G Edward Griffin how to restore freedom: We need to to be POWER SEEKERS

[MN Patriot]

This video is 1 hour 23 minutes long, but well worth it. Griffin has a great message of how to restore our freedom. So many posts in these forums ask what to do? Head for the hills? Hide? Pretend all is well? Griffin tells us what we need to do: seek power.

An Idea Whose Time Has Come - G. Edward Griffin - Freedom Force International (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6015291679758430958#49m40s)

Here is his website: http://www.freedomforceinternational.org/

It is a new year, now is the time to take action.

[Chaohinon]

I can agree to an extent, although I don't understand the fetish folks have with trying to plow their way into the current power structure, rather than build a new one.

By constructing an alternative power structure (or several), we could easily amass all the wayward outcasts who will never have success in mainstream politics (libertarians, old guard conservatives, greens, constitutionalists) into an upwardly mobile movement that can forcefully halt the injustices of the u.s. government.

IE: rather than trying to protest police brutality and hoping the same government that sanctions it will put a stop to it, we could be actively taking down officers who engage in such conduct. Same thing for military regiments, corrupt politicians, and corporations colluding with the state. With a significant number of people willing to act as agents of justice, we wouldn't have to worry about hoping to find it in the decaying halls of the current court system.

Take action now!

Dual Power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power)

[YumYum]

I can agree to an extent, although I don't understand the fetish folks have with trying to plow their way into the current power structure, rather than build a new one.

By constructing an alternative power structure (or several), we could easily amass all the wayward outcasts who will never have success in mainstream politics (libertarians, old guard conservatives, greens, constitutionalists) into an upwardly mobile movement that can forcefully halt the injustices of the u.s. government.

IE: rather than trying to protest police brutality and hoping the same government that sanctions it will put a stop to it, we could be actively taking down officers who engage in such conduct. Same thing for military regiments, corrupt politicians, and corporations colluding with the state. With a significant number of people willing to act as agents of justice, we wouldn't have to worry about hoping to find it in the decaying halls of the current court system.

Take action now!

Dual Power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power)

How? by blowing up buildings from the comfort of our computers?:confused:

[MN Patriot]

IE: rather than trying to protest police brutality and hoping the same government that sanctions it will put a stop to it, we could be actively taking down officers who engage in such conduct. Same thing for military regiments, corrupt politicians, and corporations colluding with the state. With a significant number of people willing to act as agents of justice, we wouldn't have to worry about hoping to find it in the decaying halls of the current court system.

Take action now!


Birchibald T. Barlow: [on the radio] I want all of you out there to do everything in your power to see that Bob is set free!
Moe Szyslak: All right, you heard the man.
[He takes a box out from under the bar]
Moe Szyslak: Everybody, one grenade each.
Barney Gumble: Moe, I think he meant through non-violent, grassroots, poltical action.

[CCTelander]

Same old plan with a new paint job.

And it's worked so very well to date.

[MN Patriot]

Same old plan with a new paint job.

And it's worked so very well to date.

And your suggestion is....?

...nothing. Which will accomplish exactly nothing.

[Stary Hickory]

The problem always has been that government power always attracts those who would use force and violence to exploit and steal from others......liberty minded folks just want to be left alone, hence the reason so few seek government office.

Liberty folks are defensively minded. And will only fight when backed into a corner. I think America is backed into that corner with big government and the statist wielders of force and violence threatening our every move. I think we will see some changes, and along with that more people seeking office to defend liberty from the assholes that think they have a right to control everyone elses' lives.

[CCTelander]

And your suggestion is....?

...nothing. Which will accomplish exactly nothing.

I've made quite a few suggestions over the years. You might even find some of them on this very forum. The question then becomes, are you willing to try something different?

[Cowlesy]

If you want to restore the Constitutional Republic, do as the Neoconservatives, did.

[Andrew-Austin]

Griffin just figures if this strategy worked for statist/fabian socialists, then it can also work for us. The system is such that it inherently favors the corruption of their aims though. He wants us to beat them at their own game.

[stilltrying]

This is ironic. By becoming everything that you hate you can beat the system. Being an individualist and trying to hold onto that individualist spirit by pretend, become a collectivist.

[stilltrying]

What office does Griffin hold? What is he running for? I guess the cats out of the bag for him so no game for him.

[fj45lvr]

Don't try to "take over" the WHOLE enchilada....start with one sovereign State first (and then that State can become an example to the rest).

Easy picking: Alaska, Montana, Idaho, Wyoming

[MN Patriot]

I've made quite a few suggestions over the years. You might even find some of them on this very forum. The question then becomes, are you willing to try something different?

12 years ago I ran for Congress for the Libertarian Party. The LP collapsed soon after,because of their incompetent leadership. They are still around, but their candidate get the usual 1%. I still think the third party route is our best chance of restoring freedom, but for now I am getting involved with the Campaign for Liberty and see if the Republican Party can be reformed.

As we become involved, we are learning what works, what doesn't and who it is we are fighting. Griffin's videos and many other sources uncovers who the Establishment is an how they have created this socialist/corporatist system we live in.

Our biggest challenge is getting all the sundry liberty movements and organizations to unite. If the Republican Party can't be reformed, I firmly believe a third party needs to rise up and put the Republicans out of business, take votes away from them to make them irrelevant at first, and then extinct. The Libertarian, Constitution and other liberty minded parties have their chance to join forces and replace the Republican Party, so that there is a clear choice: freedom or fascism. Any liberty minded Republican would surely be encouraged to abandon the failing Republican Party and join the new Liberty Constitution Party, or whatever it will be called.

One thing that needs to happen is a tax revolt. People need to wake up to how much money the government is robbing from them every payday.

