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AutonomousLiberty
12-13-2009, 08:51 AM
Is it a contradiction to initiate violence against individuals to protect said individuals from the initiation of violence?

--begin quoted text:

Those economists and others who espouse the philosophy of laissez faire believe that the freedom of the market should be upheld and that property rights must not be invaded. Nevertheless, they strongly believe that defense service cannot be supplied by the market and that defense against invasion of property must therefore be supplied outside the free market, by the coercive force of the government. In arguing thus, they are caught in an insoluble contradiction, for they sanction and advocate massive invasion of property by the very agency (government) that is supposed to defend people against invasion! For a laissez-faire government would necessarily have to seize its revenues by the invasion of property called taxation and would arrogate to itself a compulsory monopoly of defense services over some arbitrarily designated territorial area.

The laissez-faire theorists (who are here joined by almost all other writers) attempt to redeem their position from this glaring contradiction by asserting that a purely free-market defense service could not exist and that therefore those who value highly a forcible defense against violence would have to fall back on the State (despite its black historical record as the great engine of invasive violence) as a necessary evil for the protection of person and property.

The laissez-faireists offer several objections to the idea of free-market defense. One objection holds that, since a free market of exchanges presupposes a system of property rights, therefore the State is needed to define and allocate the structure of such rights. But we have seen that the principles of a free society do imply a very definite theory of property rights, namely, self-ownership and the ownership of natural resources found and transformed by one's labor. Therefore, no State or similar agency contrary to the market is needed to define or allocate property rights. This can and will be done by the use of reason and through market processes themselves; any other allocation or definition would be completely arbitrary and contrary to the principles of the free society.

A similar doctrine holds that defense must be supplied by the State because of the unique status of defense as a necessary precondition of market activity, as a function without which a market economy could not exist. Yet this argument is a non sequitur that proves far too much. It was the fallacy of the classical economists to consider goods and services in terms of large classes; instead, modern economics demonstrates that services must be considered in terms of marginal units. For all actions on the market are marginal.

If we begin to treat whole classes instead of marginal units, we can discover a great myriad of necessary, indispensable goods and services all of which might be considered as "preconditions" of market activity. Is not land room vital, or food for each participant, or clothing, or shelter? Can a market long exist without them? And what of paper, which has become a basic requisite of market activity in the complex modern economy? Must all these goods and services therefore be supplied by the State and the State only?

The laissez-faireist also assumes that there must be a single compulsory monopoly of coercion and decision-making in society, that there must, for example, be one Supreme Court to hand down final and unquestioned decisions. But he fails to recognize that the world has lived quite well throughout its existence without a single, ultimate decision-maker over its whole inhabited surface.

The Argentinian, for example, lives in a state of "anarchy," of nongovernment, in relation to the citizen of Uruguay – or of Ceylon. And yet the private citizens of these and other countries live and trade together without getting into insoluble legal conflicts, despite the absence of a common governmental ruler. The Argentinian who believes he has been aggressed upon by a Ceylonese, for example, takes his grievance to an Argentinian court, and its decision is recognized by the Ceylonese courts – and vice versa if the Ceylonese is the aggrieved party.

Although it is true that the separate nation-States have warred interminably against each other, the private citizens of the various countries, despite widely differing legal systems, have managed to live together in harmony without having a single government over them. If the citizens of northern Montana and of Saskatchewan across the border can live and trade together in harmony without a common government, so can the citizens of northern and of southern Montana. In short, the present-day boundaries of nations are purely historical and arbitrary, and there is no more need for a monopoly government over the citizens of one country than there is for one between the citizens of two different nations.

--end quoted text

While I've already created a thread (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=2447655) for this subject alone, I've decided to include it here, as it compliments the above very well. It is hoped no one minds. :)

--begin quoted text:

It is all the more curious, incidentally, that while laissez-faireists should by the logic of their position, be ardent believers in a single, unified world government, so that no one will live in a state of "anarchy" in relation to anyone else, they almost never are. And once one concedes that a single world government is not necessary, then where does one logically stop at the permissibility of separate states? If Canada and the United States can be separate nations without being denounced as being in a state of impermissible "anarchy," why may not the South secede from the United States? New York State from the Union? New York City from the state? Why may not Manhattan secede? Each neighborhood? Each block? Each house? Each person? But, of course, if each person may secede from government, we have virtually arrived at the purely free society, where defense is supplied along with all other services by the free market and where the invasive State has ceased to exist.

