CFL Regional Conference - Atlanta - Ron Paul (Jan 15-17 2010!)

[Matt Collins]

On January 15-17, 2010, hundreds of Campaign for Liberty members will join Ron Paul and several special guests at the Sheraton Hotel in Atlanta, Georgia to show the establishment politicians and talking heads that we have had enough of their spending, regulations, interventions, and other dead-end policies.

Our Atlanta Regional Conference will be dedicated to kicking off a new year of action and ushering in A New Decade of Liberty!

Big government bureaucrats have had their way for far too long, and the results speak for themselves.

A $12 trillion national debt. Almost an additional $12 trillion in bailouts and loans. Troops stretched all around the world in over 170 countries. And a national health care takeover nightmare that threatens you with a fine and even possible jail time if you don’t have a government-approved plan.

We have the message. We have the movement. We have the motivation. And we have never been so strong.

If we stick together and stay the course, this is the decade we can turn back the tide and reclaim our Republic.

Our Campaign for Liberty Atlanta Regional Conference will:

* Strengthen your understanding of history and foundational principles necessary to maintain liberty.
* Teach you how to persuasively communicate our movement's mission and message.
* Train you in how to recruit, equip, and mobilize an army of informed citizens and build the organizational structure necessary to win.
* Help you master the political process on the local, state, and national levels.

Spend time with fellow liberty-minded activists, learn about history and current events from a freedom perspective you won't hear from the mainstream media, build your local organizations, and get ready to reclaim our country with top-notch training from seasoned experts.

Tickets for our grassroots training sessions are available for their lowest price ever – just $65! Seats are sure to fill up fast as more details are released, so reserve your spot today by signing up at our Atlanta Regional Conference event page.

Regional Conference attendees can book their rooms at the Sheraton Atlanta for the C4L special rate of $109.00 for a single/double and $119.00 for a triple/quad. You must make your reservations by Wednesday, December 30 to get our special conference rate. Reservations made after December 30 will be accepted at the Hotel's prevailing rate and based on room type availability.

This January, let’s show our country that legitimate change is finally on its way.

For more information visit the site:
http://www.campaignforliberty.com/event/2010atlanta.php

[dr. hfn]

these conferences are EPIC

[Matt Collins]

these conferences are EPICYes at the St Louis conf a bunch of individuals were in the lobby of the hotel drunkenly yelling "F-The Fed" at the top of their lungs at 2am :p


But those individuals shall remain nameless ;)

[LittleLightShining]

Where you go and learn how to take over the GOP. Ought to be interesting for you, Matt...

[Matt Collins]

Where you go and learn how to take over the GOP. Ought to be interesting for you, Matt...
They should sign me up to teach a class! ;):p

[Matt Collins]

There is a less expensive hotel across the street from the Sheraton, Baymont Inns and Suites, with rooms for $71/night +tax. If you are interested in potentially doing a group buy to get a lower rate in the secondary hotel, please contact jeremybdahl@gmail.com

[Indy Vidual]

Decent weather, wish I could afford to get away.

[LittleLightShining]

They should sign me up to teach a class! ;):p
They already have a guy that does that. What's a shame is he doesn't believe in our principles.

[speciallyblend]

They already have a guy that does that. What's a shame is he doesn't believe in our principles.

hmmm, no one has to be 100% in agreement in the ron paul movement. the whole uniting factor for the movement was the fact we can disagree on issues but not use the government to legislate against anothers opinion. this is another reason why the republican party is not growing, gay marriage, marijuana legalization and the failed drug war. these are issues left,right,center and up and down can disagree on but under a ron paul platform are not issues for the federal government.

I do not agree 100% with Ron Paul but he is who i support. This is where the ron paul movement needs to address reality. the main sticking points for a ron paul supporter that is cut and dry is the foreign policy for sure and economic issues,but the gop has no credibility on economic issues/or wars. when the gop is the one that helped create the mass of the government(examples the drug war, the undeclared wars under bush and the expansion of government under republicans).
like i have said before the problem with the gop is not obama or his politics. it is the republican party that has the problem and they try to deflect their unethical/corrupt gop leadership by yappin oooo obama every 10 seconds.

the gop has serious issues and they have yet to even come close to address them. i wouldn't lay blame with a cfl supporter but with the gop leadership themselves or lack of.

the only people to blame is the gop leadership for having deaf ears,blind eyes and lack of uniting issues with voters(gop is out of touch with many republicans and voters). obama may not be an option to many republican voters but what the gop is selling is not even an option(YET) even if the dems are running. i do not see the gop in colorado fillling the political vacuum. i suspect some republicans will win depending on districts,but i suspect alot of republicans will be removed from office by 3rd party candidates or dems or even ron paul dems and ron paul republicans that were alienated by the gop.

oo well if the gop keeps ignoring the ron paul platform. i will bet the gop will be the whigs of history in 2010/2012.I plan to hold gop leadership and republicans supporting this failed leadership accountable with my vote and my familys and friends.

[LittleLightShining]

hmmm, no one has to be 100% in agreement in the ron paul movement. the whole uniting factor for the movement was the fact we can disagree on issues but not use the government to legislate against anothers opinion. this is another reason why the republican party is not growing, gay marriage, marijuana legalization and the failed drug war. these are issues left,right,center and up and down can disagree on but under a ron paul platform are not issues for the federal government.

I do not agree 100% with Ron Paul but he is who i support. This is where the ron paul movement needs to address reality. the main sticking points for a ron paul supporter that is cut and dry is the foreign policy for sure and economic issues,but the gop has no credibility on economic issues/or wars. when the gop is the one that helped create the mass of the government(examples the drug war, the undeclared wars under bush and the expansion of government under republicans).
like i have said before the problem with the gop is not obama or his politics. it is the republican party that has the problem and they try to deflect their unethical/corrupt gop leadership by yappin oooo obama every 10 seconds.

the gop has serious issues and they have yet to even come close to address them. i wouldn't lay blame with a cfl supporter but with the gop leadership themselves or lack of.

the only people to blame is the gop leadership for having deaf ears,blind eyes and lack of uniting issues with voters(gop is out of touch with many republicans and voters). obama may not be an option to many republican voters but what the gop is selling is not even an option(YET) even if the dems are running. i do not see the gop in colorado fillling the political vacuum. i suspect some republicans will win depending on districts,but i suspect alot of republicans will be removed from office by 3rd party candidates or dems or even ron paul dems and ron paul republicans that were alienated by the gop.

oo well if the gop keeps ignoring the ron paul platform. i will bet the gop will be the whigs of history in 2010/2012.I plan to hold gop leadership and republicans supporting this failed leadership accountable with my vote and my familys and friends.How do you feel about money from the C4L going to a guy to teach C4Lers about infiltrating the GOP who DOES NOT agree with the non-intervenionist foreign policy plank of the C4L statement of principles?

[Matt Collins]

They already have a guy that does that. What's a shame is he doesn't believe in our principles.

How do you feel about money from the C4L going to a guy to teach C4Lers about infiltrating the GOP who DOES NOT agree with the non-intervenionist foreign policy plank of the C4L statement of principles?
Campaign tactics are the same whether you are Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, etc. Do you think your algebra teacher must agree with your political philosophy?


Personally I'd love to learn political strategy from James Carville and Karl Rove even though philosophically I disagree with them.

And the honest truth is that there are VERY few successful political strategists that a liberty leaning. We haven't had much success in a while.

[Matt Collins]

Decent weather, wish I could afford to get away.Decent weather in Atlanta during January ?!?! :confused::rolleyes:

You've obviously never been there.

[Matt Collins]

Bump. Who is going?

[LittleLightShining]

Campaign tactics are the same whether you are Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, etc. Do you think your algebra teacher must agree with your political philosophy?


Personally I'd love to learn political strategy from James Carville and Karl Rove even though philosophically I disagree with them.

