View Full Version : Hypocrisy
reduen
10-04-2007, 09:21 AM
It is my understanding that these paint the town Ron events are illegal.
If so then why is it ok for all of us (Ron Paul Supporters) to break the laws and when our opponents do something illegal, we cry foul and question their integrity?
I mean think about it, at the end of the day most of us here support Dr. Paul for his honesty and integrity in a world of such corruption. (That is what makes him different than the others, right?)
Even though we do not agree with each other on many things, we stand together and fight for justice, the American way of life and the rule of law. (The Constitution.)
Are we the hypocrites?
Chris R.
nullvalu
10-04-2007, 09:22 AM
wtf are you talking about.. its not illegal to put up signs on public property..
micahnelson
10-04-2007, 09:22 AM
Civil Disobedience?
Some laws need to be broken to show the unfairness of those laws.
Rosa Parks, MLK, Lysander Spooner, Boston Tea Party
nullvalu
10-04-2007, 09:26 AM
yep.. even dr. paul suggested *peaceful* civil disobedience.. :)
reduen
10-04-2007, 09:28 AM
yep.. even dr. paul suggested *peaceful* civil disobedience.. :)
Ok, so which is it? Is it illegal or not?
Elwar
10-04-2007, 09:29 AM
Ok, so which is it? Is it illegal or not?
It depends on the local laws.
nullvalu
10-04-2007, 09:29 AM
AFAIK not - there is a sign posted to a tree along a road that has been there for years (public property) it says "Jesus is Coming Soon" lol
Johnnybags
10-04-2007, 09:30 AM
Ok, so which is it? Is it illegal or not?
The ordinances themselves are unconstitutional, leaves a quandry.
hopeforamerica
10-04-2007, 09:30 AM
Ok, so which is it? Is it illegal or not?
It may be against some city codes, but it is protected under the constitution.
reduen
10-04-2007, 09:32 AM
Civil Disobedience?
Some laws need to be broken to show the unfairness of those laws.
Rosa Parks, MLK, Lysander Spooner, Boston Tea Party
So are you saying that it is an unfair law for the people of this country not to be able to litter the roads with whatever message we believe to be important?
OK, let me answer this in a "once and for all" manner here.
Laws about what you can do and where on public land vary by locality. Saying that it is blanketly legal or blanketly illegal is stupid, and never true. Whether you agree with the law or not is irrelevant. There are lots of laws we disagree with, but we'd be stupid to violate them in a way that is harmful to us or to our candidate.
Before doing an event, check the law and figure out the legality. By reading the law, you also open up the potential that you will find some loophole that you can use, or some alternative legal activity to an illegal activity that will be as if not more effective anyway.
nullvalu
10-04-2007, 09:37 AM
We're trying to win an election and wake people the fuck up.. If you're afraid of getting in trouble for putting up a sign then you don't understand the importance of this revolution.
And I see signs along the road for different things all the time.. It's just a matter of who has more drive and ambition to get the word out.
We're trying to win an election and wake people the fuck up.. If you're afraid of getting in trouble for putting up a sign then you don't understand the importance of this revolution.
And I see signs along the road for different things all the time.. It's just a matter of who has more drive and ambition to get the word out.
Except that you won't get in trouble. Your meetup.com group won't get in trouble. The Ron Paul 2008 PCC will get in trouble.
CodeMonkey
10-04-2007, 09:40 AM
It is my understanding that these paint the town Ron events are illegal.
If so then why is it ok for all of us (Ron Paul Supporters) to break the laws and when our opponents do something illegal, we cry foul and question their integrity?
I mean think about it, at the end of the day most of us here support Dr. Paul for his honesty and integrity in a world of such corruption. (That is what makes him different than the others, right?)
Even though we do not agree with each other on many things, we stand together and fight for justice, the American way of life and the rule of law. (The Constitution.)
Are we the hypocrites?
Chris R.
Sure it's illegal in some places, but consider the degree. I wouldn't respect Dr. Paul any less, nor would I attack any other candidate, over a parking violation, and thats basically the same class of offense as hanging an illegal sign (in my area at least).
