What is the Libertarian Take on Property Taxes?

[Stop Making Cents]

Personally i find property taxes to be completely communistic and it enrages me to have to shell out thousands and thousands of dollars every year just for the privelege of owning a home that I paid for.

But from a practical standpoint, how would the school system be funded? Clearly, there is tons of waste in the school system, and I'm a firm believer that increased spending in no way correlates to better education. But still, the school systems need funded.

What is the Libertarian take on property taxes, and what is the practical solution to ending this tyranny. (what would replace property taxes in funding schools and other basic functions if they are repealed?)

[awake]

Property taxes are theft. The money, if left in the original owners hands, would fund free market competitive businesses that provide all of what the government pretends to provide. The key idea is free from government intervention and competitive by way of free entry. The competitive nature tends to improve quality and lower prices. Not to mention the consumer is back in charge and can liquidate bad investments when needed.

Protection services would be sold by free market private defense insurance companies , not the mutilated state protected vampire organizations they are now.


BTW school systems used to be private and funded by consumer choice not long ago. But since the state has been the sole operators for at least a couple generations people forget what freedom is.

Listen To Hans Hoppe http://mises.org/media/2861

[Kludge]

Libertarians don't have takes, opinions, nor ideas. It's the only rule to becoming a Libertarian.

[Matt Collins]

Read these two pages:
http://www.theadvocates.org/ruwart/questions_list.php?Category=7
http://www.theadvocates.org/ruwart/questions_list.php?Category=20

[BuddyRey]

"Property tax" is an oxymoron, since the entire idea behind it is that you owe somebody money for something you've already bought and paid for in full. And what's worse, the party demanding money from you is somebody you never even contracted with in the first place.

Schools would then most likely need to be funded privately and non-coercively, for the most part by those who plan on patronizing them, but probably also by community benefactors.

[torchbearer]

If you move onto a shire voluntarily, the tax kinda comes with it.
If someone turns your property into a part of the shire, you have been conquered.

[james1906]

I pay a couple grand a year to fund schools even though I have no children and to fund utilities that also send me a bill every month.

Ask me what I think about them.

[CCTelander]

All taxation is theft.

[MN Patriot]

Governments need to get resources one way or another, if they are to provide services governments are supposed to provide.

I think property taxes are a reasonable method for local governments to raise money for local things, such as police, local infrastructure, etc. But of course how much is enough? And for what things?

Ideally, parents should be responsible for paying for their children's education. Scholarships could be used, like colleges already do. The opponents of free markets like to say we hate education, and embrace ignorance. Free market education would be superior to government indoctrination.

[torchbearer]

Governments need to get resources one way or another, if they are to provide services governments are supposed to provide.

I think property taxes are a reasonable method for local governments to raise money for local things, such as police, local infrastructure, etc. But of course how much is enough? And for what things?

Ideally, parents should be responsible for paying for their children's education. Scholarships could be used, like colleges already do. The opponents of free markets like to say we hate education, and embrace ignorance. Free market education would be superior to government indoctrination.

I could go with property tax, if only the property tax payers were the only one's allowed to vote.

[awake]

I think property taxes are a reasonable method for local governments to raise money for local things, such as police, local infrastructure, etc. But of course how much is enough? And for what things?



Remember the truth that is abundantly surrounding us today; limited government is a failed experiment. Local government gave way to state government, which paved the way for federal and international governance.

The open door was conceding that we need monopoly protection and defense services run by a privileged set of individuals for anything. The free market puts food on our tables for god sake , with out it we die in short order, and we still can not understand that it could work to provide every other human need as well.

The biggest lie is the fact that we are bombarded with relentless propaganda reinforcing the idea that we need it. We most certainly do not.

[james1906]

Also forgot to add that I pay property taxes to a hospital district, but I have no health insurance.

[Ethek]

Agrarian Justice

Oh, Thomas Paine.. a little more libertarian insight about the evil of the state and I think he may have had a workable thought.

'Ground Rent' As he termed it. I am not entirerly opposed to his train of thought. Carrying through with Paines idea, the 'rent' would not be based on 'cultivated value' so it would not be a tax on labor. A tax on direct inheritances at 10%, and "indirect" inheritances at more than.


It should stop at a one time tax and a one time payment for 'lost opprotunity'

My reasoning

People that have amassed property, privately (and justly) do have a certain monopoly on the opprotunity and success that it brings. Its lost opprotunity for those that would like to cultivate it but cannot. They take the deposit from some trustie.. (preferably not the state) and it satisfies the demands of society to compensate those born with a poor lot in life. Leave them to their own means of spending that money to be productive. If life has not set them up to be succesfull.. so be it.

