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Dunedain
12-26-2009, 04:18 PM
There has been a few people who suggest that unlimited illegal immigration is a good thing. I look at them as globalists who have found a chink in the armor of liberty in order to destroy it.

Anyone who would like to see globalism please identify yourself so we may know ye.

Romulus
12-26-2009, 04:21 PM
re: your sig line. Diversity of culture is not a bad thing.. diversity of ideology is.

No, I think a strict border policy is crucial to the integrity of our nation.

Met Income
12-26-2009, 04:28 PM
re: your sig line. Diversity of culture is not a bad thing.. diversity of ideology is.

No, I think a strict border policy is crucial to the integrity of our nation.

Diversity of ideology doesn't matter if the system in place does not use force to take from some to give to others. This is the root issue that gives us problems, not freedom to travel and work.

Met Income
12-26-2009, 04:30 PM
Also, the poll is skewed and therefore illegitimate. Your poll assumes a nation has rights. What is a nation? Individuals have rights.

Dieseler
12-26-2009, 04:33 PM
Diversity of ideology doesn't matter if the system in place does not use force to take from some to give to others.

Diversity of Ideology does matter however when the faction in power uses power to take from some to give to others while turning a blind eye at invaders who would vote for them to maintain that power illegally.


This is the root issue that gives us problems, not freedom to travel and work.

Dunedain
12-26-2009, 04:34 PM
Whoever votes No please identify yourself.

RevolutionSD
12-26-2009, 04:35 PM
rigged poll.
I support the free market in labor.
I do not believe in fictitional borders or bureaucrats that can perform anything or centralized planning, all of which are required to have "border enforcement".

Dieseler
12-26-2009, 04:35 PM
Also, the poll is skewed and therefore illegitimate. Your poll assumes a nation has rights. What is a nation? Individuals have rights.

Despite the nit picking most will understand the polls intent.

Dunedain
12-26-2009, 04:36 PM
rigged poll.
I support the free market in labor.
I do not believe in fictitional borders or bureaucrats that can perform anything or centralized planning, all of which are required to have "border enforcement".

Then you do not respect the United State's border and therefore are a domestic enemy of the United States.

RevolutionSD
12-26-2009, 04:40 PM
Then you do not respect the United State's border and therefore are a domestic enemy of the United States.

Then you do not support freedom and are an enemy of liberty.

t0rnado
12-26-2009, 04:42 PM
Then you do not respect the United State's border and therefore are a domestic enemy of the United States.

Then you're a fascist who wants to tell private property owners along the border who they can and cannot allow on their property.

Dieseler
12-26-2009, 04:44 PM
rigged poll.
I support the free market in labor.
I do not believe in fictitional borders or bureaucrats that can perform anything or centralized planning, all of which are required to have "border enforcement".

I support the Law that is on the books and respect the efforts that immigrants took in the past to become U.S. Citizens.
I support Ron Paul's position.
Enforce the laws on the books, we don't need reform in immigration anymore than we need Health Car reform especially at a time when are country is broke.
We need elected officials who will uphold the law.
What you consider to be the Free Market in Labor is nothing more than Corporatist Slavery. It is immediately induced upon the Illegal Immigrant and has now come to affect the Legal U.S. Citizen all in the name of profits and at the detriment of everyone else involved.

Dunedain
12-26-2009, 04:44 PM
Then you do not support freedom and are an enemy of liberty.

Liberty does not give you the right to come into my home unvited. I have the liberty to say, "Get Out".

Dunedain
12-26-2009, 04:45 PM
Then you're a fascist who wants to tell private property owners along the border who they can and cannot allow on their property.

As long as they don't cross the border or use any public roads feel free to magically teleport them to your home and back when you are done with them.

Dieseler
12-26-2009, 04:49 PM
Then you're a fascist who wants to tell private property owners along the border who they can and cannot allow on their property.

You only own the property up to Your property line.
Nothing outside of Your Property is yours alone.
The Law does not stop at your property line and Illegal hiring practices are still just that, Illegal and an extreme detriment to our economy due to the position it places corporate slaves into and by inducing them to apply for Government handouts in which the rest of us must pay for.

RevolutionSD
12-26-2009, 04:49 PM
Liberty does not give you the right to come into my home unvited. I have the liberty to say, "Get Out".

Do you own the U.S.? I respect private property rights, but you are talking about using the violence of the state against me, so you are certainly against liberty.

t0rnado
12-26-2009, 04:50 PM
As long as they don't cross the border or use any public roads feel free to magically teleport them to your home and back when you are done with them.

A person crossing the border into private property does not directly or indirectly impede upon your rights in any way.

RevolutionSD
12-26-2009, 04:50 PM
Dunedain, would you still be hell bent on keeping out so-called "illegals" if the welfare-warfare state did not exist? If so, why?

Danke
12-26-2009, 04:52 PM
Then you do not respect the United State's border and therefore are a domestic enemy of the United States.

Hate to break it to ya, but all of us are enemies to the United States.

Dieseler
12-26-2009, 04:53 PM
Do you own the U.S.? I respect private property rights, but you are talking about using the violence of the state against me, so you are certainly against liberty.

This is generally what happens when people break the law at the detriment of their fellow citizens.
Your argument is false however because our government has taken Your position and turns a blind eye due to its own agenda which is to maintain a poor handout driven population which continually votes for their welfare incentives.
Sadly I must say, you are winning despite being wrong.


Hate to break it to ya, but all of us are enemies to the United States.

Yep.

t0rnado
12-26-2009, 04:54 PM
You only own the property up to Your property line.
Nothing outside of Your Property is yours alone.
The Law does not stop at your property line and Illegal hiring practices are still just that, Illegal and an extreme detriment to our economy due to the position it places corporate slaves into and by inducing them to apply for Government handouts in which the rest of us must pay for.

You're thinking in collectivist terms. There no "our" economy. Whether some construction worker born one mile north of the Texas-Mexican border loses his job or whether a person born one mile south of the Texas-Mexican border gains a job does not bother me in the least bit. You addressed the problem in your post and that problem is government handouts.

RevolutionSD
12-26-2009, 04:56 PM
This is generally what happens when people break the law at the detriment of their fellow citizens.
Your argument is false however because our government has taken Your position and turns a blind eye due to its own agenda which is to maintain a poor handout driven population which continually votes for their welfare incentives.
Sadly I must say, you are winning despite being wrong.


So what would keeping out immigrants do to shrink government?
You are saying you are 1) for bureaucrats stealing money from us to "enforce the border", and 2) wanting to cut the branches instead of striking the root. The root of the problem is clearly the welfare-warfare state. If this were eliminated, why would you still give a shit about "border enforcement"? It's a non-issue.

Dunedain
12-26-2009, 04:56 PM
Dunedain, would you still be hell bent on keeping out so-called "illegals" if the welfare-warfare state did not exist? If so, why?

To be honest, if it would stop them I would turn my attention to other matters that are more critical. However, dismantling the system of entitlements is a road longer than the one to mars. Therefore, I prefer to attack the problem from all fronts.

So:

Border enforcement + less immigration + dismantling the welfare state = net positive for my children and my children's children.

nobody's_hero
12-26-2009, 04:57 PM
[Open borders] are okay as long as those coming across receive no welfare, understand the value of private property, understand limited government and self-responsibility.

But, S. America is one big socialist cluster****. —Something to consider when folks are pouring over the border.

Dieseler
12-26-2009, 04:58 PM
Dunedain, would you still be hell bent on keeping out so-called "illegals" if the welfare-warfare state did not exist? If so, why?

Not directed at me but the very reason our government allows them to pour into our country is the point exactly.
Stop and think about it.
This blind eye agenda provides the very votes that enables the welfare system to continue its expansion beyond any hope of ever being contained.
Mudhuts and mudpies is the outcome.
Feudal lordships and loyal Indentured servitude.

rpfan2008
12-26-2009, 04:58 PM
Dunedain, would you still be hell bent on keeping out so-called "illegals" if the welfare-warfare state did not exist? If so, why?


I didn't notice any significant infiltration of pro-illegals in the forums and look with their little numbers they had jeopardized the very border of that country, imagine an endless influx of them...what you see?

If something doesn't have a limit it doesn't mean it's endless on the outside...but it doesn't exist in the inside at all. How do you define an area that has no borders? It doesn't exist.

RevolutionSD
12-26-2009, 05:00 PM
To be honest, if it would stop them I would turn my attention to other matters that are more critical. However, dismantling the system of entitlements is a road longer than the one to mars. Therefore, I prefer to attack the problem from all fronts.

So:

Border enforcement + less immigration + dismantling the welfare state = net positive for my children and my children's children.

No way. By supporting "border control", you are supporting big government. If you are for liberty, you have to support the shrinking or elimination of government in all areas, and the absolute oppposition to state violence and theft.

RevolutionSD
12-26-2009, 05:00 PM
I didn't notice any significant infiltration of pro-illegals in the forums and look with their little numbers they had jeopardized the very border of that country, imagine an endless influx of them...what you see?

If something doesn't have a limit it doesn't mean it's endless on the outside...but it doesn't exist in the inside at all. How do you define an area that has no borders? It doesn't exist.

So you're problem is not with people breaking the law, but with brown people?

Dieseler
12-26-2009, 05:01 PM
So what would keeping out immigrants do to shrink government?
You are saying you are 1) for bureaucrats stealing money from us to "enforce the border", and 2) wanting to cut the branches instead of striking the root. The root of the problem is clearly the welfare-warfare state. If this were eliminated, why would you still give a shit about "border enforcement"? It's a non-issue.

I'm basically trying to make the point to you that this blind eye to Illegal Immigration agenda is Endgame.
If you do not see that then you are missing the big picture.
I am fully aware that my wishes will not be carried out.
The law will not be obeyed because it would stop the bleeding if it were.
The intent is as I said before.
Mudhuts and mudpies, third world America for all with Feudal Lords and loyal Indentured servitude for all below.

RevolutionSD
12-26-2009, 05:01 PM
Not directed at me but the very reason our government allows them to pour into our country is the point exactly.
Stop and think about it.
This blind eye agenda provides the very votes that enables the welfare system to continue its expansion beyond any hope of ever being contained.
Mudhuts and mudpies is the outcome.
Feudal lordships and loyal Indentured servitude.

By supporting border control you are supporting the expansion of government, which is an anti-liberty position.

Dieseler
12-26-2009, 05:02 PM
So you're problem is not with people breaking the law, but with brown people?

Uncalled for tactic.

Dieseler
12-26-2009, 05:03 PM
By supporting border control you are supporting the expansion of government, which is an anti-liberty position.

I'm not an anarchist by any stretch of the mind if that helps.
I'm for a fair playing field and I would appreciate elected officials who uphold the law.
Address my points.

Dunedain
12-26-2009, 05:04 PM
No way. By supporting "border control", you are supporting big government. If you are for liberty, you have to support the shrinking or elimination of government in all areas, and the absolute oppposition to state violence and theft.

So if the Mexican army invaded, controlling them at the border would be considered support for big government? These illegals are costing us at the welfare office already, let's spend some cash on border enforcement.

Have a couple of children, mature a little bit, and then think about what you are saying.

Dunedain
12-26-2009, 05:08 PM
So you're problem is not with people breaking the law, but with brown people?

It sounds like you are an anti-white racist when you say stuff like this. I would stick to more logical arguments (I know it is a challenge when you are arguing for giving away America to foreigners). I was once young and stupid also.

jbrace
12-26-2009, 05:11 PM
The questioning of the pole is going to produce skewed results. One question I have though and maybe some of you can answer this. What about a man with a family, living in a foreign country that wants a better quality of life for his family? And he sees an opportunity here in our country. Who are we to deprive this man of his quality of life? How are we given the right to deprive a man of this freedom? I don't believe enough of you truly understand free market economics to see why immigration can be a good thing, but not with the welfare state we do have. (social security, min wage laws etc.)

Chaohinon
12-26-2009, 05:14 PM
I support freedom from coercive border-claims

Dieseler
12-26-2009, 05:15 PM
I support freedom from coercive border-claims

Globalist.
When you get that it won't be what you envisioned.
If we're losing and you help, you lose to.

Maybe I just hit on something there...
Hmm.

bobbyw24
12-26-2009, 05:15 PM
So if the Mexican army invaded, controlling them at the border would be considered support for big government? These illegals are costing us at the welfare office already, let's spend some cash on border enforcement.

Have a couple of children, mature a little bit, and then think about what you are saying.

I know right

rpfan2008
12-26-2009, 05:17 PM
The questioning of the pole is going to produce skewed results. One question I have though and maybe some of you can answer this. What about a man with a family living in a foreign country that wants a better quality of life and he sees an opportunity here in our country. Who are we to deprive this man of quality of life if he wants to better himself? How are we given the right to deprive a man of this freedom? I don't believe enough of you truly understand free market economics to see why immigration can be a good thing, but not with the welfare state we do have.

What quality of life nonsense you are throwing up???

So to give that man a quality life one country should destroy it's own borders altogether? How many people should be given quality life inside one country? What should be the deciding rule for that number?? Or should it be open ended, come as many of you want.

Brian4Liberty
12-26-2009, 05:19 PM
Then you do not respect the United State's border and therefore are a domestic enemy of the United States.

You can't assume that the people arguing for open US borders are US citizens... ;)

Dieseler
12-26-2009, 05:20 PM
You can't assume that the people arguing for open US borders are US citizens... ;)

Damn good point.

Kludge
12-26-2009, 05:20 PM
I don't respect this occupation government. Why would I respect its "rights"?

Oh -- but I change my vote realizing I'm an idiot. I would obviously respect the United States' right to restrict fellows' liberties if I voted for it. It has that right if I allow it.

Dieseler
12-26-2009, 05:22 PM
I don't respect this occupation government. Why would I respect its "rights"?

Our government certainly is occupied by something, and it ain't us.

Brian4Liberty
12-26-2009, 05:24 PM
Globalist.
When you get that it won't be what you envisioned.


You mean that the people that are currently ruling our country and successfully implementing a global socialist government aren't going to abolish themselves and step down after all of the nations are eliminated? You just need to believe Dieseler. Don't be so negative!

LibertyEagle
12-26-2009, 05:27 PM
Interesting thread.

heavenlyboy34
12-26-2009, 05:28 PM
Then you're a fascist who wants to tell private property owners along the border who they can and cannot allow on their property.

+a zillion. Well played. :cool:

jbrace
12-26-2009, 05:28 PM
What quality of life nonsense you are throwing up???

So to give that man a quality life one country should destroy it's own borders altogether? How many people should be given quality life inside one country? What should be the deciding rule for that number?? Or should it be open ended, come as many of you want.

How would this ruins one country? I mean quality of life by, if a man wants to come work hard here and reap the benefits of freedom, then so be it. I have no right and neither do you to tell a man he can't. Noone decides what country they can be born, I mean, put yourself on the other side of the coin. What if you were born in a third world country? I'm not saying having open borders, but lesson the restrictions to get in the state, yes. Allow them to be on the books and pay income taxes, social security, yes) (which I don't agree with, but one plus it will help with the fall of our current system.) Also, If we got rid of min wage laws, de-regulated costly business regulations that send jobs over seas... etc Then this wouldn't be an issue, because we would need more lower wage workers. You guys are missing the whole point because you have been conditioned in economics with our current welfare state.

rpfan2008
12-26-2009, 05:31 PM
You can't assume that the people arguing for open US borders are US citizens... ;)

LOL

Illegal wannabes???
So for them it's like a preparation for emigration interviews and tests HAHA

LE can I ask for a favor, again? :p

paulitics
12-26-2009, 05:33 PM
Do we sometimes forget that it is the United States of America, and not the United States of North America?

America is not a state, but a country that allows the free movement of people within its borders. In other words, there need not be checkpoints to get from Texas to Kansas. What some espouse here, a continent without borders, is a globalist position hellbent one dstroying the soverignty of America. Fuck that.

Lets worry about own country right now, and restore sovereignty to the states. Do we really want to be like the EU, and wake up to an unelected beauracracy ruling over us?

I guess I'm not a globalist.

Kludge
12-26-2009, 05:35 PM
Do we really want to be like the EU, and wake up to an unelected beauracracy ruling over us?

uh................... mate?

rpfan2008
12-26-2009, 05:39 PM
How would this ruins one country? I mean quality of life by, if a man wants to come work hard here and reap the benefits of freedom, then so be it. I have no right and neither do you to tell a man he can't. Noone decides what country they can be born, I mean, put yourself on the other side of the coin. What if you were born in a third world country? I'm not saying having open borders, but lesson the restrictions to get in the state, yes. Allow them to be on the books and pay income taxes, social security, yes) (which I don't agree with, but one plus it will help with the fall of our current system.) Also, If we got rid of min wage laws, de-regulated costly business regulations that send jobs over seas... etc Then this wouldn't be an issue, because we would need more lower wage workers. You guys are missing the whole point because you have been conditioned in economics with our current welfare state.

I am from a poorer country u assh*le

but rather than dreaming of freebies in a foreign land I'd rather have my energy and efforts spent on making my own country better, even if I can't succeed in my own life my future generations would. And if they can't then it means we don't deserve it.

Don't you think I have right to have a mother, c'mon I just want some motherly affection and kindness, am I asking for too much...if my mom wasn't there is it right to claim someone else's mother as my own?? Just because that woman can 'accomodate' one more sonny?

LibForestPaul
12-26-2009, 05:42 PM
I respect an individual Mexican Mafioso to come here and set up his extortion ring unabated. As any liberty loving individual should. Screening individuals before entering this land is an affront to their liberties, and abhor people being denied their liberties, as any red blooded Ron Paul supporter would.

Gives us your whores, your elderly and invalids, your Moms with ten children, your crooks and thieves, because we are a land of a plenty of mini-archaists with deep open charitable pockets.

tremendoustie
12-26-2009, 05:43 PM
Can't we have honest polls here, rather than ones biased to favor a particular viewpoint?

For example: I support open borders
I do not support open borders.

A nation has no rights, only individuals have rights. The question is balloney to begin with.

heavenlyboy34
12-26-2009, 05:45 PM
Can't we have honest polls here, rather than ones biased to favor a particular viewpoint?

