Why Import Workers Now? By Patrick J. Buchanan

[bobbyw24]

At last week’s Job Summit, there was talk of a second stimulus package, of tax credits for small businesses that hire new workers, of an Infrastructure Bank to select national priority pubic works projects like the Hoover Dam and TVA of yesteryear.

But no one, it seems, advanced the one obvious idea that would have the most immediate and dramatic impact — a moratorium on all immigration into the United States.

Unemployment is at 10 percent, near the postwar high of 1983. Fifteen million Americans are out of work. Ten million more have given up looking or are working fewer hours than they would like.


We have been losing jobs every month for two years.

Why, then, are we still bringing immigrants into the United States at a rate of 125,000 a month to take jobs from fellow Americans and compete with our unemployed for the jobs that open up?

In the last year, 1.5 million new immigrants have come to take up residence and been issued work permits. Probably twice as many jobs have been taken by these folks as the 650,000 the Obamaites claim were saved or created by their $787 billion stimulus package. How do Democrats justify this?

How can they justify bringing in another 1.5 immigrants in 2010 and another 1.5 million in 2011, when 25 million Americans they are supposed to represent are unemployed or underemployed?

If Obama voters feel disillusioned do they not have valid reason?

As for illegal aliens, it is estimated that 8 million still hold jobs in the United States. Endlessly we are told that these hardworking folks are just doing jobs that Americans refuse to do.

But Middle American News has taken a look at the Census Bureau data. In almost all the occupations to which unskilled and semi-skilled illegal aliens gravitate, native-born Americans hold most of the jobs.

U.S. citizens account for well over half of all housekeepers, maids, taxi drivers and chauffeurs in the U.S., almost two-thirds of all the butchers, meat processors and ground maintenance and construction workers, and three-fourths of all porters, bellhops and janitors.

We are told that many if not most of these are “dead-end jobs” Americans do not want or will not take. Yet, how can that be true when American citizens are already doing most of these jobs?

As related here in October, USA Today found that, invariably, when U.S. authorities raid a plant site where hundreds of illegals are working, and send them packing, hundreds of Americans show up and apply for the jobs. Is this not as it should be, if we are looking out for our own people first? And isn’t that what a family does, or should do?

Why, then, is the Obama administration cutting back on jobsite raids and inspections? Why is the administration talking of moving in 2010 to legalize the status of the 12 million to 20 million illegal aliens in the United States?

Is putting illegal aliens on the path to citizenship a higher priority for this Obama crowd than opening up jobs for American workers?

Are the K Street lobbyists whose corporate bosses cannot get enough low-wage labor that powerful? Are the Hispanic lobbies like La Raza and MALDEF, with their charges of “nativist” and “xenophobe,” so intimidating the Democratic Party cannot stand up to them?

Two weeks ago, The Washington Post, focusing on unemployment among young African-American males, wrote, “Joblessness for 16- to 24-year-old black men has reached Great Depression proportions — 34.5 percent in October, more than three times the rate for the general U.S. population.”

More than one-third of all young black males are unemployed.

Which raises a question. Where is the Black Caucus?

Here are folks who favor preferential treatment for their black constituents over white Americans — i.e., affirmative action. But they go mute when it comes to immigrants coming and taking jobs and illegal aliens holding down 8 million of those jobs that could be going to the unemployed in their own community.

Nor is it only working-class Americans who are being shouldered aside by the annual flood tide of immigrants.

As Jerry Woodruff, editor of Middle American News, writes: “Immigrants are taking good, high-paying jobs from highly skilled Americans. The Census Bureau found that 34 percent of all software engineers … are immigrants. Yet, the Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers reports that 48,000 U.S. software engineers are unemployed.”

If Obama wants to take executive action to assist Americans out looking for work, he could take two strong and effective steps.

First, call on Congress to vote a moratorium on immigration until the unemployment rate falls below 6 percent. Second, instruct Homeland Security and the Justice Department to renew the raids and enforce the law against employers who are taking jobs from Americans by illegally hiring undocumented aliens.

If Obama did that, suddenly folks would sit up and say, as they did after Ronald Reagan busted the air controllers, “This man is serious.”

http://buchanan.org/blog/why-import-workers-now-3186

[james1906]

Buchanan makes a good point.

[erowe1]

It's none of the government's business.

[KenInMontiMN]

It is one of very few things that are directly at the center of the realm of Federal govt business.

[Dunedain]

It's pretty obvious that the government's push for 3rd world immigration levels have nothing to do with helping employers find workers.

[romacox]

You are absolutely correct KenInMonteMN: Article I section 8 of the Constitution does assign that duty to the Federal Government, and as you say, "One of the few."

Why? Few powers are more fundamental to sovereignty than the control over immigration and the vesting of citizenship in aliens (naturalization). read more at: http://www.heritage.org/research/governmentreform/wm926.cfm

On the Web there is a fun video game where one can play with immigration numbers to determine the consequences to many areas of living including environmental issues. The website is so busy that it is temporarily down, but here it is htt://www.numbersusa.com


P.S. Thanks Bobby for having the courage to open up discussion and information on this very important issue.

[Dunedain]

It is one of very few things that are directly at the center of the realm of Federal govt business.

And of course the things they are supposed to do, like protect the borders and control the flow of people in and out of the country...they don't do at all.

[HOLLYWOOD]

Buchanan is a Day Late and Dollar short... I brought this up years ago on RPF.


Undocumented Democrats and government dole buys votes by whichever party is in power. The State has sold all of us out decades ago.

Bill Gates, HP, all the large corporatists lobby the Fascit state for cheap slave labor rates even through this Depression. A matter of fact, there's becoming a growing public anger and revolt iwith Bill Gates/MS laying off more and more Americans and replacing them w/ VISA workers.

Yeah there's the propaganda PR in the anti-trust labor laws... but like so much else wrong with government, it's hardly ever investigated, especially with campaign donations

[nelsonwinters]

If you haven't already, take a few minutes to watch this excellent video on immigration made by the folks at NumbersUSA mentioned above:

Immigration by the Numbers
Immigration_by_the_Numbers.mov (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4094926727128068265)

[jclay2]

Of course, it is the government's business to regulate the flow of people into our country. However, I think I will disagree with good old pat on this one. One of my personal friends at school is from Macedonia. He is a double major and works harder than anyone I know. He is very smart and has a tremendous respect for freedom and the ability to work and improve ones situation. Personally, I would like to see as many people like my friend come to this country. I don't care if thats when unemployment is at an "official" 10% or not either. I think buchanan is not talking about the main problem when it comes to immigration. The fact of the matter is that there are many legal and illigal immigrants that suck the lifeblood out of our system. They draw on our societies benefits without helping support them. We need to eliminate these benefits immediately. The United States history has been built on immigrants working hard and improving their lives in the process. They never received freebies and were on an equal playing ground. Now that has been completely preverted and changed. Instead of helping the economy grow, many immigrants take many times more than what they put in. In the old days immigrants were vital to help grow the economy. People used to be like my friend from Macedonia, wanting a chance for opportunity.

Pat should also remember that the reason we have high unemployment is not directly caused by immigration, but rather a lack of the free market. If we were to cut taxes and spending by 80%, allow competition in money, and killing regulations there would be no doubt in my mind that we would be back at Full employment in no time. However since it is not the case, we should expect negative consequences like high unemployment and low economic growth.

[YumYum]

The more immigrants that Obama lets into this country, the more taxes the government will collect, such as the new health care bill. Also, it is in the Democrats best interest to let in all the immigrants they can, plus give legal status to all the illegals, because these people will forever vote Democrat. The Republican Party is finished. Let the Free Market do its job, Ese!!

[Dunedain]

If the typical immigrant was as law abiding and hardworking as your friend from Europe we probably wouldn't have a problem. The U.S. was built by a nation of, specifically, European immigrants and their decedents after all.

However, European's are discriminated against under our current immigration law. No, we like to import the illiterate masses from the 3rd world to dumb down the nation and create disunity (diversity) among the people. That way we are helpless against tyrants like most 3rd world nations are.


