Help me refute this argument against unions

[Met Income]

An employer will continue to hire employees as long as there is work that generates profit. As long as an employee costs less than the profit the employee generates, it is still a net gain to hire more employees. Profiting from another person's labor is a form of exploitation; labor unions help leverage many laborers against the power of the employer and reduce the profit margin. No successful labor union eliminates an employer's profit; they only fight for a larger share of the profit for its members.

Thanks!

[Deborah K]

The problem, as I see it, with unions is that they operate the same way socialism does.
http://www.thomasbrewton.com/index.php/labor_unions_socialisms_shock_troops/

[__27__]

Thanks!

Without the employer those laborers have no job at which to profit from their own labor. It is a symbiotic relationship.

A computer processor may be the coolest new gadget in the world, but without a computer to put it in, it is nothing but an expensive piece of plastic and metal that does nothing.



EDIT: I should clarify. Profit is the only incentive for any employer to operate at all. By reducing the profit as suggested, you do two things: 1. Reduce the incentive for investors to allow use of their capital, or for entrepreneurs to invest their time and energy into building the company with which to employ, which leads to smaller competition in the market, which leads to higher prices, which leads to lower demand, which leads to less jobs for the employees; and 2. A business operates on a budget, by 'reducing the profit margin' either item 1 will occur, or the employer would simply reduce his number of employees while paying them each more, thus a net loss in employees.

Either way, the result of the thinking posed is LESS jobs. Wage controls will ALWAYS lead to less jobs.

[RCA]

The answers are in Economics in One Lesson. By forcing wages higher than the market rate, unions push the company closer towards insolvency resulting in a depreciation of wealth for everyone over time. This is exactly what happened to General Motors.

[Krugerrand]

Profiting from another person's labor is a form of exploitation; labor unions help leverage many laborers against the power of the employer and reduce the profit margin.

1. Labor unions are then big time exploiters - since they are funded exclusively by other people's labor.

2. Employees are exploiters of their employers: they can cash a paycheck because somebody else put down a capital investment and took a risk in establishing a business, buying materials, marketing the materials and establishing a customer base. Take for example a Ford Tire-Put-er-On-er. They earn an income (profit) by providing a service. They exploit the owner and the co-worker (by the above definition) They profit from the labors of the Car-Painter, Parts-Builder, Parts-Buyer, Engine-Put-er-In-er, and Telephone-Answerer. The services of a Tire-Put-er-On-er at a Jiffy Lube quick oil change get paid much less. Why - they don't have those other people's labors to exploit.

3. Yes - unions reduce the profit margin. That means the company has less resources to hire more or better employees.

The funny part of all this is that even union workers cry when their retirement investments tank. ... and what are their retirement investments - part ownership of companies.

[Icymudpuppy]

The biggest problem I see with Unions is that it takes the power to promote, raise, fire, or punish individual employees for their work. Thus, the best union worker is paid the same as the worst union worker, even though the employer wants to pay the best worker more.

[CountryboyRonPaul]

Voluntary organization between workers is a tool of the free market, the way I see it.

The problem comes in when they are able to buy special legislative favors and laws that coerce industry into doing something against their will.





There is no problem with workers organizing in order to tell their boss they won't settle for less than $10/hr.

There is a problem with workers organizing to coax lawmakers into telling an industry that they are required by law to pay $10/hr to anyone who is willing to work for less.

[Elwar]

Voluntary organization between workers is a tool of the free market, the way I see it.

The problem comes in when they are able to buy special legislative favors and laws that coerce industry into doing something against their will.





There is no problem with workers organizing in order to tell their boss they won't settle for less than $10/hr.

There is a problem with workers organizing to coax lawmakers into telling an industry that they are required by law to pay $10/hr to anyone who is willing to work for less.

+1

I'm all for unions right to organize.

I'm all for employers to fire anyone.

[Stary Hickory]

It's already been stated. Working is a voluntary act. No one is being exploited it's a mutually beneficial trade. The employer gives employees a widely tradeable good(money) in exchange for their labor.

