The Tea Party Movement is Fracturing!

[Matt Collins]

This is a fascinating segment regarding the Tea Party movement and it's current direction, especially as it relates to the Republican Party.

If you can stomach the host and her bias, start the playback at 2:40 into the linked video (everything before that point is nonsense):
YouTube - Stephen Gordon on Rachel Maddow #2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRLPXEr3ZoQ)

[ItsTime]

If Madow has a guest that says its fracturing it means the Tea Party movement is pretty solid.

[constituent]

So I guess now might be the time to start asking if it was ever really a "movement."

And if it was, what was it a movement toward?

Any thoughts?

[ItsTime]

So I guess now might be the time to start asking if it was ever really a "movement."

And if it was, what was it a movement toward?

Any thoughts?

Exactly what mspropagandabc wants you to ask.

[Matt Collins]

If Madow has a guest that says its fracturing it means the Tea Party movement is pretty solid.
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater :rolleyes:
(remember Maddow had Rand on the show too)


I can tell you from first and second hand experience here in Nashville that the movement is being co-opted by big-government types, or those who are just opportunists looking to use the TPM as a vehicle for their own ends. Remember I'm ground zero for the upcoming TP conference with Palin @ $550/person.

[LibertyEagle]

I'm not in the least, surprised. We all knew it was going to be a fight.

[LibertyEagle]

I can tell you from first and second hand experience here in Nashville that the movement is being co-opted by big-government types, or those who are just opportunists looking to use the TPM as a vehicle for their own ends. Remember I'm ground zero for the upcoming TP conference with Palin @ $550/person.

This is common in every campaign or movement.

[ItsTime]

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater :rolleyes:



I can tell you from first and second hand experience here in Nashville that the movement is being co-opted by big-government types, or those who are just opportunists looking to use the TPM as a vehicle for their own ends.

And ass hats that cant work together once they get political power to take out and weed out those big-government types and would rather get thrown out of the party than work in that party to change it.


If we can not co-opt this movement we are failures. It is time for liberty we just need to know what the f- to do.

[Chester Copperpot]

True Teapartiers are fighting up vs. down politically.. Anybody doing the left vs. right argument calling themselves a teapartier is either misinformed or an agent provacateur ( or some other type of infiltrator) IMO

[MN Patriot]

She treated her libertarian guest respectfully, I thought.

These strikes are a foolish waste of time, can't the Tea Party organizers come up with something more effective?

[Matt Collins]

And ass hats that cant work together once they get political power to take out and weed out those big-government types and would rather get thrown out of the party than work in that party to change it. 1 - no name calling.

2- You obviously haven't read what I've written because nothing I could've done would've stopped them from throwing me out of the 1st Vice Chair. They didn't want me in because they couldn't control me, I wasn't in the Chair's social country-club clique, and because I was outspoken against big-government Republicans. But more is to come on that story very soon ;)



If we can not co-opt this movement we are failures. It is time for liberty we just need to know what the f- to do.Huh? We are the Tea Party movement. Remember we started this way before Obama was elected. Or do you forget? Here are some reminders:


YouTube - Austin Tea Party / Ron Paul rally 12-16-2007 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvGS12EoZUE)
YouTube - Ron Paul Tea Party (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-D9sPsqfpc)
YouTube - Ron Paul Tea Party 2007 Los Angeles,Ca (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGB8BeUWtwA)
YouTube - Ron Paul Tea Party - Santa Monica Pier (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNP1-bokv2g)

[constituent]

These strikes are a foolish waste of time, can't the Tea Party organizers come up with something more effective?

They consider visibility to be effective.

[Old Ducker]

The tea parties have been a farce from the beginning.



Courtesy of Don Cooper:

I watched closely all the tea parties all over the country Wednesday. What a
showing of national pride and solidarity. What a showing of subservient
compliance and casual indifference. What a joke.

In Lafayette Park, Washington D.C., of all places to protest, the plan was
to dump one million tea bags in the park, but the brave dissidents never did
it because they forgot to get the proper permits. Are you kidding me? What
is civil disobedience without civil disobedience? They even went so far as
to say that they were willing to put down plastic tarps and clean up after
themselves.

That's like saying we don't agree with your oppressive, unconstitutional
despotism of our nation and to show our ire in no uncertain terms we're
going to break public law and disrupt the peace so take that, nah-
nah-ne-boo-boo. But don't worry because we'll put everything back when we're
done as if nothing happened cuz we don't want any trouble!

Videos on the Internet of Lafayette Park show people standing around in
their trendy turtlenecks and Tommy Hilfiger and North Face jackets,
chatting, socializing, drinking coffee and talking on their cell phones.
Some dressed in colonial garb (how cute) and waving flags. Others even break
into a rendition of the Star Spangled Banner followed by a chant of "USA,
USA, USA." What a terrific show of meaningless symbolism.