And the honest truth is that there are VERY few successful political strategists that a liberty leaning. We haven't had much success in a while.
Your talking points are awfully familiar. Seems I've heard them from someone else relatively recently. I do need to agree with my algebra teacher, my mechanic and my dancing school instructor in their areas of expertise. I would not go to algebra class expecting to be taught geometry. I would not take my Volvo to the Chevy dealership. I would not expect my tap dancing teacher to have mastered ballet. Of course there are people who can be really good at working on Volvo's and Chevy's and etc but I'd rather have my rig worked on by someone who understands MY car, not just cars in general.

That's just me. I don't want to compromise on principle. And as for C4L, which started out as an organization which had, as part of its core mission EDUCATION, I really don't want to hear about how educating people doesn't matter.

You can't really complain about the system and then expect to change it by doing what everyone else is doing. I prefer to take my cues from a consistent, principled man of integrity. A successful Republican congressman who doesn't do things the way everyone else does them and somehow keeps plugging away, building momentum, gaining devoted grassroots support and msm validation every day. (Have we forgotten him already?) Not because he jumps from issue to issue, flavor of the month money making opportunity or because he knows from experience how to run a slimy spoiler campaign like this supposed strategical genius Michael I. Rothfeld...

*sigh*

I don't know why you refuse to see what's going on...

[paulpwns]

Who is the person in question that is teaching?

[LibertyEagle]

Your talking points are awfully familiar. Seems I've heard them from someone else relatively recently. I do need to agree with my algebra teacher, my mechanic and my dancing school instructor in their areas of expertise. I would not go to algebra class expecting to be taught geometry. I would not take my Volvo to the Chevy dealership. I would not expect my tap dancing teacher to have mastered ballet. Of course there are people who can be really good at working on Volvo's and Chevy's and etc but I'd rather have my rig worked on by someone who understands MY car, not just cars in general.

That's just me. I don't want to compromise on principle. And as for C4L, which started out as an organization which had, as part of its core mission EDUCATION, I really don't want to hear about how educating people doesn't matter.

You can't really complain about the system and then expect to change it by doing what everyone else is doing. I prefer to take my cues from a consistent, principled man of integrity. A successful Republican congressman who doesn't do things the way everyone else does them and somehow keeps plugging away, building momentum, gaining devoted grassroots support and msm validation every day. (Have we forgotten him already?) Not because he jumps from issue to issue, flavor of the month money making opportunity or because he knows from experience how to run a slimy spoiler campaign like this supposed strategical genius Michael I. Rothfeld...

*sigh*

I don't know why you refuse to see what's going on...

I'm not sure who you are talking about, because Ron Paul works with a number of people that he doesn't see eye-to-eye with on every issue. Case in point -- Kucinek and Grayson, amongst many others.

So, Rothfeld doesn't agree with us on foreign policy. So what? He wasn't hired to teach foreign policy; he was hired to teach us how to successfully infiltrate the GOP. And apparently, he is pretty darn good at it.

[LittleLightShining]

Who is the person in question that is teaching?

Michael I. Rothfeld

http://saberinc.net/saber/about.htm

[LittleLightShining]

I'm not sure who you are talking about, because Ron Paul works with a number of people that he doesn't see eye-to-eye with on every issue. Case in point -- Kucinek and Grayson, amongst many others.

So, Rothfeld doesn't agree with us on foreign policy. So what? He wasn't hired to teach foreign policy; he was hired to teach us how to successfully infiltrate the GOP. And apparently, he is pretty darn good at it.

Interesting since Debbie Hopper swears that there's no concerted effort by the C4L to take over the GOP despite all of the evidence to the contrary. Thanks for backing me up on that one.

What I want to know is WHY hasn't there been a sky is falling mailer from national about the Patriot Act renewal? Where is the outrage from C4L national about the war-- besides Ron Paul's lonely voice? NOWHERE. Why? Because Michael Rothfeld doesn't agree with us on foreign policy and as long as he is the fundraising and strategy guy C4L will not come out swinging against it-- UNLESS the mainstream GOP voters change their tune.

Von Steuben my behind. What do American soldiers in the middle east fear most about their enemy? IED's. Not traditional gun battles or air strikes. They are least protected against guerrilla tactics. WAKE UP!

[LibertyEagle]

Interesting since Debbie Hopper swears that there's no concerted effort by the C4L to take over the GOP despite all of the evidence to the contrary. Thanks for backing me up on that one.

Successfully infiltrate is not the same thing as "takeover". If we do not know how to be effective within political parties, we have no chance.


What I want to know is WHY hasn't there been a sky is falling mailer from national about the Patriot Act renewal? Where is the outrage from C4L national about the war-- besides Ron Paul's lonely voice? NOWHERE. Why? Because Michael Rothfeld doesn't agree with us on foreign policy and as long as he is the fundraising and strategy guy C4L will not come out swinging against it-- UNLESS the mainstream GOP voters change their tune.
He was not hired to teach that, LLS. And on the other, if you want to know why the C4L did or did not do something, and really want an answer, pick up the phone and ask them.


Von Steuben my behind. What do American soldiers in the middle east fear most about their enemy? IED's. Not traditional gun battles or air strikes. They are least protected against guerrilla tactics. WAKE UP!

[LittleLightShining]

Successfully infiltrate is not the same thing as "takeover". If we do not know how to be effective within political parties, we have no chance. Do explain the difference to me. Why infiltrate if you have no intention of taking it over?



He was not hired to teach that, LLS . And on the other, if you want to know why the C4L did or did not do something, and really want an answer, pick up the phone and ask them.
Why are you trying to squelch discussion again? You're a good little guard dog, though.

And you are fully aware that I spoke with Debbie Hopper for a looooong time-- an hour and a half to be exact-- last week. I asked all my questions and the answers I got made me more disgusted than I was before. I have resigned my position as county coordinator because I was "gently" told that by having that position I should not speak critically of the C4L. I have said it before and I'll say it again. I do NOT wear a muzzle well. I'd rather keep doing what I'm doing than have people try to shut me up for pointing out facts, asking questions and trying to have a discussion about it.

If you don't want me talking about the Campaign For Liberty here you're gonna have to ban me. And everyone will see that there actually IS something not right that needs to be hidden.

[LibertyEagle]

Why are you trying to squelch discussion again?
No one is squelching whatever it is that you are doing. If you are telling me that I cannot participate, I guess that means that it is you who are trying to squelch me.


You're a good little guard dog, though.
How nice. Thank you. :rolleyes:


And you are fully aware that I spoke with Debbie Hopper for a looooong time-- an hour and a half to be exact-- last week. I asked all my questions and the answers I got made me more disgusted than I was before. I have resigned my position as county coordinator because I was "gently" told that by having that position I should not speak critically of the C4L. I have said it before and I'll say it again. I do NOT wear a muzzle well. I'd rather keep doing what I'm doing than have people try to shut me up for pointing out facts, asking questions and trying to have a discussion about it.

If you don't want me talking about the Campaign For Liberty here you're gonna have to ban me. And everyone will see that there actually IS something not right that needs to be hidden.

Complain to your heart's content, LLS. :)

[LittleLightShining]

No one is squelching whatever it is that you are doing. If you are telling me that I cannot participate, I guess that means that it is you who are trying to squelch me. You're the one whose answer to my questions is always, "Pick up the phone and ask them." I have no issue with your participation, LE.







Complain to your heart's content, LLS. :)Thanks.

[MsDoodahs]

And you are fully aware that I spoke with Debbie Hopper for a looooong time-- an hour and a half to be exact-- last week. I asked all my questions and the answers I got made me more disgusted than I was before. I have resigned my position as county coordinator because I was "gently" told that by having that position I should not speak critically of the C4L.

That should send up RED FLAGS regarding what CFL has morphed into, people.

Sad, but ... eh, whatever. Istopped donating to them a while back - reading this confirms I made the right call.


I have said it before and I'll say it again. I do NOT wear a muzzle well. I'd rather keep doing what I'm doing than have people try to shut me up for pointing out facts, asking questions and trying to have a discussion about it.

If you don't want me talking about the Campaign For Liberty here you're gonna have to ban me. And everyone will see that there actually IS something not right that needs to be hidden.

