Tanning salons will go out of business

[sofia]

10% is a huge tax increase. Most successful businesses operate on a 10% - 20% profit margin to begin with.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2009-12-23/tanning-salons-say-tax-would-trigger-job-cuts-store-closings.html

[brandon]

Global warming will make them obsolete. ;)

[ItsTime]

they will just pass their new tax to their consumers.

[Bruno]

This sin or luxury tax is bullshit, and most Americans should be pissed by this type of stupid overhanded taxation by the federal government. Instead, most figure if they don't tan, who cares. Until the government decides to sin tax their "vice". Slippery slope.


they will just pass their new tax to their consumers.

Yep. A percentage of which will stop tanning because it has gotten too expensive for them, driving away profits.

[ItsTime]

This sin or luxury tax is bullshit, and most Americans should be pissed by this type of stupid overhanded taxation by the federal government. Instead, most figure if they don't tan, who cares. Until the government decides to sin tax their "vice". Slippery slope.



Yep. A percentage of which will stop tanning because it has gotten too expensive for them, driving away profits.

Exactly. A family friend owns a tanning salon. They are already on the verge of going out of business (like a lot of businesses). This new tax might push them over the edge.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Exactly. A family friend owns a tanning salon. They are already on the verge of going out of business (like a lot of businesses). This new tax might push them over the edge.

So don't pay it?

[Ethek]

The 'Unintended Consequence' of this are so perverse its not even funny. Almost Everyone in the North American hemisphere suffers from large Vitamin D deficiencies.

Using the money in the health care bill for 'tanning salon' subsidies would do far more to solve the health care crises than anything else.

I think the health lobby knows the power of Vitamin D. It is the most efficient way is to get vitamin D is not by any type of supplement but UV exposure on your skin.

The health benefits of vitamin D are damn near miraculous.

[Bruno]

So don't pay it?

I.R.S. might not like that.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

I.R.S. might not like that.

Don't file. I think it's time for mass civil disobedience. If two million people refused to pay their taxes, and didn't lie about their income and simply refused to file, we might make some inroads fighting this bullshit. I think it's time we don't let fear keeping us back from using C.D. It's up to each individual, but I would urge them to take a strong look at it.

[Ethek]

Don't file. I think it's time for mass civil disobedience. If two million people refused to pay their taxes, and didn't lie about their income and simply refused to file, we might make some inroads fighting this bullshit. I think it's time we don't let fear keeping us back from using C.D. It's up to each individual, but I would urge them to take a strong look at it.

Work out some kind of system of trade.. who needs money.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Work out some kind of system of trade.. who needs money.

Aye. Gold/Silver/Copper/Platinum/etc.

[sofia]

Don't file. I think it's time for mass civil disobedience. If two million people refused to pay their taxes, and didn't lie about their income and simply refused to file, we might make some inroads fighting this bullshit. I think it's time we don't let fear keeping us back from using C.D. It's up to each individual, but I would urge them to take a strong look at it.

The FED would just print up the shortfall and steal your money's value.....same thing

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

The FED would just print up the shortfall and steal your money's value.....same thing

No it's not. If anything that would bring about the fall even faster, and encourage the black market even more. So thats win-win. Three, is that we actually follow our principles in action. So its win-win-win.

[HOLLYWOOD]

Just jacked Tans by 10%.

But look at the bright side... No Tax on Botox! Guess what lobbying group spent more money for the Prostitutes on Capital Hill?


Remember CASH is KING... leave no trail or tracks of Paper or Electrons for the Tyrannical Racketeers running the Imperial Empire.

[LibForestPaul]

As stated before, humans are greedy and foolish. Most are happy with nothing, as long as it is more nothing than their neighbors. "I do not go to salons, why would I care". LOL hehehehe....Just wait till you sin is taxed. With government control of people health, it won't be long until burgers are taxed, and soda, and candy, and ice-cream. We Do have a diabetic explosion occurring, and with a majority of people overweight or obese, I for one can not wait to have my food items taxed, all in the name of health. Bawhahahhahaha.
They were ready (did not check at last count) more than willing to tax medical supplies and equipment and health plans provide too much, lets see how else they will steal more money from our pockets. (But I don't tan, why would I care) HEHEHEHEHEHE.