Who are they chanting to? The buildings in front of them? The birds in the
trees? Themselves? What was this supposed to do, because it doesn't take a
rocket scientist to surmise that it did NOTHING! All the politicians were
inside, smugly and comfortably seated in their expensive leather chairs that
we paid for. They were discussing their next round of special interest
pandering and deficit spending at our expense while we mingled as if at a,
well, tea party. But not the sort of 1773 but rather more like the sort at 4
p.m. in England that is served with crumpets.

The politicians could have cared less about the goings on outside and NO ONE
took it to them. Shame on us. No one made sure they took notice. No one was
put out one bit. No economic loss to the government whatsoever, as was the
purpose of the original tea party, so why should they notice?

Is this like giving to a charity? You write a check to feed a starving child
for 10 cents a day in some far off, nameless, faceless country and you feel
better about yourself?

I attended a "tea party" in the Midwest on Wednesday and there were only
about 200 people there. And it was literally a tea party: people came with
their coffee mugs and sandwiches, holding signs and standing around and
chatting and socializing and then everyone went home. No passion. No signs
of real frustration or discontent. No real commitment to changing anything.
You know why? Because nobody wants to fire the first shot! Everybody wants
change, but only if they don't have to pay for it. Only if their comfortable
lives don't have to be disrupted for their freedom. What a bunch of crap.

Then I see all these political pundits ( idiots ) on CNN talking about how
the tea party movement is nothing more than a partisan, Republican,
conservative movement against the Obama administration and how the majority
of Americans agree with the taxing and borrowing and spending. Some
numb-nuts CNN political (anal)yst named Jeff Toobin says that the Texas
state legislative resolution to reaffirm their state's sovereignty is a
fantasy. Are you kidding me? State's sovereignty is a fantasy? Well I guess
that says it all. Come on everyone, down the rabbit hole.

[Background music] One pill makes you larger and one pill makes you small.

Welcome to the other side of the looking glass everybody. My name's Alice
and I'll be your host for the mad tea party today. Let me introduce some
other guests: the Hatter, March Hare, Dormouse, Chris Dodd, Barney Frank,
Ted Kennedy, John McCain, Rod Blagojevich, Al Sharpton, Hillary Clinton all
the AIG executives and many, many more. Don't worry you'll have time to get
to know them all since you can't leave no matter what you do so might as
well just get used to it. Resistance is futile.

No doubt the majority of Americans didn't want to go to war against the
British in 1776. But would anyone say now that it was the wrong thing to do?
No doubt the majority of Americans didn't want a civil war. Both those wars
were, at their core, about state's rights. About oppressive governments
trying to overreach their authority and impose unlawful mandates on the
states. It was about their freedom to do what they wish with their lives.

I think we have met the enemy and it is us. We're a bunch of fast food
nourished, MTV anesthetized, shopping mall, plug-in-drug (aka television)
addicts who will do anything to preserve that way of life at least until we
die. After that who cares?

We're a clinically obese, socially disconnected, politically inept and
intellectually bankrupt nation of douche bags who deserve everything they
get.

The movement has no leader. When I listen to anyone other than Ron Paul,
Peter Schiff or Lew Rockwell speak about the issues we discuss on LRC I
might as well be listening to any other political party spokesperson. They
sound just the same. They dress just the same. They say the same old tired
things. Ron Paul has even mentioned at times that the Libertarian party has
become just another political party interested more in their political
posturing rather than liberty. They have all the same sorts of infighting
and power struggles that are symptomatic of the fact that they have lost
their way.

Rallying the troops to vote more like-minded individuals into office won't
work. That's an old, failing strategy. When will someone step forward with
the courage, character, wisdom and intelligence to lead our nation into the
21st century the way our forefathers led it into the 19th century?

Will it be Texas governor Rick Perry? Perry is using rhetoric about seceding
from the union. That is EXACTLY the kind of thing we need. I believe, given
the other states with similar resolutions in their legislatures, that it
would begin a domino effect. It would give people a chance to actually have
a clear reason to fight: their state's rights of sovereignty and they would
know that they have the state's resources behind them. Unfortunately, even
though it's clear what a boost Texas seceding would be in uniting us, I have
no doubt that Perry is not up to the task and is using the issue as nothing
more than a rallying point for reelection.

Where have all the heroes gone? Where are all the pioneers? Where are the
visionaries? Where are the true statesmen? Where are the defenders of
freedom? What has happened to the American Spirit of life and liberty? I
guess they're all at the mall or Starbucks and are too fat to get up out of
their chair and fight. Or they're looking forward to retirement and the
"good life" after spending their life being a good soldier and playing by
the rules and saving for the "golden years" while their real golden years of
youth were passing them by. Certainly they can't be asked to risk all that
for something as silly as their children's futures. How selfish of me.

Or maybe we don't want to risk our children's well-being now, so we defer it
until they're adults and let them deal with the fact that they can't afford
college or health care or a home without going into enormous debt and we
never teach them the importance of things like: character, honor, integrity,
truth and freedom but rather teach them how to live in fear and how
important it is to get a "good job" and play by the rules and to go along to
get along and that will be safe.

