ANGER WITH FEDERAL GOVERNMENT NOT ENOUGH By Chuck Baldwin

[bobbyw24]

By Chuck Baldwin
December 18, 2009
NewsWithViews.com

According to Rasmussen Reports, "Seventy-one percent (71%) of voters nationwide say they're at least somewhat angry about the current policies of the federal government. That figure includes 46% who are Very Angry.

"The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that only 27% are not angry about the government's policies, including 10% who are Not at All Angry."

The report goes on to say, "The data suggests that the level of anger is growing. The 71% who are angry at federal government policies today is up five percentage points since September.

"Even more stunning, the 46% who are Very Angry is up 10 percentage points from September."

The report also states, "The latest numbers show that only nine percent (9%) of voters trust the judgment of America's political leaders more than the judment of the American people." It further states, "Seventy-one percent (71%) believe the federal government has become a special interest group that looks out primarily for its own interests. Sixty-eight percent (68%) believe that government and big business work together in ways that hurt consumers and investors."

Rasmussen Reports goes on to say that voter opposition to the proposed health care plan, government bailouts, and higher taxes is especially high.

See the report here: http://tinyurl.com/rasmussen-71pc-angry-at-govt

That Americans are angry with the federal government is nothing new. As a general rule, Americans STAY angry with the federal government. So what? Nothing changes, anger and discontentment notwithstanding.

Oh! Occasionally, grassroots effort can be mustered in sufficient quantity to stop whatever happens to be the latest effort by the miscreants in Washington, D.C., that tramples our freedoms. But only occasionally. The only recent triumph I can think of was when G.W. Bush, Lindsey Graham, and John McCain tried to ram an amnesty bill for illegal aliens through Congress. But never fear, Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi, and Harry Reid will pick up that particular baton soon enough.

I'm old enough to remember when giving the Panama Canal away was opposed by virtually everyone outside the Beltway. It changed nothing. Jimmy Carter and Congress gave it away, anyway. Most people oppose the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. So what? Our troops are not only still there, but more are on the way. Most people believe children should be allowed to pray and read the Bible in school. So what? They still are forbidden from doing so. Most people believed former Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore had the right to post the Ten Commandments in his courtroom. So what? He was forced to take them down, anyway (and removed from office in the process). I could go on, but you get the point.

read on

http://www.newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin556.htm

[Bucjason]

Chucky is right.

[HOLLYWOOD]

Americans don't realize it they are angry with 80% of their paychecks going to governments at all levels and are just starting to realize the Fraud, Theft, & Waste of government. simple


BTW...
Rasmussen is one of the most inaccurate pollster orgs out there, of course favoring the right and rigging how the questions are asked...NEOCON Reports
I think PPP and SurveyUSA polls are at the top in accuracy of polls guess who's at the bottom(inaccuracy) Zogby and Rasmussen.

Chuck forgets, we covertly OWN Panama as a country with a; huge military, Covert and Contracted Americans residing within the boarders. It's the main staging area for South America operations by every government agency you can think of. Even Juan McCain was born in Panama... Washington DC controls Panama... we didn't give anything away except public formality for the Dumbed Down public of the world.

[YumYum]

: "Most people believe children should be allowed to pray and read the Bible in school. So what? They still are forbidden from doing so. Most people believed former Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore had the right to post the Ten Commandments in his courtroom. So what? He was forced to take them down, anyway (and removed from office in the process). I could go on, but you get the point."

Yeah, I get the point, Pastor Baldwin. You want us all to become Christians.

[georgiaboy]

Ladies and Gentlemen, freedom in America has only one hope: the resurrection of State independence and sovereignty. Fortunately, there are rumblings around the country that this revival has already begun.

this was the point of the article. I'm beginning to agree with the good pastor.

[FrankRep]

Yeah, I get the point, Pastor Baldwin. You want us all to become Christians.

Some people believe that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights.

[bobbyw24]

Some people believe that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights.

How dare you quote The Declaration of Independence

[YumYum]

Some people believe that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights.

