Female US soldiers raped by other US soldiers

[Reason]

Female US soldiers raped

YouTube - Rape in the ranks: Female US soldiers raped by comrades fight war on two fronts (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFXQ0lOcLVw)

[tangent4ronpaul]

YO SLUTS!
Join the army
See the world
Get gang banged regularly
It's kinda like the USO, but different....

:rolleyes:

Why don't they just start a "brothel corps"...
Yo Ho's - all the crack you can smoke,,,,

-t

[kathy88]

YO SLUTS!
Join the army
See the world
Get gang banged regularly
It's kinda like the USO, but different....

:rolleyes:

Why don't they just start a "brothel corps"...
Yo Ho's - all the crack you can smoke,,,,

-t



Not even remotely funny.

[Liberty Star]

This was in news recently:


Judge sets trial date for Iraq KBR rape case

A federal judge has set a 2011 trial date for a lawsuit from a Texas woman alleging she was gang-raped by co-workers while employed by a Halliburton Co. ...
www.khou.com/.../Judge-sets-trial-date-for-Iraq-rape-case-78812092.html


LaVena Johnson: Raped and Murdered on a Military Base in Iraq

By David A. Love
March 3, 2009.
Military authorities claimed she committed suicide in her tent in Iraq, but autopsies revealed she had been brutally attacked and raped.
http://www.alternet.org/rights/129646



Is there any fatalist psyche resulting from being in the middle of violence at play here behind these rising rape cases?

Does the forced action of killing in a war violence has any similarity with forced action of rape?


On a related note, this was also in news recently:

BBC: British soldiers accused of raping under-age Iraqi boy

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=219036

[ramallamamama]

YO SLUTS!
Join the army
See the world
Get gang banged regularly
It's kinda like the USO, but different....



Why don't they just start a "brothel corps"...
Yo Ho's - all the crack you can smoke,,,,

-t

Why do you hate women so much?

[ClayTrainor]

This is sad.

I'm not against women in the military, but this type of thing is always on my mind, when the topic is brought up.

I figured women would have to worry about Rape when they get captured but, apparently they have to worry about it with their fellow soldiers as well. :(

Very sad stuff.

[Bruno]

If the military responded to this issue appropriately, then the rapes within the ranks would decline dramatically.

[cheapseats]

If the military responded to this issue appropriately, then the rapes within the ranks would decline dramatically.

Castration and an 'R' tattooed on their foreheads or a bullet between the eyes, either of those would work.

What did you have in mind?

[Bruno]

Castration and an 'R' tattooed on their foreheads or a bullet between the eyes, either of those would work.

What did you have in mind?

OMG! :eek: You read my mind! :rolleyes:

did you even watch the video?

[cheapseats]

OMG! :eek: You read my mind! :rolleyes:

did you even watch the video?

Did.

Given conditions on the ground, I am inclined to go with castration and an 'R' tattoo rather than a bullet between the eyes. Leave those fuckers on the front lines for the duration of our peacemaking in the Middle East.

If they wanna come home, put a bullet through the R on their fuckin' foreheads.

In my opinion, ABUSE OF POWER should be added to PREMEDITATION as Special Circumstances warranting the Death Penalty.

That goes likewise for Corrupt Officials and Cops.

[Bruno]

Did.

Given conditions on the ground, I am inclined to go with castration and an 'R' tattoo rather than a bullet between the eyes. Leave those fuckers on the front lines for the duration of our peacemaking in the Middle East.

If they wanna come home, put a bullet through the R on their fuckin' foreheads.

In my opinion, ABUSE OF POWER should be added to PREMEDITATION as Special Circumstances warranting the Death Penalty.

That goes likewise for Corrupt Officials and Cops.

Sorry, I thought you were being sarcastic.

That's extreme imo, but they could begin by actually listening to the accuser, investigating, and prosecuting to the fullest extent of the law instead of brushing off the accusations and just acting like rape is status quo and there is nothing that can be done.

[FrankRep]

"1 in 3 Female Soldiers are Raped or Sexually Assaulted by Fellow Servicemen"

Damn.

[cheapseats]

"1 of 3 female soldiers are sexually assaulted in the military." damn.
l


ONE IN EVERY THREE FEMALE AMERICAN SOLDIERS IS RAPED BY A MALE AMERICAN SOLDIER.

[Dunedain]

One of the reasons women were not eligible to be in the military in the past.

[cheapseats]

Sorry, I thought you were being sarcastic.

Only about the front line part. We cannot FORCE THEM TO STAY THERE, the way they force women to stay down with their legs spread so AMERICAN SOLDIERS can FORCE THEIR DICKS inside WOMEN, PLURAL against their wishes and wills. Pro-Choice: FRONT LINE or FEDERAL PENITENTIARY.




That's extreme imo,

IMO, so is the crime. So is its frequency of occurrence.

I stand by these words:



In my opinion, ABUSE OF POWER should be added to PREMEDITATION as Special Circumstances warranting the Death Penalty.

That goes likewise for Corrupt Officials and Cops.




...but they could begin by actually listening to the accuser, investigating, and prosecuting to the fullest extent of the law instead of brushing off the accusations and just acting like rape is status quo and there is nothing that can be done.

Same Old Same Old. Howz that workin' out for us on other fronts?

These Perpetrators are POND SCUM.

My way cuts to the chase. Your way commences Proceedings that permit POND SCUM to swashbuckle freely for YEARS while the WRONGED are dragged through the Emotional Wringer.

My way cuts to the chase. Your way costs lots and lots and lots of time and money.

We ain't got much of either.

Play softball, and you KNOWINGLY drag Bad Stuff out and facilitate its reoccurrence.

Play HARDBALL, and you get Change.

NO, Faux Peacenik Barack Hussein Obama, that does NOT mean ordering missiles into Yemen while you hob nob in Copenhagen. Again.

[lester1/2jr]

I've heard horror stories along these lines from women in the military. it's a big problem

[Bruno]

One of the reasons women were not eligible to be in the military in the past.

Because the military never intended to prosecute rapists in their ranks?

[Dunedain]

Because the military never intended to prosecute rapists in their ranks?

Right, that isn't what the military is supposed to be concerned with. You've got bigger problems when your men are being shot at. This is why women still aren't allowed on subs. Imagine the nonsense that would go on living in close quarters all the time. The military is where people want to be trained to kill other people.

[RM918]

Rape is a very, very complex issue. False accusations happen and are far from anomalies, and I would not want to trust the government to be the arbitrators of a, 'HAHA!, CUT OFF ALL THEIR DICKS!' policy. Kneejerk reactionism is not the way to handle it.

They usually boil down to he-said-she-saids, for one, and even a rape accusation can totally and utterly ruin a man's life even if he's acquitted. The only way they can disprove an accusation is if the women outright came out and say they lied or the evidence(where there is usually none) directly disproves it, where they then get slapped with 'filing a false police report' even though they tried to ruin an innocent man's life and doom him to a life in the rape pens for nothing but her own whims.

For a sensitive issue like that, barbaric vengeance as a form of grieving is far too draconian.

[cheapseats]

Rape is a very, very complex issue.

Rationalization. Moral Relativism.

[cheapseats]

l
l

PENTAGON IS LIKE VATICAN
MILITARY BRASS, LIKE POPE
l
l

[Dunedain]

The military is designed to prevent foreigners from invading our lands and raping women on American soil.

Unfortunately, the military doesn't perform this function whatsoever.

[cheapseats]

...CUT OFF ALL THEIR DICKS!' policy. Kneejerk reactionism is not the way to handle it.

Their BALLS, not their dicks.

You'll agree they aren't being rightly used, I trust, by RAPISTS?

That people are sometimes falsely accused of crimes does not mean that sometimes crimes are not unambiguously committed by grossly guilty PERPETRATORS.

[Bruno]

Right, that isn't what the military is supposed to be concerned with. You've got bigger problems when your men are being shot at. This is why women still aren't allowed on subs. Imagine the nonsense that would go on living in close quarters all the time. The military is where people want to be trained to kill other people.


Then the brig wouldn't be full of soldiers who are being held for crimes that the military "isn't supposed to be concerned with". Was the soldier's commanding officer in this video overly concerned with being shot at when he raped her twice? If he was dodging bullets at the time, I'm sure that would have been the last thing on his mind.

Dorms in college are filled with co-ed college students, and rapes are far less common on campus (though they certainly do occur) than the numbers provided in this report.

[cheapseats]

The military is designed to prevent foreigners from invading our lands and raping women on American soil.

Unfortunately, the military doesn't perform this function whatsoever.


Ft. Hood Massacre, you say? FOURTEEN American soldiers on an American Army in AMERICA?

By jove, thirty thousand more troops to Afganistan!

Has sexist-like-an-Islamic-fundamentalist Barack Hussein Obama said ONE FUCKING WORD about rape of American soldiers by American soldiers, about increasing violence against American women on American soil, or about increasing police brutality against BOTH genders of the citizenry?

HEY MAINSTREAM MEDIA, how 'bout some o' that Copenhagen Klieg over here?

[RM918]

Their BALLS, not their dicks.

You'll agree they aren't being rightly used, I trust, by RAPISTS?

That people are sometimes falsely accused of crimes does not mean that sometimes crimes are not unambiguously committed by grossly guilty PERPETRATORS.

Still barbaric, even if guilt is somehow proven conclusively without bias. Why not cut off the hands of thieves? Are you going to rip out the ovaries of every woman that commits statutory rape?

[Anti Federalist]

Right, that isn't what the military is supposed to be concerned with. You've got bigger problems when your men are being shot at. This is why women still aren't allowed on subs. Imagine the nonsense that would go on living in close quarters all the time. The military is where people want to be trained to kill other people.

That^^

[cheapseats]

Still barbaric, even if guilt is somehow proven conclusively without bias.

SO IS THE CRIME.

Let the punishment Suit the crime.

Seize the ill-gotten gains of White Collar Criminals before you pack them of to Standard Issue federal penitentiaries. I'll bet half a dozen of them won't have to be raped before we have a public outcry for reform of our DRACONIAN prison system.

I am harsh, but egalitarian.




Why not cut off the hands of thieves?

Coupla things. I can TOTALLY understand, for example, a parent stealing to feed their children. Not saying it's Right, saying I understand it. I would, wouldn't you? Stealing money and jewels in order to be instantly rich at someone else's expense is quite another set of circumstances.

I don't know whether there are countries that still engage in the practice of cutting off thieves' hands, but there certainly WERE. And we are ALL about Going Global. It would be interesting if we could compare THEFT statistics and especially REPEAT OFFENDER statistics between countries that do and do not cut off the hands.

Might be worth cutting one hand off Repeat Offenders. I dunno. What do we think? Seems to me it would undermine productivity more than anything else. Tattoo a 'T' on their Right hand. Green.

But speak to me not of BARBARISM in a country that:

a.) lingers casually at WAR,
b.) resurrected TORTURE as an acceptable warring practice, and
c.) not only hosts but fosters highly respected, highly paid quote-unquote Professionals who ROUTINELY TRAFFIC IN MISERY.




Are you going to rip out the ovaries of every woman that commits statutory rape?


Being underage does not automatically imply absence of willingness.

Has even one high school boy come forward as having been traumatized by an event that was forced upon him? By contrast, I have lost track of the number of guys who have wistfully sighed that they wish Miss So-and-So in whatever grade of their formative years would have "done" THEM.

[RM918]

The crime, however, tends to be shaky and must be seriously considered. For one, I'd be very interested in these so-called 'statistics' straight from the 'Pentagon', because the only place I'm seeing this 1-in-3 statistic is from a woman named Helen Benedict who's study encompassed a pool of about five-thousand soldiers who were all applying for PTSD benefits, not the overall military.

There's a reason why we have a protection against cruel & unusual punishment, and I wouldn't support cutting off someone's balls or ripping out someone's ovaries, because it is absolutely barbaric in any circumstances.

As for statutory rape, I realize the distinction is certainly different but the double-standards remain, which is why I'm always disturbed when I witness this sort of thing. A 13 year old boy is 'willing' so the female is simply a hot 'cougar', but a 13 year old girl can never be willing because she's a poor delicate flower that must be protected at all costs, while the male perpetrator is a soulless pedophile driven only by lust and greed. I, for one, think they're both pedophiles and find both acts just as sick, no matter if you think a 13-year-old boy 'wanted' it or not, that's not the point.

[cheapseats]

The crime, however, tends to be shaky and must be seriously considered. For one, I'd be very interested in these so-called 'statistics' straight from the 'Pentagon', because the only place I'm seeing this 1-in-3 statistic is from a woman named Helen Benedict who's study encompassed a pool of about five-thousand soldiers who were all applying for PTSD benefits, not the overall military.

I am an American. I am a big fan of INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.

YOU ARE ENGAGING IN RATIONALIZATION AND MORAL RELATIVISM.




