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Naraku
12-24-2009, 11:42 PM
A post from a blog I just recently started:


Despite attempts to dismiss the idea, considerable evidence exists indicating the tea parties are establishment efforts to mobilize the masses in support of favored policies rather than a grassroots uprising. Notable was that very soon after Rick Santelli's call for a "Chicago Tea Party" protesting Obama's policies a site was launched to prepare for "tea party" protests throughout the country. This site, called chicagoteaparty.com had in fact been purchased in August the previous year by a major Republican talk radio host in Chicago. The radio host, Milt Rosenberg, was also responsible for pushing the connection between William Ayers and Barack Obama during the election. Another major player was Eric Odom who is tied into the "drill, drill, drill" campaign in 2008. He is also connected to the Sam Adams Alliance which, through looking at its board of directors, leads to the group behind this major front, Koch Industries, one of the largest private enterprises in the United States.

The Koch family, principally David and Charles the sons of Fred Koch pictured to the right, are essentially the George Soros of establishment conservatives. Among the groups the Koch family funds most notable with regards to the Tea Party Movement are FreedomWorks and Americans for Prosperity. Both groups have been essential to the organization of tea party protests across the country and were involved in other notable staged "grassroots" events in history.

Their professed belief in liberty and freedom or their claimed libertarianism are challenged after reviewing the politicians and policies they support. FreedomWorks strongly supports NAFTA and other free trade agreements which lead to the creation of supranational authorities accountable only to the bureaucracy. Indeed, the very means by which they push policy belies their distrust of freedom. Unlike libertarians in the Ron Paul Movement the organizers of the tea party protests espouse neoliberalism in conflict with traditional libertarian values, indeed members of the Koch-funded CATO Institute have criticized Ron Paul. Not only favoring the formation of supranational entities like NAFTA the forces behind the tea party protests support the currency manipulation of monetarism implemented by central banks like the Federal Reserve, which is itself owned and run by the large corporate banks under the auspices of an independent government agency.

Source: New Spring of Nations (http://newspringofnations.blogspot.com/2009/12/hijacking-libertarianism-tea-party.html)

Ethek
12-24-2009, 11:46 PM
Intresting... Thanks for the link.

Kludge
12-24-2009, 11:53 PM
Interesting. It's too bad the Kochs are so secretive: I'd like to hear their explanation. Anyway, I didn't know there was much of a "Tea Party Movement." Are they still active?

MN Patriot
12-25-2009, 07:55 AM
Bring signs and literature to these Tea Parties calling out the neo-cons.

They are typical politicians, latching onto popular sentiments in order to win elections. They don't actually have to believe in freedom.

LibertyEagle
12-25-2009, 08:04 AM
Groups/people will always jump in to fill voids that we do not fill ourselves.

I'm not sure how to do it, but it seems to me that somehow we've got to get more into the proactive mode, rather than primarily in the reactive/defense mode, as we are in now.

BillyDkid
12-25-2009, 08:58 AM
A post from a blog I just recently started:



Source: New Spring of Nations (http://newspringofnations.blogspot.com/2009/12/hijacking-libertarianism-tea-party.html)Well, this kind of thing has been a concern from the very start of the RP movement gaining national attention. Many have expressed concern from the beginning about the movement being co-opted. I don't know what the answer is. It is always a fundamental strategy to funnel discontent into harmless, fruitless directions. My feeling is that it is up to those who are well known in the movement to consistently point out that the RP/liberty movement is distinct from the right wing faux liberty movement and continually point out that their motives and desires have little to do with defending liberty in any broad sense. We can talk about it all we want in here, but nothing we say amounts to much. It gets confusing, but we need to distinguish ourselves from the Sarah Palin, Newt Gingrich (and others) who have tried to leap to the front of our parade and take us down side streets.

