Under the Bill Senate just passed, everyone will be required to buy H. Insurance?

[Liberty Star]

That's what I heard on TV, is this really true?
If so, taking the choice away from the people will make it one of the most un-American bills ever and a win for Insurance industry. I hope Republicans will muster enough votes eventually to stop this bulldozer. This Dem regime is not really just the punishment for pro-war Republicans, it is becoming punishment for the whole America, all of us could be paying hefty price for very long time for what Bush/Cheney did in 2003 unless GOP is able to stop these dems.

[cheapseats]

I contend that Congress -- and via Bully Pulpit, Obama -- is legislating in Bad Faith.

They are not striving to provide Healthcare for Americans.

They are pimping Insurance.

Big Insurance and Big Law go together like Bonnie and Clyde.

[Liberty Star]

That would explain why the Senator who received millions in donations from Insurance industry was standing right behind Reid when he was touting this bill.


http://trueslant.com/rickungar/files/2009/10/image5406585x.jpg

Report: Senator Max Baucus Received More Campaign Money from Health and Insurance Industry Interests than Any Other Member of Congress.

h htp://democracynow.org/2009/6/16/report_senator_max_baucus_received_more

[torchbearer]

not participating- not paying any kind of tax- not happened in the Republic of Torchbearer.
nulification is an individual right.
Please ignore the mafia pretending to be our lords.

[armstrong]

YouTube - Yell Fire (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viYdHvYM6ao)

[armstrong]

just got to yell

[Dunedain]

You can pay a 2% of your income fine and that will satisfy the Obamination and his Democrapic hordes.

Unless you are on welfare or an illegal alien. Then you don't have to pay anything.

[Dunedain]

That would explain why the Senator who received millions in donations from Insurance industry was standing right behind Reid when he was touting this bill.


http://trueslant.com/rickungar/files/2009/10/image5406585x.jpg


http://www.democracynow.org/2009/6/16/report_senator_max_baucus_received_more

I'm confused, the insurance industry hates this bill. They are giving Reid money because? I get an update from one of the insurance companies weekly about how much they hate it.

[Liberty Star]

Isn't that only slightly less than the yearly cost of insurance for many people?

That's really forcing people and taking away the choice as to how people want to provide medical care for their bodies. Goes against everything American liberties are all about - or whatever is left of them.


In reply to your second post Dunedain, it's Sen Baucus who got the most money from health insurance industry, Reid probably gets more money from aipac type lobbies. If health insurance industry client base expands to everyone in the country, that would be huge business increase and chance for more profits for them. All this under the banner of "insurance reform".
I haven't read all the details myself but this does not look good from what I have learnt so far.

[MelissaWV]

Isn't that only slightly less than the yearly cost of insurance for many people?

That's really forcing people and taking away the choice as to how people want to provide medical care for their bodies. Goes against everything American liberties are all about - or whatever is left of them.

Oh c'mon... there's a bright side! At this rate, most folks will eventually be poor enough to get it for free! *sighs*

There is still a teeny ray of hope, in that if the bill changes "even a comma" Lieberman and Nelson may not vote for it, or so they say, and if enough people push at the Democrats who'd vote for the consolidated Bill... perhaps they'll back off. It only takes a couple. The two bills that have to be merged do have distinct differences. It could dissolve. It could.

[Liberty Star]

Oh c'mon... there's a bright side! At this rate, most folks will eventually be poor enough to get it for free! *sighs*

There is still a teeny ray of hope, in that if the bill changes "even a comma" Lieberman and Nelson may not vote for it, or so they say, and if enough people push at the Democrats who'd vote for the consolidated Bill... perhaps they'll back off. It only takes a couple. The two bills that have to be merged do have distinct differences. It could dissolve. It could.

Lieberman and JF Kerry were all praises for this "historic" bill today for short while I tuned in to CSPAN, Lieberman may have been holding out for promise for Iran war/sanctions or some other payback few days earlier.

[GunnyFreedom]

I'm confused, the insurance industry hates this bill. They are giving Reid money because? I get an update from one of the insurance companies weekly about how much they hate it.

Actually, the insurance companies love this bile (bill):

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/73089-ceos-group-offers-warm-words-for-senate-bill

[kahless]

I pulled this out of HR3590. Not sure if this is the latest.