For example: I support open borders
I do not support open borders.

A nation has no rights, only individuals have rights. The question is balloney to begin with.

+a zillion! :cool:

rpfan2008
12-26-2009, 05:46 PM
^ This poll is an extension of some other thread, so OP seems to have set it up in hurry. Check out that "LaRaza sues..." thread and you will get the real point of this poll. But I agree with you on the biased thing.

Dieseler
12-26-2009, 05:47 PM
Can't we have honest polls here, rather than ones biased to favor a particular viewpoint?

For example: I support open borders
I do not support open borders.

A nation has no rights, only individuals have rights. The question is balloney to begin with.

Well its a matter of semantics and you are right I suppose to question the wording of the poll itself but like I said, I believe the intent of the poll is quite easy enough to perceive without nit picking.


I respect an individual Mexican Mafioso to come here and set up his extortion ring unabated. As any liberty loving individual should. Screening individuals before entering this land is an affront to their liberties, and abhor people being denied their liberties, as any red blooded Ron Paul supporter would.

Gives us your whores, your elderly and invalids, your Moms with ten children, your crooks and thieves, because we are a land of a plenty of mini-archaists with deep open charitable pockets.

:D
That's the Spirit.

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 05:49 PM
There has been a few people who suggest that unlimited illegal immigration is a good thing. I look at them as globalists who have found a chink in the armor of liberty in order to destroy it.

Anyone who would like to see globalism please identify yourself so we may know ye.

Free-trade is Globalism. Globalism is only bad when it pertains to the State.

Secondly, I support a persons right to private property, do you?

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 05:50 PM
Can't we have honest polls here, rather than ones biased to favor a particular viewpoint?

For example: I support open borders
I do not support open borders.

A nation has no rights, only individuals have rights. The question is balloney to begin with.

This.

jbrace
12-26-2009, 05:51 PM
I am from a poorer country u assh*le

but rather than dreaming of freebies in a foreign land I'd rather have my energy and efforts spent on making my own country better, even if I can't succeed in my own life my future generations would. And if they can't then it means we don't deserve it.

Don't you think I have right to have a mother, c'mon I just want some motherly affection and kindness, am I asking for too much...if my mom wasn't there is it right to claim someone else's mother as my own?? Just because that woman can 'accomodate' one more sonny?

I said: "...if a man wants to come work hard here and reap the benefits of freedom, then so be it" So how is that a freebie? Only freebie would be from our current welfare state, which none of us agree with. So your logic is broken, and invalid. Your metaphor in no way correlates to the matters at hand. Your missing the point, I do support immigration and I do support lessening the restrictions on citizens wanting to come to our country. Does it mean I want open borders, no. Does it mean I support everyone that wants to reap the benefits of freedom and a free-market, yes.

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 05:55 PM
Where is that Lew Rockwell quote....


"The Right hates liberals more than the State."

Here I'll fix it:


"Americans hate immigrants more than the Welfare State, which creates all the problems."

Instead of correctly identifying the problem you rush and blast the natural consequence of the policies. START ATTACKING THE POLICIES NOT THE DAMN IMMIGRANTS.

Seriously, do any of you believe that this Government can actually secure our borders, when they can't even run the USPS for a profit?

That the Government is inept in all of its faculties, yet, they will suddenly be able to control thousands of miles of borders....What fantasy world are you guys living in?!

Dianne
12-26-2009, 05:57 PM
I do not support any illegal immigration. We have a President who did that, and look where it got us.

If you want to come to the United States, do so legally. If you want to rape and pillage the United States, then join the Senate and do it legally.

rpfan2008
12-26-2009, 05:59 PM
I said: "...if a man wants to come work hard here and reap the benefits of freedom, then so be it" So how is that a freebie?

How it isn't?

Do you think the freedom that Americans enjoy today was there always?
Their forefathers paid dearly for those freedoms and expected to pass it to their future generations as inheritance (the US constitution and Bill of Rights being the will). You are here to "enjoy" those freedoms and goodies without having a stake in achieving them, aren't you lusting to enjoy that hard earned freedom for free?

You will only "work hard" to fill your own pockets.

jbrace
12-26-2009, 06:01 PM
Where is that Lew Rockwell quote....


"The Right hates liberals more than the State."

Here I'll fix it:


"Americans hate immigrants more than the Welfare State, which creates all the problems."

Instead of correctly identifying the problem you rush and blast the natural consequence of the policies. START ATTACKING THE POLICIES NOT THE DAMN IMMIGRANTS.

Seriously, do any of you believe that this Government can actually secure our borders, when they can't even run the USPS for a profit?

That the Government is inept in all of its faculties, yet, they will suddenly be able to control thousands of miles of borders....What fantasy world are you guys living in?!

Thank you, Sir!!

YumYum
12-26-2009, 06:03 PM
I said: "...if a man wants to come work hard here and reap the benefits of freedom, then so be it" So how is that a freebie? Only freebie would be from our current welfare state, which none of us agree with. So your logic is broken, and invalid. Your metaphor in no way correlates to the matters at hand. Your missing the point, I do support immigration and I do support lessening the restrictions on citizens wanting to come to our country. Does it mean I want open borders, no. Does it mean I support everyone that wants to reap the benefits of freedom and a free-market, yes.

You want this country to be a Free Market Utopia, but is not, and never will be. What country can I go to that will accept me with open arms and give me welfare? Believe it or not, it is the socialist European countries. You say "if a man wants to come work hard here and reap the benefits of freedom, then so be it', as if you took that out of some romantic novel about someone who landed at Ellis Island in 1900, when there was a ton of jobs. This is 2009, and our economy is collapsing. The illegals are coming here to work, but when they can't find work they live on taxpayer's money. Lose your job or your business to an illegal alien and see if you feel the same way.

Dianne
12-26-2009, 06:04 PM
Americans hate immigrants more than the Welfare State, which creates all the problems."

That's bull****... This is what the media uses.. People have no gripe about legal immigration, as we are all immigrants.

We do have a problem with millions of illegals being sent over here to steal our dollars... free medical care... free college tuition..... no federal income tax..

Do you have those benefits? Then why the f&** to you pay it for millions of people who have been sent here to rob you?

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 06:09 PM
Americans hate immigrants more than the Welfare State, which creates all the problems."

That's bull****... This is what the media uses.. People have no gripe about legal immigration, as we are all immigrants.

We do have a problem with millions of illegals being sent over here to steal our dollars... free medical care... free college tuition..... no federal income tax..

Do you have those benefits? Then why the f&** to you pay it for millions of people who have been sent here to rob you?

I'm wondering, who is sending them over? They want a better standard of living as we all do. Stop pointing to them as the problem. Don't even mention them for fucks sake, because the context and implication is blindingly obvious. Start attacking the motherfuckers who instituted this shit. Start educating people about moral hazard. It does us no good to bash immigrants. I also refuse to acknowledge the illegal part. As far as I am concerned, I am the sole owner of all my property, I can have who I want, on my own property and I don't consider them illegal. If you don't want immigrants on your property, then stand out there with a checkpoint and start carding people.

Of course we have a problem, but it isn't with immigrants. Immigrants make up a very small portion of those on the Welfare State. How come you only attack immigrants and not "citizens"? I'd be surprised if immigrants even make up 5-10% of Welfarism. It's Welfarism that is the culprit. Stop trying to shift blame.

jbrace
12-26-2009, 06:10 PM
How it isn't?

Do you think the freedom that Americans enjoy today was there always?
Their forefathers paid dearly for those freedoms and expected to pass it to their future generations as inheritance (the US constitution and Bill of Rights being the will). You are here to "enjoy" those freedoms and goodies without having a stake in achieving them, aren't you lusting to enjoy that hard earned freedom for free?

You will only "work hard" to fill your own pockets.


No I'm lusting to enjoy that hard earned freedom by hard work and any other man that wants to join me can; freedom knows nothing of prejudice. Our fathers died for freedom for everyone, not just a select inhertited group. All men are by nature equally free and independent and I will continue to fight for this right.

jbrace
12-26-2009, 06:15 PM
You want this country to be a Free Market Utopia, but is not, and never will be. What country can I go to that will accept me with open arms and give me welfare? Believe it or not, it is the socialist European countries. You say "if a man wants to come work hard here and reap the benefits of freedom, then so be it', as if you took that out of some romantic novel about someone who landed at Ellis Island in 1900, when there was a ton of jobs. This is 2009, and our economy is collapsing. The illegals are coming here to work, but when they can't find work they live on taxpayer's money. Lose your job or your business to an illegal alien and see if you feel the same way.


I'll simply reply with this:


I'm wondering, who is sending them over? They want a better standard of living as we all do. Stop pointing to them as the problem. Don't even mention them for fucks sake, because the context and implication is blindingly obvious. Start attacking the motherfuckers who instituted this shit. Start educating people about moral hazard. It does us no good to bash immigrants. I also refuse to acknowledge the illegal part. As far as I am concerned, I am the sole owner of all my property, I can have who I want, on my own property and I don't consider them illegal. If you don't want immigrants on your property, then stand out there with a checkpoint and start carding people.

Of course we have a problem, but it isn't with immigrants. Immigrants make up a very small portion of those on the Welfare State. How come you only attack immigrants and not "citizens"? I'd be surprised if immigrants even make up 5-10% of Welfarism. It's Welfarism that is the culprit. Stop trying to shift blame.

Dieseler
12-26-2009, 06:16 PM
No I'm lusting to enjoy that hard earned freedom by hard work and any other man that wants to join me can; freedom knows nothing of prejudice. Our fathers died for freedom for everyone, not just a select inhertited group. All men are by nature equally free and independent and I will continue to fight for this right.

Every man has to come to his own conclusions and make his mind where he stands no matter how wrong he might be judged in his stance or assertions in the end.
Pay attention to the actions and mannerisms of your allies as they move forward however.
I'll see you on the field.


I'll simply reply with this:

A : ?

Oh!
Your using another posters words.
OK.
A war of wits is hard to fight when you show up unarmed.

27 - 10
Looks like a football score so far.

jbrace
12-26-2009, 06:26 PM
Every man has to come to his own conclusions and make his mind where he stands no matter how wrong he might be judged in his stance or assertions in the end.
Pay attention to the actions and mannerisms of your allies as they move forward however.
I'll see you on the field.



A : ?

Oh!
Your using another posters words.
OK.
A war of wits is hard to fight when you show up unarmed.

Yes I will, because he's advocating the same things I am and obviously I'm not getting across my point. You obviously have no understanding of Austrian Economics, because if u did then you would understand that the blame needs to be on the system not the illegals! You guys are just shifting the blame. I've explained by position and if you can't see it by now, then, so be it. I guess that old adage is right... you can lead a horse to the water, but you cant make him drink.

A war of wits it's hard to fight when your enemy is a moron.

What do you suppose the actions and mannerisms of my allies with be?

rpfan2008
12-26-2009, 06:27 PM
No I'm lusting to enjoy that hard earned freedom by hard work and any other man that wants to join me can; freedom knows nothing of prejudice. Our fathers died for freedom for everyone, not just a select inhertited group. All men are by nature equally free and independent and I will continue to fight for this right.

LOL
This time you posted only feel good words...and no argument.

Those forefathers you mentioned died only to secure their own freedoms. They secured their own land and retreated to their personal lives. They preserved their freedom with so exclusivity that even the blacks were not a part of it (which was injustice though), so this propaganda that "Our fathers died for freedom for everyone, not just a select inhertited group" is an empty rhetoric. Since those citizens who had a stake in building that country are rightful owners of their parents property (also the Blacks who were inside the country, and other races including the Latinos who were there) and nobody else. "All men are by nature equally free and independent" ...that doesn't mean one should be forced (or tricked) to share his property with others unless he himself chooses to.

And I don't think people here are stopping you from working hard or enjoying, just telling you to do it in a legal way.

Akus
12-26-2009, 06:33 PM
Also, the poll is skewed and therefore illegitimate. Your poll assumes a nation has rights. What is a nation? Individuals have rights.

I second that. Not everyone who thinks illegal immigration is OK or is a non issue eat babies for breakfast you know. If people want to come, you can't do shit to stop them, plain and simple.

Dieseler
12-26-2009, 06:34 PM
Yes I will, because he's advocating the same things I am and obviously I'm not getting across my point. You obviously have no understanding of Austrian Economics, because if u did then you would see how you guys are just shifting the blame. I've explained by position and if you can't see it by now, then, so be it. I guess that old adage is right... you can lead a horse to the water, but you cant make him drink.

Well if you continue to hold that position, which has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Austrian Economics IMO, (Are you talking about the poster or economic theory here?) then you will eventually... Wait a minute..

What the fuck are you talking about?

I thought the discussion was on Illegal Immigration, porous border security, ignored immigration laws and the bankruptcy of the United States due to Corporate Slavers Profit margins leading to a collapsed welfare State being divided into a Feudal Kingdom led by International bankers.
Maybe I was wrong.
27 - 10
Still early in the first though.

Dunedain
12-26-2009, 06:45 PM
A solid majority support the idea of a nation with a border. However, I'm very uncomfortable with the idea that a 1/3rd would support no borders / globalism. We've got more lefties than the democratic party.

revolutionisnow
12-26-2009, 06:46 PM
I'm wondering, who is sending them over? They want a better standard of living as we all do. Stop pointing to them as the problem. Don't even mention them for fucks sake, because the context and implication is blindingly obvious. Start attacking the motherfuckers who instituted this shit. Start educating people about moral hazard. It does us no good to bash immigrants. I also refuse to acknowledge the illegal part. As far as I am concerned, I am the sole owner of all my property, I can have who I want, on my own property and I don't consider them illegal. If you don't want immigrants on your property, then stand out there with a checkpoint and start carding people.

Of course we have a problem, but it isn't with immigrants. Immigrants make up a very small portion of those on the Welfare State. How come you only attack immigrants and not "citizens"? I'd be surprised if immigrants even make up 5-10% of Welfarism. It's Welfarism that is the culprit. Stop trying to shift blame.

"A new study from the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) examines the costs of education, health care and incarceration of illegal aliens, and concludes that the costs to Californians is $10.5 billion per year.

Among the key finding of the report are that the state's already struggling K-12 education system spends approximately $7.7 billion a year to school the children of illegal aliens who now constitute 15 percent of the student body. Another $1.4 billion of the taxpayers' money goes toward providing health care to illegal aliens and their families, the same amount that is spent incarcerating illegal aliens criminals."

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationnaturalizatio/a/caillegals.htm

Labor can not compete with a global market. I'm sure if I had a stack of H-1 visas a computer, and a telephone I could probably find someone from the international job pool to do almost every job cheaper. I would start with the white collar jobs, since it seems they are the ones who do not care when the blue collar ones are outsourced or given away to illegals. I am sure I could find plenty of English speaking doctors from the Philippines and India who would work for about half the salary of US doctors. The massage and sports therapy industry workers here in the US are also overpaid when comparing them to their peers in Asia. Instead of making 50 an hour, I bet I could find someone that could do the same job for around 10 an hour.

YumYum
12-26-2009, 06:47 PM
Yes I will, because he's advocating the same things I am and obviously I'm not getting across my point. You obviously have no understanding of Austrian Economics, because if u did then you would understand that the blame needs to be on the system not the illegals! You guys are just shifting the blame. I've explained by position and if you can't see it by now, then, so be it. I guess that old adage is right... you can lead a horse to the water, but you cant make him drink.

A war of wits it's hard to fight when your enemy is a moron.

What do you suppose the actions and mannerisms of my allies with be?

If you want Austrian economics you need to move to Afghanistan. There, you can do eveything you speak of wanting to do, just like the illegals want from this country, you can be what you want to be in Afghanistan. You can use as a medium of exchange a goat for brain surgery. We don't have an Austrian economic system in this country, so we are addressing our current problems as to how they affect our current economic system. Its called the real world. I like Disneyland, but Disney dollars aren't gonna pay my bills.

jbrace
12-26-2009, 06:48 PM
"A new study from the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) examines the costs of education, health care and incarceration of illegal aliens, and concludes that the costs to Californians is $10.5 billion per year.

Among the key finding of the report are that the state's already struggling K-12 education system spends approximately $7.7 billion a year to school the children of illegal aliens who now constitute 15 percent of the student body. Another $1.4 billion of the taxpayers' money goes toward providing health care to illegal aliens and their families, the same amount that is spent incarcerating illegal aliens criminals."

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationnaturalizatio/a/caillegals.htm

Labor can not compete with a global market. I'm sure if I had a stack of H-1 visas a computer, and a telephone I could probably find someone from the international job pool to do almost every job cheaper. I would start with the white collar jobs, since it seems they are the ones who do not care when the blue collar ones are outsourced or given away to illegals. I am sure I could find plenty of English speaking doctors from the Philippines and India who would work for about half the salary of US doctors. The massage and sports therapy industry workers here in the US are also overpaid when comparing them to their peers in Asia. Instead of making 50 an hour, I bet I could find someone that could do the same job for around 10 an hour.



I'm not advocating open borders, but I am saying don't place the blame on illegals when its our welfare state to blame!! Your trying to treat a symptom instead of the problem.

Dieseler
12-26-2009, 06:48 PM
A solid majority support the idea of a nation with a border. However, I'm very uncomfortable with the idea that a 1/3rd would support no borders / globalism. We've got more lefties than the democratic party.

I would imagine that the globalist welcome the news as well.
We're gonna lose man, of this I have no doubt.
But let it not be said that we went down without a fight.

Reason
12-26-2009, 06:49 PM
rigged poll.


Indeed

jbrace
12-26-2009, 06:53 PM
If you want Austrian economics you need to move to Afghanistan. There, you can do eveything you speak of wanting to do, just like the illegals want from this country, you can be what you want to be in Afghanistan. You can use as a medium of exchange a goat for brain surgery. We don't have an Austrian economic system in this country, so we are addressing our current problems as to how they affect our current economic system. Its called the real world. I like Disneyland, but Disney dollars aren't gonna pay my bills.