There's a reason why we have a protection against cruel & unusual punishment,


Tell that to non-violent, non-dealer POT SMOKERS who have been languishing in federal penitentiaries FOR YEARS, while NYC's ex-top cop Bernard Kerik -- who plead guilty to SEVEN federal charges -- was granted permission, by FEDERAL JUDGE Stephen Robinson to go home "for the holidays" after spending THREE WHOLE WEEKS in jail.




...and I wouldn't support cutting off someone's balls or ripping out someone's ovaries, because it is absolutely barbaric in any circumstances.


But Torture Lite and War 4 Profit, you're okay with those?




As for statutory rape, I realize the distinction is certainly different but the double-standards remain, which is why I'm always disturbed when I witness this sort of thing. A 13 year old boy is 'willing' so the female is simply a hot 'cougar', but a 13 year old girl can never be willing because she's a poor delicate flower that must be protected at all costs, while the male perpetrator is a soulless pedophile driven only by lust and greed. I, for one, think they're both pedophiles and find both acts just as sick, no matter if you think a 13-year-old boy 'wanted' it or not, that's not the point.

Double Standards R Us.

Are you strident about protecting ALL Little/Lesser/Weaker People from Bigger/Badder/Stronger People, or only about protecting Guys from Everything?

[klamath]

Obviously a lot of people are commenting on a story that the MSM fed them but have never been in the military. Yes Rapes occur just as they do in civilian life. The military takes it very seriously as well as sexual harressment. There are mandiitory antirape and anti harressment classes multiple times a year. There are special reporting channels set up to report rape and harressment so you can avoid the standard chain of command if the rapist/haresser is your supperior. And yes this fails as well like anywhere else with human failing. This can work against women in the military as well. I know a female soldier that was our anti sexual harressment NCO that told a story about getting newly deployed to Korea. One of the soldiers touched her behind and she dwelt with it like any women would with a unwelcome advance. Her NCOIC saw it happen and filed a charge against the guy against her wishes. She was immediately schuned as a women that would file charges for any event. Charges can be filed for calling a female soldier a "babe" or "chick". Soldiers are not even susposed to show any emotional physical touching while in uniform.
And yes there are female soldiers that use this system to get at ex lovers. I have seen guys get falsely accused and punished. This will be on their record and it will be part of the harrassment statistics.
When I was deployed in Bosnia a married female solder started sleeping with another guy until the husband who was also a soldier and deployed found out. To get back the husband stole the males soldiers weapon and threw it in the dumpster. As a weapon is a sensitive item the whole FOB went into lockdown until the weapon was found. Every two hours for 24 hours the entire base was lined up and ordered to search the base for the weapon. Minefields be damned.
Finially the husband admitted it and they found the weapn in a landfill off base.

[cheapseats]

Yes Rapes occur just as they do in civilian life.

Seems like we begin with the premise that there is an oh-well-nuthin-you-can-do-about-the-weather acceptance of a threshold rape statistic that comes with American territory, or maybe "simply" with Living Female.

That comes from bein' soft on some criminals and beyond harsh on others. The former repeat their crimes, the latter go on to commit worse. Stipulated that there are no hard and fast rules, but there IS Common Sense backed up by empirical evidence.

Hookers shall go to jail but Emperor Club stud Eliot Spitzer shall be elevated from State Governor to National Pundit?

[RM918]

Tell that to non-violent, non-dealer POT SMOKERS who have been languishing in federal penitentiaries FOR YEARS, while NYC's ex-top cop Bernard Kerik -- who plead guilty to SEVEN federal charges -- was granted permission, by FEDERAL JUDGE Stephen Robinson to go home "for the holidays" after spending THREE WHOLE WEEKS in jail.

Where did I say I agreed with any of this?


But Torture Lite and War 4 Profit, you're okay with those?

This is especially random, especially coming from the person that wants to let the government castrate people.


Double Standards R Us.

Are you strident about protecting ALL Little/Lesser/Weaker People from Bigger/Badder/Stronger People, or only about protecting Guys from Everything?

It's my position that I think we need to apply things fairly to everyone. I'd rather we not go back to branding people with a big 'A' for being an adulterer or stoning religious dissidents, but if you want to be barbaric you should at least be barbaric to everyone and not single anyone out. The world has far too many shades of grey to brand someone as 'evil' and another as 'pure innocence', so we should instead stick to the law and apply it to everyone, equally.

[Stop Making Cents]

First of all, women have no place in the military. I've heard from friends in the military that everyone is sleeping with everyone, gang bangs, the whole thing. Doesn't matter if they're married or not. Women simply do not belong in the military, it creates all sorts of issues.

But hey "we're all equal" so we have to let women, *****, and 6 legged munchkins on the front lines.

[cheapseats]

I would interject my firm belief that Women In Combat is another brand of LUNACY.

CRAZINESS, one of our surpluses.

[RM918]

First of all, women have no place in the military. I've heard from friends in the military that everyone is sleeping with everyone, gang bangs, the whole thing. Doesn't matter if they're married or not. Women simply do not belong in the military, it creates all sorts of issues.

But hey "we're all equal" so we have to let women, *****, and 6 legged munchkins on the front lines.

Also the fact that OVERALL requirements for the entirety of the service have been lowered so that more women can enlist and training has been significantly bogged down to lower the female drop-out rates.

But, I still think women should be allowed to join, even put them on the front lines, IF they can meet the same standards as their male counterparts. If they can reach that level and still want to jump in, I see no reason not to allow it so long as they're held to the same standards as men.

[cheapseats]

First of all, women have no place in the military.

At all?

We best get on that Draft thing, then. Buncha y'all need to quit typing and start packing.

[cheapseats]

But, I still think women should be allowed to join, even put them on the front lines, IF they can meet the same standards as their male counterparts.

Meaning, if they can single-handedly repel Rapists in their midst?

[Anti Federalist]

At all?

We best get on that Draft thing, then. Buncha y'all need to quit typing and start packing.

No need for that.

There are more than enough men to fill the ranks to provide a constitutional defense force.

You're right though, if empire is the continued goal then it would require a draft.

Which would be met with resistance.

Which would destroy any plans of military empire.

[cheapseats]

Where did I say I agreed with any of this?

But the travesties of injustice ARE ongoing. Why get all milquetoast with Rapists?




This is especially random, especially coming from the person that wants to let the government castrate people.

Nice try.

Torture Lite and War 4 Profit are very much on point while we linger AT WAR and authorize Enhanced Interrogation Techniques.

War 4 Profit is why all those soldiers are killing, being killed, spreading democracy, raping others or KILLING THEMSELVES in the Middle East. The Suicide Rate is another Carpet Sweeper Under. I need a bleedin' LADDER to even SEE over the edge of the rug.




It's my position that I think we need to apply things fairly to everyone. I'd rather we not go back to branding people with a big 'A' for being an adulterer or stoning religious dissidents, but if you want to be barbaric you should at least be barbaric to everyone and not single anyone out. The world has far too many shades of grey to brand someone as 'evil' and another as 'pure innocence', so we should instead stick to the law and apply it to everyone, equally.

That "Pure Innocence" does not exist in the Human Race does NOT mean that Evil cannot be identified.

I'm tellin' ya, RATIONALIZATION AND MORAL RELATIVISM.

[cheapseats]

There are more than enough men to fill the ranks to provide a constitutional defense force.

Constitution provides for Well Regulated Militia, too. WHERE ARE THEY?

Militia that hides in plain sight rather than bobs and weaves in the woods would likely have a mitigating effect on Rape.




You're right though, if empire is the continued goal then it would require a draft.

Which would be met with resistance.

Which would destroy any plans of military empire.

Which is why they do it in palatable steps that are met with Appeasement. Like Hitler.

Trouble is, APPEASEMENT NEVER APPEASES.

[Andrew-Austin]

I guess the soldiers figured that since this war/occupation made it okay for them to kill people, it also must make it okay to rape as well.

[cheapseats]

I guess the soldiers figured that since this war/occupation made it okay for them to kill people, it also must make it okay to rape as well.

Top, down. Trickle sideways.

Wait til the world's current crop of KIDS reaches Age of Emancipation. THAT oughtta be a REAL showstopper.

[RM918]

But the travesties of injustice ARE ongoing. Why get all milquetoast with Rapists?



I don't consider letting rapists rot in jail for the rest of their lives as 'milquetoast'. But whether or not I do, I don't see how this makes me automatically support cruel punishment when I'm against other cruel punishments? I'm merely pointing out the overemotional demands of maiming in response to a crime as immoral because it happens to be the current subject.



Nice try.

Torture Lite and War 4 Profit are very much on point while we linger AT WAR and authorize Enhanced Interrogation Techniques.

War 4 Profit is why all those soldiers are killing, being killed, spreading democracy, raping others or KILLING THEMSELVES in the Middle East. The Suicide Rate is another Carpet Sweeper Under. I need a bleedin' LADDER to even SEE over the edge of the rug.

Again, what does being FOR warmongering and torture have to do with being AGAINST castration of rapists? As in, why is my latter view in support of the former? Again, I haven't brought those things up, to which I'm obviously against being on this board, because being for or against them is not the subject of this conversation.


That "Pure Innocence" does not exist in the Human Race does NOT mean that Evil cannot be identified.

I'm tellin' ya, RATIONALIZATION AND MORAL RELATIVISM.

I support treating all crimes equally regardless of the gender of the perpetrator, and repeating those words constantly isn't really supporting an argument.

[cheapseats]

I don't consider letting rapists rot in jail for the rest of their lives as 'milquetoast'.

In my worldview, locking people up for lifetimes is CRUEL AND INHUMAN. It is also FISCAL FOLLY.




But whether or not I do, I don't see how this makes me automatically support cruel punishment when I'm against other cruel punishments? I'm merely pointing out the overemotional demands of maiming in response to a crime as immoral because it happens to be the current subject.

The point is not whether you SUPPORT other barbary, rather, that you LIVE WITH IT. As a price of doin' business. As an unpleasantry of being alive. No one but Sickos and Government Officials wake up in the morning wondering who they can punish.

Society rises to the occasion of shoveling its own shit, or not. If it's OR NOT, that Society has no business marching around butting into the affairs of Other Societies. Such as are situated in the Middle East. What has war in the Middle East to do with Rape? You tell me. It's the scene of the crime. Violence begets violence. It either begets violence AGAINST the Violent, or MORE violence against the Victims. That's Life. I don't make the rules.




Again, what does being FOR warmongering and torture have to do with being AGAINST castration of rapists? As in, why is my latter view in support of the former? Again, I haven't brought those things up, to which I'm obviously against being on this board, because being for or against them is not the subject of this conversation.

I'm not saying you support Torture Lite and War 4 Profit. I'm pointing out that you LIVE WITH IT.




I support treating all crimes equally regardless of the gender of the perpetrator, and repeating those words constantly isn't really supporting an argument.

Do you think Eliot Spitzer belongs in jail rather than on national TV and in major newspapers? Or do you think we should LEGALIZE PROSTITUTION?

That way, the Rapists it seems you would coddle would have outlets for their inability to manage their VIOLENT STREAKS, without FORCING THEMSELVES upon the Unwilling But Proximate And Compromised.

[angelatc]

If the military responded to this issue appropriately, then the rapes within the ranks would decline dramatically.

If the women were allowed to carry weapons at all times the problem would take care of itself.

[angelatc]

"1 in 3 Female Soldiers are Raped or Sexually Assaulted by Fellow Servicemen"

Damn.

I take that "sexually assaulted" phrase with a grain of salt. I'll bet that if a guy makes an off-color joke or tries a really bad pick up line, the radicals count that as sexual harassment.

[Old Ducker]

In my worldview, locking people up for lifetimes is CRUEL AND INHUMAN. It is also FISCAL FOLLY.

If your life, or the life of someone you cared about, were destroyed by a rape, I should think you'd believe there was no punishment too severe for the perpetrator.

[cheapseats]

I take that "sexually assaulted" phrase with a grain of salt. I'll bet that if a guy makes an off-color joke or tries a really bad pick up line, the radicals count that as sexual harassment.

There is NO QUESTION that Litigiousness and Political Correctness are outta hand in America. I've said it before and I'll KEEP saying it. Guys have been primarily In Control throughout our history. COLLECTIVE DEFAULT MALE THINKING GOT US HERE.

Attempted Murder is not Murder. We do not treat them the same.

Sexual Harassment is not Rape. "We" do not threat them the same, either. Sexual Harassment has a bevy of Politicos, many of them MEN, makin' money and livin' high off Political Correctness.

Rape is punished discriminately based on SocioEconomic lines.

Rape is Rape, FORCING YOUR HARD DICK INSIDE AN UNWILLING WOMAN VIA SUPERIOR PHYSICAL FORCE. Or chemical trickery.

There are men on this Board who have Daughters. What say they?

[Met Income]

Where does one man derive the right to remove another man's body part? From where?

[cheapseats]

Where does one man derive the right to remove another man's body part? From where?

