Gary Johnson and Ron Paul are not opponents

[AbolishTheGovt]

There's been some excitement building up around here over the past few months with talk of drafting the two libertarian champions Rep. Ron Paul and Gov. Gary Johnson into the 2012 presidential race. For some reason, however, some of the people who really like the idea of getting Ron Paul to run a second time feel the need to savage Gary Johnson (some people are even spreading outright false information about him--like that he's come out in opposition to abolishing the income tax, which he has NOT done), and some of the people who really like the idea of getting Gary Johnson to run next time around feel the need to savage Ron Paul as well.

This is totally unnecessary and counterproductive.

Let's get a few things straight:

A). Gary Johnson and Ron Paul are the two most honorable and liberty-minded statesmen, arguably, of the past century. Either of them would make terrific Presidents.
B). Gary and Ron are personal friends, they are on the same page, and they are never going to run against each other. If both of them become candidates in 2012, one of them will drop out before the primaries begin and will undoubtedly throw their support behind the other. We will never have to walk into a voting booth and choose BETWEEN Ron Paul and Gary Johnson.
C). Gary and Ron each have their own strengths and weaknesses. Ron Paul has more name recognition than Gary Johnson. Gary Johnson is younger and more energetic than Ron Paul. Ron Paul is wiser and has a deeper grasp of issues than Gary Johnson. Gary Johnson has executive experience as a Governor of a state. Both hardcore Johnson supporters and hardcore Paul supporters ought to be honest about the weaknesses of their own candidate and the strengths of the other.
D). Neither Gary Johnson nor Ron Paul can win without the other's support. By the time 2012 rolls around, both Gary and Ron will be political forces to reckon with, and they will need each other's help.
E). There are VERY FEW differences between Ron Paul and Gary Johnson. Both have said they want to balance the federal budget, end the Federal Reserve, end the War on Drugs, end the War On Terror, end the health care takeover, drastically cut taxes, overturn Roe V Wade, preserve gun rights, and shrink the size of the federal government.
F). It's pointless to argue over which candidate is better at this point. To each his own. Let people push Ron Paul or Gary Johnson for 2012. When the time comes, there will only be one candidate on the ballot and we will all vote for whoever it is. At the end of the day, if Gary is not on the ballot, all the Gary Johnson supporters will vote for Ron Paul, and I'm sure vice versa is true.

So, I would ask Gary Johnson supporters: When people talk about the idea of drafting Ron Paul for 2012, do not disparage them. Don't criticise Ron Paul or say he's too old or doesn't have enough executive experience or whatnot. Those words may come back to bite us if Gary decides not to run and Ron Paul is our man in 2012.

And I would ask Ron Paul supporters: When people talk about the idea of drafting Gary Johnson for 2012, do not disparage them. Don't criticise Gary Johnson or say he's too low-profile or too immoral because he had one divorce or whatnot. Those words may come to bite us if Ron decides not to run and Gary Johnson is our man in 2012.

[johnrocks]

I really like Gary Johnson, I'll admit that *if* RP runs again, I'd vote for him in a second but I really like Gary Johnson, I hope he runs, we need a young,energetic voice in our movement, we need to be about the ideology, not any one person.

We have enough people to fight, no need in fighting each other.

[Matthew Zak]

Great post. This sucker ought to be a sticky.

[LibertyEagle]

Good thread. It needed to be said. :)

[klamath]

Generally I agree with your post. I have never had a problem when people talk about GJ or post news about GJ but I come unglued when GJ people put down RP and promote GJ on these forums. Sometimes it is in a single current thread or a series of supporting threads. I respect the rights of the GJ forums to talk about and promote GJ over RP but it is all kinds of arrogent and disrespectful to come on the RP forums and put down RP while advancing GJ. These are the kind of actions that will spark a bitter battle.
In all fairness we do have people on here that like RP but their second choices are Palin, Demint, Ventura, Huckabee, Kucinich, etc. Is it wrong to attack their second choices?

[AbolishTheGovt]

Generally I agree with your post. I have never had a problem when people talk about GJ or post news about GJ but I come unglued when GJ people put down RP and promote GJ on these forums. Sometimes it is in a single current thread or a series of supporting threads. I respect the rights of the GJ forums to talk about and promote GJ over RP but it is all kinds of arrogent and disrespectful to come on the RP forums and put down RP while advancing GJ. These are the kind of actions that will spark a bitter battle.

I am in 100% agreement with you. We Gary Johnson supporters (and I don't even like using that phrase because I'm also a Ron Paul supporter, and I campaigned my heart out for Ron Paul during 2007-2008, and I will campaign my heart out for him again if he is our candidate in 2012) should not come on here and disrespect Ron Paul at all.


