Libertarians Need to Rethink Support for Drug Legalization

[Anti Federalist]

Libertarians Need to Rethink Support for Drug Legalization

Pajamas media ("http:// pajamasmedia.com/blog/libertarians-need-to-rethink-support-for-drug-legalization/"[url)

December 22, 2009 - by Mary Grabar

A truly sad story about a 23-year-old Panama City man dying while being subdued by Bay County sheriff’s deputies has reawakened the debate about the legalization of marijuana. On December 11, 2009, Andrew Grande choked on a plastic bag full of marijuana as police attempted to arrest him on a violence charge. A video shows police valiantly trying to save his life once it became apparent that he was having difficulty breathing.

Two talk show hosts in Panama City have been discussing the case in the early morning hours — and revealing a divide on the right. Burnie Thompson of WYOO, the libertarian, has called Grande “a casualty of the war on drugs” and contended that because marijuana is illegal, Grande felt “compelled” to swallow a bag of it to avoid punishment.

Nonsense, says Doc Washburn on station WFLF. He invited former Congressman Ernest Istook from the Heritage Foundation and Tina Trent, who blogs on crime, to speak about the dangers of marijuana to the user and to society. Trent indicated that Grande had faced probably only a misdemeanor charge; she pointed to studies showing that the illegal drug trade flourishes despite the legality of marijuana in certain states and other countries. And legalizing marijuana will remove the freedom employers now have to test for the judgment-impairing drug.

The position on the legalization of marijuana provides the point of departure from the traditional libertarianism of Barry Goldwater. In abandoning the duty to enforce social order, today’s libertarians have made a devil’s pact with the pro-drug forces of George Soros and company.

My libertarian friends like to say, “I’m a libertarian, not a libertine.” But though many of the advocates of libertarianism lead socially conservative lives, their agendas promote libertinism — especially when it comes to legalizing drugs. They forget that the moral order they have inherited is put at even further risk as laws change to allow more destructive behavior.

Case in point is the sad story of Andrew Grande, whose secret life as an amateur gay porn star is not being told in the media.

To the libertarian, such a profession would also not present a problem, as prostitution does not. But the two — drug use and the self-debasement of prostitution and pornography — go hand in hand. Ask any strip club dancer how easy it is to get up on stage stone cold sober. Ask anyone who has been under the influence about the stupid things he did. Indeed, Grande probably started young, when he was impressionable. And recent reporting has shown that our “safe schools czar,” Kevin Jennings, was head of an organization that used the schools to promote homosexual sex between boys and men. Certainly the ability to engage in such destructive behavior is enhanced by the use of drugs.

And this is where the libertarian brings up the other “drug”: alcohol.

Libertarians are fond of pointing to the wreckage caused by the abuse of alcohol: deterioration of health, traffic deaths, and domestic violence. This is true, but it is an analogy that emerges from an abstraction. Libertarians argue that the only difference between the two is traditional: we have stamped alcohol consumption with a seal of social approval.

But I would argue that tradition should be a reason for its continued legal status and for denying legal status to marijuana.

The sanction for alcohol use goes back to the Bible. In the New Testament, references to its use in ceremonies like the Last Supper and the wedding at Cana appear. But Jesus also warns about excessive use. In the Old Testament, alcohol is shown to cloud the judgment of Lot. The Bible, in this way, tells us when and how we can use alcohol.

This means very little, though, in the arid moral climate of today’s libertarianism.

But I would argue that it should, not only from my position as a Christian, but from my position as a citizen of a country whose foundational values spring from the Judeo-Christian heritage. The sanction for alcohol use has lasted for millennia. It has become part of our rituals at meals, celebrations, and religious services. That is a large part of why Prohibition failed.

Marijuana, in contrast, has always been counter-cultural in the West. Every toke symbolizes a thumb in the eye of Western values. So it follows that in order to maintain our culture, we need to criminalize this drug.

The prohibition against marijuana is one brick in the foundation of our society. On a practical level the use of marijuana also works to knock out other bricks, like the work ethic, emotional engagement, sexual inhibition, and the ability to reason. For example, when one of my college students leads off in defense of the legalization of marijuana, he invariably does so in a disjointed manner, unable to muster the resources of reason and conviction to his argument. (He also does this in his essays.) One caller, “Dave,” to the Doc Washburn program displayed the same apathetic, but friendly, attitude.

While one cannot come to class drunk without drawing attention, he can attend under the influence of marijuana, sitting in the back of the room with a glazed, though not unpleasant, expression.

But that’s exactly what the left wants: a nation of young zombies — indifferent, unengaged, and uncaring. They provide amenable subjects to indoctrination. Alcohol may fuel fights, but marijuana, as its advocates like to point out, makes the user mellow. The toker wants to make love, not war.

The libertarian maintains that values are the function of the private sphere: the family and church. But as Goldwater argued in the riot-plagued year of 1964, when safety and order are not maintained by the government, our freedoms are affected. In so many ways, the legalization of drugs will lead to the further breakdown of order.

To give sanction to a drug that robs the individual of reason and conviction is to give up on our way of life. It is another surrender to the counter-culture. It sends a dangerous message to young people. A recent study shows that the creeping sanction through legalization of “medical” marijuana in certain states is giving young teenagers a sense of safety about marijuana use.

Marijuana killed Andrew Grande, not only in the literal sense, but in the sense that it abetted his descent into a very sad, counter-cultural lifestyle. Its legalization is supported by the same forces that promote Kevin Jennings, one-world government, Gaia worship, and legalized prostitution. All these elements work against the traditional libertarian values of initiative, freedom, and honor. Libertarians need to rethink their position on drug legalization.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Fuck off Pajamas. No one has the right to tell someone what they can or cannot put in their own body. Do you believe in self-ownership or not, you fucking tyrants.


Ok that's my little rant.

[dannno]

Wow, what a crock.. I can pick apart that article line by line, but.. I think most people who are reasonably intelligent could do the same.