I'm flagging this post to the mod forum - I am asking that Josh weigh in on whether or not criticism of CFL is allowed here.

[paulpwns]

:confused::(

How are the young people outside of the direct movement supposed to take this?

Should we lose faith in the one organization that actually gives some type of hope?

I am all types of confused right now.

[LittleLightShining]

:confused::(

How are the young people outside of the direct movement supposed to take this?

Should we lose faith in the one organization that actually gives some type of hope?

I am all types of confused right now.Tell me about it! Don't stop what you're doing. Keep fighting the good fight. But make sure you're focusing your time, energy and money in the right direction.

C4L has a lot of good things about it. Being involved in your local area with your local people is the most important thing you can be doing right now. Use the tools to the advantage of liberty in your state and as far as they will take you on national issues. Absolutely DO get involved in a party. Just beware that there are opportunists everywhere and just because an organization claims to stand for liberty doesn't mean it can't be corrupted.

[LibertyEagle]

That should send up RED FLAGS regarding what CFL has morphed into, people.

Sad, but ... eh, whatever. Istopped donating to them a while back - reading this confirms I made the right call.

Morphed? I am not aware of too many other political organizations who have been as successful as C4L has been in pushing controversial legislation like Audit The Fed to the point where it has been co-sponsored by ALL the Republicans and a good number of the Democrats. How many other new political organizations do you know of that are going around the country putting on regional conferences with the likes of Ron Paul, Thomas Woods and Judge Napolitano, to both rally us and also to teach us how to be more politically-effective.

No, they're not perfect and they were slow out of the gate at the beginning. But, overall, I'm pretty impressed at what they are accomplishing now. But then again, they are only as good as the members are.


I'm flagging this post to the mod forum - I am asking that Josh weigh in on whether or not criticism of CFL is allowed here.

No one has said that criticism of C4L is not allowed on this forum, MsD.

[LittleLightShining]

Morphed? I am not aware of too many other political organizations who have been as successful as C4L has been in pushing controversial legislation like Audit The Fed to the point where it has been co-sponsored by ALL the Republicans and a good number of the Democrats. How many other new political organizations do you know of that are going around the country putting on regional conferences with the likes of Ron Paul, Thomas Woods and Judge Napolitano, to both rally us and also to teach us how to be more politically-effective.

No, they're not perfect and they were slow out of the gate at the beginning. But, overall, I'm pretty impressed at what they are accomplishing now. But then again, they are only as good as the members are.

Look, Rothfeld-- and you can google Michael I. Rothfeld and find what he says all over the internet-- says education is a bad strategy. Was it maneuvering into political parties that made the push for 1207 so successful or was it the fact that thousands of grassroots activists were hitting pen, pavement and video HARD to educate the people-- including their own congresspeople? How successful has Ron Paul been in moving this anti-fed type of legislation all these years by trying to do it politically? It wasn't until the people LEARNED about the Fed that they were motivated to act and spread the message.

THAT is success. THAT is what C4L needs to stay focused on. NOT trying to curry favor with the GOP who threw Ron under the bus. Again, that doesn't mean we shouldn't engage in party politics. What it does mean is that C4L should not be paying a guy who doesn't believe in what we believe in to push us in a direction -- HIS direction-- that hasn't worked for Ron Paul, isn't really working for Rand, has flopped totally in Nevada and Florida and most recently been proven again with Matt.

[LibertyEagle]

Look, Rothfeld-- and you can google Michael I. Rothfeld and find what he says all over the internet-- says education is a bad strategy. Was it maneuvering into political parties that made the push for 1207 so successful or was it the fact that thousands of grassroots activists were hitting pen, pavement and video HARD to educate the people-- including their own congresspeople? How successful has Ron Paul been in moving this anti-fed type of legislation all these years by trying to do it politically? It wasn't until the people LEARNED about the Fed that they were motivated to act and spread the message.
I would imagine, it was BOTH. And the C4L IS educating. But, the reality is that a number of groups, Mises, the JBS, FFF, FEE, etc., have been using education as their primary driving force, many for over 30 years. Who did they educate? Little niche groups is who. And that is all fine and good, but if you don't ALSO take that education and get strategically-involved politically, it will do no damn good.


THAT is success. THAT is what C4L needs to stay focused on. NOT trying to curry favor with the GOP who threw Ron under the bus. Again, that doesn't mean we shouldn't engage in party politics. What it does mean is that C4L should not be paying a guy who doesn't believe in what we believe in to push us in a direction -- HIS direction-- that hasn't worked for Ron Paul, isn't really working for Rand, has flopped totally in Nevada and Florida and most recently been proven again with Matt.
The board is filled with members of Dr. Paul's family. Do you honestly believe that the C4L is not doing what Ron wants it to do.

The reality is that you don't agree with the C4L's mission. Not a thing wrong with that. Go do your own thing then and power to you.

“I have many friends in the libertarian movement who look down on those of us who get involved in political activity,” he acknowledged, but “eventually, if you want to bring about changes … what you have to do is participate in political action.” -- Ron Paul
http://www.amconmag.com/article/2008/sep/22/00019/

[MsDoodahs]

"An even more common mistake is to believe that the key to victory is education.

'Education is the key to political victory' theory claims that if we educate people as to the problem and the solution, then the elected officials will fall in line.

Wrong."

Michael I. Rothfeld

I'm sorry - I thought CFL was all about EDUCATING PEOPLE so they could PUT PRESSURE on their ELECTED OFFICIALS so those elected officials would FALL IN LINE.

Exactly as was done with Ron's Audit the Fed bill.

Hiring some guy to tell us what we have BEEN doing is WRONG ... makes zero sense.

Having Deb Hopper encourage the removal of LLS is damned INSANITY.

[LibertyEagle]

Are you sure you are not taking that out of context? He teaches a course on political-effectiveness. So, that means doing something with all that education. Education alone is not enough.

[LittleLightShining]

I would imagine, it was BOTH. And the C4L IS educating. But, the reality is that a number of groups, Mises, the JBS, FFF, FEE, etc., have been using education as their primary driving force, many for over 30 years. Who did they educate? Little niche groups is who. And that is all fine and good, but if you don't ALSO take that education and get strategically-involved politically, it will do no damn good.


The board is filled with members of Dr. Paul's family. Do you honestly believe that the C4L is not doing what Ron wants it to do.

The reality is that you don't agree with the C4L's mission. Not a thing wrong with that. Go do your own thing then and power to you.

“I have many friends in the libertarian movement who look down on those of us who get involved in political activity,” he acknowledged, but “eventually, if you want to bring about changes … what you have to do is participate in political action.” -- Ron Paul
http://www.amconmag.com/article/2008/sep/22/00019/Where have I EVER said we should not be engaging in political activity? I joined the GOP, got on the executive committee of my county committee, and have established myself in the party.

I do agree with the mission. As it was when the organization began. The more important thing is that I agree with every one of the principles.

Again, LE, you're doing a good job. I hope you get a Christmas bonus.

[NightOwl]

Having Deb Hopper encourage the removal of LLS is damned INSANITY.

Sorry, but what is LLS?

[ingrid]

I'm sorry - I thought CFL was all about EDUCATING PEOPLE so they could PUT PRESSURE on their ELECTED OFFICIALS so those elected officials would FALL IN LINE.

Exactly as was done with Ron's Audit the Fed bill.


I saw him twice; once in MN at the training before the Rally for the Republic and at PA. And yes, he does talk about how the education theory is flawed for both politicians and the general public. I was looking at my MN notes just now, and he actually used the Federal Reserve as one of the examples as to how the theory doesn't work :rolleyes:

I liked him and thought he made a lot of sense in his speeches, but I do remember thinking a few times when he was speaking that what he was saying was the opposite of what the C4L had said. Hm

[LibertyEagle]

Sorry, but what is LLS?