LOL, you can't be a true libertarian and not support Austrian Economics. You neo-conservatives that have transferred to the Libertarian party scare me. Austrian economics isn't about a barter system. You obviously have no idea what your talking about. I suggest spending some time on www.mises.org and enlighten yourself. Your right we don't have Austrian economics, we have a majorly flawed Keynsian economic model. So start by ending the welfare state and fixing our current system instead of shifting the blame! I like the real world too and Austrian Economics advocate for a gold system, and your fiat money system won't pay the bills in the future; gold will.

rpfan2008
12-26-2009, 06:54 PM
"Some old established members support open borders, so it must have some noble reason.."

&


"Brad Pitt wears xyz so that must be good "

same shit different viscosities...
probably same hands paying both shitters

Dunedain
12-26-2009, 06:54 PM
I'm not advocating open borders, but I am saying don't place the blame on illegals when its our welfare state to blame!! Your trying to treat a symptom instead of the problem.

Right, the disease is government and the traitors that encourage the symptoms. The symptoms are the 3rd world invading our world and pillaging our resources to point of national bankruptcy. We need to treat both if we are too survive. If we treat the symptom (illegals) and not the disease (government) the symptoms will come back and kill us eventually. If we treat the disease and not the symptoms, the symptoms will still kill us.

jbrace
12-26-2009, 06:56 PM
Well if you continue to hold that position, which has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Austrian Economics IMO, (Are you talking about the poster or economic theory here?) then you will eventually... Wait a minute..

What the fuck are you talking about?

I thought the discussion was on Illegal Immigration, porous border security, ignored immigration laws and the bankruptcy of the United States due to Corporate Slavers Profit margins leading to a collapsed welfare State being divided into a Feudal Kingdom led by International bankers.
Maybe I was wrong.
27 - 10
Still early in the first though.


bankruptcy of the United States due to Corporate Slavers Profit margins leading to a collapsed welfare State being divided into a Feudal Kingdom led by International bankers... This has NOTHING to do with immigration, it has everything to do with our welfare state, our model of economics we follow, and our blindness to following the constitution!

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 06:57 PM
Well if you continue to hold that position, which has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Austrian Economics IMO, (Are you talking about the poster or economic theory here?) then you will eventually... Wait a minute..

What the fuck are you talking about?

I thought the discussion was on Illegal Immigration, porous border security, ignored immigration laws and the bankruptcy of the United States due to Corporate Slavers Profit margins leading to a collapsed welfare State being divided into a Feudal Kingdom led by International bankers.
Maybe I was wrong.
27 - 10
Still early in the first though.

It has everything to do with Austrian Economic Philosophy. Modern day Austrianism is largely Rothbardianism. He built on the proverbial genuises that came before him, and HH Hoppe and Walter Block and building on that foundation.

Let us break this down.

Austrian Econ. shows us how policies always have unintended consequences, generally these arise from "moral hazard". You see, people flooding to latch onto a safety net that provides as good, or better of a living standard than they previously had is a consequence of the policies of Welfarism. Just as Europe is experiencing it themselves, we are too. The problem however, that many identify here is, that its the immigrants problem and if we just deported them it would be all better, or at the very least if we slowed their immigration to a trickle. This couldn't be farther from the truth. For one, immigrants make up a very small portion of Welfarism. It's Welfarism that is the sole contributor of our problems, not the consequences it produces. Do you want to fix the problem or not? Having draconian police state measures is only going to make things worse.

For someone who is into TPBT you are very quick to want to position troops on our "borders" and build walls, and all other sorts of Animal Farm measures. Don't you realize that, a wall keeps things both in, and out? Granted, in realist terms, the Government cannot stop immigration. They will come either way. Look at East Germany for crying out loud. People will try dying to get into the country and those people are some of the most ingenious people there are, and no one can stop them especially not a Government which can't do anything! If East Germany and the Communist Bloc cannot stop people fleeing their border with walls, armed guards, patrols, and a suffocating tyranny and Police State, then nothing will.

Secondly, as to our natural rights. I dismiss the notion of a social contract out-right. Only people have rights, and only the individual can exercise those rights. I never gave my consent for this current Government, therefore, I do not acknowledge it as legitimate. The only border there is, is my property border. Within my property I will have who I want, when I want, how I want. Same goes for others. If you don't want "illegal" immigrants on your property, then get out there and stop them.

As for Corporate slavers.....Do you mean Wal-Mart? Most Corporations, at least, outside construction and menial agriculture work require a modest amount of education. Many immigrants that come here, do not have such requirements. Therefore, if Wal-Mart and Agriculture Corps. can bankrupt this nation, then hell, why are we trying to End the Fed? Let's just End WM and Agri! What's bankrupting this nation is the Welfare/Warfare State.

Now, you ask. How did this come to be? Well, it's built into the very essence of this Government. A piece of paper can never enforce itself, and when the State has a monopoly on force and law, then us lowly people cannot even dare touch it. It's a fruitless exercise. What we are experience is a natural course of events for every State. Until you rectify your absurd nationalism and patriotism with this fact, the world, or at least the US will be going through these cyclical periods forever. I cannot stress enough how antiquated the notion of the State is. It's like I'm living in the 16th Century telling people about liberalism. You are equivalent to tories who cannot imagine anything other than Monarchy since well, thats just the way things have always been. So, if you want to stop this destruction once and for all, please correctly identify the problems. All these problems stem from gaping holes in both philosophy and policy. Until you learn this, and until many of us learn this, we are doomed forever.

Feudalism is dead. It won't come back. At worst we will get a grueling Fascist State. Which is the current path we are on. This just means more war, more tyranny, and more death.

I'll break down philosophy and policy, which go hand-in-hand.

Philosophy: A State is required, or else all civilization collapses. In essence, you are saying that theft, monopoly, and a mafia is a requirement for civilization. I dismiss this on the outset. In our daily interactions, both personal and in the market, we get along just fine without those three requirements that you persist must be met or else chaos will reign. Frankly, history tells us otherwise.

Policy: Now that you have enshrined these virtues, let us see how they turn out. Obviously, people that just want to be left alone or have no desire to rule over others will never seek office. Those who prefer the opposite are exactly the people who seek office. In the end, what you get are people who want subserviance and who enact legislation which they deem to be beneficial because they believe they know better for us. This is the natural occurence of our type of State and for every State. As HHH puts it:


"What is true, just, and beautiful is not determined by popular vote. The masses everywhere are ignorant, short-sighted, motivated by envy, and easy to fool. Democratic politicians must appeal to these masses in order to be elected. Whoever is the best demagogue will win. Almost by necessity, then, democracy will lead to the perversion of truth, justice and beauty" -- Hans-Hermann Hoppe

You see, the problem is not with immigration its with the System itself.

jbrace
12-26-2009, 06:59 PM
Right, the disease is government and the traitors that encourage the symptoms. The symptoms are the 3rd world invading our world and pillaging our resources to point of national bankruptcy. We need to treat both if we are too survive. If we treat the symptom (illegals) and not the disease (government) the symptoms will come back and kill us eventually. If we treat the disease and not the symptoms, the symptoms will still kill us.

What national resources do they pillage? I fear we pillage other nations national resources then they do!

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 06:59 PM
"A new study from the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) examines the costs of education, health care and incarceration of illegal aliens, and concludes that the costs to Californians is $10.5 billion per year.

Among the key finding of the report are that the state's already struggling K-12 education system spends approximately $7.7 billion a year to school the children of illegal aliens who now constitute 15 percent of the student body. Another $1.4 billion of the taxpayers' money goes toward providing health care to illegal aliens and their families, the same amount that is spent incarcerating illegal aliens criminals."

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationnaturalizatio/a/caillegals.htm

Labor can not compete with a global market. I'm sure if I had a stack of H-1 visas a computer, and a telephone I could probably find someone from the international job pool to do almost every job cheaper. I would start with the white collar jobs, since it seems they are the ones who do not care when the blue collar ones are outsourced or given away to illegals. I am sure I could find plenty of English speaking doctors from the Philippines and India who would work for about half the salary of US doctors. The massage and sports therapy industry workers here in the US are also overpaid when comparing them to their peers in Asia. Instead of making 50 an hour, I bet I could find someone that could do the same job for around 10 an hour.

Do you have any idea how much the Welfare State spends a year? I'll give you a clue, it's multiple trillions. 100 Billion is a drop in the bucket. Most Welfare comes from CITIZENS. Where is the outrage?!

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 07:00 PM
If you want Austrian economics you need to move to Afghanistan. There, you can do eveything you speak of wanting to do, just like the illegals want from this country, you can be what you want to be in Afghanistan. You can use as a medium of exchange a goat for brain surgery. We don't have an Austrian economic system in this country, so we are addressing our current problems as to how they affect our current economic system. Its called the real world. I like Disneyland, but Disney dollars aren't gonna pay my bills.

You certainly aren't living in the real world if you believe any Government can keep people out if they want to come in. East Germany couldn't stop it, and thats about as much of enforcement of borders as you will ever find. It is not I living in Disneyland, it is you.

Dieseler
12-26-2009, 07:01 PM
bankruptcy of the United States due to Corporate Slavers Profit margins leading to a collapsed welfare State being divided into a Feudal Kingdom led by International bankers... This has NOTHING to do with immigration, it has everything to do with our welfare state, our model of economics we follow, and our blindness to following the constitution!

Right, it has nothing to do with immigration, which when the laws on the books are upheld, controls the flow of new participants on our system, (something that even Mexico itself takes great care in dealing with) but everything to do with illegal immigration and the Welfare State which is being fed by turning a blind eye to Illegal Immigration.

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 07:08 PM
A solid majority support the idea of a nation with a border. However, I'm very uncomfortable with the idea that a 1/3rd would support no borders / globalism. We've got more lefties than the democratic party.

libertarianism is neither left or right, its a whole encompassing philosophy, one that is logically consistent. I'm not the one with inconsistencies.

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 07:10 PM
Right, the disease is government and the traitors that encourage the symptoms. The symptoms are the 3rd world invading our world and pillaging our resources to point of national bankruptcy. We need to treat both if we are too survive. If we treat the symptom (illegals) and not the disease (government) the symptoms will come back and kill us eventually. If we treat the disease and not the symptoms, the symptoms will still kill us.

If we treat the disease, the symptoms will disappear. Good lord, have you ever been sick?

Dunedain
12-26-2009, 07:14 PM
If we treat the disease, the symptoms will disappear. Good lord, have you ever been sick?

Cure the AIDS...and die of the pneumonia it caused (or whatever other complication you'd like).

jbrace
12-26-2009, 07:15 PM
Right, it has nothing to do with immigration, which when the laws on the books are upheld, controls the flow of new participants on our system, (something that even Mexico itself takes great care in dealing with) but everything to do with illegal immigration and the Welfare State which is being fed by turning a blind eye to Illegal Immigration.

The sooner the welfare state collapses, the better. Once again its the system, not the "illegal immigrants". I'm sorry they don't feed your Department of Education, your department of agriculture, but hey at least they help your department of homeland security, by providing job security! The laws in the books are doing such a great job of keeping the illegals out! Maybe we should spend billions of dollars on a wall?! Maybe we should increase the budget to homeland security because government is so competent in fixing our problems.

rpfan2008
12-26-2009, 07:15 PM
If we treat the disease, the symptoms will disappear. Good lord, have you ever been sick?

^ It's very necessary to keep the wound pressed until medics arrive.
Sometimes life and death depends on keep treating the "symptom" till the full remedy is ready

Dieseler
12-26-2009, 07:15 PM
It has everything to do with Austrian Economic Philosophy. Modern day Austrianism is largely Rothbardianism. He built on the proverbial genuises that came before him, and HH Hoppe and Walter Block and building on that foundation.

Let us break this down.

Austrian Econ. shows us how policies always have unintended consequences, generally these arise from "moral hazard". You see, people flooding to latch onto a safety net that provides as good, or better of a living standard than they previously had is a consequence of the policies of Welfarism. Just as Europe is experiencing it themselves, we are too. The problem however, that many identify here is, that its the immigrants problem and if we just deported them it would be all better, or at the very least if we slowed their immigration to a trickle. This couldn't be farther from the truth. For one, immigrants make up a very small portion of Welfarism. It's Welfarism that is the sole contributor of our problems, not the consequences it produces. Do you want to fix the problem or not? Having draconian police state measures is only going to make things worse.

For someone who is into TPBT you are very quick to want to position troops on our "borders" and build walls, and all other sorts of Animal Farm measures. Don't you realize that, a wall keeps things both in, and out? Granted, in realist terms, the Government cannot stop immigration. They will come either way. Look at East Germany for crying out loud. People will try dying to get into the country and those people are some of the most ingenious people there are, and no one can stop them especially not a Government which can't do anything! If East Germany and the Communist Bloc cannot stop people fleeing their border with walls, armed guards, patrols, and a suffocating tyranny and Police State, then nothing will.
Funny, I don't recall having used any of that language as of yet. I only wish for the laws on the books to be enforced.


Secondly, as to our natural rights. I dismiss the notion of a social contract out-right. Only people have rights, and only the individual can exercise those rights. I never gave my consent for this current Government, therefore, I do not acknowledge it as legitimate. The only border there is, is my property border. Within my property I will have who I want, when I want, how I want. Same goes for others. If you don't want "illegal" immigrants on your property, then get out there and stop them.
That is odd. You dismiss the notion of any social contract yet you still want your property rights and fully intend to protect them. What you want is good but fuck everybody else.

As for Corporate slavers.....Do you mean Wal-Mart? Most Corporations, at least, outside construction and menial agriculture work require a modest amount of education. Many immigrants that come here, do not have such requirements. Therefore, if Wal-Mart and Agriculture Corps. can bankrupt this nation, then hell, why are we trying to End the Fed? Let's just End WM and Agri! What's bankrupting this nation is the Welfare/Warfare State.

Agreed.
On the Welfare State part that is.
Lets flood the borders with people who would work for less than minimum wage in hopes that our representatives will see the folly in that and make rectifications to resolve the issue because they aren't so corrupt as to promise more of the same for the vote of those who would happily take the handouts.
:rolleyes:

Now, you ask. How did this come to be? Well, it's built into the very essence of this Government. A piece of paper can never enforce itself, and when the State has a monopoly on force and law, then us lowly people cannot even dare touch it. It's a fruitless exercise. What we are experience is a natural course of events for every State. Until you rectify your absurd nationalism and patriotism with this fact, the world, or at least the US will be going through these cyclical periods forever. I cannot stress enough how antiquated the notion of the State is.
Wait till you get a taste of Global government.

It's like I'm living in the 16th Century telling people about liberalism. You are equivalent to tories who cannot imagine anything other than Monarchy since well, thats just the way things have always been. So, if you want to stop this destruction once and for all, please correctly identify the problems. All these problems stem from gaping holes in both philosophy and policy. Until you learn this, and until many of us learn this, we are doomed forever.
I'm thinking more along the lines of 900 AD.
That's where this is all headed.

Feudalism is dead. It won't come back. At worst we will get a grueling Fascist State. Which is the current path we are on. This just means more war, more tyranny, and more death.

Yeah, we'll get the new improved Fascist Feudalism.
Big Improvement there, I'll pass.

I'll break down philosophy and policy, which go hand-in-hand.

Philosophy: A State is required, or else all civilization collapses. In essence, you are saying that theft, monopoly, and a mafia is a requirement for civilization. I dismiss this on the outset. In our daily interactions, both personal and in the market, we get along just fine without those three requirements that you persist must be met or else chaos will reign. Frankly, history tells us otherwise.
No actually I'm in agreement with you.
We're headed for a Fascist Feudal Corporate run State.


Policy: Now that you have enshrined these virtues, let us see how they turn out. Obviously, people that just want to be left alone or have no desire to rule over others will never seek office. Those who prefer the opposite are exactly the people who seek office. In the end, what you get are people who want subserviance and who enact legislation which they deem to be beneficial because they believe they know better for us. This is the natural occurence of our type of State and for every State. As HHH puts it:


"What is true, just, and beautiful is not determined by popular vote. The masses everywhere are ignorant, short-sighted, motivated by envy, and easy to fool. Democratic politicians must appeal to these masses in order to be elected. Whoever is the best demagogue will win. Almost by necessity, then, democracy will lead to the perversion of truth, justice and beauty" -- Hans-Hermann Hoppe

You see, the problem is not with immigration its with the System itself.

Too deep in the shitter for me now.
I really hate arguing with people who try to over complicate something that is so simple.
I'll do it though.

YumYum
12-26-2009, 07:21 PM
LOL, you can't be a true libertarian and not support Austrian Economics. You neo-conservatives that have transferred to the Libertarian party scare me. Austrian economics isn't about a barter system. You obviously have no idea what your talking about. I suggest spending some time on www.mises.org and enlighten yourself. Your right we don't have Austrian economics, we have a majorly flawed Keynsian economic model. So start by ending the welfare state and fixing our current system instead of shifting the blame! I like the real world too and Austrian Economics advocate for a gold system, and your fiat money system won't pay the bills in the future; gold will.

Right, Pancho. I like a lot of things, including Austrian economics, but it doesn't mean I will ever see them in my life time. I'm not a Libertarian, as you would define Libertarian, nor am I a neo-con. I am a Ron Paul supporter. Austrian economics is about unrestricted trade for the consumer, which can include bartering. You can wish in one hand, and shit in the other. This country will never practice Austrian economics unless you overthrow our government. You have no idea about illegal aliens: I do. I speak Spanish and I have lived with them. They forge false documents, work under false names and have Federal Tax I.D. numbers so they do not have to pay taxes. They think nothing of breaking our laws to get ahead; whether it be selling and transporting drugs, guns and people. Hey! What can I say? Its a free market! The minute they are here they sign up for welfare, and they will get it before a white person can. When they commit a crime, they either change their name or flee to Mexico, never to be punished for their crime. They make great anarchist/capitalist, wouldn't you agree?

Dieseler
12-26-2009, 07:23 PM
30 -10
Its a fucking blowout.

Good post Yum Yum.

Danke
12-26-2009, 07:24 PM
I speak Spanish and I have lived with them. They forge false documents, work under false names and have Federal Tax I.D. numbers so they do not have to pay taxes.