[Ricky201]

Governments need to get resources one way or another, if they are to provide services governments are supposed to provide.

I think property taxes are a reasonable method for local governments to raise money for local things, such as police, local infrastructure, etc. But of course how much is enough? And for what things?

Ideally, parents should be responsible for paying for their children's education. Scholarships could be used, like colleges already do. The opponents of free markets like to say we hate education, and embrace ignorance. Free market education would be superior to government indoctrination.

Property taxes are probably one of the most oppressive taxes of all. And to say that you can actually buy property, but continually pay local and state governments taxes on something that you own is also one of the most dumbest concepts I've ever heard. You never own property in this country, because the government simply allows you to keep it for a price.

I much prefer renting over anything else thank you very much.

If you want to use government services, than by all means send them a check! If people do not want to use government services, than what is the point in funding them?

[Derek Johnson]

theft backed up by the coercive monopoly of violence, and a violation of property rights

[kahless]

It is like anything else with government you give them an inch and eventually they will have taken a mile. Come to NY state and you will see why you should never allow any government to start collecting property taxes. The people that thought 15 years ago $1500-$3000 was high are now paying $8000 to $15,000 depending on the county or town. Are people outraged, yes, but was there any revolution, no. Just a mass exodus of young people and seniors to the south and foreclosures.

Despite this and the economy they still want to raise taxes even more. They justify it here as being for the schools "for the children". Highest teachers salaries in the country and with the amount they collect in taxes you would think the school walls are made of gold.

When or if I could find a region that is Libertarian and does not have any property taxes and has privatization of schools I am there.

[South Park Fan]

Libertarians don't believe in serfdom, so property taxes would have to be abolished.

[Pericles]

I could go with property tax, if only the property tax payers were the only one's allowed to vote.

Great Britain used to do that, and the Duke of Wellington was very much against extending the right to vote to those "who have no stake in society".

[mtj458]

Property taxes are probably the most efficient type of tax because the supply of land is inelastic and so it has the least deadweight loss and the burden falls directly on the property holder. For most taxes, such as an income or payroll tax, labor incentives are distorted and the burden is shared to some extent by everyone. That of course does not take into accounts improvements on the land, such as additions to a house. Given that we're realistically going to have some taxes, a property tax probably makes the most economic sense.

[Danke]

Property taxes are probably the most efficient type of tax because the supply of land is inelastic and so it has the least deadweight loss and the burden falls directly on the property holder. For most taxes, such as an income or payroll tax, labor incentives are distorted and the burden is shared to some extent by everyone. That of course does not take into accounts improvements on the land, such as additions to a house. Given that we're realistically going to have some taxes, a property tax probably makes the most economic sense.

I think there should be exemptions, as a place to live is essential and fosters freedom.


As examples. You live in the city, a standard lot (50'?) should be exempt from taxation.

Suburban, maybe an acre. Rural, five acres. And agriculture ~40 acres. Just rough figure to be worked out.

Above those amount, you pay property tax (not for things like education though).

That way the government can never take your land from you that you need to live. But larger estates are taxed, as they benefit the most from the protection the state provides. Police force, protection from foreign invasion, etc.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

If you are a Randian/Nozickian, then more than likely you are for it. If you are a Voluntaryist/An-Cap libertarian, then you are against. I happen to believe that there should be no State, and I believe that the free-market is best in any market, in any sector, and in any industry. Moving from a utilitarian standpoint (Mises), I also hold that it is immoral (Rothbardian). Even if it didn't pass the utilitarian standpoint I would still be against it based solely on justice and morals. It is inherently immoral and a grave injustice to steal.

[Justin D]

If you own land in allodial title, then you don't have to pay tax because you would be the absolute owner of the real estate and property.

The question should be, "how do I aquire allodial title to my property?"

[johnrocks]

I loathe property taxes.

[Bruno]

I pay a couple grand a year to fund schools even though I have no children and to fund utilities that also send me a bill every month.

Ask me what I think about them.

Since working in the mortgage industry in the property tax department, that has always frustrated me as well. You're definately not alone.


Property taxes are probably one of the most oppressive taxes of all. And to say that you can actually buy property, but continually pay local and state governments taxes on something that you own is also one of the most dumbest concepts I've ever heard. You never own property in this country, because the government simply allows you to keep it for a price.

I much prefer renting over anything else thank you very much.

If you want to use government services, than by all means send them a check! If people do not want to use government services, than what is the point in funding them?

If the government can take it away for you not paying a tax, you really don't ever even own it do you?