And this is the "rights" that Christians are adhering to.

Matthew 28: 18-20 says:

"Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."

This is what Christians are commanded to do: recruit.

This is what some Christians on this forum are doing: recruiting

This is what Pastor Baldwin is doing: recruiting

I don’t want to be recruited!

[ChaosControl]

Until the level of very angry is at 100%, the anger will be not enough in my opinion. That anyone is not upset with the government is pathetic. It just goes to show how many people are ignorant. But sometimes you cannot blame them, the whole "blissfully ignorant" thing is pretty true

[phill4paul]

GunnyFreedom/Glen Bradley is correct when he says the only way to combat this is through state sovereignty rights.
Only a state has enough individuals to effectively combat the federal government. What would happen tomorrow if on MSM it was reported that the federal government had to send in troops and dismantle the government of any individual state?

[Nate]

And this is the "rights" that Christians are adhering to.

Matthew 28: 18-20 says:

"Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."

This is what Christians are commanded to do: recruit.

This is what some Christians on this forum are doing: recruiting

This is what Pastor Baldwin is doing: recruiting

I don’t want to be recruited!

So don't join. Christianity is a voluntary faith. Christians have the right to not shut up about what they believe & nobody has the "RIGHT" to make them. No matter if you want to hear them or not. Chuck Baldwin wants you to become a Christian but you have the right to not become one. You have the right to represent whatever religious or non-religious ideologies you want and so do Christians. This is called freedom.

[Captain Shays]

I had some questions in this thread and Baldwin answered them with his new article which I agree with wholeheartedly
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=223320

[Captain Shays]

And this is the "rights" that Christians are adhering to.

Matthew 28: 18-20 says:

"Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."

This is what Christians are commanded to do: recruit.

This is what some Christians on this forum are doing: recruiting

This is what Pastor Baldwin is doing: recruiting

I don’t want to be recruited!


Whether you know it or agree with it Christianity is under attack in this country.

EVERY example Pastor Baldwin pointed was relative to a Christian's right to freely express his faith being threatened in some way, all in violation to the Constitution.

Congress shall write no law respecting the establishment of religion OR "RESTRICTING THE FREE EXPRESSION THEREOF"

No 8 yr old kid should be suspended from school for drawing a picture of the crucified Jesus and people holding your position facilitate that sort of lunacy.

[libertygrl]

So don't join. Christianity is a voluntary faith. Christians have the right to not shut up about what they believe & nobody has the "RIGHT" to make them. No matter if you want to hear them or not. Chuck Baldwin wants you to become a Christian but you have the right to not become one. You have the right to represent whatever religious or non-religious ideologies you want and so do Christians. This is called freedom.

Amen! (whoops - was that too "religious?") :rolleyes: Besides, he's a freakin' Pastor. How else do you expect him to speak?

[YumYum]

So don't join. Christianity is a voluntary faith. Christians have the right to not shut up about what they believe & nobody has the "RIGHT" to make them. No matter if you want to hear them or not. Chuck Baldwin wants you to become a Christian but you have the right to not become one. You have the right to represent whatever religious or non-religious ideologies you want and so do Christians. This is called freedom.

I did join, and I got out. But I don't ever want it shoved down my throat again. If I worship Jesus, I will do it because I make a choice, not because I am forced to. Christians are insensitive to this issue. That is why they will lose their religious freedoms in this country. If Christians would just mind their own business and be glad that they are not being fed to lions, they would keep religious freedoms in check. But since they are determined to turn this country into a "Theocracy", they will be responsible for destroying religious freedoms in this country. There are too many of us who will fight back. You will not shove it down my throat ever again.

[YumYum]

Whether you know it or agree with it Christianity is under attack in this country.

EVERY example Pastor Baldwin pointed was relative to a Christian's right to freely express his faith being threatened in some way, all in violation to the Constitution.

Congress shall write no law respecting the establishment of religion OR "RESTRICTING THE FREE EXPRESSION THEREOF"

No 8 yr old kid should be suspended from school for drawing a picture of the crucified Jesus and people holding your position facilitate that sort of lunacy.