How does that work, specifically?

jbrace
12-26-2009, 07:27 PM
They don't pay taxes? They don't pay taxes every time they make a purchase? They don't have to pay property taxes? I forgot the income tax and every other tax government imposes is such a wonderful idea!

Toureg89
12-26-2009, 07:31 PM
lol, i'm not going to vote in such a badly worded pole.

i would think ALL of us respect our country's right to control its border.

its just some of us would prefer to see our country use its right to legalize all migration, into and out of the country.

jbrace
12-26-2009, 07:31 PM
Right, Pancho. I like a lot of things, including Austrian economics, but it doesn't mean I will ever see them in my life time. I'm not a Libertarian, as you would define Libertarian, nor am I a neo-con. I am a Ron Paul supporter. Austrian economics is about unrestricted trade for the consumer, which can include bartering. You can wish in one hand, and shit in the other. This country will never practice Austrian economics unless you overthrow our government. You have no idea about illegal aliens: I do. I speak Spanish and I have lived with them. They forge false documents, work under false names and have Federal Tax I.D. numbers so they do not have to pay taxes. They think nothing of breaking our laws to get ahead; whether it be selling and transporting drugs, guns and people. Hey! What can I say? Its a free market! The minute they are here they sign up for welfare, and they will get it before a white person can. When they commit a crime, they either change their name or flee to Mexico, never to be punished for their crime. They make great anarchist/capitalist, wouldn't you agree?


So now EVERY hispanic forges documents, breaks laws etc. Let me guess, everyone from the middle-east is a terrorist also? You sure your not a neo conservative? This country will never follow Austrian economics, which is why we will suffer the fate of other great nations that became before us. Why are they able to sell drugs? Because of the U.S. war on drugs (which we are winnning, along with our war in iraq!!) hahaha End the war on drug ( which our current system supports) and you end the black market for drugs. Once again, it's the system, which I thought we were all fighting to overthrow, but maybe there are more neo- conservatives among us than I thought.

A bartering system is completely fine and people use it to some extent today. The problem though is our fiat money system (which is what this current system follows). Austrian often argue for a money system based on gold or some other form of commodity. ( Ron Paul supports this too, just incase your that ignorant and don't know this). You guys seem to be fighting for the prolongation of this corrupt system.

On another note they will face the same consequences if they break the laws here as any other citizen. Also, often people enter into shady endeavors to provide for there family's. Which is often because they cannot find a sufficient job to support there family, or don't have the resources available to better themselves. Which is often a cause of inefficiency in the economy causes by government intervention. Once again, it's the system.

Dieseler
12-26-2009, 07:32 PM
How does that work, specifically?

You just apply for it under the name of your sole proprietorship then you can make wholesale purchases on just about anything business related sales tax free.
I'm not sure how you could rotate it in order to avoid government detection but I doubt any wholesaler would receive notification from the government NOT to sell to you due to doing something wrong like not paying taxes.
Some wholesalers don't even request a tax number, just a business license.

31 - 10
Forgot to add the extra point.

stu2002
12-26-2009, 07:34 PM
What the hell is up with you libertarian types? You don't wanna control the border since Big Govt does that? Wake up--elimination of borders is what World Govt people want. You talk about Liberty--when we have no borders/no nations, then you will have no liberty and no decent paying jobs.

End of the Welfare state will NEVER happen.

Libertarians are a joke and will never be more than 3% of the electorate.

My man Ron Paul was not dumb enough to run as a Libertarian after 1988

rpfan2008
12-26-2009, 07:35 PM
lol, i'm not going to vote in such a badly worded pole.

i would think ALL of us respect our country's right to control its border.

its just some of us would prefer to see our country use its right to legalize all migration, into and out of the country.

Can't you see those 10 votes for Do you support unlimited illegal immigration or a nation's right to their border


Check out the LaRaza thread to understand how they are trying to use their own interpretation of Austrian Economics to support unlimited illegal immigration, and how RP's Campaign for Liberty is to open up all borders of the world for a global free market.

YumYum
12-26-2009, 07:39 PM
You certainly aren't living in the real world if you believe any Government can keep people out if they want to come in. East Germany couldn't stop it, and thats about as much of enforcement of borders as you will ever find. It is not I living in Disneyland, it is you.

So tell me, where is this non-statist Utopia that keep harping about? Some island in the Pacific? I would really like to know where it is that civilized people practice pure Austrian economics and there also no government? You are in fantasy land, like "Fantasy Island." Hey, have you ever heard of Shangri-La? Why don't you put together a proposal for an Austrian Economic Plan for the FEMA camps? Now, that is a reality with lots of potential.

Dieseler
12-26-2009, 07:39 PM
32 - 10
Damn!
They went for two with the lead.

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 07:43 PM
So tell me, where is this non-statist Utopia that keep harping about? Some island in the Pacific? I would really like to know where it is that civilized people practice pure Austrian economics and there also no government? You are in fantasy land, like "Fantasy Island." Hey, have you ever heard of Shangri-La? Why don't you put together a proposal for an Austrian Economic Plan for the FEMA camps? Now, that is a reality with lots of potential.

You sound like the tories of the 17th Century. Where is this liberal paradise that you keep harping on about? Some Island in the Pacific? I would really like to know where it is that civilized people practice liberal policies and there also no Monarchy? You are in a fantasy land, like "Fantasy Island." Hey, have you ever heard of Shangri-La? Why don't you put together a proposal for a Liberal Economic Plan for the Gallows? Now, that is a reality with lots of potential.

Toureg89
12-26-2009, 07:46 PM
Can't you see those 10 votes for Do you support unlimited illegal immigration or a nation's right to their border


Check out the LaRaza thread to understand how they are trying to use their own interpretation of Austrian Economics to support unlimited illegal immigration, and how RP's Campaign for Liberty is to open up all borders of the world for a global free market.

like i said before, i don't support illegal migration into our country.

but i also think it should be a LOT EASIER to gain LEGAL ACCESS into this country.

between the right to keep a closed border and the right to keep an open border, even to people, i prefer the latter.

between the right to control one's border's and the lack of the right to control one's borders, i choose the former.

maybe there are costs to illegal migration into this country, but i don't recognize any draw backs to LEGAL migrant workers.

jbrace
12-26-2009, 07:49 PM
32 - 10
Damn!
They went for two with the lead.

I'd put my self in the lead of my own scoreboard too.



Libertarian's: 3453490594359034 Neo-Cons: 0

Dieseler
12-26-2009, 07:51 PM
You sound like the tories of the 17th Century. Where is this liberal paradise that you keep harping on about? Some Island in the Pacific? I would really like to know where it is that civilized people practice liberal policies and there also no Monarchy?
California?

You are in a fantasy land, like "Fantasy Island." Hey, have you ever heard of Shangri-La? Why don't you put together a proposal for a Liberal Economic Plan for the Gallows? Now, that is a reality with lots of potential.
Sounds more like what you are advocating.
I'd rather just keep our Republic and handle the situation via the Laws that are already on the books.

By the way, that's not fair.
He gets a lone paragraph while I had to deal with an entire wall of text.

Dieseler
12-26-2009, 07:52 PM
I'd put my self in the lead too of my own scoreboard.

idiot, hahahaha

Are you breaking forum guidelines by calling me an idiot?
:rolleyes:
I see you edited that out.


Libertarian's: 3453490594359034 Neo-Cons: 0
Ad Hom, and there aren't that many libertarians in the Universe much less on Ron paul Forums.
Forum Rule.
Always call your adversary a Neocon when debating on Ron Paul Forums.

YumYum
12-26-2009, 07:55 PM
How does that work, specifically?

Unless it has changed, anybody can apply for a federal fax I.D. number. Usually, you have to post a classified ad with the fictitious name you plan to use, and send a copy of it with your application. My mom got an I.D. # for her business and didn’t have to send anything but the form she filled out. The government doesn’t check out the information to make sure it is correct, and illegal’s use the I.D. number to obtain employment and then work under a 1099, where the taxes aren’t taken out. They also establish credit with their federal tax I.D. #, and if they ruin their credit, they go get a new federal tax I.D. number and start all over. Who needs bankruptcy?

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 07:57 PM
California?

Sounds more like what you are advocating.
I'd rather just keep our Republic and handle the situation via the Laws that are already on the books.

By the way, that's not fair.
He gets a lone paragraph while I had to deal with an entire wall of text.

Do you know what a Liberal of the 17th Century was? I'll give you a little hint: John Locke.

Heretofore they are now commonly known as Classical Liberals, but they are, and the term still is, LIBERAL. It doesn't matter what it was hi-jacked into meaning. They purposefully did this. A Progressive used to be the likes of Thomas Jefferson and George Mason, Jean-Baptiste Say, and Anne-Robert-Jacques Turgot. A Conservative was a Torie. Conservatives in the 17th Century were your Monarchical sympathizers and promoters. They were generally still roughly 30% of the America's at the time of our Revolution. You fall into that 30%.

I grow weery of people not educated in History. What I promote is the extension of Classical Liberalism, it's logical conclusion. The progress of fixing the errors and pursuing the correct course. I'm done talking to protectionists.

If you believe you can have a limited-Government yet, continue to have these ridiculous Welfare permittances, while at the same time trying to institute policies to stop people from coming in, you are delusionial. What you advocate is for a marked increase in the ramp up of the Police State.

bobbyw24
12-26-2009, 07:57 PM
and Bankruptcy, check out this case

http://www.cob.uscourts.gov/opinions%5C06-01202_Amendment_to_Memorandum_Opinion_081209.pdf

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 08:00 PM
Are you breaking forum guidelines by calling me an idiot?
:rolleyes:
I see you edited that out.


Ad Hom, and there aren't that many libertarians in the Universe much less on Ron paul Forums.
Forum Rule.
Always call your adversary a Neocon when debating on Ron Paul Forums.

LvMI gets 1,000,000+ hits a month and is mostly staunch libertarians. Name me one intellectual, philosophical, paleocon site that actually is of any value that even gets 15,000 hits a month. If you are going to half-ass it, then don't even bother.

rpfan2008
12-26-2009, 08:00 PM
between the right to keep a closed border and the right to keep an open border, even to people, i prefer the latter.

A border could be open, closed or sealed.

And you think you support not a controlled one, but an open border?
But at the same time you don't like illegal immigration. :confused:

OK...now I get it..

maybe you support opening it for migratory birds or something but this discussion isn't about those.

rpfan2008
12-26-2009, 08:03 PM
LvMI gets 1,000,000+ hits a month and is mostly staunch libertarians. Name me one intellectual, philosophical, paleocon site that actually is of any value that even gets 15,000 hits a month. If you are going to half-ass it, then don't even bother.

LVMI gets 1M hits/month and how that statistics increases your credibility? :confused:

Mr Von Mises, is that you?

Toureg89
12-26-2009, 08:03 PM
A border could be open, closed or sealed.

And you think you support not a controlled one, but an open border?
But at the same time you don't like illegal immigration. :confused:

by open, i mean controlled, but automatically open to any individual who has yet to commit a crime in this country before.

jbrace
12-26-2009, 08:08 PM
Do you know what a Liberal of the 17th Century was? I'll give you a little hint: John Locke.

Heretofore they are now commonly known as Classical Liberals, but they are, and the term still is, LIBERAL. It doesn't matter what it was hi-jacked into meaning. They purposefully did this. A Progressive used to be the likes of Thomas Jefferson and George Mason, Jean-Baptiste Say, and Anne-Robert-Jacques Turgot. A Conservative was a Torie. Conservatives in the 17th Century were your Monarchical sympathizers and promoters. They were generally still roughly 30% of the America's at the time of our Revolution. You fall into that 30%.

I grow weery of people not educated in History. What I promote is the extension of Classical Liberalism, it's logical conclusion. The progress of fixing the errors and pursuing the correct course. I'm done talking to protectionists.

If you believe you can have a limited-Government yet, continue to have these ridiculous Welfare permittances, while at the same time trying to institute policies to stop people from coming in, you are delusionial. What you advocate is for a marked increase in the ramp up of the Police State.

Libertarians: 33 Idiots: 32

Is that better? Hopefully I'm not breaking forum guidelines now.

LibertyEagle
12-26-2009, 08:09 PM
It has everything to do with Austrian Economic Philosophy. Modern day Austrianism is largely Rothbardianism. He built on the proverbial genuises that came before him, and HH Hoppe and Walter Block and building on that foundation.

Oh, don't start. Austrian economics was brought to this country by Ludwig Von Mises; not Rothbard. Rothbard was an anarchist and when he started philosophizing, everything he espoused was in support of said anarchy. As you well know, Mises was not an anarchist.

Also, as you well know, Ron Paul does not support open borders.

YumYum
12-26-2009, 08:12 PM
and Bankruptcy, check out this case

http://www.cob.uscourts.gov/opinions%5C06-01202_Amendment_to_Memorandum_Opinion_081209.pdf

That is hilarious!! Filing for bankruptcy with someone else's S.S.# If I ever were to become an anarchist/capitalist I would be pushing for more illegal aliens to come into this country. They know how to beat the system.

rpfan2008
12-26-2009, 08:13 PM
by open, i mean controlled, but automatically open to any individual who has yet to commit a crime in this country before.

fine, who cares if that trespasser is running from the Mexican law. What you want is a gatekeepers there who'd give a welcome smile and open the gates for anyone walking towards them.

jbrace
12-26-2009, 08:14 PM
Oh, don't start. Austrian economics was brought to this country by Ludwig Von Mises; not Rothbard. Rothbard was an anarchist and when he started philosophizing, everything he espoused was in support of said anarchy. As you well know, Mises was not an anarchist.

Also, as you well know, Ron Paul does not support open borders.


Ron Paul does not support open borders, but he does not necessarily promote a strict restriction on boarders either.

"I think it depends on our economy. If we have a healthy economy, I think we could be very generous on work programs. People come in, fulfill their role and go back home.

I’m not worried about legal immigration. I think we would even have more if we had a healthy economy." - Paul

Has your thinking on immigration changed over the years?

"I try to understand it better. I think it is a difficult issue. There’s probably only one Republican running for the presidency right now who says “No more immigrants!” I don’t think America is like that at all. I don’t agree with that. But I don’t believe in illegal immigration. So in many ways, I’m pretty moderate and mainstream. I’m not radical either way. I don’t want to put tanks and shoot illegal immigrants as they come over, that’s one extreme. The other is totally open borders—just let them flow in. ''- Paul

I'm not saying I advocate open borders, but with a change in economics policies it wouldn't be a problem, nor, up for such heated debate.

Dieseler
12-26-2009, 08:15 PM
LvMI gets 1,000,000+ hits a month and is mostly staunch libertarians. Name me one intellectual, philosophical, paleocon site that actually is of any value that even gets 15,000 hits a month. If you are going to half-ass it, then don't even bother.

I don't keep up with shit like that man.
A million a month doesn't even compare to this wild ass assertion,


Libertarian's: 3453490594359034
and a million of which you might be responsible for over a thousand clicks of a month yourself anyway.
I have no beef with that Organization whatsoever by the way before you begin to build that straw man.
Thanks.

LibertyEagle
12-26-2009, 08:17 PM
Do you know what a Liberal of the 17th Century was? I'll give you a little hint: John Locke.

Heretofore they are now commonly known as Classical Liberals, but they are, and the term still is, LIBERAL. It doesn't matter what it was hi-jacked into meaning. They purposefully did this. A Progressive used to be the likes of Thomas Jefferson and George Mason, Jean-Baptiste Say, and Anne-Robert-Jacques Turgot. A Conservative was a Torie. Conservatives in the 17th Century were your Monarchical sympathizers and promoters. They were generally still roughly 30% of the America's at the time of our Revolution. You fall into that 30%.

Again, you are trying to redefine terms. Classical liberals were almost the exact opposite of what "liberals" are today. Nor, can you claim classical liberals as being in your corner on this issue.


I grow weery of people not educated in History.
Yes, me too. :rolleyes:


What I promote is the extension of Classical Liberalism, it's logical conclusion. The progress of fixing the errors and pursuing the correct course.
You're not promoting Classical Liberalism; you are promoting ANARCHY. They are NOT the same thing. Stop acting like they are.


I'm done talking to protectionists.

Protectionists? People who believe that a nation without borders is no nation at all? You know, people like Ron Paul?

Oh, I forgot, you probably don't believe in nations at all, do you?


If you believe you can have a limited-Government yet, continue to have these ridiculous Welfare permittances, while at the same time trying to institute policies to stop people from coming in, you are delusionial. What you advocate is for a marked increase in the ramp up of the Police State.
Maybe Lew (from the excerpts you posted) is unable to do 2 things at one time, but not all of us are the same. Just because we are sick and tired of the illegal alien invasion of our country, does not mean that we also not sick and tired of welfarism.

/end rant

Now, I feel better now. :)

Dieseler
12-26-2009, 08:19 PM
Ron Paul does not support open borders, but he does not necessarily promote a strict restriction on boarders either.
I think he said the laws on the books would work fine. Not those exact words mind you but somewhere along the lines of that.


"I think it depends on our economy. If we have a healthy economy, I think we could be very generous on work programs. People come in, fulfill their role and go back home.
Wow, that's a huge difference in your previous stance.
I hope we get a healthy economy soon.


I’m not worried about legal immigration. I think we would even have more if we had a healthy economy."
Me either.
You're really coming around.

I'm not saying I advocate open borders, but with a change in economics policies it wouldn't be a problem, nor, up for such heated debate.

heavenlyboy34
12-26-2009, 08:23 PM
What the hell is up with you libertarian types? You don't wanna control the border since Big Govt does that? Wake up--elimination of borders is what World Govt people want. You talk about Liberty--when we have no borders/no nations, then you will have no liberty and no decent paying jobs.

End of the Welfare state will NEVER happen.

Libertarians are a joke and will never be more than 3% of the electorate.

My man Ron Paul was not dumb enough to run as a Libertarian after 1988


I don't know what all libertarians think, but I think the business of protecting the border should be left to the owners of the land at the border. I think you've confused the libertarian stance with the left-liberal stance.

