PDA

View Full Version : National Catholic Weekly Cheering for the Estate Tax?




AuH20
12-04-2009, 02:37 PM
I'm really starting to despise catholics. First, with the national healthcare endorsement and then dreck like this:

http://www.americamagazine.org/blog/entry.cfm?blog_id=2&id=19783536-3048-741E-3896416720941456


The estate tax, let’s call it the level playing field tax, represents a core American value. In America, it should matter more who you are than who your grandparents were. There are libertarian objections to an estate tax, of course, but in the Catholic social tradition, goods, even private goods, are always held in public trust. The estate tax reminds us of this core principle of our tradition. Yes, America is still the land of Horatio Alger mythology, but there is nothing in that myth about Horatio’s grandchildren.

FSP-Rebel
12-04-2009, 03:52 PM
While I still believe in Catholic traditions, this is hardly one of them.

TheTyke
12-04-2009, 04:09 PM
Yeah, I wouldn't assume all Catholics are like that... Tom Woods is Catholic, as am I.

The Church has been overrun by modernists, socialists etc. who use their positions of influence for their own ends. This is no different than any other institution with humans... even groups that should be good like the NRA and RTL have been subverted.

MelissaWV
12-04-2009, 04:14 PM
I'm really starting to despise catholics. First, with the national healthcare endorsement and then dreck like this:

http://www.americamagazine.org/blog/entry.cfm?blog_id=2&id=19783536-3048-741E-3896416720941456

Despite centralized "spokespeople" who decide to open their slobbering mouths on behalf of a group. Zealots and spokesfolk tend to put out statements without thinking, and though a lot of people may agree with it, a larger number will usually disagree at least in part.

I do believe that self-made riches are far more admirable than inherited ones, but I don't believe that one should automatically be stripped of everything coming from one's ancestors. Grandma/grandpa worked hard, and often they had specific reasons for leaving items/property/money to their kin. Lest we forget, most of those "big" wills also leave large sums to charity. Lastly, it is not cheap to die. If all of that property really belongs to the community, let's just dump people in a mass grave, save the expense, and make sure all of that money that would have been wasted on caskets and flowers goes to the "public good." Frankly, I wouldn't even mind opting to do that myself if I felt the "public good" would actually be served.

I prefer to give people the choice, and I don't think the Government should be in the business of punishing one choice so severely. You should be able to dole out your assets (and debts) to those left behind after your death. If they can't assume the debt, or don't want the asset, I suppose it could be re-gifted to charity or, barring that, absorbed back into the massive idiocy of the state.

I don't think most Catholics think that, when someone dies, their belongings should go to the Government. Then again, I also don't think most Catholics believe (once they know the particulars) in the healthcare bill, either.

Meatwasp
12-04-2009, 04:16 PM
Yeah, I wouldn't assume all Catholics are like that... Tom Woods is Catholic, as am I.

The Church has been overrun by modernists, socialists etc. who use their positions of influence for their own ends. This is no different than any other institution with humans... even groups that should be good like the NRA and RTL have been subverted.

Yep they sure have.

BlackTerrel
12-04-2009, 04:21 PM
I'm really starting to despise catholics. First, with the national healthcare endorsement and then dreck like this:

http://www.americamagazine.org/blog/entry.cfm?blog_id=2&id=19783536-3048-741E-3896416720941456

That's an idiotic statement. I doubt Catholics differ on these issues politically from Protestants (on average).

phill4paul
12-04-2009, 04:25 PM
WTF? These people were taxed when they made their fortunes, taxed when they bought their properties, taxed again every year that they owned it only to be taxed yet again when they bequeath it?
Perhaps more Catholics should let their leaders know that the 10% tithe gets smaller every time the government puts its hand into the till.

james1906
12-04-2009, 04:27 PM
WTF? These people were taxed when they made their fortunes, taxed when they bought their properties, taxed again every year that they owned it only to be taxed yet again when they bequeath it?
Perhaps more Catholics should let their leaders know that the 10% tithe gets smaller every time the government puts its hand into the till.

Yeah, it cuts into the silly hat and robe fund. They might have to abolish the pageantry and go back to the teachings of Christ.

phill4paul
12-04-2009, 04:34 PM
Yeah, it cuts into the silly hat and robe fund. They might have to abolish the pageantry and go back to the teachings of Christ.

I wasn't dogma or religion bashing. I stay out of those debates on RPFs these days. I was just saying that the church (whichever one) would profit from less government taxation.