--end quoted text

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard146.html

torchbearer
12-13-2009, 09:10 AM
a person who doesn't defend their rights against those who would forcefully take them eventually will have no rights. ie a slave.
The only rights a pacifist has are those that have yet been taken from him by force.
Enjoy your prison. Please don't resist.

ClayTrainor
12-13-2009, 09:13 AM
a person who doesn't defend their rights against those who would forcefully take them eventually will have no rights. ie a slave.
The only rights a pacifist has are those that have yet been taken from him by force.
Enjoy your prison. Please don't resist.

Agreed.

The only justified form of violence, is in self defense where the aggression has been initiated against you, or an innocent victim.

Kludge
12-13-2009, 09:50 AM
Pacifism is just another form of idealism. I act a pacifist because I would like everyone to be a pacifist, but if I no longer saw a benefit in pacifism, I would, of course, give up on it. Every justice system is the most offensive system of oppression possible by people/gov't in which they, by threat of imprisonment and death (for resistors), are mandated to act a certain way so they are "compatible" with others. I'm not saying I dislike when bad things happen to bad people, but to force it in belief that you must for the sake of morality is sick, often inconsistent, and incredibly offensive. No aggression is necessary; a "reaction" is still a new action; and aggression in the name of justice does so obviously violate the NAP.

The only aggression I could ever see as possibly being moral (by my own made-up morality, of course) is self-defense, but that is NOT what justice is. Under most circumstances, Justice is retaliatory aggression (not defensive) -- in most cases, it has nothing to do with protection. Police (again, in most cases) do not protect; police are not proactive; police are reactive. Of course, in cases where the goal is to lock away people incompatible with your ideal society who you believe pose a threat to others, that form of preventative aggression is perhaps reasonable, but fess up to that being your goal, dammit! Deportation, of course, would be ideal, then slave labor, then our prison system, and then execution, if no alternative exists. Ideally, if prisoners are unable to support themselves through labor, a citizen would pay the government to keep the prisoner alive. Otherwise, they should either starve to death or be executed in a cost-effective, or at least amusing, manner.

"... pacifism [is] a dilemma. If everybody was a pacifist then everything would be perfect. But nobody is going to be a pacifist unless I am first. But if I am and somebody else is not, then I get screwed. He said that there were five choices under that circumstance. The first was napalming farmers and the second was executing your parents. The third was hypocrisy, the fourth was cowardice, and the fifth was to swallow the dilemma. Zenarchists are trained in dilemma swallowing. "

Danke
12-13-2009, 09:58 AM
Pacifism is just another form of idealism. I act a pacifist because I would like everyone to be a pacifist, but if I no longer saw a benefit in pacifism, I would, of course, give up on it. Every justice system is the most offensive system of oppression possible by people/gov't in which they, by threat of imprisonment and death (for resistors), are mandated to act a certain way so they are "compatible" with others. I'm not saying I dislike when bad things happen to bad people, but to force it in belief that you must for the sake of morality is sick, often inconsistent, and incredibly offensive. No aggression is necessary; a "reaction" is still a new action; and aggression in the name of justice does so obviously violate the NAP.

The only aggression I could ever see as possibly being moral (by my own made-up morality, of course) is self-defense, but that is NOT what justice is. Under most circumstances, Justice is retaliatory aggression (not defensive) -- in most cases, it has nothing to do with protection. Police (again, in most cases) do not protect; police are not proactive; police are reactive. Of course, in cases where the goal is to lock away people incompatible with your ideal society who you believe pose a threat to others, that form of preventative aggression is perhaps reasonable, but fess up to that being your goal, dammit! Deportation, of course, would be ideal, then slave labor, then our prison system, and then execution, if no alternative exists. Ideally, if prisoners are unable to support themselves through labor, a citizen would pay the government to keep the prisoner alive. Otherwise, they should either starve to death or be executed in a cost-effective, or at least amusing, manner.

"... pacifism [is] a dilemma. If everybody was a pacifist then everything would be perfect. But nobody is going to be a pacifist unless I am first. But if I am and somebody else is not, then I get screwed. He said that there were five choices under that circumstance. The first was napalming farmers and the second was executing your parents. The third was hypocrisy, the fourth was cowardice, and the fifth was to swallow the dilemma. Zenarchists are trained in dilemma swallowing. "

You seem to skip over the deterrence factor, at least on the individual basis.