That is one thing I am doing differently. Trying to promote the idea of eliminating payroll deductions, require people to actually write a check to the government. Have you noticed my signature at the bottom? Have you seen anyone suggesting that same idea anywhere else? Different, isn't it? I haven't seen or heard anyone talk about doing this. It wouldn't even need to be enacted, just opening the debate with the public might be enough to open people's eyes and get more people on our side. The socialists shouldn't oppose it, since their sacred government is still getting their precious money, right? Or do they not want people to see how much they pay to the government.

[RBS51]

12 years ago I ran for Congress for the Libertarian Party. The LP collapsed soon after,because of their incompetent leadership. They are still around, but their candidate get the usual 1%. I still think the third party route is our best chance of restoring freedom, but for now I am getting involved with the Campaign for Liberty and see if the Republican Party can be reformed.

As we become involved, we are learning what works, what doesn't and who it is we are fighting. Griffin's videos and many other sources uncovers who the Establishment is an how they have created this socialist/corporatist system we live in.

Our biggest challenge is getting all the sundry liberty movements and organizations to unite. If the Republican Party can't be reformed, I firmly believe a third party needs to rise up and put the Republicans out of business, take votes away from them to make them irrelevant at first, and then extinct. The Libertarian, Constitution and other liberty minded parties have their chance to join forces and replace the Republican Party, so that there is a clear choice: freedom or fascism.

One thing that needs to happen is a tax revolt. People need to wake up to how much money the government is robbing from them every payday.

That is one thing I am doing differently. Trying to promote the idea of eliminating payroll deductions, require people to actually write a check to the government. Have you noticed by signature at the bottom? Have you seen anyone suggesting that same idea anywhere else? Different, isn't it? I haven't seen or heard anyone talk about doing this. It wouldn't even need to be enacted, just opening the debate with the public might be enough to open people's eyes and get more people on our side. The socialists shouldn't oppose it, since their sacred government is still getting their precious money, right? Or do they not want people to see how much they pay to the government.

If we can't change how the votes are counted, the number of parties won't matter.

[Ethek]

If we can't change how the votes are counted, the number of parties won't matter.

I agree on both sides. Power seekers are important. I wrote about this a few weeks ago. The key as Griffin explains late on is to hold to a philosphy of liberty.. or 'The Creed' as he calls it.

http://gadsdenunion.ning.com/profiles/blogs/nominate-principled-candidates


Liberty minded people must making a showing, we have to play be the rules of the system until we are in a position to change it. Ultimately we must regain power but the point to understand, the key, as Griffin discusses is that there must be a philosophy, a creed. Weather a candidate is libertarian or republican it does not matter.

If you really want to shake something up for third parties
http://www.thirty-thousand.org/#Q12 and restore sound money.

[MN Patriot]

If we can't change how the votes are counted, the number of parties won't matter.

Then that is another issue we need to address. The mainstream media will cover it up, but we need to bypass the mainstream media.

This is the problem of the liberty movement, so many people with hopeless attitudes.

"There is nothing we can do."
"They are so strong and smart and powerful and they have us outnumbered 100 to 1."
"Most people are sheep and will do nothing."

If you support the principles of individual liberty, then get involved with the CFL. We need to team up. Hard for individualists to join a team, but that is how we need to seek power.

[YumYum]

I love it! "We got to do this", and "We got do that". If your going to do it, then do it!!

[orafi]

If you want to restore the Constitutional Republic, do as the Neoconservatives, did.

promise republicans more war and military bases, then force feed them peace and prosperity when in power!

[MN Patriot]

I love it! "We got to do this", and "We got do that". If your going to do it, then do it!!

But one person doing it doesn't have as much impact as many people doing it. If you watched the video, Griffin talks about the multiplier effect.

This is the difficult part of the liberty movement, and the fascists probably know it quite well. Individualists don't want to join a movement like the socialist lemmings do.

I AM doing it, trying to persuade people to get involved in the CFL, perhaps get a third party created if reforming the Republican party proves to be impossible. Many people are trying to DO IT. But not enough are doing it. Ultimately we need to join forces to DO it. And not just talk and post things on forums, but actually take concrete steps to changing things.

I think the video might help to change people's attitudes, the first step to doing it.

[YumYum]

But one person doing it doesn't have as much impact as many people doing it. If you watched the video, Griffin talks about the multiplier effect.

This is the difficult part of the liberty movement, and the fascists probably know it quite well. Individualists don't want to join a movement like the socialist lemmings do.

I AM doing it, trying to persuade people to get involved in the CFL, perhaps get a third party created if reforming the Republican party proves to be impossible. Many people are trying to DO IT. But not enough are doing it. Ultimately we need to join forces to DO it. And not just talk and post things on forums, but actually take concrete steps to changing things.

I think the video might help to change people's attitudes, the first step to doing it.

I belong to C4L, and I am a registered Republican, trying to help take back the Republican Party. I don't think we will succeed. I like the idea of a third party, but if it is anything like the Libertarian Party, it won't have a chance.

[MN Patriot]

I belong to C4L, and I am a registered Republican, trying to help take back the Republican Party. I don't think we will succeed. I like the idea of a third party, but if it is anything like the Libertarian Party, it won't have a chance.

What has the LP done wrong, in your opinion?

Here's my partial list:

Hair brained ideas like Project Archimedes in the 90's. Just a mail order Ponzi scheme to increase membership.
No unified campaign platform for Congressional candidates.
Goofball candidates. Get a haircut and buy a suit.
Run candidates. Don't be a debating society.
Use campaigns for growing the party, not just to run a candidate that isn't going to win. Look to the future.
The media is not your friend, they will make you look like a fool any chance they get.
LP leadership has no idea of what to do. Can't even submit paperwork to the Secretary of State office, possibly because they don't want to be confined to the "system".


A new third party needs to be much more effective.