Of course, it is the government's business to regulate the flow of people into our country. However, I think I will disagree with good old pat on this one. One of my personal friends at school is from Macedonia. He is a double major and works harder than anyone I know. He is very smart and has a tremendous respect for freedom and the ability to work and improve ones situation. Personally, I would like to see as many people like my friend come to this country. I don't care if thats when unemployment is at an "official" 10% or not either. I think buchanan is not talking about the main problem when it comes to immigration. The fact of the matter is that there are many legal and illigal immigrants that suck the lifeblood out of our system. They draw on our societies benefits without helping support them. We need to eliminate these benefits immediately. The United States history has been built on immigrants working hard and improving their lives in the process. They never received freebies and were on an equal playing ground. Now that has been completely preverted and changed. Instead of helping the economy grow, many immigrants take many times more than what they put in. In the old days immigrants were vital to help grow the economy. People used to be like my friend from Macedonia, wanting a chance for opportunity.

Pat should also remember that the reason we have high unemployment is not directly caused by immigration, but rather a lack of the free market. If we were to cut taxes and spending by 80%, allow competition in money, and killing regulations there would be no doubt in my mind that we would be back at Full employment in no time. However since it is not the case, we should expect negative consequences like high unemployment and low economic growth.

[jclay2]

If the typical immigrant was as law abiding and hardworking as your friend from Europe we probably wouldn't have a problem. The U.S. was built by a nation of, specifically, European immigrants and their decedents after all.

However, European's are discriminated against under our current immigration law. No, we like to import the illiterate masses from the 3rd world to dumb down the nation and create disunity (diversity) among the people. That way we are helpless against tyrants like most 3rd world nations are.

Most of these 3rd world immigrants our benefiting off of our current system of freebies, no? If we were to remove the welfare incentives, would not most of these 3rd world immigrants be unable to compete at their current levels.?

[AuH20]

If the upper class doesn't have some poor sap to press their shirts, mow their lawns and clean their pools, they're pretty powerless? eh?:D

[erowe1]

If I want to hire someone and pay them to work for me, then no one but me has any business telling me whom I can and cannot hire. My money is my property to use in the purchase of the labor of my choice according to my own criteria and not the government's. If I own a house, it is my property and my right to have any guests there I want, or to rent out to anyone I want, regardless of where they were born without respect for anything anyone in government thinks. If I want to sell a piece of property to someone, then until I make that sale, that property is mine to keep or to sell to whomever I want on whatever terms we agree between ourselves without the government telling me whom I can't sell it to. And once I sell it to them it becomes theirs, and the government has no right to tell that buyer they cannot be on their own property no matter where they happen to have been born. If the Constitution says otherwise, then the Constitution is wrong.

[HOLLYWOOD]

let me through a wrench into this...

How are Americans to compete when secondary education is practically free in foreign western developed nations compared to the American secondary Educational financial bubble to debt enslave students in this country?

While we spend Trillions waring and bribing the planet, building the police state on our soil at the people's expense, all while the competitive educated labor force in this country drops a few notches on the IQ latter.

[erowe1]

let me through a wrench into this...

How are Americans to compete when secondary education is practically free in foreign western developed nations compared to the American secondary Educational financial bubble to debt enslave students in this country?

While we spend Trillions waring and bribing the planet, building the police state on our soil at the people's expense, all while the competitive educated labor force in this country drops a few notches on the IQ latter.

How competetive and intelligent I am is also not the government's business.

[YumYum]

let me through a wrench into this...

How are Americans to compete when secondary education is practically free in foreign western developed nations compared to the American secondary Educational financial bubble to debt enslave students in this country?

While we spend Trillions waring and bribing the planet, building the police state on our soil at the people's expense, all while the competitive educated labor force in this country drops a few notches on the IQ latter.

You are refering to places like Denmark, where they pay kids to go to college, right?

[YumYum]

If I want to hire someone and pay them to work for me, then no one but me has any business telling me whom I can and cannot hire. My money is my property to use in the purchase of the labor of my choice according to my own criteria and not the government's. If I own a house, it is my property and my right to have any guests there I want, or to rent out to anyone I want, regardless of where they were born without respect for anything anyone in government thinks. If I want to sell a piece of property to someone, then until I make that sale, that property is mine to keep or to sell to whomever I want on whatever terms we agree between ourselves without the government telling me whom I can't sell it to. And once I sell it to them it becomes theirs, and the government has no right to tell that buyer they cannot be on their own property no matter where they happen to have been born. If the Constitution says otherwise, then the Constitution is wrong.

Shouldn't people who live in this country have some sort of legal status?

[Dunedain]

Most of these 3rd world immigrants our benefiting off of our current system of freebies, no? If we were to remove the welfare incentives, would not most of these 3rd world immigrants be unable to compete at their current levels.?

I totally agree, we need to start by cutting off the flow of free benefits. That would stem the massive tide of freeloaders. However, the long arm of the federal government sees a strategic opportunity in allowing the freeloaders to enter the country and disrupt our entire society...and it is working out very well for them, at the expense of the rest of us.

[Dunedain]

illegal immigrants should be allowed on your private property no question.

As long these illegal immigrants you want to hire don't set foot in ANY public area like sidewalks, the U.S. border, the welfare office, roads, waterways, public schools, hospitals, U.S. airspace, subways, etc you should feel free to teleport them to your property and back to their nation when you are done with them. If they do need to access these public areas however, you should at least have the approval of some of the other 300 million people that live in the country.



If I want to hire someone and pay them to work for me, then no one but me has any business telling me whom I can and cannot hire. My money is my property to use in the purchase of the labor of my choice according to my own criteria and not the government's. If I own a house, it is my property and my right to have any guests there I want, or to rent out to anyone I want, regardless of where they were born without respect for anything anyone in government thinks. If I want to sell a piece of property to someone, then until I make that sale, that property is mine to keep or to sell to whomever I want on whatever terms we agree between ourselves without the government telling me whom I can't sell it to. And once I sell it to them it becomes theirs, and the government has no right to tell that buyer they cannot be on their own property no matter where they happen to have been born. If the Constitution says otherwise, then the Constitution is wrong.

[YumYum]

they should be allowed on your private property no question.

As long these illegal immigrants you want to hire don't set foot in any public area like sidewalks, the u.s. Border, the welfare office, roads, waterways, public schools, hospitals, u.s. Airspace, subways, etc you should feel free to teleport them to your property and back when you are done with them as much as you like. If they do need to access these public areas however, you should at least have the approval of the other 300 million people that live in the same country.

lol!!!!!

[romacox]

That was an excellent video Nelson Winters...I had not seen...thanks.

Video graphically showing how much immigration numbers have increased in recent years. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=oJ9dhqo0LA8

Expanding production (increasing manufacturing/ jobs) is what increases economic output and jobs (prosperity) . We are loosing Gross product/ jobs, while, at the same time increasing the labor force. That forces wages down....supply and demand. That also increases jobless numbers for everyone, including immigrants, and increases the homeless numbers. We currently have over 1 million school children that are now homeless.

2. As a business owner, I can tell you that many businesses are taking advantage of the over abundance of people applying for the same job, by lowering wages, and that was the goal . The employer who tries to maintain a fair wage finds himself in competition with these companies who can now do the same thing for much less because it is coming out of the pockets of his workers. In addition it puts more people in the poverty level who now qualify for food stamps, and other welfare programs. So now I not only must compete with those who pay substandard wages, I must also subsidize their low wages with your tax money and mine. If you like doing this, fine, but allow me to opt out.