Libertarians are hardly a joke, sir. (unless you mean the LP, which I agree is a joke). I wonder at your obsession with democracy (see the bolded statement). It's as if winning an election makes a person factually correct or moral. How sad. :(

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 08:24 PM
Oh, don't start. Austrian economics was brought to this country by Ludwig Von Mises; not Rothbard. Rothbard was an anarchist and when he started philosophizing, everything he espoused was in support of said anarchy. As you well know, Mises was not an anarchist.

Also, as you well know, Ron Paul does not support open borders.

Why are we even here. Why do we even discuss. We might as all well be clones of Ron Paul. The man never gets anything wrong. I guess you didn't read what I wrote either, when I said, Modern day Austrianism.....Rothbard fixed the inconsistency and wrong assessments, and theories of Mises, just like Mises fixed Bohm-Bewark and expanded those ideas. If we are going to think like this, we might as well dismiss everything that came after Menger.

Secondly, everything he diagnosed led him to believe that the State is incompatible with liberty, for in its very existence it destroys liberty. The free-market is anarchy. Do you support the Free-Market? He simply showed how the State destroys liberty and fixed the errors of Classical Liberalism. Are you going to critique why he is wrong, or are you going to mischaracterize?

As Lew says: "Economics tells the State, we don't need you." And that is 100% true. When America was first borne, and throughout the 19th Century we were largely unencumbered economically. There was State intervention, but it was compared to today, minimal. Likewise, throughout the 19th Century, standards of living rose the most in history, prices dropped in all products, quality rose, and yet, we didn't have any immigration control, and if we did it was of the order of; Do you have any diseases? Yes/No. No? You're in.

Out west we had no State intervention. We had land associations/clubs spring up that were purely market force driven. They had their own Constitutions, their own laws, their own protective services, own courts, own settlement disputes, etc. This was Anarchy. It worked wonderfully. In the largest towns, the amount of homicides were in the single digits annually. Property rights were strictly enforced, and things went very smooth.

Also, as you well know, I think for myself and from what I can see, the espousal of border militarization, wall/fence building, and a strict beat-down of businesses and citizens alike (Real ID, National ID, SS ID, etc.), together with Police State non-sense like Arpaio all point to a society I want nothing to do with. I have seen what this leads to, and Eastern Germany was not pleasant. Point your anger towards the Welfare State, not the immigrants. You're anger is definitely mis-placed, and so is Ron Paul's if he advocates for those things.

As someone else said, the Welfare State will always exist. So, then, why would these people suddenly stop coming in? Do you see people stop coming in from Cuba or Haiti just because the USCG is out there? Hell no. They try even harder, they become even more devious, and more ingenious. They still get through, in large numbers. You cannot stop people if you give them the incentive to come. You can have East Germany policing of the border and it still won't stop them. I can't believe people who so adamantly believe in limited/small Government completely throw that out the window because of their hatred of immigrants, not seeing that the portion of the Welfare State they take up is severely limited.

I say again, why are you not this angry at citizens of this country who pillage, rob, and steal from you just like an "illegal" immigrant, yet, the citizens make up the vast majority of those stealing from you? It makes literally no sense to me. Stop being hypocritical.

I suppose if you are a citizen you can legally steal.......

rpfan2008
12-26-2009, 08:25 PM
Ron Paul does not support open borders, but he does not necessarily promote a strict restriction on boarders either.

"I think it depends on our economy. If we have a healthy economy, I think we could be very generous on work programs. People come in, fulfill their role and go back home.

I’m not worried about legal immigration. I think we would even have more if we had a healthy economy."

I'm not saying I advocate open borders, but with a change in economics policies it wouldn't be a problem, nor, up for such heated debate.

By this Ron Paul is not making an Austrian Economics argument dude, this is charity. He supports giving the excess to the needy.

What you guys want is not charity but a claim/demand of equal opportunities and rights as a citizen of a country, even though you are foreigners. And the strongest (although very very weak in itself) argument from your side was that you are "individuals" so are the legal citizens of that country. You tried to marginalize their legal rights & even went to outright abolish them on some instances.

silverhandorder
12-26-2009, 08:27 PM
Might makes right. A nation has "right" to it's borders as long as it can enforce it. If it can't do jack shit about illegals trying to get in then it is the nation's fault.

In context of USA I would say as long as there are handouts we should limit them to citizens and promote only productive immigrants to citizenship. It goes completely against freedom ideology but it has to be done if you are living with an entitlement society.

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 08:29 PM
That is hilarious!! Filing for bankruptcy with someone else's S.S.# If I ever were to become an anarchist/capitalist I would be pushing for more illegal aliens to come into this country. They know how to beat the system.

Who here advocates Fraud. Can you document it, and then prove it, or are you just being a sycophant? I presume its the latter, as I've seen not a bit of the former.

Dieseler
12-26-2009, 08:31 PM
Who here advocates Fraud. Can you document it, and then prove it, or are you just being a sycophant? I presume its the latter, as I've seen not a bit of the former.

How is an Illegal Immigrant going to obtain a job in the U.S. without a use of fraudulent means?
Why the name calling?

LibertyEagle
12-26-2009, 08:37 PM
Ron Paul does not support open borders, but he does not necessarily promote a strict restriction on boarders either.
I assume you meant, "borders".

He voted for building a fence, dude.


"I think it depends on our economy. If we have a healthy economy, I think we could be very generous on work programs. People come in, fulfill their role and go back home.

I’m not worried about legal immigration. I think we would even have more if we had a healthy economy." - Paul

Has your thinking on immigration changed over the years?

"I try to understand it better. I think it is a difficult issue. There’s probably only one Republican running for the presidency right now who says “No more immigrants!” I don’t think America is like that at all. I don’t agree with that. But I don’t believe in illegal immigration. So in many ways, I’m pretty moderate and mainstream. I’m not radical either way. I don’t want to put tanks and shoot illegal immigrants as they come over, that’s one extreme. The other is totally open borders—just let them flow in. ''- Paul
I have no problem with any of that, either. But, that is very different than what is going on right now.


I'm not saying I advocate open borders, but with a change in economics policies it wouldn't be a problem, nor, up for such heated debate.

NAFTA seems to be what really increased illegal immigration. That, and the Mexican government having the audacity to teach people that the U.S. southwest belongs to a fictitious land called Aztlan and also, actually printing up materials for them so they know how to get all the welfare bennies once they cross our border illegally.

I'm not against foreigners getting work visas to come work in our country, or to immigrate legally. That is all good and it benefits our country. I also well know that our immigration process needs a lot of work. It's ridiculous that it takes so long for someone to become a citizen, once they have been approved.

I'm also empathetic to what Torch brought up earlier about the plight of small farmers. The reality is that the government has so screwed the small farmer, that soon, the only farmer we will have left is the big corporate farms. So, I think he and other small to medium sized farms are just trying to survive in the current legislative environment. The bottom line is that our government has so made a complete travesty of everything our country was founded to be, that it is going to be very difficult to dig out of this. But, I honestly do not see how going along with 1/2 of Mexico's citizens illegally invading our country, is going to help us in our effort to regain our republic. I truly do not.

Toureg89
12-26-2009, 08:38 PM
fine, who cares if that trespasser is running from the Mexican law. What you want is a gatekeepers there who'd give a welcome smile and open the gates for anyone walking towards them.

1. yes and 2. no.

yes, i dont give a rats ass about other country's laws. why should i?

having broken a law, or an extensive rap sheet of having broken laws, is no accurate measure of one's morality, because of the very fact that the majority of the world doesnt recognized some/all of the natural rights the average american recognizes.

2. no, i dont want a person who will smile as he allows anyone and everyone to pass through.

if a person of foreign decent has an american criminal record, i see no reason to grant him entrance to america a second time.

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 08:40 PM
How is an Illegal Immigrant going to obtain a job in the U.S. without a use of fraudulent means?
Why the name calling?

I merely respond in kind. The Black-Market itself isn't inherently fraudulent. I know many Agorists. Likewise, the White Market isn't inherently fraudulent either. It is the actions of the individual that determines fraud, not what market they persue their line of work in.

Perhaps you should take up Harry Browne and try to live your life as a free man. I try to as much as I can, and I'm what you deem a criminal. So be it. Not to divulge anything pertinent, but what Agorists do is no different than what immigrants do who bypass the IRS, Regulation, Taxes, etc. It is what all of us should be doing.

Stop abiding by immoral laws.

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 08:41 PM
I assume you meant, "borders".

He voted for building a fence, dude.


I have no problem with any of that, either. But, that is very different than what is going on right now.



NAFTA seems to be what really increased illegal immigration. That, and the Mexican government having the audacity to teach people that the U.S. southwest belongs to a fictitious land called Aztlan and also, actually printing up materials for them so they know how to get all the welfare bennies once they cross our border illegally.

I'm not against foreigners getting work visas to come work in our country, or to immigrate legally. That is all good and it benefits our country. I also well know that our immigration process needs a lot of work. It's ridiculous that it takes so long for someone to become a citizen, once they have been approved.

I'm also empathetic to what Torch brought up earlier about the plight of small farmers. The reality is that the government has so screwed the small farmer, that soon, the only farmer we will have left is the big corporate farms. So, I think he and other small to medium sized farms are just trying to survive in the current legislative environment. The bottom line is that our government has so made a complete travesty of everything our country was founded to be, that it is going to be very difficult to dig out of this. But, I honestly do not see how going along with 1/2 of Mexico's citizens illegally invading our country, is going to help us in our effort to regain our republic. I truly do not.

Did they consult with Matthew Lesko?

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erowe1
12-26-2009, 08:43 PM
Before anyone can answer this poll, we need definitions. What is meant by the word "nation"? It doesn't sound to me like a word that can refer to something that has rights.

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 08:45 PM
I assume you meant, "borders".

He voted for building a fence, dude.


I have no problem with any of that, either. But, that is very different than what is going on right now.



NAFTA seems to be what really increased illegal immigration. That, and the Mexican government having the audacity to teach people that the U.S. southwest belongs to a fictitious land called Aztlan and also, actually printing up materials for them so they know how to get all the welfare bennies once they cross our border illegally.

I'm not against foreigners getting work visas to come work in our country, or to immigrate legally. That is all good and it benefits our country. I also well know that our immigration process needs a lot of work. It's ridiculous that it takes so long for someone to become a citizen, once they have been approved.

I'm also empathetic to what Torch brought up earlier about the plight of small farmers. The reality is that the government has so screwed the small farmer, that soon, the only farmer we will have left is the big corporate farms. So, I think he and other small to medium sized farms are just trying to survive in the current legislative environment. The bottom line is that our government has so made a complete travesty of everything our country was founded to be, that it is going to be very difficult to dig out of this. But, I honestly do not see how going along with 1/2 of Mexico's citizens illegally invading our country, is going to help us in our effort to regain our republic. I truly do not.

They are going to come irregardless of how many troops are on the border. How many fences you build, or how much legislative legalese you throw onto businesses about the Fed Gov. or state Governments broaching personal information, or requiring draconian ID's. If you don't stop the incentive, they will always come. How hard is that to comprehend?

If the Government cannot even run USPS how do you think they are going to secure thousands of miles of borders?

When those measures don't work, you will be out there calling for even stricter measures. Eventually we'll live in a de-facto Police State, and things still won't be any better because you have yet to do anything about the cause.

rpfan2008
12-26-2009, 08:45 PM
How is an Illegal Immigrant going to obtain a job in the U.S. without a use of fraudulent means?
Why the name calling?

You won't understand that but it has been well proven by a mixture of formulas from Rothbard, Bohm-Bewark, Mises and Menger that when there was a constitutional anarchy in 19th century it worked all well and there was tremendous progress...so you need not worry. Focus on your local clubs, societies etc and forget about your national boundaries because illegal aliens can't be tracked without RealIDs, NID, SSs etc. So let's concentrate our fight against the Welfare system and unite the illegals and blacks as well as unemployed whites currently in welfare against ....hey !!! wtf


/sarcasm

Dieseler
12-26-2009, 08:45 PM
I merely respond in kind. The Black-Market itself isn't inherently fraudulent. I know many Agorists. Likewise, the White Market isn't inherently fraudulent either. It is the actions of the individual that determines fraud, not what market they persue their line of work in.

Perhaps you should take up Harry Browne and try to live your life as a free man. I try to as much as I can, and I'm what you deem a criminal. So be it. Not to divulge anything pertinent, but what Agorists do is no different than what immigrants do who bypass the IRS, Regulation, Taxes, etc. It is what all of us should be doing.

Stop abiding by immoral laws.

You sure do flail around and make a lot of inane suggestions while stating the obvious when your losing a debate.

Dieseler
12-26-2009, 08:47 PM
You won't understand that but it has been well proven by a mixture of formulas from Rothbard, Bohm-Bewark, Mises and Menger that when there was a constitutional anarchy in 19th century it worked all well and there was tremendous progress...so you need not worry. Focus on your local clubs, societies etc and forget about your national boundaries because illegal aliens can't be tracked without RealIDs, NID, SSs etc. So let's concentrate our fight against the Welfare system and unite the illegals and blacks as well as unemployed whites currently in welfare against ....hey !!! wtf


/sarcasm

You had me going man..
lolz.
:eek:

misterx
12-26-2009, 08:48 PM
re: your sig line. Diversity of culture is not a bad thing.. diversity of ideology is.

No, I think a strict border policy is crucial to the integrity of our nation.

I agree that diversity of culture is a good thing, but the meaning of that has become distorted over the last century. You can't have diversity of culture in a single country. All cultures will blend together until you have only one culture. True diversity requires multiple countries with strict borders in which each populace has unique experiences.

Multiculturalism is the antithesis of diversity. I see multiculturalists as being like the Borg in Star Trek. They seek to integrate other cultures into their own, using their distinctiveness to improve upon their own culture, but they are just empty shells destroying the uniqueness of every culture they come in contact with. If the globalists have their way the planet will one day become one big collective of Borg like drones. All brown, all void of spiritual beliefs, all speaking the same language, all with the same clothes, music, literature, etc.

I think it's wonderful that we live in a world where an American can hop on a plane to India and experience a different way of thinking, seeing the world from a different perspective, something that gives insights into ones own culture that could never be obtained otherwise. Multiculturalism and globalism are going to eliminate these different perspectives. That is not diversity, it is monoculture.

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 08:49 PM
You sure do flail around and make a lot of inane suggestions while stating the obvious when your losing a debate.

I'm not losing anything. Do you realize that you don't have to abide by the ridiculous immoral rules and laws setup by the Government to get a job? Are you that afraid of what will happen if you break one of these tyrannous laws? Must be, you are quite jealous of those that do and want them deported. Do you want myself and other Agorists deported also because we don't follow the rules set forth by our beloved tyranny?

Carson
12-26-2009, 08:51 PM
Originally Posted by RevolutionSD View Post
rigged poll.
I support the free market in labor.
I do not believe in fictitional borders or bureaucrats that can perform anything or centralized planning, all of which are required to have "border enforcement".



Then you do not respect the United State's border and therefore are a domestic enemy of the United States.



Then you do not support freedom and are an enemy of liberty.

The only freedom and liberty you are supporting, RevolutionSD, with this statement is YOURS.

You leave no one else the freedom or liberty to define their own freedom or liberty.

Dieseler
12-26-2009, 08:55 PM
I'm not losing anything. Do you realize that you don't have to abide by the ridiculous immoral rules and laws setup by the Government to get a job?
You're right. I can go to prison and watch my family fall into the grip of the Welfare System.
I'll pass.

Are you that afraid of what will happen if you break one of these tyrannous laws?
Are you familiar with the plight of Ed and Elaine Brown? Don't even try to use that to make a point either...

Must be, you are quite jealous of those that do and want them deported. Do you want myself and other Agorists deported also because we don't follow the rules set forth by our beloved tyranny?
I must admit that I'm not up on this agorism stuff but I will say this, if that is what you are, I WANT NO PART OF IT!
I just want my elected officials to deal with the Illegal Immigration problem with the laws that are on the books.
I want Immigrants to first show the same respect that American Citizens show by following the law on their way to becoming an American Citizen.
Stop recruiting and go climb a bell tower if you must, I ain't buying it.

LibertyEagle
12-26-2009, 08:57 PM
Why are we even here. Why do we even discuss. We might as all well be clones of Ron Paul. The man never gets anything wrong. I guess you didn't read what I wrote either, when I said, Modern day Austrianism
No, you are describing ROTHBARDIANISM; not Austrian Economics.


.....Rothbard fixed the inconsistency and wrong assessments, and theories of Mises,
Yeah, right. :rolleyes: Like I said, Rothbardianism.


just like Mises fixed Bohm-Bewark and expanded those ideas. If we are going to think like this, we might as well dismiss everything that came after Menger.

Secondly, everything he diagnosed led him to believe that the State is incompatible with liberty, for in its very existence it destroys liberty. The free-market is anarchy. Do you support the Free-Market? He simply showed how the State destroys liberty and fixed the errors of Classical Liberalism. Are you going to critique why he is wrong, or are you going to mischaracterize?

I own about 4 of Rothbard's books. One of those being a multi-volume set about American history. And after listening to some who apparently hate this country and everything it has ever stood for, quote Rothbard up one side and down the other, I seriously am considering ripping the pages out of the books and running them through my shredder. Just FYI.


As Lew says: "Economics tells the State, we don't need you." And that is 100% true. When America was first borne, and throughout the 19th Century we were largely unencumbered economically. There was State intervention, but it was compared to today, minimal. Likewise, throughout the 19th Century, standards of living rose the most in history, prices dropped in all products, quality rose, and yet, we didn't have any immigration control, and if we did it was of the order of; Do you have any diseases? Yes/No. No? You're in.
Yes, but unfortunately the situation is very different now. And actually, people who wanted to immigrate here ALSO had to show that they would not be a financial burden, or have someone sponsor them. They ALSO were taught American founding history and principles. But, heck, we don't even teach those things to our own kids these days.


Out west we had no State intervention. We had land associations/clubs spring up that were purely market force driven. They had their own Constitutions, their own laws, their own protective services, own courts, own settlement disputes, etc. This was Anarchy. It worked wonderfully. In the largest towns, the amount of homicides were in the single digits annually. Property rights were strictly enforced, and things went very smooth.
Bullshit. They had Sheriffs and the sheriffs formed posses, as needed.