[YumYum]

What has the LP done wrong, in your opinion?

Here's my partial list:

Hair brained ideas like Project Archimedes in the 90's. Just a mail order Ponzi scheme to increase membership.
No unified campaign platform for Congressional candidates.
Goofball candidates. Get a haircut and buy a suit.
Run candidates. Don't be a debating society.
Use campaigns for growing the party, not just to run a candidate that isn't going to win. Look to the future.
The media is not your friend, they will make you look like a fool any chance they get.
LP leadership has no idea of what to do. Can't even submit paperwork to the Secretary of State office, possibly because they don't want to be confined to the "system".


A new third party needs to be much more effective.

I agree with everything you listed. I think the problem is that the Libertarian Party is too divided on issues. "A house divided cannot stand", someone said. We need to have a Party that has a platform based on what Ron Paul's position was during his campaign for President. Everything he argued for made sense and is appealling to most Americans. We start adding more stuff to the platform and it will fall apart. Look how divided we are on this forum. Can you name 5 things that 95% of the forum members agree on?

[LibertyWorker]

People can get involved in with all the best intentions in the world. but by the time the machine is done churning them out you get the same old sausage.

Wake up people! Your playing their game with their rules and magically you think you can come up with a different outcome.

Time and time again on these message boards we’ve seen people devote their time and energy to the Republican Party only to have a party work against them once there in.

And in some cases actually work to get them out of the party altogether.

So I say enough of these platitudes about a peaceful loving revolution. I watched plenty of stock footage from the 60s when the people went up against the machine. I don’t see a lot of peace and love. What I do see are people being beaten with clubs, shot with tear gas, shot with water cannons, and sometimes shot with bullets.

Until people the people are ready to give up their life, liberty and property to change this country all this talk and Strategies are meaningless drivel.

You have to stop the machine before the machine will listen.

[YumYum]

People can get involved in with all the best intentions in the world. but by the time the machine is done churning them out you get the same old sausage.

Wake up people! Your playing their game with their rules and magically you think you can come up with a different outcome.

Time and time again on these message boards we’ve seen people devote their time and energy to the Republican Party only to have a party work against them once there in.

And in some cases actually work to get them out of the party altogether.

So I say enough of these platitudes about a peaceful loving revolution. I watched plenty of stock footage from the 60s when the people went up against the machine. I don’t see a lot of peace and love. What I do see are people being beaten with clubs, shot with tear gas, shot with water cannons, and sometimes shot with bullets.

Until people the people are ready to give up their life, liberty and property to change this country all this talk and Strategies are meaningless drivel.

You have to stop the machine before the machine will listen.

So you are saying we should resort to what? Violence? That isn't necessary. There are other ways to help the government collapse a lot sooner than to start blowing up buildings. Question: Can you name one (1) thing that 98% of the members on this forum agree on?

[ScoutsHonor]

People can get involved in with all the best intentions in the world. but by the time the machine is done churning them out you get the same old sausage.

Wake up people! Your playing their game with their rules and magically you think you can come up with a different outcome.

Time and time again on these message boards we’ve seen people devote their time and energy to the Republican Party only to have a party work against them once there in.

And in some cases actually work to get them out of the party altogether.

So I say enough of these platitudes about a peaceful loving revolution. I watched plenty of stock footage from the 60s when the people went up against the machine. I don’t see a lot of peace and love. What I do see are people being beaten with clubs, shot with tear gas, shot with water cannons, and sometimes shot with bullets.

Until people the people are ready to give up their life, liberty and property to change this country all this talk and Strategies are meaningless drivel.

You have to stop the machine before the machine will listen.

Agreed. The founding fathers had a Tea Party, not a "tea party". Big difference, no?

[LibertyWorker]

So you are saying we should resort to what? Violence? That isn't necessary. There are other ways to help the government collapse a lot sooner than to start blowing up buildings. Question: Can you name one (1) thing that 98% of the members on this forum agree on?

No where in my post do I talk about of the people resorting to violence. Those violent acts I’m describing were done by the government against the people for not complying with the system.

[LibertyWorker]

So you are saying we should resort to what? Violence? That isn't necessary. There are other ways to help the government collapse a lot sooner than to start blowing up buildings. Question: Can you name one (1) thing that 98% of the members on this forum agree on?

so when the system becomes violent against you. you have no right to defend yourself?

[LibertyWorker]

Come on people Revolution 101

You gain the popular support of the people by forcing the government to use violence against the people.

[YumYum]

so when the system becomes violent against you you have no right to defend yourself?

Of course, I will defend myself. But here is the problem we are faced with. We either play along with the system and try to change it, which we can't (I used to believe we could), or we undermine it and sabatoge it, but we will all end up in prison, or, we let it run its course and we educate each other and help each other to prepare for what is coming. I prefer this. It's like snow skiing: let gravity do the work. Let us stop fighting the system and prepare to take it over when it collapses.

[LibertyWorker]

Of course, I will defend myself. But here is the problem we are faced with. We either play along with the system and try to change it, which we can't (I used to believe we could), or we undermine it and sabatoge it, but we will all end up in prison, or, we let it run its course and we educate each other and help each other to prepare for what is coming. I prefer this. It's like snow skiing: let gravity do the work. Let us stop fighting the system and prepare to take it over when it collapses.

The only problem I see with that is that the system will do everything it can to stop the collapse. for some people just having food on the table and a roof over their head would be enough to not have them turn against the government.

who do you think the people going to turn to if there is a collapse? if it's the government that the people turn to. They will immediately start to reconstitute power.

[cheapseats]

...The system is such that it inherently favors the corruption of their aims though.

The Infamous System does not "simply" favor the corruption of aims. The System PROMOTES corruption of aims AND of individuals, and it REQUIRES capital C Compromises. They trade signatures and thumbprints once in office, or they will be completely ineffectual.




