In-Fighting and Strategy

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Everyone here knows me, and my views on how to approach campaigning and the like. I re-listened to this, this morning and it reinvigorated me and strengthened what I've been trying to say on these forums about the content of liberty-campaigns.

YouTube - Murray N. Rothbard: Libertarianism (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONS33ukkTtE)

I think we would all learn a great deal if everyone of us listened to this intently. What we are arguing about concerning campaigning has been rehashed and done before, and 20, 30, 40+ years ago at that. I think a genuine reflection on strategy is needed especially in these times.

Highlights:


Message must be radical in nature.



Must emphasize a transitional period, however this period must not contradict with our stated goals. (IE, abolish income tax, but do not in its steed hike sales tax or create a new tax in its place, for instance)



Principles must be adhered to stringently.


Advance and highlight our Philosophy.


Emphasize the moral arguement (Rouse mens hearts and minds) and use utilitarian arguements as secondary empiricism.

Outreach:


Target any and all Anti-Government persons and groups. Appeal on Philosophic grounds.

Avid Gun Control opponents (Note: This isn't targeted at the sell-out establishment NRA)
Drug sympathizers and users.
Tax opponents.
Privacy proponents.


What is meant by outreach? This means when you campaign highlight the issues that the people you are talking to agree with us on without compromising our principles and philosophy (So they agree that taxes should be lower. Sell them on moral and philosophic grounds for the abolishment of the IRS). When you create a bond through an issue, remember to always reiterate your philosophic standing. Once you do this, you can then show how it affects other areas where they may not agree with you on. For instance, when talking to people who believe we should have no restrictions on gun ownership, make sure they understand our position in agreement. Private Property rights and Natural Law. Once you do that a little light bulb clicks on and you are then outside the realm of utilitarian round-about illogical arguements. You spark the underlying truth. After you do that, then you can slowly get them to accept our radicalism. Talk about how Income Tax is an intrusion of our Natural Rights through Natural Law and Private Property. You rile mens souls, instead of talking about how it's harmful. They don't want to hear the intricasies. Make sure to show how it is inherent theft, and immoral. This, you can do with all other issues also.

If for no other reason to watch this, you will laugh your ass off throughout.

[Pennsylvania]

cool video

[LibertyEagle]

Highlights:


Message must be radical in nature.



Must emphasize a transitional period, however this period must not contradict with our stated goals. (IE, abolish income tax, but do not in its steed hike sales tax or create a new tax in its place, for instance)



Principles must be adhered to stringently.


Advance and highlight our Philosophy.


Emphasize the moral arguement (Rouse mens hearts and minds) and use utilitarian arguements as secondary empiricism.



Much of what he said was his strategy for advancing the Libertarian political party. For example, the first point you mentioned, "message must be radical in nature", he said was important so that people might be enticed to jump parties. In that, if they didn't see a huge difference, they likely wouldn't switch.

Interesting video though.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Much of what he said was his strategy for advancing the Libertarian political party. For example, the first point you mentioned, "message must be radical in nature", he said was important so that people might be enticed to jump parties. In that, if they didn't see a huge difference, they likely wouldn't switch.

Interesting video though.

If you haven't noticed most people jumped ship and aborted the GOP. The GOP is roughly 25% of the country, not exactly in a greater position than the LP, except in recognition by the Media and laws that favor them for ballot access. We have to entice people to join, don't we? What happened to libertarians infiltrating and taking over the GOP?

Half the country is nearly Independant. Think of what he said and apply it to the GOP.

Rothbard also said it must be radical in nature because it is after all the extension of our philosophy :p

Glad you enjoyed it.

[Liberty Star]

Good points. However not as many people are motivated by tax issues as are with issues like foreign freedom projects and spending trillions on foreign reconstructions while there is an economic crisis at home. That should be one of the highlights.

BTW, what is with the "in-fighting" in title? That is sort of negative view on a healthy debate on issues.

[kahless]

Good points. However not as many people are motivated by tax issues as are with issues like foreign freedom projects and spending trillions on foreign reconstructions while there is an economic crisis at home. That should be one of the highlights.

I think it would be the other way around since the tax issue effects everyone where as there is no draft and only a minority of the population has family serving overseas.