We're pathetic.

[ItsTime]

1 - no name calling.

2- You obviously haven't read what I've written because nothing I could've done would've stopped them from throwing me out of the 1st Vice Chair. They didn't want me in because they couldn't control me, I wasn't in the Chair's social country-club clique, and because I was outspoken against big-government Republicans. But more is to come on that story very soon ;)


Huh? We are the Tea Party movement. Remember we started this way before Obama was elected. Or do you forget? Here are some reminders:

1. I wasnt talking about you

2. I wasnt talking about you

3. Yes I remember. But does the avg tea party goer? No.

[LittleLightShining]

There's been a major schism in the VT Tea Party movement. One city tea party organizer has peeled off her group and joined forces with the 9-12ers and neo-cons in her area to form a new group. Apparently the schism had to do with this splinter group wanting to make opposition to gay marriage a big part of their effort while the remainder of the tea party groups feel that they should stay out of social issues altogether...

In the meantime, the VT C4L is less than a week away from our convention and because I organized one of the first tea parties I still have plenty of email addresses and name recognition to use to advertise it :D

[InterestedParticipant]

This is by design.

1. First false leaders were assigned to the "movement"
2. Then these false leaders pushed the movement down untenable paths
3. False leaders received much media coverage and publicity, especially any bizarre positions far from the mainstream
4. Cointel operatives created and ran "events" and then made sure that cointel operatives attended these events and performed acts far from the mainstream in clear view of media, who were tipped-off in advance.

I could go on and on and on about the diversions, subversions, usurpations and myriad of other techniques that were implemented.

But in short, the "movement" (if it ever was that), is now totally discredited in the view of many mainstream Americans and any forces that might have been useful have been muted, discounted and fractured, making the entire effort more of a burning tire around ones neck than a useful tool transferring power back to the public.

Welcome to the world of modern day 4th Generational Warfare (4GW) as inflicted on an overwhelmed and stupified public.

[cheapseats]

Matt Collins,

"The Tea Party Movement is Fracturing!" could be a self-fulfilling prophecy or it could be wishful thinking but, no matter how you cut the cake, it is not a headline you want screaming out from yer front page. Not if yer one a them Original Tea Party Patriots instead a one a them New Fangled Tea Party Company Men. You are too politic to be so careless.

GOD KNOWS, enough people take the LIBERTY to dress me down whilst shooting the messenger -- you can't NOT agree. I preface my remarks, then, by saying I think you are not a bad guy. I can imagine you in Washington, on balance to the People's Good. HOWEVER, you are INVESTED in Same Old Same Old. You alluded to a third party lock-out in your neck of the woods - I unnerstand that you gotch yerself a problem.

But you HAVE to concede . . . actually, you don't . . . others HAVE to see . . . actually, they don't. I'm TELLING you -- I know, if you don't know -- that being the niche firebrand makes you no less INVESTED in the two-party stranglehold.

The headline is purposefully incendiary. But it DOES grab attention. You gotta get attention to get ahead in Politics, eh? As with Celebrities, bad press is better than no press.

Baby Boomers will recall a Lovin' Spoonful tune called DID YOU EVER HAVE TO MAKE UP YOUR MIND.

Did you ever have to make up your mind
Pick up on one and leave the other behind
It's not often easy and not often kind
Did you ever have to make up your mind

You can't play this both ways, you really can't. It's either Reform first and Personal Political Ambition second, or Personal Political Ambition first and Reform second.

[lynnf]

you know, fracturing is not all that bad. if one tea party in an area splits into 2, and they are both still fighting the opposition, so what? and if one tea party in an area splits into 2 with one controlled by the former do-nothing or faux leaders, and the other is still fighting the opposition, then all the better because they aren't co-opted by the faux leadership anymore.

somebody feed that to the lamestream media.

lynn

[Matt Collins]

"The Tea Party Movement is Fracturing!" could be a self-fulfilling prophecy or it could be wishful thinking but, no matter how you cut the cake, it is not a headline you want screaming out from yer front page.
No I think it's important that attention is called to it early on so that we can recognize it. If no one knows what is happening until it's too late then we are S.O.L.

[CaseyJones]

this sounds like our kinda party :D
http://www.lcsun-news.com/las_cruces-news/ci_14113973

[Matt Collins]

This is by design.

4. Cointel operatives created and ran "events" and then made sure that cointel operatives attended these events and performed acts far from the mainstream in clear view of media, who were tipped-off in advance.
Don't be conspiratorial :rolleyes:

The original tea partiers were not establishment types, in fact the ones in Nashville were indeed Ron Paul supporters. However the tea parties are now starting to be run by those who are not the grassroots but yet the establishment. They saw a good thing and they want to co-opt it.

[LittleLightShining]

"The Tea Party Movement is Fracturing!" could be a self-fulfilling prophecy or it could be wishful thinking but, no matter how you cut the cake, it is not a headline you want screaming out from yer front page. Not if yer one a them Original Tea Party Patriots instead a one a them New Fangled Tea Party Company Men. You are too politic to be so careless.