Also, as you well know, I think for myself and from what I can see, the espousal of border militarization, wall/fence building, and a strict beat-down of businesses and citizens alike (Real ID, National ID, SS ID, etc.), together with Police State non-sense like Arpaio all point to a society I want nothing to do with. I have seen what this leads to, and Eastern Germany was not pleasant. Point your anger towards the Welfare State, not the immigrants. You're anger is definitely mis-placed, and so is Ron Paul's if he advocates for those things.
No one here wants REAL ID, a National ID, SS ID, etc. :rolleyes: Nor, is anyone longing for some big wall. What most want is for our government to stop encouraging illegals to invade our country by offering them free handouts of our own money. They've overrun our schools and our hospitals. This simply has to stop.


As someone else said, the Welfare State will always exist. So, then, why would these people suddenly stop coming in? Do you see people stop coming in from Cuba or Haiti just because the USCG is out there? Hell no. They try even harder, they become even more devious, and more ingenious. They still get through, in large numbers. You cannot stop people if you give them the incentive to come. You can have East Germany policing of the border and it still won't stop them.

We all want the welfare state to stop.


I can't believe people who so adamantly believe in limited/small Government completely throw that out the window because of their hatred of immigrants, not seeing that the portion of the Welfare State they take up is severely limited.
You sound like Keith Olbermann. Seriously. Equating the ILLEGAL ALIEN INVASION of our country with legal immigration. They are two very different things.

And as far as welfare goes, I want it ALL to end. But, while I hate paying it for my own countrymen, I DAMN SURE DETEST IT for ILLEGAL ALIENS.


I say again, why are you not this angry at citizens of this country who pillage, rob, and steal from you just like an "illegal" immigrant, yet, the citizens make up the vast majority of those stealing from you? It makes literally no sense to me. Stop being hypocritical.

I suppose if you are a citizen you can legally steal.......

I don't want to be stolen from, by ANYONE.

Tell me, are you so pro-illegal immigration, because you think it will hasten the destruction of the country you despise so much?

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 08:57 PM
You're right. I can go to prison and watch my family fall into the grip of the Welfare System.
I'll pass.

Are you familiar with the plight of Ed and Elaine Brown? Don't even try to use that to make a point either...

I must admit that I'm not up on this agorism stuff but I will say this, if that is what you are, I WANT NO PART OF IT!
I just want my elected officials to deal with the Illegal Immigration problem with the laws that are on the books.
I want Immigrants to first show the same respect that American Citizens show by following the law on their way to becoming an American Citizen.
Stop recruiting and go climb a bell tower if you must, I ain't buying it.

You will reap what you sow.

UnReconstructed
12-26-2009, 08:59 PM
nations do not have rights. people have rights. nations do not have borders, borders is a bookstore.

Dieseler
12-26-2009, 09:00 PM
You will reap what you sow.

No shit.


nations do not have rights. people have rights. nations do not have borders, borders is a bookstore.

You need to go look at a map.

LibertyEagle
12-26-2009, 09:02 PM
nations do not have rights. people have rights. nations do not have borders, borders is a bookstore.

Nations damn sure do have borders.

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 09:02 PM
No, you are describing ROTHBARDIANISM; not Austrian Economics.


Yeah, right. :rolleyes: Like I said, Rothbardianism.


I own about 4 of Rothbard's books. One of those being a multi-volume set about American history. And after listening to some who apparently hate this country and everything it has ever stood for, quote Rothbard up one side and down the other, I seriously am considering ripping the pages out of the books and running them through my shredder. Just FYI.


Yes, but unfortunately the situation is very different now. And actually, people who wanted to immigrate here ALSO had to show that they would not be a financial burden, or have someone sponsor them. They ALSO were taught American founding history and principles. But, heck, we don't even teach those things to our own kids these days.


Bullshit. They had Sheriffs and the sheriffs formed posses, as needed.


No one here wants REAL ID, a National ID, SS ID, etc. :rolleyes: Nor, is anyone longing for some big wall. What most want is for our government to stop encouraging illegals to invade our country by offering them free handouts of our own money. They've overrun our schools and our hospitals. This simply has to stop.


We all want the welfare state to stop.


You sound like Keith Olbermann. Seriously. Equating the ILLEGAL ALIEN INVASION of our country with legal immigration. They are two very different things.

And as far as welfare goes, I want it ALL to end. But, while I hate paying it for my own countrymen, I DAMN SURE DETEST IT for ILLEGAL ALIENS.



I don't want to be stolen from, by ANYONE.

Tell me, are you so pro-illegal immigration, because you think it will hasten the destruction of the country you despise so much?

http://mises.org/journals/jls/3_1/3_1_2.pdf - Not so wild wild west.

I don't despise this country, I despise the Government. They are not one and the same and conflating the two only hurts your arguement. I for one, would like to see this Government go to the trashbin of history as the same of all past tyrannies. But, that isn't the point. I follow through on the logical conclusion of private property, and the morality of Natural Law and NAP. I follow these to their utmost consistency in everything I believe in. I don't throw holes in my philosophy for utilitarian reasons, like what those of you guys advocate.

So, if you do not advocate militarizing the borders, draconian ID policies, and interference with businesses, then how do you plan to combat illegal immigration? Do you support ICE? Do you support their bullying of businesses that practice outside the White Market? Do you support taxes that allow this Government to exist as it currently does?

I still haven't gotten an answer. How do you plan to stop illegal immigration?

It appears to me many here lambast the Police State on one hand, then want to expand it on the other.

YumYum
12-26-2009, 09:05 PM
Who here advocates Fraud. Can you document it, and then prove it, or are you just being a sycophant? I presume its the latter, as I've seen not a bit of the former.

If I were to judge anarchist capitalist by the comments you make, I would think that they don't know what they want. There is nothing wrong with the concept of Austrian economics; I would welcome it in a heartbeat. But it is not going to happen unless our government collapses, or there is a violent revolution where millions of Americans are murdered. I wish all of mankind could get along; regardless of race, culture, religion or nationality. But sadly, that is not the case. We live in a country that is becoming more divided every day, and Ron Paul's message represented a hope for me that would bring America together by education and hard work, but that too is falling apart because the neo-cons are hijacking Dr. Paul's ideas and his message. So, until I change my mind, I will work as a member of C4L to help change our system by sticking to the Constitution. If I come to a conclusion that our system cannot be changed and is doomed, I will change my course of action. You, being an anarchist/capitalist, have made a decision to overthrow the current system, and you will do whatever it takes. You don't believe in any government, so why wouldn't you commit fraud to help end it? You should be applauding all that is wrong with our system as an anarchist/capitalist, because welfare, fraud, theft, war, the Fed, national debt, bailouts, etc..., are all helping to bring this country's complete destruction. So, for you, what's a little fraud against the enemy? Also, if illegal aliens commit fraud, they are helping to defeat the enemy. In that respect, illegal aliens, unbeknownst to them, are your allies.

revolutionisnow
12-26-2009, 09:06 PM
They are going to come irregardless of how many troops are on the border. How many fences you build, or how much legislative legalese you throw onto businesses about the Fed Gov. or state Governments broaching personal information, or requiring draconian ID's. If you don't stop the incentive, they will always come. How hard is that to comprehend?

If the Government cannot even run USPS how do you think they are going to secure thousands of miles of borders?

When those measures don't work, you will be out there calling for even stricter measures. Eventually we'll live in a de-facto Police State, and things still won't be any better because you have yet to do anything about the cause.

Not really. If you make examples out of a few thousand it will stop.How do other countries handle it? Or do they have millions of illegal aliens coming into their countries also? And welfare is not the only reason they come. If we stopped free health care, housing, schooling, and food programs tomorrow they would still come. Why? Because of the socioeconomic differences. They are able to live a higher quality life here. If they had a higher quality of life in their home country they would not want to come here. Do millions of Canadians come here illegally? Or even immigrate legally? Mexico will not improve with a brain drain going on and slave wages being paid there.

LibertyEagle
12-26-2009, 09:06 PM
They are going to come irregardless of how many troops are on the border. How many fences you build, or how much legislative legalese you throw onto businesses about the Fed Gov. or state Governments broaching personal information, or requiring draconian ID's. If you don't stop the incentive, they will always come. How hard is that to comprehend?
What the hell? EVERYONE HERE AGREES THAT THE HANDOUTS HAVE TO STOP. So, who in hell are you talking to?


If the Government cannot even run USPS how do you think they are going to secure thousands of miles of borders?
I don't see anyone here suggesting the government build "thousands of miles of borders". But, I personally have no issue with them building some in high-crossing areas to make the Border Patrol more efficient.


When those measures don't work, you will be out there calling for even stricter measures. Eventually we'll live in a de-facto Police State, and things still won't be any better because you have yet to do anything about the cause.
You are creating strawmen and then knocking them down yourself. :rolleyes:

rpfan2008
12-26-2009, 09:08 PM
Nations damn sure do have borders.

Of course they do and citizens enjoy their constitutional rights ONLY within those borders.

And btw RP is an American constitutionalists who likes Austrian Economics, not an Austrian economists who likes the constitution.

Dieseler
12-26-2009, 09:13 PM
I gotta take a break from this one.
My guts are purely aching from the laughs.

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 09:13 PM
If I were to judge anarchist capitalist by the comments you make, I would think that they don't know what they want. There is nothing wrong with the concept of Austrian economics; I would welcome it in a heartbeat. But it is not going to happen unless our government collapses, or there is a violent revolution where millions of Americans are murdered. I wish all of mankind could get along; regardless of race, culture, religion or nationality. But sadly, that is not the case. We live in a country that is becoming more divided every day, and Ron Paul's message represented a hope for me that would bring America together by education and hard work, but that too is falling apart because the neo-cons are hijacking Dr. Paul's ideas and his message. So, until I change my mind, I will work as a member of C4L to help change our system by sticking to the Constitution. If I come to a conclusion that our system cannot be changed and is doomed, I will change my course of action. You, being an anarchist/capitalist, have made a decision to overthrow the current system, and you will do whatever it takes. You don't believe in any government, so why wouldn't you commit fraud to help end it? You should be applauding all that is wrong with our system as an anarchist/capitalist, because welfare, fraud, theft, war, the Fed, national debt, bailouts, etc..., are all helping to bring this country's complete destruction. So, for you, what's a little fraud against the enemy? Also, if illegal aliens commit fraud, they are helping to defeat the enemy. In that respect, illegal aliens, unbeknownst to them, are your allies.

I'm not a utilitarian. That should answer your question.

If you would ask me if killing one man to save a hundred is worth the price, I would unhesitatingly say no.

Toureg89
12-26-2009, 09:15 PM
Of course they do and citizens enjoy their constitutional rights ONLY within those borders.

And btw RP is an American constitutionalists who likes Austrian Economics, not an Austrian economists who likes the constitution.

and the constitution also says everyone enjoys natural rights, because they are bestowed by God, based on their being human, and not their citizenship to any specific country.

hence, why we should have open borders, to people who choose to follow our laws, in pursuit of easy access to job/the job market.

people should be limited to their job access only by market competition, not laws promoting "nationalistic interests"

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 09:17 PM
What the hell? EVERYONE HERE AGREES THAT THE HANDOUTS HAVE TO STOP. So, who in hell are you talking to?


I don't see anyone here suggesting the government build "thousands of miles of borders". But, I personally have no issue with them building some in high-crossing areas to make the Border Patrol more efficient.


You are creating strawmen and then knocking them down yourself. :rolleyes:

I posit to you then. Since we both agree the Welfare State must go, how do you plan on stopping illegal immigration since it's quite obvious unless the whole stack of cards fall that the Welfare State will be around until that day?

LibertyEagle
12-26-2009, 09:18 PM
If I were to judge anarchist capitalist by the comments you make, I would think that they don't know what they want. There is nothing wrong with the concept of Austrian economics; I would welcome it in a heartbeat. But it is not going to happen unless our government collapses, or there is a violent revolution where millions of Americans are murdered. I wish all of mankind could get along; regardless of race, culture, religion or nationality. But sadly, that is not the case. We live in a country that is becoming more divided every day, and Ron Paul's message represented a hope for me that would bring America together by education and hard work, but that too is falling apart because the neo-cons are hijacking Dr. Paul's ideas and his message. So, until I change my mind, I will work as a member of C4L to help change our system by sticking to the Constitution. If I come to a conclusion that our system cannot be changed and is doomed, I will change my course of action. You, being an anarchist/capitalist, have made a decision to overthrow the current system, and you will do whatever it takes. You don't believe in any government, so why wouldn't you commit fraud to help end it? You should be applauding all that is wrong with our system as an anarchist/capitalist, because welfare, fraud, theft, war, the Fed, national debt, bailouts, etc..., are all helping to bring this country's complete destruction. So, for you, what's a little fraud against the enemy? Also, if illegal aliens commit fraud, they are helping to defeat the enemy. In that respect, illegal aliens, unbeknownst to them, are your allies.

Don't confuse Austrian Economics with Rothbardian philosophy. They are two very different things.

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 09:20 PM
Don't confuse Austrian Economics with Rothbardian philosophy. They are two very different things.

How come most Austrian Economists today are Voluntaryists?

rpfan2008
12-26-2009, 09:32 PM
and the constitution also says everyone enjoys natural rights, because they are bestowed by God, based on their being human, and not their citizenship to any specific country.

Yes it does but it also makes clear it only guarantees their enforcement/protection within US borders, as it is US constitution not a world constitution.


hence, why we should have open borders, to people who choose to follow our laws, in pursuit of easy access to job/the job market.

Out of 6billion people in this world 5 Billion would readily accept this offer, why Mexicans should be given preference? You make your claim based on being 'human beings' only...aren't other 5 billion people equal to u?? Don't u think such an offer should be extended to all mankind equally? If not why?


people should be limited to their job access only by market competition, not laws promoting "nationalistic interests"

How can you have a right to decide on how citizens of one country should run their affairs and what should be their priorities?

What you are asking for is a Pro-W style handicap match, it's racist if your opponent's hands are free and it's unethical/immoral if you're not allowed to hit him.

revolutionisnow
12-26-2009, 09:32 PM
I posit to you then. Since we both agree the Welfare State must go, how do you plan on stopping illegal immigration since it's quite obvious unless the whole stack of cards fall that the Welfare State will be around until that day?

3 Months well publicized amnesty period to get their life in order and move back to their home country. After that strict penalties for both employers and illegal aliens. Offer rewards to people who call in successful tips to ICE for 6 months or so. Police patrol places like Home Depot and day labor places for a few months. Have parents of children attending public schools show proof of legal residence. With all the money saved you will be able to beef up border patrol troops. There is probably all sorts of technical solutions also, maybe a motion sensors that attach to huge floodlights and sirens, or trained attack dogs/wild wolves that roam along the border inside an electronic fence.

YumYum
12-26-2009, 09:38 PM
or trained attack dogs/wild wolves that roam along the border inside an electronic fence.

lol

rpfan2008
12-26-2009, 09:38 PM
How come most Austrian Economists today are Voluntaryists?


Wow!!

I think you have confused Austrian Economics with Islam, it's not a written book that needs to be followed word for word and no relaxation can be practiced by the user. How can you impose your version of Austrian economics on everyone?

You show very little respect for the law itself but are hellbent on imposing Austrian economics (your version) on others even stricter than the law itself. Like it's sin to skip a module or something :eek:

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 09:41 PM
Wow!!

I think you have confused Austrian Economics with Islam, it's not a written book that needs to be followed word for word and no relaxation can be practiced by the user. How can you impose your version of Austrian economics on everyone?

You show very little respect for the law itself but are hellbent on imposing Austrian economics (your version) on others even stricter than the law itself. Like it's sin to skip a module or something :eek:

The only law should be Natural Law and NAP. All other law is immoral and therefore illegitimate.

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 09:42 PM
3 Months well publicized amnesty period to get their life in order and move back to their home country. After that strict penalties for both employers and illegal aliens. Offer rewards to people who call in successful tips to ICE for 6 months or so. Police patrol places like Home Depot and day labor places for a few months. Have parents of children attending public schools show proof of legal residence. With all the money saved you will be able to beef up border patrol troops. There is probably all sorts of technical solutions also, maybe a motion sensors that attach to huge floodlights and sirens, or trained attack dogs/wild wolves that roam along the border inside an electronic fence.

Welcome to the Police State that rivals East Germany! Have a nice stay, be sure now to never leave home without several pieces of ID and never say anything suspicious. Be kind now, ya'll have a good day.

Unless this is sarcasm, you are not a believer in limited Government thats for sure.

Oh by the way, leave any semblance of freedom and liberty at the door, ya'll want be needing that.

rpfan2008
12-26-2009, 09:47 PM
The only law should be Natural Law and NAP. All other law is immoral and therefore illegitimate.

But who is going to enforce that law? Should there be a national level constitution or what?

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 09:48 PM
But who is going to enforce that law? Should there be a national level constitution or what?

The market-place.

I recommend reading this piece as a primer.

http://mises.org/journals/jls/3_1/3_1_2.pdf

Let me know your analysis.

Toureg89
12-26-2009, 09:52 PM
Yes it does but it also makes clear it only guarantees their enforcement/protection within US borders, as it is US constitution not a world constitution.

exactly. so, when a person comes here, even though they are not a citizen, we should respect their rights while they are here.


Out of 6billion people in this world 5 Billion would readily accept this offer, why Mexicans should be given preference? You make your claim based on being 'human beings' only...aren't other 5 billion people equal to u?? Don't u think such an offer should be extended to all mankind equally? If not why?
that's funny. i don't recall having made a racial preference...

i merely said it should be easier to get legal alien status.

of course, that would make it more likely that mexicans would flock to the US than people of other foreign origins, but that is NOT MY CHOICE, it was left to the chances of geography and history that ethnic mexicans are our southern neighbor, and not asians, or indians, or persians, or the french, or the irish, or colombians.

but if we had easier access to alien status, i'm sure immigration from all foreign countries would increase.

i know for a fact, if the border restrictions were relaxed, i would be able to bring a couple of family members here to live with me, which is what i currently cant do, because we are unable to get them (mainly my grand mother, who i see once every 8-12 years) here for one reason or another.