[LDA]

Don't file. I think it's time for mass civil disobedience. If two million people refused to pay their taxes, and didn't lie about their income and simply refused to file, we might make some inroads fighting this bullshit. I think it's time we don't let fear keeping us back from using C.D. It's up to each individual, but I would urge them to take a strong look at it.

When people are scraping to get by and the learn that the government lacks the ability enforce tax laws, they'll stop paying them. That's the best thing that could happen. We can starve the government to death.

[UnReconstructed]

what about fitness centers that have tanning beds?

[tangent4ronpaul]

If you can find a readhead female senator going through menopause, ask her why she put this in the bill....

-t

[Matt Collins]

If you can find a readhead female senator going through menopause, ask her why she put this in the bill....Dennis Kucinich's wife :p

[Matt Collins]

This sin or luxury tax is bullshit, and most Americans should be pissed by this type of stupid overhanded taxation by the federal government. Instead, most figure if they don't tan, who cares. Until the government decides to sin tax their "vice". Slippery slope.
This doesn't bother me, I don't use these tanning places. After all I am sure they are just breeding grounds for filth, immorality, and debauchery. They should all be abolished because only the rich white people use them. It isn't fair that these people can afford to tan themselves while people like me cannot.

/sarcasm :rolleyes:


But seriously...


Since when in the hell did Congerss get the power to put a direct tax on people who tan?!?! :mad::confused::mad::confused:


In other news, looks like I'll be seeing a lot more tan lines during Spring Break in 2010 :p

[christagious]

The 'Unintended Consequence' of this are so perverse its not even funny. Almost Everyone in the North American hemisphere suffers from large Vitamin D deficiencies.

Using the money in the health care bill for 'tanning salon' subsidies would do far more to solve the health care crises than anything else.

I think the health lobby knows the power of Vitamin D. It is the most efficient way is to get vitamin D is not by any type of supplement but UV exposure on your skin.

The health benefits of vitamin D are damn near miraculous.

I've read a lot about the benefits of Vit D and even using tanning to get it, but I'm still sketchy about the cancer risk, that's why I will not get into a tanning bed. Know of any scientists or doctors who dispute the cancer link with tanning beds?

[Matt Collins]

Funny thing... I talked to a friend of mine who tans and she is happy about the tax it because she wants to stop tanning and a higher price will be her deterrent to doing so. She also said her salon sent out an e-mail asking her to write her congressman. We know things are bad if tanning salons are begging their patrons to petition their representatives.

[MelissaWV]

This is obviously a racist provision. Darker-skinned people don't need tanning beds; this whole thing is just another way of getting money out of pale white folks!!!

Anyways, this will have a consequence but a savvy business will get around it. Someone earlier was right on the nose when they said "don't pay it," but you don't have to get in trouble with the IRS to do so:

Jane Doe's Salon & Spa:

This week only! Free tanning session with every mani/pedi!

Next week, Half-price tanning session with haircut.

This could go on and on. The tax is a percentage tax. Please realize that tanning is one of the cheaper things a full-service salon is going to offer. It's easy enough to reduce the price of tanning, or "throw it in for free" and spread the cost of the tax throughout all the other services. No one really cares if you charge $1 for a haircut.

If businesses play this intelligently, this will (like most everything else) hurt only specialized businesses.

[BlackTerrel]

Since when in the hell did Congerss get the power to put a direct tax on people who tan?!?! :mad::confused::mad::confused:

We've had cigarette taxes for how long now?

I imagine this is under the guise of health...

[Rael]

I'm just going to offer the owner of my tanning salon cash under the table.

[Matt Collins]

I'm just going to offer the owner of my tanning salon cash under the table.
You will be a tanning rebel and will be found guilty of the horrible offense of allowing people to tan without a permit, or without collecting the tanning tax. This is not even to mention that you won't have the proper license because you will not be inspected by the government health department. And if it's under the table then you obviously won't have an occupational license to be in this line of work, nor will you be in compliance with your localities' zoning plan. You sir are a menace to society and will be someone who should pay dearly for your transgressions against the state! What is wrong with you? Why are you such an immoral individual? Please THINK OF THE CHILDREN or the terrorists have already won. :rolleyes:

[FunkBuddha]

I've never been to a tanning bed in my life but this makes me want to go and then pay them in silver.