NYgs23
12-04-2009, 06:39 PM
We Catholics aren't a Borg-like monolith. This magazine is a modernist Jesuit publication of no authority. The Jesuits, unfortunately, have degenerated into a squooshy-progressive embarrassment for orthodox Catholics everywhere. Per Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America_(magazine)):


America has carried a number of articles and opinion pieces taking positions contrary to Catholic Church teaching on matters such as homosexuality, priestly celibacy, AIDS, and the roles of women in the Church.[2][3] This has caused the magazine to come under increasing scrutiny by the Vatican; former editor Thomas J. Reese was forced to resign in May 2005 on the orders of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the Catholic administrative office which monitors and enforces adherence to Catholic dogma.[2] The directive reportedly came in mid-March of that year from Josef Ratzinger—the later Pope Benedict XVI—himself, who was the head of the CDF at the time.[2] The CDF had been monitoring America for at least four years and had at one point threatened to impose a committee of censors to review the magazine's content.



They might have to abolish the pageantry

Some of us like pageantry:

http://romancatholicblog.typepad.com/roman_catholic_blog/images/2007/07/24/tridentineelevation

Flash
12-04-2009, 07:00 PM
I can't think of an era where the catholic church 'had it right.' If there was this grand golden liberty-loving era of the Catholic church I would love to hear it.

NYgs23
12-04-2009, 07:24 PM
I can't think of an era where the catholic church 'had it right.'

The Catholic Church does "have it right," in my opinion. Catholic, on the other hand, including bishops and popes, have been just as human as anybody.


If there was this grand golden liberty-loving era of the Catholic church I would love to hear it.

How about from AD33-312, when Christians (Catholics) practiced nonviolent resistance against a tyrannical imperial state and were martyred for it?

What was the "grand golden liberty-loving era" of whatever your church/religion/lack-of-religion/theological bent is?

Flash
12-04-2009, 07:30 PM
The Catholic Church does "have it right," in my opinion. Catholic, on the other hand, including bishops and popes, have been just as human as anybody.

Exactly, so its stupid to support a spiritual organization which is only made up of humans.



How about from AD33-312, when Christians (Catholics) practiced nonviolent resistance against a tyrannical imperial state and were martyred for it?]

That doesn't have anything to do with liberty. Its just dying for your religious beliefs which many pagans, muslims, jews, etc.. have done over the ages. I fail to see how that makes the Catholic church a freedom organization. Infact I would argue Muslims throughout the ages fought and died for their beliefs moreso than Christians. It takes courage to conquer the entire Middle East, parts of Central Asia, & North Africa. Christians managed to take over Europe mostly by playing politics, and it was wise for Kings like King Clovis to become Christian and gain favor with the RCC.



What was the "grand golden liberty-loving era" of whatever your church/religion/lack-of-religion/theological bent is?

I don't believe in religion, but pre-Christian Europe and the civilizations of [non-christian] Rome & Greece seemed to embrace liberty more than the Medieval nations of Europe. And I would say the Protestant movement did more to secularize the Christian faith.

We Catholics aren't a Borg-like monolith.

Then why do you have a leader (Pope)? How can you not be a monolith yet have a very real hierarchal infrastructure? What would happen if a Cardinal came out and said the Pople was an asshole?

BlackTerrel
12-04-2009, 07:31 PM
We Catholics aren't a Borg-like monolith.

Wait are you saying Catholics have different opinions and don't march lock step with whatever "National Catholic Weekly" says?

I guess this is news to a couple posters on RPF.

BlackTerrel
12-04-2009, 07:34 PM
Exactly, so its stupid to support a spiritual organization which is only made up of humans.

When someone made a couple anti-Islam comments after Ft. Hood everyone jumped on him and he was banned 30 minutes later. I had no problem with that because it is idiotic to judge an entire religion based on the actions of one mad man.

But apparently it's ok to say "i despise catholics" because of one article in a Catholic paper. Are you kidding me?

Flash
12-04-2009, 07:43 PM
When someone made a couple anti-Islam comments after Ft. Hood everyone jumped on him and he was banned 30 minutes later. I had no problem with that because it is idiotic to judge an entire religion based on the actions of one mad man.

But apparently it's ok to say "i despise catholics" because of one article in a Catholic paper. Are you kidding me?

It isn't about attacking Catholics or Muslims personally. But what is the point of supporting a religion if it's only made up of humans and the poster admitted all humans are flawed? Wouldn't it make more sense to skip the human element? And why is catholicism NOT a monolithic organization when a high-ranking catholic can't freely bash the pope? I'm just asking the questions.

I don't think attacking religious organizations should be off-limits. Especially when they are anti-liberty and pro-insanity (http://www.condomman.com/articles/condom-use/catholic-church-condom-ban-in-latin-america/). Its like saying we shouldn't attack Kim Jon Il because technically he is a deity in a North Korean religion.