Great Britain used to do that, and the Duke of Wellington was very much against extending the right to vote to those "who have no stake in society".

I'm against this idea, because government does not only enact and enforce laws that affect property owners, but also laws which affect everyone else as well. And renters still do pay the same tax, it is not paid by the landlord - property tax is a cost of doing business for a landlord that is passed off to the renter who really is paying the tax.

[brandon]

The question should be, "how do I aquire allodial title to my property?"

From my understanding, only two states have allodial titles.

To get one, you essentially have to pay all the property tax you would pay over the rest of your life in one lump sum up front.

Furthermore, allodial titles are non-transferable, and expire when you expire.

[Met Income]

From my understanding, only two states have allodial titles.

To get one, you essentially have to pay all the property tax you would pay over the rest of your life in one lump sum up front.

Furthermore, allodial titles are non-transferable, and expire when you expire.

You'd have to be crazy to do that. They'll find a way to tax you later.

[brandon]

You'd have to be crazy to do that. They'll find a way to tax you later.

It can protect you from property tax increases. If you live somewhere that you expect to become heavily developed in the next decade or two, you can avoid the drastic raises in property taxes that comes along with a higher property values.

[GunnyFreedom]

Property tax was the first issue that ever came sharply into my awareness, as to how desperately opposed to the ideals of freedom that our nation has become. There I was, 13, 14, 15 years old and raising hell with everyone I met explaining that property tax was de-facto rent for property wholly owned by the government.

[treyfu]

All taxes are a form of theft. I think the only tax that is close to morally sound is a sales tax, simply because it is paid (somewhat) voluntarily by an individual making a decision to purchase a product that is taxed. This is the only form of tax that is remotely acceptable in my opinion.

[Met Income]

It can protect you from property tax increases. If you live somewhere that you expect to become heavily developed in the next decade or two, you can avoid the drastic raises in property taxes that comes along with a higher property values.

And if they violate the agreement?

[torchbearer]

you can have a voluntary shire just like you can have a voluntary communal.
so yes, property taxes could be voluntary.
If we called cities what they are- Shires, and if they were upfront and honest about what they are- kingdoms with an elected oligarchy. and people chose to live in those shires knowing that they will be paying the kings taxes for a list of services. there is nothing wrong with the property tax.
the city is "incorporated" as a business for a reason.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

you can have a voluntary shire just like you can have a voluntary communal.
so yes, property taxes could be voluntary.
If we called cities what they are- Shires, and if they were upfront and honest about what they are- kingdoms with an elected oligarchy. and people chose to live in those shires knowing that they will be paying the kings taxes for a list of services. there is nothing wrong with the property tax.
the city is "incorporated" as a business for a reason.

Let me know where in the deed or title, taxes are included. As for being a stickler to definitions here it is.

Tax - a burdensome charge, obligation, duty, or demand.

Certainly not voluntary. It belies its definition.

Secondly, if what you say is true, then it means we have no private property (Which certainly we don't), but you calling property taxes voluntary and the prose of your response seems to indicate that you believe that private property is not a natural right. Therefore, it seems you have quite a dichotomy. Do you support Natural Law, or don't you? Also, who owns this property? Since cities are democracies, then everyone does. Haven't you seen what recklessness democracy is?


What is true, just, and beautiful is not determined by popular vote. The masses everywhere are ignorant, short-sighted, motivated by envy, and easy to fool. Democratic politicians must appeal to these masses in order to be elected. Whoever is the best demagogue will win. Almost by necessity, then, democracy will lead to the perversion of truth, justice and beauty

[GunnyFreedom]

I, for one, do not live in any city or township, I do not live in any incorporated area. Yet I am charged property tax by the county.

[tremendoustie]

Personally i find property taxes to be completely communistic and it enrages me to have to shell out thousands and thousands of dollars every year just for the privelege of owning a home that I paid for.

But from a practical standpoint, how would the school system be funded? Clearly, there is tons of waste in the school system, and I'm a firm believer that increased spending in no way correlates to better education. But still, the school systems need funded.

What is the Libertarian take on property taxes, and what is the practical solution to ending this tyranny. (what would replace property taxes in funding schools and other basic functions if they are repealed?)

I think public schools should be funded by user fees, and the poor should be sponsored by charity. Theft is not an appropriate way to fund any enterprise.

[tremendoustie]

you can have a voluntary shire just like you can have a voluntary communal.
so yes, property taxes could be voluntary.
If we called cities what they are- Shires, and if they were upfront and honest about what they are- kingdoms with an elected oligarchy. and people chose to live in those shires knowing that they will be paying the kings taxes for a list of services. there is nothing wrong with the property tax.
the city is "incorporated" as a business for a reason.

