Illegal Alien Kills American for Speaking English in the US!

[stu2002]

Brent Batten: Immokalee stabbing shows another side of immigration debate

By BRENT BATTEN
Posted December 21, 2009
Naples News

I swear we don’t plan this stuff out.

But no sooner than does a series of articles about the Collier County Sheriff’s Office program to deport troublesome illegal aliens conclude than an illegal alien is in the headlines, and not in a good way.

The sheriff’s program, as outlined in stories Sunday and Monday, targets illegal immigrants who run afoul of the law. Deputies, through extra training, are empowered to enforce federal laws and begin deportation proceedings as they see fit. In places without the program, local authorities have to rely on federal agents to undertake the deportation process against known illegal immigrants residing in their jails, a demand the feds are not always prepared to meet.

The program and the articles about it elicited the predictable responses from good-hearted people who see tragedy in the separation of families. They fret over the anxiety experienced by those who skirted the rules to find a better life in the United States yet are one traffic stop away from losing it.

Then along comes Mauricio Escalante. The 33-year-old illegal immigrant was arrested Saturday for stabbing to death a 17-year-old on the streets of Immokalee.

The teenager’s affront that set off the fatal confrontation — daring to speak English in America.


According to Sheriff’s Office reports, around 3 a.m. Saturday Charlie Guzman and some friends gathered at the laundry of an apartment complex on Colorado Avenue. Three others, including Escalante, were already there and the two groups began talking until a dispute erupted over the victim’s group speaking English, not Spanish.

Escalante went to a nearby apartment, got a knife, and fatally stabbed Guzman, according to reports.

So much for the notion that illegal immigrants are universally a hard-working, law abiding set committed to doing the jobs Americans won’t do, all while trying to assimilate.

While plenty of people in the community of illegal immigrants, a majority, no doubt, fit that description, there are bad actors in the group.

The bad actors are the ones targeted by the sheriff’s program. For proof of that, one need look no further than Escalante. A year ago, he wound up in jail because deputies found him so drunk he was deemed to be a threat to himself or others.

But being drunk out of your mind in public isn’t the sort of thing that gets you deported under the sheriff’s system.

“Until the murder, he didn’t have a criminal history with us,” Sheriff’s Office spokeswoman Karie Partington said.

In two years, about 2,200 illegal immigrants have been either deported or are awaiting deportation through the sheriff’s efforts. Among that many cases, there are bound to be a few where the triggering offenses seem minor or the hardship upon family members here legally seems great.

But there are hardships to be borne by turning a blind eye toward illegal immigrants among us.

Ask the family of Charlie Guzman.

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[RM918]

He could've just as easily pissed off a gangbanger for the crime of wearing his pants correctly.

[Dieseler]

Naw, It's not an invasion...
They're just here to cut your grass and pick your peppers Torch.
Just good hard working folk for the most part who can't seem to NOT break the first law they encounter when they illegally enter our country.
Hang that Motherfucker.

[torchbearer]

Naw, It's not an invasion...
They're just here to cut your grass and pick your peppers Torch.
Just good hard working folk for the most part who can't seem to NOT break the first law they encounter when they illegally enter our country.
Hang that Motherfucker.

how about I post some articles about citizens of this country killing each other. Maybe we deport you too since other citizens are killing each other.

.... you believe this is an example of all the immigrants we have here from mexico?

[torchbearer]

by the way- stu's post history is nothing but histeria over anyone non-white.
great company you keep.

[torchbearer]

and fyi- I pick my own peppers- the mexicans are picking everyone else's peppers.

[Dieseler]

how about I post some articles about citizens of this country killing each other. Maybe we deport you too since other citizens are killing each other.

Are you so fucking retarded that you believe this is an example of all the immigrants we have here from mexico?

Do what you like and while you're at it,
Come try it big boy.
I'll eat your ass for lunch.
You are a Bleeding Heart Liberal who cannot see the forest for the trees.

[torchbearer]

Do what you like and while you're at it,
Come try it big boy.
I'll eat your ass for lunch.
You are a Bleeding Heart Liberal who cannot see the forest for the trees.

statist call me an anarchist
anarchist call me a statist
and racist .... call me a liberal ....
I guess you have it all figured out. :rolleyes:

[Dieseler]

and fyi- I pick my own peppers- the mexicans are picking everyone else's peppers.

No you don't. You already admitted you have Illegal Immigrant, indentured servants driving tractors for you for $5.00 an hour in the other thread.

[torchbearer]

No you don't. You already admitted you have Illegal Immigrant, indentured servants driving tractors for you for $5.00 an hour in the other thread.

Um, they drive tractors for the farmers of Lone Pine. We don't have our farm anymore. They are still there- but we grow our own produce. Thank you.

[Dieseler]

statist call me an anarchist
anarchist call me a statist
and racist ... call me a liberal .
I guess you have it all figured out. :rolleyes:


You hire people for $3.00 to $5.00 an hour and put them up in shacks while calling me a racist for wanting to hang a fucking murderer?
Funny shit.

[torchbearer]

but yes, $5 an hour is the going rate. as a kid that is what I got paid also to work on the farm during the summers.
Kids don't want to work on the farms anymore, so they hire more mexicans. it isn't like they seek them out- the farmers hire whoever wants to work. I know you aren't really big on property rights and all- but the farmer can hire whoever he wants.
i know that must frustrate a tyrant- you know- to not have control over someone else's property.

[torchbearer]

You hire people for $3.00 to $5.00 an hour and put them up in shacks while calling me a racist for wanting to hang a fucking murderer?
Funny shit.

that is what the job is worth. maybe you are the liberal . how about we hire GM Union workers to grow your food. enjoy the $50 ears of corn.

[Dieseler]

Um, they drive tractors for the farmers of Lone Pine. We don't have our farm anymore. They are still there- but we grow our own produce. Thank you.

Yeah but that's all just fine with you.


Slave Labor, We Used To Do It but Now We Don't.
So.. It's OK if You Do...

[torchbearer]

Yeah but that's all just fine with you.


Slave Labor, We Used To Do It but Now We Don't.
So.. It's OK if You Do...

sorry- you don't have an argument. I can't really give you one because you have none.
funny- these mexicans come to us- we don't bring them here in chains.
they don't run-off, they don't complain. They work- which is more than what i can say for the kids today.
Why work- we got a printing press.

You might have a "slave" argument if we were shipping these people here to work- but that isn't the case. the come here- despite the danger- to make a better life for that family. yes- i know that really irks you because someone non-white actually might make a better future for their kid. But they are human- just the same as you.

[Dieseler]

but yes, $5 an hour is the going rate. as a kid that is what I got paid also to work on the farm during the summers.
:rolleyes:


Kids don't want to work on the farms anymore, so they hire more mexicans.

See there folks. Illegal Immigrants just took the place of kids in the Slave Labor Market.
Also bear in mind who said Mexicans first.
Notice, I said Illegal Immigrants as he will begin to use this tactic to call me a racist.


it isn't like they seek them out- the farmers hire whoever wants to work. I know you aren't really big on property rights and all- but the farmer can hire whoever he wants.
No, you don't know that. You are just slinging that out there to make the other readers think that I don't appreciate property rights and in order to make them assume that in some other discussion I may have contradicted myself.
See there ya go.
Same old tactic with you.
Do you want me to dig up some of your posts from THAT other thread?


i know that must frustrate a tyrant- you know- to not have control over someone else's property.
Like I said last night man.
You're a joke.

[torchbearer]

:rolleyes:

See there folks. Illegal Immigrants just took the place of kids in the Slave Labor Market.
Also bear in mind who said Mexicans first.
Notice, I said Illegal Immigrants as he will begin to use this tactic to call me a racist.

No, you don't know that. You are just slinging that out there to make the other readers think that I don't appreciate property rights and in order to make them assume that in some other discussion I may have contradicted myself.
See there ya go.
Same old tactic with you.
Do you want me to dig up some of your posts from THAT other thread?

Like I said last night man.
You're a joke.

um, you just said that you don't want these people here-
you don't want these farmers hiring these mexicans-
you want to use government force to prevent that transaction-
you don't support property rights.
sorry- i mean- you support property rights when it comes to your property.
but you have no problem telling others what to do with theirs.
You are the joke.

[andrewh817]

This article doesn't even mention the details of what was said between the two parties.... the problem is not illegal immigration, it's stupidity.

