Liberty vs. Libertarian - what's the correlation?

[cbc58]

Is there a correlation? Are the terms connected... meaning did the term Libertarian spring from the philosophy of Liberty?

[1000-points-of-fright]

Yes

[cbc58]

so is it safe to say that everyone posting here that is determined to fight for liberty is a libertarian?

when I think of libertarian... i think of someone that is a liberal, which automatically doesn't correlate to liberty (in my thinking). perhaps it should.

i'm trying to understand this because reading many of these posts going back and forth, some people are bashing others for various reasons including not taking the stance of total and uncompromising liberty.

i get lost in these conversations and am trying to understand the basis on which arguments are built as it relates to liberals and liberty.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

so is it safe to say that everyone posting here that is determined to fight for liberty is a libertarian?

when I think of libertarian... i think of someone that is a liberal, which automatically doesn't correlate to liberty (in my thinking). perhaps it should.

i'm trying to understand this because reading many of these posts going back and forth, some people are bashing others for various reasons including not taking the stance of total and uncompromising liberty.

i get lost in these conversations and am trying to understand the basis on which arguments are built as it relates to liberals and liberty.

Libertarianism is Classical Liberalism (in a broad sense). Classical Liberalism is John Locke, Thomas Jefferson, Patrick Henry, Frederic Bastiat, Jean-Baptiste Say, Anne-Robert-Jacques Turgot, Francisco Suárez (As an early adaptee and outspoken critic of Social-Contract Theory (School of Salamanca), Thomas Paine, Carl Menger, etc.

You could say the most influential on modern libertarianism is John Locke, Frederic Bastiat, and Carl Menger.

Not all of us are deontologists. That is the position of Immanuel Kant. I happen to be in that corner, as well as many other Natural Right and Moral Absolutists (This is where NAP comes from). We make up your "purist" libertarianism as you will. We reject consequentialism, social-contract, all violations of liberty (Property - from which flows all rights), and utilitarianism. This is why I follow Rothbard more than Mises. Rothbard was your quintessential Natural Law/Rights absolutist, whereas Mises was your utilitarian (As is David Friedman, et. al). That isn't to say I reject Mises! Hardly! The man is an intellectual giant and legend and was instrumental in both Austrian Economics and in political philosophy, I just happen to disagree with his arguements on moral grounds :p (He is right (on about 95% of the subjects :p), he just doesn't take the hardcore Natural Law route)

Perhaps the two most famous in my corner of purist libertarianism is Murray Rothbard and Lysander Spooner.

Hope that helps. (libertarianism is a broad movement by the way)

[cbc58]

That doesn't help at all... sorry. How is anyone supposed to understand all that reference and historical positioning?

Please break it down for me in one or two simple sentences. If I don't follow it how on earth is anyone outside of this movement supposed to understand where people here are coming from?

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

That doesn't help at all... sorry. How is anyone supposed to understand all that reference and historical positioning?

Please break it down for me in one or two simple sentences. If I don't follow it how on earth is anyone outside of this movement supposed to understand where people here are coming from?

Libertarianism is about two things. Natural Law and NAP. Everything flows from there. (Also, you can wiki everything I put up in my original post. It will help paint a much clearer picture)

[Rancher]

That doesn't help at all... sorry. How is anyone supposed to understand all that reference and historical positioning?

Please break it down for me in one or two simple sentences. If I don't follow it how on earth is anyone outside of this movement supposed to understand where people here are coming from?

I too am trying to figure this out.

The way I see it: Libertarianism is the philosophy of Liberty. And that we are all Libertarians... it is just that most people don't know it.

[cbc58]

I'm begining to think that alot of what goes on here is intellectual masturbation by some people who are very good at it.

[Rancher]

I'm begining to think that alot of what goes on here is intellectual masturbation by some people who are very good at it.

What does that mean? Can you break it down for me?

[MelissaWV]

I'm begining to think that alot of what goes on here is intellectual masturbation by some people who are very good at it.

Actually, a LOT of what goes on here is answering questions from people, commenting on current events, and organizing activism/campaigning.

SOME of what goes on here is common gossip or feuding.

SOME of what goes on here is fun and interaction with people we've grown to be friends with over the past couple of years.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

I'm begining to think that alot of what goes on here is intellectual masturbation by some people who are very good at it.

Excuse me if I answered your question too specifically. How about instead of complaining I overloaded you with information you are yet familiar with, you read up and inform yourself? Show some appreciation.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

What does that mean? Can you break it down for me?

No, not all of us are libertarians. Some are Constitutionalists and I have no idea what their principles are outside of the Federal Realm (And then there are the Constitutionalist-Libertarians like Gunny who believe in NAP and Natural Law, just haven't yet reconciled those two positions :p). Some are Paleocons who tend towards socially conservative, yet economically liberal, and are anti-war, anti-imperialism.

Frankly, Paleo's and Constitutionalists have quite a few logical inconsistencies.

[Rancher]

No, not all of us are libertarians. Some are Constitutionalists and I have no idea what their principles are outside of the Federal Realm (And then there are the Constitutionalist-Libertarians like Gunny who believe in NAP and Natural Law, just haven't yet reconciled those two positions :p). Some are Paleocons who tend towards socially conservative, yet economically liberal, and are anti-war, anti-imperialism.

Frankly, Paleo's and Constitutionalists have quite a few logical inconsistencies.

Okay. Thank you. I am a work in progress, and I still have a lot to learn.

When I stated that we are all libertarians, I meant that as a member of the animal kingdom we are all ultimately responsible for ourselves... our food, our possessions, our actions, our lives... and that philosophy of libertarianism is the definition of liberty.

[Pericles]

No, not all of us are libertarians. Some are Constitutionalists and I have no idea what their principles are outside of the Federal Realm (And then there are the Constitutionalist-Libertarians like Gunny who believe in NAP and Natural Law, just haven't yet reconciled those two positions :p). Some are Paleocons who tend towards socially conservative, yet economically liberal, and are anti-war, anti-imperialism.

Frankly, Paleo's and Constitutionalists have quite a few logical inconsistencies.

Which is OK as Rothbard never reconciled all of his positions either.