Kludge
12-13-2009, 10:04 AM
You seem to skip over the deterrence factor, at least on the individual basis.

That's true, and likely very significant, but I don't see how its effect could be measured in a meaningful way. If people are not aggressing, out of fear of Justice, they'll probably just find more sneaky ways of doing it.

AutonomousLiberty
12-13-2009, 10:19 AM
a person who doesn't defend their rights against those who would forcefully take them eventually will have no rights. ie a slave.
The only rights a pacifist has are those that have yet been taken from him by force.
Enjoy your prison. Please don't resist.

I am not a pacifist, so this does not apply to me.

I'm not sure how this applies to the article either, if that was the intent behind this comment. If not, feel to ignore this statement. :)

torchbearer
12-13-2009, 10:21 AM
I am not a pacifist, so this does not apply to me. I'm not sure how this applies to the article either, if that was the intention of the comment.

it was the pacifist who would state that the initiation of violence is always wrong.
I stated why this position is incorrect.
It counters the argument before it begins.

constituent
12-13-2009, 10:23 AM
it was the pacifist who would state that the initiation of violence is always wrong.


This word "initiation" seems to be tripping up your logic.

torchbearer
12-13-2009, 10:29 AM
This word "initiation" seems to be tripping up your logic.


A cop comes to imprison you for smoking a joint.
If you use force to keep him from imprisoning you- who initiated force?
Some may say, you started the violence, not the cop.

Initiation of force is debatable in that scenario.
Though- I suggest, the cop initiated the force.

constituent
12-13-2009, 10:30 AM
A cop comes to imprison you for smoking a joint.
If you use force to keep him from imprisoning you- who initiated force?
Some may say, you started the violence, not the cop.



"Some say..."

You know I ain't buyin' that line... ;) :)

If a cop comes to imprison me for smoking a joint, then as you well know, it is the cop who initiated the violence.

torchbearer
12-13-2009, 10:33 AM
"Some say..."

You know I ain't buyin' that line... ;) :)

If a cop comes to imprison me for smoking a joint, then as you well know, it is the cop who initiated the violence.

I could swear I had a similar conversation with kludge, who believed that to retaliate is an "initiation" of force in response to an initiation of force.

we agree on the principles. I've seen how others view this argument. That is why i tried to head them off.
those people who take NAP to the absurd extreme.

ClayTrainor
12-13-2009, 10:57 AM
I could swear I had a similar conversation with kludge, who believed that to retaliate is an "initiation" of force in response to an initiation of force.

Constituent isn't saying anything close to that.



I've seen how others view this argument. That is why i tried to head them off.

Do you think NAP is subjective?



those people who take NAP to the absurd extreme.

Pacifism is not NAP.

The cop is the initiator of aggression, no matter who says what, in the pot example. It could be argued that the employer of the cop is the initiator, since his salary is funded by theft.

torchbearer
12-13-2009, 11:00 AM
Constituent isn't saying anything close to that.



How so? What is your argument?


Pacifism is not NAP.

The cop is the initiator of aggression, no matter who says what, in the pot example. Do you think NAP is subjective?

I didn't say constituent say anything close to that- i was talking about a previous conversation with kludge.
you'd have to ask kludge to defend his pacifist position that he finds to be the "true" NAP.

ClayTrainor
12-13-2009, 11:01 AM
I didn't say constituent say anything close to that- i was talking about a previous conversation with kludge.
you'd have to ask kludge to defend his pacifist position that he finds to be the "true" NAP.

Alright, i may have been misreading you, or taking something out of context, not sure.

My apologies.

tremendoustie
12-13-2009, 03:08 PM
A cop comes to imprison you for smoking a joint.
If you use force to keep him from imprisoning you- who initiated force?
Some may say, you started the violence, not the cop.

Initiation of force is debatable in that scenario.
Though- I suggest, the cop initiated the force.

I would agree, the cop initiated the force -- although of course I would not recommend this behavior.

Of course, as you know, opposition to initiating force is not opposition to forceful defense. A justice system organized to stop real criminals who are harming others does not contradict the NAP.

Kludge
12-13-2009, 04:07 PM
A cop comes to imprison you for smoking a joint.
If you use force to keep him from imprisoning you- who initiated force?
Some may say, you started the violence, not the cop.

Initiation of force is debatable in that scenario.
Though- I suggest, the cop initiated the force.