[t0rnado]

But I would argue that tradition should be a reason for its continued legal status and for denying legal status to marijuana.

Slavery has a long tradition in the US--even longer than the legal status of weed, so it should be legal as well according to the retard who wrote the article.

[Derek Johnson]

There's no "giving sanction" to anything. As Rothbard says, "the libertarian is not for or against narcotics anymore than the libertarian is for or against cosmetics".

This confusion is derived from an incomplete understanding of PROPERTY RIGHTS.

Narcotics prohibition (and all other victimless crime legislation/laws) and the requisite enforcing aggresses against property rights, not defends them.

The sole function of STATE is to defend property rights.

[dannno]

Most of the comments are alright, this one is pretty bad, though:


Re: “The author fails to consider the great cost of modern prohibition: limited government.”

You can have limited government without legalizing drugs. The “war” on drugs will never end…unless we decide that hard drugs for children is alright. As long as some drugs are not fine for some people, the war will continue. There has not been a single Western country that has legalized drugs. Marijuana was decriminalized in Portugal but that doesn’t mean that people are allowed to deal it — legalization. It just means that people are sent to rehab instead of jail for small amount of possession.


Bold point #1... ridiculous..


Bold point #2.... we have thousands of legal drugs in this country, wth is this guy smoking??

[phill4paul]

"Drug" usage will only be condoned by the government when taxes garnered from it will surpass tax revenue to fight it.
We have not reached that place yet.

[Oyate]

Yeah, alcohol is OK because it's part of traditional Judeo-Christian values.....sure.

Typical "economic libertarian". His rights derive from his adherence to the status quo and his wallet. He feels perfectly free and as such is utterly uncognizant and uncaring of the usurpation of others. Typical "law and order republican". Yeah, you need your bad guys to keep those of us who would park scrap cars in our yards in check too.

Perhaps "libertarians" need to rethink their support for freedom as it's just so damn UNTIDY.

[JoshLowry]

That is one of the worst articles I've read online.

Prohibition killed him, not marijuana. You don't see people swallowing liquor flasks, cigarettes, or prescription meds when they get pulled over.

[Danke]

Wow, what a crock.. I can pick apart that article line by line, but.. I think most people who are reasonably intelligent could do the same.

Yes, quite easily. But an exercise in futility.

That article was bizarre. I don't use illegal drugs, but wow, that writer is insane.

[Uriel999]

oh great another victim of the war on people in my town.

[Flash]

http://magazine.uchicago.edu/0406/features/images/index-gun.jpg

The government is protecting me from myself.

[FunkBuddha]

That was the worst argument in favor of the drug war I have ever read.

[Freedom 4 all]

Most of my pothead friends are way more articulate and convincing than this guy, even while extremely high. Also, nowhere in the Bible does it mention marijuana at all, so if one is to say that it is a perfect moral code without any flaws and use it to justify behaviour and beliefs like this guy does, one cannot support or oppose weed.

[Chaohinon]

A video shows police valiantly trying to save his life once it became apparent that he was having difficulty breathing.Are you fucking shitting me

[dannno]

Most of my pothead friends are way more articulate and convincing than this guy, even while extremely high.

True!




Also, nowhere in the Bible does it mention marijuana at all

False!




The ancient recipe for this anointing oil, recorded in the Old Testament book of Exodus (30: 22-23) included over nine pounds of flowering cannabis tops, Hebrew "kaneh-bosm" B, extracted into a hind (about 6.5 litres) of olive oil, along with a variety of other herbs and spices. The ancient chosen ones were literally drenched in this potent cannabis holy oil.

From the time of Moses until that of the later prophet Samuel, the holy anointing oil was used by the shamanic Levite priesthood to receive the "revelations of the Lord". At the dawn of the age of Kings, Samuel extended the use of the anointing oil to the Hebraic monarchs by anointing Saul (and later David) as "Messiah-king". These kings lead their people with the benefit of insights achieved through using the holy anointing oil to become "possessed with the spirit of the Lord."

http://www.cannabisculture.com/backissues/cc11/christ.html

[TheConstitutionLives]

the reason he's writing this junk is b/c he's a fascist Christian who internally made the connection with drugs and homosexuality. He's should be writing for The 700 Club.

[dannno]

^Her name's Mary

[Chaohinon]

God. I made the mistake of reading the comments, because I'm a fucking masochist.


You can have limited government without legalizing drugs. The “war” on drugs will never end…unless we decide that hard drugs for children is alright.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b146/Chaohinon/fffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu1.jpg


AH yes… the half and quarter thought out arguments of the drug surrenderists pop up like fleas at a seedy kennel.

Riddle me this Batmen….

For whom do you propose to legalize which drugs?

Once you answer that.

Does that remove the illegal drug trade, the black market, and all of the social criminal pathologies that accompany the drug culture?

Think hard. Drink some coffee… (mild stimulant there…) breathe. When you get past the number 21, you might have a clue as to what the answers to those questions are. You might also get an glimmer of realization as to why Mary Grabar is spot on.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b146/Chaohinon/fffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu3.jpg


The pot afficiandos are out in force.I guess I could live with a few more societal parasites who want a crutch to disguise their indolence by calling it freedom. Drugs like cocaine are something else. Do we really want to see 20 year olds dying of heart attacks after a line of coke? How about prescription drug abuse, a la Michael Jackson? Tiger Woods and his Ambien plus Vicodin?
As a practicing physician I am most offended by the medicalization of marijuana. I’m sure that people dying of cancer benefit by getting stoned. That, after all, is what palliation is all about. Trouble is, all kinds of faux diseases like “chronic fatigue syndrome” are given the green light to use pot as a treatment.
I have a suggestion for a trade-off. Anybody who wants to live as a stoner is welcome to do so: but he can’t receive public assistance in any form as long as he uses. Getting welfare is contingent on passing a monthly drug screen. Otherwise, take your chances earning money in competition with the underworld, which will only grow more powerful if drugs are legalized. The creative destruction of drug capitalists is evident right now in Mexico.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b146/Chaohinon/fffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu4.jpg


“…a nation of young zombies — indifferent, unengaged, and uncaring.”