He wants us to beat them at their own game.

Trying to beat people at their own game, on their home turf, PLAYING BY THEIR RIGGED RULES, without their limitless wealth . . . hmmm, lemme think.

I think it will successfully use up the lifetimes and resources of those playing the game, whilst providing current Economic Stimulus, Canon Fodder and Grist For The Mill, concurrent with COMPROMISING future generations along with our national heritage.

[MN Patriot]

The Infamous System does not "simply" favor the corruption of aims. The System PROMOTES corruption of aims AND of individuals, and it REQUIRES capital C Compromises. They trade signatures and thumbprints once in office, or they will be completely ineffectual.

The System has been run by people who have different principles than defending individual liberty. We want to change the System, and that can only be done by seeking power to be the ones in control of the System.

Once we are in control, we can repeal the income tax and replace it with nothing.

Abolish and/or privatize government agencies not in compliance with the Constitution.

End the Fed.

Do anything else that will promote freedom and discourage corruption.

Condemning the System accomplishes nothing, which the Establishment tolerates because it does exactly that.

[fj45lvr]

Come on people Revolution 101

You gain the popular support of the people by forcing the government to use violence against the people.

Exactly.

[cheapseats]

The System has been run by people who have different principles than defending individual liberty.

Agreed. Of course.




We want to change the System,

Agreed. Of course.





and that can only be done by seeking power to be the ones in control of the System.

Within the system being bad, it is also OUT.OF.CONTROL. Think, the bus in the movie Speed. Getting behind the wheel may spare certain people's lives/livelihoods and it may spare certain property destruction, but the bus ain't rejoining the people-moving fleet.

[ATTN: Creepy Surveillance Types, advocating violence and anticipating violence are NOT the same. I do not ADVOCATE violence. I ANTICIPATE violence. As well, speaking in Hypotheticals does NOT constitute ADVOCACY.]

Fiddle de dee, the ONLY way to "fix" a broken System is by taking control of it. It must be owned that the assassination of a handful of Government Officials would render a whole new ball game. If the Majority of Elite became fearful for their lives, it would be a whole new ball game.

IF there will be another Terrorist Attack, it stands to Reason AND Religion that it should target Officialdom. If Capitol Hill or the White House rather than an airplane or a commercial building would be blown to Kingdom Come, it would be a whole new ball game.

If a handful of Corrupt Politicians and Executives would be separated from the herd for FOCUSED INVESTIGATION AND RIGOROUS PROSECUTION -- including stripping of pensions, seizing of ill-gotten gains, and stiff sentences in with the REGULAR prison population -- it would be a whole new ball game.




Once we are in control,

In what decade are we imagining that feat will have been executed?





we can repeal the income tax and replace it with nothing.

Abolish and/or privatize government agencies not in compliance with the Constitution.

End the Fed.

Do anything else that will promote freedom and discourage corruption.

Just like that, eh? Why didn't we think of that sooner?




Condemning the System accomplishes nothing, which the Establishment tolerates because it does exactly that.

Totally agree.

[cheapseats]

The wisdom of the ages is that POWER CORRUPTS.

The fanciful notion that "liberty-minded" HUMANS are immune to the flaws and foibles that have bedeviled man's lordship over man for all of recorded history is exactly that, fanciful.

Fanciful Notion, thy other name is Magical Thinking.

[MN Patriot]

The wisdom of the ages is that POWER CORRUPTS.

The fanciful notion that "liberty-minded" HUMANS are immune to the flaws and foibles that have bedeviled man's lordship over man for all of recorded history is exactly that, fanciful.

Fanciful Notion, thy other name is Magical Thinking.

We all recognizes this, Griffin recognizes this and addresses it with his Creed of Freedom: http://www.freedomforceinternational.org/freedom.cfm?fuseaction=creed.

Your observation that people are corruptible gives us no suggestion of what to do about it. Griffin does. I think this is the best solution that has been provided yet. Seek power with the intention of defending freedom, guided by a creed of freedom.

If power corrupts and we libertarians are not to seek power, then you and the rest of the critics and cynics are leaving the door wide open for tyrants to retain power.

[cheapseats]

We all recognizes this, Griffin recognizes this and addresses it with his Creed of Freedom: http://www.freedomforceinternational.org/freedom.cfm?fuseaction=creed.


Are you suggesting that WORDS ON PAPER will nullify a reliable historical trend?





Your observation that people are corruptible gives us no suggestion of what to do about it.

QUIT SENDING THEM MONEY. QUIT GIVING AMPHETAMINES TO CRACK ADDICTS. THEY CANNOT KEEP DOING WHAT THEY DO WITHOUT THE FISCAL COMPLICITY OF THE TAXPAYERS.





Griffin does. I think this is the best solution that has been provided yet. Seek power with the intention of defending freedom, guided by a creed of freedom.

Good Cause for seeking power, yeah, that's a fresh angle.





If power corrupts and we libertarians are not to seek power, then you and the rest of the critics and cynics are leaving the door wide open for tyrants to retain power.

Your conclusion is based on the premise that working within THEIR system, by THEIR rules, is the only way to skin a cat. I reject that premise, therefore your conclusion.

[MN Patriot]

Fiddle de dee, the ONLY way to "fix" a broken System is by taking control of it. It must be owned that the assassination of a handful of Government Officials would render a whole new ball game. If the Majority of Elite became fearful for their lives, it would be a whole new ball game.

IF there will be another Terrorist Attack, it stands to Reason AND Religion that it should target Officialdom. If Capitol Hill or the White House rather than an airplane or a commercial building would be blown to Kingdom Come, it would be a whole new ball game.

Yes, the Establishment would have a reason to instituted martial law, and the population would support it because of the obvious threat of violence. We don't want the citizens to oppose the freedom movement, we want them on OUR side.