In all fairness we do have people on here that like RP but their second choices are Palin, Demint, Ventura, Huckabee, Kucinich, etc. Is it wrong to attack their second choices?

It's not "wrong" to criticise other candidates, it's just very counterproductive.

[RevolutionSD]

There's been some excitement building up around here over the past few months with talk of drafting the two libertarian champions Rep. Ron Paul and Gov. Gary Johnson into the 2012 presidential race. For some reason, however, some of the people who really like the idea of getting Ron Paul to run a second time feel the need to savage Gary Johnson (some people are even spreading outright false information about him--like that he's come out in opposition to abolishing the income tax, which he has NOT done), and some of the people who really like the idea of getting Gary Johnson to run next time around feel the need to savage Ron Paul as well.

This is totally unnecessary and counterproductive.

Let's get a few things straight:

A). Gary Johnson and Ron Paul are the two most honorable and liberty-minded statesmen, arguably, of the past century. Either of them would make terrific Presidents.
B). Gary and Ron are personal friends, they are on the same page, and they are never going to run against each other. If both of them become candidates in 2012, one of them will drop out before the primaries begin and will undoubtedly throw their support behind the other. We will never have to walk into a voting booth and choose BETWEEN Ron Paul and Gary Johnson.
C). Gary and Ron each have their own strengths and weaknesses. Ron Paul has more name recognition than Gary Johnson. Gary Johnson is younger and more energetic than Ron Paul. Ron Paul is wiser and has a deeper grasp of issues than Gary Johnson. Gary Johnson has executive experience as a Governor of a state. Both hardcore Johnson supporters and hardcore Paul supporters ought to be honest about the weaknesses of their own candidate and the strengths of the other.
D). Neither Gary Johnson nor Ron Paul can win without the other's support. By the time 2012 rolls around, both Gary and Ron will be political forces to reckon with, and they will need each other's help.
E). There are VERY FEW differences between Ron Paul and Gary Johnson. Both have said they want to balance the federal budget, end the Federal Reserve, end the War on Drugs, end the War On Terror, end the health care takeover, drastically cut taxes, overturn Roe V Wade, preserve gun rights, and shrink the size of the federal government.
F). It's pointless to argue over which candidate is better at this point. To each his own. Let people push Ron Paul or Gary Johnson for 2012. When the time comes, there will only be one candidate on the ballot and we will all vote for whoever it is. At the end of the day, if Gary is not on the ballot, all the Gary Johnson supporters will vote for Ron Paul, and I'm sure vice versa is true.

So, I would ask Gary Johnson supporters: When people talk about the idea of drafting Ron Paul for 2012, do not disparage them. Don't criticise Ron Paul or say he's too old or doesn't have enough executive experience or whatnot. Those words may come back to bite us if Gary decides not to run and Ron Paul is our man in 2012.

And I would ask Ron Paul supporters: When people talk about the idea of drafting Gary Johnson for 2012, do not disparage them. Don't criticise Gary Johnson or say he's too low-profile or too immoral because he had one divorce or whatnot. Those words may come to bite us if Ron decides not to run and Gary Johnson is our man in 2012.

"drastically cut taxes"

I disagree.
RP says he wants to END the income tax (libertarian idea), while GJ just wants to "cut taxes" (GOP idea). HUGE difference.

[AbolishTheGovt]

"drastically cut taxes"

I disagree.
RP says he wants to END the income tax (libertarian idea), while GJ just wants to "cut taxes" (GOP idea). HUGE difference.

This is part of what I'm talking about. Gary Johnson has not said one way or the other whether he would support abolishing the income tax. I don't think anyone has ever asked him that question in an interview. Until Gary Johnson gets asked that question and is able to give his own answer from his own mouth, PLEASE stop putting words in his mouth and assigning him positions on issues that he hasn't even addressed yet.

[MR2Fast2Catch]

Good post. I agree with your thoughts.


In all fairness we do have people on here that like RP but their second choices are Palin, Demint, Ventura, Huckabee, Kucinich, etc. Is it wrong to attack their second choices?

I think most Ron Paul supporters agree that all of those second choices you listed are not worthy of our support because they do not question the status quo like Ron Paul does (I guess I have to give Ventura some credit, and there are some Ventura fans on here).

I don't support lesser evils. Ron Paul or Gary Johnson are both great options. All of those names you listed as second choices are lesser evils. Perhaps Ventura is not a lesser evil on as many issues, but he still a par below Paul and Johnson.

So it is not wrong to attack their second choices, IMO.

[RevolutionSD]

This is part of what I'm talking about. Gary Johnson has not said one way or the other whether he would support abolishing the income tax. I don't think anyone has ever asked him that question in an interview. Until Gary Johnson gets asked that question and is able to give his own answer from his own mouth, PLEASE stop putting words in his mouth and assigning him positions on issues that he hasn't even addressed yet.