[Dieseler]

sorry- you don't have an argument. I can't really give you one because you have none.
Yes I do to.
Same argument I had from that OTHER thread and now I got your ass right back there where I want you.
You know the one you jumped from topic to topic in order to avoid the subject at hand.


funny- these mexicans come to us- we don't bring them here in chains.
they don't run-off, they don't complain. They work- which is more than what i can say for the kids today.
Why work- we got a printing press.
Like I said, Indentured Servitude. Thanks for admitting it with the WE Don't Bring portion of your statement, but we do hire them.


You might have a "slave" argument if we were shipping these people here to work- but that isn't the case. the come here- despite the danger- to make a better life for that family. yes- i know that really irks you because someone non-white actually might make a better future for their kid. But they are human- just the same as you.
I do have a Slave argument and that is exactly what you are doing to these people whether you chain them and drag them in or lure them with the promise of work and entrap them.
Yes they are Humans and when they cross that border I intend for them to do it legally and I intend for them to be treated as humans and obey the same fucking laws that are good for me and you.
Simple as that.

This is not a third world country.
Yet.

[Dieseler]

that is what the job is worth. maybe you are the liberal . how about we hire GM Union workers to grow your food. enjoy the $50 ears of corn.

That is absolutely preposterous.
To the moon if I don't get my way...

[torchbearer]

Yes I do to.
Same argument I had from that OtHER thread and now I got your ass right back there where I want you.
You know the one you jumped from topic to topic in order to avoid the subject at hand.


Like I said, Indentured Servitude. Thanks for admitting it with WE Don't Bring portion of your statement, but we do hire them.


I do have a Slave argument and that is exactly what you are doing to these people whether you chain them and drag them in or lure them with the promise of work and entrap them.
Yes they are Humans and when they cross that border I intend for them to do it legally and I intend for them to be treated as humans and obey the same fucking laws that are good for me and you.
Simple as that.


:rolleyes: <- that is all i can say about that.
we have some job openings if you like- i'm sure you can operate a tractor- i'll hook you up with some cane farmers. let me know of anyone else who is interested in traveling to louisiana this summer to fill these jobs.
its a lot easier for the farmers to hire domestic.

and of course, when no one domestically steps up to work these jobs. we can either not produce- or hire someone who will work for what the job is worth.
blame it on minimum wage- blame it on cost of living- but we don't have domestic demand for these jobs.
by the way- the whole slave thing really doesn't work. try something different.

regardless, brown skin people will keep coming here for work.
let your buddies know.

[Elm]

Does the original poster believe that such a person would be stable enough as to not commit such a crime over a minor issue in their nation of origin?

Does the original poster believe that it is an impossibility that a citizen of our nation could posses such a personality?

If either answer No then the actions cannot be attributed to their immigration status and immigration status bears no bearing on actualy safety concerns of United States citizens.

[BlackTerrel]

Is it really that hard to understand that there are good and bad people in every group? This guy deserves to be killed or put in jail for the rest of his life, and I hope that is what happens. But you really expect us to judge an entire group of people based on this one case?

Or do third generation white Americans never commit heinous crimes?

[Dieseler]

:rolleyes: <- that is all i can say about that.
Well you could at least frame the lie a little better if you wanted a genuine reply.

let me know of anyone else who is interested in traveling to louisiana this summer to fill these jobs.

Lmao.
American Citizens have to make a living year round.

its a lot easier for the farmers to hire domestic.

I doubt it at that rate.

and of course, when no one domestically steps up to work these jobs. we can either not produce- or hire someone who will work for what the job is worth
blame it on minimum wage- blame it on cost of living- but we don't have domestic demand for these jobs.
by the way- the whole slave thing really doesn't work. try something different.
We'll have to see how far this depression goes before we get the final answer on that.
As far as the Slave thing goes, if it quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

regardless, brown skin people will keep coming here for work.
let your buddies know.
We're going to have to wait and see on that one to although you are probably right as our government it seems has every intent to drive us into the ground, just as you and the rest of your cracker friends intend to enslave and take advantage of the weak.
That will not happen to me and mine as long as I breathe.

Hey, why don't you give us the breakdown on how these Illegal Immigrants make a living during the off season in Louisiana after the crops are in on a $5.00 an hour SEASONAL job.
You wouldn't admit to them possibly receiving some sort of Government assistance to keep the lights on and the grub coming in would you?
I've got another zinger for you when you get around that one, or rather when you skirt it with some bull shit.

[Dieseler]

Is it really that hard to understand that there are good and bad people in every group? This guy deserves to be killed or put in jail for the rest of his life, and I hope that is what happens. But you really expect us to judge an entire group of people based on this one case?

Or do third generation white Americans never commit heinous crimes?

I'll tell you like I told Torch.
This is not a racial debate and no matter how many times you say White, Black or Mexican it won't become one with me.
Illegal Immigrant is the term I used and this debate that I and Torch are taking part in pretty much could do without the race baiting.
That is if I can get him to discontinue the effort of using the tactic as well...
And yes it is carried over from a previous thread and yes I did over react with my original post but I did get him back where I wanted him so it did serve it's intended purpose.
Thanks.

[angelatc]

but yes, $5 an hour is the going rate. as a kid that is what I got paid also to work on the farm during the summers.


Economics fail.

[torchbearer]

Well you could at least frame the lie a little better if you wanted a genuine reply.

Lmao.
American Citizens have to make a living year round.

I doubt it at that rate.

We'll have to see how far this depression goes before we get the final answer on that.
As far as the Slave thing goes, if it quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

We're going to have to wait and see on that one to although you are probably right as our government it seems has every intent to drive us into the ground, just as you and the rest of your cracker friends intend to enslave and take advantage of the weak.

Hey, why don't you give us the breakdown on how these Illegal Immigrants make a living during the off season in Louisiana after the crops are in on a $5.00 an hour job.
You wouldn't admit to them possibly receiving some sort of Government assistance to keep the lights on and the grub coming in would you?
I've got another zinger for you when you get around that one, or rather when you skirt it with some bull shit.

they also tend the nurseries. we have work for someone who will do it for $5/hr.
we don't have work for someone who wants $10/hr.
a lot of the agro-business jobs aren't worth that much.

and no- you don't know anyone who will do their jobs- not now- not tomorrow- not next year- not anytime this decade.
I know- I've been on the farmers side of the hiring exchange. (i didn't hire- but i was witness to such events)
And it is easier to hire domestic because people here speak english. on the farm, we have to hire a "foreman" that speaks both english and spanish. he gets paid more obviously.

we'd rather hire local people- but farming isn't exactly a lucrative business. its a family tradition for most people.
we had to get out of it- cut our losses.
we still have cattle and catfish ponds, but all our produce, we consume ourselves now.
when the shit hits the fan- we are ok. hell, we have our own economy in lone pine.

[torchbearer]

Economics fail.

they have failed. free market with no minumum wage and a stable currency would allow local people to afford to work these jobs.

[BlackTerrel]

I'll tell you like I told Torch.
This is not a racial debate and no matter how many times you say White, Black or Mexican it won't become one with me.
Illegal Immigrant is the term I used and this debate that I and Torch are taking part in pretty much could do without the race baiting.
That is if I can get him to discontinue the effort of using the tactic as well...

Thanks.

Fine. How many illegal immigrants are in this country and how many of them kill people because they speak English? Show me two more examples.

How many legal Americans kill people for no reason?

Your argument has no logic.

EDIT: BTW I am totally fine with enforcing our border. I think any country has a right to control who comes into the country. I just don't buy this demonization of an entire group of people based on this one act.

[angelatc]

:rolleyes: <- that is all i can say about that.
we have some job openings if you like- i'm sure you can operate a tractor- i'll hook you up with some cane farmers. let me know of anyone else who is interested in traveling to louisiana this summer to fill these jobs.
its a lot easier for the farmers to hire domestic.



And how much in subsidies are those farmers getting, exactly?

Maybe those farmers should run a couple of ads in the Detroit papers if they desperately need help, instead of breaking the law.

And if they can't hire people at $5, then mayne it's because they should be paying more money. That's how labor markets work.

How sad to see a RPF defending the interests of the corporate farmers over the American workers.

[torchbearer]

And how much in subsidies are those farmers getting, exactly?

Maybe those farmers should run a couple of ads in the Detroit papers if they desperately need help, instead of breaking the law.

And if they can't hire people at $5, then mayne it's because they should be paying more money. That's how labor markets work.