[healthnut4freedom]

The 'Unintended Consequence' of this are so perverse its not even funny. Almost Everyone in the North American hemisphere suffers from large Vitamin D deficiencies.

Using the money in the health care bill for 'tanning salon' subsidies would do far more to solve the health care crises than anything else.

I think the health lobby knows the power of Vitamin D. It is the most efficient way is to get vitamin D is not by any type of supplement but UV exposure on your skin.

The health benefits of vitamin D are damn near miraculous.

You are correct! It is a total crock. Vitamin D is therapeutic and ten minutes a week at a tanning salon helps a lot of people. It not only gets you through the winter but sufferers of conditions like psoriasis get tremendous relief.
This is just another bogus way to get rid of something that is truly healing.

[FindLiberty]

Who can tax the sunrise (Who can tax the sun shine...)? << i.e., tanning salons
Who can tax the trees (...And vitamin D?) ?

The government Can...
YouTube - Tim Hawkins - The Government Can (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO2eh6f5Go0)

[RSLudlum]

Exactly. A family friend owns a tanning salon. They are already on the verge of going out of business (like a lot of businesses). This new tax might push them over the edge.

Two months ago, I helped my sister-in-law close down her tanning salon - never realized how damn heavy those things were. She sent all the leased beds back and has kept 2 for personal use in her house. So, with this tax, I guess there could probably be a glut of used beds going on the market. More used beds = less newly manufacted beds = more unemployed tanning bed assemblers.

[RonPaulCentral]

I.R.S. might not like that.

That is why each Tanning Salon needs to become a "meditation center" with use of Free Tanning beds during each paid visit.

There are many ways around this. Our government is truly stupid.

[gb13]

I've read a lot about the benefits of Vit D and even using tanning to get it, but I'm still sketchy about the cancer risk, that's why I will not get into a tanning bed. Know of any scientists or doctors who dispute the cancer link with tanning beds?

Vitamin D Council (http://www.vitamindcouncil.org)

Dr. Joseph Mercola (http://www.mercola.com) (Just search for Vitamin D)

The very small skin cancer risk using the right kind of bed properly, is far outweighed by the benefits of vitamin D.

[TinCanToNA]

Two months ago, I helped my sister-in-law close down her tanning salon - never realized how damn heavy those things were. She sent all the leased beds back and has kept 2 for personal use in her house. So, with this tax, I guess there could probably be a glut of used beds going on the market. More used beds = less newly manufacted beds = more unemployed tanning bed assemblers.

No more thinking about the consequences of the actions of Congress. It will only lead to perpetual depression :(

[Matt Collins]

http://reason.com/blog/2010/06/17/new-at-reason-greg-beato-on-th

[tangent4ronpaul]

Why this is an incredibly important precedent! As tanning booths are a artificial substitute for sun rays, that means we can tax sun rays - by legal precedent, of course... Just think of it - go out during the day - we can tax you. That is a source of a natural tan, of course, as well as a source of energy to produce vitamin D - which the body needs. We can tax yards and especially gardens and farms for their use of our precious sun rays. Discontinuing service might be a bit difficult, however so we may experience high levels of theft.

In the next phase, we will tax oxygen, on the legal pretext that our sun rays produced plants that converted CO2 into O2 - producing that O2 that is OUR PROPERTY!

Overall, I think the Corporations will be very pleased.

-t

[DrRP08]

Global warming will make them obsolete. ;)

haha

[HOLLYWOOD]

I.R.S. might not like that.


Ca$H is King... ;)

I think Tanning Salons (UV tanning beds) are getting the bad PR from the health industry related to UV rays that has dropped business along with this Depression we're in.

Just open a "BODY PAINTING SHOP" spray on tans, now you circumvent the tax laws.


Only problem is I hope they improved the spray dye/tint... when I met the Governator a few years ago, I thought his skin looked Orange.

YouTube - Sunblock 5000 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCTSCAQzY9k)

[Ethek]

Most people in North America are Vitamin D deficient in the winter months. Vitamin D may be the single most important immune system component. Anything from Cancer to 'Swine-flu' and even Heart Disease. Way to go Gov for taking the most efficient way for many to supplement out of reach.

