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zdenek795
12-22-2009, 05:29 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_von_Bismarck

Read about the health plan of Otto von Bismarck

Bismarck's social legislation

On 20 March 1884, Bismarck declared:

[...]the actual complaint of the worker is the insecurity of his existence; he is unsure if he will always have work, he is unsure if he will always be healthy and he can predict that he will reach old age and be unable to work. If he falls into poverty, and be that only through prolonged illness, he will find himself totally helpless being on his own, and society currently does not accept any responsibility towards him beyond the usual provisions for the poor, even if he has been working all the time ever so diligently and faithfully. The ordinary provisions for the poor, however, leave a lot to be desired [...].[34]

The 1880s were a period when Germany started on its long road towards the welfare state it is today. The Social Democratic, National Liberal and Center parties were all involved in the beginnings of social legislation, but it was Bismarck who established the first practical aspects of this program. The program of the Social Democrats included all of the programs that Bismarck eventually implemented, but also included programs designed to preempt the programs championed by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels. Bismarck’s idea was to implement the minimum aspects of these programs that were acceptable to the German government without any of the overtly Socialistic aspects.

Bismarck opened debate on the subject on 17 November 1881 in the Imperial Message to the Reichstag, using the term practical Christianity[35] to describe his program. On 4 May 1881 Bismarck had also referred to this program as Staatssozialismus, when he made the following accurate prediction to Moritz Busch:

It is possible that our policy may be reversed at some future time when I am dead; but State Socialism will make its way.[36]

Another translation of this accurate prediction is:

It is possible that all our politics will come to nothing when I am dead but state socialism will drub[force] itself in. (Der Staatssozialismus paukt sich durch.)[37]

Bismarck’s program centered squarely on insurance programs designed to increase productivity, and focus the political attentions of German workers on supporting the Junker's government. The program included Health Insurance; Accident Insurance (Workman’s Compensation); Disability Insurance; and an Old-age Retirement Pension, none of which were then currently in existence to any great degree.

Based on Bismarck’s message, The Reichstag filed three bills designed to deal with the concept of Accident insurance, and one for Health Insurance. The subjects of Retirement pensions and Disability Insurance were placed on the back burner for the time being.[38]
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Health Insurance Bill of 1883

The first bill that had success was the Health Insurance bill, which was passed in 1883. The program was considered the least important from Bismarck’s point of view, and the least politically troublesome. The program was established to provide health care for the largest segment of the German workers. The health service was established on a local basis, with the cost divided between employers and the employed. The employers contributed 1/3rd, while the workers contributed 2/3rds . The minimum payments for medical treatment and Sick Pay for up to 13 weeks were legally fixed. The individual local health bureaus were administered by a committee elected by the members of each bureau, and this move had the unintended effect of establishing a majority representation for the workers on account of their large financial contribution. This worked to the advantage of the Social Democrats who – through heavy Worker membership – achieved their first small foothold in public administration.[38]
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Accident Insurance Bill of 1884

Bismarck’s government had to submit three draft bills before they could get one passed by the Reichstag in 1884. Bismarck had originally proposed that the Federal Government pay a portion of the Accident Insurance contribution. Bismarck’s motive was a demonstration of the willingness of the German government to lessen the hardship experienced by the German workers as a means of weaning them away from the various left-wing parties, most importantly the Social Democrats. The National Liberals took this program to be an expression of State Socialism, which they were dead set against. The Center party was afraid of the expansion of Federal Power at the expense of States Rights. As a result, the only way the program could be passed at all was for the entire expense to be underwritten by the Employers. To facilitate this, Bismarck arranged for the administration of this program to be placed in the hands of “Der Arbeitgeberverband in den beruflichen Korporationen”, which translates as “The organization of employers in occupational corporations”. This organization established central and bureaucratic insurance offices on the Federal, and in some cases the State level to perform the actual administration. The program kicked in to replace the health insurance program as of the 14th week. It paid for medical treatment and a Pension of up to 2/3rds of earned wages if the worker was fully disabled. This program was expanded in 1886 to include Agricultural workers.[38]
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Old Age and Disability Insurance Bill of 1889

