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LibForestPaul
01-02-2010, 03:40 PM
Is a Senator or Representative allowed to hold dual nationality?
What about Federal Judges , AGs, commissioned officers?

Are there any which hold dual nationality?


I truly hope the answer to all of the above are no.

lynnf
01-02-2010, 03:49 PM
Is a Senator or Representative allowed to hold dual nationality?
What about Federal Judges , AGs, commissioned officers?

Are there any which hold dual nationality?


I truly hope the answer to all of the above are no.

former "Homeland Security" head Michael Chertoff had/has dual citizenship with Israel

also White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emmanuel

apparently there are no limits

lynn

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
01-02-2010, 04:08 PM
Is a Senator or Representative allowed to hold dual nationality?
What about Federal Judges , AGs, commissioned officers?

Are there any which hold dual nationality?


I truly hope the answer to all of the above are no.

The border between us and the outside world is supposed to protect our Civil Purpose and the Formal Culture that we inherited from our Founding Fathers from the legal precedence that we inherited from tyranny, with this being the past traditions we brought with us from our lessor cultures.
We aren't supposed to have a government ruling over the people, with the emphasis placed on government; rather, the intention of our Founding Fathers was to establish a necessary tyranny over the people for the betterment of their happiness, with the emphasis placed on the people.
As the tyrannies will tend to band together in their quest to prostitute the people, our borders should be used to protect ourselves from them. There is a difference between us and them. A border should be drawn between us, as we are a New World established on a self evident and unalienable Truth, and them, as they are the Old World ruled by the legal precedence of past traditions.
Either one can be on this side of the border or the other, but not both.

Zippyjuan
01-02-2010, 04:10 PM
Can you support your claims of their dual citizenships? I can find no reliable reports to support that.

Zippyjuan
01-02-2010, 04:59 PM
Arnold does retain his Austrian citizenship but he is not a Federal government official.

erowe1
01-02-2010, 05:31 PM
Is a Senator or Representative allowed to hold dual nationality?
What about Federal Judges , AGs, commissioned officers?

Are there any which hold dual nationality?


I truly hope the answer to all of the above are no.

Madeline Albright is was born in Czechoslovakia and I believe is still considered a citizen of the Czech Republic. She flirted with the possibility of running for president of the Czech Republic after ending her tenure as Secretary of State.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Albright

But why do you hope that the answer to all your questions is no? Do you really think that we should all be dusqualified from any of those offices the minute some other government, using laws over which the USA has no control, declares that we are its subjects? If China decides tomorrow to legislate that it considers all American citizens also to be citizens of China, should that act on the part of the Chinese government disqualify us from anything here?

erowe1
01-02-2010, 05:33 PM
former "Homeland Security" head Michael Chertoff had/has dual citizenship with Israel

also White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emmanuel

apparently there are no limits

lynn

Doesn't Israel consider all Jews everywhere automatic citizens of Israel?

If they do (and I don't know it for a fact, it might just be a myth I heard), then that would be a good example of the kind of thing I was talking about.

0zzy
01-02-2010, 05:47 PM
I don't mind dual citizenship, but not for elected officials. Private citizens should be allowed to do so though.

Toureg89
01-02-2010, 06:16 PM
Is a Senator or Representative allowed to hold dual nationality?
What about Federal Judges , AGs, commissioned officers?

Are there any which hold dual nationality?


I truly hope the answer to all of the above are no.

uh, i don't see how me having dual citizenship can prevent me from holding any of those positions...

i was still born in america, and am an american citizen.

but because my dad is moroccan, due to moroccan government policy, i am also entitled to moroccan citizenship...

davesxj
01-02-2010, 06:20 PM
I'd like to have dual citizenship right about now..

Dieseler
01-02-2010, 06:21 PM
uh, i don't see how me having dual citizenship can prevent me from holding any of those positions...

i was still born in america, and am an american citizen.

but because my dad is moroccan, due to moroccan government policy, i am also entitled to moroccan citizenship...

I think there is a legitimate question as to loyalty to whom in the case of dual citizenship and holding political office.
Being entitled to a citizenship and then accepting it is another thing. Can't really blame someone for being entitled to something but then accepting it and then thinking you can represent me with that dual loyalty is another thing entirely.
I'll pass.
Too bad we can't pass on Cabinet Positions and Appointments huh?

erowe1
01-02-2010, 06:30 PM
I think there is a legitimate question as to loyalty to whom in the case of dual citizenship and holding political office.
Being entitled to a citizenship and then accepting it is another thing. Can't really blame someone for being entitled to something but then accepting it and then thinking you can represent me with that dual loyalty is another thing entirely.
I'll pass.
Too bad we can't pass on Cabinet Positions and Appointments huh?