GUYS and POLLYANNAS are fixated on Castration because GUYS are funny about their dicks and POLLYANNAS are Rubber Neckers in spite of themselves.

OBVIOUSLY, when we can't even bring ourselves to prosecute Corrupt Officials and White Collar Criminals -- think of their 'poor' faaamilies -- we aren't gonna start CASTRATING RAPISTS.

But anyone who doesn't concede that, just like Common Men are Warhawks' canon fodder, Common Women are Society's canon fodder is either:

1.) Male
2.) Elite
3.) Dishonest
4.) Stupid
5.) combination thereof
6.) a Rugged Individualist who doesn't give a shit 'cuz secretly he is sure he can protect "his."

[cheapseats]

If your life, or the life of someone you cared about, were destroyed by a rape, I should think you'd believe there was no punishment too severe for the perpetrator.

I am on record as believing that ABUSE OF POWER ranks with PREMEDITATION as Special Circumstances warranting the Death Penalty.

Me, I think we need an Express Lane on Death Row.

Desperate times call for desperate measures, ain't you heard?

Like Cicero, I believe Traitors not only should but MUST be executed.

NO, I do not believe Rapists are Traitors. Or that Saddam Hussein should still be in Office.

[ramallamamama]

I am on record as believing that ABUSE OF POWER ranks with PREMEDITATION as Special Circumstances warranting the Death Penalty.

Me, I think we need an Express Lane on Death Row.

Desperate times call for desperate measures, ain't you heard?

Like Cicero, I believe Traitors not only should but MUST be executed.

Fucking ay right.

[cheapseats]

In the spirit of Dot Connecting -- always did march to my own drummer, irrespective of fashion -- the reason that blatantly Corrupt Government Officials and brazenly Unethical Robber Barons keep right on doin' what they do is 'cuz they are COMPLETELY unafraid of the weak-stomached People and COMPLETELY unafraid of the fabled System.

Ditto, Rapists.

[cheapseats]

If the women were allowed to carry weapons at all times the problem would take care of itself.


Les femmes sont tout à fait compétentes pour assurer leur légitime défense, pourvu que la loi ne les transforme pas en criminelles si elles emploient des moyens efficaces à cette fin.

>>

Women are quite able to see to their own defence, as long as the law does not transform them into criminals if they take effective measures to do so.

-- Claire Joly, Marie Latourelle, Maryse Martin, and Karen Selick

[crushingstep7]

We should all be careful about what we consider to be "rape", however.

Firing squads for the real rapists.

Maybe that's a bit extreme, but I think justice should be swift - and God should have the soonest opportunity to judge these fuckers available.

[cheapseats]

We should all be careful about what we consider to be "rape", however.

With EVERY crime.

From Moderation on message boards to Flipping the Switch, greatest care ALWAYS in meting out infractions and penalties.

Think, Solomon.




Firing squads for the real rapists.

Maybe that's a bit extreme, but I think justice should be swift - and God should have the soonest opportunity to judge these fuckers available.

I am on record as believing that Firing Squads are THE most efficacious, decorous, humane and cost-effective of Capital Punishments.

Although I see GOBS of economic stimulus in pay-per-view hangings. ;)

[Matthew Zak]

This is taboo to say this, but if the military is going to brainwash you into thinking that it's okay to kill people, with what morals are you going to resist the single strongest natural desire a man has? I know that not all men are the same, and I speak for the majority who would never under any circumstances rape a woman, but I would never kill someone either. See what I'm saying? I'm not sticking up for the people who rape people, I'm merely suggesting that they are not of the same mind or morals as someone walking down the street, you know?

[cheapseats]

This is taboo to say this, but if the military is going to brainwash you into thinking that it's okay to kill people, with what morals are you going to resist the single strongest natural desire a man has? I know that not all men are the same, and I speak for the majority who would never under any circumstances rape a woman, but I would never kill someone either. See what I'm saying? I'm not sticking up for the people who rape people, I'm merely suggesting that they are not of the same mind or morals as someone walking down the street, you know?

'Cept we have non-military Rapists aplenty, Stateside.

Mind, I agree that the United States Military is TWEAKING psyches.

MILITARY BRASS SHOULD STEP UP TO THE RESPONSIBILITY MICROPHONE.

Where's the Commander in Chief, Copenhagen? Again?

[crushingstep7]

With EVERY crime.

From Moderation on message boards to Flipping the Switch, greatest care ALWAYS in meting out infractions and penalties.

Think, Solomon.





I am on record as believing that Firing Squads are THE most efficacious, decorous, humane and cost-effective of Capital Punishments.

Although I see GOBS of economic stimulus in pay-per-view hangings. ;)




Well, I wouldn't be happy with pay-per-view hangings..
but I will agree that there are enough sick people out there who would trade their time and Federal Reserve Notes for a glimpse. Sad and disturbing. Death should not be a spectacle with mobs cheering.

In any case, one round of ammunition and 4 or 5 other blanks is enough to suffice. It should be a quiet, solemn affair. Not a word should be said in his final week.

[cheapseats]

Well, I wouldn't be happy with pay-per-view hangings..

Where's yer entrepreneurial spirit? ;)




but I will agree that there are enough sick people out there who would trade their time and Federal Reserve Notes for a glimpse. Sad and disturbing.


You know it and I know it, they'd make a bloody killing.

Advertising rates would be in the Super Bowl stratosphere.




Death should not be a spectacle with mobs cheering.

The American People were sumthin' to behold while "our" mighty Armed Forces thundered into Baghdad, eh? No, indeedy, I'll not forget that bit of bloodthirstiness in THIS lifetime.




In any case, one round of ammunition and 4 or 5 other blanks is enough to suffice. It should be a quiet, solemn affair. Not a word should be said in his final week.

Exactly. I only lately learned that one marksman has a real bullet, and that the marksmen don't know which of them HAS it. Being marksmen, all of their shots are accurate, one is deadly.

Within a hideous concept, it is very dignified.

More dignified than some of that Abu Ghraib-Gitmo bullshit, certainly.

[squarepusher]

The irnoy is we are in Afghanistan because "women are treated horribly there"

[Stary Hickory]

"1 in 3 Female Soldiers are Raped or Sexually Assaulted by Fellow Servicemen"

Damn.

1 in 3 CLAIM to be raped. This is the thing, women can and do LIE about rape. I know cases where it happened to people I know. I am all for rape prevention and punishment but the crime must be actually committed and not just claimed to have been committed.

The military will destroy a man over a mere claim of rape in many cases. When all you can prove is that two people had sex how in the world can you make a rape case out of it?

[cheapseats]

1 in 3 CLAIM to be raped. This is the thing, women can and do LIE about rape. I know cases where it happened to people I know...

And voila, back to Square One.

THE SAME CAN BE SAID OF MANY CRIMES.

Hank the Bank Paulson isn't a fuckin' Liar? Helicopter Ben? Barack Obama? These men don't lie about crimes?

A TRULY DISTURBING NUMBER OF GUYS CUT A KNEE-JERK WIDER BERTH FOR RAPE.

I'm not allowed to post my Tweets. Something about spam or censorship, I fergit. Wanna know my message to Government Officials who criminalize marijuana while booze flows and flows, licensed and taxed?

FUCK YOU. FUCK YOUR MOTHERS. FUCK THE HORSES YOU RODE IN ON.

Ditto, re: Rape Apologists.

That ought not to be ban-able, by the way. I am directing that SENTIMENT not at Board Member Stary Hickory but at a Type who, I guaran-fucking-tee, keep Libertarianism marginalized and Nanny Statehood on the march.

[cheapseats]

The irnoy is we are in Afghanistan because "women are treated horribly there"

The irony isn't lost on ME . . . and the IRNOY sends me 'round the bend. ;)

THEY will beat a woman who runs around unescorted, lest she incite a man into bringing shame upon both families. WE yell from the tops of Executive Board Rooms down to TV commercials and strip clubs, and everywhere in between: TAKE IT ALL OFF, BABY. We PROMOTE -- we manufacture and market -- provocative, come-hither, fuck-me looks.

Rape. Hmm, I dunno. Maybe she was ASKING for it. She "had it coming" for dressing just like Madison Avenue told her to dress, and admiring stares corroborated.

Murder. Hmm, I dunno. I'm not saying she had it coming, but she WAS kinda asking for it by jogging alone in the early morning hours.

It's a wonder that more men's throats aren't slit while they sleep, truth be told.

No indeedy, Protection of Women does not pass muster as rationalization for "our" sustained squandering of national resources in the Middle East.

[raiha]

1 in 3 CLAIM to be raped. This is the thing, women can and do LIE about rape. I know cases where it happened to people I know. I am all for rape prevention and punishment but the crime must be actually committed and not just claimed to have been committed.

War brutalizes people...(look at Abu Graib) Nazis and soldiers throughout history rape pillage and plunder. Sherman's lot had a good go at many of the black women they were liberating and well..those there white Southern girls were persona non grata.
Then they come home, having snapped themselves out of something they never dreamed they were capable of doing, and spend the rest of their lives troubled.
Yes women can make it up. But rape accompanies war. Rape accompanied Ajax, Aleaxander, Napoleon who were attempting to violate all boundaries. Invaders require that all resistance submit to the totality of war's conquest. The victims of war are imagined as victims of rape "Rape of Belgium" for example. Then you have the sexual language of warfare. The generals know how sex and death are related.

"You start talking about targeting or strategic command and control and, baby, that's the family jewels." General Merritt- ex director Joint Chiefs of Staff

[cheapseats]

"You start talking about targeting or strategic command and control and, baby, that's the family jewels." General Merritt- ex director Joint Chiefs of Staff

This is what the Resistance lacks, in my opinion.

Ditto, the Militia.

[Stary Hickory]

And voila, back to Square One.

THE SAME CAN BE SAID OF MANY CRIMES.

Hank the Bank Paulson isn't a fuckin' Liar? Helicopter Ben? Barack Obama? These men don't lie about crimes?

A TRULY DISTURBING NUMBER OF GUYS CUT A KNEE-JERK WIDER BERTH FOR RAPE.

I'm not allowed to post my Tweets. Something about spam or censorship, I fergit. Wanna know my message to Government Officials who criminalize marijuana while booze flows and flows, licensed and taxed?

FUCK YOU. FUCK YOUR MOTHERS. FUCK THE HORSES YOU RODE IN ON.

Ditto, re: Rape Apologists.

That ought not to be ban-able, by the way. I am directing that SENTIMENT not at Board Member Stary Hickory but at a Type who, I guaran-fucking-tee, keep Libertarianism marginalized and Nanny Statehood on the march.

You know you are unbalanced. Calling someone a rape apologist is insulting. I think it's quite disgusting to support forcibly separating a person from their freedom with NO evidence to support the action.

Apparently by insisting that an actual crime A) be committed and B) be proven as being committed before incarcerating makes a person a supporter of these types of crimes.

Unbelievable. This is what passes as intelligent discussion on these forums?

[QueenB4Liberty]

You know you are unbalanced. Calling someone a rape apologist is insulting. I think it's quite disgusting to support forcibly separating a person from their freedom with NO evidence to support the action.

Apparently by insisting that an actual crime A) be committed and B) be proven as being committed before incarcerating makes a person a supporter of these types of crimes.

Unbelievable. This is what passes as intelligent discussion on these forums?

If sex is not consensual, it's rape. This goes for everyone: man vs man, man vs woman, woman vs man, woman vs woman.

[cheapseats]

You know you are unbalanced. Calling someone a rape apologist is insulting.


I am directing that SENTIMENT not at Board Member Stary Hickory but at a Type who, I guaran-fucking-tee, keep Libertarianism marginalized and Nanny Statehood on the march.


Being FEMALE in a Society that turns a half-blind eye to Rape AND Murder of women ALSO feels mega insulting.




I think it's quite disgusting to support forcibly separating a person from their freedom with NO evidence to support the action.

Apparently by insisting that an actual crime A) be committed and B) be proven as being committed before incarcerating makes a person a supporter of these types of crimes.



I am an American. I am a big fan of INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.

YOU ARE ENGAGING IN RATIONALIZATION AND MORAL RELATIVISM.





Unbelievable. This is what passes as intelligent discussion on these forums?

I'm gonna guess that you didn't "read ahead" before shooting off yer mouth. Not that you'd ever admit it, a'course. Being a White Guy in America means never having to admit you're wrong, never having to say you're sorry, and never having to stop for directions, right?

Often wrong but never in doubt. Gee Dub was like that.

[libertygrl]

Not even remotely funny.

DITTO! :mad:

[Stary Hickory]

If sex is not consensual, it's rape. This goes for everyone: man vs man, man vs woman, woman vs man, woman vs woman.

I'm sorry how is this relevant to anything I have said? Simply defining the word rape in a post in no way means it's ok to lock people up with no evidence.

[cheapseats]

I'm sorry how is this relevant to anything I have said? Simply defining the word rape in a post in no way means it's ok to lock people up with no evidence.