Why attack government and not religion?

AuH20
12-04-2009, 07:51 PM
I see many similarities between the Catholic Church hierarchy and our government. Both are corrupt to the core and have strayed far away from the teachings that gave them any legitimacy. Just look at the pedophilia cases which are concealed, the schmoozing with political leaders, the daily hypocrisy. If you look at the church structure in the middle ages and compare it to today, it hasn't changed very much.

NYgs23
12-04-2009, 08:02 PM
Exactly, so its stupid to support a spiritual organization which is only made up of humans.

It's made up of humans, but it is guided and protected by the will of God. If you don't understand our beliefs about how the Church, like Christ, is both human and divine, don't talk as though you do.


That doesn't have anything to do with liberty. Its just dying for your religious beliefs which many pagans, muslims, jews, etc.. have done over the ages. I fail to see how that makes the Catholic church a freedom organization.

For centuries, Christians, following Christ, were essentially pacifistic. Says St. Clement of Alexandria (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/clement-fragments.html):


Above all, Christians are not allowed to correct with violence the delinquencies of sins. For it is not those that abstain from wickedness from compulsion, but those that abstain from choice, that God crowns. It is impossible for a man to be steadily good except by his own choice. For he that is made good by compulsion of another is not good; for he is not what he is by his own choice. For it is the freedom of each one that makes true goodness and reveals real wickedness. Whence through these dispositions God contrived to make His own disposition manifest.


I don't believe in religion, but pre-Christian Europe and the civilizations of [non-christian] Rome & Greece seemed to embrace liberty more than the Medieval nations of Europe.

You don't understand history, IMO. The ancient order was an order of absolute, authoritarian ruled by god-kings, etc. The Middle Ages had huge problems of its own with aggression, but at least power was relatively decentralized and fluid. The modern market economy, the concept of natural law, and common law rights developed in this era. It's impossible to quantify these things but I would say that the Medieval order, very broadly and generally, was less aggressive than what came before (the Roman Empire) and what came after (absolute monarchies of the early modern period).



And I would say the Protestant movement did more to secularize religion.

You mean the separation of Church and State? In fact, it was Catholicism that first partially separated them. In pagan times, religion was entirely statist, with the Emperor as Pontifex Maximus. In Medieval Christendom, the Church was a separate center of power from the State, intertwined with it, but also distinct. The would often compete with each other, as when the Holy Roman Emperor, Henry IV, for engaging in statist meddling in Church affairs was excommunicated and forced to stand in the snow outside the pope's castle for three days, begging him to rescind the sentence (for an excommunicated monarch could not count on the support of his vassals).

Then when Protestantism came along, it hurriedly reconnected Church and State completely. See Henry VIII and Anglicanism, for example.


Then why do you have a leader (Pope)?

Why does a baseball team have a manager? Why does a club have a president? Are libertarians to be against voluntary authority, in addition to the coercive sort? The pope and the bishops instruct, and there are some doctrines that are beyond question for a faithful Catholic. But if you think that every question, even about religious belief and practice, has been infallibly declared by the hierarchs, you just don't understand Catholicism.


What would happen if a Cardinal came out and said the Pople was an asshole, please answer me this.

I'm not sure, but I suspect it would be similar if an employee said such a thing about his boss. Should we oppose employment contracts for being "hierarchical"?

NYgs23
12-04-2009, 08:12 PM
When someone made a couple anti-Islam comments after Ft. Hood everyone jumped on him and he was banned 30 minutes later. I had no problem with that because it is idiotic to judge an entire religion based on the actions of one mad man.

But apparently it's ok to say "i despise catholics" because of one article in a Catholic paper. Are you kidding me?

Don't worry. We're used to the fact that most people blindly accept the cartoon caricature of the Catholic Church they get from the media and Hollyweird, including those around here who you are supposed to be skeptical of those institutions.

The Church is managed by flawed humans who often do stupid and immoral things. No one has ever said differently. The point is that the essential doctrines and the sacraments are protected by the intervention of the Holy Ghost. In my belief, it's a wonderful thing that God could provide us with the miraculous gifts of the sacraments even using flawed and fallen human beings as His implements.

BlackTerrel
12-04-2009, 09:19 PM
It isn't about attacking Catholics or Muslims personally.

The first sentence in the Original post is "I'm really starting to despise catholics." (Not capitalized).

Not "I have a problem with the Church structure or hierarchy". No. "I despise Catholics". How is that possibly ok for a group of people that oppose collectivism?

When someone criticized Muslims they were attacked and banned. And how many posts did we have worrying that Muslims would be judged harshly due to Fort Hood?