Matt's awesome at bad thread titles.

[LittleLightShining]

Don't be conspiratorial :rolleyes:

The original tea partiers were not establishment types, in fact the ones in Nashville were indeed Ron Paul supporters. However the tea parties are now starting to be run by those who are not the grassroots but yet the establishment. They saw a good thing and they want to co-opt it.

The tea parties around here are grassroots. I know these people. I have my questions about the splinter group, though. There are some interesting alleged connections...

[cheapseats]

No I think it's important that attention is called to it early on so that we can recognize it. If no one knows what is happening until it's too late then we are S.O.L.


EARLY? Lemme put it this way. I have yet to learn which "patriot" landed on nine-twelve for the big WE'LL SHOW YOU in Washington DC. THE DAY AFTER NINE ELEVEN AND THE FIRST WEEKEND AFTER SUMMER? It would have been hard to pick a WORSE date.

At LEAST by the time that Event was COORDINATED, it's smoke and mirrors.

I do NOT work for the Federal or any State/Municipal government. Taxpayers do not pay my wages. I do not collect benefits. YET. ;) I am NOT paid by any politician, person, group, cause or party. Others care to weigh in?

Of course, what else WOULD I say?

[cheapseats]

you know, fracturing is not all that bad. if one tea party in an area splits into 2, and they are both still fighting the opposition, so what?


That's right.

It's also one thing they don't expect, that factions would find their solidarity rather than focus on their differences.

Trouble is, not EVERYONE'S candidates can be elected.

NO ONE is gonna get this all their way, UNLESS IT'S THE GANGS THAT ALREADY HAVE EVERYTHING ALL THEIR WAY.

[TheConstitutionLives]

True Teapartiers are fighting up vs. down politically.. Anybody doing the left vs. right argument calling themselves a teapartier is either misinformed or an agent provacateur ( or some other type of infiltrator) IMO


I concur with that. "Infilitrator", meaning GOPer's are co-opting it for political purposes, like getting elected or staying elected.

[TheConstitutionLives]

This is by design.

1. First false leaders were assigned to the "movement"
2. Then these false leaders pushed the movement down untenable paths
3. False leaders received much media coverage and publicity, especially any bizarre positions far from the mainstream
4. Cointel operatives created and ran "events" and then made sure that cointel operatives attended these events and performed acts far from the mainstream in clear view of media, who were tipped-off in advance.

I could go on and on and on about the diversions, subversions, usurpations and myriad of other techniques that were implemented.

But in short, the "movement" (if it ever was that), is now totally discredited in the view of many mainstream Americans and any forces that might have been useful have been muted, discounted and fractured, making the entire effort more of a burning tire around ones neck than a useful tool transferring power back to the public.

Welcome to the world of modern day 4th Generational Warfare (4GW) as inflicted on an overwhelmed and stupified public.

Those filthy Reptilians are at it again! Don't believe anything you see or hear. Everything is part of the plot. This conspiracy is so sophisticated that you are even a part of it and don't know it. You're being controlled to control others who control others who control others and so on. And those controlling you are being controlled by those who are being controlled by those who are being controlled and so on. It's a conspiracy of a conspiracy of a conspiracy. My friend, it's all part of the plan being implemented.

[Dianne]

FAUX News raping the tea party movement, calling Sarah Palin the queen of it... lmao... Ms. Conspiracy here, but told everyone at the dinner table tonight Sarah is bought and paid for by whatever powers (UN, etc.) to be certain the UN appointed affrican born dude gets a second term. They must be worried, they can't take the country down as quickly as they thought... Four years might be too little to throw you on the stree... Eight years is perfect to rape you and you family. Whatever she is getting paid far exceeded her Governor's salary.

Once we were people who joined together to protest taxation without representation... now we are a movement headed by Sarah Palin that costs $550. to get in. Is it just me, or does anyone else smell a rat ??

[American Nationalist]

http://punditkitchen.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/political-pictures-teabaggers-work-ethic.jpg

[Anti Federalist]

Those filthy Reptilians are at it again! Don't believe anything you see or hear. Everything is part of the plot. This conspiracy is so sophisticated that you are even a part of it and don't know it. You're being controlled to control others who control others who control others and so on. And those controlling you are being controlled by those who are being controlled by those who are being controlled and so on. It's a conspiracy of a conspiracy of a conspiracy. My friend, it's all part of the plan being implemented.

IP is laying out one way the operation could possibly be put into action.

An operation that you agreed was happening in the previous post.


I concur with that. "Infilitrator", meaning GOPer's are co-opting it for political purposes, like getting elected or staying elected.


Not everything is a conspiracy.

But not everything is on the level or how it appears on the surface, either.