I repeat:

I am an American. I am a big fan of INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.

YOU ARE ENGAGING IN RATIONALIZATION AND MORAL RELATIVISM.

[cheapseats]

If sex is not consensual, it's rape. This goes for everyone: man vs man, man vs woman, woman vs man, woman vs woman.

EZPZ.

Nuthin' discriminatory about it.

[Stary Hickory]

I repeat:

I am an American. I am a big fan of INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.

YOU ARE ENGAGING IN RATIONALIZATION AND MORAL RELATIVISM.

Then why define rape in a post, in response to something I wrote? Was your point that I did not understand what rape is? If so, I find that hard to believe....

If you have a point to make please do so.....otherwise don't reply to my posts with nonsense.

[cheapseats]

Then why define rape in a post, in response to something I wrote? Was your point that I did not understand what rape is? If so, I find that hard to believe....

If you have a point to make please do so.....otherwise don't reply to my posts with nonsense.


You are not a Careful Reader. Quit while you're behind, that is my suggestion.

[Liberty Star]

Rape is such a repugnant crime, punishment has to be severe enough and made public for it to be truly deterrant for others. What they have currently is obviously not working.




The irnoy is we are in Afghanistan because "women are treated horribly there"

Even bigger irony is that women there had way more rights and freedoms before we started funding/arming jihadi extremists few years back to save Afghanistan from falling into the hands of secular sicialist Russian allied forces.

But good point.

[QueenB4Liberty]

I'm sorry how is this relevant to anything I have said? Simply defining the word rape in a post in no way means it's ok to lock people up with no evidence.

Well consent is an element of rape. If consent is missing, it isn't rape. Just like if premeditation is missing, it isn't murder. I'm just wondering how much "evidence" you want. If someone is raped, how exactly do you want them to "prove it" besides telling you it happened?

[RM918]

Being FEMALE in a Society that turns a half-blind eye to Rape AND Murder of women ALSO feels mega insulting.

This is total and utter crap.

Rape accusations are treated EXTREMELY seriously, I'd argue just as seriously if not more-so than murder. Rapists are already treated as more horrific than murderers, and an accusation can easily ruin lives. To claim that women being raped and murdered isn't taken seriously is an outright lie, society structured as it is that's in fact quite the opposite. Most victims of violent crime are, in fact, men. Missing women are regularly showcased in the MSM. The sentiment of 'women and children first' is far from gone in society, and to claim that no-one cares when women are assaulted but suddenly DO care when men are assaulted is utterly facetious.

Honestly, if the genders were switched on military deaths we'd have come back from both of the wars years ago.

[Met Income]

GUYS and POLLYANNAS are fixated on Castration because GUYS are funny about their dicks and POLLYANNAS are Rubber Neckers in spite of themselves.

OBVIOUSLY, when we can't even bring ourselves to prosecute Corrupt Officials and White Collar Criminals -- think of their 'poor' faaamilies -- we aren't gonna start CASTRATING RAPISTS.

But anyone who doesn't concede that, just like Common Men are Warhawks' canon fodder, Common Women are Society's canon fodder is either:

1.) Male
2.) Elite
3.) Dishonest
4.) Stupid
5.) combination thereof
6.) a Rugged Individualist who doesn't give a shit 'cuz secretly he is sure he can protect "his."

That's all well and good. My point remains, we have no real right to castrate another person.

[Liberty Star]

The crime, however, tends to be shaky and must be seriously considered. For one, I'd be very interested in these so-called 'statistics' straight from the 'Pentagon', because the only place I'm seeing this 1-in-3 statistic is from a woman named Helen Benedict who's study encompassed a pool of about five-thousand soldiers who were all applying for PTSD benefits, not the overall military.


Following shocking claim was made last year, the article was written by Democrat Congresswoman Herman but I don't believe stats cited were contradicted by Pentagon:

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-oe-harman31mar31,0,3129956.story

[cheapseats]

This is total and utter crap.

Spoken like a MAN. What the hell do you know what it's like to be female in America?

How many college co-eds were murdered last year. Any idea?




Rape accusations are treated EXTREMELY seriously, I'd argue just as seriously if not more-so than murder.

That would AGAIN speak to DOING IT WRONG.




Rapists are already treated as more horrific than murderers,


On what planet?



.
..and an accusation can easily ruin lives.


Bearing False Witness is ALSO a crime. We don't punish that adequately, EITHER. Or we wouldn't have so much of it, EITHER.





To claim that women being raped and murdered isn't taken seriously is an outright lie, society structured as it is that's in fact quite the opposite.


Who gives a fuck how it's taken? People claim to be against war. To claim that rape and murder of American women in America IS ADDRESSED seriously -- as in, with intent to put a stop to it -- is BULLSHIT.




Most victims of violent crime are, in fact, men.

Committed by men as well, yes?




Missing women are regularly showcased in the MSM.


For profit as much as for crime solving. One Laci Petersen per SCORES of Unknowns. Nancy Grace, puh-leez.

I would draw your attention to the REGULARITY with which women are simply DISPOSED OF.




The sentiment of 'women and children first' is far from gone in society,


Good one.




and to claim that no-one cares when women are assaulted but suddenly DO care when men are assaulted is utterly facetious.


No one made that claim.




Honestly, if the genders were switched on military deaths we'd have come back from both of the wars years ago.

Honestly, if the genders were switched in Global Leadership, we'd get into far fewer wars in the first place.

[vegaspilot03]

my friend is on break from iraq, she talks about the rapes that go on over there... this is really happening.

[Pauls' Revere]

If the military responded to this issue appropriately, then the rapes within the ranks would decline dramatically.

Then by executive order Obama the commander in chief should push these punishments under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ).

http://www.constitution.org/mil/ucmj19970615.htm#X

ART. 120. RAPE AND CARNAL KNOWLEDGE
(a) Any person subject to this chapter who commits an act of sexual intercourse with a female not his wife, by force and without consent, is guilty of rape and shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.

(b) Any person subject to this chapter who, under circumstances not amounting to rape, commits an act of sexual intercourse with a female not his wife who has not attained the age of sixteen years, is guilty of carnal knowledge and shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

(c) Penetration, however slight, is sufficient to complete either of these offenses.

[cheapseats]

But anyone who doesn't concede that, just like Common Men are Warhawks' canon fodder, Common Women are Society's canon fodder is either:

1.) Male
2.) Elite
3.) Dishonest
4.) Stupid
5.) combination thereof
6.) a Rugged Individualist who doesn't give a shit 'cuz secretly he is sure he can protect "his."


DOESN'T GIVE A SHIT, that's too harsh. More like, ISN'T WORRIED.

But here is something to be pondered.

The daughters of Rugged Individualists, tricked out in pink camo since infancy, are liable to be free-spirited Adventuresses. Good. We need more of them.

And because YOU are liberty-minded, you will surely ENCOURAGE this, within Reason?

Which means your daughters will NOT be snug under your protective umbrellas. Can you FATHOM raising a daughter to young womanhood of such Promise, that a well regarded i.e. SAFE institution of Higher Learning has accepted your baby amongst their Hopefuls, their Success-Bound, only to get a phone call that, ever so sorry, your daughter was RAPED AND MURDERED by some local yokel?

You have raised your daughter by your Principles, and you have taught her to be careful and street-wise, and you have taught her to use a gun, to look for no trouble but take no shit . . . alas, all in vain 'cuz some horny bully brutalized and killed her. Bam, wham. Finito, over. Just like that.

Let the legal proceedings begin. If you can afford a Good Attorney. First, you gotta FIND a Good Attorney.

THAT, my friends, is when a righteous person thinks to take matters into their own hands.

Re-read or re-watch John Grisham's A Time To Kill.

[Met Income]

DOESN'T GIVE A SHIT, that's too harsh. More like, ISN'T WORRIED.

But here is something to be pondered.

The daughters of Rugged Individualists, tricked out in pink camo since infancy, are liable to be free-spirited Adventuresses. Good. We need more of them.

And because YOU are liberty-minded, you will surely ENCOURAGE this, within Reason?

Which means your daughters will NOT be snug under your protective umbrellas. Can you FATHOM raising a daughter to young womanhood of such Promise, that a well regarded i.e. SAFE institution of Higher Learning has accepted your baby amongst their Hopefuls, their Success-Bound, only to get a phone call that, ever so sorry, your daughter was RAPED AND MURDERED by some local yokel?

You have raised your daughter by your Principles, and you have taught her to be careful and street-wise, and you have taught her to use a gun, to look for no trouble but take no shit . . . alas, all in vain 'cuz some horny bully brutalized and killed her. Bam, wham. Finito, over. Just like that.

Let the legal proceedings begin. If you can afford a Good Attorney. First, you gotta FIND a Good Attorney.

THAT, my friends, is when a righteous person thinks to take matters into their own hands.

Re-read or re-watch John Grisham's A Time To Kill.

Right. I hope I would stand by my principles. Morals don't go away just because something hits close to home.

[Stary Hickory]

The military bashing that goes on here is often extreme. People in the military are people just like you and I. There are jerks there and there are good people. And having served in the military I know about how they handle rape cases and the prevention programs that are in place.

They take it very seriously....to the extreme, in fact it's easy for a woman to claim rape even when it's not true. I know of a few cases where this happened. It was enough for me to take a step back and question whether or not it's fair to simply take someone's word that another person raped them, and then act solely on this. I have seen careers ruined simply by the charge being pressed, and nothing being proven. Even if someone defends himself in the military against an erroneous charge there are severe consequences.

The accuser never faces any penalties even if they are lying. It's simple for me, I only demand hard evidence like you would demand in a murder case or other criminal cases. Being convicted of rape is horrible, and the facts supporting a conviction ought to be more than one sided testimony or evidence that sexual acts took place.

[cheapseats]

The military bashing that goes on here is often extreme.

Not without cause.

Sincerest thanks and due respect to those who serve honorably.

BUT WE ARE LINGERING CASUALLY AT WAR. THAT'S NOT OKAY.




People in the military are people just like you and I.

Rape should be rigorously prosecuted and harshly punished without distinction between Military, Secular, Clerical or I-Use-The-Term-Loosely Official.




There are jerks there and there are good people.

There's a lotta fuckin' real estate between being a Jerk and being a Rapist.





And having served in the military I know about how they handle rape cases and the prevention programs that are in place.


The Prevention Programs are not working. HOWEVER Rape is being handled, it is not being handled effectively. Can you admit THAT much? Or is Rape like Factory Defects, with a socially acceptable screwup rate?




They take it very seriously....to the extreme, in fact it's easy for a woman to claim rape even when it's not true. I know of a few cases where this happened.


Always. A guy knows of a guy...

If they are "taking it to extremes" and if it is "easy for a woman to claim rape," WHICHEVER WAY YOU SLICE THIS PIE, the Military is handling it WRONGLY.

Inefficiently.

Ineffectively.

With Mixed Messages.

And shitty results.

Like Government.

This kind of BULLSHIT ultimately COSTS SOCIETY MONEY. Maybe you can get on board with EQUAL PROTECTION FOR WOMEN by looking at it that way.




It was enough for me to take a step back and question whether or not it's fair to simply take someone's word that another person raped them, and then act solely on this.


For fuck's sake.

IT IS NEVER OKAY TO TAKE SOMEONE'S WORD FOR IT THAT A CRIME HAS BEEN COMMITTED.





I have seen careers ruined simply by the charge being pressed, and nothing being proven. Even if someone defends himself in the military against an erroneous charge there are severe consequences.

True in secular life too, pal. You have ZERO objectivity regarding the Military.




The accuser never faces any penalties even if they are lying.

THEN THE MILITARY IS NOT DOING IT RIGHT.





It's simple for me,

I've noticed.




I only demand hard evidence like you would demand in a murder case or other criminal cases.

Do I correctly hope that you are no longer in the Military?




Being convicted of rape is horrible,


And BEING raped isn't?




and the facts supporting a conviction ought to be more than one sided testimony or evidence that sexual acts took place.

Me, again. The American. The one who is big on INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.

I'm serious, you should quit while you're behind. Your sentiments on this matter are among those that make people AFRAID of Libertarians.

[nbhadja]

Honestly, if the genders were switched in Global Leadership, we'd get into far fewer wars in the first place.

Not true at all.

Both men AND women are mindless sheep and would vote for the central banker puppets either way.

[raiha]

There's a lotta fuckin' real estate between being a Jerk and being a Rapist.:D

That's funny.

[ababba]

Something implicit in the statistics from the video surprised me.

1/3 women are raped
women make up 15% of the military
Meaning 5% of the people in the military are women and are raped

Women are four times more likely to be raped than men
That means men have a still shocking 1/12=8.25% chance of being raped
But there are more men than women so
.85*.0825=.0701
That is 7% of people in the military are men and have been raped.