Note: this is not the fault of the immigrant (legal or illegal). They are as much victims as are the American workers...same boat. Large corporations lobby for amnesty, more work visas, and open borders because the lower wages increase profits, and larger bonuses to CEOs. Ron Paul calls this "Corporatism". I can tell you also that they pressure us small business owners to hire illegal workers over legal workers. Here is a link to that story. The real danger is the destruction of the middle class in America. Countries that loose that loose the bridge from poverty to wealth which creates third world conditions...rich and poor only.
http://our-cyber-space.blogspot.com/...t-illegal.html

More documentation from C4L website: "When will the American people wake up and realize that for the last twenty years, both major political parties (at the national level) have been co-opted by globalists and internationalists who have no respect or appreciation for U.S. sovereignty, and who desire to create world government? When will they look past party labels and start seeing these globalists for what they really are: traitors to the principles enshrined in the Declaration of Independence and upon which America was established? "
http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=220

The Goal: Fiorina's statement that "there is no job that is America's God-given right anymore" triggered particularly strong reaction. The pair spoke in Washington representing the Computer Systems Policy Project, a group of eight chief executives from the nation's top information technology firms. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...NG6C46T0M1.DTL

[erowe1]

illegal immigrants should be allowed on your private property no question.

As long these illegal immigrants you want to hire don't set foot in ANY public area like sidewalks, the U.S. border, the welfare office, roads, waterways, public schools, hospitals, U.S. airspace, subways, etc you should feel free to teleport them to your property and back to their nation when you are done with them. If they do need to access these public areas however, you should at least have the approval of some of the other 300 million people that live in the country.

Of course. They should be able to move freely on the property of anyone who welcomes them, according to whatever deal they have between them. This should include any private roads, schools, hospitals, waterways, and airspace. Government-owned roads, air, water, schools hospitals, and welfare offices (we can do better than the Orwellian newspeak of calling these "public"), ought to be so rare that any ordinary person can go most or all of their lives without ever entering such places.

But also, nothing I said, nor anything Buchanan said, had anything to do with whether or not the immigrants were illegal immigrants.

[Dunedain]

Of course. They should be able to move freely on the property of anyone who welcomes them, according to whatever deal they have between them.

If you would have even our very waterways owned by potentially foreign companies owned by other governments and allow unlimited immigration to wherever in the country we don't have much in common to discuss.

A nation whose citizens that would allow such a thing would be the servants and slaves of foreign banks, foreign governments and foreign peoples.

[YumYum]

If you would have even our very waterways owned by potentially foreign companies owned by other governments and allow unlimited immigration to wherever in the country we don't have much in common to discuss.

A nation whose citizens that would allow such a thing would be the servants and slaves of foreign banks, foreign governments and foreign peoples.

We would be an exact duplicate of the greatest example of Free Market Utopia: Afghanistan.

[Dunedain]

We would be an exact duplicate of the greatest example of Free Market Utopia: Afghanistan.

That's a good point. I think the mistake people make about free markets is that because they are so efficient EVERYTHING has to be privately owned by someone or a corporation. The notion is demonstrably absurd.

More free markets are better, but to a point...at some point Walmart would purchase the very air with breathe if we allowed them to bid on it. Can the sun be purchased too?
Can you be charged for the estimated amount of photons that you absorb? Let's put the color Blue up for sale and have the free market regulate the visible light spectrum. Can people sell themselves out of their own free will into slavery?

Taken to an extreme, private ownership of everything in the universe can border on the ridiculous.

[erowe1]

If you would have even our very waterways owned by potentially foreign companies owned by other governments....

But that is precisely what you have proposed, namely that waterways should be owned by some "other" government, unless you think that the government which bases itself in Washington D.C. is somehow less "other" and somehow holds some greater right to impose itself upon us, whom it declares to be its subjects (along with numerous other subjects it declares to be under its authority around the globe, such as in Iraq and Afghanistan), than a government which bases itself in some other city does.

[YumYum]

That's a good point. I think the mistake people make about free markets is that because they are so efficient EVERYTHING has to be privately owned by someone or a corporation. The notion is demonstrably absurd.

More free markets are better, but to a point...at some point Walmart would purchase the very air with breathe if we allowed them to bid on it. Can the sun be purchased too?
Can you be charged for the estimated amount of photons that you absorb? Let's put the color Blue up for sale and have the free market regulate the visible light spectrum. Can people sell themselves out of their own free will into slavery?

Taken to an extreme, private ownership of everything in the universe can border on the ridiculous.

Why is it that you and I can see this, but people who worship Mises school of thought do not? While the thought of a perfect Free Market Utopia sounds good on paper, it could never work for the reasons you point out. Balance is the key. A small, de-centralized government that is not as corrupt as ours with Free AND Fair Market Trade would be ideal. You can't have a successful society that exists soley on the premise "Let the chips fall where they may!"

[Brian4Liberty]

Like any issue, there are multiple reasons for our love affair with massive immigration. At the top, it's mostly about cheap and easily controlled labor. But there are also many other philosophies, ideals, and hidden agendas that want massive immigration.

Is anarcho-globalism an official term yet?

[MelissaWV]

let me through a wrench into this...

How are Americans to compete when secondary education is practically free in foreign western developed nations compared to the American secondary Educational financial bubble to debt enslave students in this country?

While we spend Trillions waring and bribing the planet, building the police state on our soil at the people's expense, all while the competitive educated labor force in this country drops a few notches on the IQ latter.

Throw...

How are we "waring" the planet?

Ladder...

IQ isn't determined by education, either; it's a means of testing a certain form of intelligence. Elementary school children can and do take IQ tests, particularly for placement in advanced classes. The tests continue regardless of age or education, adjusted for the demographic to which the test taker belongs.

Ladders also don't have notches. They have rungs.

*sighs* :(

[erowe1]

Throw...

How are we "waring" the planet?

Ladder...


Ohhhhhhhh. Thanks. His whole post makes so much more sense now.

[BlackTerrel]

I don't necessarily disagree but it's not like Pat's message has changed. He wasn't advocating for immigration when the economy was good either. He doesn't want non-white immigration. No shocker there.


How can they justify bringing in another 1.5 immigrants in 2010 and another 1.5 million in 2011, when 25 million Americans they are supposed to represent are unemployed or underemployed?

Wow big increase in 2011 compared to 2010.


Which raises a question. Where is the Black Caucus?

Here are folks who favor preferential treatment for their black constituents over white Americans — i.e., affirmative action. But they go mute when it comes to immigrants coming and taking jobs and illegal aliens holding down 8 million of those jobs that could be going to the unemployed in their own community.

And Pat uses it at an excuse to take a shot at the Black Caucus. Again what a shocker.

[BlackTerrel]

If the typical immigrant was as law abiding and hardworking as your friend from Europe we probably wouldn't have a problem. The U.S. was built by a nation of, specifically, European immigrants and their decedents after all.

However, European's are discriminated against under our current immigration law. No, we like to import the illiterate masses from the 3rd world to dumb down the nation and create disunity (diversity) among the people. That way we are helpless against tyrants like most 3rd world nations are.

You sound like a typical Buchanan supporter. We've always been a nation of immigrants, you just don't like the color of the current immigrants.

[bobbyw24]

And Pat uses it at an excuse to take a shot at the Black Caucus. Again what a shocker.

I made sure to highlight that. LOL

[AuH20]

I don't necessarily disagree but it's not like Pat's message has changed. He wasn't advocating for immigration when the economy was good either. He doesn't want non-white immigration. No shocker there.



Wow big increase in 2011 compared to 2010.



And Pat uses it at an excuse to take a shot at the Black Caucus. Again what a shocker.


Pat doesn't want immigrants that won't assimilate. If they're primarily not white, that's not his fault. In fact, I'd gladly take Haitians as opposed to Mexicans if they won't drop the La Raza angle.

[bobbyw24]

Pat doesn't want immigrants that won't assimilate. If they're primarily not white, that's not his fault. In fact, I'd gladly take Haitians as opposed to Mexicans if they won't drop the La Raza angle.

An immigration-restrictionist friend of mine says he would bitch about 20 million illegal Swedes in America who refused to assimilate.

[bobbyw24]

like all other issues the nation faces is: Is this policy in our National Interest?


Members here always ask whether it's in our national interest to support Israel or have troops in the Middle East.

Immigration is no different: Is importing unskilled cheap labor in our national interest at any given time? I say some times yes and some times no.

[YumYum]

I don't necessarily disagree but it's not like Pat's message has changed. He wasn't advocating for immigration when the economy was good either. He doesn't want non-white immigration. No shocker there.



