thank you. People underestimate how often the government flat-out lies. There's major civil unrest there right now, they wouldn't put armed forces there if it were peaceful....