Christianity should be under attack. The TV evangelicals make billions of dollars and pay no taxes, while people suffer. Express your faith, but let me express mine. Religion is a snare and a racket. Its about money, and nothing to do with Jesus. No one will ever shove it down my throat again.

[jmdrake]

:rolleyes: Would you prefer Christians to follow the old testament command of wiping out every man, woman and child in of the tribes standing in the way of conquest of the promised land? You don't want to be recruited, don't be. When the Jehovah's witness comes to the door just say no. When the radio or tv evangelist comes on, change the channel. Unless you are such a weak willed sap that you can't help being "recuited" then you have nothing to worry about.


And this is the "rights" that Christians are adhering to.

Matthew 28: 18-20 says:

"Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."

This is what Christians are commanded to do: recruit.

This is what some Christians on this forum are doing: recruiting

This is what Pastor Baldwin is doing: recruiting

I don’t want to be recruited!

[jmdrake]

Christianity should be under attack. The TV evangelicals make billions of dollars and pay no taxes, while people suffer. Express your faith, but let me express mine. Religion is a snare and a racket. Its about money, and nothing to do with Jesus. No one will ever shove it down my throat again.

Pastors have to pay taxes on their salary just like everyone else. It's the organization that is tax free. But non religious organizations are tax free too. Please educate yourself.

http://www.baptistbulletin.org/?p=2223

The Pastor and His Salary Package

Posted February 2, 2009 in Jan/Feb '09 Issue

by James Rickard

In the mid-1960s as a young accountant, I began helping my pastor prepare his state and federal tax returns. I was surprised at his meager salary, lack of fringe benefits, and inability to provide financially for his future. His family lived in a church-owned parsonage totally controlled by the church; they couldn’t even paint a wall without committee approval. It was a large farmhouse that was difficult to maintain and expensive to heat. I remember visiting that parsonage and finding his wife in tears over the frustration of living under those conditions. And I remember thinking, This is not right. Little did I know how that experience would begin to sow the seeds for the Stewardship Services Foundation, a ministry that would allow me to devote my energies to counseling pastors regarding finances, helping them prepare their personal income tax returns, and teaching church boards how to structure pastors’ salary packages within the limits of IRS tax law. As a result, in 1977 the Stewardship Services Foundation ministry was born.

A church board needs to know about salary packages and their proper application in the budget process. The most important issue when it comes to this subject is the board’s attitude-a proper understanding of the salary package issue and the desire to meet the needs of the pastor’s family with a spirit of generosity.

[jmdrake]

: "Most people believe children should be allowed to pray and read the Bible in school. So what? They still are forbidden from doing so. Most people believed former Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore had the right to post the Ten Commandments in his courtroom. So what? He was forced to take them down, anyway (and removed from office in the process). I could go on, but you get the point."

Yeah, I get the point, Pastor Baldwin. You want us all to become Christians.

First amendment freedom of speech and free exercise doesn't end at the schoolhouse door. Actually the supreme court has repeatedly said that children have a right to read their Bible and pray as long as they do it on their own free time in a non disruptive manner. And for the 10 commandments? We have greek gods all over public buildings and that doesn't seem to be a problem for anyone. I'm not a big fan of Roy Moore, but that really got blown out of proportion.

[jmdrake]

Let's get the thread back on track. Bobby didn't post the most important part. We need to quit focusing solely on the federal government! Those who want big government focus all of their energy there and it's almost impossible to win. We need to look winning state and local races and empowering our states to resist globalism.

Anger and opposition to Washington's policies and edicts--no matter now egregious--hardly ever translate into anything beyond words of frustration. And Washington politicians don't pay much attention to rhetoric--not even their own.

You see, the wizards in Washington and on Wall Street have us figured out. Along with their compatriots in the propaganda press corps, they know that no matter how loudly we scream, how much we protest, or how angry we become, the system is rigged to protect them. The best we the people can seem to come up with is "throwing the bums out" every two or four years. BUT NOTHING CHANGES--at least, not in terms of restoring the fundamental principles of freedom and constitutional government.