‘‘(b) SHARED RESPONSIBILITY PAYMENT.—
‘‘(1) IN GENERAL.—If an applicable individual fails to meet the requirement of subsection (a) for 1 or more months during any calendar year beginning after 2013, then, except as provided in subsection (d), there is hereby imposed a penalty with respect to the individual in the amount determined
under subsection (c).
‘‘
‘‘(c) AMOUNT OF PENALTY.—
‘‘(1) IN GENERAL.—The penalty determined under this subsection for any month with respect to any individual is an amount equal to 1⁄12 of the applicable dollar amount for the calendar year.
‘‘(2) DOLLAR LIMITATION.—The amount of the penalty imposed by this section on any taxpayer for any taxable year with respect to all individuals for
whom the taxpayer is liable under subsection (b)(3) shall not exceed an amount equal to 300 percent the applicable dollar amount (determined without regard
to paragraph (3)(C)) for the calendar year with or within which the taxable year ends.
‘‘(3) APPLICABLE DOLLAR AMOUNT.—For purposes of paragraph (1)—
‘‘(A) IN GENERAL.—Except as provided in subparagraphs (B) and (C), the applicable dollar amount is $750.
‘‘(B) PHASE IN.—The applicable dollar amount is $95 for 2014 and $350 for 2015.

‘‘(D) INDEXING OF AMOUNT.—In the case of any calendar year beginning after 2016, the 11 applicable dollar amount shall be equal to $750, increased by an amount equal to—
‘‘(i) $750, multiplied by
‘‘(ii) the cost-of-living adjustment determined under section 1(f)(3) for the calendar year, determined by substituting ‘calendar year 2015’ for ‘calendar year
1992’ in subparagraph (B) thereof. If the amount of any increase under clause (i)
is not a multiple of $50, such increase shall be rounded to the next lowest multiple of $50.

[virgil47]

Actually, the insurance companies love this bile (bill):

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/73089-ceos-group-offers-warm-words-for-senate-bill

I find it difficult that they love this bill. The no exclusions for preexisting conditions and the fact that the government run option will become part of health care in America in the next few years can not please the insurance industry unless of course they have a death wish.

[GunnyFreedom]

I find it difficult that they love this bill. The no exclusions for preexisting conditions and the fact that the government run option will become part of health care in America in the next few years can not please the insurance industry unless of course they have a death wish.

there is no gov't option in this bill (AFAIK), and mandating that ever American buy insurance will MORE than account for the 'preexisting condition' payouts. like, by several orders of magnitude.

Why would I grouse about having to pay out an extra $1 Million; when I am receiving an extra $10 Billion for the privilege?

[Liberty Star]

I pulled this out of HR3590. Not sure if this is the latest.

Thanks for posting that, will need some dd to figure all this out:


The amount of the penalty imposed by this section on any taxpayer for any taxable year with respect to all individuals for whom the taxpayer is liable under subsection (b)(3) shall not exceed an amount equal to 300 percent the applicable dollar amount (determined without regard..



there is no gov't option in this bill (AFAIK), and mandating that ever American buy insurance will MORE than account for the 'preexisting condition' payouts. like, by several orders of magnitude.

Why would I grouse about having to pay out an extra $1 Million; when I am receiving an extra $10 Billion for the privilege?

Excellent point.

And if this bill goes through, they would have a lot more profits to spend in future on politicians and probably a "friendly" Republicans back in majority in next few years the way Obama regime is conducting itself - making any changes not beneficial to insurance industry unlikely.

[Dieseler]

Well I was right and right.
It would pass and there would be no public option.
As soon as I am right about Cap and trade passing I can look forward to being right about mudhuts and mudpies.

[MelissaWV]

Lieberman and JF Kerry were all praises for this "historic" bill today for short while I tuned in to CSPAN, Lieberman may have been holding out for promise for Iran war/sanctions or some other payback few days earlier.

It is still being merged with the other version of the bill. Lieberman supported the current version he approved. He has gone on record as saying that, if by merging, the bill changes at all... he will not support the "final" version.