The employees exchange their labor for goods and services that they feel are worthy of the exchange. This is all voluntary and moral.

However when unions seek government coercive force or engage in the use of force, they are the ones doing the exploiting. In this case they have abandoned voluntary and mutual trade and have instead started using violence to obtain goods and services no one is willing to trade them otherwise.

This is why most unions are immoral and ought to be illegal. There is nothing wrong with employees banding together and threatening to quit if they are not give X amount of money, but when they go to government in order to obtain force or violence to further their own ends they become nothing more than thugs.

[brandon]

The answers are in Economics in One Lesson.

This.


Read. (http://jim.com/econ/)

[brandon]

Do Unions Really Raise Wages? (http://jim.com/econ/chap20p1.html)

[Dunedain]

Labor unions are a handicap on employers rendering them unable to compete against non-union competitors. Employers who can't compete lose market share and being downsiding. Counter-intuitively, labor unions CAUSE job loss. The stronger the union, the stronger the handicap and subsequent job loss. GM, Chrysler and Ford are great examples.

[Dunedain]

Do Unions Really Raise Wages? (http://jim.com/econ/chap20p1.html)

They raise wages in the short term and eliminate jobs in the long term.

[Met Income]

Wrong, Japanese Automaker (and Korean) are just as heavily unionized as US automakers (speaking globally). Foreign plants in the United States have comparable wages and conditions (union threat effect). The Job Bank the right wing complained about the US auto unions having (where idled employees were supposedly paid not to work) guess what...Toyota US plants, which are non-union, have the same program.

The competitive advantage foreign automakers have revolves around their home countries actually having an industrial policy that backs and supports them. Additionally the home countries cover the costs of healthcare and pension for the automakers


Is this really how you guys think the world operates? Sure this is business and econ 101 but these general postulates are only meant for general theorizing and providing the starting basis for deeper analysis. As the communists found out and I thought we did after the recent economic crises, the world doesn't always conform to theory.


I pray you are guys are business owners because nothing kills me more than a worker who makes excuses for and agrees with the philosophy of the business class.


Do you oppose companies that use coercion, force and other illegal tactics to deny workers their right to join a union?

I am in Brazil right now meeting with trade unions. The Brazilian government as a matter of policy works with trade unions allowing them to negotiate base contracts across the board for entire industries. Last I checked Brazil was one of the fastest growing economies in the world.

I wonder how Germany continues to rank as one of the worlds most powerful economies despite having such a high unionization rate and strong labor laws which mandate employee works councils and other regulations that a U.S. worker could only dream about.

[Deborah K]

.

I wonder how Germany continues to rank as one of the worlds most powerful economies despite having such a high unionization rate and strong labor laws which mandate employee works councils and other regulations that a U.S. worker could only dream about.

China's economy is doing really well too.....but I wouldn't want to work in any of their factories.....

[ClayTrainor]

Wrong, Japanese Automaker (and Korean) are just as heavily unionized as US automakers (speaking globally). Foreign plants in the United States have comparable wages and conditions (union threat effect). The Job Bank the right wing complained about the US auto unions having (where idled employees were supposedly paid not to work) guess what...Toyota US plants, which are non-union, have the same program.

The competitive advantage foreign automakers have revolves around their home countries actually having an industrial policy that backs and supports them. Additionally the home countries cover the costs of healthcare and pension for the automakers


Is this really how you guys think the world operates? Sure this is business and econ 101 but these general postulates are only meant for general theorizing and providing the starting basis for deeper analysis. As the communists found out and I thought we did after the recent economic crises, the world doesn't always conform to theory.


I pray you are guys are business owners because nothing kills me more than a worker who makes excuses for and agrees with the philosophy of the business class.


Do you oppose companies that use coercion, force and other illegal tactics to deny workers their right to join a union?

I am in Brazil right now meeting with trade unions. The Brazilian government as a matter of policy works with trade unions allowing them to negotiate base contracts across the board for entire industries. Last I checked Brazil was one of the fastest growing economies in the world.