[InterestedParticipant]

Don't be conspiratorial :rolleyes:

The original tea partiers were not establishment types, in fact the ones in Nashville were indeed Ron Paul supporters. However the tea parties are now starting to be run by those who are not the grassroots but yet the establishment. They saw a good thing and they want to co-opt it.
What evidence do you have that your perception of "reality" is accurate enough that you can deny another's view?

What is "being conspiratorial"? Can you define it?

And why is "being conspiratorial" something that one should not be? What is it's cons, and why do those cons outweigh its benefits, whatever 'they' are?


Those filthy Reptilians are at it again! Don't believe anything you see or hear. Everything is part of the plot. This conspiracy is so sophisticated that you are even a part of it and don't know it. You're being controlled to control others who control others who control others and so on. And those controlling you are being controlled by those who are being controlled by those who are being controlled and so on. It's a conspiracy of a conspiracy of a conspiracy. My friend, it's all part of the plan being implemented.
More empty mockery from one who can not reference any of the historical material that explains how the system operates or who has limited experience with it at any level that matters.

In short, an empty and baseless post that's only services to mock someone in an effort to diminish their insights.

Why are you so confident that a political movement would be allowed to be created without sufficient controls? Why would existing power centers take such risks, especially when the techniques that I discuss are as old as humanity and the resources and knowledge is readily available to implement and deploy said techniques.

[LittleLightShining]

Don't be conspiratorial :rolleyes:

The original tea partiers were not establishment types, in fact the ones in Nashville were indeed Ron Paul supporters. However the tea parties are now starting to be run by those who are not the grassroots but yet the establishment. They saw a good thing and they want to co-opt it.

I keep looking at this and I can't help but blame us for that. I organized the biggest tea party in VT. And then what? I passed the torch on. I hoped the torch would keep being passed and the movement if that's what became of it would be organic and leaderless. Unfortunately, that's not how it works in real life. And so while I've been focused on VTC4L the tea party has gained "leaders" and they steal our ideas and think they are more effective than we are-- when WE ARE THE TEA PARTY!

What I'm trying to say is that they only co-opted it because we let them. Every person who was naysaying the tea parties back in April is part of the problem. Every person who stopped being involved is part of the problem. Shet, even people like me who organized one, guest spoke at another, attend meetings, "conspire" with other tea partiers who have dared the lukewarm waters of the VTGOP with me... we're still the problem because we let them do it.

So then what? We pick up the pieces and do something with them. People can go stand around with signs for a few hours if that makes them feel better. And now they've shown they're willing to do it. Good. Find the activists in the group, interact and network with them and keep the communication open. A few hundred people with homemade signs is a good thing to have in our arsenal.

[InterestedParticipant]

LLS, this is precisely the problem in a 4th Generational Warfare world. All "group" activities, even if [originally] organically created, will be co-opted and sabotaged. Individuals must learn to act on their own as individuals. Techniques for manipulating groups, as I have posted at RPF previously, is well developed, highly effective, and widely utilized.

Idolatry of "leaders" is a sin for a reason.

[Peace&Freedom]

IP is laying out one way the operation could possibly be put into action.

An operation that you agreed was happening in the previous post.


Not everything is a conspiracy.

But not everything is on the level or how it appears on the surface, either.

This is the gist of the dynamic. IP is right on the tactics being employed to cripple the movement, but wrong and lacking documentation or about how comprehensive and competent the controllers are supposed to be. Which leaders, which events, which media did what to us? IP doesn't specify.
It is definitely true that some of the marginalization attempts have been laughably obvious (Beck's 9/12 rhetoric, the attempt to graft Palin as leader of the tea parties, etc); this is the mark of incompetence, not skillful controlling. But much of the failures also came from individuals, who simply got behind a 'leader' and 'events' of their own accord.

Case in point. To avoid the co-opt factor, when I organized several of the first RP meetup groups, I put the emphasis not on events, but on resource sharing, where individuals were encouraged to step up and declare what they could deliver, or who they knew networking wise, who could help get money or endorsements for Paul. Then plans for activities could emerge. I found over time this got drowned out, and the energies of meetup members shunted away by the "let's do some street outreach, hold a party during the next cable debate, wave some signs" immediate event approach, which at times got some attention but ultimately led to nothing.

In the end many meetup groups just wanted to do empty event busywork and follow a local 'leader.' This was not the result a manipulating 'controller' pushing them there---sometimes individuals just make mistakes on their own.

[constituent]

Exactly what mspropagandabc wants you to ask.

Couldn't say. I don't watch t.v.

FOX, CNN, MSNBC, Time, Newsweek, Vanity Fair... all the same to me.

[constituent]

Don't be conspiratorial :rolleyes:

Don't be an ass.

(asking too much, i know.)



The original tea partiers were not establishment types...

Oh yea, the originals. How could we forget?

http://www.tvweek.com/2009/02/20/08RickSantelliSMALL.jpg

"It's time for a tea-party."

http://static.open.salon.com/files/0_62_dick_armey1234292376.jpg

"Yea, I love tea parties!"

http://therealbarackobama.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/beck-glenn7.jpg?w=225&h=300

"Oh hells yea. See you at the alamo!"

http://www.indybay.org/uploads/2009/09/18/sean_hannity_1.jpg

"FTW, bitches."