Throw out George H.W. Bush in 1992, and nothing changes. Throw the Democrats out of Congress in 1994, and nothing changes. Throw Bill Clinton's party out of the White House in 2000, and nothing changes. Throw out G.W. Bush's Republicans in 2008, and nothing changes. The only thing that happens with a changing of the guard is an escalation in the pace of whatever version of socialism--or Big Government program--is currently in vogue. With Bush it meant expanding the Warfare State. With Obama it means expanding the Welfare State. But both do everything they can to expand Big Government.

When will we awaken to the reality that Washington, D.C., has had the American people chasing their tails for decades? People, wake up! As long as we continue to focus our attention and energy on Washington, D.C., we will only continue to supply more rope to those who wish to hang us.

Washington, D.C., is too far gone to salvage. Admit it! Washington is a cesspool, a landfill, and a putrid pond of corruption and duplicity. Neither the Republican nor Democratic Party will ever allow a principled constitutionalist to become its Presidential nominee. No matter whom we elect as President, the beat toward Big-Government socialism and one-world internationalism will go on without interruption. Big Government scalawags own the entire federal system, including Big Media, Big Business, Big Labor, Big Religion, and Big Special Interest Groups. They are all feeding at the government teat.

Therefore, it is absolutely obligatory that freedom-minded Americans refocus their attention to electing State legislators, governors, judges and sheriffs who will fearlessly defend their God-given liberties. And, as plainly and emphatically as I know how to say it, I am telling you: ONLY THE STATES CAN DEFEND OUR LIBERTY NOW! And awakening to this reality means we will have to completely readjust our thinking and priorities.

It means awakening to the fact that Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity, and Bill O'Reilly (and the rest of Big Media's talking heads) are, for the most part, irrelevant to providing real solutions to the continuing loss of liberty. And, in truth, they are, more often than not, part of the problem, because they continue to focus our attention on Washington, D.C., and off the source of genuine solution, which lies with the states drawing a constitutional line in the sand for freedom. Good grief! Beck and O'Reilly have recently even advocated for higher federal taxes! Yeah! That's a real solution: more power and money to Washington, D.C. Ughhh!

Instead of getting all worked up about what Glenn Beck says or what Sarah Palin says or what CFR member and Big Government neocon Newt Gingrich says, start paying attention to what your State legislators and candidates are saying.


If we had more State legislators such as Washington State's Matthew Shea; Georgia's Bobby Franklin; Pennsylvania's Sam Rohrer; New Hampshire's Dan Itse; Michigan's Paul Opsommer; Oklahoma's Randy Brogdon, Sally Kern and Charles Key; Montana's Rick Jore, Greg Hinkle, and Joel Boniek; Tennessee's Susan Lynn; South Carolina's Michael Pitts and Lee Bright; Missouri's Jim Guest and Cynthia Davis; and sheriffs such as South Carolina's Ray Nash, Arizona's Richard Mack and Joe Arpaio, Montana's Jay Printz and Shane Harrington, etc., it wouldn't matter what those nincompoops inside the Beltway do. The federal government cannot violate your rights and steal your freedoms without the consent and approbation of your State government.

Folks, let's get down to where the rubber meets the road: the reason we are in the miserable mess we are in is because the states have--either wittingly or unwittingly--ceded their authority and independence to Washington, D.C. Therefore, it is now critical that states reclaim their authority--authority that is duly granted them under the US Constitution.

All of us who call ourselves conservatives or constitutionalists or libertarians (who, no doubt, compose a majority, especially in "red" states) need to retake their State governments. Elect a governor who knows how to say "No" to the federal government. Elect a State legislature that knows how to say "No" to Washington, D.C. Elect sheriffs and State judges who understand the Constitution, State sovereignty, and the principles of freedom--and who are courageous enough to defend those sacred principles in the face of attempted federal usurpation.