I wonder how Germany continues to rank as one of the worlds most powerful economies despite having such a high unionization rate and strong labor laws which mandate employee works councils and other regulations that a U.S. worker could only dream about.

I don't think you're entirely wrong about everything you're saying here but, there's an awful lot of economic fallacies and assumptions in this post, based on my understanding of the austrian theory. I'm quite busy right now, but if no one with a good sense of economics take this on tonight, i'll be back tomorrow night, to take a shot at it. :)

[MN Patriot]

My problem with unions are their socialist/communist rhetoric and ideology. They are killing the hand that feeds them.

If unions recognized that capitalism works better than socialism, then maybe they would be more realistic and represent their members better.

Here is a provocative idea: if corporations are given advantages by government to shield their owners from liability, then maybe the corporations should be required to have their members unionized. Corporations aren't the only business model we have.

I'm a share the wealth kind of guy, but it should be shared in a free market environment where competition allows new businesses to enter profitable fields. Entrepreneurship, not government bureaucracy.

[silverhandorder]

Wrong, Japanese Automaker (and Korean) are just as heavily unionized as US automakers (speaking globally). Foreign plants in the United States have comparable wages and conditions (union threat effect). The Job Bank the right wing complained about the US auto unions having (where idled employees were supposedly paid not to work) guess what...Toyota US plants, which are non-union, have the same program.

The competitive advantage foreign automakers have revolves around their home countries actually having an industrial policy that backs and supports them. Additionally the home countries cover the costs of healthcare and pension for the automakers


Is this really how you guys think the world operates? Sure this is business and econ 101 but these general postulates are only meant for general theorizing and providing the starting basis for deeper analysis. As the communists found out and I thought we did after the recent economic crises, the world doesn't always conform to theory.


I pray you are guys are business owners because nothing kills me more than a worker who makes excuses for and agrees with the philosophy of the business class.


Do you oppose companies that use coercion, force and other illegal tactics to deny workers their right to join a union?

I am in Brazil right now meeting with trade unions. The Brazilian government as a matter of policy works with trade unions allowing them to negotiate base contracts across the board for entire industries. Last I checked Brazil was one of the fastest growing economies in the world.

I wonder how Germany continues to rank as one of the worlds most powerful economies despite having such a high unionization rate and strong labor laws which mandate employee works councils and other regulations that a U.S. worker could only dream about.

What you meant to say was the German government subsidizes their industry. It is a net loss for German people even though that makes German automakers more competitive.

If you can't see that how can you see that overpriced labor makes the private company grow at a slower pace?

[LibertyMage]

An employer will continue to hire employees as long as there is work that generates profit. As long as an employee costs less than the profit the employee generates, it is still a net gain to hire more employees. Profiting from another person's labor is a form of exploitation; labor unions help leverage many laborers against the power of the employer and reduce the profit margin. No successful labor union eliminates an employer's profit; they only fight for a larger share of the profit for its members.

1. The employer/employee relationship is not exploitation. It is a mutually beneficial agreement. Otherwise both parties would not willfully engage in it.

2. Labor unions form monopolies on labor. If you want labor, you have to go to the union.

3. Of course labor unions eliminate profit. Look at GM. They are selling cars at a $4000 loss per car this year and they are still in business because of the bailouts. This has the added benefits of making goods more expensive.

And read Economics in One Lesson.

[Thrashertm]

Thanks!

What specifically are you trying to refute? Where is the argument against unions in here? To me your statement seems entirely reasonable.

- Ah, I see now that you posted the answer to your question.

[brandon]

snip

I'm lost.

You ask us to help refute an argument against unions. You then provide us with an argument for unions. And then when people respond you argue for unions. :confused:

[awake]

If union employees achieve their goal of confiscating all profits and directing those profits into their wages, investment stops, soon they find that their equipment can no longer be enhanced let alone replaced and their company starts to operate at a loss due to capital depreciation. The loss widens as the capital equipment deteriorates with out replacement and repair. Soon the loss becomes too great to surmount and the company goes bust or marches to the government for bailouts and subsides.