The Old Age Pension program, financed by a tax on workers, was designed to provide a pension annuity for workers who reached the age of 70 years. At the time, the life expectancy for the average Prussian was 45 years. Unlike the Accident Insurance and Health Insurance programs, this program covered Industrial, Agrarian, Artisans and Servants from the start. Also, unlike the other two programs, the principle that the Federal Government should contribute a portion of the underwriting cost, with the other two portions prorated accordingly, was accepted without question. The Disability Insurance program was intended to be used by those permanently disabled. This time, the State or Province supervised the programs directly.[38]

South Park Fan
12-22-2009, 06:29 PM
Of course Obama is a pupil of Bismarck. Bismarck was Germany's Abraham Lincoln, launching aggressive wars against the German states loyal to Austria, replacing the decentralized German Confederation with the centralized Second Reich, launching another aggressive war against France (during which the first modern communist state was formed in the Paris Commune), and instituting socialist programs (including socialized medicine) to Germany. Since Obama often cites Lincoln as a role model, is it logical to think he holds Bismarck in a high light as well.

paulim
12-22-2009, 06:52 PM
Of course Obama is a pupil of Bismarck. Bismarck was Germany's Abraham Lincoln, launching aggressive wars against the German states loyal to Austria, replacing the decentralized German Confederation with the centralized Second Reich, launching another aggressive war against France (during which the first modern communist state was formed in the Paris Commune), and instituting socialist programs (including socialized medicine) to Germany. Since Obama often cites Lincoln as a role model, is it logical to think he holds Bismarck in a high light as well.

Hahaha. Is it a skill to talk intelligently about a topic you know not enough about for a backed opinion?

1. Bismarck cared for his own people and for his king. More so he cared for the traditional law and order. Thats not exactly Obama.
2. Bismarck put an end to foreign powers plundering through german states (especially France for the previous three centuries)
3. France declared war against Prussia to stop a german reunification
4. The social laws were a liberal invention and Bismarck tried to make a deal with these emerging powers. He surely didn't intend to socialize his country.

5. There has never been a more honest statesman than Bismarck since then, purely working his ass off to serve for his people. But for some this is over their heads.

South Park Fan
12-22-2009, 09:48 PM
Hahaha. Is it a skill to talk intelligently about a topic you know not enough about for a backed opinion?

1. Bismarck cared for his own people and for his king. More so he cared for the traditional law and order. Thats not exactly Obama.
2. Bismarck put an end to foreign powers plundering through german states (especially France for the previous three centuries)
3. France declared war against Prussia to stop a german reunification
4. The social laws were a liberal invention and Bismarck tried to make a deal with these emerging powers. He surely didn't intend to socialize his country.

5. There has never been a more honest statesman than Bismarck since then, purely working his ass off to serve for his people. But for some this is over their heads.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/featherstone/featherstone72.html

None of this stopped Bismarck, who recalled the Prussian diet and justified his actions by stating that he was accountable to the king, not to parliament. Nothing in the Prussian constitution stated that the two houses of parliament had to agree with the crown, Pinson writes. He then goes on the quote Bismarck making the final and greatest justification a statist can make:

"For me the necessity that the state exists is enough. ... Necessity alone is the determining factor" that calls for continued collection of taxes to finance all the expenditures for state activities. (p. 129)

Necessity alone allowed Bismarck to ignore the parliament, ignore the constitutional requirement that parliament authorize all taxation and expenditures, and keep the machinery of state functioning, to eventually wage two wars.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/callahan/callahan63.html

In the latter half of the nineteenth century, Otto von Bismarck, Prussia's prime minister, wanted to unify Germany. He had succeeded in creating the North German Confederation, with Prussia at the helm. But even a decisive Prussian victory over Austria in 1866 failed to persuade the people of the southern German states that they should unite in a Prussian-dominated German nation, and in subsequent elections in the south, anti-union legislators were generally victorious.