Instictively we all know this to be true. Today’s youth and even Gen Xers would abuse dope if it became legal. How many more “Jackass” youth do you want running around?

Our youth suffer enough from an upside down culture. Do you really want to make it worse by allowing them to get stoned? Imagine the accelerated drop in our schools and individual achievement. Imagine the further breakdown in clasroom behavior. College students already think college is four years of partying what would happen if dope were legal?

Can any of you cite an independent study that proves dope is not a gateway drug? Do you really believe that safety and productivity at work would not be effected by dope? Do you want a school bus driver high while driving students to school, how about a train driver??? Surgeon? Pilot? Do you really believe that a stoned driver is a consciencious and safe driver especially since the prohibitions of driving stoned would then be removed?

And if you say in rebuttal that limits would be placed on when and where you could dope up then how do you enforce those regulations, and if you are going to regulate that then what is the difference in keeping it illegal in the first place.

And do you libertarians really believe the drug trade and crime would lessen if dope was legalized? Would not the doper still have to find money? Would there not still be a black market on manufacturing and distribution?

Our drug war and criticism of it is a red herring. If we really wanted to stop the importation of it, we could shut down the southern border. It is politics especially from the left and a MSM that seeks a drugged society that keeps the ineffective “war on drugs” from being effective.

Do you really want George Soros to be correct?

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b146/Chaohinon/fffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu0.jpg

[RideTheDirt]

morons need stfu

[Anti Federalist]

"Drug" usage will only be condoned by the government when taxes garnered from it will surpass tax revenue to fight it.
We have not reached that place yet.

I wish I could agree..."they" don't care about tax revenues, "they" care about power.

And prohibition gives them power.

[Chaohinon]

This kind of crap is revealing of what fuels social conservatism: sadism. These people hate youth and liberty. They grew up in households where choices and options did not exist, you simply did as you were told, and rather than own up to the abuse they suffered they instead project those false values onto the world.

[Dr.3D]

[B]Snip~
Marijuana killed Andrew Grande, not only in the literal sense, but in the sense that it abetted his descent into a very sad, counter-cultural lifestyle. ~Snip

Exactly correct. It was the prohibition of Marijuana that killed Andrew Grande. Had it been legal, he would not have found the need to stuff a plastic bag down his throat.

As for the "descent into a very sad, counter-cultural lifestyle", if any study were done on how many packs of rolling papers were sold versus the amount of rolling tobacco, the conclusion would probably be that more people are smoking something other than tobacco in those rolling papers. The only other reason for the disproportionate number of packs of rolling papers to the amount of rolling tobacco sold would be that people are using the papers for something other than smoking.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

God. I made the mistake of reading the comments, because I'm a fucking masochist.



http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b146/Chaohinon/fffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu1.jpg



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http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b146/Chaohinon/fffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu0.jpg

I have to admit this made me laugh a lot. FFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU.

[jmdrake]

So let me get this straight. Someone chokes on a bag of marijuana to avoid the penalty of drug laws and that's an argument for keeping the drug laws? Was the person who wrote this stoned? :rolleyes: As far as the Biblical references for alcohol, there are about as many against it as there are for it. Marijuana isn't mentioned one way or another. But then neither are airplanes. So? There are halfway decent arguments for drug laws, but this certainly wasn't one of them.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

So let me get this straight. Someone chokes on a bag of marijuana to avoid the penalty of drug laws and that's an argument for keeping the drug laws? Was the person who wrote this stoned? :rolleyes: As far as the Biblical references for alcohol, there are about as many against it as there are for it. Marijuana isn't mentioned one way or another. But then neither are airplanes. So? There are halfway decent arguments for drug laws, but this certainly wasn't one of them.

There is no "decent" moral arguement for drug laws. Only bullshit utilitarianism "ends justify the means" bullarky.

[Kotin]

this is by far the worst attempt to persuade support for the drug war..


what a mindfuck.


its time that we start calling them out for what they are and what they always label us.. CRAZY!!

[jmdrake]

There is no "decent" moral arguement for drug laws. Only bullshit utilitarianism "ends justify the means" bullarky.

I said halfway. I don't agree with the drug war. But this defense of it was just plain farcical almost to the point where I wonder if it was written in jest.

[jmdrake]

this is by far the worst attempt to persuade support for the drug war..


what a mindfuck.


its time that we start calling them out for what they are and what they always label us.. CRAZY!!

My sentiments exactly.

[Anti Federalist]

This article was so bad, it entered new realms of bad, that was why I felt compelled to post it.

[Derek Johnson]

this is by far the worst attempt to persuade support for the drug war..


what a mindfuck.


its time that we start calling them out for what they are and what they always label us.. CRAZY!!

There's no issue here except property rights, as always. You anything the violates property rights: drug laws, prostitution laws etc etc is aggressing property rights by coercive theft (taxation) and coercive force (detainment).

Stop talking the posing bullshit, that looks good, that looks bad, or that looks goodbad and focus on the only thing revelant: property rights.

Posing does not matter at all

Property rights do

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

A truly sad story about a 23-year-old Panama City man dying while being subdued by Bay County sheriff’s deputies has reawakened the debate about the legalization of marijuana. On December 11, 2009, Andrew Grande choked on a plastic bag full of marijuana as police attempted to arrest him on a violence charge. A video shows police valiantly trying to save his life once it became apparent that he was having difficulty breathing.

*Urk*. I couldn't read anymore. What the hell is there to debate? The poor bastard croaked BECAUSE of our stupid Prohibition! The vomitous scum that support The War on Drugs, as others have stated, care only about power that they wield over others. If we don't own ourselves then there is no point in even pretending to be Free.