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-25-2009, 09:08 AM
Distance ourselves from the Armey's, Palins, Fox, bunch. Don't let another Reagan moment to happen again goddamnit. Hopefully we get a lot of our liberty-candidates elected in 2010 so we can show them where we stand and where the faux-bots stand. 2012 should be a lot of fun, I'm looking forward to it. I have a good feeling Ron will run again. It'll be 10x frenetic this time around, and he will win. If you thought 2008 was crazy, you haven't seen anything yet, and don't be afraid to confront the fauxers with truth.

I'm thinking two good standards for liberty-candidates, and those who are in this movement is to espouse a strict non-interventionist foreign policy and to abolish the income tax and replace it with nothing. Those two criteria usually distinguish the real movement and the faux movement.

MN Patriot
12-25-2009, 09:49 AM
I'm thinking two good standards for liberty-candidates, and those who are in this movement is to espouse a strict non-interventionist foreign policy and to abolish the income tax and replace it with nothing. Those two criteria usually distinguish the real movement and the faux movement.

Yes, the neo-cons can't tell the difference between isolationism and non-interventionism.

Very few Republicans talk about ending the income tax. If it is suggested, they act like Democrats and the first thing they sacrifice are roads and the military.

sofia
12-25-2009, 12:03 PM
notice the surnames.......Rosenberg....Koch...

the Tea party movement is a Zionist op against Obama.

The goal of this neo-con Tea Party "movement" is not to balance the budget or cut taxes.......but to elect Sarah Palin so they can blow up Iran and Syria.

Our job is fight for control of the hearts and minds of the good people going to the Tea Parties

heavenlyboy34
12-25-2009, 01:01 PM
If these neocons hijack the tea party movement, this gives the freedom movement an opportunity to be even more innovative. Just find a different idea that noone else is using and go with that (not to mention use every opportunity to illustrate how they stole and perverted the concept). :cool:

LibertyEagle
12-25-2009, 01:22 PM
If these neocons hijack the tea party movement, this gives the freedom movement an opportunity to be even more innovative. Just find a different idea that noone else is using and go with that (not to mention use every opportunity to illustrate how they stole and perverted the concept). :cool:

I disagree strongly.

I think we do way too much criticizing what they are doing, instead of pitching our idea of what we think should be done. Again, we are following, instead of leading.

LibertyEagle
12-25-2009, 01:24 PM
Distance ourselves from the Armey's, Palins, Fox, bunch. Don't let another Reagan moment to happen again goddamnit.

Reagan SAID great things. In fact, in the beginning, Ron Paul was his largest supporter.

Annihilia
12-25-2009, 01:48 PM
The first Tea Party event I went to was my last (First one in Orlando, Spring 08).

It was straight awful. Nothing of substance was said and the speakers were dumb as rocks. The one person that had anything useful to say had most people tuning out or even booing (he said McCain would have been the same as Obama). Insane applause every time Palin was mentioned. Yay Republicans, boo Democrats, boo Obama. Nothing about the Fed, nothing about liberty. It was depressing.

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-25-2009, 01:58 PM
Reagan SAID great things. In fact, in the beginning, Ron Paul was his largest supporter.

Reagan threw the libertarian movement back for nearly 30 years. HE WAS A FAUX. I don't give a shit what he said, I only care about actions, and the actions tell the tale. Thats why you have to look at everyone and what they've done! It's easy talking the show, but it certainly takes some balls to walk it. All the first time candidates we have to vet thoroughly, and I think we have a ton of good freshman that can win in 2010.

Reagan was the worst thing to happen. He neutered the movement that was exploding.

angelatc
12-25-2009, 02:14 PM
Groups/people will always jump in to fill voids that we do not fill ourselves.

I'm not sure how to do it, but it seems to me that somehow we've got to get more into the proactive mode, rather than primarily in the reactive/defense mode, as we are in now.