[GunnyFreedom]

It is still being merged with the other version of the bill. Lieberman supported the current version he approved. He has gone on record as saying that, if by merging, the bill changes at all... he will not support the "final" version.

and since they will need 9 fewer votes in the Senate at that point, his whining is irrelevant.

[SevenEyedJeff]

I thought this bill has a religious objection. So claim it.

[Isaac Bickerstaff]

So what is the penalty for being uninsured? Will we be refused medical attention altogether even when we demonstrate an ability to pay in cash?

P.S. Cheapseats: Why the Hatin' on Bonnie and Clyde?:D

[parocks]

In a number of versions, I'm not sure about that version, you could go to jail for choosing not to buy health insurance.


That's what I heard on TV, is this really true?
If so, taking the choice away from the people will make it one of the most un-American bills ever and a win for Insurance industry. I hope Republicans will muster enough votes eventually to stop this bulldozer. This Dem regime is not really just the punishment for pro-war Republicans, it is becoming punishment for the whole America, all of us could be paying hefty price for very long time for what Bush/Cheney did in 2003 unless GOP is able to stop these dems.

[MelissaWV]

and since they will need 9 fewer votes in the Senate at that point, his whining is irrelevant.

I held him up as an example. If they do change something key, they may lose the votes. It's the slimmest sliver of hope. Basically, the ego trip each of them is on, to be the one to defeat the "unjust" portions of this bill (which is a laugh... the whole thing is unjust, unconstitutional, and unbelievable)... it could be our best friend for awhile. What happens with the "abortion clause"? What about all the new luxury taxes on certain procedures, now watered-down and laughable? Will everyone agree it can still pay for itself?

I'm not saying it will never pass, but if it gets delayed and delayed and delayed, maybe people will start looking at it and common sense will kick in? One can hope, that's all; one can really, really hope.

[moostraks]

I held him up as an example. If they do change something key, they may lose the votes. It's the slimmest sliver of hope. Basically, the ego trip each of them is on, to be the one to defeat the "unjust" portions of this bill (which is a laugh... the whole thing is unjust, unconstitutional, and unbelievable)... it could be our best friend for awhile. What happens with the "abortion clause"? What about all the new luxury taxes on certain procedures, now watered-down and laughable? Will everyone agree it can still pay for itself?

I'm not saying it will never pass, but if it gets delayed and delayed and delayed, maybe people will start looking at it and common sense will kick in? One can hope, that's all; one can really, really hope.

doubt it will get delayed...this is their cash cow and we have no more capacity to stop this freight train then we did with the bailouts, imo...

[Liberty Star]

In a number of versions, I'm not sure about that version, you could go to jail for choosing not to buy health insurance.

And once in jail, they would get free free health insurance. But what would happen to their dependents for whom they were also required to buy HI, would gov jump in and buy insurance for them?

Obama and the insurance money senator should hold a press conf and answer these questions.

[torchbearer]

In a number of versions, I'm not sure about that version, you could go to jail for choosing not to buy health insurance.


the penalty for not having the insurance is a tax increase
the pentalty for not paying the tax penalty is jail time
thus not having insurance will land you in jail.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

That's what I heard on TV, is this really true?
If so, taking the choice away from the people will make it one of the most un-American bills ever and a win for Insurance industry. I hope Republicans will muster enough votes eventually to stop this bulldozer. This Dem regime is not really just the punishment for pro-war Republicans, it is becoming punishment for the whole America, all of us could be paying hefty price for very long time for what Bush/Cheney did in 2003 unless GOP is able to stop these dems.

Well, the Truth is how business counterfeited the concepts of benefits, bonuses and perks in order to skirt real money created by "a days worth of pay for a days worth of work." This managing of an inequity between employees was made possible not by a "solution" created by "Health Insurance," no; but, the concept of Health Insurance was created as a scheme so companies could manage the inequity.
Now that the idea of total healthcare for all is being bantied about, this being the notion of a days worth of pay for a days worth of work, health insurance is just the wrong way to go about it!
In other words, why have unnecessary middle men* involved in the process? But it is too late! Who is to blame for all this though? As usual, it is us!
Stop blaming others and start taking responsibility!
*One belief in free enterprise is that losses result in higher quality and better productivity. With health insurance, the healthcare industry would never lose money meaning that its product would end up being of poor quality while being less productive.