What do you mean by accepting it?

Dieseler
01-02-2010, 06:34 PM
What do you mean by accepting it?

If you are Entitled to something you do not have to accept it.
You could in fact denounce it.

Dunedain
01-02-2010, 06:34 PM
former "Homeland Security" head Michael Chertoff had/has dual citizenship with Israel

also White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emmanuel

apparently there are no limits

lynn

Interestingly, many of the engineering and IT projects that are headed up by homeland security you need a certain security clearance that is only provided to U.S. Citizens. I find it laughable that Chertoff would be at the top of this organiation. I suppose he is a U.S. citizen though, but still.

Rahm Emmanuel actually lived in Israel and volunteered in the Israeli Army during the first gulf war. Chief of Staff is a federal executive branch cabinet posting.

erowe1
01-02-2010, 06:36 PM
If you are Entitled to something you do not have to accept it.
You could in fact denounce it.

Denounce it how?

Just by standing up in front of your friends and saying, "I denounce my citizenchip of that other country."?

And if so, does that mean we all have to figure out if there's some government out there somewhere that considers us citizens of the country it rules over, just so we can denounce that citizenship so that some people here won't question our loyalty to the federal government of the USA?

Dieseler
01-02-2010, 06:39 PM
Denounce it how?

Just by standing up in front of your friends and saying, "I denounce my citizenchip of that other country."?


That would be a good start.


And if so, does that mean we all have to figure out if there's some government out there somewhere that considers us citizens of the country it rules over, just so we can denounce that citizenship so that some people here won't question our loyalty to the federal government of the USA?


I'm pretty sure you would know.
If you don't, then how could anyone else?
:rolleyes:

Dieseler
01-02-2010, 06:41 PM
Being Entitled : qualified for by right according to law; "we are all entitled to equal protection under the law"
Doesn't mean one has to accept the entitlement.

pacelli
01-02-2010, 06:43 PM
Denounce it how?

Just by standing up in front of your friends and saying, "I denounce my citizenchip of that other country."?

And if so, does that mean we all have to figure out if there's some government out there somewhere that considers us citizens of the country it rules over, just so we can denounce that citizenship so that some people here won't question our loyalty to the federal government of the USA?

Why on earth would you want to be a citizen of ANY country?

erowe1
01-02-2010, 06:49 PM
I'm pretty sure you would know.
If you don't, then how could anyone else?


The government that declares you a citizen of its country would know. That's all that makes you a citizen there. That could happen without your knowing. Couldn't it?

How do you go about finding out what all governments out there consider you their subjects...I mean citizens?

erowe1
01-02-2010, 06:51 PM
Why on earth would you want to be a citizen of ANY country?

I don't understand your question. Who said anything about wanting to be?

Dieseler
01-02-2010, 06:55 PM
The government that declares you a citizen of its country would know. That's all that makes you a citizen there. That could happen without your knowing. Couldn't it?

How do you go about finding out what all governments out there consider you their subjects...I mean citizens?

You're making shit up.
Lol.
That doesn't even fall under the definition of entitlement or a private citizens acceptance of citizenship does it?
You are either entitled to it or you are not.
You either accept it or you don't.
Can you provide me one instance of a recognized Nation offering a citizen of another Nation entitlement to citizenship without any good reason or without that person having applied for it?
Nope, you can not.
Circular non argument.


I disagree. I use other arbitrary physical features to divide people into races instead of melanin levels, such as right and left-handedness, whether or not someone has a widows peak, and whether their ring fingers are longer than their index fingers or vice versa.

Ahh, I see now.
You're just in that mood.

erowe1
01-02-2010, 06:59 PM
That doesn't even fall under the definition of entitlement or a private citizens acceptance of citizenship does it?

Of course not. That's the essence of my whole question.

Where's this idea of accepting and denouncing citizenship come from?

Where do we go to find out all the governments that consider us their subjects, or rather their citizens, so that we can either accept or denounce their declarations about us by standing up in front of our friends and giving a speech?

Dieseler
01-02-2010, 07:01 PM
Of course not. That's the essence of my whole question.

Where's this idea of accepting and denouncing citizenship come from?

Where do we go to find out all the governments that consider us their subjects, or rather their citizens, so that we can either accept or denounce their declarations about us by standing up in front of our friends and giving a speech?

If you can answer the last question in my last post I will continue to play, otherwise...
It's not worth the trouble.