12% have been raped in total. This is all based on statistics given in the video. Completely ridiculous that anybody gets raped and even worse when nobody does anything to discourage it.

[tangent4ronpaul]

Why do you hate women so much?

I don't. You see this little thing: :rolleyes: It means sarcasm.

But on a more serious note, you've got a co-ed military with many more males than females. Do you seriously think there aren't going to be problem? We are talking multi-year deployments here.

It's also in an area where the locals will stone their daughters to death if they have sex before marriage. I kindof think there just might be a shortage of brothels in the area...

In past conflicts, the military distributed condoms and told soldiers where there were safe brothels. This time, I guess they could fly them out of the country...

At the same time, every major city has street walkers. If you offered them health care, 3 meals a day and a free education on discharge - I bet some would sign up.

I doubt the government would ever do it, but it would solve the problem. So would segregating the sexes, but the women libbers would have a cow if you did that. Any way, if a more acceptable way to take care of those "urges" was available, I bet this problem would go away.

Suppose you could do hiring quota's by gender, so you had closer to a 50/50 ratio too, but that creates it's own problems.

-t

[raiha]

Welcome Ababba. Good brainwork there.

[Icymudpuppy]

There's no shortage of brothels, or even loose women in the middle east. However, soldiers are forbidden to go off base and interact with any locals except the vendors allowed on the bases when they off duty.

Remember the National Guardsman who was courtmartialed for marrying an Iraqi?
http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20148513,00.html

[Liberty Star]

There's no shortage of brothels, or even loose women in the middle east. However, soldiers are forbidden to go off base and interact with any locals except the vendors allowed on the bases when they off duty.

Remember the National Guardsman who was courtmartialed for marrying an Iraqi?
http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20148513,00.html

Even in Iraq?

At least some freedoms have reached there already then if that's true.

[djinwa]

Something implicit in the statistics from the video surprised me.

1/3 women are raped
women make up 15% of the military
Meaning 5% of the people in the military are women and are raped

Women are four times more likely to be raped than men
That means men have a still shocking 1/12=8.25% chance of being raped
But there are more men than women so
.85*.0825=.0701
That is 7% of people in the military are men and have been raped.

12% have been raped in total. This is all based on statistics given in the video. Completely ridiculous that anybody gets raped and even worse when nobody does anything to discourage it.


Then you have to ask why a woman would want to join the military and face such risks. I would certainly try to keep my daughters out.

[Icymudpuppy]

Even in Iraq?

At least some freedoms have reached there already then if that's true.

Prostitution is legal in Iraq, and has been for centuries. It is considered perfectly acceptable to visit a brothel. Men are expected to relieve their sexual urges. If you can't afford multiple wives for permanent status, you may hire temps.

[cheapseats]

There's no shortage of brothels, or even loose women in the middle east.

Not in America, either.

Many American wives and most American politicians are whores, it bears mention.




However, soldiers are forbidden to go off base and interact with any locals except the vendors allowed on the bases when they off duty.


That American Soldiers are strictly allowed to interact only with authorized vendors should give Americans an idea what "we" mean by WINNING HEARTS AND MINDS. It should give Iraqis and every other nationality on earth what we mean by NEW WORLD ORDER.

[cheapseats]

Prostitution is legal in Iraq, and has been for centuries. It is considered perfectly acceptable to visit a brothel. Men are expected to relieve their sexual urges.

Same in America.

'Cept it's a crime for the prostitute, natch.




If you can't afford multiple wives for permanent status, you may hire temps.

If you can't afford a divorce in America, you can always OFF YOUR WIFE.

[cheapseats]

Then you have to ask why a woman would want to join the military and face such risks. I would certainly try to keep my daughters out.

For the time being, I consider it my CIVIC DUTY to encourage women to boycott the United States Armed Forces.

[cheapseats]

Prostitution is legal in Iraq...

In many circles with a penchant for history, Prostitution is regarded as the OLDEST PROFESSION ON EARTH.

Regularly servicing horny guys who, pardon the pun, don't give a fuck where they stick it - who will not concede that this is HARD WORK?

[cheapseats]

I don't. You see this little thing: :rolleyes: It means sarcasm.

But on a more serious note, you've got a co-ed military with many more males than females. Do you seriously think there aren't going to be problem? We are talking multi-year deployments here.

It's also in an area where the locals will stone their daughters to death if they have sex before marriage. I kindof think there just might be a shortage of brothels in the area...

In past conflicts, the military distributed condoms and told soldiers where there were safe brothels. This time, I guess they could fly them out of the country...

At the same time, every major city has street walkers. If you offered them health care, 3 meals a day and a free education on discharge - I bet some would sign up.

I doubt the government would ever do it, but it would solve the problem. So would segregating the sexes, but the women libbers would have a cow if you did that. Any way, if a more acceptable way to take care of those "urges" was available, I bet this problem would go away.

Suppose you could do hiring quota's by gender, so you had closer to a 50/50 ratio too, but that creates it's own problems.

-t


Let's get this straight.

IT DOESN'T MATTER IF IT'S McCAIN'S HUNDRED YEAR WAR. RAPE IS A BARBARIC AND VIOLENT CRIME THAT IS STEEPED IN ABUSE OF POWER AND THAT WARRANTS HARSHEST PUNISHMENT.

[cheapseats]

Something implicit in the statistics from the video surprised me.

1/3 women are raped
women make up 15% of the military
Meaning 5% of the people in the military are women and are raped

Women are four times more likely to be raped than men
That means men have a still shocking 1/12=8.25% chance of being raped
But there are more men than women so
.85*.0825=.0701
That is 7% of people in the military are men and have been raped.

12% have been raped in total. This is all based on statistics given in the video. Completely ridiculous that anybody gets raped and even worse when nobody does anything to discourage it.

Those who are prone to ambiguity, flexibility and leniency with Rape might want to spend a few moments in contemplation of the number of MALE American Soldiers who have been raped. Presumably by Male American Soldiers -- one can guess PLURAL -- but not necessarily.

Rent the film THE RAPE OF RICHARD BECK, while yer at it. If you can find it.

[tangent4ronpaul]

Let's get this straight.

IT DOESN'T MATTER IF IT'S McCAIN'S HUNDRED YEAR WAR. RAPE IS A BARBARIC AND VIOLENT CRIME THAT IS STEEPED IN ABUSE OF POWER AND THAT WARRANTS HARSHEST PUNISHMENT.

I'm not defending it - I'm saying that when you fight natural instincts, you are asking for trouble. Notice sexual practices in prisons - male/female - makes on difference. In specialized communities like BDSM, or religious cults - things like normal age ranges fly out the window due to a reduced population of suitable partners. You are fighting biology here and biology wins. Your morality doesn't mean jack in such situations.

-t

[cheapseats]

I'm not defending it - I'm saying that when you fight natural instincts, you are asking for trouble. Notice sexual practices in prisons - male/female - makes on difference. In specialized communities like BDSM, or religious cults - things like normal age ranges fly out the window due to a reduced population of suitable partners. You are fighting biology here and biology wins. Your morality doesn't mean jack in such situations.

-t
l

IF MORALITY DOESN'T MEAN JACK SHIT IN THE UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES, THEN PULL THE TAXPAYER PLUG POST HASTE AND OSTRACIZE MILITARY BRASS EVEN QUICKER.

[tangent4ronpaul]

l

IF MORALITY DOESN'T MEAN JACK SHIT IN THE UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES, THEN PULL THE TAXPAYER PLUG POST HASTE AND OSTRACIZE MILITARY BRASS EVEN QUICKER.

That would be a good start!

Keep in mind who are attracted to the military in the first place. The rank and file. The cannon fodder. Not exactly the top of societies ladder. Rather those wanting to take a step up it. The "morality standards" of such individuals, might be a notch or two down from your expectations... Yes, there are many fine individuals in the military, but you also get the dregs - especially in this economy.

-t

[cheapseats]

That would be a good start!

Keep in mind who are attracted to the military in the first place. The rank and file. The cannon fodder. Not exactly the top of societies ladder. Rather those wanting to take a step up it. The "morality standards" of such individuals, might be a notch or two down from your expectations... Yes, there are many fine individuals in the military, but you also get the dregs - especially in this economy.

-t

The dregs, as you point out, are doin' what comes natchrally.

THE FUCK BUCK STOPS WITH MILITARY BRASS, JUST LIKE IT DID WITH THE POPE.

[cheapseats]

Keep in mind who are attracted to the military in the first place.

-t

YOU keep in mind who is attracted to The Military in the first place.

INTERNATIONAL ELITE, FEATURING A DISPROPORTIONATE NUMBER OF EXTRAORDINARILY RICH WHITE MEN, THEN THE MARGINALIZED.

Also the Soldiers who enjoy Soldiering, yes?

[Paulitey]

30% of Women in the Military do get harrassed sexualy. Why do we have women in our military if we can't protect them? Or anyone in our military for that matter?

It is a real shame. Our troops deserve better.

[tangent4ronpaul]

The dregs, as you point out, are doin' what comes natchrally.

THE FUCK BUCK STOPS WITH MILITARY BRASS, JUST LIKE IT DID WITH THE POPE.

Like Abugrav (sp?) where the brass walked and the shitworkers that obeyed orders got ling prison sentences?

-t

[tangent4ronpaul]

30% of Women in the Military do get harrassed sexualy. Why do we have women in our military if we can't protect them? Or anyone in our military for that matter?

It is a real shame. Our troops deserve better.

Ask a feminazi - it's PC, it's woman's lib! - welcome to the NWO baby!

Oh, and a standing army is ILLEGAL except for a very limited time during a DECLARED WAR! We haven't had a declared war since 1945.

-t

[cheapseats]

Like Abugrav (sp?) where the brass walked and the shitworkers that obeyed orders got ling prison sentences?

-t

Because United States Military Brass SKATED on Abu Ghraib, we shall assume an "understanding" tolerance level for rape of Female American Soldiers by Male American Soldiers?

Because United States Military Brass shirks its responsibilities, we shall also shirk ours?

Someone Else can fight for the Abu Ghraib crowd. I will fight for American women.

[ATruepatriot]

I have been told it is just like this in prison,You can give it up easy or have it taken the hard way ! While the guards stand,watch, and laugh.

[cheapseats]

Ask a feminazi - it's PC, it's woman's lib! - welcome to the NWO baby!
-t

The more things change, the more they remain the same.

New World Order comes complete with bigoted Sexism, right outta the box. Yay.

[tremendoustie]

Wow ... 1 in 3. That is sick.

Just another reason not to have a giant standing army ...

[MelissaWV]

Joining the military should not be free license to treat one's fellow soldiers (of any rank, gender, or branch) in ways that would get one arrested readily on the street. You don't get to deliberately maim, rape, kill, steal from, etc., soldiers on your side.

It is quite fair to say, in fact, that raping "enemy combatants" doesn't go over well at all in the public eye.

So why all the excusing, and the "if she doesn't want it, she shouldn't join the military" crap? It will happen, mind you. There are rapists in the general population, and the military is made of people. You are very likely to have rapists and murderers among the ranks, especially given the environment many of them are faced with on a daily basis. However, allegations should be investigated, and punishment should be meted out. All of this should have gone without saying.

Male soldiers do get raped, too. Hell, I'm sure some of the livestock isn't even safe. Each case on its own merits, please.

[cheapseats]

Has Commander in Chief Barack "Sweetie" Obama weighed in?

[cheapseats]

...allegations should be investigated, and punishment should be meted out. All of this should have gone without saying.

All of that WOULD go without saying, 'cept guys are funny about their dicks.

Certainly I don't hear choruses of WAIT TIL ALL THE FACT ARE IN when incidents of police brutality are recounted. Is the problem that we don't have YouTubes of Rapes?




Male soldiers do get raped, too. Hell, I'm sure some of the livestock isn't even safe. Each case on its own merits, please.


So long as we're clear that MERIT refers to VERACITY. So long as we're taking into consideration whether it's a relationship gone sour or lying -- NOT whether the poor Male Soldier has become desensitized by war or how backed up the fucker is.

Good one, about the livestock.

[Pericles]

You go away for a weekend to build bunkers, dragon's teeth, and fire weapons and all Hell breaks loose.

As best I can tell this story originates here with this:

http://www.veteransforpeace.org/files/pdf/Sadler%20Military%20Environment.pdf

I would note that the survey relied on self responses, rather than having an entirely random sample, which tends to over state the rate of occurance as those who feel strongly about the subject are those who tend to respond.

Best look at the reality of being a woman deployed that I have seen:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15307306#15285761

This is the reality of of what the Army currently is. The constant rotations in and out of combat are breaking the Army as an effective fighting force. And that is the only organizational imperative for the organization - win the wars their country sends them to fight. The lack of proper leadership is only one symptom (and the primary one) as to why the military environment is female hostile.

The boy GIs have difficulty keeping their pants on - and having girl GIs in the same unit becomes the easiest opportunity. Deployments only increase the stress level. At one extreme, you have the politically correct - training that stresses the "proper" way to erase a chalk board to minimize breast jiggle. And at the other extreme, generals ordering women not to get pregnant.