LittleLightShining

[MsDoodahs]

I saw him twice; once in MN at the training before the Rally for the Republic and at PA. And yes, he does talk about how the education theory is flawed for both politicians and the general public. I was looking at my MN notes just now, and he actually used the Federal Reserve as one of the examples as to how the theory doesn't work :rolleyes:

Thanks, Ingrid.

I see this as a problem, but hey, I'm not even a member of CFL, and already stopped donating because I got tired of constant phone calls from barely literate kids begging me for more money more money more money.

[LittleLightShining]

I saw him twice; once in MN at the training before the Rally for the Republic and at PA. And yes, he does talk about how the education theory is flawed for both politicians and the general public. I was looking at my MN notes just now, and he actually used the Federal Reserve as one of the examples as to how the theory doesn't work :rolleyes:

I liked him and thought he made a lot of sense in his speeches, but I do remember thinking a few times when he was speaking that what he was saying was the opposite of what the C4L had said. HmSee, LE. It's NOT just me.


I feel I need to make it VERY clear that I am not trying to tear down the C4L. That's like saying that those of us who want to return America to its roots of liberty and freedom want to destroy the country. I may have been its biggest cheerleader at one time. I have spent the last year of my life building this brand in VT. But there is some very skewed anti-grassroots thinking at the top and unless the plan for C4L is to be just another Heritage foundation it needs to refocus.

I'm sorry, but this Rothfeld guy (and I mention him so frequently because he is being held up as "our Von Steuben") has a long history of jumping on the hot conservative issue of the day and wearing out the organization with pleas for money. What exactly is the U.S. Defense Committee and why does the internet have only vague references to this group?

I will say, to correct something I said earlier-- I was SHOCKED today(well technically last night) when I got a mailer from Ron Paul. I opened it up to see a nice letter from the man himself and he did mention foreign policy. Then there's another 6 pages of "we can't do everything unless you and patriots like you send us $240 or $105!". HOW about you put some real tools (not data mining the who/what/where of your local parties) in place and let the grassroots do everything? Why is this organization so damn top-heavy?

Where is the money going? There was an awful lot of concern from HQ about resources we were allocating in VT to push a state sovereignty resolution. We were told we are wasting our time and money. When I said we don't have any money the response was shock. How can we be doing anything without money? Because when we need it for something specific we pull together and if we need more we ask (very infrequently-- like maybe twice in the last year have we gone outside of our core group and asked the larger VT membership and had a chip-in which I advertised here). Meanwhile, C4L is producing videos to fight healthcare in the midwest. I can't help but wonder how much that's costing when we have some of the brightest video talent right here at rpf.

I can't help be reminded of the friction between HQ and the grassroots during the campaign. It was refreshed in my mind when I watched the For Liberty movie and the reaction to it by HQ-- not releasing the Rally video for almost a year until right when For Liberty came out. Not fantastic reviews of FL coming from people in the HQ circle. What it basically boils down to is US, the grassroots activists that made sure Ron Paul was a household name, being completely taken for granted by HQ. They don't trust us to know our own states, they don't trust us to make decisions based on what's politically achievable where we live with people we know. They did it to us before, I thought C4L would be different and the more I learn the more I see it is not the case.

The only difference between C4L and the JBS, FFF, FEE, Heritage, FreedomWorks or any other lobbying group is US. The tireless, creative, unpolished (or polished in some cases) grassroots activists. Those other groups DO NOT HAVE US and that's why they haven't grown as rapidly or made such an impact on what's happening.

[MsDoodahs]

See, LE. It's NOT just me.

Nope, it's NOT just you.

Because you DARED to speak out here, you've felt the sting of the slap from the heavy hand of national.

Damn shame.


But there is some very skewed anti-grassroots thinking at the top.

....

HOW about you put some real tools (not data mining the who/what/where of your local parties) in place and let the grassroots do everything? Why is this organization so damn top-heavy?

This is an excellent question, and it never gets answered. We were told, IIRC, early on that CFL would be ALL ABOUT THE GRASSROOTS. Remember?

My, how things have changed.


Where is the money going? There was an awful lot of concern from HQ about resources we were allocating in VT to push a state sovereignty resolution. We were told we are wasting our time and money. When I said we don't have any money the response was shock. How can we be doing anything without money?

Sadly, I suggest the reason that there was shock from HQ is because HQ expects ALL MONEY RASIED TO BE SENT TO THEM FIRST. That way....just like the GOVERNMENT, they can take their CUT and then dribble back what's left to y'all for use in your state.


I can't help be reminded of the friction between HQ and the grassroots during the campaign. It was refreshed in my mind when I watched the For Liberty movie and the reaction to it by HQ-- not releasing the Rally video for almost a year until right when For Liberty came out. Not fantastic reviews of FL coming from people in the HQ circle. What it basically boils down to is US, the grassroots activists that made sure Ron Paul was a household name, being completely taken for granted by HQ. They don't trust us to know our own states, they don't trust us to make decisions based on what's politically achievable where we live with people we know. They did it to us before, I thought C4L would be different and the more I learn the more I see it is not the case.

Well said.


The only difference between C4L and the JBS, FFF, FEE, Heritage, FreedomWorks or any other lobbying group is US. The tireless, creative, unpolished (or polished in some cases) grassroots activists. Those other groups DO NOT HAVE US and that's why they haven't grown as rapidly or made such an impact on what's happening.

And the more CFL can alienate its grassroots, the less effective it will become. The more CFL can wear out its membership with frantic GIVE US MONEY NOOOOOW calls, the less effective it will become.

It does make one wonder...

[AuH2O]

What exactly is the U.S. Defense Committee and why does the internet have only vague references to this group?

Because its main purpose related to defending America from the Soviet threat during the Cold War. Not much staying power after the fall of the curtain.

[LittleLightShining]

Because its main purpose related to defending America from the Soviet threat during the Cold War. Not much staying power after the fall of the curtain.Thanks! Do you have some links for that?

[rancher89]

I'll throw in my two cents.

I don't give money to ANY organization, including the C4L

I'm put off by the frequent requests for money from everyone and their brother...everyone wants me to donate money. It's like the phone calls for donations, I hang up as soon as I hear what the call is about, I won't do it.

I support candidates. PERIOD. with donations and time. That's what I did for Ron Paul, that's what I do for the C4L and the GOP.

I have been working with both the GOP and the C4L for a while now and I hate to say it, but most of the questions posed here have crossed my mind. I use both organizations to the best of my ability to get what needs to get done accomplished. It's like using Voter Vault and VSS (another local voter program)-- neither one is perfect, but I can pick and choose the best of each.....and just not use what doesn't work.

That being said, I'm here for the duration, whatever that ends up being. I'd like to go to Atlanta, 3-4 hour drive for me, and hang out with some liberty lovers for a few days. (I'd probably end up being one of "those" people at 2 AM...) Trouble is, I'm unemployed, so we'll see. I'd love to do CPAC too, but I'm sure that isn't going to happen, not both...sigh.

[MRoCkEd]

Mike Rothfeld's training is excellent.

He's there to teach us how politics works, and it is true that "educating the masses" does not win elections.

"Unless You Are Politically Feared, You Will Not Be Respected"

[Matt Collins]

I do need to agree with my algebra teacher, my mechanic and my dancing school instructor in their areas of expertise. I would not go to algebra class expecting to be taught geometry. I would not take my Volvo to the Chevy dealership. I would not expect my tap dancing teacher to have mastered ballet. Of course there are people who can be really good at working on Volvo's and Chevy's and etc but I'd rather have my rig worked on by someone who understands MY car, not just cars in general.But you fail to realize that it's political SCIENCE. The understanding and formulation of political strategy is the same whether it's Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, Greens, etc.

Obviously each group will arrive at a different strategy based upon their currently position and goals, but understanding political strategy is as apolitical as algebra is.

In fact honestly, I think it would better to learn political strategy from someone who is not of my political persuasion because it would challenge me to learn more. I would love to take a class with James Carville and Karl Rove teaching - it would be fascinating and I would get more out of that than from anywhere else.