[tangent4ronpaul]

Only problem is I hope they improved the spray dye/tint... when I met the Governator a few years ago, I thought his skin looked Orange.


There are vitamins that will do that if taken in overage. Spacing on shich right now. Eating too many carrots will do the same thing. It's a melatonin thing. Ironically, hair die goes orange with exposure to sunlight.

Commercial source that does not disclose what's in it so they can sell at a high price.

http://www.healthychoicenaturals.com/p-13-TANAMINS.aspx

-t

[Elwar]

The only way I am willing to even acknowledge race is by the differences in melanin in one's skin.

Clearly, this tax is illegal under the Civil Rights Act and should be fought by anyone who's melanin levels require that they go to a tanning salon. It's basically a race tax.

[AGRP]

Ahh the good ole days:

When our founding fathers granted the federal government the right to tax tanning beds.

[Andrew-Austin]

Its funny because some people (liberals) say that only the rich bourgeois go to tanning salons, and thus use that as an excuse to tax them. Well, way to go left! They will become even more bourgeois as you force them to rise prices, way to make sure a service is unavailable to the poor.

[cindy25]

since this effects all tanning salons they can and will just pass it on to the end consumer

[Natalie]

Snooki is against it!! And John McCain assured her that he would never tax tanning bed use!


Snooki also addressed her recent Twitter hook-up with Sen. John McCain, who told the reality star that he would never tax tanning bed use. "I love Obama, y'know, he's the president," Snooki said. "I support him all the way. But, come on, tanning?"

SOURCE: http://www.popeater.com/2010/06/16/jersey-shore-snooki-fox-news/

http://www.bourgy.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Snooki.jpg

On the other hand, maybe it's not such a bad idea... :eek:

[Noob]

As stated before, humans are greedy and foolish. Most are happy with nothing, as long as it is more nothing than their neighbors. "I do not go to salons, why would I care". LOL hehehehe....Just wait till you sin is taxed. With government control of people health, it won't be long until burgers are taxed, and soda, and candy, and ice-cream. We Do have a diabetic explosion occurring, and with a majority of people overweight or obese, I for one can not wait to have my food items taxed, all in the name of health. Bawhahahhahaha.
They were ready (did not check at last count) more than willing to tax medical supplies and equipment and health plans provide too much, lets see how else they will steal more money from our pockets. (But I don't tan, why would I care) HEHEHEHEHEHE.

Yes they well tax them, and they also make it were obese people can not have any children of thier own, so on untill every one needs to go to the government to get approvle to have children.

[specialK]

Work out some kind of system of trade.. who needs money.

Bartering is taxable.

[Working Poor]

I've read a lot about the benefits of Vit D and even using tanning to get it, but I'm still sketchy about the cancer risk, that's why I will not get into a tanning bed. Know of any scientists or doctors who dispute the cancer link with tanning beds?

I am pretty sure that since vitamin D is so healthy science is using every propogand idea it can to keep you from getting this free benefit they even tell you to use sun screen to keep you from getting any benefits from being in the sun.:cool:

[fisharmor]

Jane Doe's Salon & Spa:

This week only! Free tanning session with every mani/pedi!

Next week, Half-price tanning session with haircut.


This is great. It illustrates two points:

First, that government is always outsmarted by the market. A person who (presumably) has nothing to do with the industry figured out how to get around the law in less than a day.
Unfortunately there's a case from Maryland from a couple years back, where MD put price controls on gasoline. I think it was Wawa who started giving out free coffee with a fill-up, and MD shut down that promo post haste for "ignoring the price controls".

Whenever gov't control of markets was taken to its logical conclusion, it involves on-the-spot death penalties for rulebreaking. Anything less and it'll get outsmarted. Push it that far, and you're looking down the barrel of a revolution.
Gov't is always fighting a losing battle with the market, and as soon as it stops trying, things will get better.


Second, that IP laws aren't helpful. If IP laws were taken to their logical conclusion, then Melissa would be able to patent the idea of giving away free tans - except that the people at Wawa would have beaten her to it. Then nobody would get to use that idea. In the end IP just ends up being another way for gov't to try to shut down the market. Without it, everyone gets to use the idea, and everyone benefits.