ChaosControl
01-02-2010, 07:01 PM
My concern would be they would potentially do things in interest of their other nation at the expense of this one. It would probably be better if dual citizenship was not allowed when holding public office. At least not for state wide or federal office. I suppose a city council position isn't a big deal.

erowe1
01-02-2010, 07:11 PM
Can you provide me one instance of a recognized Nation offering a citizen of another Nation entitlement to citizenship without any good reason or without that person having applied for it?


First of all, I don't know what you consider good reasons. As I see it, there aren't any good reasons. Any claim any government anywhere wants to make about my being one of its subjects is illegitimate.

But supposing there are good reasons, how can anyone possibly answer your question? Are we supposed to research and figure out what reasons every government in the world uses for declaring who it thinks it has a right to rule over so that we can then figure out if we meet those criteria?

What about the guy above whose father was born in some other country, and now the government of that country calls him a citizen? Is that a reason you consider good? And what if this poor guy didn't know about that citizenship? Would it be his duty to go find out about it so he could renounce it?

And if you consider being a citizen of some country (i.e. a subject of some government) such an important thing anyway, why should anyone have to renounce it? It's already the case that the federal government of the USA refuses to acknowledge dual citizenship for its citzens (i.e. its subjects). Can we really help it if other governments don't do the same?

Umbro2914
01-02-2010, 09:42 PM
the United States does not recognize duel citizenship. If you have American citizenship, then you are an American. Case closed.
All you people argued against duel citizenship, and duel citizen public officials need to take a second and think about it... cut the conspiracy and look at it objectivly. Maybe they imigrated to America, and when they became Americans simply didnt revoke their other citizenship; or maybe their parents got them the other citizenship when they were young so it would be easier to travel, or even maybe they just had a strong connection with both lands. Is that so bad? I'm sure Texas has a lot more in common with Mexico then with Alaska....

Dieseler
01-02-2010, 09:45 PM
Duel lol.

Toureg89
01-02-2010, 10:27 PM
i would hope that most of the members here would have more allegiance to the Constitution, and not the state or federal governments.

as such, being an office holder and having duel citizenship, i dont see how it would mean an automatic conflict with ones duty to obey, uphold, and defend the Constitution...

LibForestPaul
01-02-2010, 10:27 PM
the United States does not recognize duel citizenship. If you have American citizenship, then you are an American. Case closed.
All you people argued against duel citizenship, and duel citizen public officials need to take a second and think about it... cut the conspiracy and look at it objectivly. Maybe they imigrated to America, and when they became Americans simply didnt revoke their other citizenship; or maybe their parents got them the other citizenship when they were young so it would be easier to travel, or even maybe they just had a strong connection with both lands. Is that so bad? I'm sure Texas has a lot more in common with Mexico then with Alaska....

A Chinese immigrants to the US and becomes a citizen. He never renounces his Chinese citizenship. He is a commander now in the US navy. The US is having conflicts with China regarding Taiwan. His coming orders may result in the deaths of dozens of Chinese.

How does he maintain loyalty to both countries?
Is he a traitor if he alerts his Chinese brethren?
Is he a murderer if his orders result in numerous Chinese casualties?

LibForestPaul
01-02-2010, 10:36 PM
As for state officials, did not want to introduce Federalism into the mix.
As far as cabinet officials, execute privilege is quite powerful.

Keeping it to federal officials, both civilian and military. Civilian since they do direct quite a bit of the DOD.

1000-points-of-fright
01-02-2010, 11:26 PM
The United States Oath of Allegiance (officially referred to as the "Oath of Allegiance," 8 C.F.R. Part 337 (2008)) is an oath that must be taken by all immigrants who wish to become United States citizens.

The current oath is as follows:

I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.

Although this site (https://www.usimmigrationsupport.org/dual-citizenship.html?gclid=CNSGh9W9h58CFRTyDAod4zY_cg) says US dual citizenship is allowed. So why the oath with all the denouncing and abjuring?

Dieseler
01-03-2010, 12:52 AM
Duel lol.

Umbro2914
01-03-2010, 10:37 AM
A Chinese immigrants to the US and becomes a citizen. He never renounces his Chinese citizenship. He is a commander now in the US navy. The US is having conflicts with China regarding Taiwan. His coming orders may result in the deaths of dozens of Chinese.

How does he maintain loyalty to both countries?
Is he a traitor if he alerts his Chinese brethren?
Is he a murderer if his orders result in numerous Chinese casualties?

Korematsu all over again?

RED
01-03-2010, 10:53 AM
Only people who have the President's ear, either party of course, are permitted to have dual-citizenship. Of course we understand that America fighting Israel's enemies over in the ME for the last 8 years, is merely a coincidence.

erowe1
01-03-2010, 12:31 PM
The United States Oath of Allegiance (officially referred to as the "Oath of Allegiance," 8 C.F.R. Part 337 (2008)) is an oath that must be taken by all immigrants who wish to become United States citizens.