At college I had an atheist humanities teacher who taught about Christianity and I learned more in that class than I ever did in church growing up! Of course he was a bit colored and biased, but one has to be able to distinguish and separate out the color and biases from anyone whether they are on your side or not. Objectivity is crucial.



You can't really complain about the system and then expect to change it by doing what everyone else is doing. Yes and no. If what everyone else is doing is successful, then the replication of that success might just involve the replication of their tactics and strategy. Again, I am talking about political success, not policy. And of course I would never compromise on principle in order to achieve political power, nor am I suggesting anyone do so (I just got the boot from the GOP because I refused to compromise, remember? ;) ).


I prefer to take my cues from a consistent, principled man of integrity. A successful Republican congressman who doesn't do things the way everyone else does them and somehow keeps plugging away, building momentum, gaining devoted grassroots support and msm validation every day. (Have we forgotten him already?) Not because he jumps from issue to issue, flavor of the month money making opportunity or because he knows from experience how to run a slimy spoiler campaign like this supposed strategical genius Michael I. Rothfeld... Ron continues to win his district largely because he's the incumbent, and also because he delivered 4000+ babies in the area. If Ron had to compete on a level playing field with other Republicans, I doubt he would do as good as he's done. In other words, in a contested election, Ron is not the best person to take advice from because his experience is not as relevant to contested elections.

[LittleLightShining]

But you fail to realize that it's political SCIENCE. The understanding and formulation of political strategy is the same whether it's Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, Greens, etc.

Obviously each group will arrive at a different strategy based upon their currently position and goals, but understanding political strategy is as apolitical as algebra is.

In fact honestly, I think it would better to learn political strategy from someone who is not of my political persuasion because it would challenge me to learn more. I would love to take a class with James Carville and Karl Rove teaching - it would be fascinating and I would get more out of that than from anywhere else.


At college I had an atheist humanities teacher who taught about Christianity and I learned more in that class than I ever did in church growing up! Of course he was a bit colored and biased, but one has to be able to distinguish and separate out the color and biases from anyone whether they are on your side or not. Objectivity is crucial.


Yes and no. If what everyone else is doing is successful, then the replication of that success might just involve the replication of their tactics and strategy. Again, I am talking about political success, not policy. And of course I would never compromise on principle in order to achieve political power, nor am I suggesting anyone do so (I just got the boot from the GOP because I refused to compromise, remember? ;) ).

Ron continues to win his district largely because he's the incumbent, and also because he delivered 4000+ babies in the area. If Ron had to compete on a level playing field with other Republicans, I doubt he would do as good as he's done. In other words, in a contested election, Ron is not the best person to take advice from because his experience is not as relevant to contested elections.


No... his success was just a fluke :rolleyes:

We're not going to agree on this. I said what I needed to say. You can go the Rove/Rothfeld route and I'm certain that what you want-- influence and power-- will come your way.

[AuH2O]

No... his success was just a fluke :rolleyes:

We're not going to agree on this. I said what I needed to say. You can go the Rove/Rothfeld route and I'm certain that what you want-- influence and power-- will come your way.

I'm really not sure you understand Mike's training, especially since he is highly critical of Rove's tactics, and his theory specifically focuses on NOT having power or influence in any "direct" way.

[LittleLightShining]

I'm really not sure you understand Mike's training, especially since he is highly critical of Rove's tactics, and his theory specifically focuses on NOT having power or influence in any "direct" way.
The only reason I mentioned Rove in the first place is because he's a hawk. And a wonk.

Is Rothfeld in agreement with the C4L principle of a non-interventionist foreign policy? Nope.

Does Mike want C4Lers to infiltrate the GOP? Yep.

For what if not influence or power? MONEY.

[AuH2O]

Does Mike want C4Lers to infiltrate the GOP? Yep.

For what if not influence or power? MONEY.

That's a pretty serious allegation to bandy about without substantiation. For what if not influence or power? How about effectiveness or success?

[LittleLightShining]

That's a pretty serious allegation to bandy about without substantiation. For what if not influence or power? How about effectiveness or success?

What allegation am I making. Most political strategists are interested in 1 or more of 3 things-- money, influence and/or power.

Effectiveness of what? Success of what?

[AuH2O]

What allegation am I making. Most political strategists are interested in 1 or more of 3 things-- money, influence and/or power.

I'd like to know what, if anything, you are basing this statement on. However, I'll indulge this likely conjecture, since it is beside the point.


Effectiveness of what? Success of what?

Since he is a trainer in strategy and tactics, the answer would be . . . whatever his trainees decide. These techniques are completely politically neutral, and can be used by anyone for any purpose. You seem caught up in this idea that these tactics hold some ideological value, as if running an effective direct mail program is inherently neo-con or something. That is ridiculous. He also encourages people to read Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals," are you alleging that Rothfeld is a closet communist to boot?

Fact is, he agrees with Ron Paul on 95% on policy, and he teaches liberty people tactics that can be effectively used to promote 100% of RP's vision. Get over yourself, what he teaches can help.

[MsDoodahs]

his theory specifically focuses on NOT having power or influence in any "direct" way.

I think we're pretty expert on that already.

[Matt Collins]

Interesting since Debbie Hopper swears that there's no concerted effort by the C4L to take over the GOP despite all of the evidence to the contrary. Thanks for backing me up on that one.Well officially there is not of course. However both Ron and Rand have encouraged each of us to get involved in our local Republican Party. It's only natural that the CFL is filled with RP supporters. And it's only natural that RP supporters are looking to follow the admonition of Ron and Rand. Therefore if A=B and B=C it only makes sense that many people in the CFL are indeed looking to work through their local Republican Parties.



What I want to know is WHY hasn't there been a sky is falling mailer from national about the Patriot Act renewal? Where is the outrage from C4L national about the war-- besides Ron Paul's lonely voice? NOWHERE. That is a very good question, and I don't know the answer. I would venture a guess that perhaps the CFL can only focus on one or two single issues at a time? Or perhaps they think it's a divisive issue among CFL members and don't want to cause a fracture? Or perhaps they don't think that's a fight they can win? Or maybe they are in a situation where alining themselves with what has been traditionally seen as a liberal/Democrat issue will further alienate the group from the GOP and/or give the GOP leadership more ammo to use against the CFL?



Why? Because Michael Rothfeld doesn't agree with us on foreign policy and as long as he is the fundraising and strategy guy C4L will not come out swinging against it-- UNLESS the mainstream GOP voters change their tune. You might be right, it makes sense, but do you have any proof? :confused:

[AuH2O]

What I want to know is WHY hasn't there been a sky is falling mailer from national about the Patriot Act renewal?


I will say, to correct something I said earlier-- I was SHOCKED today(well technically last night) when I got a mailer from Ron Paul. I opened it up to see a nice letter from the man himself and he did mention foreign policy.

This piece also discusses Patriot Act renewal, BTW.

[LittleLightShining]

I'd like to know what, if anything, you are basing this statement on. However, I'll indulge this likely conjecture, since it is beside the point.
Please link me to a political strategist who wants something other than power, influence or money.


Since he is a trainer in strategy and tactics, the answer would be . . . whatever his trainees decide. These techniques are completely politically neutral, and can be used by anyone for any purpose. You seem caught up in this idea that these tactics hold some ideological value, as if running an effective direct mail program is inherently neo-con or something. That is ridiculous. He also encourages people to read Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals," are you alleging that Rothfeld is a closet communist to boot? These tactics hold no ideological value, then? An effective direct mail campaign does what? Brings in the MONEY.


Fact is, he agrees with Ron Paul on 95% on policy, and he teaches liberty people tactics that can be effectively used to promote 100% of RP's vision. Get over yourself, what he teaches can help.What he teaches can help what exactly? Since you are expert on his strategy and tactics and I am not you can surely articulate much better than I can what the outcome is supposed to be.

[LittleLightShining]

This piece also discusses Patriot Act renewal, BTW.
I did notice that. But it also gives us the ultimatum of choosing to send money or giving up on fighting that battle.