[Liberty Star]

I think it would be the other way around since the tax issue effects everyone where as there is no draft and only a minority of the population has family serving overseas.

That's if we use tax in the broader sense as people being taxed by losing their houses, jobs, hope about future etc, that is directly connected to exodus of wealth out of US in recent years and does motivate most.

But a tax rate issue effecting those making over 250K or even 100K will not carry many voters to the booth.

That's what I meant above.

[cbc58]

Good luck with that.

This is the problem right here: "Principles must be adhered to stringently."

All talk - no action. Take action, live it and IF people feel the same way they will join the "movement".... if you define who and what the movement is. Refuse to pay income taxes - take the heat - rebel. Do it and just don't talk about it.

Just being real.

[ClayTrainor]

Good luck with that.

This is the problem right here: "Principles must be adhered to stringently."

All talk - no action. Take action, live it and IF people feel the same way they will join the "movement".... if you define who and what the movement is. Refuse to pay income taxes - take the heat - rebel. Do it and just don't talk about it.

Just being real.

So go to jail or shut up? I don't like your options, i think i'll keep trying to educate people.

[cbc58]

you can't expect people outside of the RP "movement" to do what you want them to do without doing it yourself. that's my point.

saying that "principals must be adhered to stringently"... and not adhering to them yourself is all talk and no action.

[ClayTrainor]

you can't expect people outside of the RP "movement" to do what you want them to do without doing it yourself. that's my point.

saying that "principals must be adhered to stringently"... and not adhering to them yourself is all talk and no action.

When a robber holds someone at gunpoint, and the victim gives up his money, do you blame the victim for not taking a bullet?

By your logic, you must take the bullet, in order to hold the principle that theft is wrong. I argue that you can still hold the principle that theft is wrong, and stand on it firmly, without taking the bullet.

The best activism is exposing the gun in the room, not taking a bullet and losing your voice.

YouTube - Is Taxation Moral? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoIjEa4Cf-c&feature=player_embedded)

[cbc58]

two totally different things. you are just arguing for agruments sake. many logic arguments here are illogical.

my response is directed specifically at this post and not "in general". personally i'm not going to stop paying taxes and go to jail. i'm going to try and educate people which is what I feel is the best way to go.

[ClayTrainor]

two totally different things. you are just arguing for agruments sake. many logic arguments here are illogical.

:confused:

What are 2 totally different things? Taxation and theft?

The robber takes the money by force... the government takes the money by force...



my response is directed specifically at this post and not "in general". personally i'm not going to stop paying taxes and go to jail. i'm going to try and educate people which is what I feel is the best way to go. I agree that educating people is the best way to go.

You can still hold the principle that taxation is wrong, and speak out against it effectively, without taking the bullet / going to jail for it.

[FrankRep]

The Future of Austrian Economics

Murray Rothbard

YouTube - The Future of Austrian Economics (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWdUIuID8ag)

[FrankRep]

Who's going to be the next big Mises / Rothbard leader?

[acptulsa]

Who's going to be the next big Mises / Rothbard leader?

Dr. Paul doesn't suit you? How about Dr. Paul, then? Like him better?

[LibertyWorker]

sorry this might be a little off topic.and I know people here have mixed feelings about noam chomsky.

but I thought it would just pass it along that his documentary/biography "manufacturing consent" is free online at Hulu.com. I watched it last night. And it had some good stuff in it.

Sorry its little off topic but I didn't want to start a new thread just for that.

[BuddyRey]

Who's going to be the next big Mises / Rothbard leader?

Why, Tom Woods of course! ;):)

YouTube - SA@TAC - Interview with Tom Woods 12/31/09 Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQIqYaLqzww&feature=sub)

[constituent]

Who's going to be the next big Mises / Rothbard leader?

well hell, if no one else is gunna volunteer...

[constituent]

Dr. Paul doesn't suit you? How about Dr. Paul, then? Like him better?

Dr. Paul, Rothbardian? Are you suggesting that Ron Paul is a closet anarcho-capitalist?

Could it be that Ron Paul really does want to smash the state after all?






Naaah, that's just silly.

[Nate]

Dr. Paul, Rothbardian? Are you suggesting that Ron Paul is a closet anarcho-capitalist?

Could it be that Ron Paul really does want to smash the state after all?






Naaah, that's just silly.