The current oath is as follows:

I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.

Although this site (https://www.usimmigrationsupport.org/dual-citizenship.html?gclid=CNSGh9W9h58CFRTyDAod4zY_cg) says US dual citizenship is allowed. So why the oath with all the denouncing and abjuring?

Immigrants here are required to renounce any citizenship they have in other countries (i.e. subjugation to other governments). So our own government considers them only American citizens and not dual citizens. However, that doesn't bind the governments of those other countries, which can (and many do) consider them dual citizens.

I know a guy who was born in Brazil when his parents were missionaries there and he is a US citizen and considered by our own government only a US citizen. But in Brazil their government still considers him a citizen of Brazil as well, and they don't care if he renounces his citizenship there or not.

This is why I don't see why dual citizenship should be an automatic problem. Why should we punish anyone because some other government declares them one it its subjects, whether they renounce citizenship there or not?

erowe1
01-03-2010, 12:36 PM
A Chinese immigrants to the US and becomes a citizen. He never renounces his Chinese citizenship. He is a commander now in the US navy. The US is having conflicts with China regarding Taiwan. His coming orders may result in the deaths of dozens of Chinese.

How does he maintain loyalty to both countries?
Is he a traitor if he alerts his Chinese brethren?
Is he a murderer if his orders result in numerous Chinese casualties?

And by loyalty to "countries" you mean loyalty to governments. Right? What all you people who don't like dual citizenship are really concerned about is that you want us all to swear allegiance to the federal government (which is not the same thing as the American people--in fact the federal government is an enemy of the American people), and you don't like that some people wouldn't have that loyalty to that entity.

Because legal citizenship doesn't define an individual's relationship to other individuals. It defines their relationship to a government.

RED
01-03-2010, 12:41 PM
Immigrants here are required to renounce any citizenship they have in other countries (i.e. subjugation to other governments). So our own government considers them only American citizens and not dual citizens. However, that doesn't bind the governments of those other countries, which can (and many do) consider them dual citizens.

I know a guy who was born in Brazil when his parents were missionaries there and he is a US citizen and considered by our own government only a US citizen. But in Brazil their government still considers him a citizen of Brazil as well, and they don't care if he renounces his citizenship there or not.

This is why I don't see why dual citizenship should be an automatic problem. Why should we punish anyone because some other government declares them one it its subjects, whether they renounce citizenship there or not?


Dual citizenship probably wouldn't be a problem for a Brazilian. I don't think I ever heard of Brazilians trying to dominate the world, and neither do I see Brazilians ensconced in significant numbers of positions and indeed influential positions throughout the US Government. I don't feel we have anything to fear from Brazilians. They haven't been expelled from a hundred or so nations/states down through history for trying to subvert their governments.

A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and he carries his banners openly. But the traitor moves among those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the galleys, heard in the very hall of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor—he speaks in the accents familiar to his victims, and wears their face and their garment, and he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation—he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of a city—he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to be feared.......Cicero, 42 B.C.E.

erowe1
01-03-2010, 12:52 PM
Dual citizenship probably wouldn't be a problem for a Brazilian. I don't think I ever heard of Brazilians trying to dominate the world, and neither do I see Brazilians ensconced in significant numbers of positions and indeed influential positions throughout the US Government. I don't feel we have anything to fear from Brazilians. They haven't been expelled from a hundred or so nations/states down through history for trying to subvert their governments.

A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and he carries his banners openly. But the traitor moves among those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the galleys, heard in the very hall of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor—he speaks in the accents familiar to his victims, and wears their face and their garment, and he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation—he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of a city—he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to be feared.......Cicero, 42 B.C.E.

So the crucial issue then isn't really about dual citizenship at all. It's about participation in efforts to take money and power from people (in this case American people) without their consent and giving it to some government (in your thinking, the state of Israel most importantly).

I share your concern for that problem. But I wonder if there is any government anywhere that the American people have as many legitimate complaints against than the federal government of the USA, moreso than Israel or anywhere else. And if this is the case, then the people we need to be most concerned about are those with loyalty to that government. But then, people with loyalty to the federal government of the USA are US citizens, by definition. I wonder if perhaps it is US citizenship more than any other citizenship that we should all be renouncing and demanding that others renounce. Since, to swear allegiance to the federal government of the USA, as a US citizen, is to give one's loyalty to the greatest enemy of the American people in all the earth.

Don't mind me. I'm just idly musing here.