Wow big increase in 2011 compared to 2010.



And Pat uses it at an excuse to take a shot at the Black Caucus. Again what a shocker.

So, you think we should just let in everybody and his brother into this country, when those of us who are born here can't even get along? Whites against Blacks, Blacks against Whites, Whites and Mexicans against each other, People hating the Jews and the Jews hating back. And what about the Asians? We haven't fully accepted them yet into our society. Shouldn't we work out our differences with each other before we allow people into this country who speak a language we have never heard before and come from a country we can't pronounce? If we let more immigrants in we are setting the stage for race riots at this point. We are in hard times and many people, including blacks, should be resentful when they can't find a job because immigrants who can't stand Americans have moved here and will work for nothing. Americans better start putting themselves first, or there won't be any America.

[bobbyw24]

We are in hard times and many people, including blacks, should be resentful when they can't find a job because immigrants who can't stand Americans have moved here and will work for nothing. Americans better start putting themselves first, or there won't be any America.

Precisely why Pat asked about the Black Caucus being mum on this issue

[Dunedain]

You sound like a typical Buchanan supporter. We've always been a nation of immigrants, you just don't like the color of the current immigrants.

It's not the COLOR of the immigrants that bother me. It's that immigrants from the 3rd world are ruining the country that once valued freedom and are turning the country into their own 3rd world cesspools whereever they congregate in large numbers.

Even worse is that people like you support the continued degeneration of the country and prevent us from healing the nation.

[AuH20]

It's not the color of the immigrants that bother me. It's that they are ruining the country that once valued freedom and are turning the country into their own 3rd world cesspools whereever they congregate in large numbers.

Even worse is that people like you support the continued degeneration of the country and prevent us from healing the nation.

Because many of these people never knew freedom and when they're presented with a comparably better life, they'll gladly become a serf of the system. On top of it, they're too busy trying to survive to educate themselves. I honestly feel bad for the plight of immigrants but they're being ultiized as a tool to destroy the middle class. The middle class in this country is last remnant of resistance in this world, even it's downtrodden state.

[BlackTerrel]

An immigration-restrictionist friend of mine says he would bitch about 20 million illegal Swedes in America who refused to assimilate.

Personally I'd take it. Swedish girls are hot. That said what are there 5 million people in Sweden? I doubt they're sending us 20 mill?

[Brian4Liberty]

We've always been a nation of immigrants, you just don't like the color of the current immigrants.

Not everyone who opposes massive, uncontrolled immigration is a racist.

[BlackTerrel]

So, you think we should just let in everybody and his brother into this country, when those of us who are born here can't even get along? Whites against Blacks, Blacks against Whites, Whites and Mexicans against each other, People hating the Jews and the Jews hating back. And what about the Asians? We haven't fully accepted them yet into our society. Shouldn't we work out our differences with each other before we allow people into this country who speak a language we have never heard before and come from a country we can't pronounce? If we let more immigrants in we are setting the stage for race riots at this point. We are in hard times and many people, including blacks, should be resentful when they can't find a job because immigrants who can't stand Americans have moved here and will work for nothing. Americans better start putting themselves first, or there won't be any America.

Dude - you are spending time on too many strange internet websites. Race riots my ass. I'm not saying we don't have problems - we do - but take a breath and relax and go outside. Race relations are better than they have ever been in this country and they are only getting better.

And what exactly are you proposing? Race based immigration?

[Dunedain]

Because many of these people never knew freedom and when they're presented with a comparably better life, they'll gladly become a serf of a system. On top of it, they're too busy trying to survive to educate themselves. I honestly feel bad for the plight of immigrants but they're being ultiized as a tool to destroy the middle class. The middle class in this country is last remnant of resistance in this world, even it's downtrodden state.

I agree. Look how many "immigrants" are at the Ron Paul rallies. The liberty movement is a middle class movement to maintain our standard of living. "Immigrants" don't seem to want to change how things are going in the country. They want to sit back and eat the fruits of our labor.

I don't blame immigrants for wanting to come here to make a better life for themselves - but that doesn't mean we're responsible for rescuing them. We need to put the scare into our elected officials or we'll all be living in a 3rd world country someday.

[BlackTerrel]

Not everyone who opposes massive, uncontrolled immigration is a racist.

Not everyone. Personally I think we have too much immigration. I just don't like Buchanan piling on with his own agenda. The poster I was responding to said we were founded on European immigration and that was good, but now we have "3rd world immigration" and that is bad.

I don't believe you discriminate against which immigrants you take. I do think it is perfectly legitimate to say we don't have enough jobs for the people here, we don't need to import more people who are looking for jobs right now.

[Dunedain]

Race relations are better than they have ever been in this country and they are only getting better.


Hitler probably thought the same thing after he started implementing his reforms.

From the black community's perspective, they have more racial special rights and privileges than ever. Perhaps this is what you are gloating about?

The reality is the rise of ethnopolitics has been the dominate social topic in the last decade.

[MelissaWV]

The more of these posts appear, the less this brown lady wants to be a part of those rallies :rolleyes:

I don't think there should be a "stop" to immigration per se, considering we could use business owners regardless of where they come from. Perhaps the biggest problem, one only hinted at in prior posts, is one with two huge components:


Poor immigrants.

Rich immigrants.


We need to examine why our nation is so attractive to the poor immigrants, and why it isn't attracting business-owning immigrants in droves. Perhaps we don't want to stoop to making the exact opposite true (being attractive to business-owners sometimes involves some questionable policies), but others have mentioned the freebies that attract impoverished illegals. Perhaps we need to get the word out that you don't get a white fence and a dog and a car and a TV and a DVD player and a Wii upon arrival in this country, but that there IS a chance that you MIGHT work your way up to having some of those things.

Letting in a business owner who happens to be of foreign citizenship and wants to open a branch here is not a bad idea. In fact, it's a great idea, as they'd be hiring American workers. The trouble is that this theoretical owner would then face taxation issues, unfriendly zoning, protestors (most likely), unions, minimum wage laws, miscellaneous labor laws, healthcare provisions, liability insurance requirements, and a ferociously competitive market for most goods/services. The reality is that the rich folks are opening plants in Mexico, and the poor folks are coming to the USA. Good job? :confused:

[erowe1]

Pat doesn't want immigrants that won't assimilate.

Assimilate to what?

What is our government supposed to be? The borg?
"You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile...."

[Dunedain]

Assimilate to what?

What is our government supposed to be? The borg?
"You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile...."

Speaking the language would be a great start...I'm getting sick of "press one for English".

[AuH20]

Assimilate to what?

What is our government supposed to be? The borg?
"You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile...."

Case in point.

http://www.infowars.com/mexicans-say-mexican-americans-owe-loyalty-to-mexico-over-u-s/


Nearly 70 percent of Mexicans surveyed said that Mexican-Americans – including those born in the United States – owe their primary loyalty to Mexico, not the U.S., according to a Zogby poll commissioned by the Center for Immigration Studies

Import countless millions of foreign nationals with no prerequisites, and this is the toxic brew you're mixing.

[erowe1]

Speaking the language would be a great start...I'm getting sick of "press one for English".

I can require that people speak English in my house. But I have no right to impose the same rule on my next door neighbor's property, much less the property of someone 500 miles away from me. Nor does anyone else have that right. And if I don't want to do business with non-English speakers, or with companies that ask English speakers to press a number on the phone, I don't have to. If enough people felt that way strongly enough to take their business elsewhere, you can be sure that at least companies jealous for their business would chase it by dropping that from their phone systems and leaving the non-English speaking business they lose in the process to their competitors.

[MelissaWV]

Case in point.

http://www.infowars.com/mexicans-say-mexican-americans-owe-loyalty-to-mexico-over-u-s/



Import countless millions of foreign nationals with no prerequisites, and this is the toxic brew you're mixing.

You realize that statistic (oft-quoted lately... sad stuf...) is total bunk?


When asked “Should the primary loyalty of Mexican-Americans be to Mexico or to the U.S.?” 68.8 percent of respondents in Mexico said that it should be to Mexico...