But some Catholic publication takes a stance that some people here don't agree with and it's open season - what the fuck?

familydog
12-04-2009, 09:30 PM
I'm really starting to despise catholics.

The lack of intelligence and reason in this statement is quite humorous and disturbing at the same time.

I didn't realize I was on Hannity's forum. What with all the intolerence and misguided hatred and all.

Anti Federalist
12-04-2009, 10:15 PM
I'm really starting to despise catholics. First, with the national healthcare endorsement and then dreck like this:

The estate tax, let’s call it the level playing field tax, represents a core American value. In America, it should matter more who you are than who your grandparents were. There are libertarian objections to an estate tax, of course, but in the Catholic social tradition, goods, even private goods, are always held in public trust. The estate tax reminds us of this core principle of our tradition. Yes, America is still the land of Horatio Alger mythology, but there is nothing in that myth about Horatio’s grandchildren.

http://www.americamagazine.org/blog/entry.cfm?blog_id=2&id=19783536-3048-741E-3896416720941456

Great mountains of moose shit...

Maybe the Holy See ought to start with themselves and divest, oh, I dunno, let's say 20 percent of the church's combined assets every time a pope dies.

james1906
12-05-2009, 02:25 PM
Some of us like pageantry:

http://romancatholicblog.typepad.com/roman_catholic_blog/images/2007/07/24/tridentineelevation

Yes, because opulence was the cornerstone of Jesus' teachings.

NYgs23
12-05-2009, 03:14 PM
Maybe the Holy See ought to start with themselves and divest, oh, I dunno, let's say 20 percent of the church's combined assets every time a pope dies.

I'm going to say this one more time: an opinion piece in a magazine is not authoritative Church doctrine. That's like equating the personal blog of a DMV clerk with the United States Code.

NYgs23
12-05-2009, 03:16 PM
Yes, because opulence was the cornerstone of Jesus' teachings.

When he was in Bethany reclining at table in the house of Simon the leper, a woman came with an alabaster jar of perfumed oil, costly genuine spikenard. She broke the alabaster jar and poured it on his head. There were some who were indignant. "Why has there been this waste of perfumed oil? It could have been sold for more than three hundred days' wages and the money given to the poor." They were infuriated with her. Jesus said, "Let her alone. Why do you make trouble for her? She has done a good thing for me. The poor you will always have with you, and whenever you wish you can do good to them, but you will not always have me.

Mark 14:3-7

angelatc
12-05-2009, 03:17 PM
Some of us like pageantry:

http://romancatholicblog.typepad.com/roman_catholic_blog/images/2007/07/24/tridentineelevation

The pageantry is what calls to me from the Catholic Church. My husband quit going to church after Vatican II.

NYgs23
12-05-2009, 03:25 PM
The pageantry is what calls to me from the Catholic Church. My husband quit going to church after Vatican II.

So you didn't like the pre-Vatican II "smells and bells," but your husband did. Some people seem to feel that that stuff distracts them from their personal relationship of God. But for some of us, who perhaps don't so easily feel His presence much of time, these "trappings" and rituals are a support. They help us enter into a prayerful and spiritual mood.

Anti Federalist
12-05-2009, 04:20 PM
I'm going to say this one more time: an opinion piece in a magazine is not authoritative Church doctrine. That's like equating the personal blog of a DMV clerk with the United States Code.

I'm sorry but, I'm not on board, not with the Pope saying things like this:



Pope calls for a "global authority" on economy

Philip Pullella
VATICAN CITY
Tue Jul 7, 2009 3:25pm EDT

Pope Benedict called on Tuesday for a "world political authority" to manage the global economy and for more government regulation of national economies

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE5662VM20090707?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0

BlackTerrel
12-05-2009, 05:26 PM
I'm sorry but, I'm not on board, not with the Pope saying things like this:

Why are we attacking the Catholic religion and people? Is this a thread to talk about how terrible Catholics are?

Can you disagree with the Pope without saying "I despise Catholics"? Any other religion and this user would be banned and the thread moved to hot topics.

MelissaWV
12-05-2009, 05:41 PM
Why are we attacking the Catholic religion and people? Is this a thread to talk about how terrible Catholics are?

Can you disagree with the Pope without saying "I despise Catholics"? Any other religion and this user would be banned and the thread moved to hot topics.

I don't think that far, but it seems more like a "Religion" thread at this point.

BlackTerrel
12-05-2009, 06:00 PM
I don't think that far, but it seems more like a "Religion" thread at this point.

Really? You think if someone started a thread and the first sentence was "I'm really starting to despise Muslims" it would still be here?

But Catholics is ok.