[Bruno]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/07/AR2010070701076.html

By N.C. Aizenman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, July 7, 2010; 5:19 AM

The sun hasn't exactly set on Solar Planet, but anxiety over the fate of the Arlington tanning salon has been running high ever since a "tan tax" took effect Thursday.


One of the less publicized measures in the new health-care law, the tax imposes a 10 percent surcharge on the use of ultraviolet indoor tanning beds.

Supporters -- including the Obama administration, congressional Democrats and dermatologists -- have argued that the tax will raise an estimated $2.7 billion toward the cost of expanding health coverage to the uninsured, while discouraging a practice that increases the risk of skin cancer by as much as threefold in frequent users, according to scientific research.

But outraged tanning salon owners worry that the levy could deal a death blow to an industry already reeling from the recession.

"In 26 years of business this is the worst I've seen it," said Scott Shortnacy, owner of the Arlington Solar Planet as well as six other branches in the Washington area. "Normally for people who tan, it's a part of their lifestyle. They keep doing it even in a recession. But everybody has been looking for ways to cut back on those areas. ... Our sales are down 20 to 30 percent."

According to the Indoor Tanning Association, an industry trade group, most of the nation's 19,000 tanning salons are small businesses owned and staffed by women. Shortnacy said all but two of his several dozen employees are women. With business so slow, he opted against hiring the 10 to 15 seasonal workers he normally adds during the spring high season.

Even the Arlington salon, Shortnacy's most successful location because of its proximity to sun-deprived Pentagon workers and Northern Virginia mall shoppers, is suffering. Appointments have dropped from 300 per day to about 160.

How much further the tan tax will drive down those numbers is hard for Shortnacy to predict, however. And the early signs during a recent afternoon at the salon were mixed.

Like many customers, Lisa Haggett, 48, who recently retired from the Air Force and tans several times a week, said she made a point of buying her next package of sessions before July 1 so she could avoid the tax. After she's used up the package, she said, she may need to cut back. Unlimited monthly passes at the salon run about $50, noted Haggett, whose visits have toasted her to a medium shade of brown.

"This is something that makes me feel good," Haggett said. "The reality is it's a luxury. It's not a need."

Dane Ellington, 49, a health-care consultant whose deep bronze color spoke to a lifetime of indoor tanning, expressed annoyance at being singled out. Why not tax people who sunbathe outdoors? Or binge on cheeseburgers? Or, for that matter, who use Botox injections -- which were originally slated to be taxed under the law until a last-minute frenzy of lobbying prompted lawmakers to substitute the tan tax.

"I understand that the money [for the health-care overhaul] needs to come from somewhere," Ellington said. "But this doesn't seem like the appropriate place. It's just silly."

Still, plenty of other customers said they had no quarrels with the tax -- particularly those who supported the health-care law in general.

"I know I shouldn't be tanning, but I do it because it makes me feel better," said Karie Apicella, 34, a patent examiner whose fair skin had acquired a honey-hued glow. "So I guess I understand the idea behind the tax, and I'm willing to pay it."

"It's almost like when your parents tell you that you shouldn't drink and you sort of know it's true, but you do it anyway," said a laughing 29-year-old Marine officer who declined to give her name because she felt sheepish about divulging her tanning habits to those under her command.

"Some people pay $6 for a latte because it's their way of relaxing or treating themselves," added the officer. "Well, this is my latte, and I'm not going to stop ordering it."

[jmdrake]

In other news, looks like I'll be seeing a lot more tan lines during Spring Break in 2010 :p

That and/or a bigger demand for privately owned nude beaches. :p

Of course you've just given me a nutty, but possible good entrepreneurship idea. What about a "natural" tanning salon? Basically a room with a skylight and mirrors on the roof to concentrate the sunlight plus an LCD filter to regulate how much comes in. Even on a cloudy winter day you might get enough to get a decent tan. Hmmm.....

[MelissaWV]

That and/or a bigger demand for privately owned nude beaches. :p

Of course you've just given me a nutty, but possible good entrepreneurship idea. What about a "natural" tanning salon? Basically a room with a skylight and mirrors on the roof to concentrate the sunlight plus an LCD filter to regulate how much comes in. Even on a cloudy winter day you might get enough to get a decent tan. Hmmm.....