Wait... you mean Mexicans in Mexico think that Mexicans (and Mexican-Americans) should be loyal to Mexico? Oh. My. God. Next you will tell me that the Star-Spangled Banner is pro-American.

By the by, I have no problem with "Press 1 for English," so long as it's being done by private entities. I do have a problem with the Government bowing to pressure to include "commonly-spoken languages" in their brochures and hotlines. This is not exclusive to Spanish. At very best, the Government could have a small department to validate "official" translations done by private entities of Government publications. This stamp would be along the lines of an "Energy Star" seal. Basically, you see that stamp, then it's an approved translation. That is way cheaper than the Government doing the research, generation, publication, and distribution of non-English materials and services.

I also have no problem with people not speaking English in this country, so long as I'm not required to cater to their specific language by law. If I don't speak Vietnamese, and I have set up shop in a Vietnamese neighborhood, then it's partly my fault, and I can try to figure out how to remedy the situation, or I can move, or I can refuse service to those that don't speak passable English (and if I go out of business, that'd be my fault, too). There are pockets where one language is spoken over another. There are pockets where one topolect is almost exclusively spoken. Do you say "pop" or "soda" or "Coke"? Do you "park" or "pahk"? One can examine the past entries in this thread and come to the conclusion that "native speakers" might be denied service at many establishments, if speaking English were a requirement for receiving it :p

[AuH20]

You realize that statistic (oft-quoted lately... sad stuf...) is total bunk?


Wait... you mean Mexicans in Mexico think that Mexicans (and Mexican-Americans) should be loyal to Mexico? Oh. My. God. Next you will tell me that the Star-Spangled Banner is pro-American.

So you're implying that they leave their sentiments at the mexican side of the border? I find that hard to believe, especially given how broken the melting pot has become.

[erowe1]

Case in point.

http://www.infowars.com/mexicans-say-mexican-americans-owe-loyalty-to-mexico-over-u-s/



Import countless millions of foreign nationals with no prerequisites, and this is the toxic brew you're mixing.

That article is employing one of the most dastardly neologisms of our age by referring to a country when it means a government. That government which exists in Washington D.C. is not America. And it is not a friend of the American people. In fact, it imposes greater burdens on the American people than any other single organization anywhere. No one, no matter where they were born or where they live, owes those despots any loyalty at all. So if someone says that people who have moved to Indianapolis from Tiajuana now owe loyalty to the despots in Mexico City rather than the ones in Washington, I may disagree, since I think they owe nothing to either group. But it's really no skin off my back. And if those folks feel the need to resist the demands of the despots in Washington to assimilate to their control, then I find that they and I share a common cause.

[BlackTerrel]

Hitler probably thought the same thing after he started implementing his reforms.

Why are you throwing Hitler? Or are you comparing him to 1% of the vote Buchanan.

Get off the internet - Americans of all races get along just fine.

[AuH20]

That article is employing one of the most dastardly neologisms of our age by referring to a country when it means a government. That government which exists in Washington D.C. is not America. And it is not a friend of the American people. In fact, it imposes greater burdens on the American people than any other single organization anywhere. No one, no matter where they were born or where they live, owe those despots any loyalty at all. So if someone says that people who have moved to Indianapolis from Tiajuana now owe loyalty to the despots in Mexico City rather than the ones in Washington, I disagree, since they owe nothing to either group. But it's really no skin off my back. And if those folks feel the need to resist the demands of the despots in Washington to assimilate to their control, then I find that they and I share a common cause.

The inherent problem being that they want those very despots to take care of them and feed them. It's a human nature problem. Why would any Mexican rail against our corrupt government when it's 10 times more affable at face than their own?

[BlackTerrel]

Nearly 70 percent of Mexicans surveyed said that Mexican-Americans – including those born in the United States – owe their primary loyalty to Mexico, not the U.S., according to a Zogby poll commissioned by the Center for Immigration Studies

This is a pretty stupid poll. If you want to know what Mexican-Americans think how about you survey...oh I don't know... Mexican-Americans!

Why the fuck would Zogby survey Mexicans in Mexico to determine what Mexican-Americans think? Unless they wanted to push a certain agenda?

[MelissaWV]

So you're implying that they leave their sentiments at the mexican side of the border? I find that hard to believe, especially given how broken the melting pot has become.

You're kind of missing the fact that they're ON THAT SIDE OF THE BORDER. Of course they are loyal to the country they're living in; they're still living in it. Of course they think other countrymen should be loyal to the country they're living in; they're living in it. Most "face to face surveys" do not seek out border town about-to-leave Mexicans. You're using a survey of Mexicans in Mexico to make some kind of distorted leap in logic about Mexicans in the USA, and moreover the original post was about immigrants in general.

Strangely, when immigration comes up, the generalizations fly, and inevitably fall upon the evil Mexicans all trying to come into the USA and bust the melting pot. There are other nations quite guilty of sending us their poor and whatnot, too, and those folks aren't in any greater hurry to "melt" in with everyone else. Hell, the "natives" (you know, a few generations removed from "Irish need not apply" and such) don't seem in too great a hurry to melt in with one another.

I still stand by my assertion that immigration isn't the problem, in and of itself. The original question is "Why Import Workers Now?" so the answer may be a simple "We shouldn't; we should import business owners."

[erowe1]

The inherent problem being that they want the despots to take care of them and feed them. It's a human nature problem. Why would any Mexican rail against our corrupt government when it's 10 times more affable at face than their own?

I agree that that's a problem , and it's one that exists for all people who go to our government for care and food, no matter where they were born. It's just as wrong to make an American tax payer fund the welfare check given to a white person born in America as for a brown person born in Mexico. It's also wrong to prohibit American employers from hiring workers whom the government classifies as illegal immigrants. I propose that we can be fully consistent while opposing both of those wrongs, rather than choosing one over the other.

[AuH20]

Strangely, when immigration comes up, the generalizations fly, and inevitably fall upon the evil Mexicans all trying to come into the USA and bust the melting pot. There are other nations quite guilty of sending us their poor and whatnot, too, and those folks aren't in any greater hurry to "melt" in with everyone else. Hell, the "natives" (you know, a few generations removed from "Irish need not apply" and such) don't seem in too great a hurry to melt in with one another.


What other countries send 30 million undocumented workers to our nation? What about the Haitians who get shipped off before they even hit the beach? Why are they considered less valuable than your average OTM or Mexican? Not a large enough special interest bloc? :D It's such a joke. And the race card is routinely thrown into our goddamn faces, when the enablers construct this secondary society where you shall not dare question someone's citizenship status or their english proficiency.

[Dunedain]

Why are you throwing Hitler? Or are you comparing him to 1% of the vote Buchanan.

Get off the internet - Americans of all races get along just fine.

Sorry, we have institutionalized racism in place today and it benefits people that are lucky enough to have the right skin color. Someone like you for instance; I believe that is why you don't see any of the racial struggles America is having...you apparently, aren't struggling.

You have the nerve to say that "everything is fine" between our squabbling racial groups in the U.S. Of course this is a total lie. Just turn on the news and watch ethno-politics in action. Jessa Jackson, Al Sharpton, David Duke, Pat Buchannan, La Raza, the ADL. But you are personally benefiting from affirmative action, special rights and privileges under the law and so you want to everyone ignore the elephant in the room? Sorry, I don't have any tolerance for cowardice such as that. Especially, within the movement itself.

Why don't you join the NAACP if you enjoy the status quo so much, if you aren't a card carrying member already.

[romacox]

An old saying: If one cant kill the message, kill the messenger. So people who can't think logically resort to name calling with words like: raciest, protectionist, anti-immigrant .......

The immigrant (legal or legal) is not to blame. They are as much a victim as the American borne worker.

When factories moved out of the U.S. to Mexico for cheaper labor they displaced farmers and destroyed farm land in Mexico with a promise of prosperity. Alas when they found cheaper labor elsewhere they pulled out of Mexico leaving destroyed farm land, unemployed workers, and empty factories. Sound familiar?