How sad to see a RPF defending the interests of the corporate farmers over the American workers.

we never recieved any subsidies, but Trent Lott got a lot of them. Did you know Senator Lott was a farmer?
Well, he isn't. But he owns a shit load of farms that he helped put out of business and then bought up. He was the biggest recipient of government hand-outs.
We did it the honest way- and now we are out of farming.
We are the small family farms who can't make it if we have to pay GM Union workers.
Shame on your for schilling against the poor family farms. :rolleyes:

[Dieseler]

Fine. How many illegal immigrants are in this country and how many of them kill people because they speak English? Show me two more examples.

No one has any idea because they are undocumented.


How many legal Americans kill people for no reason?
You can do your own statistical analysis.


Your argument has no logic.
No one has any idea because they are undocumented.
That is a logical answer to your question.

EDIT: BTW I am totally fine with enforcing our border. I think any country has a right to control who comes into the country. I just don't buy this demonization of an entire group of people based on this one act.[/QUOTE]
We're on the same page then, cool.
I haven't demonized anyone.
Legal is legal.
What is good for me is good for another.

[angelatc]

they have failed. free market with no minumum wage and a stable currency would allow local people to afford to work these jobs.

Economics fail. We don't have a free market. We live in a Keynesian economy.

Maybe we should have open borders, but we don't. Those farmers are gaming the system by breaking the law.

Diluting the labor pool with illegal labor should be considered a form of treason.

[angelatc]

we never recieved any subsidies, but Trent Lott got a lot of them. Did you know Senator Lott was a farmer?
Well, he isn't. But he owns a shit load of farms that he helped put out of business and then bought up. He was the biggest recipient of government hand-outs.
We did it the honest way- and now we are out of farming.
We are the small family farms who can't make it if we have to pay GM Union workers.
Shame on your for schilling against the poor family farms. :rolleyes:

Using illegal labor is essentially subsidizing yourself. If Trent Lott can do it, it must be o.k. for the rest of us to do it - is that what you're saying?

And acknowledging that the wage for that job hasn't gone up in the past 10 years indicates that I am right. Illegal labor dilutes the labor market and harms the American worker.

[Dieseler]

we never recieved any subsidies, but Trent Lott got a lot of them. Did you know Senator Lott was a farmer?
Well, he isn't. But he owns a shit load of farms that he helped put out of business and then bought up. He was the biggest recipient of government hand-outs.
We did it the honest way- and now we are out of farming.
We are the small family farms who can't make it if we have to pay GM Union workers.
Shame on your for schilling against the poor family farms. :rolleyes:

And now you take the position of Victim after being criticized for the very thing you defended.
Strange man.

[andrewh817]

they have failed. free market with no minumum wage and a stable currency would allow local people to afford to work these jobs.

Exactly, when there's enough people out of work and desperate in this country almost anyone will work for whatever wage both parties agree to.

[torchbearer]

Economics fail. We don't have a free market. We live in a Keynesian economy.

Maybe we should have open borders, but we don't. Those farmers are gaming the system by breaking the law.

Diluting the labor pool with illegal labor should be considered a form of treason.

well, i guess we can import all our crops like we import everything else, because other countries produce it cheaper.
you have no fucking clue about the farming industry. without the cheap labor- it won't be produced here.
get a clue.

[torchbearer]

And now you take the position of Victim after being criticized for the very thing you defended.
Strange man.

you see this-> :rolleyes: that was me being sarcastic.
as in- her argument sounded as retarded as talking about the poor family farms.

[Dieseler]

well, i guess we can import all our crops like we import everything else, because other countries produce it cheaper.
you have no fucking clue about the farming industry. without the cheap labor- it won't be produced here.
get a clue.

Like I said in the other thread.
America has the ability to literally feed the entire World man and you know it.
Slave labor and indentured servitude is absolutely unnecessary in the equation.


you see this-> :rolleyes: that was me being sarcastic.
as in- her argument sounded as retarded as talking about the poor family farms.

Yeah I saw that.
Poor Plantation Owner.
If I can't have me slaves I can't operates and now I can go cry for you.
I'm not really going to cry.

[angelatc]

we never recieved any subsidies, but Trent Lott got a lot of them. Did you know Senator Lott was a farmer?
Well, he isn't. But he owns a shit load of farms that he helped put out of business and then bought up. He was the biggest recipient of government hand-outs.
We did it the honest way- and now we are out of farming.
We are the small family farms who can't make it if we have to pay GM Union workers.
Shame on your for schilling against the poor family farms. :rolleyes:

My extended owned one of the biggest tomato farms in the country until he died, and he always made sure to adhere to the immigration laws. My cousins all worked there during the summers, including my female cousin who spent her time verifying green card status.

So cry me a river. People who cheat are gaming the system. People who hire illegal aliens are nothing but greedy cheats, too lazy to invest in innovation.

[torchbearer]

My extended owned one of the biggest tomato farms in the country until he died, and he always made sure to adhere to the immigration laws. My cousins all worked there during the summers, including my female cousin who spent her time verifying green card status.

So cry me a river. People who cheat are gaming the system. People who hire illegal aliens are nothing but greedy cheats, too lazy to invest in innovation.

yeah ok. then we import our crops or create high tariffs to raise the cost of food.
your choice.
have fun in your interventionist economic hell.

or, we can wait until everyone here is as poor as a mexican, then we can hire you to produce the crops.

[angelatc]

well, i guess we can import all our crops like we import everything else, because other countries produce it cheaper.
you have no fucking clue about the farming industry. without the cheap labor- it won't be produced here.
get a clue.

I've got your clue right here.

Apparently you have no clue about how technology develops. It won't unless costs rise to the point that makes it practical.

Illegal workers are illegal workers. People who hire them hurt America ito benefit their own greedy self-interests.

[Dieseler]

How are these seasonal workers going to cope with inflation at the rate of $5.00 an hour?
I already know the answer to this same as I do the question as to what they do for income in the off season.

[angelatc]

yeah ok. then we import our crops or create high tariffs to raise the cost of food.
your choice.
have fun in your interventionist economic hell.

or, we can wait until everyone here is as poor as a mexican, then we can hire you to produce the crops.

Keep importing labor, and we soon will be as poor as the Mexicans. Adding workers to the labor pool has the exact same effect as adding dollars to circulation. It drives the value down.

At least tariffs are constitutional.

[torchbearer]

I've got your clue right here.

Apparently you have no clue about how technology develops. It won't unless costs rise to the point that makes it practical.

Illegal workers are illegal workers. People who hire them hurt America ito benefit their own greedy self-interests.

who sounds like a liberal retard now?
greedy self-interest? you mean keeping your family fed and your farming business afloat in a market filled with cheap crops?
I know- those evil farmers are just making millions off of those poor mexicans. :rolleyes:

You don't enjoy the cheap food products at all- i bet you demand you grocer to charge more for your produce. :rolleyes:

the more you people talk- the worse your arguments get.

please- keep going. this is getting better and better.

[torchbearer]

How are these seasonal workers going to cope with inflation at the rate of $5.00 an hour?
I already know the answer to this same as I do the question as to what they do for income in the off season.

If food prices go up, farmers can pay more. that is how they keep up.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

I've got your clue right here.

Apparently you have no clue about how technology develops. It won't unless costs rise to the point that makes it practical.

Illegal workers are illegal workers. People who hire them hurt America ito benefit their own greedy self-interests.

Tax-resisters are tax-resisters. People who tax resist hurt America to benefit their own greedy self-interests.

[angelatc]

How are these seasonal workers going to cope with inflation at the rate of $5.00 an hour?
I already know the answer to this same as I do the question as to what they do for income in the off season.

They go into construction.

That's why the average wage of construction workers fell like a rock while the industry as a whole was booming, circumventing the laws of demand vs supply that would have applied if our government wasn't intent on selling off the middle class a little at a time.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

They go into construction.

That's why the average wage of construction workers fell like a rock while the industry as a whole was booming, circumventing the laws of demand vs supply that would have applied if our government wasn't intent on selling off the middle class a little at a time.

You do know that Say's law applies to labor also correct? :rolleyes:

[torchbearer]

They go into construction.

That's why the average wage of construction workers fell like a rock while the industry as a whole was booming, circumventing the laws of demand vs supply that would have applied if our government wasn't intent on selling off the middle class a little at a time.

no mexicans doing construction here.

your avatar fits. I expect to hear you say- Dey tok R jebs!

[Dieseler]

If food prices go up, farmers can pay more. that is how they keep up.