RED
01-03-2010, 01:04 PM
So the crucial issue then isn't really about dual citizenship at all. It's about participation in efforts to take money and power from people (in this case American people) without their consent and giving it to some government (in your thinking, the state of Israel most importantly).

I share your concern for that problem. But I wonder if there is any government anywhere that the American people have as many legitimate complaints against than the federal government of the USA, moreso than Israel or anywhere else. And if this is the case, then the people we need to be most concerned about are those with loyalty to that government. But then, people with loyalty to the federal government of the USA are US citizens, by definition. I wonder if perhaps it is US citizenship more than any other citizenship that we should all be renouncing and demanding that others renounce. Since, to swear allegiance to the federal government of the USA, as a US citizen, is to give one's loyalty to the greatest enemy of the American people in all the earth.

Don't mind me. I'm just idly musing here.

Are we swearing allegiance to the US Government? Why would we be required to swear allegiance to a fully corrupted government that seems to be following the commands of an outside entity? Only the American people can keep America free, and when this freedom and liberty is threatened, it is we, the American people who must act to remove these traitors. Why should Americans tolerate a government that subordinates OUR interests to a particular country or minority? Or a government that pretends those interests are identical to America's? And even the status quo isn't enough. This certain entity just keeps pushing and pushing for total compliance. Any resistance is considered a sure sign of hatred and is met with apocalyptic shrieks. It's intolerable. Of course, this government, the US Government has become a tyranny run by outsiders. Our politicians are bought and paid for. Our former government is no longer of, by, or for, the people, therefore it is run by common criminals who need to be removed.

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
01-03-2010, 01:08 PM
The United States Oath of Allegiance (officially referred to as the "Oath of Allegiance," 8 C.F.R. Part 337 (2008)) is an oath that must be taken by all immigrants who wish to become United States citizens.

The current oath is as follows:

I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.

Although this site (https://www.usimmigrationsupport.org/dual-citizenship.html?gclid=CNSGh9W9h58CFRTyDAod4zY_cg) says US dual citizenship is allowed. So why the oath with all the denouncing and abjuring?

Interestingly, a person doesn't need to take an oath to become an American, but oaths are given to protect the necessary tyranny (organized crime) established over Americans. If you read the self evident Truth declared by our Founding Fathers in The Declaration of Indendence carefully, then by natural law all human beings in the world are Americans.
Like I've told my sons often, we can choose to join the military aristocracy that necessary tyranny has set up to protect itself, but we are born into the militia that protects the people.

erowe1
01-03-2010, 01:12 PM
Are we swearing allegiance to the US Government?
That's what the title "the United States of America" refers to, a corporate entity which is equal to the federal government. When immigrants take an oath promising to take up arms to defend "the United States of America," they aren't being made to promise to defend you and me, they're being made to promise to defend the federal government.


Why would we be required to swear allegiance to a fully corrupted government that seems to be following the commands of an outside entity?

Well, think about who it is that is requiring people to swear allegiance to the federal government, and that will tell you why that requirement exists (clue: it is the federal government itself that requires people to swear allegiance to the federal government).


Only the American people can keep America free, and when this freedom and liberty is threatened, it is we, the American people who must act to remove these traitors. Why should Americans tolerate a government that subordinates OUR interests to a particular country or minority? Or a government that pretends those interests are identical to America's? And even the status quo isn't enough. This certain entity just keeps pushing and pushing for total compliance. Any resistance is considered a sure sign of hatred and is met with apocalyptic shrieks. It's intolerable. Of course, this government, the US Government has become a tyranny run by outsiders. Our politicians are bought and paid for. Our former government is no longer of, by, or for, the people, therefore it is run by common criminals who need to be removed.

In other words, if we want to be on the side of the American people, and to give our allegiance to them, then we must at the same time side ourselves against that entity, the federal government, which subjugates us against our will. But then, that's the exact opposite of what a US citizen is.

LibForestPaul
01-03-2010, 01:55 PM
New naturalization test and interview

There is a new naturalization test that is being utilized for all N-400 applications filed on or after October 1, 2008.[12] If the applicant filed the N-400 application before October 1, 2008 then the applicant may choose to take the new test or the old test. The new test examines the applicant's knowledge of American society and the English language. Sample questions and answers are published by the USCIS in English, Spanish, Chinese, Tagalog, and Vietnamese.[13]

Definitely interested now regarding Chinese.

Should a federal bureaucrat of the US Government be allowed to hold two passports? (They can from what I have read)
Should/do they need to openly denounce their allegiance to foreign government?
Should this denouncement be sent to foreign consulate?

Not too interested in citizens who hold dual nationalities.