Recently I was talking to HP tech. support in Brazil. We began talking about what happened in Mexico. He told me the same thing was happening there because these large corporations were pulling out of Brazil for cheaper labor in India. He was surprised to hear the same thing has happened here in the U.S. They often think these large international corporations are Americans...you and me. They blame you and me. Ron Paul's word "Corporatism" best describes this condition.

So, can we finish with attacking each other, and return to the subject?

[BlackTerrel]

Sorry, we have institutionalized racism in place today and it benefits people that are lucky enough to have the right skin color. Someone like you for instance; I believe that is why you don't see any of the racial struggles America is having...you apparently, aren't struggling.

You have the nerve to say that "everything is fine" between our squabbling racial groups in the U.S. Of course this is a total lie. Just turn on the news and watch ethno-politics in action. Jessa Jackson, Al Sharpton, David Duke, Pat Buchannan, La Raza, the ADL. But you are personally benefiting from affirmative action, special rights and privileges under the law and so you want to everyone ignore the elephant in the room? Sorry, I don't have any tolerance for cowardice such as that. Especially, within the movement itself.

Why don't you join the NAACP if you enjoy the status quo so much, if you aren't a card carrying member already.

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/sex-windy-city/dawson-crying_edt.JPG

[MelissaWV]

What other countries send 30 million undocumented workers to our nation? What about the Haitians who get shipped off before they even hit the beach? Why are they considered less valuable than your average OTM or Mexican? Not a large enough special interest bloc? :D It's such a joke. And the race card is routinely thrown into our goddamn faces, when the enablers construct this secondary society where you shall not dare question someone's citizenship status or their english proficiency.

I believe there are various typographical errors in your post bemoaning the demise of English. :rolleyes: Perhaps you could reread the original post and get back to me on how this is specifically relevant. If a body has various mortal wounds, stopping one (even if it's significantly worse than the others) is not going to increase survival. Perhaps one should concentrate on removing the victim from the situation inflicting all of these mortal wounds, and introducing beneficial therapies. That is what I have proposed.

Depending on which community you are living in, by the way, Mexicans may or may not be the biggest "problem." This is not a crisis unique to the United States, either, nor does it originate in one nation or region. Mexico's huge, and it has a huge border with us, so that's going to be the biggest source of undocumented immigrants, yes. Statistically, it is the largest source of the woes being attributed to immigrants throughout this thread.

Instead of whining about "those people" not learning English, though, maybe one should concentrate on eliminating the expensive programs that entice people to do very little and come here with misconceptions of what lifestyles await them. I don't think it's particularly freedom-loving to impose standards on people that those doing the imposing don't follow. It reeks of the same "good thinking" that has the Government overseeing itself, and also writing the loopholes that its members often leap through.

Instead of looking at the origins of our current workforce, perhaps a closer examination of the kinds of jobs still to be had in the United States would be more fruitful. Some jobs are being sucked overseas or across the borders; why? What can be done to bring them back, or at least keep more companies from joining the ranks of "Assembled in Mexico" stamps? Dare we dream! Perhaps we could even be so ambitious as to attempt to import jobs ourselves. I don't believe that our lagging in the numerical level of education is as important, for instance, as the fact our workers lag in the real value placed on knowledge. Our schools are a joke. There is a great deal of wasted time, and even more wasted potential. Our Government's policies are making it increasingly clear that intelligence is not the least bit a virtue here.

Yet the discourse is reduced to "those people don't speak english good," as it often is. I guess this is a bad time to point out that this isn't my primary language, isn't it? :D

[YumYum]

Dude - you are spending time on too many strange internet websites. Race riots my ass. I'm not saying we don't have problems - we do - but take a breath and relax and go outside. Race relations are better than they have ever been in this country and they are only getting better.

And what exactly are you proposing? Race based immigration?

No. I agree with Pat Buchanan. We should curb the flow of immigrants into this country while we are in this economic turmoil. It turns out that many immigrants come from many different cultures, and we as Americans have to be tolerant and assimalate these different cultures into our societies, whether we like it or not. In the broad picture, yes, an ideal world is where we should all get along and love one another, but we are far from an ideal world. The reason that black people are keeping "mum" about the tide of immigrants is because they are benefitting more than any other race under this stimulus money. You know why? Because they have priority over every other race when it comes to federal employment, employment by a company who has a contract with the federal government. The biggest payday for affirmitive action beneficiaries that the blacks get is that as private contractors, they win the bid on ANY contract with the federal government over every other race, except Native Americans. Blacks are making bank right now, so why should they say anything? When there ain't no more stimulatin' money, blacks will sound just like white folk.

[MelissaWV]

*tangent* Suddenly this page is displaying Ann Coulter ads :p

[Dunedain]

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/sex-windy-city/dawson-crying_edt.JPG

Right, nothing sensible to say in response. Typical for left-wing affirmative action supporters backed into a corner.

[nbhadja]

Most of these 3rd world immigrants our benefiting off of our current system of freebies, no? If we were to remove the welfare incentives, would not most of these 3rd world immigrants be unable to compete at their current levels.?

Not all immigrants are free loaders who commit a lot of crime and take up welfare, but unfortunately a lot are. I agree that if we got rid of welfare incentives all of the illegals would leave America by themselves.

I would say severely cut down on immigrants from Latin America and increase immigrants from Europe and Asia.

I don't care if anyone thinks I am racist for saying this, but there is a huge difference between what Asian/European immigrants contribute to America and what immigrants from Latin America/Africa/Jamaica etc contribute.

If you can't see that then you are just blind or have your head in the sand.

[Lord Xar]

I believe there are various typographical errors in your post bemoaning the demise of English. :rolleyes: Perhaps you could reread the original post and get back to me on how this is specifically relevant. If a body has various mortal wounds, stopping one (even if it's significantly worse than the others) is not going to increase survival. Perhaps one should concentrate on removing the victim from the situation inflicting all of these mortal wounds, and introducing beneficial therapies. That is what I have proposed.

Using this argument I can easily say "Since it is a crime to enter the country illegally and morally destructive to feed off the fruits of another, lets round up these illegals and send them back".

You raise a silly comparison. You don't need to do just one thing. IMHO, it is much easier to deport illegals, fine employers, restrict access to schools/hospitals than it is to shut-down the whole welfare entitlement process, and special interests' needs for a power bloc. I believe you have to take pronged approach. I find arguments like this to just fuel the status quo. You suggest a solution that, realistically, will not happen. How long do you think it would take to stop these welfare programs/incentives to come here? years? decades? What sort of political manuevering would have to take place? I can say with certainty that the majority of these illegals who get amnesty (which is gonna happen), will vote left. Which then will encourage bigger government and more entitlements. So, to me - your gambit is an ill-fated one and actually will just exasperate the problem.



Depending on which community you are living in, by the way, Mexicans may or may not be the biggest "problem." This is not a crisis unique to the United States, either, nor does it originate in one nation or region. Mexico's huge, and it has a huge border with us, so that's going to be the biggest source of undocumented immigrants, yes. Statistically, it is the largest source of the woes being attributed to immigrants throughout this thread.

Mexico being huge with a large border is irrelevant. You keep making excuses and validations for mexicans. 20+million illegal immigrants are here in the U.S. Upwards of 80% are of mexican origin and ~90% are of latino origin (including mexican origin of course), in total. So, if you are that rare person that lives in a neighborhood of chinese illegal immigrants, great. So statistically, its right on track to people's irritations in this thread.




Instead of whining about "those people" not learning English, though, maybe one should concentrate on eliminating the expensive programs that entice people to do very little and come here with misconceptions of what lifestyles await them. I don't think it's particularly freedom-loving to impose standards on people that those doing the imposing don't follow. It reeks of the same "good thinking" that has the Government overseeing itself, and also writing the loopholes that its members often leap through.


huh? Do you place ANY accountability on lawbreakers? - well, that doesn't make sense since they broke the law so they probably have no accountability. I don't know about you, but when my family came here from Italy, they learned the language - they fit in, they learned the customs. They didn't have this "entitlement mentality" that you are actually fostering. There is a tremendous amount of balkanization going on because of this flood of illegal immigrants, + chain migration etc.. with no expectations or accountability from this community. Don't get me wrong, I do agree that we need to stop the incentives that drive illegal immigration. I just don't see that happening anytime soon. I find that it might be easier to piecemeal tactics that work toward the same solution, than trying to put all of our energy into one tactic - ending the incentives.