Not if they go up due to inflation.
I'm sure increases in slave labor pay will be the last thing to go up right behind the Average American Citizens pay.
Right?
Yeah, that's right.
I don't see anyone getting raises due to inflation in a depression.
Another Economics Fail I'm afraid.

[angelatc]

who sounds like a liberal retard now?
greedy self-interest? you mean keeping your family fed and your farming business afloat in a market filled with cheap crops? I know- those evil farmers are just making millions off of those poor mexicans. :rolleyes:You don't enjoy the cheap food products at all- i bet you demand you grocer to charge more for your produce. :rolleyes: the more you people talk- the worse your arguments get.

please- keep going. this is getting better and better.

If the American farmer can't compete legally, then he shouldn't compete. I have no soft-spot for them, although I am fully aware that they've awarded themselves hero status.

And my uncle literally made millions off legal workers, so its really a no-brainer to assume the farmers hiring illegals are making even more. It's the only reason to hire them, really.

[Dieseler]

They go into construction.

That's why the average wage of construction workers fell like a rock while the industry as a whole was booming, circumventing the laws of demand vs supply that would have applied if our government wasn't intent on selling off the middle class a little at a time.

Or they go on Welfare, Public Housing and Food stamps which as Torch said, "There ain't no construction goin' on round these parts," and
just before he attacked your avatar.
Our arguments are very sound Torch.
You are flailing in the wind.

Really? The whole coast of Louisiana is still being rebuilt in the aftermath of Katrina, and none of those workers are illegal immigrants?

Or am I supposed to believe that those who were willing to travel from Mexico to your neck of the Bayou simply won't go any farther?
Another excellent point.
Not to mention, Mississippi, Alabama and Florida.
No, Americans won't be doing any of that work cause the government makes it to hard and expensive to hire them legally to do it.

[torchbearer]

Not if they go up due to inflation.
I'm sure increases in slave labor pay will be the last thing to go up right behind the Average American Citizens pay.
Right?
Yeah, that's right.
I don't see anyone getting raises due to inflation in a depression.
Another Economics Fail I'm afraid.

if food prices aren't going up, there is no inflation. there is no need to raise wages.
if food prices are going up, farmers are getting paid more, they have to pay a living wage, or even the mexicans wouldn't work for them.
it really is that simple.
these people aren't forced to be here. they want to be here. the pay must be right- if it wasn't- they wouldn't bother.

[angelatc]

no mexicans doing construction here.



Really? The whole coast of Louisiana is still being rebuilt in the aftermath of Katrina, and none of those workers are illegal immigrants?

Or am I supposed to believe that those who were willing to travel from Mexico to your neck of the Bayou simply won't go any farther?

[Dieseler]

if food prices aren't going up, there is no inflation. there is no need to raise wages.
if food prices are going up, farmers are getting paid more, they have to pay a living wage, or even the mexicans wouldn't work for them.
it really is that simple.
these people aren't forced to be here. they want to be here. the pay must be right- if it wasn't- they wouldn't bother.

Well of course they do, see the post above this one of yours I just quoted.
Who pays for that?
It damn sure ain't them farmers you love.

[torchbearer]

If the American farmer can't compete legally, then he shouldn't compete. I have no soft-spot for them, although I am fully aware that they've awarded themselves hero status.

And my uncle literally made millions off legal workers, so its really a no-brainer to assume the farmers hiring illegals are making even more. It's the only reason to hire them, really.

like i said- your way-
we have one more thing we import- food.
what is left for us to produce?

so we import everything- where will our wealth come from? no where.
and- you will have other countries controlling our food supply.

farming isn't an easy business. you can't learn it from a book. it is skills passed down from one human to the next.
if you elimate farming from the u.s. it will require re-education at high cost and time to get it started again after we have failed financially from importing everything we consume.

you have a brilliant mind- why do you waste it hating on immigrants?
they fill a role in our society- they create wealth in our society.

[torchbearer]

Really? The whole coast of Louisiana is still being rebuilt in the aftermath of Katrina, and none of those workers are illegal immigrants?

Or am I supposed to believe that those who were willing to travel from Mexico to your neck of the Bayou simply won't go any farther?

vietnamese provide cheap labor in the new orleans region.

[torchbearer]

Well of course they do, see the post above this one of yours I just quoted.
Who pays for that?
It damn sure ain't them farmers you love.

who pays for what?

[LibertyEagle]

if food prices aren't going up, there is no inflation. there is no need to raise wages.
if food prices are going up, farmers are getting paid more, they have to pay a living wage, or even the mexicans wouldn't work for them.
it really is that simple.
these people aren't forced to be here. they want to be here. the pay must be right- if it wasn't- they wouldn't bother.

Actually, they only need be paid more than they would be in Mexico. Living wage or not.

[angelatc]

If food prices aren't going up, there is no inflation. there is no need to raise wages.


Logic fail.

[torchbearer]

Logic fail.

for you. yes.

[torchbearer]

let me put it this way- i have my own source of food.
the rest of you motherfuckers can starve to death. i really don't care.
your hatred of brown people would have you crush what is left of agriculture in this country. fine.
farmers can produce their own food. your garden won't keep your family fed year round.
let's wall ourselves in- import everything until we are broke and can't borrow anymore.
then when we are all poor, then we can farm again without having brown people do it for us.

[Dieseler]

vietnamese provide cheap labor in the new orleans region.
Vietnamese don't walk across our borders illegally.
Keyword is Illegal Immigration.


who pays for what?
Welfare, Food stamps, Housing Subsidies... In the off season, that is if you keep these people year round.
You do that right?
Or do they get sent on their way with their pittance?
Slaves were even treated better than that.
Don't tell me it's worse than Slavery man.
That will really piss me off.

[torchbearer]

Vietnamese don't walk across our borders illegally.
Keyword is Illegal Immigration.


Welfare, Food stamps, Housing Subsidies... In the off season, that is if you keep these people year round.
You do that right?
Or do they get sent on their way with their pittance?
Slaves were even treated better than that.
Don't tell me it's worse than Slavery man.
That will really piss me off.

these people are provided housing by the farmers. you really don't have a clue how this works do you?

[Dieseler]

let me put it this way- i have my own source of food.
the rest of you motherfuckers can starve to death. i really don't care.
your hatred of brown people would have you crush what is left of agriculture in this country. fine.
farmers can produce their own food. your garden won't kept your family fed year round.
let's wall ourselves in- import everything until we are broke and can't borrow anymore.
then when we are all poor, then we can farm again without having brown people do it for us.

Bahahaha, Strawman.
Racist accusations lolz.
No.
Lets trade fairly with all Nations including and mainly pertaining to their labor and immigration laws.


these people are provided housing by the farmers. you really don't have a clue how this works do you?
No.
I've never been an Indentured servant.
Tell us how it goes man.

[torchbearer]

Bahahaha, Strawman.
Racist accusations lolz.
No.
Lets trade fairly with all Nations including and mainly pertaining to their labor and immigration laws.

:rolleyes: when you import everything- you will become very poor. enjoy your poverty.
either you accept the fact that some jobs are worth $5/hr or you accept the fact that you will have to import your food.
farmers here cannot compete on the global market paying union workers to tend the field. you can't have it both ways.

[torchbearer]

Bahahaha, Strawman.
Racist accusations lolz.
No.
Lets trade fairly with all Nations including and mainly pertaining to their labor and immigration laws.


No.
I've never been an Indentured servant.
Tell us how it goes man.

my ancestors were indentured servants- let me tell you how it goes.

you voluntarily make a work contract that states a wage and time limit to perform a task.
in my ancestor's example- they came from belgium.
they paid for their passage here with their labor. as indentured servants.
after being here for 4 years- they became share croppers.
they were provided housing and food. things necesary to keep labor healthy.

after the first generation, they had enough saved from their sharecropping to start buying their own land. they started farming for themselves.

this is how immigrants make it here.
you really didn't finish high school did you? that wasn't a joke after all?

[Dieseler]

:rolleyes: when you import everything- you will become very poor. enjoy your poverty.
either you except the fact that some jobs are worth $5/hr or you except the fact that you will have to import your food.
farmers here cannot compete on the global market paying union workers to tend the field. you can't have it both ways.

Right.
Especially when your main import becomes Slave labor while your citizens without a job fall into poverty because employers prefer the imported slave labor.
I don't think Unions are necessary.
Obama does though and he is really the guy you need to be worried about.
I just want a fair playing field and to see the law followed as it is.