[pacelli]

So I guess now might be the time to start asking if it was ever really a "movement."

And if it was, what was it a movement toward?

Any thoughts?

A bowel movement.

[constituent]

What I'm trying to say is that they only co-opted it because we let them. Every person who was naysaying the tea parties back in April is part of the problem. Every person who stopped being involved is part of the problem. Shet, even people like me who organized one, guest spoke at another, attend meetings, "conspire" with other tea partiers who have dared the lukewarm waters of the VTGOP with me... we're still the problem because we let them do it.

Uhhh no, the clowns who were co-opted into doing freedomworks' dirty-work were the problem. That you figured out your time was better spent elsewhere, and ultimately relinquished your "authority" is a clear illustration of the ol' "set 'em up and knock 'em down," bit.

You fell for it hook, line and sinker.

"Dogs f*d the pope, no fault of mine."
Hunter Thompson

You see LLS, as much as I enjoy our discussions here and appreciate your gumption and all the hard work you put into those things you believe in, you're the problem b/c you let "them" do it. You're the problem b/c you did it for "them." You're the problem b/c you legitimized their setup, and led untold numbers right into the trap.

...and insulted, bad mouthed, etc. those who refused to play along while you were at it. (actually, to clarify, not you personally. you've always handled yourself w/ dignity and grace in our personal discussion which i appreciate. the same, however, cannot be said for most of freedomworks' other cohorts.)

But hey, the Reagan coalition wasn't going to just reorganize itself!

[scoff]

<sarcasm> Guess the ends really do justify the means! </sarcasm>



I organized the biggest tea party in VT. And then what? I passed the torch on. I hoped the torch would keep being passed and the movement if that's what became of it would be organic and leaderless.

Ok wait, so you took on the role of "leader," "passed the torch," and expected that it would suddenly become organic and leaderless? I guess you expected your predecessors to learn from your "leaderless" example?

Certainly you see the disconnect in this type of reasoning.

[constituent]

A bowel movement.

Agreed.

[ScoutsHonor]

Don't be an ass.

(asking too much, i know.)



Oh yea, the originals. How could we forget?

http://www.tvweek.com/2009/02/20/08RickSantelliSMALL.jpg

"It's time for a tea-party."

http://static.open.salon.com/files/0_62_dick_armey1234292376.jpg

"Yea, I love tea parties!"

http://therealbarackobama.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/beck-glenn7.jpg?w=225&h=300

"Oh hells yea. See you at the alamo!"

http://www.indybay.org/uploads/2009/09/18/sean_hannity_1.jpg

"FTW, bitches."

Awesome

[LittleLightShining]

Uhhh no, the clowns who were co-opted into doing freedomworks' dirty-work were the problem. That you figured out your time was better spent elsewhere, and ultimately relinquished your "authority" is a clear illustration of the ol' "set 'em up and knock 'em down," bit.

You fell for it hook, line and sinker.

"Dogs f*d the pope, no fault of mine."
Hunter Thompson

You see LLS, as much as I enjoy our discussions here and appreciate your gumption and all the hard work you put into those things you believe in, you're the problem b/c you let "them" do it. You're the problem b/c you did it for "them." You're the problem b/c you legitimized their setup, and led untold numbers right into the trap.

...and insulted, bad mouthed, etc. those who refused to play along while you were at it. (actually, to clarify, not you personally. you've always handled yourself w/ dignity and grace in our personal discussion which i appreciate. the same, however, cannot be said for most of freedomworks' other cohorts.)

But hey, the Reagan coalition wasn't going to just reorganize itself!

[scoff]

<sarcasm> Guess the ends really do justify the means! </sarcasm>




Ok wait, so you took on the role of "leader," "passed the torch," and expected that it would suddenly become organic and leaderless? I guess you expected your predecessors to learn from your "leaderless" example?

Certainly you see the disconnect in this type of reasoning.

Well, I hadn't looked at it quite like this but I'm absolutely taking the blame for being part of the problem. Part of my stepping away was reactionary, I don't want to be a leader of a movement, I just want to be doing something productive and hopefully inspire others to embrace their inner activist. Unfortunately, I also let the left netroots and the GOP hacks here influence me to step away because I didn't want to be associated with what they were painting the tea parties as. As far as I'm concerned that was the right move for me personally.

So ultimately I did let them win. But I have a problem with massive organized movements (if you hadn't noticed :P) and I don't want to let people define me based on my associations. So yeah, I expected someone else to rise and fill the void. Which did happen and that's how I ended up taking part in the Independence Day tea party. I'm happy with the organizer of that event and she is definitely filling a leadership role. So who knows, my desire for a leaderless movement was naive but my walking away from that position but staying affiliated gives me some political leverage both ways.

I wasn't trying to be a pied piper, my motive was to give the people attending the tea party the right message, not just an outlet for all their anti-Obama sentiment.