MelissaWV
12-05-2009, 06:06 PM
Really? You think if someone started a thread and the first sentence was "I'm really starting to despise Muslims" it would still be here?

But Catholics is ok.

Catholicism is very SLIGHTLY different, in that there is an alleged central authority. There isn't a direct, single, concentrated Muslim authority figure who releases statements along these lines.

I've already said my peace about this all, though, and am in agreement it's a faulty and rude premise to decide that the quoted sentiment represents all Catholics. I think that since this has devolved into religion-bashing (and not even Catholic-bashing, really; it's more just "people who believe in God are silly" again) it should at least be in "Religion" but that's not my call.

NYgs23
12-05-2009, 06:06 PM
I'm sorry but, I'm not on board, not with the Pope saying things like this:




http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE5662VM20090707?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0

I found that quite irritating myself, but you oughtn't rely on Reuters or other MSM outlets for your information on it. It's more complicated than what they're trying to portray in that article.

Here are three very different takes on that encyclical by pro-market Catholics:

Fr. Robert Sirico (http://blog.acton.org/archives/11162-caritas-in-veritate-the-pope-on-love-in-truth.html)
Tom Woods (http://www.takimag.com/site/article/truth_charity/)
George Weigel (http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NTdkYjU3MDE2YTdhZTE4NWIyN2FkY2U5YTFkM2ZiMmE=) (neocon, but that's beside the point here)

But, in any case, what does Pope Benedict's encyclical have to do with the death tax? It said nothing about it.

KCIndy
12-05-2009, 06:19 PM
WHOA!!

Slow down, people.

If I may suggest, you're not seeing the forest for the trees, so to speak.

Consider this: I'm guessing almost ANY large institutional organization, from the ACLU to the NRA to the AARP to any number of religious organizations are ALL going to be backing higher estate taxes.

Why, you ask?

Simple. It's self-serving.

I'm guessing, here, but I'm betting I'm right. I'll bet that if you have some sort of estate holdings, the holdings will not be hit by estate taxes if you leave your estate to a charitable or non-profit organization!

Therefore, almost any big charity or non-profit will stand to benefit from higher estate taxes because it makes it much easier to talk people into gifting over their estates posthumously.

As always, it's all about following the money.

Theocrat
12-05-2009, 06:27 PM
I'm really starting to despise catholics. First, with the national healthcare endorsement and then dreck like this:

http://www.americamagazine.org/blog/entry.cfm?blog_id=2&id=19783536-3048-741E-3896416720941456

Here's where we behold the Biblical ignorance of such in the Roman Catholic tradition. Because they largely do not use God's word as the foundation for truth in all of their thinking, they come up short in many issues, such as the one in this thread.

For starters, the Bible teaches that it is a blessing to have an inheritance. As a matter of fact, the State is to have no jurisdiction over how much a person leaves to his children. We find the following in these passages of Scripture:

The LORD knoweth the days of the upright, and their inheritance shall be for ever. (Psalm 37:18)
He cast out the heathen also before them, and divided them an inheritance by line, and made the tribes of Israel to dwell in their tents. (Psalm 78:55)
A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children, and the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just. (Proverbs 13:22)
House and riches are the inheritance of fathers, and a prudent wife is from the LORD. (Proverbs 19:14)
Wisdom is good with an inheritance, and by it there is profit to them that see the sun. (Ecclesiastes 7:11)

Therefore, for the State to come in and steal from a family's inheritance by taxation (whatever name they call it) is sinful. The fact that many in the Roman Catholic tradition cannot see that is the reason why their church is falling all the more in the affairs of men.

NYgs23
12-05-2009, 06:49 PM
I'm guessing almost ANY large institutional organization, from the ACLU to the NRA to the AARP to any number of religious organizations are ALL going to be backing higher estate taxes....As always, it's all about following the money.


Here's where we behold the Biblical ignorance of such in the Roman Catholic tradition. Because they largely do not use God's word as the foundation for truth in all of their thinking, they come up short in many issues, such as the one in this thread.

You know, I can no longer be delicate about this: how STUPID are all of you people that you think a blog post by some guy on some magazine's website represents Catholic dogma???? Clearly, you fools aren't bothering to think about this for even two seconds. You simply glance over the words "Catholic" and "estate tax," and your prejudice-addled minds immediately think "there the Catholics go again." Because we're all the same, right? We're all mind-controlled by the Pope, right? Perhaps you think every word any Catholic says about anything is supposed to be an infallible proclamation according to the Church? Well, in that case, I infallibly proclaim that you're all morons.