Also, hanging these signs promotes the democratic process, while corruption and dishonesty destroy it. The people hanging the signs just need to understand the potential consequences and be willing to accept them.
nullvalu
10-04-2007, 09:42 AM
Except that you won't get in trouble. Your meetup.com group won't get in trouble. The Ron Paul 2008 PCC will get in trouble.
I don't think so, as long as your signs have the "not affiliated with" wordage on it..
DrNoZone
10-04-2007, 09:42 AM
It is my understanding that these paint the town Ron events are illegal.
If so then why is it ok for all of us (Ron Paul Supporters) to break the laws and when our opponents do something illegal, we cry foul and question their integrity?
I mean think about it, at the end of the day most of us here support Dr. Paul for his honesty and integrity in a world of such corruption. (That is what makes him different than the others, right?)
Even though we do not agree with each other on many things, we stand together and fight for justice, the American way of life and the rule of law. (The Constitution.)
Are we the hypocrites?
Chris R.
It's hardly illegal to put up signs on public property in most cities. But even if so, it would be a VERY mild offense. Hardly worthy getting your panties in a wad.
Have you ever heard of civil disobedience? It was VERY illegal to throw tea into the Boston harbor too. Much moreso than a few signs on public property.
UtahApocalypse
10-04-2007, 09:42 AM
Except that you won't get in trouble. Your meetup.com group won't get in trouble. The Ron Paul 2008 PCC will get in trouble.
That is incorrect. At NO time has the PCC advised, endorsed or otherwise ordered us to place anything. What each of us does on our own free will is our decision and responsibility. What i know is I am more then willing to go to jail, pay the fines, whatever the outcome is to help save my country. I also personally believe that political speech is the #1 most important thing protected by the 1st amendment.
reduen
10-04-2007, 09:43 AM
We're trying to win an election and wake people the fuck up.. If you're afraid of getting in trouble for putting up a sign then you don't understand the importance of this revolution.
And I see signs along the road for different things all the time.. It's just a matter of who has more drive and ambition to get the word out.
I have a 4'x 8' banner in my front yard so I know the importants of signage. The difference is, it is my yard and it is legal! (Should I also spew foul language, would that make me sound more important?)
nullvalu
10-04-2007, 09:45 AM
(Should I also spew foul language, would that make me sound more important?)
perhaps worth a shot..
CodeMonkey
10-04-2007, 09:46 AM
What i know is I am more then willing to go to jail, pay the fines, whatever the outcome is to help save my country. I also personally believe that political speech is the #1 most important thing protected by the 1st amendment.
This is what everyone needs to understand. We should know the laws and be ready to suffer whatever consequences may come from breaking them. The founders broke every law in the books with full knowledge that if they lost or got captured, they would most likely die. That is real power.
nullvalu
10-04-2007, 09:46 AM
Sorry I just wish people would quit whining about the signs.. we're all doing what we feel is the best use of our time.. I for one am doing both the signs and the handouts..
That is incorrect. At NO time has the PCC advised, endorsed or otherwise ordered us to place anything. What each of us does on our own free will is our decision and responsibility. What i know is I am more then willing to go to jail, pay the fines, whatever the outcome is to help save my country. I also personally believe that political speech is the #1 most important thing protected by the 1st amendment.
No, it is absolutely correct. I can't comment further on this, but rest assured, the PCC gets in trouble.
Having the "not affiliated" yadda yadda wording insulates the PCC from FEC issues, but they can still get big problems from municipal enforcement. :(
If you refuse to believe this, you are hurting the campaign a great deal.
reduen
10-04-2007, 09:48 AM
perhaps worth a shot..
lol, I should also note that it has been up for over a month now.
This is what everyone needs to understand. We should know the laws and be ready to suffer whatever consequences may come from breaking them. The founders broke every law in the books with full knowledge that if they lost or got captured, they would most likely die. That is real power.
Yes, except unless you are caught in the act which is unlikely, you will not be the one suffering the penalties. The campaign committee will.
constituent
10-04-2007, 09:50 AM
reduen... trolly once more? c'mon man.
reduen
10-04-2007, 09:54 AM
I like the idea that someone posted a while back. Find people who own property (Barns, fences, or any buildings) on the side of the road and rent spots to put our signs up...