Suppose the liberty candidates, Ron and Rand Paul, Schiff, et al, were to advocate ending payroll deductions, it would emphasize how much government costs each person who actually works. If people had to even think about writing one big check to the IRS each year, for the full amount of taxes they pay, it will get more people on our side.



If a handful of Corrupt Politicians and Executives would be separated from the herd for FOCUSED INVESTIGATION AND RIGOROUS PROSECUTION -- including stripping of pensions, seizing of ill-gotten gains, and stiff sentences in with the REGULAR prison population -- it would be a whole new ball game.

That would be nice to see. :D



In what decade are we imagining that feat will have been executed?


This decade. The sooner the better.

[MN Patriot]

Are you suggesting that WORDS ON PAPER will nullify a reliable historical trend?

Words on paper that represent concepts that guide our actions.



QUIT SENDING THEM MONEY. QUIT GIVING AMPHETAMINES TO CRACK ADDICTS. THEY CANNOT KEEP DOING WHAT THEY DO WITHOUT THE FISCAL COMPLICITY OF THE TAXPAYERS.

Agreed. The first step: suggest ending payroll tax withholding. Wake people up.



Good Cause for seeking power, yeah, that's a fresh angle.

Not sure if you are being sarcastic, but it IS a new angle in the liberty movement: deliberately seek power. Don't just condemn power. Power exists. Some people seek power to exploit others. We should seek power to liberate all of us.



Your conclusion is based on the premise that working within THEIR system, by THEIR rules, is the only way to skin a cat. I reject that premise, therefore your conclusion.

Their system is OUR system, too. The Establishment has hijacked it for their gain and our loss. Please explain what other systems there are for us to end income taxes, stop the war machine and corporatism. The drop out system?

[AmericaFyeah92]

We should look to the 1930's-40's America First for inspiration. Why not start a broad coalition whose sole aim is opposing war? It could be a "big tent" organization that welcomed libertarians, conservatives, greens, liberal progressives, disillusioned vets, etc. It could be a major voting bloc, and a powerful force in politics without being corrupted by the "system."

America First is SUCH a good name for it, but I think we'll be opening ourselves up to the anti-semite label if we re-use it, or be accused of being Hitler apologists. What would a better name be?

The moderate majority of the members could attend rallies, launch protests, boycotts, etc. Whereas the hard-core few could take part in some..."direct" action

[Ethek]

We should look to the 1930's-40's America First for inspiration. Why not start a broad coalition whose sole aim is opposing war? It could be a "big tent" organization that welcomed libertarians, conservatives, greens, liberal progressives, disillusioned vets, etc. It could be a major voting bloc, and a powerful force in politics without being corrupted by the "system."

America First is SUCH a good name for it, but I think we'll be opening ourselves up to the anti-semite label if we re-use it, or be accused of being Hitler apologists. What would a better name be?

The moderate majority of the members could attend rallies, launch protests, boycotts, etc. Whereas the hard-core few could take part in some..."direct" action

War is a polarized issue. Its divisive not a uniter. People too insecure to let others be will seek it. Those opposed to it will oppose it, though likely not for the same reasons that you would.

Griffin has a good primise

[stilltrying]

The System has been run by people who have different principles than defending individual liberty. We want to change the System, and that can only be done by seeking power to be the ones in control of the System.

Once we are in control, we can repeal the income tax and replace it with nothing.

Abolish and/or privatize government agencies not in compliance with the Constitution.

End the Fed.

Do anything else that will promote freedom and discourage corruption.

Condemning the System accomplishes nothing, which the Establishment tolerates because it does exactly that.

Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.

"Once we are in control", I thought libertary minded people dont want control hence the Nietszche quote as if it so easy to guard yourself against seeking MORE power once you get it.

Population madness sprouts from politics yet we at RPFs are immune to it, I dont buy it.

[MN Patriot]

Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.

"Once we are in control", I thought libertary minded people dont want control hence the Nietszche quote as if it so easy to guard yourself against seeking MORE power once you get it.

Population madness sprouts from politics yet we at RPFs are immune to it, I dont buy it.

You didn't watch the video, did you?

[heavenlyboy34]

We should look to the 1930's-40's America First for inspiration. Why not start a broad coalition whose sole aim is opposing war? It could be a "big tent" organization that welcomed libertarians, conservatives, greens, liberal progressives, disillusioned vets, etc. It could be a major voting bloc, and a powerful force in politics without being corrupted by the "system."

America First is SUCH a good name for it, but I think we'll be opening ourselves up to the anti-semite label if we re-use it, or be accused of being Hitler apologists. What would a better name be?

The moderate majority of the members could attend rallies, launch protests, boycotts, etc. Whereas the hard-core few could take part in some..."direct" action


How about some variant of "Americans United For Liberty"? :cool:

[stilltrying]

You didn't watch the video, did you?

I have seen it three times. Yes at the end he can hear his grandchildren saying papa, papa. So now what? Suppose you get to be the mayor, do you think its easy to even run a small rural town? You have citizens just the same all asking for this or that, what are you gonna do? You think their is no pressure in this situations and that you won't cave? People nowadays want something from you plain and simple. Are you going to shun them all? or only those that don't coincide with the constitution? Say you don't like seatbelt tickets, which most people don't, are you gonna repeal it in your town? Are you gonna allow liquor to be sold at all stores everyday till as late as they want to to stay open? Would you raise taxes if there was an unexpected shortfall somewhere? What if you roads are crap, are you gonna ask the STATE to send you money to fix them or are you gonna raise taxes? It is a system designed to chew people up and spit them out. How long do you think you will last if you shun everyone? This is a very short short list of things that just popped off the top of my head that I am sure a piddly ole mayor has to deal with, not the good ole boys club.