[torchbearer]

Right.
Especially when your main import becomes Slave labor while your citizens without a job fall into poverty because employers prefer the imported slave labor.
I don't think Unions are necessary.
Obama does though and he is really the guy you need to be worried about.
I just want a fair playing field and to see the law followed as it is.

like i said- you are welcome to come work these jobs. i'm serious. i'll make the calls. Hell, if you know anyone else who wants these jobs, send them my way.
The whole slave thing really is getting old. I told you these jobs are worth very little.
You sound more like a marxist- all people should be paid high wages.
well, not every job is worth a lot, but every job needs to be done. especially when it comes to food produce.
so either we produce it here with cheap labor- or someone else in another country produces it with cheap labor. your choice.

[Dieseler]

my ancestors were indentured servants- let me tell you how it goes.

you voluntarily make a work contract that states a wage and time limit to perform a task.
OK.

in my ancestor's example- they came from belgium.
they paid for their passage here with their labor. as indentured servants.
after being here for 4 years- they became share croppers.
Maybe slipping from the truth a little now.

they were provided housing and food. things necesary to keep labor healthy.
In todays terminology, drop them off at the emergency room if they cut their feet off.


after the first generation, they had enough saved from their sharecropping to start buying their own land. they started farming for themselves.
this is how immigrants make it here.
See, that's where the real lies begin.
How many of these Illegal Immigrants are winning their farms like this lol?
Your a fucking joke man.

you really didn't finish high school did you? that wasn't a joke after all?
No, I didn't.
I wouldn't lie about it and that itself makes me more honest than you.
Sad thing though really is that no one who reads this thread is going to believe the shit your slinging here and that only hurts You.

[Dieseler]

like i said- you are welcome to come work these jobs. i'm serious. i'll make the calls. Hell, if you know anyone else who wants these jobs, send them my way.
The whole slave thing really is getting old. I told you these jobs are worth very little.
You sound more like a marxist- all people should be paid high wages.
well, not every job is worth a lot, but every job needs to be done. especially when it comes to food produce.
so either we produce it here with cheap labor- or someone else in another country produces it with cheap labor. your choice.

I have a job man.
Lmao.
My job is year round, I can't afford to be an indentured servant as I have bills to pay.
How do you sleep at night?
Nothing Marxist at all about wanting the immigration laws to be enforced.
Do they call you over to build all the Scarecrows in Pine City?
You sure build a damn good straw man.
You are pwnt again.
Front page of General Politics this time.

[angelatc]

like i said- you are welcome to come work these jobs. i'm serious. i'll make the calls. Hell, if you know anyone else who wants these jobs, send them my way.

If the wages are too low to attract workers, wages are supposed to rise. That's how the damned system is supposed to work.

But hey - McDonalds thanks you for your commitment to keeping food prices as low as possible. I mean, what would happen to us if there wasn't a fast food operation on every corner? What horrors would we endure if we didn't have $1 menus at those places?

So, now we know that it's ok to do illegal things to make a buck, even if it undermines legal workers. Obviously everybody deserves to stay in business, even if they can't afford to do so legally.

And when all these illegals get amnesty, and therefore are added onto the social security rolls, despite never paying a dime into the system, that's all ok, because some millionaire in Louisiana didn't have to sell his farmland to somebody who wanted to do something more profitable with the land.

[angelatc]

No, I didn't.
I wouldn't lie about it and that itself makes me more honest than you.
Sad thing though really is that no one who reads this thread is going to believe the shit your slinging here and that only hurts You.

It's ok. I went through college and IMHO you're making a lot more sense than he is.

He is making a great case for how a free market economy should work, but can't bring himself to admit that since we aren't a free market, there are negative economic consequences to importing a surplus of labor.

IIRC, he's a "let's see how fast we can topple it" guy, so driving wages into the dirt might be one of his economic goals.

I have to go, so if he trashes my avatar again kick his ass! :D

[torchbearer]

we can get our sugar from venezuela. they are our main competitor for sugar.
send your money to Chavez.

[Dieseler]

we can get our sugar from venezuela. they are our main competitor for sugar.
send your money to Chavez.

We can get it from Brazil to.
Whats your point?

[torchbearer]

If the wages are too low to attract workers, wages are supposed to rise. That's how the damned system is supposed to work.

But hey - McDonalds thanks you for your commitment to keeping food prices as low as possible. I mean, what would happen to us if there wasn't a fast food operation on every corner? What horrors would we endure if we didn't have $1 menus at those places?

So, now we know that it's ok to do illegal things to make a buck, even if it undermines legal workers. Obviously everybody deserves to stay in business, even if they can't afford to do so legally.

And when all these illegals get amnesty, and therefore are added onto the social security rolls, despite never paying a dime into the system, that's all ok, because some millionaire in Louisiana didn't have to sell his farmland to somebody who wanted to do something more profitable with the land.

like i said- ask your grocer to charge you more for your produce. i'm sure you've already done this because you want american's to have farming jobs. :rolleyes:

[torchbearer]

We can get it from Brazil to.
Whats your point?

if you import everything you consume you will become poor.
at that point, you will have more people willing to work for less because their standards of living were taking from them be the outflow of wealth.
if you really think americans working farm jobs are that important. please import all your crops.

or you could pay more for your food. your choice.

[Dieseler]

It's ok. I went through college and IMHO you're making a lot more sense than he is.

He is making a great case for how a free market economy should work, but can't bring himself to admit that since we aren't a free market, there are negative economic consequences to importing a surplus of labor.

IIRC, he's a "let's see how fast we can topple it" guy, so driving wages into the dirt might be one of his economic goals.

I have to go, so if he trashes my avatar again kick his ass! :D

Thanks Angela.
I'm sure he'll continue as far as he wants with the trash talk as its about all he has to work with in this debate now.
Merry Christmas.
You to Torch.
Merry Christmas.

[torchbearer]

the only way to have high waged farming jobs is to create tarriffs and raise food prices, otherwise we two other options- cheap labor on our own farms, or importing from people who have cheap labor on their farms.

[torchbearer]

oh- and merry christmas!
i gotta run.

[Dieseler]

if you import everything you consume you will become poor.
at that point, you will have more people willing to work for less because their standards of living were taking from them be the outflow of wealth.
if you really think americans working farm jobs are that important. please import all your crops.

or you could pay more for your food. your choice.

So the answer is to import ALL of the labor?
I gotta go man, just got a call about something Christmas related..
I shall return though, probably a couple of hours to resume the fight lol.

[tremendoustie]

I'm with torch.

If one person wants to hire another person who happens to be from another country, it's none of my business.

And merry christmas :)

[torchbearer]

So the answer is to import ALL of the labor?
I gotta go man, just got a call about something Christmas related..
I shall return though, probably a couple of hours to resume the fight lol.

talking about agriculture- yes, we should hire cheap labor. the price of food on the open market makes it so.
we can either import cheap food from cheap labor countries or produce cheap food with cheap labor in our country.
if we produce the cheap food, the wealth comes to us. if we import the cheap food- the wealth goes elsewhere.

[Dieseler]

I'm with torch.

If one person wants to hire another person who happens to be from another country, it's none of my business.

And merry christmas :)

In that regard I am as well... As long as it is legal and not to the detriment of other American businessmen who abide by the law.
Fair is fair.
Merry Christmas to you as well and a Happy new Year.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

In that regard I am as well... As long as it is legal and not to the detriment of other American businessmen who abide by the law.
Fair is fair.
Merry Christmas to you as well and a Happy new Year.

The law is fucking subjective and immoral. Congrats to the businessman who DONT follow the law.

[torchbearer]

I'd like to add one last remark in regards to those people who use the constitution as a reason farmers can't have mexican workers.
the constitution was written to restrain government, not the people.
if the government is telling us who we can hire and from where- it is unconstitutional.
the only authority the constitution grants is that of the naturalization process.

[Dieseler]

The law is fucking subjective and immoral. Congrats to the businessman who DONT follow the law.

Mudhuts and mudpies.
That's what you're gonna get.
Carry on and Merry Christmas to you as well.

[Dieseler]

I'd like to add one last remark in regards to those people who use the constitution as a reason farmers can't have mexican workers.
the constitution was written to restrain government, not the people.
if the government is telling us who we can hire and from where- it is unconstitutional.
the only authority the constitution grants is that of the naturalization process.

The correct term is Illegal Immigrants.
You have no idea where an undocumented worker is from, why label them all Mexican?