How can you have a right to decide on how citizens of one country should run their affairs and what should be their priorities?
last time i checked, i'm not making such decisions. i live here, and i vote to change the policies here.

by allowing aliens to come here, despite the fact that they have committed crimes in their home country, does not have an effect on the manipulation of the home country's laws.

their laws are still in place, and if the person ho came here goes back, and gets caught, i'm not going to raise a finger in objection.

when you are in a different country, you have to live by their formal/informal rules, but when you are in the USA, if you haven't previously committed a crime here (where we, for the most part, respect your natural rights), i see no reason to bar you access to all the freedoms americans enjoy.

same goes for americans who wonder overseas. as long as your here, you are, for the most part protected, but if you wonder into other countries, run by different morals, based on different philosophies, you have to deal with their government.



What you are asking for is a Pro-W style handicap match, it's racist if your opponent's hands are free and it's unethical/immoral if you're not allowed to hit him.
not exactly sure what that means.

revolutionisnow
12-26-2009, 09:58 PM
Welcome to the Police State that rivals East Germany! Have a nice stay, be sure now to never leave home without several pieces of ID and never say anything suspicious. Be kind now, ya'll have a good day.

Unless this is sarcasm, you are not a believer in limited Government thats for sure.

Oh by the way, leave any semblance of freedom and liberty at the door, ya'll want be needing that.

Not really. Are there not already tip lines that you report crime to? Illegal immigrants are criminals and should be treated as such. Why should we bend over backwards not to offend people who do not respect the rule of law while a guest in our country? Do you not already have to show proper ID just to fly domestically, or even if you want to cash a check at the bank? Why shouldn't you have to show something to receive $15k+ of free education?

Mandrik
12-26-2009, 10:09 PM
rigged poll.
I support the free market in labor.
I do not believe in fictitional borders or bureaucrats that can perform anything or centralized planning, all of which are required to have "border enforcement".

I voted no because I agree with RSD above.

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 10:14 PM
Not really. Are there not already tip lines that you report crime to? Illegal immigrants are criminals and should be treated as such. Why should we bend over backwards not to offend people who do not respect the rule of law while a guest in our country? Do you not already have to show proper ID just to fly domestically, or even if you want to cash a check at the bank? Why shouldn't you have to show something to receive $15k+ of free education?


Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add “within the limits of the law,” because law is often but the tyrant’s will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual. -- Thomas Jefferson

Live_Free_Or_Die
12-26-2009, 10:16 PM
nt

rpfan2008
12-26-2009, 10:39 PM
exactly. so, when a person comes here

From where he showed up? Was he guaranteed any US rights when he was outside?
And how can he show up without violating any law?

It seems you believe rights are like water coming out of a shower head, if you stand in the way it will hit you and 'enrighten' you.


even though they are not a citizen,

they are trespassers, violators of law.


we should respect their rights while they are here.

but these people have no rights inside US to begin with, as they were not given them at first place. Only human rights exists for them and they should be arrested (as they have violated law of the land) and questioned and then returned.

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 10:43 PM
From where he showed up? Was he guaranteed any US rights when he was outside?
And how can he show up without violating any law?

It seems you believe rights are like water coming out of a shower head, if you stand in the way it will hit you and 'enrighten' you.



they are trespassers, violators of law.



but these people have no rights inside US to begin with, as they were not given them at first place. Only human rights exists for them and they should be arrested (as they have violated law of the land) and questioned and then returned.

Wow! Now the State gives rights! Anything that can be given can be revoked.


Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add “within the limits of the law,” because law is often but the tyrant’s will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual. -- Thomas Jefferson

Kludge
12-26-2009, 10:44 PM
they are trespassers, violators of law.

Ahahahahahaha libertarians respect Legalism, now. lololololol

It's illeeeeeeeeeeeeeegal!

Deport the pot-smokers, the tax evaders, the wretched refuse of our teeming prisons!

Mandrik
12-26-2009, 10:45 PM
but these people have no rights inside US to begin with, as they were not given them at first place. Only human rights exists for them and they should be arrested (as they have violated law of the land) and questioned and then returned.

Are you saying we get our rights from a piece of paper or from being born on a certain plot of land?


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness...

revolutionisnow
12-26-2009, 10:51 PM
Ahahahahahaha libertarians respect Legalism, now. lololololol

It's illeeeeeeeeeeeeeegal!

Deport the pot-smokers, the tax evaders, the wretched refuse of our teeming prisons!

Illegal immigration is not a victimless crime.

Kludge
12-26-2009, 10:52 PM
Illegal immigration is not a victimless crime.

It is when it's public land they're trespassing on.

Met Income
12-26-2009, 10:52 PM
Government is not a victimless crime.

fixed

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 10:52 PM
Are you saying we get our rights from a piece of paper or from being born on a certain plot of land?

The only thing I would change with the DoI is to take out pursuit of happiness and to replace it with property.

rpfan2008
12-26-2009, 10:53 PM
Wow! Now the State gives rights! Anything that can be given can be revoked.


Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add “within the limits of the law,” because law is often but the tyrant’s will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual. -- Thomas Jefferson

If an illegal alien produces this Jefferson quote inside the court will he become eligible for a direct citizenship/equal rights as any other US citizen?

Who give rights?
The Constitution of the land. It can give rights only to it's own citizens as it can't be enforced outside. It may recognize some basic rights of all humans, but it never gives citizenship to all humans outside.

Met Income
12-26-2009, 10:54 PM
Despite the nit picking most will understand the polls intent.

So instead of answering the question, you dodge it. I wonder why.

The poll is loaded. What is a nation and why does it have rights?

rpfan2008
12-26-2009, 10:56 PM
It is when it's public land they're trespassing on.

How many people should be allowed to commit this victimless crime?

In other words how many illegals should be allowed to come inside. What is the upper limit?

Met Income
12-26-2009, 10:56 PM
Diversity of Ideology does matter however when the faction in power uses power to take from some to give to others while turning a blind eye at invaders who would vote for them to maintain that power illegally.

That's a problem with the SYSTEM, not freedom to travel. American born citizens also use the democratic process to use coercive force to steal from others and take away natural rights. This is the much bigger problem. Even without immigration, we still have these problems.

Met Income
12-26-2009, 10:57 PM
How many people should be allowed to commit this victimless crime?

In other words how many illegals should be allowed to come inside. What is the upper limit?

If you want to take away illegal immigration, I'm going to take away government for using violence to promote their agenda.

rpfan2008
12-26-2009, 11:01 PM
If you want to take away illegal immigration, I'm going to take away government for using violence to promote their agenda.

wha..

By passing a law and ordering the law enforcement to identify and deport illegals-- this is how illegals would be taken away.

Now can you tell me how you're planning to take away the govt?

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 11:03 PM
If an illegal alien produces this Jefferson quote inside the court will he become eligible for a direct citizenship/equal rights as any other US citizen?

Who give rights?
The Constitution of the land. It can give rights only to it's own citizens as it can't be enforced outside. It may recognize some basic rights of all humans, but it never gives citizenship to all humans outside.

Who "gives" rights?

No one. They are inherent in humanity.

I do not care what the Mafia gives us. I only care about what is inherent being a human fucking being.

The Constitution is a "social contract". I do not recognize social contracts. Social Contract is in essence, another person in another time signing a contract on your behalf even though you have yet to be borne. Therefore I reject this as I have not consented, or signed this contract, or its specific stipulations.

Secondly, the Constitution does not grant "legal" privileges to its citizens, but to everyone on American soil. Why do you think the 14th is the way it is? Why do you think people enjoy the legal privileges of US citizens in US judiciaries even though they are quote on quote "illegal".

You also make the mistake of conflating contractual territory with the original birthplace of another. The contract is valid (In a legal sense, just like the British Monarchy was valid in the colonies) within the 50 states. So whoever is within the contractual territory now falls under that contract. It is the same in private contracts that would arise to fulfill law and order. My property is covered by Company A, therefore everyone who is on my property is under Company A law until they leave.

No one is saying the Constitution grants citizenship to the world, it however, does grant all legal privileges under the Constitution to everyone within the contractual territory (50 States).

Also, the Constitution hasn't meant a damn thing in over 150 years. When will you wake up. You don't have to look further than Irwin Schiff to see how futile it is to try and get the State/politicians to recognize and follow something that has no consequences if they don't follow it. We live in a country of arbitrary law.

Met Income
12-26-2009, 11:03 PM
wha..

By passing a law and ordering the law enforcement to identify and deport illegals-- this is how illegals would be taken away.

Now can you tell me how you're planning to take away the govt?

Now tell me how you're planning to take away illegal immigration? Your solution is part of the problem. Our violent monopoly looks the other way for political reasons, while also increasing the welfare state. Sorry, the government solution doesn't work, as we've seen.

rpfan2008
12-26-2009, 11:06 PM
Who "gives" rights?

No one. They are inherent in humanity.

Horse shit.

Do I have a inherent human right to use your CC?
All rights are not inherent in humanity.

rpfan2008
12-26-2009, 11:07 PM
Now tell me how you're planning to take away illegal immigration? Your solution is part of the problem. Our violent monopoly looks the other way for political reasons, while also increasing the welfare state. Sorry, the government solution doesn't work, as we've seen.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=2466230&postcount=187

Tell me how you're planning to "take away the govt".

Kludge
12-26-2009, 11:10 PM
How many people should be allowed to commit this victimless crime?

In other words how many illegals should be allowed to come inside. What is the upper limit?

I encourage everyone to commit as many victimless crimes as possible.

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 11:11 PM
Horse shit.

Do I have a inherent human right to use your CC?
All rights are not inherent in humanity.

You are being purposefully obtuse and increasingly asinine. You know exactly what Natural Law is.

At least I know now you do not believe in the Declaration of Independance, and you believe in arbitrary power and rule. I DONT WANT TO HEAR YOU EVER FUCKING COMPLAIN ABOUT ONE THING THIS GOVERNMENT DOES, YOU HEAR ME? Hypocrits and positivists are worse than ideological Communists. At least they stick to principles, or have any whatsoever.

Met Income
12-26-2009, 11:12 PM
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=2466230&postcount=187

Tell me how you're planning to "take away the govt".

Clearly, we're both arguing what "should be." And we both know, neither will happen - because the government is a violent monopoly. And that supports my point.

Met Income
12-26-2009, 11:13 PM
Horse shit.

Do I have a inherent human right to use your CC?
All rights are not inherent in humanity.

THE LAW is the EXACT argument that every collectivist uses. "I believe in freedom, but not this time. This time is DIFFERENT. It's too important not to use government to solve our problems."

LibertyEagle
12-26-2009, 11:16 PM
I encourage everyone to commit as many victimless crimes as possible.

Sure. But, illegal immigration isn't a victimless crime. Illegal aliens have flooded our classrooms and hospitals, amongst many other things, and all of that is paid for by taxpayer dollars. Not to mention the fact that our children are now getting an even worse education than they were before.

Met Income
12-26-2009, 11:17 PM
Sure. But, illegal immigration isn't a victimless crime. Illegal aliens have flooded our classrooms and hospitals, amongst many other things.

Only because the state has enacted the welfare state through violence. Since non-illegal aliens also abuse the welfare state, this is a much bigger issue.

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 11:18 PM
Sure. But, illegal immigration isn't a victimless crime. Illegal aliens have flooded our classrooms and hospitals, amongst many other things.

So we are then, in your definition all criminals, so what seperates the "legal" criminals and the "illegal" criminals, when we are both criminals?

If as you say, the act of using public schools and hospitals are criminal, what do you propose the penalty be?

cpike
12-26-2009, 11:19 PM
I'm not really in much of a mood to read through 20 pages of discussion and jumping in where it is right now. I take what is for the most part the Paul position. First of all we need boarders, it defines where our nation starts and ends, pretty obvious you need those.

I don't see how removing our borders makes us more of a sovereign. I just see it as a step towards global governance. I have no problems with allowing more people to go through in a legal process. I don't see having a global republic that actually protects liberty as a possibility. We need to protect our sovereignty, so we need to defend our borders.

Removing a lot of programs and other silly legislation could do a lot to solve this problem in a free market way.

jbrace
12-26-2009, 11:19 PM
Sure. But, illegal immigration isn't a victimless crime. Illegal aliens have flooded our classrooms and hospitals, amongst many other things, and all of that is paid for by taxpayer dollars. Not to mention the fact that our children are now getting an even worse education than they were before.

lol do illegal immigrants not pay taxes when they buy goods in the market place? Since when are we such big proponents of taxes anyway? I actually support them, because they will help end our welfare state. The sooner the better. Our children are getting a worse education because of bad parenting and the public school system. Should we increase the department of education too, because that proven to work so far. You guys need to get a grip. Once again it's the system not the illegal immigrants? What are we doing here if we dont think we can ever stop the welfare state? Why even fight at all?

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 11:20 PM
Only because the state has enacted the welfare state through violence. Since non-illegal aliens also abuse the welfare state, this is a much bigger issue.

You are missing the point. Look deeper at what LE just wrote. It is actually quite fascinating the lengths people like LE will go to, destroying logic, justice, and Natural Law for the sake of utilitarianism, which as we know every State intervention turns around and bites us in the proverbial ass. Still, the majority of people never learn their lesson, so we are destined to the cyclical nature of getting bitten in the ass. It's like the old wise man telling the young child. The young child never heeds the sage advice.

LibertyEagle
12-26-2009, 11:20 PM
THE LAW is the EXACT argument that every collectivist uses. "I believe in freedom, but not this time. This time is DIFFERENT. It's too important not to use government to solve our problems."

Oh, c'mon. Defending our borders is actually one of the few things that our federal government is constitutionally supposed to do. Remember, Rule by Law?

jbrace
12-26-2009, 11:21 PM
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=2466230&postcount=187

Tell me how you're planning to "take away the govt".


Once again your treating a system.. Ok lets deport them, they will just come back. Let's beef up the borders, spending billions of dollars that we don't have, to protect our low paying jobs. Let's build a fence that will reach to the heavens with tax payer dollars! Increase the budget to homeland security! haha You guys are advocating for the welfare program. None of this wouldn't be an issue if we didn't have mininum wage laws, costly business regulations that send jobs over seas. OSHA, Department of education, Medicare, Medicade, Social Security, Department of Agriculture, a fiat money system, a government that rewards billions to mis-managed companies, the federal reserve, the manipulation of gold prices, the list goes on.. Doing away with these government programs is a way you get government out of the way. The free market does and always has done a better job at regulating an economy than government ever has, or will.

rpfan2008
12-26-2009, 11:21 PM
You are being purposefully obtuse and increasingly asinine. You know exactly what Natural Law is.

At least I know now you do not believe in the Declaration of Independance, and you believe in arbitrary power and rule. I DONT WANT TO HEAR YOU EVER FUCKING COMPLAIN ABOUT ONE THING THIS GOVERNMENT DOES, YOU HEAR ME? Hypocrits are worse than ideological Communists. At least they stick to principles, or have any whatsoever.


Look you are a paid stooge, and we all know that.

Declaration of independence was declaration of American independence, not a global declaration of independence and bill of rights. Can't u see the difference??
You are making an argument that since US has declared some rights it's for everybody around the world...that's simply not true. You are twisting this in a naive manner.

If illegal immigration is in accordance with the constitution how you are going to stop it when the upper limit is reached..the whole world will flood into the US, what you are going to do about it?? Got any solutions for that?

jbrace
12-26-2009, 11:22 PM
Look you are a paid stooge, and we all know that.

Declaration of independence was declaration of American independence, not a global declaration of independence and bill of rights. Can't u see the difference??
You are making an argument that since US has declared some rights it's for everybody around the world...that's simply not true. You are twisting this in a naive manner.

If illegal immigration is in accordance with the constitution how you are going to stop it when the upper limit is reached..the whole world will flood into the US, what you are going to do about it?? Got any solutions for that?

Lol, what makes you born with those rights, but not another man? If you are human and believe you are guaranteed these rights, then every human is.

South Park Fan
12-26-2009, 11:23 PM
Oh, c'mon. Defending our borders is actually one of the few things that our federal government is constitutionally supposed to do. Remember, Rule by Law?

Where in the constitution is the clause that authorizes the government to control its borders?

Mandrik
12-26-2009, 11:23 PM
Look you are a paid stooge, and we all know that.

Declaration of independence was declaration of American independence, not a global declaration of independence and bill of rights. Can't u see the difference??
You are making an argument that since US has declared some rights it's for everybody around the world...that's simply not true. You are twisting this in a naive manner.

If illegal immigration is in accordance with the constitution how you are going to stop it when the upper limit is reached..the whole world will flood into the US, what you are going to do about it?? Got any solutions for that?


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

Show me where it says "All men born on this specified plot of land are created equal."

Met Income
12-26-2009, 11:25 PM
Oh, c'mon. Defending our borders is actually one of the few things that our federal government is constitutionally supposed to do. Remember, Rule by Law?

We tried that and it's failed miserably.

rpfan2008
12-26-2009, 11:25 PM
Lol, what makes you born with those rights, but not another man? If you are human and believe you are garunteed these rights, then every human is.

This is the CC argument argument I made earlier.

Your credit card is yours mine is mine.

I have my rights in my country and you in yours. In each others countries we are just humans and protected by international contracts that guarantee us some basic rights. Not citizenship, stupid.

Met Income
12-26-2009, 11:26 PM
Look you are a paid stooge, and we all know that.


Link? Prove it or stop spewing BS.

LibertyEagle
12-26-2009, 11:26 PM
lol do illegal immigrants not pay taxes when they buy goods in the market place? Since when are we such big proponents of taxes anyway? I actually support them, because they will help end our welfare state. The sooner the better. Our children are getting a worse education because of bad parenting and the public school system. Should we increase the department of education too, because that proven to work so far. You guys need to get a grip. Once again it's the system not the illegal immigrants? What are we doing here if we dont think we can ever stop the welfare state? Why even fight at all?

Who said anything about the dept of education? It should be abolished, of course. That's really a red herring you threw out there, you know.

I WANT to stop the welfare state and that includes for illegal aliens too. Do YOU not?