The unit leaders, company grade officers and NCOs, are left with trying to perform the unit mission, while trying to keep everyone alive, and have the GIs keep their pants on, while not shooting anyone who shouldn't be shot, and not do anything that makes the news in a bad way.

Medically, there tends not to be much on the way of support for Gyn exams or collecting evidence of rape, as the attention tends to be focused on saving the lives of those who just got blown up and / or shot.

The unit leadership if not part of the problem then has the problem of sorting out the truth, all the way from the psycho who got into the Army despite his past history as a rapist due to a waiver because of the shortage of volunteers at one point, to the gals with an entrepreneurial spirit who have capitalized on a shortage of a service for which there is a demand as evidenced by the accumulated thousands in cash.

The more usual story is some variation of the result of pregnancy - which results in immediate return to the USA. This is an ongoing problem because of the concentration of women is some units can reach as high as 25% of the unit, and at a 20% pregnancy rate, 5% of the unit is lost in a year due to pregnancy. Rather than face discipline for either violating order relating to fitness for service or fraternization, a claim of rape, for which any evidence has long since disappeared, avoids punishment.

If the answer was as easy as some posters on the board would have it, action would have been taken long ago.

[cheapseats]

If the answer was as easy as some posters on the board would have it, action would have been taken long ago.

No doubt, but the ol' THINGS ARE MORE COMPLICATED THAN WE REALIZE is Standard Government Issue.

[tangent4ronpaul]

Because United States Military Brass SKATED on Abu Ghraib, we shall assume an "understanding" tolerance level for rape of Female American Soldiers by Male American Soldiers?

Because United States Military Brass shirks its responsibilities, we shall also shirk ours?

Someone Else can fight for the Abu Ghraib crowd. I will fight for American women.

There were rapes at Abu Ghraib??? - first I've heard of it. Apples and oranges here. We were talking about the double standard of rank.

-t

[cheapseats]

You go away for a weekend to build bunkers, dragon's teeth, and fire weapons and all Hell breaks loose.

That's what you're PREPARING for, yes? ;)




If the answer was as easy as some posters on the board would have it, action would have been taken long ago.

What of this? THIS seems straightforward, WITH court-martial spelled correctly. Who knew it was hyphenated?


Then by executive order Obama the commander in chief should push these punishments under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ).

http://www.constitution.org/mil/ucmj19970615.htm#X

ART. 120. RAPE AND CARNAL KNOWLEDGE
(a) Any person subject to this chapter who commits an act of sexual intercourse with a female not his wife, by force and without consent, is guilty of rape and shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.

(b) Any person subject to this chapter who, under circumstances not amounting to rape, commits an act of sexual intercourse with a female not his wife who has not attained the age of sixteen years, is guilty of carnal knowledge and shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

(c) Penetration, however slight, is sufficient to complete either of these offenses.

[Pericles]

No doubt, but the ol' THINGS ARE MORE COMPLICATED THAN WE REALIZE is Standard Government Issue.

On one extreme you have DACOWITS, which will not be satisfied until women are in the infantry and are getting killed in numbers while maintaining "equal points for equal effort" standards that put women in places that will get them harmed without good cause. And the other extreme the real "he men" that have their ego around the idea that only real men can do their jobs.

[cheapseats]

On one extreme you have DACOWITS, which will not be satisfied until women are in the infantry and are getting killed in numbers while maintaining "equal points for equal effort" standards that put women in places that will get them harmed without good cause. And the other extreme the real "he men" that have their ego around the idea that only real men can do their jobs.

There will ALWAYS be Idiots and there will ALWAYS be Assholes.

Either the United States Armed Forces have ethical and efficacious Leadership, or they do not.

[cheapseats]

On one extreme you have DACOWITS, which will not be satisfied until women are in the infantry and are getting killed in numbers while maintaining "equal points for equal effort" standards that put women in places that will get them harmed without good cause. And the other extreme the real "he men" that have their ego around the idea that only real men can do their jobs.

Military Brass, like Government Officials, ought not to be playing to and placating Extremes.

[Pericles]

That's what you're PREPARING for, yes? ;)





What of this? THIS seems straightforward, WITH court-martial spelled correctly. Who knew it was hyphenated?

As with any crime, the difficulty is proof for conviction. The rules of evidence are different in the military - the prime is the good order and discipline of the military. Conduct (victim's) that would not be admissible in civilian court could be admissible in a court-martial (one of the reasons the Bush gang wanted tribunals for the Gitmo prisoners).

Evidence of playing "Queen for a Year" would make it hard to get a conviction - most successful prosecutions are for cases where the guy is not in the same unit - makes the probability of consent go way down.

[Pericles]

There will ALWAYS be Idiots and there will ALWAYS be Assholes.

Either the United States Armed Forces have ethical and efficacious Leadership, or they do not.

Evidence is the quality of leadership has declined in the last 15 years. Gates has done some great things (Walter Reed) to ry to reverse the trend, but the odds of his success I consider to be not so good.

[MelissaWV]

Then by executive order Obama the commander in chief should push these punishments under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ).

http://www.constitution.org/mil/ucmj19970615.htm#X

ART. 120. RAPE AND CARNAL KNOWLEDGE
(a) Any person subject to this chapter who commits an act of sexual intercourse with a female not his wife, by force and without consent, is guilty of rape and shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.

(b) Any person subject to this chapter who, under circumstances not amounting to rape, commits an act of sexual intercourse with a female not his wife who has not attained the age of sixteen years, is guilty of carnal knowledge and shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

(c) Penetration, however slight, is sufficient to complete either of these offenses.

Man, there is so much wrong with those definitions. "Not his wife"? So wives cannot be raped, if I am to read this correctly? Males, also, cannot be raped I guess. It specifically states "sexual intercourse" which can sometimes be defined, for purposes of code such as this, as man-woman "normal" sex. If so, then forcing other kinds of sex is okay.

Also, to cross-reference, we were talking in another thread about potential court-martial for a female soldier becoming pregnant. I find it a bit revolting that a soldier having sex with a "not his wife" under the age of 16 is about on the same level. Really folks? :confused: THAT is the sort of thing one expects to lead to a criminal record, yeah, not getting pregnant.

[Pericles]

Man, there is so much wrong with those definitions. "Not his wife"? So wives cannot be raped, if I am to read this correctly? Males, also, cannot be raped I guess. It specifically states "sexual intercourse" which can sometimes be defined, for purposes of code such as this, as man-woman "normal" sex. If so, then forcing other kinds of sex is okay.

Also, to cross-reference, we were talking in another thread about potential court-martial for a female soldier becoming pregnant. I find it a bit revolting that a soldier having sex with a "not his wife" under the age of 16 is about on the same level. Really folks? :confused: THAT is the sort of thing one expects to lead to a criminal record, yeah, not getting pregnant.

Different offenses

ART. 125. SODOMY
(a) Any person subject to this chapter who engages in unnatural carnal copulation with another person of the same or opposite sex or with an animal is guilty of sodomy. Penetration , however slight, is sufficient to complete the offense.
(b) Any person found guilty of sodomy shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.


And when nothing else will do:


ART. 134. GENERAL ARTICLE
Though not specifically mentioned in this chapter, all disorders and neglects to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces, all conduct of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces, and crimes and offenses not capital, of which persons subject to this chapter may be guilty, shall be taken cognizance of by a general, special or summary court-martial, according to the nature and degree of the offense, and shall be punished at the discretion of that court.

Since this edition - ART. 134 has some revision to remove some (not all) of the ambiguity therein.

[MelissaWV]

The "sodomy" definition is not particularly helpful, either, in all cases... nor is the other one at all helpful, as it's so vague that they might have said "if you do something naughty, you may be subject to court-martial."

I still don't see any clarification of why wives aren't afforded protection.

[tangent4ronpaul]

Man, there is so much wrong with those definitions. "Not his wife"? So wives cannot be raped, if I am to read this correctly? Males, also, cannot be raped I guess. It specifically states "sexual intercourse" which can sometimes be defined, for purposes of code such as this, as man-woman "normal" sex. If so, then forcing other kinds of sex is okay.

Also, to cross-reference, we were talking in another thread about potential court-martial for a female soldier becoming pregnant. I find it a bit revolting that a soldier having sex with a "not his wife" under the age of 16 is about on the same level. Really folks? :confused: THAT is the sort of thing one expects to lead to a criminal record, yeah, not getting pregnant.

Well, I think you used to be able to get hitched to a 13 or 14yo in a few states - though I think you needed parental consent.

-t

[Pericles]

"if you do something naughty, you may be subject to court-martial."

That is the basic idea right there, and it does not always have to be "naughty". Or to be more accurate - "if you do something, or fail to do something, you may be subject to court-martial".

[cheapseats]

That is the basic idea right there, and it does not always have to be "naughty". Or to be more accurate - "if you do something, or fail to do something, you may be subject to court-martial".


Same goes us with us LAY Folk out here, with our internationally notorious Legal System and our depraved Incarceration Incorporated.

Y'all are giving RAPE special consideration.

It's just as easy for me to steal money or supplies, and blame someone else. Scratch that. It would be EASIER for me to frame someone for stealing. I need only plant stolen property amongst his belongings. DNA is tougher to manipulate.

[tangent4ronpaul]

DNA is tougher to manipulate.

Fingerprints / DNA - not that hard to plant. *SPERM* would be a challenge to plant!

-t

[ramallamamama]

DNA is tougher to manipulate.

Not so much. Many, many have their DNA on record. Foxes guarding the hen house?

[phill4paul]

DNA Evidence Can Be Fabricated, Scientists Show

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/18/science/18dna.html

[cheapseats]

Not so much. Many, many have their DNA on record.

Fair enough.

Think it's any harder to plant purloined goods than to jack around with DNA and fingerprints?




Foxes guarding the hen house?

Is there Doubt in your mind?

Keys to the Evidence Room, THAT will win you some hearts and minds.

[cheapseats]

DNA Evidence Can Be Fabricated, Scientists Show

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/18/science/18dna.html


Extraordinarily incriminating evidence can be planted, EASILY.

Ask L.A.P.D.

[cheapseats]

*SPERM* would be a challenge to plant!

-t


Apparently not hard enough.

[ramallamamama]

Fair enough.

Think it's any harder to plant purloined goods than to jack around with DNA and fingerprints?

Nope.


Is there Doubt in your mind?

Rhetorical question, right?

[ramallamamama]

Sorry for the derail cheapseats, as you were saying...

[ramallamamama]

Apparently not hard enough.

Nice one.

[Sandman33]

I absolutely in no way condone rape of any sort whatsoever. It's quite a morbid and nasty ordeal that no one should have to deal with.

Yet, I find it ironic, that in a mind bending physical, mental, and emotional campaign such as the military, that teaches people how to murder other people and not let it affect them.....can expect a person to be THAT de-sensitized to the human condition that he even CARES about rape anymore.

You expect these people to be able to snipe people in the face right in front of their families. Yet also expect them to hold such a value for humanity that they should let RAPE affect them emotionally?

YOU'RE TRAINING KILLERS.

And not just that aspect but the single largest reason a man can tell himself gives him justification for murdering someone else is protection. Protecting your home or eliminating those that wish to harm your family.

But now these soldiers are realizing that they aren't serving their country, they are murdering for a corporate agenda that ultimately will hurt their own family in the long run.

So now you have men that are going INSANE and killing themselves. The sad fact is that this year more soldiers died from suicide than as a casualty of the war....and you expect them to still care about RAPE?

It's not that rape is ever to be taken lightly. It's that putting females with men that are going through THAT much mental stress can never be a good idea.

[EvilEngineer]

Put 2 or more people of any gender together... add enough stimulus... and sex happens, be it consensual or un-consensual. Rape in the military has been going on since the beginning of human history... there is nothing anyone can do to staunch it out for good. (I find it funny people think incidents like this are new)

Treat those effected by rape, and punish those who commit it... it's about all you can do... unless you all want to try some nice new brain altering drugs to make you more compliment and docile.

:: holds needle ::

well... the line is over there...

[ScoutsHonor]

i absolutely in no way condone rape of any sort whatsoever. It's quite a morbid and nasty ordeal that no one should have to deal with.

Yet, i find it ironic, that in a mind bending physical, mental, and emotional campaign such as the military, that teaches people how to murder other people and not let it affect them.....can expect a person to be that de-sensitized to the human condition that he even cares about rape anymore.

You expect these people to be able to snipe people in the face right in front of their families. Yet also expect them to hold such a value for humanity that they should let rape affect them emotionally?

You're training killers.

And not just that aspect but the single largest reason a man can tell himself gives him justification for murdering someone else is protection. Protecting your home or eliminating those that wish to harm your family.

But now these soldiers are realizing that they aren't serving their country, they are murdering for a corporate agenda that ultimately will hurt their own family in the long run.