[Freedom 4 all]

God. I made the mistake of reading the comments, because I'm a fucking masochist.



http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b146/Chaohinon/fffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu1.jpg



http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b146/Chaohinon/fffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu3.jpg



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http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b146/Chaohinon/fffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu0.jpg

This would be a far more convincing argument if it were titled "Libertarians Need to Rethink Opposition to Eugenics." The thought of people this unbelievably stupid breeding scares me far more than the thought of people getting high.

[Chaohinon]

This article was so bad, it entered new realms of bad, that was why I felt compelled to post it.I would rather crawl 20 miles through broken glass while Michelle Malkin shouts at me about how wearing arab-style scarves is tantamount to supporting terrorism than attempt to finish this article

[BuddyRey]

Wow. Who wrote this fucking abomination, and why do they hate freedom?

[SimpleName]

Using religious text to make a point about why the state should keep drugs illegal. Hmm...that would make adultery, homosexuality, pornography, and many other things illegal. That isn't libertarianism. That is more in the direction of theological statism and at some point, totalitarianism. What about other things not directly mentioned in the bible? Are guns and blenders and polyester also things that should be outlawed? Are we to assume anything yet discovered or created in biblical times should be illegal because God didn't specifically tell us if they are to be used? Weak...

And why assume we are all Christians? What about the rest of us? We are supposed to adhere to the Christian bible to tell us what laws to put in place? Why not just knock off the entire 1st amendment and allow Sharia law to take over Muslim communities? This guy is an imbecile.

[Chaohinon]

Using religious text to make a point about why the state should keep drugs illegal. Hmm...that would make adultery, homosexuality, pornography, and many other things illegal. That isn't libertarianism. That is more in the direction of theological statism and at some point, totalitarianism. What about other things not directly mentioned in the bible? Are guns and blenders and polyester also things that should be outlawed? Are we to assume anything yet discovered or created in biblical times should be illegal because God didn't specifically tell us if they are to be used? Weak...
don't forget the bible never mentions the germ theory of disease !_!

[EndDaFed]

But I would argue that it should, not only from my position as a Christian, but from my position as a citizen of a country whose foundational values spring from the Judeo-Christian heritage.



There's your problem.

[TheEvilDetector]

People (adults) should be able to put whatever the F they want into their bodies.

[Imperial]

legalizing marijuana will remove the freedom employers now have to test for the judgment-impairing drug.

How? I think they are free to put a restriction on who they hire even if the drug is legal...


when safety and order are not maintained by the government, our freedoms are affected. In so many ways, the legalization of drugs will lead to the further breakdown of order.

What is the point of having freedom if you cannot exercise it?

[libertarian4321]

I'll rethink my stance on drug legalization when the anti-drug Nazi's come up with a rational argument rather than posting the same old authoritarian bull shit.

Obviously, this article won't cause me to change my support for ending the insane war on drugs.

[justinc.1089]

Wow.


I am speechless; at a loss for words.

A guy ate his pot or whatever because he was afraid to get caught with it. That CLEARLY AND CONCLUSIVELY PROVES DRUG PROHIBITION WORKS!!!:eek:

I am now in favor of outlawing drugs. Even questionable, half-way stuff like caffeine, butter, sugar, salt, really really spicy stuff like what Adam Richman eats on Man vs Food, ginsing, taurine, guarana, rose hips, thats got to be a drug for sure with that name, pictures of puppies, tv, video games, porn, beer, wine, not vodka though thats not a drug, margaritas and jimmy buffet for promoting a drug infested town of margaritas and also for cheeseburger promotion too, cheeseburgers, steak, all pork especially since the Bible says not to eat it, and while we're on that all the other foods the Bible says not to eat like catfish, shrimp, oysters, not grasshoppers though they're yummy, ping pong balls (you can cut one in half and put the halves over your eyes and it looks wierd, and supposedly makes you trip but it doesnt actually but still why take a chance?), salvia, dmt which is a sleep hormone or something so we will need to extract that from our own brains, shouldn't be too hard though, crack cocaine, meth, hershey's kisses, butterfingers they rot your teeth from sticking to them, steaks, macncheese its just a bunch of starch, flowers, especially ones heroin come from, they're double outlawed, the INTERNET, prostitution even though its already illegal we can outlaw it again for good measure, cat urine which also means cats in general south park proved cat urine is a highly addictive substance that causes craaaaaazy hallucinations, virtual reality must be pre-emptively outlawed because we all know it will be addictive, helium you can use hydrogen for balloons, paint fumes, alcohol, except vodka, myspace, facebook, twitter, yahoo, even though the internet will also be illegal, smurfs (which includes Avatar, blue people are smurfs period), nutmeg cant have that 3-day simultaneous tripping and vomiting, mcdonalds food just the food though you can still go inside its just the food thats addictive, alcohol, electricty, sex, electronic ab workout belts, LSD, that yellow submarine too, turkey because it makes you sleepy after you eat it, blood in case vampires are real it will help them since they're addicted to it, mushrooms every single kind again why take a chance missing one kind that can be abused, cow tipping, oxygen past a certain amount those oxygen bars give people way more oxygen than normal which is abusing a substance, alcoholl, red bull, monster, starbucks but like mcdonalds just the products, amp, coffee, coca-cola its short for COCAINE COLA so you know they MUST be putting a little something special in that, teletubies kids have to be tripping mad trips watching that, aclohal, vicks vapor rub, cough medicine too but all kinds, pain reliever too but pill poppin' rush can have some oxy still, gum, protein shakes, figs, cell phones, driving while talking, over sleeping, P90X, viagra, call of duty modern warfare 2, children clearly that one woman with like 17 or 18 of them is addicted to popping them out, wierd but cute looking half owl half eagle birds, meditation although that could prove hard to convict someone of since there won't be many ways to prove they were meditating, UFC must be outlawed because it is addictive to watch people fight like gladiators, south park because it says it should not be viewed by anyone so why are people viewing it, the color yellow should not be taken into the eye its just not as good as the other colors, glue sticks kids lick them they call it "GOOD STUFF" (I was actually once offered some "GOOD STUFF" by an older kid when I was in the 1st grade by an abuser of "GOOD STUFF"), knives people abuse them by cutting themselves with them so they're hooked on trying to relieve their unbearable pain by death by bleeding to death from a cut inflicted by a knife besides everyone can just use sporks like at KFC especially since KFC's food is now also outlawed and it will likely close down leaving behind millions of free sporks, which brings us to the next addictive substance that must be banned, sporks, seriously why do we all feel so compelled to shove a "SPORK" in our mouth, clearly they are an addictive substance, chewing tobacco stuff that baseball players and rednecks love, captain crunch all berries if the berries aren't bad then why dont they have all berries all the time?!, alcccohoool, ginaberries, TRMD38, TRMD39, celery, your favorite designer drug we all have our favorites, go juice, sunny delight, hawain punch, and those crazy cakes people make on the food channel that look like buildings and cars and people and dragons and yellow submarines and mello mushrooms (also to be outlawed) and magical gnomes