[torchbearer]

The correct term is Illegal Immigrants.

to us, they look all the same, humans.
any abled body of sound minds is free to work for whoever they want. the constitution doesn't restrict this.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Mudhuts and mudpies.
That's what you're gonna get.
Carry on and Merry Christmas to you as well.

I don't advocate Lincoln-esque policy and I certainly don't advocate any positions that destroy private property. Seems you do.

Let me ask you. Does your ideal society have immigration control? Yes or no.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

The correct term is Illegal Immigrants.
You have no idea where an undocumented worker is from, why label them all Mexican?

Isn't it amazing you cheer so blindly for unlimited Government. When a Government can tell you, who or who not you can hire on your own private property, and then compels everyone to have a document so you can even get a job thats one large ass Government, wouldn't you say? Imagine such a Government so powerful they can do that! I wonder what else they can do!

[LibertyEagle]

I'd like to add one last remark in regards to those people who use the constitution as a reason farmers can't have mexican workers.
the constitution was written to restrain government, not the people.
if the government is telling us who we can hire and from where- it is unconstitutional.
the only authority the constitution grants is that of the naturalization process.

Torch, we've always had worker Visas and the like. Mexicans on such visas have come into our country for a long time during harvest time. There's nothing wrong with that. In fact, it is a good thing.

But, that's very different than hoardes of illegal aliens coming into our country, signing up for whatever welfare they can get, putting their children in our schools and just staying.

We simply cannot stay on this course we're on. Our schools and hospitals are overwhelmed with illegal aliens. We have people here who have been taught by their own government that the southwest belongs to Mexico (La Reconquista) and they're doing their best to take it. And now, our government wants to give them amnesty. Assuming we even wanted them, this is WAY too fast a rate to assimilate them, Torch. Heck, our own children are not being taught the principles upon which this country was founded. How are we going to teach this hoard of illegal aliens? If they do not understand though, they will simply vote for what they are accustomed to with their own government. If we have ANY hope at all at taking back our country through peaceful means, we simply cannot allow this.

This is being promoted and allowed for a reason. The same reason why Americans have been pushed for years to abort their children and why now, our government is telling us that we must allow hoardes of illegal aliens into our country, because we do not have enough young people. Doesn't this strike anyone as odd, besides me?

[torchbearer]

Torch, we've always had worker Visas and the like. Mexicans on such visas have come into our country for a long time during harvest time. There's nothing wrong with that. In fact, it is a good thing.

But, that's very different than hoardes of illegal aliens coming into our country, signing up for whatever welfare they can get, putting their children in our schools and just staying.

We simply cannot stay on this course we're on. Our schools and hospitals are overwhelmed with illegal aliens. We have people here who have been taught by their own government that the southwest belongs to Mexico (La Reconquista) and they're doing their best to take it. And now, our government wants to give them amnesty.

This is being promoted and allowed for a reason. The same reason why Americans have been pushed for years to abort their children and why now, our government is telling us that we must allow hoardes of illegal aliens into our country, because we do not have enough young people. Doesn't this strike anyone as odd, besides me?

then attack the welfare state, not the immigrants.
the welfare state is the problem, not the people coming here to produce on the low wage jobs.
this country was invaded by immigrants a long time ago- i'm glad it was or I wouldn't be here.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Torch, we've always had worker Visas and the like. Mexicans on such visas have come into our country for a long time during harvest time. There's nothing wrong with that. In fact, it is a good thing.

But, that's very different than hoardes of illegal aliens coming into our country, signing up for whatever welfare they can get, putting their children in our schools and just staying.

We simply cannot stay on this course we're on. Our schools and hospitals are overwhelmed with illegal aliens. We have people here who have been taught by their own government that the southwest belongs to Mexico (La Reconquista) and they're doing their best to take it. And now, our government wants to give them amnesty.

This is being promoted and allowed for a reason. The same reason why Americans have been pushed for years to abort their children and why now, our government is telling us that we must allow hoardes of illegal aliens into our country, because we do not have enough young people. Doesn't this strike anyone as odd, besides me?

I agree. We have to become abolitionists, but not in a destructive manner, that is, not to pass open border until the welfare state is abolished. Some would argue, that the hastening of the destruction of the country would be far better, akin to the USSR. On that point I don't know which way I lean. It is a valid arguement however.

[LibertyEagle]

I agree. We have to become abolitionists, but not in a destructive manner, that is, not to pass open border until the welfare state is abolished. Some would argue, that the hastening of the destruction of the country would be far better, akin to the USSR. On that point I don't know which way I lean. It is a valid arguement however.

Communists and traitors would argue that. No one else.

[Dieseler]

Isn't it amazing you cheer so blindly for unlimited Government. When a Government can tell you, who or who not you can hire on your own private property, and then compels everyone to have a document so you can even get a job thats one large ass Government, wouldn't you say? Imagine such a Government so powerful they can do that! I wonder what else they can do!

When you can find a way to teleport these people to YOUR property and house them, feed them and clothe them without affecting the rest of us, then you will have an argument.
Lol.
Everything that leads up to your property does not belong to you.

[Elm]

End our welfare state and the only people who will come here will be the ones willing to work hard to stay.

Problem solved.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Communists and traitors would argue that. No one else.

Really? Seems like the Balkans are doing far better off now, than they were....I imagine mass secession if we have a USSR style collapse. Wouldn't you argue that is beneficial and brings about the abolition of the programs we are trying to to get rid of? I certainly would love a free and independant NH, TX, AK, MT, WY, every state!

[LibertyEagle]

Really? Seems like the Balkans are doing far better off now, than they were....I imagine mass secession if we have a USSR style collapse. Wouldn't you argue that is beneficial and brings about the abolition of the programs we are trying to to get rid of? I certainly would love a free and independant NH, TX, AK, MT, WY, every state!

I think you are naive; that is what I think.

The globalists have been talking about balkanizing our country as a means to take it down and roll it into world government, for a very long time.

You seem to think that if our government fell, that we would be left to our own devices to rebuild our country and I think it is naive to believe that we would be allowed to do that.

[torchbearer]

ok, i really have to go now.
merry christmas.
i am very thankful to have people with thick enough skins to put up with my shit.
:)

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

I think you are naive; that is what I think.

The globalists have been talking about balkanizing our country as a means to take it down and roll it into world government, for a very long time.

You seem to think that if our government fell, that we would be left to our own devices to rebuild our country and I think it is naive to believe that we would be allowed to do that.

I believe decentralization is better than centralization. How you believe that decentralization fits into TPTB plans to me is ludicrous. How is 50 independant states remotely fit into their plan? It's much easier afterall to take over one State than 50.

If our Government fell I'd imagine many states would seceede. I welcome mass secession.

Would you argue that the Balkan States are worst off now, than they were 20 years ago?

[Elm]

I believe decentralization is better than centralization. How you believe that decentralization fits into TPTB plans to me is ludicrous. How is 50 independant states remotely fit into their plan? It's much easier afterall to take over one State than 50.

If our Government fell I'd imagine many states would seceede. I welcome mass secession.

Would you argue that the Balkan States are worst off now, than they were 20 years ago?

We would be invaded by a congolmerate of nations (likely the UN) for our own good. Blue helmets would be our police and noblemen as we live like savages and they feel good about themselves for helping the savage out.

That is what would happen.

[Dieseler]

I don't advocate Lincoln-esque policy and I certainly don't advocate any positions that destroy private property. Seems you do.

I don't advocate Lincoln-esque policy and I certainly don't advocate any positions that destroy private property.
I'm from Alabama for Gods sake and that's pretty much an insult to me. I doubt your going to find many average Americans (anywhere) that would be on the band wagon of Balkanization of their country or as you would like to put it, secession over not being allowed to hire Illegal Immigrants to work on their private properties as most of them are just trying to keep their heads above water and make payments on those properties.
I see this more of a beef that corporatist would take to ensure their future profits not only at the expense of the American people but also at the expense of the poor (Immigrant, Illegal or not) that they take advantage of.
Not sure where you get off with the line of argument you are taking. Either way, I'm not buying it and I'd be careful trying to sell it on the streets these days.

Let me ask you. Does your ideal society have immigration control? Yes or no.

Yes, laws are already in place.
We just need to follow and enforce them.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

We would be invaded by a congolmerate of nations (likely the UN) for our own good. Blue helmets would be our police and noblemen as we live like savages and they feel good about themselves for helping the savage out.

That is what would happen.

I find this to be lacking in historical precedent. Not saying it wouldn't happen, but I severely doubt it. Besides, after 1,000 deaths they'd likely pull out of whatever independant state they moved into.