The truth is, for all intents and purposes, we could turn off television completely and be in no worse shape. And newspapers are no better. The vast majority of them blatantly support and promote Big Government. As Mark Twain said, "If you don't read the newspaper, you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed."

With Big Media, it's all about Washington politics. Period. For the most part, the conservative-liberal/Republican-Democrat paradigm is nothing but a distraction at best, and a scam at worst, to keep all of us safely on the federal reservation, where we are without hope or recourse to actually change anything.

Ladies and Gentlemen, freedom in America has only one hope: the resurrection of State independence and sovereignty. Fortunately, there are rumblings around the country that this revival has already begun.

The last time I checked, some 38 states have introduced Tenth Amendment resolutions--or some form of federal nullification proposals--in their State assemblies. To follow the status of various states' rights initiatives, keep an eye on these two web sites. Web site one and Web site two.

If conservatives/constitutionalists/libertarians would spend as much time and energy influencing elections and policies at the State and local levels as they attempt to do at the national level, we could turn this floundering ship of state around. If he had the support and backing of his State's legislature and sheriffs, imagine what ONE constitutionalist governor could do. I get goose bumps thinking about it!

Imagine a State with its own financial system--its own currency, banks, regulatory agencies, etc. Imagine a State with its own militia--under the authority of the governor only--completely independent from any responsibility to the President or federal government. Imagine a State with an education system unfettered by the federal Department of Education. Imagine a State where the BLM, the FBI, the ATF, and the DEA had to actually submit to State law. Imagine a State with no federal bribes, or federal "funding" as it is commonly called--except as is constitutionally constructed (with no strings attached). Imagine a State with its own health care system. Imagine a State with no FEMA--UNLESS INVITED IN. Imagine a State that would not allow Washington's spooks to unlawfully spy on law-abiding citizens. Imagine a State that actually had a say in how much land the federal government could claim for its own. Imagine a State where citizens never had to worry about a national ID act. Imagine a State that would protect the right of its citizens to freely express their faith in the public square. Imagine a State that did not demand that its farmers put RFID computer chips in their livestock. Imagine a State that would let you drill a well without reporting it to the federal government. And for some really fun mind games, imagine a State that would be willing to challenge the constitutionality and legitimacy of the direct income tax and the IRS. All of this--and more--is attainable with a constitutionalist State government committed to protecting the liberties of its citizens.

I repeat: freedom in America has only one hope: the resurrection of State independence and sovereignty. In the US Constitution, our Founding Fathers sagaciously reserved to State governments their independence and sovereignty, knowing that they had the awesome responsibility of being the last (and greatest) vanguard of liberty for the American people. They never intended or imagined that the states would ever become a doormat for the central government (which is what most of them have become).

In this regard, the states that are proposing State sovereignty resolutions should immediately band together to overturn the 17th Amendment, because this amendment strips the states of their constitutional powers by turning US senators into Washington insiders, who are more beholden to Washington interests than the interests and well-being of the states that they are supposed to represent.

If the 71% of voters who are angry with the federal government would channel their energies into electing constitutionalist governors and State legislators, their anger might actually produce real and lasting change. As it is, efforts to "reform" Washington, D.C., are like trying to teach a hog to take a bath. Instead, let the hog wallow in the mud, but make sure the mudhole stays small; don't let it spread to your back yard. And keeping that Washington mudhole small is the job of the states. And, in case you have not noticed, the mudhole has already grown to the point that it's not just in your back yard; it's on your front porch and about to consume your whole house.

[mczerone]

Some people believe that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights.

Like establishing a State religion, and using public funds to enrich their coffers?

Seems like Chucky Baldwin would be the first person up in arms if Dearborn's population voted to use city funds to build a minaret and giant call to prayer bell to cater to their near-majority Islam population, but has no problems doing the same type of thing to further his own cult.

[FrankRep]

Christianity should be under attack. The TV evangelicals make billions of dollars and pay no taxes, while people suffer. Express your faith, but let me express mine. Religion is a snare and a racket. Its about money, and nothing to do with Jesus. No one will ever shove it down my throat again.