Well if he's a libertarian he needs to be shouting it from the rooftops like RP was in the primaries, not simply saying he wants to cut taxes like what every other politician says.

[klamath]

Good post. I agree with your thoughts.



I think most Ron Paul supporters agree that all of those second choices you listed are not worthy of our support because they do not question the status quo like Ron Paul does (I guess I have to give Ventura some credit, and there are some Ventura fans on here).

I don't support lesser evils. Ron Paul or Gary Johnson are both great options. All of those names you listed as second choices are lesser evils. Perhaps Ventura is not a lesser evil on as many issues, but he still a par below Paul and Johnson.

So it is not wrong to attack their second choices, IMO.

As you stated, "IMO". We do have a number of people on here that do not agree with you that GJ and not Palin, is the second RP. A lot of people have their own opinions on who should replace RP should he not run.

[AbolishTheGovt]

As you stated, "IMO". We do have a number of people on here that do not agree with you that GJ and not Palin, is the second RP. A lot of people have their own opinions on who should replace RP should he not run.

Once again, I agree with you 100%, and my post here can apply as much toward Sarah Palin as toward Ron Paul and Gary Johnson.

We are wasting our time when some of us attack candidates like Sarah Palin as well. There are plenty of people attacking Sarah Palin already. We don't need to pile on. Let's let all the negative candidates go shred each other apart, and let's keep the liberty movement solely positive. The liberty movement can learn a lesson from the old saying "If you don't have anything nice to say about someone, don't say anything at all." If you don't like Sarah Palin, then don't trouble yourself attacking her--she'll be attacked by other candidates. If you don't like Gary Johnson, then don't trouble yourself attacking him--he'll be attacked by other candidates. Let the other candidates do the dirty work. We can afford to keep it positive.

[AbolishTheGovt]

Well if he's a libertarian he needs to be shouting it from the rooftops like RP was in the primaries, not simply saying he wants to cut taxes like what every other politician says.

Okay, this is a legitimate point. It's one thing to point out that Gary Johnson hasn't been vocal at all on whether he'd like to see the income tax abolished, but it's another thing to say that Gary Johnson doesn't want to see the income tax abolished when he hasn't actually said that.

We ought to take a lesson from Ron Paul here. I remember during the 2008 presidential debates, one of Ron Paul's best moments was when the Republican candidates were asked whether they think the late Ronald Reagan would support their candidacy. All the other candidates were going on and on about how Ronald Reagan would have supported them, of course, but when the moderator got to Ron Paul, he was the only candidate to simply and honestly admit that he didn't know whether Ronald Reagan would have supported him, but that what was important were the issues here and now. Ron Paul got really high marks for that response in focus groups and among Republicans watching that debate, because people appreciate that kind of candor. Likewise, we should have the integrity to admit when we don't know something for sure and to not put words in other people's mouths. We will be more respected when we have the courage and honesty to simply say "I don't know, yet" sometimes.

But, even if Gary Johnson were to come out and say that he didn't support abolishing the income tax, would you really withhold your vote from him, just because he only supports cutting taxes, balancing the budget, ending the Fed, ending the Drug War, bringing the troops home, repealing Roe v Wade, preserving gun rights, etc.? For instance, I don't think that Ron Paul's belief in a wall across the Mexican border manned by standing armed troops is very libertarian or constitutional, but I wholeheartedly campaigned for and voted for Ron Paul nonetheless. It's okay to compromise a little bit, as long as you keep things in perspective.

[AbolishTheGovt]

Bump.

[nayjevin]

Let's let all the negative candidates go shred each other apart, and let's keep the liberty movement solely positive. The liberty movement can learn a lesson from the old saying "If you don't have anything nice to say about someone, don't say anything at all."

Thank you for this, I know I'm guilty of it at times.

[moonshineplease]

I have to admit I never knew anything about GJ before. The fact that he maintained such a consistent principled record as Governor should bring him a lot of credibility. If he runs he will have my support.

[nbhadja]

I disagree with keeping it soley positive.

Remember that a large percent of the country actually believes the BS lies that Palin and the rest of the Republicans support small government and that Obama and the rest of the Democrats are anti-war.

We all know that both the Republicans and Democrats support big government and big war.

When the Republicans attack Obama, they attack him for being "weak" and paint him as anti war despite the fact that he is pro war. When the Democrats attack Palin, they paint her as a free market capitalist despite the fact she is really a big government liberal.

Both of them attacking each other does nothing to help us! Their lies only perpetuate the illusion of free choice- the very thing we are trying to destroy to let the people see that they are not free.

We must spread the word that Palin is really a big government liberal, Obama is really pro war, and that Obama and Palin (and both parties) are both the same in every major category because we know that the media, GOP, and the Democratic party will never mention it.