They will stay up much longer and you never know, you might just find another Ron Paul supporter. :)
reduen
10-04-2007, 09:55 AM
reduen... trolly once more? c'mon man.
You're kidding, right? :rolleyes:
nullvalu
10-04-2007, 09:57 AM
I like the idea that someone posted a while back. Find people who own property (Barns, fences, or any buildings) on the side of the road and rent spots to put our signs up...
They will stay up much longer and you never know, you might just find another Ron Paul supporter. :)
hypocrisy? from another thread you said:
I believe that the signs projects everyone has been doing is a waste of time and money. (Not to mention illegal.)
and now you're endorsing them? do you know how much wasted time and money there would be in that approach? really what are the chances of renting someone's barn?
reduen
10-04-2007, 10:04 AM
hypocrisy? from another thread you said:
and now you're endorsing them? do you know how much wasted time and money there would be in that approach? really what are the chances of renting someone's barn?
Sorry friend, I do not follow here. I may need to get away from the screen for a bit.
What I am proposing here is doing something legal as opposed to illegal..
micahnelson
10-04-2007, 10:07 AM
So are you saying that it is an unfair law for the people of this country not to be able to litter the roads with whatever message we believe to be important?
I'm noticing a slight bias in your description of our signs, lol.
On public property and in the public airwaves and in our private property it is our right to litter the world with whatever political message we see fit.
I would never hang a sign on someones private property, but public property is a free speech zone.
micahnelson
10-04-2007, 10:10 AM
I like the idea that someone posted a while back. Find people who own property (Barns, fences, or any buildings) on the side of the road and rent spots to put our signs up...
They will stay up much longer and you never know, you might just find another Ron Paul supporter. :)
This is the optimal way to do it. Maybe we should start specifically targeting small businesses in high traffic areas. If anyone knows about the trouble the IRS and regulations can cause it is the private businessman.
micahnelson
10-04-2007, 10:11 AM
Yes, except unless you are caught in the act which is unlikely, you will not be the one suffering the penalties. The campaign committee will.
Do we have evidence of that? Is it a fine they pay? I would hope that if the signs were causing a problem for the campaign they would communicate it.
CodeMonkey
10-04-2007, 10:15 AM
Yes, except unless you are caught in the act which is unlikely, you will not be the one suffering the penalties. The campaign committee will.
Please elaborate. I don't understand how the national campaign can suffer for spray-painted cardboard nailed to a telephone poll.
stevedasbach
10-04-2007, 10:19 AM
You can always choose to break a law -- just be prepared to accept the consequences (e.g. driving over the speed limit). In the case of signs, in most places you are probably talking about a fine.
To minimize the chances that the campaign will be fined, be sure to use homemade signs, not ones purchased from the campaign.
Spirit of '76
10-04-2007, 10:30 AM
Not this issue again...
Please elaborate. I don't understand how the national campaign can suffer for spray-painted cardboard nailed to a telephone poll.
The problem is that municipalities are filing suit against the campaign for violation of sign ordinances. Whether the suits have merit or are ultimately dismissed doesn't matter. What does matter is that the campaign's limited legal staff are getting tied up wasting good time and good money to respond to these suits when they could be doing important work like making sure we are in compliance with the balloting process for primaries in all 50 states.
As I've said before, it only takes a little bit more work and creativity to familiarize ourselves with local sign ordinances and find ways to work around them and still get our message out, but some people would rather excuse their laziness with revolutionary rhetoric than take a couple of minutes to come up with a new idea.
The problem is that municipalities are filing suit against the campaign for violation of sign ordinances. Whether the suits have merit or are ultimately dismissed doesn't matter. What does matter is that the campaign's limited legal staff are getting tied up wasting good time and good money to respond to these suits when they could be doing important work like making sure we are in compliance with the balloting process for primaries in all 50 states.
I wasn't going to say it because of the whole NDA bit, but... since you did...
Yeah, that. Defending even a frivolous lawsuit is not cheap. This was communicated to us by a staff member of the campaign.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.