[AuH2O]

Please link me to a political strategist who wants something other than power, influence or money. You are the one making an allegation; The burden of proof lies with you.


These tactics hold no ideological value, then? An effective direct mail campaign does what? Brings in the MONEY. Since when is money an ideology? It is a tool for political action. Are you concerned that C4L's DM program lines Mike Rothfeld and John Tate's pockets, and is not spent trying to Audit the Fed?


What he teaches can help what exactly? Since you are expert on his strategy and tactics and I am not you can surely articulate much better than I can what the outcome is supposed to be.
I'll say it again, he teaches tactics to help you push whatever legislative agenda you want to push. Their are groups of every political stripe that follow the confrontation and mobilization model.

[LittleLightShining]

You are the one making an allegation; The burden of proof lies with you. You're not listening. I'm not making an allegation, I'm stating something very fundamental.


Since when is money an ideology? It is a tool for political action. Are you concerned that C4L's DM program lines Mike Rothfeld and John Tate's pockets, and is not spent trying to Audit the Fed? again. You're not listening. YOU were asserting that there is no ideological value to the tactics. WHAT'S the point, then? Obviously not to further an ideology-- a firmly rooted ideology that one MUST have in order to make more than a superficial change-- such as electing Republicans.



I'll say it again, he teaches tactics to help you push whatever legislative agenda you want to push. Their are groups of every political stripe that follow the confrontation and mobilization model.
If he had anything to do with the strategy used for 1207 on the legislative end he is a failure. The only success that came from 1207 was in the arena of educating the public about the Fed-- which he CLEARLY does not believe in.

[AuH2O]

You're not listening. I'm not making an allegation, I'm stating something very fundamental. Something very fundamental that you are basing entirely on anecdotal evidence and supposition. Let's not bother with this anymore, since it neither here nor there.


again. You're not listening. YOU were asserting that there is no ideological value to the tactics. WHAT'S the point, then? Obviously not to further an ideology-- a firmly rooted ideology that one MUST have in order to make more than a superficial change-- such as electing Republicans. I think a differentiation needs to be made -- between his training he provides and any behind-the-scenes steering he does on the general direction of C4L. As far as the training goes -- he is paid to teach tactics. Insofar as their is ideology involved here, it is only the ideology of those being taught, as that directs how those tactical weapons are wielded. I think he only teaches to people of like-mind, but if a radical communist were sitting in the room, he'd take just as much away from it as you or I. Rothfeld isn't indoctrinating political philosophy, he's teaching strategy, so if you disagree with him on something, feel free to take his tactics and make something happen that he won't like.

As far as any control he may have over the direction of C4L, I couldn't say, but that could be guided by personal ideology. What I will say is that multi-issue groups are notoriously difficult to sustain over time and without fracture. I C4L is list-building based on Audit the Fed...maybe they don't want to lose 50% of the people they gain who agree with 90% of the platform over one issue. Again, not my call to make.

And being from Virginia, I know Mike has spent more time kicking Republicans out of office than getting them elected.



If he had anything to do with the strategy used for 1207 on the legislative end he is a failure. The only success that came from 1207 was in the arena of educating the public about the Fed-- which he CLEARLY does not believe in.

I'd like to know exactly what sort of educating you are talking about here, and you believe it directly furthered HR 1207's progress. I'm not disputing your efforts necessarily, but just I don't know what they are.

[LittleLightShining]

Something very fundamental that you are basing entirely on anecdotal evidence and supposition. Let's not bother with this anymore, since it neither here nor there.... ok.


I think a differentiation needs to be made -- between his training he provides and any behind-the-scenes steering he does on the general direction of C4L. As far as the training goes -- he is paid to teach tactics. Insofar as their is ideology involved here, it is only the ideology of those being taught, as that directs how those tactical weapons are wielded. I think he only teaches to people of like-mind, but if a radical communist were sitting in the room, he'd take just as much away from it as you or I. Rothfeld isn't indoctrinating political philosophy, he's teaching strategy, so if you disagree with him on something, feel free to take his tactics and make something happen that he won't like.

I'm not disputing that his training may be nonpartisan and universally acceptable. What I am disputing is the value of teaching attendees to focus their efforts on a very small percentage of voters as opposed to educating as many as possible. While this strategy may be effective in electoral politics it does not a movement make-- or nurture. For those unfamiliar with the training I encourage you to read what he has to say (http://louisianacarry.org/articles/nature_of_system.htm). My biggest issue with the training is the absolute disdain he has for education. Period. Which C4L, in its infancy, was supposed to do.




Politicians, Not Education and Not Public Opinion, Make Policy


The first mistake most folks make when they set out on a good-faith crusade to do good is to completely misunderstand their targets.

Sometimes, activists make the local newspaper or media the target. The thinking goes, “If we can just get them to understand the problem, things will change.” It is fortunate that this is not correct, because the media in the U.S. is overwhelmingly committed to big government, gun control, and the supremacy of state-controlled education over parent controlled education.

The fact is newspapers cast no votes. The national evening news controls no elections. If this were not true, Ronald Reagan would never have been President.

An even more common mistake is to believe that the key to victory is education.

The “education is the key to political victory” theory claims that if we educate people as to the problem and the solution, then the elected officials will fall in line.

Wrong.

Polls show huge majorities of Americans in favor of parental notification before a minor has an abortion. Yet the mere mention of the issue drives most politicians into fits of terror. Similarly, three-quarters of the American people oppose forced-unionism and favor Right to Work laws; however, such laws exist in only 22 states.

It is important to understand the two reasons why the education theory of politics is a mistake.

First, the theory assumes no opposing “education” effort. This is rarely the case.

Polls showed a majority in California favored education choice, yet the 1992 School Voucher Referendum lost 2-1 on election day. Why? Because the NEA-teachers’ union bosses and pro-government-school-monopoly forces out-organized school choice forces, had a more focused message, and spent a lot more money.

The second, and more important, reason the “education is the key” theory fails lies in the nature of politics and politicians.(Emphasis mine)

I would like to remind people that the Founding Fathers were very adamant about the importance of an informed electorate.





As far as any control he may have over the direction of C4L, I couldn't say, but that could be guided by personal ideology. What I will say is that multi-issue groups are notoriously difficult to sustain over time and without fracture. I C4L is list-building based on Audit the Fed...maybe they don't want to lose 50% of the people they gain who agree with 90% of the platform over one issue. Again, not my call to make.

And being from Virginia, I know Mike has spent more time kicking Republicans out of office than getting them elected.




I'd like to know exactly what sort of educating you are talking about here, and you believe it directly furthered HR 1207's progress. I'm not disputing your efforts necessarily, but just I don't know what they are.If it were not for activists tirelessly educating their family, friends and neighbors about the true nature of the Federal Reserve the success 1207 had in terms of popular support would never have been. Unfortunately the legislative strategy was a failure and a discharge petition really should have been requested. At any rate, people "get" the Fed now and that is not due to political strategy but education.

As an aside, what's your position with C4L?

**eta: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=2157080&postcount=15

[AuH2O]

As an aside, what's your position with C4L?

None.

[Matt Collins]

Successfully infiltrate is not the same thing as "takeover". If we do not know how to be effective within political parties, we have no chance.

Do explain the difference to me. Why infiltrate if you have no intention of taking it over?

This is interesting. Earlier this year I had a private sit down with Ron and I told him about what we were trying to do, and he liked it. But he did mention something to the effect that taking over the entire GOP wasn't practical, or it shouldn't be the end goal, or something like that. I wasn't exactly sure what he meant by it, or maybe it was just his personality being very humble as usual. This is in contrast to Rand who in January of 08 told me that we should try to dominate our local Republican Parties.

Obviously we want access and influence within the GOP, but I say if we have the ability to outright take it over, or at least steer it, then we should take that opportunity to do so because it lays the groundwork for the future making runs by people such as Gary Johnson, Rand, and the like, much easier if we already have people in key GOP positions.