Theocrat
12-05-2009, 07:04 PM
You know, I can no longer be delicate about this: how STUPID are all of you people that you think a blog post by some guy on some magazine's website represents Catholic dogma???? Clearly, you fools aren't bothering to think about this for even two seconds. You simply glance over the words "Catholic" and "estate tax," and your prejudice-addled minds immediately think "there the Catholics go again." Because we're all the same, right? We're all mind-controlled by the Pope, right? Perhaps you think every word any Catholic says about anything is supposed to be an infallible proclamation according to the Church? Well, in that case, I infallibly proclaim that you're all morons.

Knowing the history of Roman Catholicism and its present state of hardly appealing to Holy Scripture for truth about any issue and seeking to diverge to its own traditions, I feel that my post gives a pretty accurate description of how most Roman Catholics would handle such issues as the estate tax. Never in my post did I say that ALL Roman Catholics believe as the author of that blog did about estate taxes, mind you.

However, looking at your own posts in this thread, NYgs23, with the perception that you are a Roman Catholic brother-in-Christ, it's easy to see that you yourself have made no appeal to the Bible as a refutation for why that Roman Catholic blogger is wrong about the estate tax. I would be very interested to hear your official position on the estate tax, especially if it's not in accordance with that Roman Catholic blogger (or the Roman Church, for that matter).

NYgs23
12-05-2009, 07:21 PM
Knowing the history of Roman Catholicism and its present state of hardly appealing to Holy Scripture for truth about any issue and seeking to diverge to its own traditions, I feel that my post gives a pretty accurate description of how most Roman Catholics would handle such issues as the estate tax. Never in my post did I say that ALL Roman Catholics believe as the author of that blog did about estate taxes, mind you.

However, looking at your own posts in this thread, NYgs23, with the perception that you are a Roman Catholic brother-in-Christ, it's easy to see that you yourself have made no appeal to the Bible as a refutation for why that Roman Catholic blogger is wrong about the estate tax. I would be very interested to hear your official position on the estate tax, especially if it's not in accordance with that Roman Catholic blogger (or the Roman Church, for that matter).

I'm not going to get into a debate with you about the Catholic Church's interpretation of Scripture; I just don't see why you would use this individual's opinion piece to draw an inference about Catholic teaching or anything other than that individual's personal opinion. I oppose the estate tax because it's coercive. I would oppose it for that reason even if the Bible said nothing about inheritance, but thanks for pointing out scriptural support for inheritance being morally licit. There is no official Catholic teaching on the estate tax, specifically.

Anti Federalist
12-05-2009, 07:30 PM
Why are we attacking the Catholic religion and people? Is this a thread to talk about how terrible Catholics are?

Can you disagree with the Pope without saying "I despise Catholics"? Any other religion and this user would be banned and the thread moved to hot topics.

I never said "I Despise Catholics".

That was a quote from the OP, not me.

That being said, based on what the Pope has to say, I despise the institution, without a doubt.

Anti Federalist
12-05-2009, 08:01 PM
I found that quite irritating myself, but you oughtn't rely on Reuters or other MSM outlets for your information on it. It's more complicated than what they're trying to portray in that article.

Here are three very different takes on that encyclical by pro-market Catholics:

Fr. Robert Sirico (http://blog.acton.org/archives/11162-caritas-in-veritate-the-pope-on-love-in-truth.html)
Tom Woods (http://www.takimag.com/site/article/truth_charity/)
George Weigel (http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NTdkYjU3MDE2YTdhZTE4NWIyN2FkY2U5YTFkM2ZiMmE=) (neocon, but that's beside the point here)

But, in any case, what does Pope Benedict's encyclical have to do with the death tax? It said nothing about it.

The quote is the quote, regardless of source, I trust the MSM that far, though not any farther.

A world political government is required to regulate nations and economies. Pretty straightforward, I thought.

Moving on:



The just ordering of society and the State is a central responsibility of politics. As Augustine once said, a State which is not governed according to justice would be just a bunch of thieves: “Remota itaque iustitia quid sunt regna nisi magna latrocinia?”.[18] Fundamental to Christianity is the distinction between what belongs to Caesar and what belongs to God (cf. Mt 22:21), in other words, the distinction between Church and State, or, as the Second Vatican Council puts it, the autonomy of the temporal sphere.[19] The State may not impose religion, yet it must guarantee religious freedom and harmony between the followers of different religions. For her part, the Church, as the social expression of Christian faith, has a proper independence and is structured on the basis of her faith as a community which the State must recognize. The two spheres are distinct, yet always interrelated.

Justice is both the aim and the intrinsic criterion of all politics. Politics is more than a mere mechanism for defining the rules of public life: its origin and its goal are found in justice, which by its very nature has to do with ethics.