[andrewh817]

The problem is, by seeking power in a sense you're saying it's okay to have that ridiculous amount of power as long as you don't use it for bad things. Which goes against individualism completely.

[MN Patriot]

The problem is, by seeking power in a sense you're saying it's okay to have that ridiculous amount of power as long as you don't use it for bad things. Which goes against individualism completely.

Why is having power completely against individualism? That makes no sense.

Power is like a gun. It can be used for bad things or good things. Seek and use power for good things. Abolish income taxes. Reduce the size of government. Liberate entrepreneurialism.

The condemnation of power by libertarians is as irrational as the condemnation of guns by gun control advocates.

[MN Patriot]

I have seen it three times. Yes at the end he can hear his grandchildren saying papa, papa. So now what? Suppose you get to be the mayor, do you think its easy to even run a small rural town? You have citizens just the same all asking for this or that, what are you gonna do? You think their is no pressure in this situations and that you won't cave? People nowadays want something from you plain and simple. Are you going to shun them all? or only those that don't coincide with the constitution? Say you don't like seatbelt tickets, which most people don't, are you gonna repeal it in your town? Are you gonna allow liquor to be sold at all stores everyday till as late as they want to to stay open? Would you raise taxes if there was an unexpected shortfall somewhere? What if you roads are crap, are you gonna ask the STATE to send you money to fix them or are you gonna raise taxes? It is a system designed to chew people up and spit them out. How long do you think you will last if you shun everyone? This is a very short short list of things that just popped off the top of my head that I am sure a piddly ole mayor has to deal with, not the good ole boys club.

You list a bunch of very valid concerns. These are what we need to address as we make plans to seek power.

I was on the parks committee of my town for a few years, and these are the same issues I struggled with. Other people on the committee would be euphoric about some state or federal grant they could use. When I raised my reluctance about it, all of them would say "but some other city will get that money", like it was some sort of contest. In a way it is, we paid the taxes to the state and federal government, and they were doling it back out. Ending income taxes would pretty much solve that issue.

Roads are largely paid for with gas taxes, which in my mind is about as fair as you can get. The more gas you use, the more you use the roads. Bigger vehicles wear out the roads faster, and use more gas. They have formulas for distributing money for locally maintained roads. Privatizing the roads may look good in theory to libertarians, but most people think it is a wacky idea. The roads should be at the bottom of the priority list.

[cheapseats]

Once we are in control . . .



CREEE-PY.

I understand what you mean, I understand the problem. But I'm tellin' ya, CREEE-PY.

[cheapseats]

The wisdom of the ages is that POWER CORRUPTS.

The fanciful notion that "liberty-minded" HUMANS are immune to the flaws and foibles that have bedeviled man's lordship over man for all of recorded history is exactly that, fanciful.

Fanciful Notion, thy other name is Magical Thinking.



We all recognizes this, Griffin recognizes this and addresses it with his Creed of Freedom: http://www.freedomforceinternational.org/freedom.cfm?fuseaction=creed.




Are you suggesting that WORDS ON PAPER will nullify a reliable historical trend?




Words on paper that represent concepts that guide our actions.



In other words, like the Constitution? Except that "your" people WILL abide by whatever lofty words are memorialized in fixed written form?

It's a bad bet.

[cheapseats]

We should look to the 1930's-40's America First for inspiration. Why not start a broad coalition whose sole aim is opposing war? It could be a "big tent" organization that welcomed . . .


IS. WELCOMES. ACTIVE TENSE. Not hopeful/wistful tense segueing blandly to past tense.

ANTI-WAR is not a Moovement, rather, A LINE IN THE SAND. Naturally, ANTI-WAR folk extend a MOST inclusionary invitation to ALL ANTI-WAR folk to stand on the line together. Safety in numbers, blaze of glory, either way is fine by me.

You gotta say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH . . . and MEAN it, for a Change.




War is a polarized issue. Its divisive not a uniter.

No doubt about it.

Let us ABSOLUTELY separate the wheat from the chaff. Also the Warhawks, Chickenshits and Moneygrubbing Wannabe Robber Barons from the American Patriots and the Christians.

[PeeCee Qualifier: American Patriots and Christians are neither identical nor mutually exclusive. Think, Venn Diagram.]

[MN Patriot]

CREEE-PY.

I understand what you mean, I understand the problem. But I'm tellin' ya, CREEE-PY.

Would you rather THEY be in control?



Words on paper that represent concepts that guide our actions.


In other words, like the Constitution? Except that "your" people WILL abide by whatever lofty words are memorialized in fixed written form?

It's a bad bet.

It is a much better bet than having socialists and statists in control. So, I guess this means you want Ron Paul to lose, Rand Paul, Schiff, and all the other libertarian minded candidates to lose?

You've heard the saying: lead, follow or get out of the way. I honestly don't see what your proposal is. You have none, except the continual criticisms of wanting to seek power.

Like I said earlier: The condemnation of power by libertarians is as irrational as the condemnation of guns by gun control advocates.

[cheapseats]

Like I said earlier: The condemnation of power by libertarians is as irrational as the condemnation of guns by gun control advocates.

You are wrong.

If you said it earlier, you were wrong then, too.

HAVING CAPABILITY TO RESIST POWER is NOT the same thing as HAVING POWER.

[constituent]

They will immediately start to reconstitute power.

You are an individual actor within the system. If even only you can be reached, that's one person that can make a difference (however small).

Grains of sand. We're the salt of the earth, or we're nothing.

[cheapseats]

Power seekers are important.

No foolin'.

People who SEEK POWER should be viewed with GREATEST SKEPTICISM, not cut widest berth.

[MN Patriot]

HAVING CAPABILITY TO RESIST POWER is NOT the same thing as HAVING POWER.