[LittleLightShining]

This is interesting. Earlier this year I had a private sit down with Ron and I told him about what we were trying to do, and he liked it. But he did mention something to the effect that taking over the entire GOP wasn't practical, or it shouldn't be the end goal, or something like that. I wasn't exactly sure what he meant by it, or maybe it was just his personality being very humble as usual. This is in contrast to Rand who in January of 08 told me that we should try to dominate our local Republican Parties.

Obviously we want access and influence within the GOP, but I say if we have the ability to outright take it over, or at least steer it, then we should take that opportunity to do so because it lays the groundwork for the future making runs by people such as Gary Johnson, Rand, and the like, much easier if we already have people in key GOP positions.
Thanks for this tidbit. It validates my position. Like I said, it's not that I don't think we should get involved in the GOP (or any other party) and do what we can to steer it in a more Constitutional direction. But I don't think this should be a focus of C4L and apparently neither does Ron Paul.

[LibertyEagle]

Thanks for this tidbit. It validates my position. Like I said, it's not that I don't think we should get involved in the GOP (or any other party) and do what we can to steer it in a more Constitutional direction. But I don't think this should be a focus of C4L and apparently neither does Ron Paul.

Ron Paul did not say anything that indicated that he disagrees with what C4L is doing.

If one is going to spend the time to get involved with political action within a political party, it is common sense to be as effective as possible as one is doing so. That appears to be the goal of Rothfeld's training, for those who wish to have that knowledge.

[LittleLightShining]

Ron Paul did not say anything that indicated that he disagrees with what C4L is doing.

If one is going to spend the time to get involved with political action within a political party, it is common sense to be as effective as possible as one is doing so. That appears to be the goal of Rothfeld's training, for those who wish to have that knowledge.


Earlier this year I had a private sit down with Ron and I told him about what we were trying to do, and he liked it. But he did mention something to the effect that taking over the entire GOP wasn't practical, or it shouldn't be the end goal, or something like that.

LE, when you decide to get active yourself let's talk about it. Until then, this deskchair defense thing you've got going on is getting old.

[LibertyEagle]

Please point me to where the C4L said that their "end goal" was to take "over the entire GOP".

[LittleLightShining]

Please point me to where the C4L said that their "end goal" was to take "over the entire GOP".
"Officially" there is no end goal. Did I say that?

[LibertyEagle]

"Officially" there is no end goal. Did I say that?

I must have misunderstood the reason why you bolded that sentence of Matt's. Ok, good, we agree that it's not C4L's end goal to take over the GOP. :)

[LittleLightShining]

I must have misunderstood the reason why you bolded that sentence of Matt's. Ok, good, we agree that it's not C4L's end goal to take over the GOP. :)But it may be Rothfeld's...

[Matt Collins]

:confused::(

How are the young people outside of the direct movement supposed to take this?

Should we lose faith in the one organization that actually gives some type of hope?

I am all types of confused right now.Go to the event and make your own decision. Remember the CFL on the State level is whatever you make of it, not necessarily what national HQ dictates.

[Matt Collins]

Morphed? I am not aware of too many other political organizations who have been as successful as C4L has been in pushing controversial legislation like Audit The Fed to the point where it has been co-sponsored by ALL the Republicans and a good number of the Democrats. How many other new political organizations do you know of that are going around the country putting on regional conferences with the likes of Ron Paul, Thomas Woods and Judge Napolitano, to both rally us and also to teach us how to be more politically-effective.

No, they're not perfect and they were slow out of the gate at the beginning. But, overall, I'm pretty impressed at what they are accomplishing now. But then again, they are only as good as the members are. I would overall have to agree with this (although the constant begging for money, and their marketing methods are quite obnoxious).

[LibertyEagle]

I would overall have to agree with this (although the constant begging for money, and their marketing methods are quite obnoxious).

Apparently, it is successful which is why they keep doing it.

[LittleLightShining]

Apparently, it is successful which is why they keep doing it.
Successful in that they are bringing in money. Also successful in that it is seriously wearing people out.

[Matt Collins]

that hasn't worked for Ron Paul, isn't really working for Rand, has flopped totally in Nevada and Florida and most recently been proven again with Matt.Yes but if we brute force it then we can be a force to be reckoned with.

[Matt Collins]

“I have many friends in the libertarian movement who look down on those of us who get involved in political activity,” he acknowledged, but “eventually, if you want to bring about changes … what you have to do is participate in political action.” -- Ron Paul
http://www.amconmag.com/article/2008/sep/22/00019/ (http://www.amconmag.com/article/2008/sep/22/00019/)
That's an AWESOME quote. I'm sure I'll be using it many many many times in the future.

[Matt Collins]

Where have I EVER said we should not be engaging in political activity? I joined the GOP, got on the executive committee of my county committee, and have established myself in the party. Really? Congrats... tell us the details, I especially would love to read about it.

[LittleLightShining]

Really? Congrats... tell us the details, I especially would love to read about it.Give me a call and I'll tell you all about it. I don't think it's particularly useful to lay it all out on the internet ;)

[InterestedParticipant]

“I have many friends in the libertarian movement who look down on those of us who get involved in political activity,” he acknowledged, but “eventually, if you want to bring about changes … what you have to do is participate in political action.” -- Ron Paul
http://www.amconmag.com/article/2008/sep/22/00019/
Maybe I should give Ron a copy of "The Political Illusion (http://www.amazon.com/Political-Illusion-Jacques-Ellul/dp/0394718127)" by Jacques Ellul

[Matt Collins]

Sorry, but what is LLS?
LLS = LittleLightShining, one of the other posters in this thread.

[Matt Collins]

The only difference between C4L and the JBS, FFF, FEE, Heritage, FreedomWorks or any other lobbying group is US. The tireless, creative, unpolished (or polished in some cases) grassroots activists. Those other groups DO NOT HAVE US and that's why they haven't grown as rapidly or made such an impact on what's happening.
Interesting point, but I would indeed say that Heritage is well funded.

[Matt Collins]

Because you DARED to speak out here, you've felt the sting of the slap from the heavy hand of national.How so?


Sadly, I suggest the reason that there was shock from HQ is because HQ expects ALL MONEY RASIED TO BE SENT TO THEM FIRST. That way....just like the GOVERNMENT, they can take their CUT and then dribble back what's left to y'all for use in your state. I don't get that impression. In fact the impression that I get is that each state is on it's own to raise their own funds.

[LittleLightShining]

I don't understand why you're playing dumb, Matt.

The relationship has always been tenuous, as was your observation over a year ago.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=152796

[Matt Collins]

I don't understand why you're playing dumb, Matt.

The relationship has always been tenuous, as was your observation over a year ago.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=152796 (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=152796)
A lot has changed in a year.

[LittleLightShining]

A lot has changed in a year.

Doesn't look like it to me.

[Matt Collins]

I support candidates. PERIOD. with donations and time. That's what I did for Ron Paul, that's what I do for the C4L and the GOP. Yeah candidates are important but so are organizations. If you have a choice, go with candidates though because they will accomplish more if elected; or at least they have the potential to do so.

[Matt Collins]

Mike Rothfeld's training is excellent.

He's there to teach us how politics works, and it is true that "educating the masses" does not win elections. As I've said before, we need to win over their hearts and minds in the off-cycle, so that when election season gets here it's much easier to win their votes. :)

[InterestedParticipant]

As I've said before, we need to win over their hearts and minds in the off-cycle, so that when election season gets here it's much easier to win their votes. :)
Why?

[torchbearer]

Why?

people are less "guarded" when it isn't a presidential election. the dynamics of approaching someone about philosophy is easier when they have sold themselves to some candidate personality.

[rancher89]

lls and matt pm me and I'll tell you what's up in the nc c4l and nc gop and my part. If you are interested. I don't think it's proper interwebs material....

[Matt Collins]

No... his success was just a fluke :rolleyes:Ron's success was not a fluke. He won his district because he was well known and well liked, plus his political philosophy was close to those in his district (Texas). Once an incumbent it's almost impossible to be voted out.