[Bossobass]

They've simply switched high crime rates amongst street drug addicts to high crime rates amongst 'script drug addicts.

Yeah, land 'o the free, home of the brave, apple pies and Chevrolets, a chicken in every pot, truth, justice and the American Way!!!!

Let's all have the mandate to pay premiums for health care insurance and elevated drug prices... or else!

Meanwhile, Aspartame, EVA, HFC, Trans-Fats, Lithium/Flouride-dosed water supplies, 25 MPG cars, GM Food, Carcinogenic Fertilizers, Bovine Enhancement-Drugged Milk, Federal Government-induced STRESS, Federal Reserve-induced Homelessness/Joblessness and W-A-R-S Without End will keep us in the endless lines for maintenance treatments.

2 income homes will have to put those 2.2 kids to work as well. Productivity, people!!! Let's get crackin', or it's jail time for YOU!

This bill brings back Debtor's Prison for the first time in our history.

We suddenly give a fuck about the health of our citizens while we murder children in foreign countries we've illegally invaded and occupy.

What a shit hole this country has become. A to Z shit hole.

Bosso

[romacox]

Summery of C4L webnar with Mark Cross, Senator Baker and Representative Plakin.

Never before have we been face to face with a government who will force us to buy a product with the penalty of a fine or imprisonment. More of these types of illegal laws are in the making. The Federal Government is too big and powerful for us to stand against alone. But, like you, I am not ready to sacrifice my children and grand children's future, nor do I want to live under such Tierney myself. Never before have you been so needed by your Country. We have but a short window of opportunity before it is too late..Now is the time.

Why? Because Many States are now uniting with other States, and saying that they will not force us, the people, to abide by any law that is unconstitutional. . They will not imprison or fine us for any Constitutionally illegal law. The Feds. will protest, but if there are enough States involved to protect each other, they will not be able to strip us of our freedoms even if they pass more of these illegal laws. Here is what is needed from you:

1. Please support these 3 bills in the Florida House:

•House HM19 / Senate SM 96 HM19 serves as a notice and a demand by the people of the state of Florida as expressed through their legislature to the Federal Government to cease and desist from going beyond the scope of and issuing mandates beyond it's constitutionally delegated powers. It also reasserts Florida's sovereignty under the 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States.
•House HB 21 / Senate SB 98 -- The Firearms Freedom Act seeks to provide "that specified firearms, firearm accessories, and ammunition for personal use manufactured in state are not subject to federal law or regulation" in the State of Florida.
•House HJR 37 / Senate SJR 72 -- The Health Care Freedom Act says any "law or rule shall not compel, directly or indirectly, any person, employer, or health care provider to participate in any health care system," and specifies people and employers can't be fined for not buying insurance. This bill does not ban federal programs such as Medicare and Medicaid in our state, it simply focuses on restricting the federal government from forcing Americans to participate in an insurance policy, public or private.

We seek reform in many areas including; transparency with private health insurance providers, tort reform, and better accountability to those that abuse the existing public programs such as Medicare and Medicaid. First, we must ensure that the freedom to make your decision as to what health care insurance and/or provider rests with the individual citizen. We the people can contribute to bring down health care costs by making better personal decisions such as; eating healthier, not smoking (a huge contributor to health care costs), and exercising. Synergized with efficient and responsible public policy, citizens and lawmakers can together lead the way to health care reform for all.

•Please signify your support by adding your name here http://www.flfreedom.org/

2. In the upcoming weeks you will be hearing more about this as the State of Florida moves forward on these actions. It cannot be done without your support.

3. Contact your State representatives, (be polite, firm and follow-up) and ask them to co-sponsor these bills. Find your representatives here:
http://myfloridahouse.gov/Sections/Bills/billsdetail.aspx?BillId=42147&BillNumber=hm+1
9&SessionId=64 We need a 60% vote to get these bills passed (as per the Florida Constitution). Right now most of the activity is in the Florida Senat.

4. Stay informed. It is also crutial to make sure we elect a States Attorney in this next general election that will support these Bills. As individuals we cannot stand against the Feds when they come against these laws. That will best be done by the Florida States Attorney. Lets us unite, and keep each other informed. That is the crtial key here...unity.