Bismarck thought that a pan-German war with France would change popular opinion in the south, especially if he could make it seem that France was the aggressor. Therefore, he tried to bring one about. His chance came when the rule of Queen Isabella II of Spain was overthrown in 1868. The Spanish parliament then sought an existing dynastic family to assume the throne....

http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo133.html

In fact, it was Lincoln’s own philosophy of coercion that was completely in sync with the political philosophy of Bismarck. Bismarck all but destroyed the principle of states’ rights and federalism in Germany, just as Lincoln’s war did in the U.S. Hitler himself praised Bismarck – and Lincoln – in Mein Kampf for providing precedents for the consolidation of all political power in the central governments of the two countries. (I describe Hitler’s praise for Lincoln’s anti-state sovereignty statements in his first inaugural address in my book, Lincoln Unmasked).

http://www.lewrockwell.com/gregory/gregory67.html

In many ways, Bismarck is the inspiration behind America’s greatest socialist experiments: Social Security, Medicare, and nationalized public schooling. The German tyrant saw the people he ruled as a collective social organism, to be molded, conditioned and regimented toward the furtherance of Prussian nationalism and the consolidated state he envisioned. The central state would control people from cradle grave, take charge of the education and development of young people’s minds, consume a sizable portion of the private economy for its military conquests and promise to take care of the old when they retired. The nation-state ruled supreme; the people, mere cogs in the machine.

South Park Fan
12-22-2009, 09:57 PM
http://mises.org/daily/1275

When Germany's Chancellor Otto von Bismarck conceived a system of social security for the industrial workers in the late 19th century he had a very clear objective in mind. Along with consolidating the geo-strategic position of the Reich, he set out to bring the industrial workers under the control of the State. Integrating the masses into the body of the newly formed unified German State was the objective, and a comprehensive social insurance system provided the means for obtaining this aim.

http://mises.org/daily/1026

No one is silly enough to talk of Bismarck as the defender of German liberties; of the Iron Chancellor giving Germany a new birth of freedom. Instead of a new birth of freedom, both Lincoln and Bismarck laid the foundation for the total states and the total wars of the 20th century, with their massive armies and the subordination of the citizen to the schemes of the state.

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=416

Hitler praises Otto von Bismarck for proving “the greatness of his statesmanship” by gradually diminishing the sovereignty of the German states and centralizing governmental power in Germany. This was a most welcome development, Hitler wrote, since the power of the central state in Germany was supposedly threatened by “the struggle between federalism and centralization so shrewdly propagated by the Jews in 1919-20-21 and afterward . . .” (p. 565). Federalism is “a league of sovereign states which ban together of their own free will, on the strength of their sovereignty” to cede some (but not all) of their sovereignty to form “the common federation” (p. 566). Hitler was violently opposed to such a system.

http://www.fff.org/freedom/0194b.asp

The modern welfare state and the implementation of socialized health care arose in 19th-century Germany, during the reign of Kaiser Wilhelm II and the administration of Chancellor Otto von Bismarck. In the 1870s, the Social Democratic Party had acquired increasing support among the German electorate and threatened to obtain a majority in the Reichstag, the German Parliament. The democratic triumph of Germany's socialist party seemed likely in the near future. The German monarchy and the conservative parties realized that something had to be done to deflect support away from the socialists and back to the established order.

Thus, the Kaiser sponsored welfare-statist legislation that was enacted by the Reichstag. Bismarck had this tactical goal in mind: the masses would shift their support from the radical program of the socialist movement to a renewed allegiance for the monarchy and the political status quo...

stilltrying
12-22-2009, 11:32 PM
I dont know jack squat about Bismarck or his policies, howver "his"story" is usually written by the victors. With the way the news paints Obamas health care plan as in "Everyone wants it but the GOP, white separitists", what makes anyone feel as if they can trust history on Bismarck? If we fail and lose this big battle do you think our truth will be written about. One side says this, the other side says that. Go get your depression books out, one side says it was caused by this, another side says it was that. Im sure that there is some truth in both sides the hard part is pulling it out of the lies and biases.