So now you have men that are going insane and killing themselves. The sad fact is that this year more soldiers died from suicide than as a casualty of the war....and you expect them to still care about rape?

It's not that rape is ever to be taken lightly. It's that putting females with men that are going through that much mental stress can never be a good idea.

+100

[MelissaWV]

I'd hope the "shock" isn't over the fact this happens. It's going to happen. The problem here is how it's handled after the fact.

[Liberty Star]

The frequency of its happening still shocking though.

[Pericles]

The frequency of its happening still shocking though.

This statement illustrates the problem with the survey, the report, this thread, and politics in general.

Just over 2100 were sent out to women with periods of military service from the Vietnam War to the present, just over 600 surveys were returned, and 171 rapes were reported.

The data gathering was so shoddy, that we can't determine if the problem was non existent in the '60s and is happening now, or the other way around. We have no way to determine if the incidence of rape is increasing or decreasing. We can't tell how big the problem is with any accuracy, whether current military policies are helpful or harmful in preventing rapes, but we now have about 15 pages of excited posts about an issue we can't solve here.

Ultimately, every issue in the military is the result of officer selection and promotion. Soldiers live up or down to the standards their commanders set. Permit me to wax old school romantic for just a moment to the days when an officer was responsible for everything his unit does or fails to do.

[Sandman33]

This statement illustrates the problem with the survey, the report, this thread, and politics in general.

Just over 2100 were sent out to women with periods of military service from the Vietnam War to the present, just over 600 surveys were returned, and 171 rapes were reported.

The data gathering was so shoddy, that we can't determine if the problem was non existent in the '60s and is happening now, or the other way around. We have no way to determine if the incidence of rape is increasing or decreasing. We can't tell how big the problem is with any accuracy, whether current military policies are helpful or harmful in preventing rapes, but we now have about 15 pages of excited posts about an issue we can't solve here.

Ultimately, every issue in the military is the result of officer selection and promotion. Soldiers live up or down to the standards their commanders set. Permit me to wax old school romantic for just a moment to the days when an officer was responsible for everything his unit does or fails to do.

The numbers in these studies usually are quite skewed. I honestly doubted that one in three was being HONESLTY raped. Then you showed the numbers which didn't include all the women enlisted, and still wasn't quite 1-3 anyway. And then you have to wonder how many are lying or ebelishing out of those that WERE questioned?

Either way it's moot I guess. Rape shoudn't exist no matter what the numbers are. But there's still no reason to skew them.

Personally if I were a woman and I knew that I had nearly a 30% chance of being RAPED I probably wouldn't even join the military. It's one of those dangers you take when joining whether its ok or pc or not...like getting killed. If you join the military your chances of getting killed increase greatly too.

Actually your chances of committing suicide are higher.

Imagine all the protestors marching against military rape actually protesting the stupid WAR instead.

I'd bet ending the war would end a whole lot of rape.

[Sandman33]

The numbers in these studies usually are quite skewed. I honestly doubted that one in three was being HONESLTY raped. Then you showed the numbers which didn't include all the women enlisted, and still wasn't quite 1-3 anyway. And then you have to wonder how many are lying or ebelishing out of those that WERE questioned?

Either way it's moot I guess. Rape shoudn't exist no matter what the numbers are. But there's still no reason to skew them.

Personally if I were a woman and I knew that I had nearly a 30% chance of being RAPED I probably wouldn't even join the military. It's one of those dangers you take when joining whether its ok or pc or not...like getting killed. If you join the military your chances of getting killed increase greatly too.

Actually your chances of committing suicide are higher.

Imagine all the protestors marching against military rape actually protesting the stupid WAR instead.

I'd bet ending the war would end a whole lot of rape.

Id bet ending the war would end a WHOLE lot of rape.....

[Liberty Star]

This statement illustrates the problem with the survey, the report, this thread, and politics in general.

Just over 2100 were sent out to women with periods of military service from the Vietnam War to the present, just over 600 surveys were returned, and 171 rapes were reported.

The data gathering was so shoddy, that we can't determine if the problem was non existent in the '60s and is happening now, or the other way around. We have no way to determine if the incidence of rape is increasing or decreasing. We can't tell how big the problem is with any accuracy, whether current military policies are helpful or harmful in preventing rapes, but we now have about 15 pages of excited posts about an issue we can't solve here.

Ultimately, every issue in the military is the result of officer selection and promotion. Soldiers live up or down to the standards their commanders set. Permit me to wax old school romantic for just a moment to the days when an officer was responsible for everything his unit does or fails to do.

I took the numbers at face value, but are you suggesting that there is no problem in this area and these conerns have no basis?

[cheapseats]

Yet, I find it ironic, that in a mind bending physical, mental, and emotional campaign such as the military, that teaches people how to murder other people and not let it affect them.....can expect a person to be THAT de-sensitized to the human condition that he even CARES about rape anymore...

YOU'RE TRAINING KILLERS...



Is drawing a distinction between Enemy Combatants and TEAMMATES even too unrealistic a burden of Civilization to place upon Soldiers?

[cheapseats]

Put 2 or more people of any gender together... add enough stimulus... and sex happens, be it consensual or un-consensual. Rape in the military has been going on since the beginning of human history... there is nothing anyone can do to staunch it out for good. (I find it funny people think incidents like this are new)

There is, however, a lot more that COULD be done to mitigate the occurrence of Rape. Castration of repeat offenders would drop those statistics WAY down, I feel certain.



Treat those effected by rape, and punish those who commit it... it's about all you can do... unless you all want to try some nice new brain altering drugs to make you more compliment and docile.


http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1811858,00.html

Maybe they only need to ADJUST the Meds.

[cheapseats]

I'd hope the "shock" isn't over the fact this happens. It's going to happen.

Like the Pope regarding pedophelia?





The problem here is how it's handled after the fact.

Pray tell, MelissaWV, what IS the ACCEPTABLE RAPE THRESHOLD?

[cheapseats]

The frequency of its happening still shocking though.

Unambiguously -- NOT stipulating, rather, SETTING ASIDE "boys will be boys" rationalization -- YES, expose of NOT ISOLATED Rape of Female American Soldiers by Male American Solders IS shocking.

[cheapseats]

This statement illustrates the problem with the survey, the report, this thread, and politics in general.

Just over 2100 were sent out to women with periods of military service from the Vietnam War to the present, just over 600 surveys were returned, and 171 rapes were reported.

The data gathering was so shoddy, that we can't determine if the problem was non existent in the '60s and is happening now, or the other way around. We have no way to determine if the incidence of rape is increasing or decreasing. We can't tell how big the problem is with any accuracy, whether current military policies are helpful or harmful in preventing rapes, but we now have about 15 pages of excited posts about an issue we can't solve here.

Speaks DIRECTLY to crappy leadership AND patriarchal trivializing of VIOLENT CRIME SLASH ABUSE OF POWER.






Ultimately, every issue in the military is the result of officer selection and promotion. Soldiers live up or down to the standards their commanders set. Permit me to wax old school romantic for just a moment to the days when an officer was responsible for everything his unit does or fails to do.


I applaud the practice of Disgraced Executives falling on their swords.

[MelissaWV]

Like the Pope regarding pedophelia?






Pray tell, MelissaWV, what IS the ACCEPTABLE RAPE THRESHOLD?

"Acceptable threshold" implies that a certain number of people should be let off free and clear, and if it exceeds that number it will only then be considered a problem. No one should be shocked rape happens in the military. No one should be shocked murder happens in the military. No one should be shocked theft, speeding, pot-smoking, or any other activity that also occurs in the population at large... happens in the military. The military is made up of people, and some of them are going to be bad people. There isn't some kind of magical "hero powder" sprinkled on the military which makes its members perfect. The same is true of any profession, even the clergy. You made mention of that... yeah, a certain number are going to be kid-touchers, even a larger-than-usual percentage, considering the profession gains one greater access to children. There are also a lot of kid-touching camp counselors, teachers, and ice cream truck drivers.

The fact it happens isn't what should give people pause. The fact that it isn't punished, though, is just encouragement. It breeds a culture of "it's okay to rape" or "if she can't take it, she shouldn't enroll." It's along the same lines of "she was beggin' for it; she was wearing a short skirt." Total bullshit. You can't prevent rapes from happening, but you sure as hell can punish it after the fact, and just maybe it will give one or two people pause before they go sticking things in each other without consent.

[denison]

The military is designed to prevent foreigners from invading our lands and raping women on American soil.

Unfortunately, the military doesn't perform this function whatsoever.

yep, instead we invade other people's soil and rape our own women. Progress. :confused:

[denison]

War brutalizes people...(look at Abu Graib) Nazis and soldiers throughout history rape pillage and plunder.
American soldiers did it in Vietnam and Korea. Vietnamese women use to put razors in their vagina because they knew the "good ole boys" would try and have their way with them.

[cheapseats]

"Acceptable threshold" implies that a certain number of people should be let off free and clear, and if it exceeds that number it will only then be considered a problem. No one should be shocked rape happens in the military. No one should be shocked murder happens in the military. No one should be shocked theft, speeding, pot-smoking, or any other activity that also occurs in the population at large... happens in the military. The military is made up of people, and some of them are going to be bad people.


Begging your pardon but the Population At Large is not SCREENED for mental and emotional fitness, as Military are SUPPOSED to be.

I will argue that ACCEPTABLE THRESHOLD does NOT mean X number of people get off free and clear, rather, that Y rate of occurrence CEASES TO SHOCK.

[cheapseats]

yep, instead we invade other people's soil and rape our own women. Progress. :confused:

Spread wild oats along with wealth and . . . what's the other thing we're cramming down throats? Ah, yes, DEMOCRACY.

[denison]

This is total and utter crap.

Rape accusations are treated EXTREMELY seriously, I'd argue just as seriously if not more-so than murder. Rapists are already treated as more horrific than murderers, and an accusation can easily ruin lives. To claim that women being raped and murdered isn't taken seriously is an outright lie, society structured as it is that's in fact quite the opposite. Most victims of violent crime are, in fact, men. Missing women are regularly showcased in the MSM. The sentiment of 'women and children first' is far from gone in society, and to claim that no-one cares when women are assaulted but suddenly DO care when men are assaulted is utterly facetious.

Honestly, if the genders were switched on military deaths we'd have come back from both of the wars years ago.

It's not treated seriously enough.

http://makkah.wordpress.com/2009/11/29/rape-within-the-u-s-military-1-in-3-women-service-members-sexually-assaulted-at-least-once/


http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/03/07/women_in_military/


The private war of women soldiers

"Many female soldiers say they are sexually assaulted by their male comrades and can't trust the military to protect them. "The knife wasn't for the Iraqis," says one woman. "It was for the guys on my own side."

[denison]

Spread wild oats along with wealth and . . . what's the other thing we're cramming down throats? Ah, yes, DEMOCRACY.

AH. Because nothing says freedom like majority rule. :D

[cheapseats]

AH. Because nothing says freedom like majority rule. :D


Nuthin' says Freedom, American Style like MIGHT MAKES RIGHT.

[denison]

This is total and utter crap.
The sentiment of 'women and children first' is far from gone in society.

First when it comes to rape and murder, yes.


And the men who are raped in then military are raped by other men. This whole issue resolves around men not knowing how to control their libido. Maybe women should handle all our foreign wars, at least they'd concentrate on fighting, instead of raping any breathing object.

[denison]

Honestly, if the genders were switched in Global Leadership, we'd get into far fewer wars in the first place.

Quoted for truth. :)

[cheapseats]

Nuthin' says Freedom, American Style like MIGHT MAKES RIGHT.

On further consideration, I would put it differently. Not only as pertains the TRAVESTY OF SOLDIER-ON-SOLDIER RAPE IN THE UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES, but also as pertains to Governance-I-use-the-term-as-loosely-as-can-be with its plethora of capricious taxes, fines and penalties and as pertains to freewheeling, swashbuckling Commerce-again-I-use-the-term-loosely.

Nuthin' says Freedom, American Style like MIGHT MAKES 'THAT'S THE WAY IT IS.'

[denison]

There's no shortage of brothels, or even loose women in the middle east. However, soldiers are forbidden to go off base and interact with any locals except the vendors allowed on the bases when they off duty.



They're already plenty of civilian rape by US soldiers in Iraq now. Just awhile back a few were convicted of raping 14 yr old iraqi girl. There's no need to export smut peddling, rape and prostiution. Those soldiers are there to do a specific job. If the handle life without sex for a couple of months then send 'em home. All the more reason why we shouldn't be there. You're only giving then jihadist more feul for their fire. They don't mess around when it comes to their women.

[cheapseats]

They're already plenty of civilian rape by US soldiers in Iraq now. Just awhile back a few were convicted of raping 14 yr old iraqi girl. There's no need to export smut peddling, rape and prostiution. Those soldiers are there to do a specific job. If the handle life without sex for a couple of months then send 'em home. All the more reason why we shouldn't be there. You're only giving then jihadist more feul for their fire. They don't mess around when it comes to their women.


The Blackwater Fucks, off free-and-clear for MURDER. Does THAT bring it any closer to home? Or not yet, insofar as THOSE BULLY AMERICANS -- PAID BY CONSCIENCELESS ROBBER BARONS -- had the good sense to murder Iraqis?

[cheapseats]

This is actually why I bumped the thread:



This statement illustrates the problem with the survey, the report, this thread, and politics in general.

Just over 2100 were sent out to women with periods of military service from the Vietnam War to the present, just over 600 surveys were returned, and 171 rapes were reported.

The data gathering was so shoddy, that we can't determine if the problem was non existent in the '60s and is happening now, or the other way around. We have no way to determine if the incidence of rape is increasing or decreasing. We can't tell how big the problem is with any accuracy, whether current military policies are helpful or harmful in preventing rapes, but we now have about 15 pages of excited posts about an issue we can't solve here.

Ultimately, every issue in the military is the result of officer selection and promotion. Soldiers live up or down to the standards their commanders set. Permit me to wax old school romantic for just a moment to the days when an officer was responsible for everything his unit does or fails to do.




Speaks DIRECTLY to crappy leadership AND patriarchal trivializing of VIOLENT CRIME SLASH ABUSE OF POWER.

I applaud the practice of Disgraced Executives falling on their swords.


I'm connecting a coupla dots, for my OWN clarification - please bear with me.

Are we clear, you and I? I do not imply that blame lies at your boots, rather, that NEED of your caliber of Leadership is demonstrably and urgently apparent among the Professional Soldier Class.

[RM918]

First when it comes to rape and murder, yes.

Men are far more likely to be violently attacked and killed than women are. Feminists used to spout this '1-in-4' statistic constantly even though it was an obvious fabrication, I'd be willing to bet this 1-in-3 statistic is the same, as 33% is way too high a number for it to be ignored. The military has already greatly lowered standards for recruitment so women could join, so I find it very hard to believe the PC-controlled military is ignoring a third of its female service members getting raped for the glory of the Patriarchy. Whatever the case, it deserves more investigation. If it IS true, I'll be the first to say something definitely needs to be done about it. Scaling the military back a great deal would be the best step forward.


"Honestly, if the genders were switched in Global Leadership, we'd get into far fewer wars in the first place."

Quoted for truth.

Yeah, I suppose you'll be going on over to the Hillary Clinton forums, then. I'm sure she's doing so much for the antiwar cause.

Women can be every bit as manipulative, deceptive, warlike, hostile, and plain evil as men. We're all human. Whatever dangles or rather, does not dangle between your legs still makes you a mere mortal. Gender supremacists get no-one anywhere.

[cheapseats]

Id bet ending the war would end a WHOLE lot of rape.....

Agreed.

It would result in many fewer deaths, as well.

Or is DEATH too big to fail?

[cheapseats]

...I find it very hard to believe the PC-controlled military is ignoring a third of its female service members getting raped for the glory of the Patriarchy...


Are you, perchance, Male? Mayhaps also White?

[cheapseats]

Women can be every bit as manipulative, deceptive, warlike, hostile, and plain evil as men. We're all human.

Absolutely.

The issue is FORCE.





Whatever dangles or rather, does not dangle between your legs still makes you a mere mortal. Gender supremacists get no-one anywhere.

The issue is not Supremacy.

The issue is ABUSE OF POWER. With a side of Gender Solidarity on the whitewashing.

[RM918]

Are you, perchance, Male? Mayhaps also White?

So logic is fundamentally altered depending on the gender and race of the mouth forming the words? If I chopped off my privates and jumped into a vat of ink, speaking the same words I did 5 minutes beforehand would be suddenly enlightening?

Now that is the essence of sexism and racism.

[cheapseats]

Evidence is the quality of leadership has declined in the last 15 years.

Perhaps also the caliber of the infantry has declined, if reports of relaxed entry requirements and medicated soldiers are to be believed.

It follows that there are some seriously Good Egg military folk who are no longer in the Military.

[cheapseats]

So logic is fundamentally altered depending on the gender and race of the mouth forming the words?

You are self-aggrandizing if you think you have been a voice of Logic.

Do you mean to suggest that Male and Female thinking is The Same, and that Male and Female capabilities are Equal?




If I chopped off my privates and jumped into a vat of ink, speaking the same words I did 5 minutes beforehand would be suddenly enlightening?

Pubescent.




Now that is the essence of sexism and racism.

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me.

Being SOFT ON RAPE, however, will cost candidates in upcoming elections.

[RM918]

You are self-aggrandizing if you think you have been a voice of Logic.

Do you mean to suggest that Male and Female thinking is The Same, and that Male and Female capabilities are Equal?



So are you saying women are too stupid/incapable to compete with men and need help? I don't know what you're implying, and if that's it, I'm the sexist?



Pubescent.


Coming from you, I'll take that as a compliment.


Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me.

Being SOFT ON RAPE, however, will cost candidates in upcoming elections.

Soft on rape? My view: It's a violent, brutal crime. If it happened to anyone close to me, I'd probably prefer the punishment to be a shotgun blast or five in the chest. But I wouldn't be thinking clearly. Find who did it, imprison and punish them accordingly with reparations to the victim.

However, you think anyone's soft on rape if they're not 100% on board for genital mutilation. So maybe I should also take that as a compliment.

[cheapseats]

However, you think anyone's soft on rape if they're not 100% on board for genital mutilation.

No, I don't. Now you're being hyperbolic.




So maybe I should also take that as a compliment.

It's still a free country, but it'd be a little like the Logic supposition.

[RM918]

No, I don't. Now you're being hyperbolic.


Castration and an 'R' tattooed on their foreheads or a bullet between the eyes, either of those would work.

What did you have in mind?

Yeah, don't know where I got that idea. Very hyperbolic.



It's still a free country, but it'd be a little like the Logic supposition.

What I meant is that you didn't pay any attention to my arguments, you simply won't address what I say unless I can get a black woman to say the exact same things, yet if I demanded you be a white male if I were going to take any of your arguments seriously I'd be a stupid bigot, and you'd be right.

[cheapseats]

Yeah, don't know where I got that idea. Very hyperbolic.

NOW, YOU'RE CHERRY PICKING. Intellectual Honesty is not your strong suit.





What I meant is that you didn't pay any attention to my arguments, you simply won't address what I say unless I can get a black woman to say the exact same things, yet if I demanded you be a white male if I were going to take any of your arguments seriously I'd be a stupid bigot, and you'd be right.

You're right. Your arguments do not warrant my attention.

Shhh. Peace.

I'm looking to have a word with Pericles, not you.

[RM918]

NOW, YOU'RE CHERRY PICKING. Intellectual Honesty is not your strong suit.

Sure I am. Refer to the first half of this thread of you repeatedly defending your assertion for castration as a suitable punishment.


You're right. Your arguments do not warrant my attention.

Shhh. Peace.

I'm looking to have a word with Pericles, not you.

If you're willing to admit that you only care about ideas if they're spoken by people with the right sexual and racial makeup, whether you warrant me paying any attention to you is quite settled as well.

[cheapseats]

Sure I am. Refer to the first half of this thread of you repeatedly defending your assertion for castration as a suitable punishment.



If you're willing to admit that you only care about ideas if they're spoken by people with the right sexual and racial makeup, whether you warrant me paying any attention to you is quite settled as well.


You are an unapologetic KNEE-JERKER. The Type who hits bottom, and keeps digging.

Often wrong, but never in doubt.

Peace.

[RM918]

You are an unapologetic KNEE-JERKER. The Type who hits bottom, and keeps digging.

Often wrong, but never in doubt.



Only the wrong skin color and gender, apparently.


Peace.

Right back at 'ya.

[Sandman33]

Is drawing a distinction between Enemy Combatants and TEAMMATES even too unrealistic a burden of Civilization to place upon Soldiers?


Apparently for many...it is. Whether it's P.C. or not, many men in the military resent the fact that women have much easier standards to gain the same rank and pay that they do.....and many men resent them for that, especially when they are on the front line of combat.

Combine that with training them to numb themselves to the act of MURDER and sadly this is what you get.

[cheapseats]

Apparently for many...it is. Whether it's P.C. or not, many men in the military resent the fact that women have much easier standards to gain the same rank and pay that they do.....and many men resent them for that, especially when they are on the front line of combat.

That resentment would rightly be directed at their Superiors, unto the Commander in Chief, not at the women. CLASSIC bully bullshit -- too timid/trapped to stand up to Deciders, so go after the tangential Little Guy. WORSE, in this case - GAL.




Combine that with training them to numb themselves to the act of MURDER and sadly this is what you get.

If "this is what we get," then we should have NO PROBLEM selling ANTI-WAR to the electorate. We can SHAME ourselves into doing the Right thing.

[Pericles]

This is actually why I bumped the thread:

I'm connecting a coupla dots, for my OWN clarification - please bear with me.

Are we clear, you and I? I do not imply that blame lies at your boots, rather, that NEED of your caliber of Leadership is demonstrably and urgently apparent among the Professional Soldier Class.

I think we are clear, and take that as a request for a direct assessment.

The Army today is the result of policies executed over the last 20 years. First problem is contraction and expansion of active duty forces - rapid contraction of the '90s put experienced and well trained people out of the service (some paid as much as $40K to go away and not even join the reserve and guard or lose the money), while expansion post 2001 results in the promotion of inexperienced people who have not been fully trained. A digression on building an army - a typical company commander in the army has 4 years service before commanding that company, battalion commanders 14 to 16 years, brigade commanders, 20 years, and generals some 30 years. Given that, how can one expect to build an Iraqi or Afghan army in one year? In the 1950's it took over 5 years to rebuild the the West German army, and they had no shortage of experienced and competent people to call upon as it was being built. End of digression. In 1988 to 1992, promotion time to captain was 4 years active duty, it is now down to 2.5 years (same as Vietnam, BTW).

Along with the exit of skilled people, was the policy of "additional opportunities" for women. This placed women into more roles and units than previously, and in the case of officers, commands they would otherwise never have been given. Abu Ghraib a case in point. In the army, you never command a brigade unless youu have commanded a battalion, and you never command a battalion unless you have commanded a company for at least 18 months, and you never command a company unless you have commanded a platoon for 2 years. Janis Karpinski, (the brigade commander) had never commanded a battalion, commanded a company for about 9 months, and had about a year in charge of a platoon. (I can't pin down her service record, and various accounts do not agree - most do agree that she didn't stay in an assignment for more than one year) Promote incompetence, and bad things happen.

Placing men and women together in the same unit creates stress. To say that life for women in a combat unit (women are in aviation and air defense), combat support, or even combat service support unit is stressful is an understatement. At its best, is that it is a hostile environment toward women. The boy GIs spend an inordinate amount of time trying to get into the pants of the girl GIs, and there is a shortage of mature adults to put a stop to it. Even worse, when those responsible for preventing it, are the willing participants. Contributing to making a bad situation worse, are the girl GIs who play "queen for a year" and drop their pants for favored treatment. In my future was going to be commanding such a unit, and I got out rather than take such an order. In the words of Field Marshall Rommel "Don't fight a battle if you don't gain anything by winning." No less true in counter - insurgency warfare.

A digression on women in the Army. Deployments are physically hard, and most jobs in the army require either upper body strength or stamina beyond the capabilities of most women. It is my opinion that the best use of women in military service is in non deployed assignments, which basically means stay in the states in the army version of desk or medical jobs. There should be limited exceptions for nurses (who as officers don't get the same type of harassment the girl GIs do), and some military police and civil affairs assignment in cultures that require women to interact with civilian women.

How is this different from the racially segregated army? Before 1947, the army had black infantry regiments and white infantry regiments, black infantry divisions and white infantry divisions, same for cavalry and artillery. People were assigned the same job, but different units based on race. We don't have female infantry companies - big difference.

Reserve and guard units are being used as part time soldiers to expand the active army "footprint" as there are not enough active army units that can be fully equipped nad deployed. Reserve units are called up for 13 months and then release from active duty - they are never integrated into the active army personnel system and assignment policies. Ultimately, this is an attempt to fight war on the cheap. IN Pentagon accounting, active duty people are very expensive because their potential retirement and medical benefits are costed into their active duty time. This is not the case for reserve units and contractors (Blackwater), so the accounting system sees the use of contractors and reservist as cheaper than using active duty troops - and is one of the reasons the active force structure is not expanded to cover the deployments for war.

Basically, fighting wars interferes with the smooth peacetime operation of the army. The personnel system still operates at peacetime with the exceptions of "stop loss" and restricted reassignments until the unit returns from overseas. Otherwise, it is business as usual, with no mobilizations, or combining the reserve units into the total force. All of this influence the command climate in a particular unit, and impacts the people assigned there.