Building a just social and civil order, wherein each person receives what is his or her due, is an essential task which every generation must take up anew. As a political task, this cannot be the Church's immediate responsibility. Yet, since it is also a most important human responsibility, the Church is duty-bound to offer, through the purification of reason and through ethical formation, her own specific contribution towards understanding the requirements of justice and achieving them politically


ENCYCLICAL LETTER
DEUS CARITAS EST
OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF
BENEDICT XVI

25 Dec. 2005


Pope Benedict just recently put out his new encyclical, “God is Love.” And in his encyclical, he quoted Saint Augustine when he wrote, this is in the Pope’s encyclical. You can find it there. He talked about the role that politicians have and that a government should be just, and we should be promoting justice. And he goes on, Pope Benedict does, to quote Saint Augustine. He says: “A state that is not governed according to justice would be just a bunch of thieves.” This is the Pope saying this in an encyclical, quoting a saint. “A state which is not governed according to justice would be just a bunch of thieves.”

I ask this Congress, is it justice to steal from the middle class to give tax cuts to the ultra-superrich?

It is not just. And it is an injustice we cannot afford. Americans can no longer afford President Bush and the Republicans. It is time for a new direction. We can begin by rejecting this estate tax giveaway to the wealthy and insist on a vote to increase the minimum wage. That would be a real values judgment.

Nancy Pelosi - 22 June 2006

The Pope and Pelosi are both unaware of the concept that ALL taxation is theft.

AuH20
12-05-2009, 10:46 PM
You know, I can no longer be delicate about this: how STUPID are all of you people that you think a blog post by some guy on some magazine's website represents Catholic dogma???? Clearly, you fools aren't bothering to think about this for even two seconds. You simply glance over the words "Catholic" and "estate tax," and your prejudice-addled minds immediately think "there the Catholics go again." Because we're all the same, right? We're all mind-controlled by the Pope, right? Perhaps you think every word any Catholic says about anything is supposed to be an infallible proclamation according to the Church? Well, in that case, I infallibly proclaim that you're all morons.

My own family members are Catholic and they are on the verge of leaving the church altogether. It's more about the church leadership as opposed to the doctrine.

NYgs23
12-06-2009, 12:22 AM
The quote is the quote, regardless of source, I trust the MSM that far, though not any farther.

I know what it is, and I disagree with it. But it doesn't cause me to "despise" the whole institution. You're implication throughout this thread seems to be that Catholicism is inherently statist and pro-central-planning. It is not.


The Pope and Pelosi are both unaware of the concept that ALL taxation is theft.

You're equating the Pope talking about the separation of Church and State with Pelosi praising taxes? Well, since Pelosi's such a devout and faithful Catholic *cough* I'm sure she's an authority on papal encyclicals.

Yet there is no Catholic doctrine compelling us to support taxes or any state action or any coercive state whatsoever.

FSP-Rebel
12-06-2009, 12:58 AM
Eww, Pelosi is a Catholic? Yet another blow against against us.. I consider myself a libertarian first and foremost.

NYgs23
12-06-2009, 12:28 PM
Eww, Pelosi is a Catholic?

Only in the broadest sense of the term possible.

andrewh817
12-06-2009, 02:05 PM
When someone says they support a tax what they're really saying is they support the use of force against you if you don't want to give up more of your hard-earned money.

BlackTerrel
12-06-2009, 10:26 PM
You know, I can no longer be delicate about this: how STUPID are all of you people that you think a blog post by some guy on some magazine's website represents Catholic dogma???? Clearly, you fools aren't bothering to think about this for even two seconds. You simply glance over the words "Catholic" and "estate tax," and your prejudice-addled minds immediately think "there the Catholics go again." Because we're all the same, right? We're all mind-controlled by the Pope, right? Perhaps you think every word any Catholic says about anything is supposed to be an infallible proclamation according to the Church? Well, in that case, I infallibly proclaim that you're all morons.

It is fucking absurd. Let's be honest here, Catholics on average are probably pretty similar to Protestants on these issues. Some support, some oppose, some don't give a fuck. But let's just go ahead and blame the Catholics for all of it :rolleyes:

BlackTerrel
12-06-2009, 10:28 PM
I never said "I Despise Catholics".

That was a quote from the OP, not me.

That being said, based on what the Pope has to say, I despise the institution, without a doubt.

I wasn't specifically referring to you. The fact remains this thread is still here despite the fact that the first sentence is "I despise Catholics" and instead of attacking the OP half the people are piling on. Very different from that thread when someone criticized Muslims after Ft. Hood.

kahless
12-06-2009, 10:38 PM
I'm really starting to despise catholics.