Sure one or two of those things are not absolutely conclusively proven to be from hell itself, but we all know there is no reason to take a chance on leaving something available to everyone that IS from hell itself.

[BillyDkid]

What a fucking total load of crap. You either believe in liberty, self ownership and personal responsibility or you don't. There isn't a middle ground.

[Anti Federalist]

//

[Working Poor]

Don't forget that the finest cannabis oil was used to anoint Jesus head. :0

[Bruno]

Wow.


I am speechless; at a loss for words.

A guy ate his pot or whatever because he was afraid to get caught with it. That CLEARLY AND CONCLUSIVELY PROVES DRUG PROHIBITION WORKS!!!:eek:

I am now in favor of outlawing drugs. Even questionable, half-way stuff like caffeine, butter, sugar, salt, really really spicy stuff like what Adam Richman eats on Man vs Food, ginsing, taurine, guarana, rose hips, thats got to be a drug for sure with that name, pictures of puppies, tv, video games, porn, beer, wine, not vodka though thats not a drug, margaritas and jimmy buffet for promoting a drug infested town of margaritas and also for cheeseburger promotion too, cheeseburgers, steak, all pork especially since the Bible says not to eat it, and while we're on that all the other foods the Bible says not to eat like catfish, shrimp, oysters, not grasshoppers though they're yummy, ping pong balls (you can cut one in half and put the halves over your eyes and it looks wierd, and supposedly makes you trip but it doesnt actually but still why take a chance?), salvia, dmt which is a sleep hormone or something so we will need to extract that from our own brains, shouldn't be too hard though, crack cocaine, meth, hershey's kisses, butterfingers they rot your teeth from sticking to them, steaks, macncheese its just a bunch of starch, flowers, especially ones heroin come from, they're double outlawed, the INTERNET, prostitution even though its already illegal we can outlaw it again for good measure, cat urine which also means cats in general south park proved cat urine is a highly addictive substance that causes craaaaaazy hallucinations, virtual reality must be pre-emptively outlawed because we all know it will be addictive, helium you can use hydrogen for balloons, paint fumes, alcohol, except vodka, myspace, facebook, twitter, yahoo, even though the internet will also be illegal, smurfs (which includes Avatar, blue people are smurfs period), nutmeg cant have that 3-day simultaneous tripping and vomiting, mcdonalds food just the food though you can still go inside its just the food thats addictive, alcohol, electricty, sex, electronic ab workout belts, LSD, that yellow submarine too, turkey because it makes you sleepy after you eat it, blood in case vampires are real it will help them since they're addicted to it, mushrooms every single kind again why take a chance missing one kind that can be abused, cow tipping, oxygen past a certain amount those oxygen bars give people way more oxygen than normal which is abusing a substance, alcoholl, red bull, monster, starbucks but like mcdonalds just the products, amp, coffee, coca-cola its short for COCAINE COLA so you know they MUST be putting a little something special in that, teletubies kids have to be tripping mad trips watching that, aclohal, vicks vapor rub, cough medicine too but all kinds, pain reliever too but pill poppin' rush can have some oxy still, gum, protein shakes, figs, cell phones, driving while talking, over sleeping, P90X, viagra, call of duty modern warfare 2, children clearly that one woman with like 17 or 18 of them is addicted to popping them out, wierd but cute looking half owl half eagle birds, meditation although that could prove hard to convict someone of since there won't be many ways to prove they were meditating, UFC must be outlawed because it is addictive to watch people fight like gladiators, south park because it says it should not be viewed by anyone so why are people viewing it, the color yellow should not be taken into the eye its just not as good as the other colors, glue sticks kids lick them they call it "GOOD STUFF" (I was actually once offered some "GOOD STUFF" by an older kid when I was in the 1st grade by an abuser of "GOOD STUFF"), knives people abuse them by cutting themselves with them so they're hooked on trying to relieve their unbearable pain by death by bleeding to death from a cut inflicted by a knife besides everyone can just use sporks like at KFC especially since KFC's food is now also outlawed and it will likely close down leaving behind millions of free sporks, which brings us to the next addictive substance that must be banned, sporks, seriously why do we all feel so compelled to shove a "SPORK" in our mouth, clearly they are an addictive substance, chewing tobacco stuff that baseball players and rednecks love, captain crunch all berries if the berries aren't bad then why dont they have all berries all the time?!, alcccohoool, ginaberries, TRMD38, TRMD39, celery, your favorite designer drug we all have our favorites, go juice, sunny delight, hawain punch, and those crazy cakes people make on the food channel that look like buildings and cars and people and dragons and yellow submarines and mello mushrooms (also to be outlawed) and magical gnomes


Sure one or two of those things are not absolutely conclusively proven to be from hell itself, but we all know there is no reason to take a chance on leaving something available to everyone that IS from hell itself.


Clearly you were not at a loss for words, and I am grateful for the lolz! :D

[LDA]

Yeah, alcohol is OK because it's part of traditional Judeo-Christian values.....sure.

I'm not a Christian, but let's see what the bible actually has to say on the subject in Genesis 1:29:

"And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat."