Really nice spas already have sunning areas ;) You could certainly do a lower-end version of such, and even include a "warning" about too much sun, just to cover your butt. You could hang that small warning just under the massive plaque in which you describe the benefits of natural sunlight. Please be aware that a retractable awning or similar device is better than a skylight; most glass tends to filter and distort sunlight, making it a bit pesky to get a tan.

If you are wondering, the last spa I went to had a central courtyard area with tile/brick walkways, and a bit of "lawn" area to lay out on if you like, or nice big cozy chairs to lie down on. There were plants, and it was open air, so whether or not it was open depended on the weather. The fountain, though, was obnoxious. You're encouraged to drink a lot of water, and hearing running water for a really long time means trips to the restroom....

[jake]

what about fitness centers that have tanning beds?

I *think* I saw on tv that they are not affected :o

[jmdrake]

Really nice spas already have sunning areas ;) You could certainly do a lower-end version of such, and even include a "warning" about too much sun, just to cover your butt. You could hang that small warning just under the massive plaque in which you describe the benefits of natural sunlight. Please be aware that a retractable awning or similar device is better than a skylight; most glass tends to filter and distort sunlight, making it a bit pesky to get a tan.

If you are wondering, the last spa I went to had a central courtyard area with tile/brick walkways, and a bit of "lawn" area to lay out on if you like, or nice big cozy chairs to lie down on. There were plants, and it was open air, so whether or not it was open depended on the weather. The fountain, though, was obnoxious. You're encouraged to drink a lot of water, and hearing running water for a really long time means trips to the restroom....

Dagnabbit! Another multimillion dollar idea scoped again by captain obvious. ;) How does the spa setup you've describe do in the winter months? (That's why I was thinking about the sky light).

Here's another idea. Medical marijuana dispensaries could just let the patrons lay out under the "grow lamps" with the plants. :p.

[MelissaWV]

Dagnabbit! Another multimillion dollar idea scoped again by captain obvious. ;) How does the spa setup you've describe do in the winter months? (That's why I was thinking about the sky light).

Here's another idea. Medical marijuana dispensaries could just let the patrons lay out under the "grow lamps" with the plants. :p.

Vegas and Florida don't have very cold winters :p You can still sit out on chairs and read a book or have a mug of hot cocoa if it gets chilly. Spas do brisk business year-round because of "girls' day out" type things, pre-wedding parties, and really bored women with nothing better to do than get massages and skin treatments. I would re-iterate the caution about the skylights, because warping and filtering the sunlight might mean you are taking away some of the benefit, while simultaneously focusing the light in such a way that it's like frying an ant with a magnifying glass ;)

[Natalie]

I quit tanning a couple years ago. The only safe tan is a tan in a bottle. I never burn, but I wear spf 70 when I go to the beach because I don't want to have sun spots and wrinkles when I'm 30.

[Matt Collins]

http://img1.jokeroo.com/pictures/badtan.jpg

[jmdrake]

http://img1.jokeroo.com/pictures/badtan.jpg

Is this an advertisement for burkhas? :p

[Matt Collins]

Is this an advertisement for burkhas? :p
Have you never heard of the Burkini?








http://stilettorevolt.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/burkini.jpg

[WaltM]

10% is a huge tax increase. Most successful businesses operate on a 10% - 20% profit margin to begin with.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2009-12-23/tanning-salons-say-tax-would-trigger-job-cuts-store-closings.html

really?

20% is a very low return if you're a brick & mortar store, having to pay rent, be on time, close and 5...etc.

Maybe decrease in rent costs would compensate for this?

[Acala]

Because they did not think this through, they have boosted tourism in the evil State of Arizona. The sun is always shining here folks. Come and get it!

[RCA]

The 'Unintended Consequence' of this are so perverse its not even funny. Almost Everyone in the North American hemisphere suffers from large Vitamin D deficiencies.

Using the money in the health care bill for 'tanning salon' subsidies would do far more to solve the health care crises than anything else.

I think the health lobby knows the power of Vitamin D. It is the most efficient way is to get vitamin D is not by any type of supplement but UV exposure on your skin.

The health benefits of vitamin D are damn near miraculous.

Just curious, what makes the supplement variety less good?