[MelissaWV]

Nebraska Sen. Ben Nelson, after securing a sweetheart deal for his state as part of the health insurance reform bill, said Tuesday that three other senators have told him they want to bargain for the same kind of special treatment.


The Senate health care reform bill cleared a pair of hurdles Tuesday, putting Democrats halfway through a series of key votes and another big step closer to passing the bill by Christmas Eve.


The next vote is slated for Wednesday afternoon. The bill appears to have the momentum and support to push it through following months of intense negotiations -- though it looks a lot different than it did when two Senate committees first considered it.

To get all 58 Democrats and two independents on board, Reid, among other things, had to drop a government-run insurance option and a Medicare buy-in and had to increase taxes by $25 billion more than planned, bringing the total tax increases to $518 billion.

"Our bill will bring needed relief to millions and millions of Americans (who) wake up every day without health insurance, or waking up every day afraid they're going to lose their health insurance," Reid said.


Once the Senate passes its plan, it'll have to negotiate with the House, which passed a very different bill. Senate Democrats have warned the House not to tinker with their version, or else it might not get the necessary votes to clear the Senate a final time.

(emphasis mine) It may be inevitable, but it hasn't happened yet. People are leading themselves to think so, and if the anger stops now, representatives might think it's gone altogether. Beyond all this, there are the states to support. There may be a way or two out of this.

[Liberty Star]

Well, the Truth is how business counterfeited the concepts of benefits, bonuses and perks in order to skirt real money created by "a days worth of pay for a days worth of work." This managing of an inequity between employees was made possible not by a "solution" created by "Health Insurance," no; but, the concept of Health Insurance was created as a scheme so companies could manage the inequity.
Now that the idea of total healthcare for all is being bantied about, this being the notion of a days worth of pay for a days worth of work, health insurance is just the wrong way to go about it!
In other words, why have unnecessary middle men* involved in the process? But it is too late! Who is to blame for all this though? As usual, it is us!
Stop blaming others and start taking responsibility!
*One belief in free enterprise is that losses result in higher quality and better productivity. With health insurance, the healthcare industry would never lose money meaning that its product would end up being of poor quality while being less productive.

Ok, I take responsibility. But for the record I did not support decision to liberate Iraq.

Now how do we start the motion to impeach Obama?

[roho76]

I am not paying that. Period. This is my line in the sand. I'm glad I get paid 1099 right now.

[Dianne]

That's all this Bill is, a Bill to increase earnings by insurance company and pharms.. Can you imagine? Everyone must buy health insurance or risk going to prison. This will allow for the 18 year old's and up, to subsidize the coverage of those who cannot afford to pay. Those who cannot afford the coverage will have their coverage paid for by everyone else, in the form of high insurance premiums. I would imagine an 18 year old will have to pay the same premium as a 50 year old. All bottom line fantastic profit for the insurance companies.... wooooooooooooooooooot everyone by my product or go to jail !!!!

Of course, that is what I hear about it. No one knows, as no one in the Congress has read the bill... they just take a bribe and vote for it. Do I hear "taxation without representation"?

[Jamsie 567]

I will not be buying Health Insurance and I don't think I am the only one.

[GunnyFreedom]

I am not paying that. Period. This is my line in the sand. I'm glad I get paid 1099 right now.

I posted the same nearly word for word to Facebook, and said further that the day the President signs this abomination into "law," on that day, I will begin filling sandbags and reloading ammo.

[YumYum]

the penalty for not having the insurance is a tax increase
the pentalty for not paying the tax penalty is jail time
thus not having insurance will land you in jail.

FEMA camps. I was looking at photos of the FEMA camp in Alaska. It has a beautiful view of the mountains. I love salmon. I'll need warm clothing, though.

[torchbearer]

FEMA camps. I was looking at photos of the FEMA camp in Alaska. It has a beautiful view of the mountains. I love salmon. I'll need warm clothing, though.

if you don't like cold weather- ask them for a transfer to the one in Lafayette, Louisiana.
They actually used left-over FEMA trailors from the Katrina crap as the housing, it has a big white fence around it with barbed wire for the trimmings.

They used to race horses there, so maybe you can spend your time looking for buried horseshoes.