That's exactly right. We don't have some divine political right. If we can't produce leaders, then somebody else will. That's the way of the world.

tonesforjonesbones
12-25-2009, 07:03 PM
What the hell has happened to this forum? I don't feel like this is a Ron Paul forum anymore. Why do you people not want the liberty movement to grow??? It's not exclusively yours ya know?
tones

Kludge
12-25-2009, 07:14 PM
What the hell has happened to this forum? I don't feel like this is a Ron Paul forum anymore. Why do you people not want the liberty movement to grow??? It's not exclusively yours ya know?
tones

Of course we want the liberty movement to grow, but this isn't our movement growing. The Kochs may be allies of liberty in what they're doing right now, but we aren't the same movement (or maybe we are and they're just dishonest). They can grow their side, we can grow our side. We don't have to roll over and submit to another faction.

heavenlyboy34
12-25-2009, 07:53 PM
Of course we want the liberty movement to grow, but this isn't our movement growing. The Kochs may be allies of liberty in what they're doing right now, but we aren't the same movement (or maybe we are and they're just dishonest). They can grow their side, we can grow our side. We don't have to roll over and submit to another faction.


wow! Kludge said something sensible that I agree with for once! :eek::)

cindy25
12-25-2009, 08:07 PM
the Republican base, and the Tea party is the Republican base, remains pro-war, pro-Israel.

Pants
12-25-2009, 09:15 PM
I agree and disagree. I can say I am not fond of Republicans stealing Libertarian ideals and using it for their own agenda.. HOWEVER, a traditional Republican and a Libertarian takes the same stand on many issues.. In my opinion I am looking at this as something very positive. . Republicans are returning back to their grass roots. The traditional values they lost the last dozen or so years ago is coming back..Coming back in a BIG way. Libertarians sort of lost their way as well. The last dozen or so years, rather than sticking to the main issues.. (ending spending, the importance of balanced budgets, ending big government, ending NWO, Ending taxation, getting rid of the fed).. The wierdos have taken over and keep pushing the legalization of Marijuana and other drugs, legalizing prostitution, keep pounding the Conspiracy of how Bush was behind 9-1-1, how both parties work for the same man, (whoever "The Man" is... the conspiracy theories and the names behind them change almost on a weekly basis). The more we pound on those "petty" issues the more Mainstream Media runs with this and digs the Libertarian party further into a hole..

I think its perfectly fine for Libertarians and Republicans to join together to appeal Liberalism, Socialism, or Obamaism. At this point in time we need one another. We may have disagreements and some philosophical issues with each other... but we have to stop looking at who wears the same color shirt and work together. It is for the good of the country not who gets credit for what.

I look at it as the Libertarian party is reforming the Republican party. There was a poll out last month that paired Obama with Ron Paul in the 2012 election.. Paul had 38% of the vote. That's 37 more percent more than what we had a little over a year ago.. That's progress, not failure. We just had a Democrat congressmen defect to a Republican the last few days.. That's progress. There is talk another Congressman will defect shortly.. Its working..

The only way we fail is if we sit and watch this country turn into a Socialist state and do nothing.. The Republicans WERE on a slow path to Socialism. They needed to have their clock cleaned. Unfortunately it was at Obama's expense.

No Republicans aren't our saving grace.. they appear to be doing their jobs now.. But can they talk the talk, and walk the walk if they are put back in power in 2010, and 2012?


the Republican base, and the Tea party is the Republican base, remains pro-war, pro-Israel.

cheapseats
12-25-2009, 09:36 PM
. . .The wierdos have taken over and keep pushing the legalization of Marijuana . . . The more we pound on those "petty" issues . . .

You are of the opinion that the blatantly unjust and hypocritical incarceration of non-violent Pot Smokers is a "petty" issue? That the fortunes squandered by the nation and the other fortunes amassed by Bad Guys in the process of capriciously criminalizing a class of people is a "petty" issue?