I am Catholic and do not hold that belief nor does any Catholic that I know. But because of one opinion piece the OP despises all Catholics. :rolleyes:

Thankfully his view does not represents the majority of Ron Paul supporters. However the minority of supporters that are rabid conspiracy theorists and intolerants are consistently detrimental to this movement. Hopefully the continual damage as demonstrated in these forums will not elect neocon Republicans in 2010 or Guiliani in 2012.

Liberty Star
12-06-2009, 11:34 PM
I'm really starting to despise catholics.

On the surface, that seems like a collectivist view, might be seen as bigoted view by our Catholic brethren.

Would it be ok if someone made same statement replacing "catholics" with protestants, jews, blacks, whites or another group as a whole because of what some publication said?

AuH20
12-06-2009, 11:44 PM
On the surface, that seems like a collectivist view, might be seen as bigoted view by our Catholic brethren.

Until Catholics organize together and tell their shepherds to knock it off, my comments aren't that far off. Second of all, this forum is far too hyper-sensitive whether it's any ethnic or religious group. Jews, muslims, catholics, born again christians, atheists.....................I'm sure we could all find negative characteristics which on average would be deemed true, but would nevertheless irritate the members of their aforementioned groups. So regarding my comment, I'm really starting to despise catholics, when they don't tell their spiritual representatives to go jump in the lake. ;) Unless they agree with this foolishness, which is always possible.

Liberty Star
12-06-2009, 11:48 PM
So you will suport whole world "despising" all of us because of what Bush/Cheney or some other bad leaders did?

How far your collectivism go.



Catholics have produced some of the most beautiful people in the world.

http://www.catholicreview.org/subpages/selectedstory.aspx?action=7297

AuH20
12-06-2009, 11:51 PM
So you will suport whole world "despising" all of us because of what Bush/Cheney or some other bad leaders did?

How far your colletivism go.

Actually you're right. We surrendered away our freedoms. We dumbed down our children. We abdicated responsibility. We're responsible for Bush/Cheney as well as the Obamanation.

nbhadja
12-07-2009, 12:20 AM
I'm sorry but, I'm not on board, not with the Pope saying things like this:




http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE5662VM20090707?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0

+1

The pope has been a puppet to the globalist for quite sometime.

The pope and the leaders of that religion manipulate the followers of Catholicism with the "global authority" crap. It is not the first time the pope has said something like that.

Liberty Star
12-07-2009, 12:27 AM
+1

The pope has been a puppet to the globalist for quite sometime.

The pope and the leaders of that religion manipulate the followers of Catholicism with the "global authority" crap. It is not the first time the pope has said something like that.

Last pope was pretty cool, he stood against some of our evangelicals who wrote notorious Land letter to Bush, our eceonomy could have avoided this crisis had Bush followed his moral advice:


Pope: Iraq War "has no moral justification"

Pope: Iraq War "has no moral justification"; Says Decision Should have been Made by UN. Here is what Pope Benedict really thinks of Bush and ...
www.juancole.com/2008/.../pope-iraq-war-has-no-moral.html

kahless
12-07-2009, 12:28 AM
Taking the opinion of a contributor to one magazine as a reason to despite all Catholics seems pretty clear the OP just wanted a chance to spew his hate against Catholics.

btw - Dick Cheney and Bush are both Methodists.

Liberty Star
12-07-2009, 12:32 AM
Taking the opinion of a contributor to one magazine as a reason to despite all Catholics seems pretty clear the OP just wanted a chance to spew his hate against Catholics.

Article Author: Michael Sean Winters
Article disclaimer below article: * The opinions expressed here are those of our contributors, and do not necessarily reflect the editorial opinion of America magazine.

btw - Dick Cheney and Bush are both Methodists.

Are you serious? So is Hillary Clinton.

So bizzare that three of the top recent fools are from same sect. To be fair, there is many moderate methodists who spoke against their violent ideas.

kahless
12-07-2009, 12:42 AM
Are you serious? So is Hillary Clinton.

So bizzare that three of the top recent fools are from same sect. To be fair, there is many moderate methodists who spoke against their violent ideas.

Yes and if we were to thinking along the lines of the OP then we should probably despise all Methodists. :rolleyes:

BlackTerrel
12-07-2009, 09:04 PM
Taking the opinion of a contributor to one magazine as a reason to despite all Catholics seems pretty clear the OP just wanted a chance to spew his hate against Catholics.

btw - Dick Cheney and Bush are both Methodists.

Pretty much.


Are you serious? So is Hillary Clinton.

So bizzare that three of the top recent fools are from same sect. To be fair, there is many moderate methodists who spoke against their violent ideas.

Who gives a shit. And for the record Bush II converted when he married his wife. He was raised Episcopalian, as was his dad.