[constituent]

I wasn't trying to be a pied piper, my motive was to give the people attending the tea party the right message, not just an outlet for all their anti-Obama sentiment.

I know, and ur awesome. :)


So who knows, my desire for a leaderless movement was naive but my walking away from that position but staying affiliated gives me some political leverage both ways.

I disagree with this. A leaderless movement, rebellion, revolt, revolution, whatever will never be born of a leader.

A contradiction, yes. Naïveté, no.

[Matt Collins]

Oh yea, the originals. How could we forget?


Those were not the original Tea Partiers :rolleyes:

[constituent]

Those were not the original Tea Partiers :rolleyes:

Keep telling yourself that Matt. After all, IN POLITICS, it's what YOU believe that REALLY COUNTs.

disclaimer: the second sentence is a sarcastic remark.

[InterestedParticipant]

This is the gist of the dynamic. IP is right on the tactics being employed to cripple the movement, but wrong and lacking documentation or about how comprehensive and competent the controllers are supposed to be. Which leaders, which events, which media did what to us? IP doesn't specify.
I've discussed some of the co-option in numerous other posts at RPF. I'm not going to rehash it here. In any event, people should be cognizant enough by now such that they don't need every little detail spelled out to them.

In any event, this political vector was co-opted before either of us were born. One can find ample evidence of this in the writings of the people that many here follow. Marx gives us the roots of the system (production, consumption, exchange), and all others have simple done is provide tangential support of this core system.

[constituent]

BTW, Ron Paul isn't a racist, and George Bush was complicit in the attacks on 9/11.

[constituent]

Marx gives us the roots of the system (production, consumption, exchange), and all others have simple done is provide tangential support of this core system.

[Shameless pop culture reference]

This is what Steven Colbert would refer to as "the nut meat."

The real heart of the matter.

[ramallamamama]

YouTube - Paulo Freire: Critical Consciousness - Rey Ty (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOmD_bFPa2c&feature=player_embedded)

There will be a test tomorrow morning.

[Matt Collins]

Keep telling yourself that Matt.Umm... I was there for it. I happen to know the original Tea Party people personally, and it wasn't anyone you listed. :rolleyes:

[ramallamamama]

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_AkrZ09GYiws/Sm8jDu7tGdI/AAAAAAAAKhw/24amNujUif0/s800/prisoner109_checkmate.jpg

[constituent]

Umm... I was there for it. I happen to know the original Tea Party people personally, and it wasn't anyone you listed. :rolleyes:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=2477146&postcount=44

[LittleLightShining]

I know, and ur awesome. :)

Thanks, I think you're special, too.


I disagree with this. A leaderless movement, rebellion, revolt, revolution, whatever will never be born of a leader.

A contradiction, yes. Naïveté, no.Definitely not born of a leader, Unfortunately the sovereign gene has been nearly bred out of humanity.

[constituent]

Thanks, I think you're special, too.

Well, they did let me ride the short bus to school every morning.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_2p9QMRZ1S4I/R9aOWPE5pHI/AAAAAAAAASo/4OALoq2Ol8M/s400/short-bus.jpg

They said it was because of my "awesomeness."

[InterestedParticipant]

[Shameless pop culture reference]

This is what Steven Colbert would refer to as "the nut meat."

The real heart of the matter.
We invest so much of our time here discussing our freedom to labor, and we refer to all sorts of historical thought leaders to justify our positions, but how often do we question the fact that most of our discussion and energy is focused on using our labor to create economic value in a Marxist system. We're stuck in a bubble of thought and perception where the vast majority of our focus is either on creating economic output or employing the political system to alter our lives. These are the simulacrum that we live in. Until we see it and step out of it, we'll remain within that system, and therefore within the boundary of controls that are effective on our lives.

[Ethek]

My idea behind Gadsden Union was pointed right at the fractures in the 9/12/teaparty movement.. One of the ultimate goals I stratagized was to reach the lowest common denominator. I narrowed it down to a 'philosphy of liberty' based on John Lockes natural law. Then build a set of criteria for 'accrediting' organizations to the union that would bind them to what amounts to G Edward Griffins Creed of Freedom.

Restricting liberty organizations to a liberty framework and conditions Union style just fine in my mind since they are institutions of the groups members and Unions are by nature meant to promote an agenda. I have no problems having the agenda as promoting an all-inclusive philosphy of liberty by way of G Edward Griffins 'Creed'

I think accredidation would go a long way torwards showing people time and energy would not be co-opted by a neocon agenda or any other alternative to restoring a limited Government Constitution that worked as the founders intended.

http://Gadsdenunion.ning.com

Creed
http://www.freedomforceinternational.org/freedom.cfm?fuseaction=creed

[InterestedParticipant]

My idea behind Gadsden Union was pointed right at the fractures in the 9/12/teaparty movement.. One of the ultimate goals I stratagized was to reach the lowest common denominator. I narrowed it down to a 'philosphy of liberty' based on John Lockes natural law. Then build a set of criteria for 'accrediting' organizations to the union that would bind them to what amounts to G Edward Griffins Creed of Freedom.