Please explain this capability to resist power? Is this capability some magical mystery power that comes from a wonderful crystal that grows on the planet Utopia?

If you have capability to resist power, then it means you have power. Oh NO! Contradiction!

[cheapseats]

Come on people Revolution 101

You gain the popular support of the people by forcing the government to use violence against the people.


It's not the ONLY way, however.

You can PAY them, like Government and the Big Boys do. Y'know, GIVE them something that makes their lives better. Become an ASSET/ALLY instead of a BROW BEATER/CAMPAIGNER. NOTHING sez Same Old Same Old to exhausted, depleted Taxpayers like Running For Office.

You can SCARE them, like Government and the Big Boys do.

You can impose Economic Sanctions, like Government and the Big Boys do.

Among things people need to get straight is that Lifetime Political Activism is its OWN Statism with its OWN highflying Elite.

[cheapseats]

Please explain this capability to resist power? Is this capability some magical mystery power that comes from a wonderful crystal that grows on the planet Utopia?

It means putting a bullet between your eyes rather than PERMITTING you to FORCE your-self-your-shit on me.




If you have capability to resist power, then it means you have power. Oh NO! Contradiction!

Being Libertarian means never being wrong, right?

[constituent]

Please explain this capability to resist power? Is this capability some magical mystery power that comes from a wonderful crystal that grows on the planet Utopia?

If you have capability to resist power, then it means you have power. Oh NO! Contradiction!

You're conflating "power" with "control." So is G. Edward Griffin, IIRC.

[cheapseats]

Power exists.

Baloney. Can you walk into a room and spot it, THERE, looking innocuous and unambitious upon a shelf? No, you cannot. There may or may not be PEOPLE in the room who HAVE power -- if there ARE, that will be readily identifiable -- but that speaks to the Person, not freestanding Power.

Power is compelled or it is acceptable. Power is TAKEN away, or it is GIVEN away. Power is SEIZED, or it is relinquished. There are People who CRAVE power and there are People who crave Easy Answers/Free Lunches/Zero Culpability -- the "power" that "exists" between them is as real as Monopoly Money. It's "good," only so long as people accept it.

[stilltrying]

MN Patriot

I understand what Griffin and you are saying, I really do. However, all one has to do is look at the history of humankind to prove what power is capable of and does to the people underneath its foot. Time has proven again and again that I am right. Quantum politics, the law of probability that power corrupts is overwhelmingly in my favor.

Yes, gas taxes are for the roads yet why is the fund always empty, because its put into the general fund of whatever state you belong to and it is spent elsewhere.

[MN Patriot]

It means putting a bullet between your eyes rather than PERMITTING you to FORCE your-self-your-shit on me.

Being Libertarian means never being wrong, right?

I would rather have a rational discussion, than try to interpret your nonsense. This is a waste of everyone's time.

Seek power, people. Join the revolution. Lunatics and subversives don't want us to be in power. Freedom isn't free, we can't wish for it, we have to work for it.

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/

Giffin's website: http://www.freedomforceinternational.org/

[MN Patriot]

MN Patriot

I understand what Griffin and you are saying, I really do. However, all one has to do is look at the history of humankind to prove what power is capable of and does to the people underneath its foot. Time has proven again and again that I am right. Quantum politics, the law of probability that power corrupts is overwhelmingly in my favor.

And what is your solution, wish and hope that power is somehow banished from reality? We need to recognize that power corrupts even as we seek it, and be eternally vigilant against corruption.



Yes, gas taxes are for the roads yet why is the fund always empty, because its put into the general fund of whatever state you belong to and it is spent elsewhere.

Yeah, the collectivists who actively SEEK power, and who are IN power, do whatever they darn please.

[cheapseats]

I would rather have a rational discussion, than try to interpret your nonsense. This is a waste of everyone's time.

Fiddle de dee.

This is a VERY important matter, touching on Highest Ideals and Basest Humanity. Because I am holding up my end of the debate better than you are holding up your end, you are pulling the ol' IT'S MY BALL AND I'M GOING HOME, time-honored since Sandbox Days.

It's okay to do, kinda, but let's call a spade a spade.




Seek power, people. Join the revolution.


Be mindful, people, ESPECIALLY of those who Seek Power. Subject them to EXTRA scrutiny.

Toppling people FROM pedestals and ASSUMING THE THRONE are quite different.





Lunatics and subversives don't want us to be in power.


TOUCH-eee.

LUNATIC is a stretch. SUBVERSIVE is slander.




Freedom isn't free, we can't wish for it, we have to work for it.


That's right. New Messiahs and Power Mongers will no more be your salvation than the LAST Messiahs and Power Mongers. It has ever been thus.

Y'all are special, but yer not THAT special.

If we will DO THE WORK that is in front of us to be done, Natural Born Leaders will manifest.

[andrewh817]

Power is like a gun.
The condemnation of power by libertarians is as irrational as the condemnation of guns by gun control advocates.

The whole point is, if the message is worthwhile, you don't need a gun! I'm already armed to the teeth with reason and evidence as to why people should be free.....

People act in self-interest. I can't for sure say that I would do the right thing when in the situations politicians are in. It'd be awfully easy to take the money and ignore the consequences and for that reason, I'm not going to seek power or those situations.

It's just like you don't know what you'd do if you had the chance to sacrifice your life to save someone else's from disaster. You hope you'd stay behind and make sure everyone made it out okay, but most people would abandon others to save themselves.

[MN Patriot]

The whole point is, if the message is worthwhile, you don't need a gun! I'm already armed to the teeth with reason and evidence as to why people should be free.....

People act in self-interest. I can't for sure say that I would do the right thing when in the situations politicians are in. It'd be awfully easy to take the money and ignore the consequences and for that reason, I'm not going to seek power or those situations.