Yet the discourse is reduced to "those people don't speak english good," as it often is. I guess this is a bad time to point out that this isn't my primary language, isn't it? :D
Another irrelevant comment. I could care less what your primary language is.

[MelissaWV]

I love how someone can quote my talking about people not being required to learn English, and instead turn that into an argument about legality. I'm sure it occurs to that person that there are people here legally who don't speak English as their primary language. I can only surmise that person is being deliberately obtuse, in the same way that they purposefully read only one post (and not the entire thread). The original post is about immigrants, not "illegal immigrants" or "Mexican immigrants." Stopping immigration altogether is not as grand a solution as putting standards into place to use immigration as a positive economic influence. Since certain posters are worried about the viability of solutions, I'm sure the "shut down the borders" people will get the same treatment.

I do think we need to do a great deal to keep undocumented immigrants out of the country, so long as we're going to have a border at all. I also believe that the fact we can't achieve what I talked about instantly, is no reason to discourage working towards goals of reducing incentives to exploit the system (by legal and illegal residents alike). Why are people so very hung up on who it is that's exploiting the system, rather than tightening up the loopholes? If the original premise is that we should be using immigration policy to assist this nation economically, then why not place economic tie-ins on immigrant applications? Other countries do this. They award points for education, whether or not you own your business (or intend to start one), whether you speak the language of the nation you're moving to, etc.. That's what I'm proposing.

I'm not making excuses for Mexicans. I'm wondering why the hell people are dwelling on what brand of sneakers a robber is wearing, rather than stopping the theft.

Mexico being huge with a large border is irrelevant. You keep making excuses and validations for mexicans. 20+million illegal immigrants are here in the U.S. Upwards of 80% are of mexican origin and ~90% are of latino origin (including mexican origin of course), in total. So, if you are that rare person that lives in a neighborhood of chinese illegal immigrants, great. So statistically, its right on track to people's irritations in this thread.

Oddly, this is contradictory to:


The Illegal immigrant population of the United States is estimated to be about 11 million people, down from a historic peak of 12.5 million people in 2007.[2] According to a Pew Hispanic Center report, in 2005 57% of illegal immigrants were from Mexico, 24% were from other Latin American countries, primarily from Central America,[3] 9% were from Asia, 6% were from Europe and Canada, and 4% were from the rest of the world.[3]

Please remember that these numbers don't really reflect concentration. There are areas with pockets of Chinese or Vietnamese or Mexican or Cuban or whatever-else illegals; people tend to gather together. If "only" 9% are Asian, but they gather in a few select areas, then there are going to be areas that view it as a problem. Then again, these are all estimates, because if there were an exact count... they wouldn't REALLY be undocumented.

Regarding your family, I'm sure that even if they came to this country with a 90 year old grandmother as the familial matriarch, she learned English, and only shopped at stores at which people spoke perfect English :) That's awesome for you. I don't, personally, expect everyone to learn perfect English... not even the people who've lived in the United States for generations. I'm just tickled that some who can't spell, speak, or piece together a fairly intelligent sentence hold others to a higher standard. Perhaps I have a dark sense of humor.

I still have yet to hear from anyone, though, why policy should be based on origin, perceived race, or anything other than the demonstrable skill set a potential immigrant would bring to a country. I'm likely going to hear a lot more labels before I hear that debate. I'm also likely to read a lot more stuff that has nothing to do with how immigration policy could be used to help our economic status as a country.

[AuH20]

I believe there are various typographical errors in your post bemoaning the demise of English. :rolleyes: Perhaps you could reread the original post and get back to me on how this is specifically relevant. If a body has various mortal wounds, stopping one (even if it's significantly worse than the others) is not going to increase survival. Perhaps one should concentrate on removing the victim from the situation inflicting all of these mortal wounds, and introducing beneficial therapies. That is what I have proposed.

Depending on which community you are living in, by the way, Mexicans may or may not be the biggest "problem." This is not a crisis unique to the United States, either, nor does it originate in one nation or region. Mexico's huge, and it has a huge border with us, so that's going to be the biggest source of undocumented immigrants, yes. Statistically, it is the largest source of the woes being attributed to immigrants throughout this thread.

Instead of whining about "those people" not learning English, though, maybe one should concentrate on eliminating the expensive programs that entice people to do very little and come here with misconceptions of what lifestyles await them. I don't think it's particularly freedom-loving to impose standards on people that those doing the imposing don't follow. It reeks of the same "good thinking" that has the Government overseeing itself, and also writing the loopholes that its members often leap through.

Instead of looking at the origins of our current workforce, perhaps a closer examination of the kinds of jobs still to be had in the United States would be more fruitful. Some jobs are being sucked overseas or across the borders; why? What can be done to bring them back, or at least keep more companies from joining the ranks of "Assembled in Mexico" stamps? Dare we dream! Perhaps we could even be so ambitious as to attempt to import jobs ourselves. I don't believe that our lagging in the numerical level of education is as important, for instance, as the fact our workers lag in the real value placed on knowledge. Our schools are a joke. There is a great deal of wasted time, and even more wasted potential. Our Government's policies are making it increasingly clear that intelligence is not the least bit a virtue here.

Yet the discourse is reduced to "those people don't speak english good," as it often is. I guess this is a bad time to point out that this isn't my primary language, isn't it? :D

Mexicans and other OTMs from south of the border are being used as a wedge. I have nothing against these people. But when 30 million arrive and suddenly are given carte blanche treatment at the expense of the citizenry, a modicum of common sense is in order. Americans are by and large a generous people, until they are crossed and subsequently exploited. That is what is taking place here. Imagine for a second if you may if 30 million illegals are naturalized and given voting rights? Do you really see a large majority voting libertarian, given their impeccable grasp on our founding document? ;)

[MelissaWV]

Mexicans and other OTMs from south of the border are being used as a wedge. I have nothing against these people. But when 30 million arrive and suddenly are given carte blanche treatment at the expense of the citizenry, a modicum of common sense is in order. Americans are by and large a generous people, until they are crossed and subsequently exploited. That is what is taking place here. Imagine for a second if you may if 30 million illegals are naturalized and given voting rights? Do you really see a large majority voting libertarian, given their impeccable grasp on our founding document? ;)

And therein is the real problem. I don't see that as being unique to illegals, though. As others have pointed out, this is what happens when people depend on the Government, period. More and more folks are depending upon it for "freebies" (illegals moreso than others, since they don't pay in as much/anything)... free healthcare, free foodstamps, free this, free that... help us, Obama! If a Government plays its cards right, it makes people HAVE to vote for them, or else they fear the world will end and the freebies will dry up. :mad: It's not free, dammit! I'm paying for it!!!

[nbhadja]

"Our Government's policies are making it increasingly clear that intelligence is not the least bit a virtue here."

The government is doing that on purpose. They want a dumb mindless voting base. Why do you think that they are letting in such uneducated immigrants??

And to keep these uneducated immigrants here, they offer them welfare programs and such. In time as the uneducated immigrants multiply like rabbits, they will all vote yes to unconstitutional terrible bills that give the US sovereignty away to global organizations.

[BlackTerrel]

Right, nothing sensible to say in response. Typical for left-wing affirmative action supporters backed into a corner.

Where did I say I supported affirmative action? How did affirmative action even get into this debate?

You went on a big fucking whine about how terrible white people have it, black people get all the money etc... Boo fucking hoo. I hate whiners and I responded accordingly.

[Met Income]

The problem with immigration is not that they take jobs at low wages. If they are productive, they make us all better off.

The problem is that illegal immigrants get too many benefits from the fruits of our labor. Focus on that.

[Brian4Liberty]

Letting in a business owner who happens to be of foreign citizenship and wants to open a branch here is not a bad idea. In fact, it's a great idea, as they'd be hiring American workers.