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-25-2009, 10:20 PM
I agree and disagree. I can say I am not fond of Republicans stealing Libertarian ideals and using it for their own agenda.. HOWEVER, a traditional Republican and a Libertarian takes the same stand on many issues.. In my opinion I am looking at this as something very positive. . Republicans are returning back to their grass roots. The traditional values they lost the last dozen or so years ago is coming back..Coming back in a BIG way. Libertarians sort of lost their way as well. The last dozen or so years, rather than sticking to the main issues.. (ending spending, the importance of balanced budgets, ending big government, ending NWO, Ending taxation, getting rid of the fed).. The wierdos have taken over and keep pushing the legalization of Marijuana and other drugs, legalizing prostitution, keep pounding the Conspiracy of how Bush was behind 9-1-1, how both parties work for the same man, (whoever "The Man" is... the conspiracy theories and the names behind them change almost on a weekly basis). The more we pound on those "petty" issues the more Mainstream Media runs with this and digs the Libertarian party further into a hole..

I think its perfectly fine for Libertarians and Republicans to join together to appeal Liberalism, Socialism, or Obamaism. At this point in time we need one another. We may have disagreements and some philosophical issues with each other... but we have to stop looking at who wears the same color shirt and work together. It is for the good of the country not who gets credit for what.

I look at it as the Libertarian party is reforming the Republican party. There was a poll out last month that paired Obama with Ron Paul in the 2012 election.. Paul had 38% of the vote. That's 37 more percent more than what we had a little over a year ago.. That's progress, not failure. We just had a Democrat congressmen defect to a Republican the last few days.. That's progress. There is talk another Congressman will defect shortly.. Its working..

The only way we fail is if we sit and watch this country turn into a Socialist state and do nothing.. The Republicans WERE on a slow path to Socialism. They needed to have their clock cleaned. Unfortunately it was at Obama's expense.

No Republicans aren't our saving grace.. they appear to be doing their jobs now.. But can they talk the talk, and walk the walk if they are put back in power in 2010, and 2012?

What Republican Party are you talking about? Slow path? Good lord, the GOP rushed us toward this day more than the Democrats did. Reagan and Bush Jr. spent more than any other President. Besides, we are all ready Socialist. The Government spending for GDP is about equivalent to European States.

I suppose a weirdo is someone who is against victimless crimes...Glad you support arbitrary power over a person. Not.

LibertyEagle
12-25-2009, 10:48 PM
the Republican base, and the Tea party is the Republican base, remains pro-war, pro-Israel.

Being pro-Israel and being pro-Israeli government, are two entirely different things. And for that matter, it's none of our business what the Israeli government does. We're supposed to mind our own business, remember? So, as long as we end foreign aid and stop fighting other people's wars, it's none of our business what they do, unless they attack us, or pose an imminent threat.

LibertyEagle
12-25-2009, 10:56 PM
What Republican Party are you talking about? Slow path? Good lord, the GOP rushed us toward this day more than the Democrats did. Reagan and Bush Jr. spent more than any other President. Besides, we are all ready Socialist. The Government spending for GDP is about equivalent to European States.

I suppose a weirdo is someone who is against victimless crimes...Glad you support arbitrary power over a person. Not.

Oh stop it. Stop trying to cause a huge divide between conservative Republicans and Libertarians. This movement is not owned by Libertarians. Isn't now and never was.

Pants had some good points. We all need to get our acts together and use some semblance of a workable strategy to succeed in our efforts.

South Park Fan
12-25-2009, 11:19 PM
Oh stop it. Stop trying to cause a huge divide between conservative Republicans and Libertarians. This movement is not owned by Libertarians. Isn't now and never was.

Pants had some good points. We all need to get our acts together and use some semblance of a workable strategy to succeed in our efforts.

Not to speak for AED, but it sounds like he was chastising Reagan & Bush (certainly not conservative Republicans) and the people that voted for them (who rightfully deserve to be chastised for compromising their principles).

t0rnado
12-25-2009, 11:55 PM
Bring signs that encourage the legalization of marijuana and other drugs and anti-war signs to the "Tea Parties".

LibertyEagle
12-25-2009, 11:59 PM
Not to speak for AED, but it sounds like he was chastising Reagan & Bush (certainly not conservative Republicans) and the people that voted for them (who rightfully deserve to be chastised for compromising their principles).