We're talking USSR failure here. Neither the Federal Government could stop it, or internationalists (UN/NATO/etc.).

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

I don't advocate Lincoln-esque policy and I certainly don't advocate any positions that destroy private property.
I'm from Alabama for Gods sake and that's pretty much an insult to me. I doubt your going to find many average Americans (anywhere) that would be on the band wagon of Balkanization of their country or as you would like to put it, secession over not being allowed to hire Illegal Immigrants to work on their private properties as most of them are just trying to keep their heads above water and make payments on those properties.
I see this more of a beef that corporatist would take to ensure their future profits not only at the expense of the American people but also at the expense of the poor (Immigrant, Illegal or not) that they take advantage of.
Not sure where you get off with the line of argument you are taking. Either way, I'm not buying it and I'd be careful trying to sell it on the streets these days.


Yes, laws are already in place.
We just need to follow and enforce them.

Yes, I'm sure to the average person; Hey, let's overload the Federal Government so it fails, so we can then seceede and be independant, wouldn't go over that well. Even though, I've heard it many times on this board concerning the welfare state. Everyone who could, should sign up so we destroy the welfare state. Heard it on here aplenty. Like I said, I don't know which way I lean on this, but I would definitely welcome 50 independant states.

[heavenlyboy34]

We would be invaded by a congolmerate of nations (likely the UN) for our own good. Blue helmets would be our police and noblemen as we live like savages and they feel good about themselves for helping the savage out.

That is what would happen.

Each state has a national guard, and many (such as AZ) have air bases and heavy duty military power. The scenario you outline is highly unlikely, especially considering the UN is mostly reliant on the US for financial support. (the US is a charter member, you know) Hell, the UN building is in NYC! The UN is such a parasite-I just don't see them trying to kill their host (sucking their blood, maybe).

[Dieseler]

Each state has a national guard, and many (such as AZ) have air bases and heavy duty military power. The scenario you outline is highly unlikely, especially considering the UN is mostly reliant on the US for financial support. (the US is a charter member, you know) Hell, the UN building is in NYC! The UN is such a parasite-I just don't see them trying to kill their host (sucking their blood, maybe).

But he was saying IF it happened, not that it would or that he wanted it to.
I agree with everything else you said and I believe if such as this happens to our Country it will be planned and intentional by the Organizations you listed above and or their leading members and most importantly factions of our own government and International bankers.
We don't want that.

[MelissaWV]

I wonder where the victim came from... with a last name like Guzman?

I didn't read all of what I'm sure was a calm, intelligent exchange. I just read the OP. It sounds more like one of those "you're not _______ enough" arguments. You know, there have been people saying "you act white; you're not black enough" and "stop acting black" for quite a long time. I'll bet there's even violence over it.

I don't really see this article as indicative of anything except an intense need to find a way to justify arguments for people who cannot make them intelligently. If people could debate their side without these sorts of "examples," which do nothing but make the poster seem goofy as hell, then we'd all be richer for it.

[Elm]

I find this to be lacking in historical precedent. Not saying it wouldn't happen, but I severely doubt it. Besides, after 1,000 deaths they'd likely pull out of whatever independant state they moved into.

We're talking USSR failure here. Neither the Federal Government could stop it, or internationalists (UN/NATO/etc.).

It doesn't mean the UN wouldn't try. I am sure many of its member states would benefit heavily from "investing" in helping the US to recover and being selected by the UN to be the only channel out for our natural resources. They don't have to hold much land, just an area and a path to a harbor or airport around each resource. A few blocks of a few token cities to give the reporters back in each member state some photos to keep support up back home.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

It doesn't mean the UN wouldn't try. I am sure many of its member states would benefit heavily from "investing" in helping the US to recover and being selected by the UN to be the only channel out for our natural resources. They don't have to hold much land, just an area and a path to a harbor or airport around each resource. A few blocks of a few token cities to give the reporters back in each member state some photos to keep support up back home.

How come they didn't do this when the USSR fell? What about the current rumblings in Spain from secessionists? I suppose the closest you can come to is Somalia (But that was mainly the US!), but look at the failure that was. Somalia is still a stateless society and the international presence there now is quite limited.

Besides, a free independant state here in the US would make Afghanistan and Iraq look like a joke, hell, it would make vietnam look like a joke. Europeans don't have the will to fight, especially over here to keep the US intact which they all ready don't like.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

But he was saying IF it happened, not that it would or that he wanted it to.
I agree with everything else you said and I believe if such as this happens to our Country it will be planned and intentional by the Organizations you listed above and or their leading members and most importantly factions of our own government and International bankers.
We don't want that.

Yes, we don't want 50 independant States. We want one monolothic State which is much easier for TPTB to take over. Good plan Einstein.

[Elm]

How come they didn't do this when the USSR fell? What about the current rumblings in Spain from secessionists? I suppose the closest you can come to is Somalia (But that was mainly the US!), but look at the failure that was. Somalia is still a stateless society and the international presence there now is quite limited.

Besides, a free independant state here in the US would make Afghanistan and Iraq look like a joke, hell, it would make vietnam look like a joke. Europeans don't have the will to fight, especially over here to keep the US intact which they all ready don't like.

The US still existed when the USSR fell. We could vote no in the UN.

Oh I'm not saying they have the will to fight, they have the will to capture and contain however. If our state simply broke away with no adverse affects (such as civil war) and our military control was stable (primarly nukes and service, upkeep, communication with out nuclear subs) we would be fine. I consider that to be one big if though.

[Dieseler]

Yes, we don't want 50 independant States. We want one monolothic State which is much easier for TPTB to take over. Good plan Einstein.


How did you even manage that as a reply to what I typed?
It wasn't even a reply pointed at you.
Below is what he is replying to in the quote above.
Can anyone else make make his reply fit into the context of what I said?

But he was saying IF it happened, not that it would or that he wanted it to.
I agree with everything else you said and I believe if such as this happens to our Country it will be planned and intentional by the Organizations you listed above and or their leading members and most importantly factions of our own government and International bankers.
We don't want that.
If you want to see your country neutered and dismantled, I guess its your right to say so but if you think that would lead to 50 free States you are obviously and sadly mistaken.
Are you wearing ruby slippers?
Oh, I know I have a history of getting angry and leaving a debate but it is just that.
History.
Attempts to anger the New Dieseler on Christmas Eve will fall flat.

[Zippyjuan]

One person kills another after an arguement and this becomes proof that the end of the US is near? The citizenship status of the people involved was not relevant in my opinion. Citizens kill each other every day. Of coures if people are concerned about illegal aliens in this country maybe we could get some sort of national ID and have the cops or military so random checks everybody from time to time to be sure they have one. Left your ID at home? You get sent out of the country.

[V4Vendetta]

guess what, it is a fact, deport illegal immigrants, and crime will go down. Why? well one reason, is because there will be less people... thus less crime.

Our whole country has been perverted to the point where I have just about given up on it. Its all in God's hands.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

How did you even manage that as a reply to what I typed?
It wasn't even a reply pointed at you.
Below is what he is replying to in the quote above.
Can anyone else make make his reply fit into the context of what I said?

If you want to see your country neutered and dismantled, I guess its your right to say so but if you think that would lead to 50 free States you are obviously and sadly mistaken.
Are you wearing ruby slippers?

As far as I am concerned socialists are not my fellow countrymen. Secondly, of course there won't be 50 free states. There will be 50 independant states though, and I'd imagine at least 10 or so would be much freer than we are today, by a pretty good margin.

[Dieseler]

As far as I am concerned socialists are not my fellow countrymen. Secondly, of course there won't be 50 free states. There will be 50 independant states though, and I'd imagine at least 10 or so would be much freer than we are today, by a pretty good margin.

Man I wish I could say or believe that you are right but unfortunately, I am a realist and see the World for what it is.
It ain't happening man, be careful what you wish for.
Thanks for the Einstein compliment by the way.
That was very nice of you.
You're kind of smart to.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Man I wish I could say or believe that you are right but unfortunately, I am a realist and see the World for what it is.
It ain't happening man, be careful what you wish for.
Thanks for the Einstein compliment by the way.
That was very nice of you.
You're kind of smart to.

Well, a realist wouldn't say that the TPTB are behind secessionists. That's about as ludicrous as anything I've ever heard.

[Dieseler]

Well, a realist wouldn't say that the TPTB are behind secessionists. That's about as ludicrous as anything I've ever heard.

Keep an open mind.
People often become the tools of those who would do them harm or seek to control them absolutely.
If secession became a viable tool to meet an end or a final solution to a long standing problem in the minds of TPTB then they would surely be willing to back it.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Keep an open mind.
People often become the tools of those who would do them harm or seek to control them absolutely.

You posit that TPTB are behind both the centralization and decentralization....pick one. It's like Global Warmists claiming that it can both create warming and cooling. I would say you border on TPTB paranoia, but I wouldn't quite pull that card yet... :p

[Dieseler]

You posit that TPTB are behind both the centralization and decentralization....pick one. It's like Global Warmists claiming that it can both create warming and cooling. I would say you border on TPTB paranoia, but I wouldn't quite pull that card yet... :p

You posit that they are not and that is a very dangerous assumption.
Powerful people always leaves themselves an option in the face of defeat.
I hope you don't pull that card period because it is totally irrelevant to the point you are trying to make.

[Zippyjuan]

guess what, it is a fact, deport illegal immigrants, and crime will go down. Why? well one reason, is because there will be less people... thus less crime.

Our whole country has been perverted to the point where I have just about given up on it. Its all in God's hands.

Not necessarily.
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2008/03/05/immigration_and_crime/

By Jeff Jacoby
Globe Columnist / March 5, 2008


The paper, by economists Kristin F. Butcher and Anne Morrison Piehl, assesses the impact of immigration on crime by analyzing data from California, which has by far the nation's largest population of prison inmates: One-eighth of all state prisoners in the United States are incarcerated in California, as are 30 percent of all inmates who are not American citizens. What Butcher and Piehl demonstrate is that immigrants, far from being more likely to end up behind bars, are dramatically less likely to do so.

The numbers are striking: While immigrants (legal and illegal) account for 35 percent of California adults, they represent just 17 percent of the state's prisoners. Men born in the United States are incarcerated in California prisons at more than 2½ times the rate of foreign-born men. Within the age group most often involved in crime (ages 18 to 40), US natives - astonishingly - are 10 times more likely to be in prison or jail than immigrants (4.2 percent of the former are in correctional institutions, and just 0.42 percent of the latter). Even when the focus is narrowed to inmates who were born in Mexico and are not citizens - the demographic group most likely to include illegal immigrants - the rate of incarceration is only one-eighth that of men born in the United States.

Butcher and Piehl also compared crime rates among California cities. They found that the cities with greater numbers of recently arrived immigrants have lower crime rates, while cities with fewer immigrants experience higher levels of crime.

[LibertyEagle]

Keep an open mind.
People often become the tools of those who would do them harm or seek to control them absolutely.
qft

[andrewh817]

People who cheat are gaming the system.

Who exactly are these people cheating? It's not the worker because without wages he wouldn't survive and it's not the land owner because he obviously can't nurture and harvest the crop without outside help. Also I hate to break it to you but the only way the highest in power survive is by "gaming the system." And speaking of the system, wasn't the minimum wage law created by poor people looking to increase their wages? OH WAIT it was created by the people AT THE TOP of the power structure who would never want or need a job that low paying anyways. Did anyone ask the farmer what a fair minimum wage was or even if he wanted a minimum wage? It's obvious farmers DON'T want them because otherwise people like you wouldn't be complaining about all the jobs "illegal aliens" are getting.



People who hire illegal aliens are nothing but greedy cheats, too lazy to invest in innovation.

And how is paying someone more because you're forced to by law an "investment in innovation?" Last time I checked the "illegal aliens'" money is accepted in the same places a "citizen's" is. And with the money the farmer is not wasting on paying the workers he can actually expand his farm or crop variety (sounds a lot like innovation) or spend it on consumer goods, thus keeping more people employed.

It's funny how easy it is to tell other people how to live their lives as long as you have the option of overeating and surfing the internet. If you're unemployed (illegal or not) and the only work in your area is picking strawberries, you're going to ask a farmer for work. If the amount of labor you can handle is not worth the minimum wage then HE'S NOT GOING TO HIRE YOU and you're going to stay hungry. Unless of course his greed is so rampant that he'd actually "cheat the system" and pay you for wages you both agree on....

[MelissaWV]

I love how entirely off-topic these threads get.

[rpfan2008]

I bet this is not the only incident of this kind in US, but this time it is released in MSM because they want you to react...or their instigators in the "race" department to act...

Obamacare includes illegals...remember.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

Brent Batten: Immokalee stabbing shows another side of immigration debate

By BRENT BATTEN
Posted December 21, 2009
Naples News

I swear we don’t plan this stuff out.

But no sooner than does a series of articles about the Collier County Sheriff’s Office program to deport troublesome illegal aliens conclude than an illegal alien is in the headlines, and not in a good way.

The sheriff’s program, as outlined in stories Sunday and Monday, targets illegal immigrants who run afoul of the law. Deputies, through extra training, are empowered to enforce federal laws and begin deportation proceedings as they see fit. In places without the program, local authorities have to rely on federal agents to undertake the deportation process against known illegal immigrants residing in their jails, a demand the feds are not always prepared to meet.

The program and the articles about it elicited the predictable responses from good-hearted people who see tragedy in the separation of families. They fret over the anxiety experienced by those who skirted the rules to find a better life in the United States yet are one traffic stop away from losing it.

Then along comes Mauricio Escalante. The 33-year-old illegal immigrant was arrested Saturday for stabbing to death a 17-year-old on the streets of Immokalee.

The teenager’s affront that set off the fatal confrontation — daring to speak English in America.


According to Sheriff’s Office reports, around 3 a.m. Saturday Charlie Guzman and some friends gathered at the laundry of an apartment complex on Colorado Avenue. Three others, including Escalante, were already there and the two groups began talking until a dispute erupted over the victim’s group speaking English, not Spanish.

Escalante went to a nearby apartment, got a knife, and fatally stabbed Guzman, according to reports.

So much for the notion that illegal immigrants are universally a hard-working, law abiding set committed to doing the jobs Americans won’t do, all while trying to assimilate.

While plenty of people in the community of illegal immigrants, a majority, no doubt, fit that description, there are bad actors in the group.

The bad actors are the ones targeted by the sheriff’s program. For proof of that, one need look no further than Escalante. A year ago, he wound up in jail because deputies found him so drunk he was deemed to be a threat to himself or others.

But being drunk out of your mind in public isn’t the sort of thing that gets you deported under the sheriff’s system.

“Until the murder, he didn’t have a criminal history with us,” Sheriff’s Office spokeswoman Karie Partington said.

In two years, about 2,200 illegal immigrants have been either deported or are awaiting deportation through the sheriff’s efforts. Among that many cases, there are bound to be a few where the triggering offenses seem minor or the hardship upon family members here legally seems great.

But there are hardships to be borne by turning a blind eye toward illegal immigrants among us.

Ask the family of Charlie Guzman.

DISCUSS THIS ARTICLE WITH OUR ONLINE ACTIVISTS AT...

http://www.alipac.us/ftopicp-996783.html#996783

I'm for deporting illegal aliens because they work hard for nothing. We are a people's nation, not a tyrant's nation. This means the people should make as much money as possible getting the most done while doing the least amount of work!

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

I love how entirely off-topic these threads get.

. . . politically speaking, that is.
The American natural law. Is this really The one and only political Truth? Why do we get off the topic? Well, most of us don't understand the difference between behaving as a European and behaving as an American. Most don't understand how the social contract was furthered by our Amercan Founding Fathers. Unlike the European founders, our American Founding Fathers reduced down to pure gold. Or is it pure gold?
Whatever the case, there is a lot of poison.
*Lawyers like to claim that legality takes precedence over Civil Purpose. They like to spit out claims that the intentions of our Founding Fathers were to set up an ideal government rather than set up a necessary tyranny to serve the happiness of the people. Yet, any child knows when drawing a stick figure of a person that a human being is not complete without a smile drawn on his or her face!
The arrogance of modern science has abandoned the Civil Purpose of the people with the contention that the model set up by our Founding Fathers is out moded. And, yet, by definition, a self evident and unalienable Truth can never by overturned by future events. As science has burdened mankind with pollution, we are made to forget that the worst pollution hindering mankind has always been that of tyranny.
*If the Truth is self evident and unalienable, then I don't need a lawyer interpreting it for me, a philosopher defining it to me, a teacher explaining it to me, or a historian revising it for me. This is something that belongs to me! How dare these people attempt to misconstrue that which has been won for me by so much pain and sorrow?