What you describe is only the case if it is the owner of the property that is charging the fees -- the city governments don't own the property within them. Neither a king nor government has a right to charge people fees in order to live on their own land.

I think in the case of a voluntary commune, which people are free to disassociate with at any point, I might be inclined to call them dues or some-such, rather than taxes.

[idirtify]

Looking into “alloidal”, I learned that no civilian really truly does own real estate property in this country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allodial_title

Reading it reminded of me of similar stuff I was recently reading about automobile ownership. We don’t really own them either. Oh…and it’s all “constitutional”.

Isn’t waking up to long-standing government tyranny wonderful!!

BTW, I pay over $4K annual property taxes and have no kids or medical insurance.

[ChaosControl]

Personally i find property taxes to be completely communistic and it enrages me to have to shell out thousands and thousands of dollars every year just for the privelege of owning a home that I paid for.

But from a practical standpoint, how would the school system be funded? Clearly, there is tons of waste in the school system, and I'm a firm believer that increased spending in no way correlates to better education. But still, the school systems need funded.

What is the Libertarian take on property taxes, and what is the practical solution to ending this tyranny. (what would replace property taxes in funding schools and other basic functions if they are repealed?)

Property taxes are the absolute worst form of taxation.
They say that property is not private, that it is all owned by government. The property tax works like a leasepayment, when you buy and sell property you are buying and selling the right to that lease rather than ownership of the land. Someone could have a lot of land but not a lot of income and have property taxes they cannot afford and therefore must sell off land to afford to live there. It is far worse than even income tax, which is bad enough being a major invasion of privacy.

Funding the schools, if you have public schools or publicly funded vouchers, you can fund them however you decide to have public money for your areas. That could be a sales tax, a profit tax on business, or whatever.

[GunnyFreedom]

Looking into “alloidal”, I learned that no civilian really truly does own real estate property in this country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allodial_title

Reading it reminded of me of similar stuff I was recently reading about automobile ownership. We don’t really own them either. Oh…and it’s all “constitutional”.

Yeah, about as 'constitutional' as forcing people to scrape up their last dime to pay an HMO billionaire or go to prison. Not that this stops those monsters, mind you.


Isn’t waking up to long-standing government tyranny wonderful!!

BTW, I pay over $4K annual property taxes and have no kids or medical insurance.

[fisharmor]

I think public schools should be funded by user fees, and the poor should be sponsored by charity. Theft is not an appropriate way to fund any enterprise.

I think we should shackle our children to a chair for 6 hours a day, feed them mostly greasly fast food slop and sodas, make sure that they never develop any critical thinking skills, teach them to worship a piece of cloth... and I think each and every American should be charged several thousand dollars a year for this, regardless of whether or not their children actually go through this process.

As has been said, property tax is an oxymoron because it's not your property. It belongs to the government, who lets you use it for a fee. This isn't my "take", it's a fact.

And I would gladly pay twice what I currently pay in property taxes, if we could dismantle public schools in my county entirely. Get rid of the damned schools they're paying for, and you're at most two decades away from your newly awakened populace getting rid of the tax as well.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Isn't it amazing how people can be literate, yet become even dumber? Ha! What a great educational system!

[Danke]

I think we should shackle our children to a chair for 6 hours a day, feed them mostly greasly fast food slop and sodas, make sure that they never develop any critical thinking skills, teach them to worship a piece of cloth...

http://www.losthorizons.com/Newsletter/sat7.jpg

[idirtify]

Yeah, about as 'constitutional' as forcing people to scrape up their last dime to pay an HMO billionaire or go to prison. Not that this stops those monsters, mind you.

No, really…it’s genuinely constitutional, even far predating it. Just go read the link.

[GunnyFreedom]

The Senate just voted 60-40 to claim that the individual mandate was 'Constitutional' as well. It's irrelevant what some idiot power-broker wants to "claim" is Constitutional, but the argument itself is irrelevant. There is no Federal property tax as far as I know anyway. The US Government is not even trying to claim the right to tax property, and therefore whether it is or is not Constitutional under the US Constitution is irrelevant.

A 9th Amendment case may be made to bar the States from this power, but the bottom line is that the battle over THIS issue must be fought in the State Assemblies. Clearly, there is no authorization for the power to tax property in the US Constitution, and therefore it is NOT Constitutional. I don't care if BH Obama and 635 members of Congress, and 9 members of the SCOTUS chant in unison that it is -- it's just NOT. But in any case, it's irrelevant, because the Federal Government does not levy property taxes anyway.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

The Senate just voted 60-40 to claim that the individual mandate was 'Constitutional' as well. It's irrelevant what some idiot power-broker wants to "claim" is Constitutional, but the argument itself is irrelevant. There is no Federal property tax as far as I know anyway. The US Government is not even trying to claim the right to tax property, and therefore whether it is or is not Constitutional under the US Constitution is irrelevant.

A 9th Amendment case may be made to bar the States from this power, but the bottom line is that the battle over THIS issue must be fought in the State Assemblies. Clearly, there is no authorization for the power to tax property in the US Constitution, and therefore it is NOT Constitutional. I don't care if BH Obama and 635 members of Congress, and 9 members of the SCOTUS chant in unison that it is -- it's just NOT. But in any case, it's irrelevant, because the Federal Government does not levy property taxes anyway.

One could argue it is constitutional if the Federal Government actually apportioned their taxes like they are supposed to.

Secondly, you can also argue its Constitutionality based on the 10th Amendment. The Constitution is a horridly flawed document. You would have to check into the NC Constitution to see if property taxation is prohibited or not. If it isn't then it follows the Constitution via 10th Amendment.

[idirtify]

The Senate just voted 60-40 to claim that the individual mandate was 'Constitutional' as well. It's irrelevant what some idiot power-broker wants to "claim" is Constitutional, but the argument itself is irrelevant. There is no Federal property tax as far as I know anyway. The US Government is not even trying to claim the right to tax property, and therefore whether it is or is not Constitutional under the US Constitution is irrelevant.

A 9th Amendment case may be made to bar the States from this power, but the bottom line is that the battle over THIS issue must be fought in the State Assemblies. Clearly, there is no authorization for the power to tax property in the US Constitution, and therefore it is NOT Constitutional. I don't care if BH Obama and 635 members of Congress, and 9 members of the SCOTUS chant in unison that it is -- it's just NOT. But in any case, it's irrelevant, because the Federal Government does not levy property taxes anyway.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying property taxes are constitutional. I’m only saying that it’s constitutional that no one is allowed to really own property (land).

And don’t get me wrong on that. I’m not thereby defending the government for making absolute property ownership illegal (or defending the constitution for that matter).

I am only trying to emphasizing the fact that we have been getting raped for a really long time, and are still discovering all the different ways.

LONG LIVE INTERNET DISCUSSIONS!

[andrewh817]

Most voluntarists believe in private property...... and there is no private property with property taxes. If the government can justify no property rights it has the power to do whatever it wants.

[torchbearer]

Most voluntarists believe in private property...... and there is no private property with property taxes. If the government can justify no property rights it has the power to do whatever it wants.

on a shire you don't own your property.
in a communal you don't own your property.
both can be voluntary. taxation can actually be voluntary.

I set up a subdivision that has a list of services-
those people who buy lots in my subdivision agree by the purchase of the lot to pay a surcharge/tax to maintain those services.
that is a voluntary society with a property tax.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

on a shire you don't own your property.
in a communal you don't own your property.
both can be voluntary. taxation can actually be voluntary.

I set up a subdivision that has a list of services-
those people who buy lots in my subdivision agree by the purchase of the lot to pay a surcharge/tax to maintain those services.
that is a voluntary society with a property tax.

Let me know where you signed what we currently have, and show me where in your contract (deed/title) are these stipulations. Thanks.

[torchbearer]

Let me know where you signed what we currently have, and show me where in your contract (deed/title) are these stipulations. Thanks.

i was thinking about doing this- but i'd have to use family land, and i'm not much for governing over people.
but it can be done. it really wouldn't be hard at all.

the Lone Pine government is more of a meeting of the families to discuss projects that can benefit the community. things too big for one family to do- but possible with everyone working together.
that is a voluntary government with no property taxes, just voluntary taxes given by the project.
like for instance, the community water tower.
you only pay the tax, if you use the water.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

i was thinking about doing this- but i'd have to use family land, and i'm not much for governing over people.
but it can be done. it really wouldn't be hard at all.

the Lone Pine government is more of a meeting of the families to discuss projects that can benefit the community. things too big for one family to do- but possible with everyone working together.
that is a voluntary government with no property taxes, just voluntary taxes given by the project.
like for instance, the community water tower.
you only pay the tax, if you use the water.

I'm not against voluntary communals whatsoever. In fact, it fits into Anarcho-Capitalism, in that its strictly a voluntary society. This only holds up however, if anyone can enter or leave at any time.

Good luck getting people signed up to that. (I never would; I prefer Free-Market Capitalism and Private Property)