In any case, all drugs should be legal. Sure, drugs can cause people to do bad things. And, when they do bad things to other people, they can be charged with those specific crimes. But really, if we think we're reducing suffering or crime by prohibiting drugs, let's just look at all the suffering and crime that results from the illegal drug trade. We could eliminate that all overnight by legalizing drugs.

Besides, if you made all drugs legal, even the bad ones, there would be some initial fallout, but it wouldn't be that bad. How long would it take for all the idiots to kill themselves with meth? 6 months?

[Bruno]

I'm not a Christian, but let's see what the bible actually has to say on the subject in Genesis 1:29:

"And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat."


In any case, all drugs should be legal. Sure, drugs can cause people to do bad things. And, when they do bad things to other people, they can be charged with those specific crimes. But really, if we think we're reducing suffering or crime by prohibiting drugs, let's just look at all the suffering and crime that results from the illegal drug trade. We could eliminate that all overnight by legalizing drugs.

Besides, if you made all drugs legal, even the bad ones, there would be some initial fallout, but it wouldn't be that bad. How long would it take for all the idiots to kill themselves with meth? 6 months?

I agree with everything you said except the assumption that more people would die if meth or other drugs were to be legalized. When drugs are more pure and their potency known, users are more able to control their dose than when illegal and potency is unknown from dealer to dealer, batch to batch (this is how many heroin addicts overdose). Additionally, a meth user can get as much now on the black market as they want, so availability isn't an issue.

Drug users generally don't want to O.D. and die, they want to do as much as they can without overdosing and dying, therefore living another day to get high again.

[LDA]

There really isn't a "safe dose" of meth. I agree that drugs would be safer if they could be legalized and the free market could take over. Meth addicts are basically going to kill themselves if they can pick some up over the counter at Wal-Mart, though.

Now, I don't know why you would even want to do meth if everything else was legal, but I'm sure some people would.


Additionally, a meth user can get as much now on the black market as they want, so availability isn't an issue.

That is true. That's probably part of the problem. The fact that it can just be made out of household ingredients makes it available, but it's also one of the worst drugs you can do.

[cheapseats]

Libertarians Need to Rethink Support for Drug Legalization

Pajamas media ("http:// pajamasmedia.com/blog/libertarians-need-to-rethink-support-for-drug-legalization/"[url)

December 22, 2009 - by Mary Grabar



...But I would argue that tradition should be a reason for its continued legal status and for denying legal status to marijuana...




Traditions in America include:

1.) locking up Black Men at wildly disproportionate rates
2.) turning blind eyes to Political Corruption, Executive Chicanery and Moneychangers in the Temple
3.) accommodating reckless cronyism and nepotism
4.) rapacious taxation and squandering of tax revenues

There are others. Shall we continue with them all? It is so much easier than Reform.

Mary Grabar argues in favor of INSTITUTIONALIZED INJUSTICE. In my understanding of Right and Wrong, that makes Mary Grabar an ENEMY OF THE PEOPLE.

I hope she gets hers this year, I really do. Not proactively advocating, just passively hoping.

[dannno]

There really isn't a "safe dose" of meth. I agree that drugs would be safer if they could be legalized and the free market could take over. Meth addicts are basically going to kill themselves if they can pick some up over the counter at Wal-Mart, though.

Now, I don't know why you would even want to do meth if everything else was legal, but I'm sure some people would.



That is true. That's probably part of the problem. The fact that it can just be made out of household ingredients makes it available, but it's also one of the worst drugs you can do.

First of all, are you aware that meth was sold to housewives in the 50s by door to door salesmen as an aid to help getting all of the house chores done?

There are plenty of people who have had practically endless supplies of meth (namely dealers and manufacturers today) who don't kill themselves and use it with a certain amount of moderation. With that said, it is a terrible drug that does a lot of damage on the long-term, and it really isn't good for you in the short term either. As far as drugs go, it is highly addictive. Some people who are addict inclined by genetics or what-have-you may kill themselves, but I would think that the purity and quality would be so great that I still think they would kill themselves over time, or more likely they will switch to other drugs that are more safe and less addictive.

The other theory, assuming they stick to meth, is that a lot of people would actually use less meth at once and may use either more or less over time, because when it is illegal they want to maximize the "high" by doing as much as possible in a short period of time.. because they are working off a limited supply and it's expensive, they want to get their money's worth. In this case, legalization may help some people decrease their usage. They know they have plenty of meth, and they always will, so there is no need to "get really high" right now, so instead they just use enough to maintain.

[MelissaWV]

If these drugs are so awful and so lethal, then once they are legalized, everyone who's a user will drop dead. Hey! Wouldn't that save social security, healthcare costs, and demonstrate in a VERY OBVIOUS WAY to people that the drug in question is dangerous and not worth taking up?

I don't mind people on meth. They're largely bonkers and they can get into trouble. When they make trouble, they can be picked up for the actual trouble they've made, and not the trouble that other users have made in the past. Meth *labs* should certainly be considered during the creation of contracts, such as zoning laws and rental agreements (and mortgages, since they'll undoubtedly still be around long after legalization). Those labs can get pretty dangerous, and in the case of rental property, they're going to cause damage to the property that the landlord is not going to easily be able to cover with the average security deposit.

[andrewh817]

The only negative aspects I can see to legalization are that eventually big money is going to take over the hemp/marijuana industry and eventually lobby for restrictions on selling (business regulation and citizen regulation) and eventually the bulk of marijuana being sold will carry pesticides and the organic stuff will be a lot harder to find and more expensive (like with fruits and vegetables).


[B]Marijuana, in contrast, has always been counter-cultural in the West. Every toke symbolizes a thumb in the eye of Western values. So it follows that in order to maintain our culture, we need to criminalize this drug.



Well actually in the 50's, early 60's, and before that most people didn't know what it was and didn't recognize the smell.... so there goes the first sentence. Not to mention the West has MUCH higher marijuana use than Japan or many other Eastern countries. As for the third part, what's so fucking great about this culture that we need to keep it the way it is?? Our education sucks, our government system sucks, there hasn't been much worthwhile art to come out of this society (especially in the music field) for 20 years, most of the people I talk to don't know shit about anything not advertised on tv..... Need I go on?