I think he sympathizes with Anarcho-Capitalism & respects the philosophical consistency(after all he does have ALOT of A-C allies & friends), he just doesn't agree that it is the best path to achieve a free society. Either that or he is a closet A-C and like me, realizes that a transitional constitutionalist minarchist society is needed before Voluntaryism is even a possibility. I'll put my money on the first one though. That's OK with me. A constitutionalist republican minarchy would be a MAJOR improvement.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Who's going to be the next big Mises / Rothbard leader?

We all ready have two, Hans-Hermann Hoppe and Walter Block (regarding books), as for speaking, seminars, lectures, activism, etc. that would probably go to Lew and Thomas Woods.

That said, there won't be another Rothbard.....Woods comes close, but he doesn't share the overt rigor of talking about smashing the State all the time :p

[reardenstone]

Is there any hope of building the Libertarian party and would that be easier through activism and legislature for ballot access than trying to educate and reform the Republican party and taking it back from the newts?

[Derek Johnson]

Everyone here knows me, and my views on how to approach campaigning and the like. I re-listened to this, this morning and it reinvigorated me and strengthened what I've been trying to say on these forums about the content of liberty-campaigns.

YouTube - Murray N. Rothbard: Libertarianism (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONS33ukkTtE)

I think we would all learn a great deal if everyone of us listened to this intently. What we are arguing about concerning campaigning has been rehashed and done before, and 20, 30, 40+ years ago at that. I think a genuine reflection on strategy is needed especially in these times.

Highlights:


Message must be radical in nature.



Must emphasize a transitional period, however this period must not contradict with our stated goals. (IE, abolish income tax, but do not in its steed hike sales tax or create a new tax in its place, for instance)



Principles must be adhered to stringently.


Advance and highlight our Philosophy.


Emphasize the moral arguement (Rouse mens hearts and minds) and use utilitarian arguements as secondary empiricism.

Outreach:


Target any and all Anti-Government persons and groups. Appeal on Philosophic grounds.

Avid Gun Control opponents (Note: This isn't targeted at the sell-out establishment NRA)
Drug sympathizers and users.
Tax opponents.
Privacy proponents.


What is meant by outreach? This means when you campaign highlight the issues that the people you are talking to agree with us on without compromising our principles and philosophy (So they agree that taxes should be lower. Sell them on moral and philosophic grounds for the abolishment of the IRS). When you create a bond through an issue, remember to always reiterate your philosophic standing. Once you do this, you can then show how it affects other areas where they may not agree with you on. For instance, when talking to people who believe we should have no restrictions on gun ownership, make sure they understand our position in agreement. Private Property rights and Natural Law. Once you do that a little light bulb clicks on and you are then outside the realm of utilitarian round-about illogical arguements. You spark the underlying truth. After you do that, then you can slowly get them to accept our radicalism. Talk about how Income Tax is an intrusion of our Natural Rights through Natural Law and Private Property. You rile mens souls, instead of talking about how it's harmful. They don't want to hear the intricasies. Make sure to show how it is inherent theft, and immoral. This, you can do with all other issues also.

If for no other reason to watch this, you will laugh your ass off throughout.

Watched every second. Before there was Ron, there was Murray.

Brilliant, this man, like Paul, was smart enough to trust the market.

[Derek Johnson]

We all ready have two, Hans-Hermann Hoppe and Walter Block (regarding books), as for speaking, seminars, lectures, activism, etc. that would probably go to Lew and Thomas Woods.

That said, there won't be another Rothbard.....Woods comes close, but he doesn't share the overt rigor of talking about smashing the State all the time :p

Give Tom some time. He's not far from Murray. His comment about Paul not being invited to the Anti-Tax something or other in Iowa was classic.

"It's like having a convention about 'The Riddle' and not inviting Batman."

But don't miss the point. We are all Rothbards, and we must all learn everyday and do as Rothbard did: educate and awaken others.

[acptulsa]

Dr. Paul, Rothbardian? Are you suggesting that Ron Paul is a closet anarcho-capitalist?

Could it be that Ron Paul really does want to smash the state after all?






Naaah, that's just silly.

If you are a member of that group, namely a group comprised of people who don't think they've a right to lead and know they have no intention of following, I suppose you just have to take what you can get...