(sorry for the apparently confusing delay)

Both initiated aggression. "Reaction" is used misleadingly as it implies the new action is fated to happen. Retaliatory aggression isn't like a chemical reaction. If someone hits you, you aren't fated to hit them back: it's a new initiation of aggression. If more aggression against you isn't imminent, it isn't self-defense. In the case you describe, though, I'd say it is not... uh.... I don't really have the words to describe it, honestly -- all I can come up with is "immoral," but I don't believe in morality, nor can I use "disrespectful" since it obviously is, nor "un-blamable" since it seems kind of dumb to resist an enforcer of unending justice.

Okay..... Let's try this bullshit -- I don't think it would be necessarily unwise of a person to resist one who is reasonably perceived as going to commit imminent aggression. So, my judgment is this: while the smoker in this case is likely acting outside their true* rational self-interest, it is not because they are resisting, but because of other conditions.

Yeah -- I like that.

*by my own imperfect judgment

idiom
12-13-2009, 04:37 PM
In short, the present-day boundaries of nations are purely historical and arbitrary, and there is no more need for a monopoly government over the citizens of one country than there is for one between the citizens of two different nations.

Says someone who has never lived on a small Island. 2000 km of open ocean is a pretty good defining boundary.

And if you try to visit New Zealand, we will initiate force on your person. Not in searching for drugs, but any fruit or organic substances. New Zealand is under a permanent biological quarantine. There are strong economic reasons to maintain it as a lot of crops can be grown here without all the pesticides used elsewhere in the world.

Why should a private individual be able to ruin that for everybody forever?

Should you really be free to contaminate an entire region?

tremendoustie
12-13-2009, 04:42 PM
(sorry for the apparently confusing delay)

Both initiated aggression. "Reaction" is used misleadingly as it implies the new action is fated to happen. Retaliatory aggression isn't like a chemical reaction. If someone hits you, you aren't fated to hit them back: it's a new initiation of aggression. If more aggression against you isn't imminent, it isn't self-defense. In the case you describe, though, I'd say it is not... uh.... I don't really have the words to describe it, honestly -- all I can come up with is "immoral," but I don't believe in morality, nor can I use "disrespectful" since it obviously is, nor "un-blamable" since it seems kind of dumb to resist an enforcer of unending justice.

Okay..... Let's try this bullshit -- I don't think it would be necessarily unwise of a person to resist one who is reasonably perceived as going to commit imminent aggression. So, my judgment is this: while the smoker in this case is likely acting outside their true* rational self-interest, it is not because they are resisting, but because of other conditions.

Yeah -- I like that.

*by my own imperfect judgment

I'm going to go with this: the smoker has a right to resist in this circumstance, but it is not in his best interests, or the best interests of liberty, because of the inevitable result which will occur.

I also would not do it because I'd rather pay a fine than kill someone, and because I know the cop does not fully understand the evil that he's doing.

Met Income
12-16-2009, 11:19 AM
Says someone who has never lived on a small Island. 2000 km of open ocean is a pretty good defining boundary.

And if you try to visit New Zealand, we will initiate force on your person. Not in searching for drugs, but any fruit or organic substances. New Zealand is under a permanent biological quarantine. There are strong economic reasons to maintain it as a lot of crops can be grown here without all the pesticides used elsewhere in the world.

Why should a private individual be able to ruin that for everybody forever?

Should you really be free to contaminate an entire region?

Property should be private -- then, property owners can search you if they want.

paulpwns
12-16-2009, 11:24 AM
And you guys wonder why the FEDS watch us.

lol

tremendoustie
12-16-2009, 11:51 AM
And you guys wonder why the FEDS watch us.

lol


I have no doubt they watch us, but I'm one of the least violent guys you'll ever meet. I'm very, very close to a pacifist. I'd only use violence in very extreme circumstances, perhaps to defend against an attempt on my or my wife's life.

Peaceful activism, and civil disobedience is my response to tyranny.

paulpwns
12-16-2009, 12:13 PM
I have no doubt they watch us, but I'm one of the least violent guys you'll ever meet. I'm very, very close to a pacifist. I'd only use violence in very extreme circumstances, perhaps to defend against an attempt on my or my wife's life.

Peaceful activism, and civil disobedience is my response to tyranny.

Same.

TortoiseDream
12-20-2009, 04:09 AM
Same.

Same2.