Our children are getting a worse education for a variety of reasons. Most of those are internal and in my opinion, intentional. But, we damn sure are idiots if we are inviting it to be made even worse by welcoming a bunch of illegal aliens to flood our country and be allowed to go into our schools. Who in hell is paying for all the damn translators and special teachers and classes? Do you want to pay for it? Well, go right ahead, but keep your hands out of MY pockets. But, I guess with some of you, you are willing to put that aside when it comes to illegal aliens.

EDIT:


I actually support them, because they will help end our welfare state.

How do you perceive illegal aliens helping end our welfare state?

jbrace
12-26-2009, 11:27 PM
This is the CC argument argument I made earlier.

Your credit card is yours mine is mine.

I have my rights in my country and you in yours. In each others countries we are just humans and protected by international contracts that guarantee us some basic rights. Not citizenship, stupid.

Were talking about rights.. rights are not tangible...

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness!!

LibertyEagle
12-26-2009, 11:28 PM
We tried that and it's failed miserably.

There are a whole lot of things that we have failed at. Does that mean we just throw in the towel on all of it? If our Founders had done that, we would not have a country. And if Ron Paul felt the same way as you, we wouldn't now be close to getting the FED audited.

Met Income
12-26-2009, 11:29 PM
Who said anything about the dept of education? It should be abolished, of course. That's really a red herring you threw out there, you know.

I WANT to stop the welfare state and that includes for illegal aliens too. Do YOU not?

Our children are getting a worse education for a variety of reasons. Most of those are internal and in my opinion, intentional. But, we damn sure are idiots if we are inviting it to be made even worse by welcoming a bunch of illegal aliens to flood our country and be allowed to go into our schools. Who in hell is paying for all the damn translators and special teachers and classes? Do you want to pay for it? Well, go right ahead, but keep your hands out of MY pockets. But, I guess with some of you, you are willing to put that aside when it comes to illegal aliens.

You want to stop the welfare state but you think the same violent, monopolistic, corrupt institution that create the welfare state will take it away? Not gonna happen. Certainly not in the long-term.

rpfan2008
12-26-2009, 11:29 PM
We tried that and it's failed miserably.

So this is a reason for encouraging it?

By your argument if govt. can't stop a crime it should promote/subsidize it? :confused:

BuddyRey
12-26-2009, 11:29 PM
I believe in property rights, not government rights.

If you want to invite a Mexican or Moroccan or Norwegian or whatever onto your land, you shouldn't have to ask for any government's permission, nor should the individual you're contracting with. The contract would only be between you and your guest/employee/friend.

On the other hand, if you as a property owner decide you don't want that same Mexican, Moroccan, or Norwegian on your land (or any "legal" citizen, for that matter), you have every right to deny him or her access to your property. The prerogative is that of the property owner, not of the DC bureaucrat.

Kludge
12-26-2009, 11:29 PM
Sure. But, illegal immigration isn't a victimless crime. Illegal aliens have flooded our classrooms and hospitals, amongst many other things, and all of that is paid for by taxpayer dollars. Not to mention the fact that our children are now getting an even worse education than they were before.

But that isn't illegal immigration.

This is similar to the argument on punishing owners of child pornography and stolen property. Even if many illegal immigrants commit crimes of aggression, I can't imagine all do. Immigration quotas shouldn't exist, so as a workaround immigrants should come in hopes of amnesty where we can tag, vaccinate, and tax them.

South Park Fan
12-26-2009, 11:30 PM
Sure. But, illegal immigration isn't a victimless crime. Illegal aliens have flooded our classrooms and hospitals, amongst many other things, and all of that is paid for by taxpayer dollars. Not to mention the fact that our children are now getting an even worse education than they were before.

Plenty of people who were born in the United States are guilty of using public schools and hospitals without paying taxes too. The fallacy here is that because some people happen to both commit the victimless crime of crossing an imaginary line and benefit from the states' victimed crime of theft, it is assumed that all people who cross imaginary lines are criminals. Only one with a collectivist mindset cannot see the fallacy. If this is to be an argument to "secure our borders" and deport certain people on the wrong side of the imaginary line, then we should also deport any poor people benefiting from public services.

Met Income
12-26-2009, 11:30 PM
There are a whole lot of things that we have failed at. Does that mean we just throw in the towel on all of it? If our Founders had done that, we would not have a country. And if Ron Paul felt the same way as you, we wouldn't now be close to getting the FED audited.

The Constitution was well-intentioned but inherently flawed. We've seen hard evidence that governments don't work -- it took 200 years for our limited government to become a mockery of itself.

Met Income
12-26-2009, 11:31 PM
So this is a reason for encouraging it?

By your argument if govt. can't stop a crime it should promote/subsidize it? :confused:

I'm saying you're attacking the wrong enemy. People would never be able to leech off the system without the system in place.

rpfan2008
12-26-2009, 11:37 PM
Were talking about rights.. rights are not tangible...

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness!!


Of course all men are created equal, then why I shouldn't have the right to use your CC, am I not equal? I could buy some happiness too besides enjoying my life with liberty.

LibertyEagle
12-26-2009, 11:38 PM
But that isn't illegal immigration.
Huh? How is that not illegal immigration?


This is similar to the argument on punishing owners of child pornography and stolen property. Even if many illegal immigrants commit crimes of aggression, I can't imagine all do. Immigration quotas shouldn't exist, so as a workaround immigrants should come in hopes of amnesty where we can tag, vaccinate, and tax them.
Well, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. We have the right to choose from which countries we want to allow people to immigrate from, which people are allowed to immigrate, and how quickly we allow them in.

We don't owe anything to anyone in another country, other than being well-wishers and trading partners. And we do that, to benefit our own country. That's also a part of non-intervention.

LibertyEagle
12-26-2009, 11:40 PM
The Constitution was well-intentioned but inherently flawed. We've seen hard evidence that governments don't work -- it took 200 years for our limited government to become a mockery of itself.

Now, it would be interesting to do a cross poll to see how many that voted FOR the illegal alien invasion of our country, also hate the Constitution, and everything this country was founded upon. I know it's not everyone, but it would be interesting to see the stats.

rpfan2008
12-26-2009, 11:41 PM
I have a strange feeling that mods are gaming us...

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 11:41 PM
Look you are a paid stooge, and we all know that.

Declaration of independence was declaration of American independence, not a global declaration of independence and bill of rights. Can't u see the difference??
You are making an argument that since US has declared some rights it's for everybody around the world...that's simply not true. You are twisting this in a naive manner.

If illegal immigration is in accordance with the constitution how you are going to stop it when the upper limit is reached..the whole world will flood into the US, what you are going to do about it?? Got any solutions for that?

One, it is not I who pimps for the State, it is you. I seek to dismantle and abolish the State. If anyone is going to be paid, it is going to be you.

The DoI expressely states:


When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That's pretty straightforward to me.

The DoI was penned by Thomas Jefferson based on Natural Law that was derived from St. Thomas Aquinas, School of Salamanca, and John Locke.

The only person who is naive here, is the one who gives arbitrary power to the Mafia.

As for regulating over abundance, the Market does this wonderfully. How I would do it? Either abolish the Constitution or allow Private Law institutions, private defense securities, private courts, etc. A person can either choose to sign the Constitution or, to join a Private institution. The Market therefore, is the best regulator. For instance, in the market there is no welfare save for charity and NPO's. There is no lawful theft. Therefore, if the market for a certain job is over supplied (Labor is subject to the laws of supply and demand (Says law)), then the prices be reflected accordingly. If the price is below a certain standard for an individual they will either look for employment in another market (Say, a switch from engineering to nursing, etc.), or leave to where his labor is more scarce.

Also, what do you mean by upper limit?

Without the State and with entreprenuership unleashed the US could easily allow for a large increase of standard of living along with a large population boost. Without any public lands, all lands would be private and be accordingly invested in. Without theft, more people will have more money to invest, and without the Federal Reserve and fiat money, our savings will be safe and stable, and we will once again return to what Capitalism needs...Capital and savings.

rpfan2008
12-26-2009, 11:44 PM
One, it is not I who pimps for the State, it is you. I seek to dismantle and abolish the State. If anyone is going to be paid, it is going to be you.

SHUT UP

You guys are gaming us :D

LibertyEagle
12-26-2009, 11:44 PM
The Constitution was well-intentioned but inherently flawed. We've seen hard evidence that governments don't work -- it took 200 years for our limited government to become a mockery of itself.

By the way, that's complete bullshit. The people in the U.S. have had it better than most people that have ever lived. Which is why so very many want to immigrate here. Unfortunately, a document cannot do everything by itself and we were told by our Founders that we had to stay vigilant. We did not. We allowed it to be runover and runover. So now we are where we are. No, it's not perfect, and it can and should be carefully amended at some point, but to so willingly throw out the very thing that laid the framework for the freedom that we all have had for so very many years, is completely foolish and naive.

Met Income
12-26-2009, 11:44 PM
SEAL THE BORDERS...

so only "legal" Americans can bankrupt the system through the welfare state.

South Park Fan
12-26-2009, 11:45 PM
Now, it would be interesting to do a cross poll to see how many that voted FOR the illegal alien invasion of our country, also hate the Constitution, and everything this country was founded upon. I know it's not everyone, but it would be interesting to see the stats.

I see you still haven't answered my earlier question about where in the Constition authorizes the federal government to control immigration into this country?

rpfan2008
12-26-2009, 11:46 PM
I was suspicious when I met those mysterious strangers in the chat...



FOLKS IGNORE THIS THREAD

MODS ARE GAMING YOU

CHRISTMAS PWNAGE



:D:D:D:D

Met Income
12-26-2009, 11:47 PM
By the way, that's complete bullshit. The people in the U.S. have had it better than most people that have ever lived. Which is why so very many want to immigrate here. Unfortunately, a document cannot do everything by itself and we were told by our Founders that we had to stay vigilant. We did not. We allowed it to be runover and runover. So now we are where we are. No, it's not perfect, and it can and should be carefully amended at some point, but to so willingly throw out the very thing that laid the framework for the freedom that we all have had for so very many years, is completely foolish and naive.

We're been better off because relatively speaking, we've had more economic and personal freedoms than other nations. If we had more of these, we'd be even better off.

See, the issue is that there's no perfect document to protect us from the violent monopoly. Once you open the door, it will grow and grow. Which is exactly what it's done since 1776. It doesn't work. Time for something else.

LibertyEagle
12-26-2009, 11:47 PM
One, it is not I who pimps for the State, it is you.
Oh really? How is that military paycheck that you are getting, anyway?

Hypocrite, anyone?


I seek to dismantle and abolish the State. If anyone is going to be paid, it is going to be you.

Will that be before or after you stop receiving a paycheck from the STATE?

Met Income
12-26-2009, 11:48 PM
SHUT UP

You guys are gaming us :D

Link or stop spewing garbage you can't prove.

LibertyEagle
12-26-2009, 11:49 PM
I was suspicious when I met those mysterious strangers in the chat...



FOLKS IGNORE THIS THREAD

MODS ARE GAMING YOU

CHRISTMAS PWNAGE



:D:D:D:D

I wish I could say that what you said is true. But, unfortunately, it is not. :(

rpfan2008
12-26-2009, 11:50 PM
Link or stop spewing garbage you can't prove.


Freedom of speech bro

yo yo

I have links.

South Park Fan
12-26-2009, 11:50 PM
Oh really? How is that military paycheck that you are getting, anyway?

Hypocrite, anyone?



Will that be before or after you stop receiving a paycheck from the STATE?

Ad hominem

Met Income
12-26-2009, 11:50 PM
Freedom of speech bro

yo yo

I have links.

You're a pink dinosaur. Prove you aren't.

Two can play this silly game.

South Park Fan
12-26-2009, 11:52 PM
Freedom of speech bro

yo yo

I have links.

Obviously not, or you would have used them by now. Of course, paranoid conspiracy theories wouldn't be used if the respondent had a valid argument.

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 11:53 PM
Huh? How is that not illegal immigration?


Well, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. We have the right to choose from which countries we want to allow people to immigrate from, which people are allowed to immigrate, and how quickly we allow them in.

We don't owe anything to anyone in another country, other than being well-wishers and trading partners. And we do that, to benefit our own country. That's also a part of non-intervention.

Who is this we? You don't own my property, nor does the Federal Government. I am sole property owner whether the Mafia says I am or not.

rpfan2008
12-26-2009, 11:53 PM
You're a pink dinosaur. Prove you aren't.

Two can play this silly game.

caught :D
at last

Yes I'm a pink dino

rpfan2008
12-26-2009, 11:54 PM
Obviously not, or you would have used them by now. Of course, paranoid conspiracy theories wouldn't be used if the respondent had a valid argument.

can you speak a bit louder please, I can't hear you.

LibertyEagle
12-26-2009, 11:54 PM
We're been better off because relatively speaking, we've had more economic and personal freedoms than other nations. If we had more of these, we'd be even better off.

See, the issue is that there's no perfect document to protect us from the violent monopoly. Once you open the door, it will grow and grow. Which is exactly what it's done since 1776. It doesn't work.

NOTHING will last forever. Especially, if we do not do our jobs in defending it. But, a constitutional republic allowed a lot of people to grow up in a pretty dang nice environment, live nice lives and raise their children. What other form of government, or anarchy, if you wish, in recent history that allowed the same?

What you seem to be griping about is that a piece of paper can't just do it all by ourselves, allowing us to just sit on our asses and not get involved. Well, guess what, people wouldn't be able to do that in an anarchy either.


Time for something else.

Oh, just "something else", eh? That leaves the door wide open, now doesn't it? Let's have full-fledged Communism. Or, become a 3rd world country like the anarchical wonderland, Somalia. Just dandy. Can't wait.

LibertyEagle
12-26-2009, 11:56 PM
Who is this we? You don't own my property, nor does the Federal Government. I am sole property owner whether the Mafia says I am or not.

We live in a country called the United States and as a member of the military, you probably swore an oath to defend the Constitution. Did you not? You know, that same document that you so wish to destroy.

surf
12-26-2009, 11:56 PM
i'm one that likes to think that wherever i set foot on this earth i should be a free man (as long as i have an owners permission to be on their property and do not violate another individuals rights to life, liberty, property, etc.)

i'm one of the 23 so far that voted for the second option.

i'll second everyone on here that says that this is a shitty poll.

sorry i'm contributing to this....

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 11:56 PM
Now, it would be interesting to do a cross poll to see how many that voted FOR the illegal alien invasion of our country, also hate the Constitution, and everything this country was founded upon. I know it's not everyone, but it would be interesting to see the stats.

This country was founded on Natural Law. The country abandoned that when it signed the AoC and then the Constitution.

I hate the State in all its institutions. I hate theft. I hate coercive arbitrary power. I hate privileged and legal monopolies granted to, and from the State.

We were founded on the DoI, and I wish we would get back to those principles. It is I who express the logical expression of those principles in all its advocacy, where you do not.

You can wrap yourself in the Constitution, or the flag, or whatever patriotic symbol you want, but it doesn't make your assertions true.

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 11:58 PM
We live in a country called the United States and as a member of the military, you probably swore an oath to defend the Constitution. Did you not? You know, that same document that you so wish to destroy.

Yes, I did. I however, have opened my mind and learned the truth. Therefore my only allegiance is to Natural Law and NAP. Natural Law and NAP trumps all man-made positivist bullshit.

rpfan2008
12-26-2009, 11:59 PM
Who is this we? You don't own my property, nor does the Federal Government. I am sole property owner whether the Mafia says I am or not.


Thomas Jefferson was a globalist ...and he signed the declaration of independence of this whole world..

and property doesn't exist, it's a conspiracy theory.

South Park Fan
12-27-2009, 12:00 AM
NOTHING will last forever. Especially, if we do not do our jobs in defending it. But, a constitutional republic allowed a lot of people to grow up in a pretty dang nice environment, live nice lives and raise their children. What other form of government, or anarchy, if you wish, in recent history that allowed the same?

What you seem to be griping about is that a piece of paper can't just do it all by ourselves, allowing us to just sit on our asses and not get involved. Well, guess what, people wouldn't be able to do that in an anarchy either.

Oh, just "something else", eh? That leaves the door wide open, now doesn't it? Let's have full-fledged Communism. Or, become a 3rd world country like the anarchical wonderland, Somalia. Just dandy. Can't wait.

If a constitutional republic requires "eternal vigilance" to sustain itself, then isn't it redundant to have a constitution in the first place? If we did not have a government that was constantly stealing our liberties, there would be no need to have "eternal vigilance" and people could live more productive lives. The reason government constantly grows is because decent people are attracted toward honest professions, leaving thugs to the professions resting on coercion. If law were voluntary, there would be more decent people in law enforcement and "eternal vigilance" would be unnecessary. Additionally, even if thugs did try to expand their law enforcement agency under voluntaryism, their customers could just change providers, something that cannot be done under a monopolistic legal system.

South Park Fan
12-27-2009, 12:02 AM
We live in a country called the United States and as a member of the military, you probably swore an oath to defend the Constitution. Did you not? You know, that same document that you so wish to destroy.

http://www.la-articles.org.uk/FL-5-4-3.pdf

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-27-2009, 12:03 AM
By the way, that's complete bullshit. The people in the U.S. have had it better than most people that have ever lived. Which is why so very many want to immigrate here. Unfortunately, a document cannot do everything by itself and we were told by our Founders that we had to stay vigilant. We did not. We allowed it to be runover and runover. So now we are where we are. No, it's not perfect, and it can and should be carefully amended at some point, but to so willingly throw out the very thing that laid the framework for the freedom that we all have had for so very many years, is completely foolish and naive.

What are you talking about? Have you ever heard of the Whiskey Rebellion? The Constitution was trashed the moment it was ratified. The moment George Washington took up arms and army against free people who only wished to exercise their Natural rights he set precedent. From then on, anyone who challenged the supremacy of the State, and its monopolistic power were to be snuffed out. We cannot change the system, except within the system itself, and as you know the State holds all the cards. We've (proverbially) been trying for near 150+ years now and all that we've managed is literally zero. The State has been increased in every successive Presidency.