It's just like you don't know what you'd do if you had the chance to sacrifice your life to save someone else's from disaster. You hope you'd stay behind and make sure everyone made it out okay, but most people would abandon others to save themselves.

Where have I advocated violence? Griffin hasn't advocated violence by trying to seek power. Advocates for personal freedom need to unite and work within the system as it is set up to regain control. We have our message, and it is inherently non-violent. The only time we do advocate violence is to defend ourselves.

You certainly must be able to recognize an analogy. When I said power is like a gun, I meant it as an analogy. Geez. Guns can be abused, power can be abused. People in these libertarian forums are 100% pro-gun, and they can clearly see the irrationality of gun control advocates who think that by demonizing guns, gun violence will go away. Why can't libertarians recognize that power can be abused, but demonizing power only increases the abuse of power? Just like gun control.

That's it! We need to pass power control! :rolleyes:

[cheapseats]

Where have I advocated violence? Griffin hasn't advocated violence by trying to seek power.

NO ONE GIVES UP POWER WITHOUT A FIGHT. Less'n they're turning over the reins to ally or offspring.





Advocates for personal freedom need to unite and work within the system as it is set up to regain control.


Would you keep playing Monopoly by the rules with someone who was cheating?

[CCTelander]

"Work within the sysytem."

"Seek power."

People have been attempting to establish or reclaim liberty by these exact means for longer than any of us have been alive. Liberty has NEVER been won, or once lost fully reclaimed by these means. NOT ONCE IN ALL OF RECORDED HISTORY.

Either wake up and start at least looking seriously for alternatives or resign yourself to serious, crushing disillusionment. And, if the latter, kiss any hope of ever being free goodbye.

[MN Patriot]

"Work within the sysytem."

"Seek power."

People have been attempting to establish or reclaim liberty by these exact means for longer than any of us have been alive. Liberty has NEVER been won, or once lost fully reclaimed by these means. NOT ONCE IN ALL OF RECORDED HISTORY.

Either wake up and start at least looking seriously for alternatives or resign yourself to serious, crushing disillusionment. And, if the latter, kiss any hope of ever being free goodbye.

The Tea Party liberty movement, has barely started. The Libertarian Party has been crying out in the wilderness for almost 40 years and finally their ideas are reaching mainstream recognition. Austrian economics is relatively new to most people.

Give the Revolution time. Work within the system, at least until the Establishment starts getting ruthless and violent, if they have the guts to do anything drastic. I believe the days of cyanide showers and death camps are over. The world is so connected nothing like that will happen again. Instead of putting a bullet in the back of our heads, the Establishment media just mocks us and smears us.

You are skeptical of working within the system, yet offer no alternatives while telling me to do so.

Our ideas of freedom WILL set humanity free. We just need people to spread those ideas, and persuade the portion of like minded people to join in at taking over.

[cheapseats]

The Tea Party liberty movement, has barely started.

It HAS, however, already been bogarted.




The Libertarian Party has been crying out in the wilderness for almost 40 years and finally their ideas are reaching mainstream recognition. Austrian economics is relatively new to most people.


Nearly half-a-century of ineffectuality has SEEK POWER written on it?





Give the Revolution time.


Oh, for fuck's sake.

Spoken like a BUREAUCRAT, not a Power Seeker.





Work within the system,


WOULD YOU CONTINUE TO PLAY MONOPOLY BY THE RULES WITH SOMEONE WHO CHEATED, ON TOP OF HAVING COLORED PAPER, SCISSORS AND A SHARPIE IN HIS LAP?




...at least until the Establishment starts getting ruthless and violent, if they have the guts to do anything drastic.


It is not the Establishment but the PEOPLE who are afraid of drastic measures.




...the Establishment media just mocks us and smears us.


Yep, sir, THEY know how to frame an argument.




Our ideas of freedom WILL set humanity free. We just need people to spread those ideas, and persuade the portion of like minded people to join in at taking over.

Am I the only one to whom that sounds canned, sterile and implausible?

And heads up on this, "like-minded people TAKING OVER" is NOT skillful framing of an argument.

[Working Poor]

I keep thinking there are a lot more people in this world that don't really like what's happening with government in general than there are people who want to continue running things. The people have plenty of power but they give it away because they don't want to rule them selves or take responsibility for their needs. Something is gonna give either the people or the government will win. I hope the people win I think it will be a close call.

I have to go and write some letters to companies that put high fructose corn syrup in their bread. See ya'll later.

[cheapseats]

...The people have plenty of power but they give it away because they don't want to rule them selves or take responsibility for their needs.

Agreed, BUT. They also don't want black-suited and/or jack-booted G-Men showing up at their doors and hauling them off for Enhanced Interrogation and Preventative Detention. They don't want liens upon their homes and garnishments upon their wages. It could be simple Expediency a la LIFE IS SHORT.

Taking on City Hall is best done in numbers. No doubt from whence hails the phrase STORMING THE GATES.




Something is gonna give either the people or the government will win. I hope the people win I think it will be a close call.


Aye.

I have no idea how to "do" YouTube or whether it can't be as STAGED as the next presentation of "reality," but I love the phrase YOU TUBE OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. This is more a case of Vegas Odds. I don't know WHY I was surprised, but I WAS surprised to learn there is betting on elections.

Are there Odds on the People vs. the New World Order?

[andrewh817]

WOULD YOU CONTINUE TO PLAY MONOPOLY BY THE RULES WITH SOMEONE WHO CHEATED, ON TOP OF HAVING COLORED PAPER, SCISSORS AND A SHARPIE IN HIS LAP?


And heads up on this, "like-minded people TAKING OVER" is NOT skillful framing of an argument.

Wow, I'm definitely going to use that example..... great stuff.

As for the "like-minded people take over" idea, THAT'S HOW WE GOT WHERE WE ARE TODAY.