Restricting liberty organizations to a liberty framework and conditions Union style just fine in my mind since they are institutions of the groups members and Unions are by nature meant to promote an agenda. I have no problems having the agenda as promoting an all-inclusive philosphy of liberty by way of G Edward Griffins 'Creed'

I think accredidation would go a long way torwards showing people time and energy would not be co-opted by a neocon agenda or any other alternative to restoring a limited Government Constitution that worked as the founders intended.

http://Gadsdenunion.ning.com

Creed
http://www.freedomforceinternational.org/freedom.cfm?fuseaction=creed
And you somehow think that Griffin and his Creed of Freedom is not a co-option in-and-of itself?

Let's just look at his Freedom of Choice Pillar. Since when is Marx's consumption truly inherent in the individual given modern day tactics of propaganda and persuason? We've lost all ability to choose what is in our own self interest, so how is this pillar relevant? Griffin only pretends to address our problem with more false-promises.

The changes required are changes within ourselves, not within some external facade of a system..... a simulacrum that covers what we don't see.

[Keller1967]

And you somehow think that Griffin and his Creed of Freedom is not a co-option in-and-of itself?

Let's just look at his Freedom of Choice Pillar. Since when is Marx's consumption truly inherent in the individual given modern day tactics of propaganda and persuason? We've lost all ability to choose what is in our own self interest, so how is this pillar relevant? Griffin only pretends to address our problem with more false-promises.

The changes required are changes within ourselves, not within some external facade of a system..... a simulacrum that covers what we don't see.

I kind of agree, but if you completely reject the system, the system rejects you - and you die. Had I been raised to live outside of the system, I would be more equipped for it, but as it is my body is frail and weak. Do you have any thoughts or suggestions on this? Have you been about to change yourself?

[InterestedParticipant]

I kind of agree, but if you completely reject the system, the system rejects you - and you die. Had I been raised to live outside of the system, I would be more equipped for it, but as it is my body is frail and weak. Do you have any thoughts or suggestions on this? Have you been about to change yourself?
If this system does not die soon, then humanity will die anyway. It's a Catch-22. It doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to see where all of the biotech, virtual reality tech, AI, robotics, food science, and surveillance technology, etc. is going.

Yes, I've made wholesale changes. This system, and all of its entrapments and techniques is simply not that interesting to me any longer. My labor is invested in personal development, which I define according to my own rule sets. They have lost me forever, except for my random postings on occasion, and that is just fine with me. My soul is more important to me than their system.

[Ethek]

And you somehow think that Griffin and his Creed of Freedom is not a co-option in-and-of itself?

Let's just look at his Freedom of Choice Pillar. Since when is Marx's consumption truly inherent in the individual given modern day tactics of propaganda and persuason? We've lost all ability to choose what is in our own self interest, so how is this pillar relevant? Griffin only pretends to address our problem with more false-promises.

The changes required are changes within ourselves, not within some external facade of a system..... a simulacrum that covers what we don't see.
You are correct... and so am I. The fundamental issue I see in society today is that many people I meet are ill equipped to cope with reality. Most cases seem to be unmet dependency needs that people have not had met by their parents or communities. Interaction with society ranges from being 'uncomfortable' for some to outright anxiety and fear in others. Low grade depression is the biggest systemic problem.

Our system of government right now is enabling for people. Letting people use force of government to deal with issues they do not want to have to deal with as a society. Who wants to be bothered to deal with a hungry needy child... let the state do it. Oh and they can serve me and my neighbor, we are both hungry needy children who didn't quite get everything from our parents we needed.

A framework of freedom ideally will give people the 'opprotunity' to be their own mom and dad, have people meet those dependency needs on their own. A lot of society will have a tantrum, in the most ab noxious way possible, publicly through the media.

We, the producers are the power in society, the means by which government derives its powers... the productive people are not the ones with unmet dependency needs that are so far gone as to be hopeless. The producers can unite.. 'unionize' to stop enabling the enabler. Producers can use trade and barter to cut out government monopoly on distributing devalued units of paper currency. With modern technology to facilitate trade and bartered. Do we need money to facilitate transactions? Sure money makes things easy but its an enabler for government to work totally without regard to its constitutional limits and act as every ones mother.

Its time for society to get a liberty intervention. Unionized producers are they only way I see that happening. Call it 'Galts Gultch' if you'd like.

[Keller1967]

If this system does not die soon, then humanity will die anyway. It's a Catch-22. It doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to see where all of the biotech, virtual reality tech, AI, robotics, food science, and surveillance technology, etc. is going.

Yes, I've made wholesale changes. This system, and all of its entrapments and techniques is simply not that interesting to me any longer. My labor is invested in personal development, which I define according to my own rule sets. They have lost me forever, except for my random postings on occasion, and that is just fine with me. My soul is more important to me than their system.

:)