Religious Organizations, like Government, can be corrupted by power.
I'm against the 501(c)(3) Tax Exempt Status though.

[nbhadja]

The anger means nothing.

All it shows is that a large percent of Americans have been brainwashed into believing our socialist economy is really free market and that the free market is the cause of this mess. These sheep want more government.

And as for the ones against more government, majority of them are war loving neo-con idiots who believe that people like Romney, Palin, Bush, and McCain are for small government when in reality they big government liberals.

[jmdrake]

Like establishing a State religion, and using public funds to enrich their coffers?

Seems like Chucky Baldwin would be the first person up in arms if Dearborn's population voted to use city funds to build a minaret and giant call to prayer bell to cater to their near-majority Islam population, but has no problems doing the same type of thing to further his own cult.

Chuck Baldwin has spoken out vehemently against using government funds to support ANY religion! He called Bush's faith based initiatives "Un-Godly, Un-Christian, Un-Biblical And Un-Constitutional"

http://www.theamericanview.com/index.php?id=105

It's ok to be against Baldwin, but do you have to make up lies to "prove" your point?

[jmdrake]

Religious Organizations, like Government, can be corrupted by power.
I'm against the 501(c)(3) Tax Exempt Status though.

501(c)(3) status shouldn't be necessary because there shouldn't be an income tax. That said both religious and no religious organizations get 501(c)(3) status. The red cross for example.

[Mini-Me]

: "Most people believe children should be allowed to pray and read the Bible in school. So what? They still are forbidden from doing so. Most people believed former Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore had the right to post the Ten Commandments in his courtroom. So what? He was forced to take them down, anyway (and removed from office in the process). I could go on, but you get the point."

Yeah, I get the point, Pastor Baldwin. You want us all to become Christians.

Granted, I imagine Chuck Baldwin wouldn't like a judge posting the Ten Satanic Commandments in his courtroom, and unless he'd be okay with it, he's being a bit selective about religious freedom.

That said, Baldwin's essay was hardly about religion in general or Christianity in particular, and it's pretty sad the entire thread became derailed because of an entirely incidental comment he made. Perhaps we should focus on his main point?

[FrankRep]

501(c)(3) status shouldn't be necessary because there shouldn't be an income tax. That said both religious and no religious organizations get 501(c)(3) status. The red cross for example.
:D Indeed.

[tpreitzel]

Granted, I imagine Chuck Baldwin wouldn't like a judge posting the Ten Satanic Commandments in his courtroom, and unless he'd be okay with it, he's being a bit selective about religious freedom.

Right and appropriately so because the "Ten Satanic Commandments" have no bearing on our judicial system while the Ten Commandments do. Frankly, our whole system of government is quite selective if strictly followed. Get over it. :)



That said, Baldwin's essay was hardly about religion in general or Christianity in particular, and it's pretty sad the entire thread became derailed because of an entirely incidental comment he made. Perhaps we should focus on his main point?

True. Strident and impetuous God-haters always self-destruct in word and deed.

[jmdrake]

Granted, I imagine Chuck Baldwin wouldn't like a judge posting the Ten Satanic Commandments in his courtroom, and unless he'd be okay with it, he's being a bit selective about religious freedom.


I don't know of any historical reference to the satanic 10 commandments to the development of western civilization. On the other hand many government buildings have Greek and Roman gods all over them and Christians usually don't make a fuss. I've never heard Baldwin complain. Some Christians are starting to protest this, but I think that's mainly to point out the hypocrisy of cracking down on any public display of Christian religion in a society that practically revels in Greek mythology.



That said, Baldwin's essay was hardly about religion in general or Christianity in particular, and it's pretty sad the entire thread became derailed because of an entirely incidental comment he made. Perhaps we should focus on his main point?