Inflation and taxation has this effect over time as well, but is heavily shrouded in nonsense and propaganda to the opposite.

[Met Income]

I'm lost.

You ask us to help refute an argument against unions. You then provide us with an argument for unions. And then when people respond you argue for unions. :confused:

I was copying and pasting his answers as my own.

[silverhandorder]

/calls off the dogs of war

All better now :D.

[LibertyMage]

Wrong, Japanese Automaker (and Korean) are just as heavily unionized as US automakers (speaking globally). Foreign plants in the United States have comparable wages and conditions (union threat effect). The Job Bank the right wing complained about the US auto unions having (where idled employees were supposedly paid not to work) guess what...Toyota US plants, which are non-union, have the same program.

The competitive advantage foreign automakers have revolves around their home countries actually having an industrial policy that backs and supports them. Additionally the home countries cover the costs of healthcare and pension for the automakers


Is this really how you guys think the world operates? Sure this is business and econ 101 but these general postulates are only meant for general theorizing and providing the starting basis for deeper analysis. As the communists found out and I thought we did after the recent economic crises, the world doesn't always conform to theory.


I pray you are guys are business owners because nothing kills me more than a worker who makes excuses for and agrees with the philosophy of the business class.


Do you oppose companies that use coercion, force and other illegal tactics to deny workers their right to join a union?

I am in Brazil right now meeting with trade unions. The Brazilian government as a matter of policy works with trade unions allowing them to negotiate base contracts across the board for entire industries. Last I checked Brazil was one of the fastest growing economies in the world.

I wonder how Germany continues to rank as one of the worlds most powerful economies despite having such a high unionization rate and strong labor laws which mandate employee works councils and other regulations that a U.S. worker could only dream about.

Wow, I just found this turd.

The world conforms to theory when the theory is accurate. What the communists "found out" after millions of people starved to death after the 60 years of central planning is that the "theory" that central planning cannot provide for people is true. What we "found out" after the recent economic crises was that the Austrian business cycle theory is more true then the "theory" that unfettered markets cause the business cycle. The amount of credit flowing through the financial industry was not set by a fluctuating interest rate which balanced savings and lending - it was set by the Federal Reserve manipulating the interest rates.

Anyone who talks in social classes has a need to use them against one another. People without an agenda don't do this. Anyone who talks in non sequiturs creates their own logic, despite its lack of objectivity or truth. People with logical, factual arguments don't do this. The mind of whomever you are talking to has been propagandized to the point they believe lies.

[Met Income]

bump

[jmdrake]

Voluntary organization between workers is a tool of the free market, the way I see it.

The problem comes in when they are able to buy special legislative favors and laws that coerce industry into doing something against their will.





There is no problem with workers organizing in order to tell their boss they won't settle for less than $10/hr.

There is a problem with workers organizing to coax lawmakers into telling an industry that they are required by law to pay $10/hr to anyone who is willing to work for less.

Somebody understand the Ron Paul position!

http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=56

The government shouldn't interfere and "break strikes".

The government shouldn't interfere and force unionization.

[Ethek]

Somebody understand the Ron Paul position!

http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=56

The government shouldn't interfere and "break strikes".

The government shouldn't interfere and force unionization.

I sm very pro Union and the way I see it I could not be more pro liberty. I hate spamming my site since I just linked to it in another thread.. Its an idea I have been putting together of a 'liberty union' for barter and trade.

It would have a union Framework and an ISO type 9001 process for improvment and accrediation of liberty efforts. I think the barter aspect is the most crucial part. People who wnat to be free and who are productive can join together. A modern day Galts gultch which was a pretty union concept imho.

Those who own the tools of production can grant advantage to whose who are pro liberty and also liable to be productive. I just strated fleshing it out over the last week at http://gadsdenunion.ing.com Hopefully I will have a more freatured drupal site at gadsdenunion.com up and running as soon as I can teak a few more things.