Ron Paul voted for Reagan the first time around. He was his biggest advocate.

Matthew Zak
12-26-2009, 12:12 AM
I think we need to stop looking at ANY of this from the perspective of a party member. Libertarianism is as useless as Conservatism or Liberalism in our fight. We need to set some standards, live those standards, and vote those standards into office.

CCTelander
12-26-2009, 12:12 AM
Oh stop it. Stop trying to cause a huge divide between conservative Republicans and Libertarians. This movement is not owned by Libertarians. Isn't now and never was.

Pants had some good points. We all need to get our acts together and use some semblance of a workable strategy to succeed in our efforts.

Christ LE! Is there ANY disagreement on principle that you DON'T interpret as an attempt to "divide the movement"? You're starting to sound like a broken record.

cindy25
12-26-2009, 12:18 AM
Being pro-Israel and being pro-Israeli government, are two entirely different things. And for that matter, it's none of our business what the Israeli government does. We're supposed to mind our own business, remember? So, as long as we end foreign aid and stop fighting other people's wars, it's none of our business what they do, unless they attack us, or pose an imminent threat.

try saying that all foreign aid should be ended, and by all I mean all, including that to Israel. they would lynch you at a Tea Party.

LibertyEagle
12-26-2009, 12:23 AM
Christ LE! Is there ANY disagreement on principle that you DON'T interpret as an attempt to "divide the movement"? You're starting to sound like a broken record.

lol. Well, at least I'm consistent. :p

Seriously, did you read what Pants wrote? It's only my opinion, but it seemed to me that he/she was suggesting we work together, as at least some of the conservative Republicans are starting to return to their libertarian-conservative roots. Of course, a whole lot of them are not, or are posers.

So, "what principle" are you referring to specifically? I ask, because I do not believe that we all have to agree on every, single thing in order to work together. Heck, a whole lot of us on this very forum disagree on many things. :)

LibertyEagle
12-26-2009, 12:23 AM
try saying that all foreign aid should be ended, and by all I mean all, including that to Israel. they would lynch you at a Tea Party.

Yeah, I know.


I think we need to stop looking at ANY of this from the perspective of a party member. Libertarianism is as useless as Conservatism or Liberalism in our fight. We need to set some standards, live those standards, and vote those standards into office.

Bingo.

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 12:36 AM
Ron Paul voted for Reagan the first time around. He was his biggest advocate.

I don't give a shit who voted for who. I only care about how they GOVERNED. Got it? Reagan was certainly no Howard Buffet.

LibertyEagle
12-26-2009, 12:54 AM
I don't give a shit who voted for who. I only care about how they GOVERNED. Got it? Reagan was certainly no Howard Buffet.

Yeah, I agree with you on that.

Austrian Econ Disciple
12-26-2009, 12:56 AM
Yeah, I agree with you on that.

:D Yay.

AuH20
12-26-2009, 01:04 AM
I see the same thread every 3 days. If you're pissed, do something about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad:

South Park Fan
12-26-2009, 01:13 AM
Ron Paul voted for Reagan the first time around. He was his biggest advocate.

A decision that Ron Paul would later regret, because as I said earlier, Reagan was hardly a conservative Republican.

Kludge
12-26-2009, 01:22 AM
I see the same thread every 3 days. If you're pissed, do something about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad:

YOU're the one with the angry face!

Bman
12-26-2009, 01:27 AM
We need to spam. Remember where the Tea Party movement started. Don't be fooled by the false prophets!

YouTube - Ron Paul: Tea Party 07 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKZmIzEMUN8)

Pants
12-26-2009, 10:11 AM
I am sorry if I offended people.. What I was trying to say is the media portrays the Libertarian party as if we are a bunch of burned out Pot Smoking hippies.. The drugs have made us paranoid and we all feed on Conspiracy theorys.. We want to smoke what we want, screw who we want, and tell the Government to f off.. In some ways we do.. But that's only a small part of what being a Libertarian is all about..