[JustinTime]

Doc Washburn and Burnie Thompson, I know both these guys personally!

IMO, the War on Drugs was a set up, designed to get us into a cycle of ever increasing control and not actually to end of curb drug use at all.

Works like this: Make something people want illegal, government knows that because people want it there will be a never-ending supply of arrestees. They then need money to arrest, try, and lock-up said people. Then, when the "war" isnt working (by design) they need increased policing power to catch the "bad guys", and stiffer penalities, and of course, more money, and so on and so on.

[Dreamofunity]

What the fuck did I just read?

[FindLiberty]

... No one has the right to tell someone what they can or cannot put in their own body...
Ok that's my little rant.

+100

[andrewh817]

What a fucking total load of crap. You either believe in liberty, self ownership and personal responsibility or you don't. There isn't a middle ground.

There is in the government. No matter how big or small the victory (if legalization passes) it's ALWAYS for the wrong reasons (budgetary and medical) because if the reason is self-ownership then the government can't morally exist at all.

[phill4paul]

There is in the government. No matter how big or small the victory (if legalization passes) it's ALWAYS for the wrong reasons (budgetary and medical) because if the reason is self-ownership then the government can't morally exist at all.

I worked as a manager in Charlottesville, VA at a place called Bodos' Bagels and we had about 10 different flavors of bagels. We sold the f*ck out of them because each one was delicious.

[AggieforPaul]

He's only putting into words what a lot of Christians are thinking. This girl I sat by in class last semester was telling me about how she had to argue for marijuana legalization and prostitution legalization in debate class, and how hard it was for her to argue against her values. She assumed that because I was a Christian I'd obviously sympathize, but I just changed the subject instead of being like "well actually...". I have a lot of Christian friends who will drink in moderation after turning 21, and still think taking a couple hits of mary jane is really really immoral just because of tradition.

[prophet]

"Drug" usage will only be condoned by the government when taxes garnered from it will surpass tax revenue to fight it.
We have not reached that place yet.we will probably never get there. I used to live in Florida, where the county sheriff had his own navy, air force and marines.

He had a couple of speedboats and several air boats(navy), a fixed wing and two choppers(air force) and a 100-man SWAT team(marine corps), all paid for with a combination of federal drug war grants and confiscated cash. Wanna bet that sheriff would like to see the "Drug War" brought to a a successful conclusion?

[DjLoTi]

Republicans don't! Legalize marijuana and leave the rest illegal. It's one step at a time! Marijuana is progressing faster then gay marriage, so that should work itself out.

Republicans want control over hard drugs for sure. Libertarians seem to think all drugs should be available. Lets just legalize weed and worry bout the rest later. Real drug prevention starts with education, perhaps taxes on marijuana could pay for that

And when I say republican, Ron Paul is synonymous with republican. Ron Paul is the only republican in my eyes

[revolutionary8]

Republicans don't! Legalize marijuana and leave the rest illegal. It's one step at a time! Marijuana is progressing faster then gay marriage, so that should work itself out.

Republicans want control over hard drugs for sure. Libertarians seem to think all drugs should be available. Lets just legalize weed and worry bout the rest later. Real drug prevention starts with education, perhaps taxes on marijuana could pay for that

And when I say republican, Ron Paul is synonymous with republican. Ron Paul is the only republican in my eyes

Marijuana is universal. It doesn't take a penis and a vagina, or a vagina and a vagina, or a penis and a penis. It just takes a fucking WEED.

It's so retardedly understandible, it has to be holy;. :) A lot of the retarded people are happy. Have you ever been envious, or wondered why?

[DjLoTi]

Have you ever been envious, or wondered why?

No, I'm well aware of the importance of perception. That defines the reason why my name is Liveontheisland. When I was 15, I thought if I could pretend hard enough I could feel like the beach was really 10 miles away. So I wanted an AOL screen name Liveonthebeach. But it was taken. So I choose Liveontheisland.

Point is, what you see is only what your brain allows you to see. If the beach is there, but you don't or can't know there is a beach, there really is no beach. But if there is no beach, and yet you think there is a beach, you can almost feel the waves of the ocean ;) I mean look @ me, obviously it worked :-P

[revolutionary8]

No, I'm well aware of the importance of perception. That defines the reason why my name is Liveontheisland. When I was 15, I thought if I could pretend hard enough I could feel like the beach was really 10 miles away. So I wanted an AOL screen name Liveonthebeach. But it was taken. So I choose Liveontheisland.

Point is, what you see is only what your brain allows you to see. If the beach is there, but you don't or can't know there is a beach, there really is no beach. But if there is no beach, and yet you think there is a beach, you can almost feel the waves of the ocean ;) I mean look @ me, obviously it worked :-P

:)

[Promontorium]

I was not previously aware of this website. I wondered, why would anyone even bother writing anything to libertarians. I mean, there's like 15 of them on Earth. Who gives a shit what they believe, they will never matter.

So I must conclude it's a neocon site. The only kind of people, willing to decry libertarians. In fact, that article really reminds me of Bill O' who welcomed John Stossel to Fox by yelling at him and saying his libertarian desire to legalize drugs would kill babies and ruin childhoods.

[revolutionary8]

I was not previously aware of this website. I wondered, why would anyone even bother writing anything to libertarians. I mean, there's like 15 of them on Earth. Who gives a shit what they believe, they will never matter.

So I must conclude it's a neocon site. The only kind of people, willing to decry libertarians. In fact, that article really reminds me of Bill O' who welcomed John Stossel to Fox by yelling at him and saying his libertarian desire to legalize drugs would kill babies and ruin childhoods.

as far as I am concerned, these days, neocns=libertarians. CIP--> Bob Barr

Now Ron Paul, Tom Woods, Walter Block, etc, they are a breed of their own... It isn't party, it is principle, and anyone who tries to blow fake snow up yer ass, tell em to fo.

[speciallyblend]

Fuck off Pajamas. No one has the right to tell someone what they can or cannot put in their own body. Do you believe in self-ownership or not, you fucking tyrants.


Ok that's my little rant.

ditto, i guess pajamas didn't get the memo that over 70% of our voters disagree with pajamas and this insane drug war...

especially marijuana,
pajamas watch, the movie the union and get clue/life...

[speciallyblend]

as far as I am concerned, these days, neocns=libertarians. CIP--> Bob Barr

Now Ron Paul, Tom Woods, Walter Block, etc, they are a breed of their own... It isn't party, it is principle, and anyone who tries to blow fake snow up yer ass, tell em to fo.

i hear you at one time i was lp for 12 yrs after the whole barr thing. i cannot see myself being a neo-con lper. so the lp marginalized themselves like the gop...

most of the lper's in our county are in control of the democratic party along with some conservative republicans who are now elected dems... the gop in colorado reminds me of the titanic..

[DjLoTi]

the gop in colorado reminds me of the titanic..

People are getting set in their ways, but I bet we could change them if we could! The republican party in Colorado has nothing to get excited about until 2012 and Ron Paul.

Honestly I think the liberal identity fits in Colorado. It's sort of like Vermont, but bigger and better =P

Actually idk, but weed is a big deal there. Even more liberal then California. For some reason, Colorado just cares about their pot! Maybe it's the beautiful mountains!

I just wonder how we can make Ron Paul the marijuana legalization candidate without having it backfire or go overboard...

[revolutionary8]

I think I might be becoming an anarcho-capitalist or some sort of minarchist (whateverthehell that means). I might even be on my way to anarchist.
:eek:

[speciallyblend]

People are getting set in their ways, but I bet we could change them if we could! The republican party in Colorado has nothing to get excited about until 2012 and Ron Paul.

Honestly I think the liberal identity fits in Colorado. It's sort of like Vermont, but bigger and better =P

Actually idk, but weed is a big deal there. Even more liberal then California. For some reason, Colorado just cares about their pot! Maybe it's the beautiful mountains!

I just wonder how we can make Ron Paul the marijuana legalization candidate without having it backfire or go overboard...

i hear you. if voters nationally motivate it can happen,every poll/ voter poll or not shows national support for marijuana legalization. the next few elections might wake the gop. i really do not think the gop will sweep elections like they think,especially when our local gop thinks they can win ignoring 70% of the voters who already support legalized marijuana. sometimes i wonder if the gop even thinks??? how they expect to get 70% of voters who support 100% legalized marijuana to vote against it is beyond me, 75 yrs of lies didn't work in Colorado. Colorado and our local counties should show the country that you can win on legalized weed, just VOTE;) honestly most ron paul republicans are still republican;) they just do not take their orders from their local gop. they take orders from a life long republican who happens to head the state CFL. honestly i no longer look to our gop for leadership. we just do what we have to do to hold them accountable. i cannot explain the actions of the gop here openly defying over 70% of voters!!! some would call it out right stupidity??

[DjLoTi]

i cannot explain the actions of the gop here openly defying over 70% of voters!!! some would call it out right stupidity??

If you can get then to lose the next election they will do whatever u want for 2012.. i bet lol.. imagine having no GOP in any position, they would go out of business. lol. It's good that you're involved with them, hopefully some day they'll view you as a leader of the local republican movement =) GJ Great story!

[Southron]

Why does every argument against drug legalization end up essentially saying "you want to inject heroin into babies!".

[Freedom 4 all]

Why does every argument against drug legalization end up essentially saying "you want to inject heroin into babies!".

I'd venture it's because they don't have anything remotely intelligent or rational to say and hence must attack idiotic strawman arguments.

[jkr]

i tTHINK i dont want to go to jail or be punished by "society" for growing or using my own herb.

[specsaregood]

When the cops and the foreign drug lords are on the same side of an issue...you know you are getting screwed.

[MelissaWV]

Why does every argument against drug legalization end up essentially saying "you want to inject heroin into babies!".

It's the simplest road to take. You could argue the other side, and say there should be zero restrictions on what anyone does to their own body. For some reason, a lot of people in society disagree with that concept, too.

They are personalizing the argument, and since they may see themselves as not being able to assert the proper control (over family members, for instance) they demand the Government do it. There's also a bit of transference: since anti-legalization people are largely (at least on the surface) against the drug use itself, there's a widespread belief that the pro-legalization people are all heartless, immoral druggies, straight out of an after school special.

[parocks]

If you're talking about taking popular political positions, you're pretty much right on.

Medical marijuana referendums almost always pass. Gay marriage referendums I believe always fail.

There haven't been too many flat out legalization of marijuana referendums, but I'd guess that they'd do better than gay marriage, and not quite as well as medical marijuana.

Legalization of marijuana is pretty popular right now. Other drugs, not so much.




Republicans don't! Legalize marijuana and leave the rest illegal. It's one step at a time! Marijuana is progressing faster then gay marriage, so that should work itself out.

Republicans want control over hard drugs for sure. Libertarians seem to think all drugs should be available. Lets just legalize weed and worry bout the rest later. Real drug prevention starts with education, perhaps taxes on marijuana could pay for that

And when I say republican, Ron Paul is synonymous with republican. Ron Paul is the only republican in my eyes

[andrewh817]

Legalization of marijuana is pretty popular right now. Other drugs, not so much.

And that's the problem I was pointing out earlier on this thread....... If things are legalized for the wrong reasons (like medical or financial with cannabis) then our society will never accept the principles of self-ownership and self-reliance.

[christagious]

I also hate the argument "would you want your doctor/surgeon/(insert asenine example here) smoking pot?" First of all, I don't think the illegality of pot is the reason why most doctors don't do it. Second, if it was legal and there were doctors doing it then I would have to assume that it's not as bad as I was taught since there are experts on human biology doing the stuff.