I can speak from reality on the issue of business owners who are "fresh off the boat" and hiring practices. There are two issues involved:

1. Basic human nature tends to result in people hiring "like" people.
2. Diversity is an American concept and new immigrants have often not assimilated (or agree with) that concept.

In other words, many middle-class immigrants come here and open businesses, or get into a position where they do the hiring. Almost without exception, they hire their own, not Americans. It's simple human nature, without American programming. They will first hire from their family, their friends, their village, their ethnicity, their religion, their college, their region, their country, their caste (or lower), etc. Hiring an American is last on the list.

[Brian4Liberty]

Assimilate to what?


Minarchism? ;)

[MelissaWV]

I can speak from reality on the issue of business owners who are "fresh off the boat" and hiring practices. There are two issues involved:

1. Basic human nature tends to result in people hiring "like" people.
2. Diversity is an American concept and new immigrants have often not assimilated (or agree with) that concept.

In other words, many middle-class immigrants come here and open businesses, or get into a position where they do the hiring. Almost without exception, they hire their own, not Americans. It's simple human nature, without American programming. They will first hire from their family, their friends, their village, their ethnicity, their religion, their college, their region, their country, their caste (or lower), etc. Hiring an American is last on the list.

That is still a "help" to the economy, versus someone merely arriving here with nothing but big dreams. I know the situation of which you speak, and it occurs largely with small business owners. If those small businesses grow, they do end up hiring people outside of family/friends, though, and even the family/friends will purchase one of those surplus houses we have floating around, or a vehicle that isn't full of Government subsidies (usually used vehicles, and more often than the norm, cash or "family financed," but the purchases are still made. The raw materials to start that business here in the USA are still purchased from our economy, and if the family is staying here to run a business then the money stays within the community.

Contrast this to a single worker sneaking into this country, making money, sending it back home, renting, leeching healthcare, etc..

I didn't say immigrants would magically solve our economic woes, but I do think that it's the type of immigrants (not the quantity, origin, etc.) that is the problem.

[KenInMontiMN]

All avenues of response to illegal immigration are good ones -

We must actively round up and deport.
We must deny all govt benefits - federal, state, & local - to the undocumented / falsely documented, not just welfare.
We must heavily penalize industry that violates, and remember the demand has come to be for the undocumented and therefore easily manipulated, not the legal immigrant. Legal immigrants get displaced along with natural-born Americans to a degree by the next wave of illegal/undocumented/falsely documented.
We must have secure borders, but that is really secondary to dealing with the real issues above. Mass illegal flow across the borders is/was a symptom of the real issues mentioned above, not the heart of the problem itself.

[KenInMontiMN]

With regard to legal immigration, on the other hand -

There should always be an avenue of entry for the best and the brightest, though regulation of that flow according to peaks and valleys in demand is not unreasonable.

General intake of the less skilled and unskilled must always reflect demand, and anytime there are massive numbers of citizens idle that demand must be considered to be zero. Just off the top of my head, looking at the situation today, there are a good number of issues to be addressed ahead of any consideration for such general intake, since govt does things to unproductively remove so many Americans from the work force big picture. Those things to be addressed include:
---having the vast majority of our deployed armed forces back home and in jobs.
---having the million-plus who are incarcerated despite no history of victimization back home and in jobs.
---having the untold millions, who are now out beyond the unemployment count, and can't get hired because victimless criminal misdemeanor/felony history is being shared with employers, back in jobs. Such information-sharing on victimless matters must end, with the exception of driving record in the specific instance of driving jobs.
---having our true unemployment numbers at or below 5% after all of the above are accomplished.

It's reasonable to say, I think, that accomplishing all of the above prior to any more general immigration intake, puts such intake a good decade or more into the future in all likelihood.

[bobbyw24]

With regard to legal immigration, on the other hand -

There should always be an avenue of entry for the best and the brightest, though regulation of that flow according to peaks and valleys in demand is not unreasonable.


The Bottom Line on the Immigration Issue like all other issues the nation faces is: Is this policy in our National Interest?

Immigration is no different: Is importing unskilled cheap labor in our national interest at any given time? I say some times yes and some times no.
__________________

[KenInMontiMN]

I agree. Very much in our national interest when real demand insists upon it, very much contrary to our national interest when the demand is gone, even more contrary to our national interest when it helps enable massive redirection of Americans into military uniform and into prison and jail cells.

[YumYum]

Who will pick the lettuce?:D

[bobbyw24]

Who will pick the lettuce?:D

In Florida, the question is: Who will put roofs on new houses?

[erowe1]

The Bottom Line on the Immigration Issue like all other issues the nation faces is: Is this policy in our National Interest?


No. That is not the bottom line on the immigration issue or any other issue. Legislative policy issues are at bottom ethical issues, and the bottom line question is never, "Will this make someone better off?" but "Is this right or wrong?"

The central planners may well be fully convinced that their ideas will do the most material good for the greatest number of people. But if those policies involve them doing things that are wrong, then they must be rejected no matter whose lives they improve. The goverment has no right to tell anyone whom they can and cannot hire. And even if all the laws that try to do exactly that really did make us all better off (and they don't), they would still be indefensible.

[bobbyw24]

The goverment has no right to tell anyone whom they can and cannot hire.

Good luck getting the government to accept this idea

[erowe1]

Good luck getting the government to accept this idea

It's not a claim about what is but about what ought. I'm not going to pretend that something is ok, when it isn't, just because it commonly happens.

[Brian4Liberty]

Why import more workers now, when it will further stress the system, and create more unrest among the under and unemployed, and those who can not make the bills?

There are multiple agendas, but this particular hidden agenda should not be ignored. Immigration, welfare, and universal health-care have stealth purposes. Of course the strategy has been refined since it was first developed:



First proposed in 1966 and named after Columbia University sociologists Richard Andrew Cloward and Frances Fox Piven, the "Cloward-Piven Strategy" seeks to hasten the fall of capitalism by overloading the government bureaucracy with a flood of impossible demands, thus pushing society into crisis and economic collapse.
...
Rather than placating the poor with government hand-outs, wrote Cloward and Piven, activists should work to sabotage and destroy the welfare system; the collapse of the welfare state would ignite a political and financial crisis that would rock the nation; poor people would rise in revolt; only then would "the rest of society" accept their demands.

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=6967

[bobbyw24]

Why import more workers now, when it will further stress the system, and create more unrest among the under and unemployed, and those who can not make the bills?

There are multiple agendas, but this particular hidden agenda should not be ignored. Immigration, welfare, and universal health-care have stealth purposes:

Yep-Marxists love this stuff

[Met Income]

Opposing immigration doesn't make economic sense. If immigration occurs for occupational reasons, it means that firms can use the labor to generate a profit. More profit means a combination of more investment, more jobs, lower prices and more goods and services. This is a good thing.

Limiting immigration to save American jobs sounds very Keynesian. Spending isn't the problem, production is.

[bobbyw24]

Personally I'd take it. Swedish girls are hot. That said what are there 5 million people in Sweden? I doubt they're sending us 20 mill?

Hey BlackTerrel, maybe we should lobby for an Illegal Alien Influx from Latvia:

http://static.businessinsider.com/~~/f?id=317a6c79d196254a292c9900&maxX=369&maxY=277

[MelissaWV]

... and their little dogs, too.

[bobbyw24]

... and their little dogs, too.

Thanks for pointing them out--I seemed to have overlooked them

[MelissaWV]

I notice everything :D For instance, one of them is of dubious gender. Various of them are hot. The clothing is confusing; one of them is wearing what looks like an '80s prom dress and is sporting a side-ponytail. Also, the brunettes are in the back of the line, followed by the desperate men. The sky is also really, really blue.

[bobbyw24]

I notice everything :D For instance, one of them is of dubious gender. Various of them are hot. The clothing is confusing; one of them is wearing what looks like an '80s prom dress and is sporting a side-ponytail. Also, the brunettes are in the back of the line, followed by the desperate men. The sky is also really, really blue.

Ah-very observant. As for the foibles-years of Communist rule will do that to a nation