In a way I think that's how people like Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, and MSM smeared the Ron Paul campaign. Researched the people who donated money to the RP campaign.. Singled out all the deranged followers to smear the campaign. Obama and McCain probably had 2000 times more deranged followers. I asked this on the Sean Hannity forum.. The reply was McCain and Obama are mainstream candidates with 30+ million followers so there's bound to be a bad apple here and there.. I eventually got kicked off Hannity's forum..

What I mean to say is Bush and the Republicans the last 8 years were taking us on a slow road to Sociaism. In comparison to Obama, it is slower.

Reagan was not the perfect President. In some ways you would probably need to go back 10, 20 and 30 years before Reagan to find an old Fashioned Traditional Republican.

I often argue with Dems and try to tell them Bush was a Liberal. If he wasn't a Liberal then why hasn't Obama taken the "Failed" policies of Bush and swiftly reversed them? He can't because they fit perfecly into his Socialist agenda. Other than getting rid of the Color Code warning system to tell us what danger we are to a terrorist attack.. I can't think of one Bush policy or doctrine that was reversed since Obama took office. No point arguing with a Dem.. They are robots, and when they lose the debate they result to name calling, or try to insult your character.

klamath
12-26-2009, 02:45 PM
I have as much contempt for Libertarians as I have for neocons. I don't give give a shit whos taking over who or whos doing who.

CUnknown
12-26-2009, 03:01 PM
We do have to worry about the Tea Partyers becoming a tool of the establishment, but right now, I don't think that's so. For example, who do you think is supporting Rand Paul in Kentucky to raise him up 17 points from the last poll? My guess is that they are mostly Tea Party people, hearing the message.

The Tea Party people can be our friends, or they can be our enemies. It's all about who can get a message they can believe in out to them first. Honestly, I question the GOPs ability to do this. They are running scared right now, imo. The forces of liberty are on the march! We are the elite tip of the spear, fighting the battle long before the rank and file Tea Party folks even knew about it. But now, it seems like they're arriving in large numbers to help us fight (at least in Kentucky), and its a beautiful thing. :)

AutoDas
12-26-2009, 04:06 PM
I have as much contempt for Libertarians as I have for neocons. I don't give give a shit whos taking over who or whos doing who.

what does the bold part have to do with libertarianism?

klamath
12-26-2009, 06:41 PM
what does the bold part have to do with libertarianism?
The title of the thread maybe:rolleyes:

heavenlyboy34
12-26-2009, 06:55 PM
I have as much contempt for Libertarians as I have for neocons. I don't give give a shit whos taking over who or whos doing who.

Even RP? (a lifetime member of the LP) :eek:

Pants
12-26-2009, 08:43 PM
No party is going to be perfect. There are always going to be flaws and corruption within the party. As Jesus said "No Church is perfect"... No President is going to be perfect or any man is going to be perfect. (unless they are the Messiah.. And I don't mean Obama)..I might disagree with Dr. Paul on some issues.. But I know in my heart he is working in the best interest for ME.. NOT AIG, Bank of America, GM, or Chrysler.. In my opinion he is the ONLY one who is answering to me.. And has experience, years of service, and non-flip flopping voting record to back it up.. RP is my President.

Let the tea party movement march on.. Even if people are hearing 1/4th of the message, its more than what they got to hear the last 5 years. Ron Paul was the ONLY mainstream candidate who talked about the importance of fiscal responsibility, the falling dollar, National debt, High Taxes, two wars that remain to be endless money pits, and a Gold or Silver currency standard. He will eventually get the credit he deserves for starting the Revolution.

The only other mainstream candidate that came remotely close was Dennis Kucinich. I really liked Chuck Baldwin. I didn't know too much about Bob Barr, although I watched a little bit of his speeches. I couldn't find too much information about him. I have no opinion on Nader... I admire Nader running all these years, but I think I disagree with Nader a little too much.



Even RP? (a lifetime member of the LP) :eek: