Action Alert: Ron Paul Supporters

[romacox]

Not too long ago I went to this website http://www.campaignforliberty.com/index.php? because I wanted to learn, understand and discuss Ron Paul ideas, and that is advertised as one of his websites. I was surprised to discover that an increasing number of posts are not what I had learned were Ron Paul ideas, and that some new comers, who had not done the prior research I had, were taking these anti-Ron Paulers as some kind of authority on Ron Paul

I also soon learned that when I posted something that was in line with Ron Paul's ideas (like on the Constitution) & including links to Ron Paul's statements, I was inundated with anti-Ron Paulers telling me what I could, and could not do as if they were some kind of authority.

I am so delighted that the Ron Paul supporters are still posting here regardless of the Anti-Ron Pauler's. However, for the sake of the new comer who goes to "Campaign for Liberty" looking to discuss Ron Paul ideas, I encourage you to post your ideas there as well. Thank you

[Epic]

can you link to an anti-ron paul post on the CFL site? CFL is Ron's advocacy organization.

[romacox]

I don't know if this will work but here is the link to one of many such experiences;

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=9238

If that does not work try logging into the site http://www.campaignforliberty.com/index.php ,
go to the Constitution under forum and click on to the post "The Constitution Virses No Government"

[FSP-Rebel]

I don't know if this will work but here is the link to one of many such experiences;

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=9238

If that does not work try logging into the site http://www.campaignforliberty.com/index.php ,
go to the Constitution under forum and click on to the post "The Constitution Virses No Government"
Just so you know, there are many anarchists/voluntaryists/mutualists in the liberty movement that participate in politics. I wouldn't say they are anti-Ron Paul, they just like to debate from the purist side of libertarianism.

[romacox]

I know, but that was not my point. Ron Paul supporters are posting less and less in the forum making it less and less of a place to learn and discuss Ron Paul ideas. Opposite ideas are great, but few of these anti-Ron Paul ideas are challenged.

[erowe1]

Be careful not to infer too much from anything Ron Paul says about the Constitution. I have never heard him speak of it in the sacrosanct kind of way a lot of other constitutionalists do. I know that he doesn't think it's perfect, particularly as it has been amended since the Civil War. But I suspect that if he were to speak candidly about the powers it granted government in its original form even before those amendments, he may well agree that it gives the government too much power.

The way I see the Constitution is as a tool. It's not some divinely inspired last word on what those in government have the right to do, and if it declares they have the right to do something that is actually wrong, then that doesn't make it any less wrong. But US government officials take oaths to uphold it, and that means they promise not to exercise any powers that aren't enumerated. So if we wish to compel those officials to restrain their powers, then demanding that they honor those oaths seems to me to be a valid part of our strategy.

But I see those oaths kind of analogous to this: Imagine you're a business owner and gangsters from the Mafia regularly demand that you pay them a tax in order for them to protect you by not killing you, and in the course of this arrangement they promise you that they will never tax you more than $100 in a week. Now, you might think to yourself, "Well, that's well and good that you make that promise, but you really don't have the right to steal anything at all from me to begin with." But you may still consider it prudent to hold them to that promise, and when the week comes that they do try to steal more than $100 appeal to their sense of honor to keep that oath.

The Constitution serves us in a similar way as that oath made by the Mafia in that analogy. We may be naive to imagine the politicians will keep their promises, as we would be to imagine the Mafia gangsters would keep theirs. But having those promises to fall back on is better than nothing. So it would be prudent for us to be well informed of what the oath to uphold the Constitution entails for those government officials, so that we can try and hold them to it.

[romacox]

"But what about the Framers' intentions? Should we value them today? What is so bad about a "living Constitution?" Dr. Paul argues that the Constitution is a contract between the government and the people. Contracts are the foundation of civilized behavior. Without a prearranged agreement, all association between consenting parties regresses into a "He said, she said" mess. The Constitution is no different. If the courts can simply change the meaning of its words, there is no true contract; under this current situation, we simply live by the often-irrational caprices of the current regime. "

"The solution that Ron Paul offers to this enormous problem is the elimination of all government programs that are not explicitly outlined in the Constitution. This basically amounts to the elimination of all executive departments besides Defense, State, and Justice. But this does not have to be done overnight."
http://www.ronpaul.com/books/the-rev...n-a-manifesto/

Again that was not my point. I am encouraging Ron Paul supporters, who likely know more about his views than I do, to post on Campaign For Liberty so that new comers are getting accurate information.

[Epic]

I'm pretty sure Ron Paul is cool with voluntarism, he was buddies with Rothbard and has said basically said he's cool with it ("in a free society, the socialists can go be socialist. But in a socialist society, and in today's society, those who seek freedom are not left alone"... paraphrasing)

He can't just come out and say that though... there's kind of an implicit wink, wink type of thing he has going on.

Basically, the liberty movement is broad, and even on ron paul inspired sites, there are gonna be advocates of a stateless/voluntary society (total non-aggression, markets for security and justice, etc).

There's a train going toward the less government side. Get off wherever you want. Some people take it the whole way.

re: CFL forum, it's really new. This is the main Ron Paul forum. Daily Paul too.

[erowe1]

Again that was not my point. I am encouraging Ron Paul supporters, who likely know more about his views than I do, to post on Campaign For Liberty so that new comers are getting accurate information.

Anybody who posts at the CFL forums represents only themselves. Therefore, the information they give is already an accurate presentation of what they themselves believe, and should not be taken as anything else.

[romacox]

Perhaps I am being unclear. This was a discussion about Ron Paul supporting the Constitution as opposed to no Government. In all of his statements he is for amending the Constitution in some areas (it is not perfect), but he is not for eliminating it all together, and going for no government.

[Epic]

Perhaps I am being unclear. This was a discussion about Ron Paul supporting the Constitution as opposed to no Government. In all of his statements he is for amending the Constitution in some areas (it is not perfect), but he is not for eliminating it all together, and going for no government.

Correct. I think even the people you were conversing with on the CFL site understand this.

[erowe1]

Perhaps I am being unclear. This was a discussion about Ron Paul supporting the Constitution as opposed to no Government. In all of his statements he is for amending the Constitution in some areas (it is not perfect), but he is not for eliminating it all together, and going for no government.

That seems to be true. I have heard him say in plain black and white terms that he is not an anarchist.

But the guy above is right. The circle of libertarians that Ron Paul is closest to is definitely well-represented by its fair share of anarchists. I don't think that people who hold those views are doing any injustice to the CFL forums by posting there. To say that they are would be to exclude Lew Rockwell (Ron Paul's former chief of staff) and the late Murray Rothbard (a very close associate of RP's), as well as other people from his inner circle.

[chudrockz]

Perhaps I am being unclear. This was a discussion about Ron Paul supporting the Constitution as opposed to no Government. In all of his statements he is for amending the Constitution in some areas (it is not perfect), but he is not for eliminating it all together, and going for no government.

No, he's not in favor of that. But some of his supporters, myself included, are. It's the ideal situation (for me) and though in some ways it could then be said that I "disagree" with Ron Paul... in the end, his version of the perfect world is INFINTELY closer to mine than, say, Nancy Pelosi's (or Newt Gingrich's, etc. etc.)

[romacox]

It sounds as if some of you would not like to take this action step...no problem.

But, my post is intended for those who would like to spread the Ron Paul goals, increase the numbers, and educate. I am sure you would appreciate helping Campaign For Liberty to do that by posting there. Thank you

[romacox]

P.S. Not long ago there were several complaints that some members were getting verbally abusive, and the number of posts dropped considerably at Campaign for liberty. But that has sense changed, and many that were guilty of attacking others must have been notified because they are now very kind in their replies . I hope people start returning.

I do not agree with Ron Paul on some issues myself (like abortion) but he is closer to my views than any political leader so far. I sure hope someone like this gets elected. I agree with some of the ideas of the Conservatives, and Constitutionalists, but Ron Paul is so much closer to my goals for this Country.

[NerveShocker]

So you need some help whooping on them crazy anarchists eh. Sounds like fun to me.

[romacox]

I love your reply NerveShocker. :D But hearing any intelligent discussion of Ron Paul ideas on that website would be great whether on the Constitution Verses Anarchy or on other subjects you like discussing.