True. Some folks just hate Christians so much they can't help themselves. (I know...I know. He just doesn't want to be "recruited". :rolleyes: )

[Mini-Me]

Right and appropriately so because the "Ten Satanic Commandments" have no bearing on our judicial system while the Ten Commandments do. Frankly, our whole system of government is quite selective if strictly followed. Get over it. :)
Haha...if either of us were happy enough with the way government works right now to "get over it," I don't think we'd be here. ;)



True. Strident and impetuous God-haters always self-destruct in word and deed.
I wouldn't really call very many people "God-haters." I think some believers use/abuse that term mainly because they have trouble conceiving of genuine nonbelievers. For good or ill, some nonbelievers are more sensitive than others about real or perceived attempts to force them to believe. YumYum, it seems, may have gone off the deep end this time. ;) It's a shame too, because Baldwin wrote a good article.


I don't know of any historical reference to the satanic 10 commandments to the development of western civilization. On the other hand many government buildings have Greek and Roman gods all over them and Christians usually don't make a fuss. I've never heard Baldwin complain. Some Christians are starting to protest this, but I think that's mainly to point out the hypocrisy of cracking down on any public display of Christian religion in a society that practically revels in Greek mythology.
Frankly, I think most Americans - Christians and non-Christians alike - have very narrow, selfish, and selective views on the subject of religious freedom that are entirely ungrounded in principle...
You very well may be right about Baldwin though. I made my comment on a "hunch," but he may very well be a lot more generally tolerant than I'd expect.



True. Some folks just hate Christians so much they can't help themselves. (I know...I know. He just doesn't want to be "recruited". :rolleyes: )
Yeah...I'm not sure if I'd use the word "hate," but YumYum sounds very bitter about his upbringing or something.

[tpreitzel]

Haha...if either of us were happy enough with the way government works right now to "get over it," I don't think we'd be here. ;)

True. ;)



I wouldn't really call very many people "God-haters." I think some believers use/abuse that term mainly because they have trouble conceiving of genuine nonbelievers. For good or ill, some nonbelievers are more sensitive than others about real or perceived attempts to force them to believe. YumYum, it seems, may have gone off the deep end this time. ;) It's a shame too, because Baldwin wrote a good article.

I really don't abuse the term, God-haters. Review YumYum's posting history. This individual clearly has severe issues with Christianity and I can guess where those issues might have originated. I will agree on one point. Neither the government nor any Christian group have the right FORCING Christianity on any other group, e.g. native Americans. The same is true for all religions. However, NO group has the right to PREVENT (through force) Christians or members of any other religion from openly expressing their faith as long as no permanent physical harm occurs whether in government or not.

[jmdrake]

I wouldn't really call very many people "God-haters." I think some believers use/abuse that term mainly because they have trouble conceiving of genuine nonbelievers. For good or ill, some nonbelievers are more sensitive than others about real or perceived attempts to force them to believe. YumYum, it seems, may have gone off the deep end this time. ;) It's a shame too, because Baldwin wrote a good article.


Speaking only for myself I don't have a problem with non-believers in general. For instance I'm cool with ClayTrainor. As long as we can all openly share in the free marketplace of ideas it's all good.



Frankly, I think most Americans - Christians and non-Christians alike - have very narrow, selfish, and selective views on the subject of religious freedom that are entirely ungrounded in principle...
You very well may be right about Baldwin though. I made my comment on a "hunch," but he may very well be a lot more generally tolerant than I'd expect.


You have a point. I try to be consistent. If greek gods/godesses were banned from public buildings then I could see banning the 10 commandments too. I think the new Swiss law banning minarets on mosques is dumb and I'd fight that if they tried to pass it here. And if neo-pagan public school kids wanted to read Alistar Crowley on their lunch break and play with a ouiji board, I wouldn't have a problem as long as Christian kids had the same opportunity to practice their religion. But religious freedom can be a touchy subject.



Yeah...I'm not sure if I'd use the word "hate," but YumYum sounds very bitter about his upbringing or something.

Maybe hate is true strong. Fear? A "theophobe"? :p

[MN Patriot]

Americans don't realize it they are angry with 80% of their paychecks going to governments at all levels and are just starting to realize the Fraud, Theft, & Waste of government. simple


Here's an idea...