[Matt Collins]

gratuitous bump

[LittleLightShining]

Ron's success was not a fluke. He won his district because he was well known and well liked, plus his political philosophy was close to those in his district (Texas). Once an incumbent it's almost impossible to be voted out.

I was being sarcastic... hence the rolly eyes...

Not sure why you'd choose to bump this thread rather than the one that actually talks about the conference without the drama.

[Matt Collins]

What allegation am I making. Most political strategists are interested in 1 or more of 3 things-- money, influence and/or power.

Effectiveness of what? Success of what?
Well some do just like to be proud of their accomplishments. There are many humble people that work behind the scenes. I dont know Mr Rothfield or not, but jumping to conclusions is not always the best approach. Perhaps you know him better than I do?

[LibertyMage]

I went to the conference in Valley Forge. It was WELL worth it.

[dr. hfn]

I went to the conference in Valley Forge. It was WELL worth it.

me too!

[Matt Collins]

I'm not disputing that his training may be nonpartisan and universally acceptable. What I am disputing is the value of teaching attendees to focus their efforts on a very small percentage of voters as opposed to educating as many as possible. While this strategy may be effective in electoral politics it does not a movement make-- or nurture. For those unfamiliar with the training I encourage you to read what he has to say (http://louisianacarry.org/articles/nature_of_system.htm). My biggest issue with the training is the absolute disdain he has for education. Period. Which C4L, in its infancy, was supposed to do.You have to do both.

Winning elections is not about education, it's about getting votes. Elections are short term victories in most instances. However over the long term, the education arm definitely needs to exist. If you win their hearts and minds in the off-season then when it comes time for an election it's much easier to win over their vote.

[LittleLightShining]

You have to do both.

Winning elections is not about education, it's about getting votes. Elections are short term victories in most instances. However over the long term, the education arm definitely needs to exist. If you win their hearts and minds in the off-season then when it comes time for an election it's much easier to win over their vote.

Whatever, Matt. Talk in circles some more.

[Matt Collins]

Whatever, Matt. Talk in circles some more.
Im not talking in circles at all :rolleyes:

[Matt Collins]

I went to the conference in Valley Forge. It was WELL worth it.
I went to the St Louis event last March and I must say the same thing. I met some now very good friends :)

[Matt Collins]

Final bump before I hit the road.

[dr. hfn]

I hope you guys have a great time!

[TheTyke]

Winning elections is not about education, it's about getting votes. Elections are short term victories in most instances. However over the long term, the education arm definitely needs to exist. If you win their hearts and minds in the off-season then when it comes time for an election it's much easier to win over their vote.

I will emphatically agree with Matt here. I have a couple friends that have come around to many of Ron's beliefs... after talking to them for about 2 years. Hopefully, this will stick with them for future elections, but it was too late to get votes for Ron.

But now we are trying to get Rand elected, and we have 4 months... that's not enough time to educate enough voters to win. That's why, when running for office, you have to craft a message that's appealing to the voters. You don't have time to educate all of them.

[Matt Collins]

But now we are trying to get Rand elected, and we have 4 months... that's not enough time to educate enough voters to win. That's why, when running for office, you have to craft a message that's appealing to the voters. You don't have time to educate all of them.If you are trying to feed the people broccoli you sometimes must put sugar or salt or cheese on it - it has to be dressed and flavored so that people are willing to try it.

[LittleLightShining]

If you are trying to feed the people broccoli you sometimes must put sugar or salt or cheese on it - it has to be dressed and flavored so that people are willing to try it.

I like this, Matt. :eek:

[Matt Collins]

I like this, Matt. :eek:
I'm 50ft from your favorite guy right now, want me to tell him anything for you? ;)

[LittleLightShining]

I'm 50ft from your favorite guy right now, want me to tell him anything for you? ;)

I NEVER said I don't like him. (If you're talking about the Judge.) You misunderstand. anyway, have fun hobnobbing while us poor people sit home.

[MRoCkEd]

I NEVER said I don't like him. (If you're talking about the Judge.) You misunderstand. anyway, have fun hobnobbing while us poor people sit home.
I think he means Mike Rothfeld. ;)

[LittleLightShining]

I think he means Mike Rothfeld. ;)

OHHHH... yeah, don't waste your time, then ;)

[ingrid]

Recently I've been thinking a lot of about the things Mike Rothfeld said in MN. Many of the things he warned about there, I've have since been through or witnessed.

I saw him again in PA, but he didn't really go into things like he did in MN. If you get to hear him lecture in depth, I highly recommend it.

[Matt Collins]

Wow it was a crazy weekend. Anyone who is seeing the pics on Facebook knows this :D;):p

[MsDoodahs]

bump.

[LittleLightShining]

It definitely makes sense for people to go back through this thread and read it again. I'm not trying to pump myself up here but it's the things I said in this thread specifically that made Debbie Hopper ask my state coordinator to remove me.

When the response to questions is to remove the person asking them you know there's something very wrong.

[rancher89]

I'm with you on Rothfeld, LLS, he does us no good even if he is a wonderful stratigist/mass mailer.....he's rude and obnoxious. I stressed being nice and polite to my members, even when faced with those who were rude and obnoxious to them (when canvassing or just mingling.) Why should we have to put up with this, nay pay for it, from someone who is supposed to teach us how to do somethng better???

[InterestedParticipant]

Originally Posted by Matt Collins
If you are trying to feed the people broccoli you sometimes must put sugar or salt or cheese on it - it has to be dressed and flavored so that people are willing to try it.
When you are on that slippery slope, it does not take very long to become Frank Luntz, and semantic deception become available but sold as necessary persuasion. Either way, you have joined the ranks of the Ponerized (http://wwws.forummotion.com/definitions-key-terms-semantic-manipulation-f22/ponerized-to-be-ponerized-t144.htm) and are only deluding yourself.

[Matt Collins]

When you are on that slippery slope, it does not take very long to become Frank Luntz, and semantic deception become available but sold as necessary persuasion. Either way, you have joined the ranks of the Ponerized (http://wwws.forummotion.com/definitions-key-terms-semantic-manipulation-f22/ponerized-to-be-ponerized-t144.htm) and are only deluding yourself.
You are confusing policy with electoral politics. The two are not the same, I have come to learn this firsthand.

[InterestedParticipant]

You are confusing policy with electoral politics. The two are not the same, I have come to learn this firsthand.
No, you are attempting to see delusion as truth by employing semantics, while simultaneously rationalizing it to yourself and others.

You're a kid, right? Like in his 30's? Have you ever played at the top of the national stage, with the people who are the behind the puppet politicians? Give me a break young one, take your childish techniques and see if the people on the street corners may buy them.

[torchbearer]

No, you are attempting to see delusion as truth by employing semantics, while simultaneously rationalizing it to yourself and others.

You're a kid, right? Like in his 30's? Have you ever played at the top of the national stage, with the people who are the behind the puppet politicians? Give me a break young one, take your childish techniques and see if the people on the street corners may buy them.

just pointing out- the "i'm older than you" or "you aren't old enough to know anything" argument is weak. as weak as the argument you are countering.
the question should be- who here has either ran a campaign or been a candidate for public office.
they would know more about the difference of the election politics and policies.
if you want i can give you a real world example of how they are different.

[InterestedParticipant]

just pointing out- the "i'm older than you" or "you aren't old enough to know anything" argument is weak. as weak as the argument you are countering.
the question should be- who here has either ran a campaign or been a candidate for public office.
they would know more about the difference of the election politics and policies.
if you want i can give you a real world example of how they are different.
I agree with the bolded part of your statement. I slipped.

But the important point is not about whether one has been part of a campaign, it is about being honest, and explaining things how they are. Not assuming that the people that you are talking to are too stupid to understand, so that one has to 'sugar coat' if for them because the candidate/politician 'knows what is best.'

What is being argued here is the same crap Plato/Socrates argued in Athens, when they tried to destroy Athenian Democracy by claiming that the people were too stupid to govern themselves (see more at this thread (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=2518049&postcount=18)).

This is basically what Matt is saying, except he is attempting to disguise it through semantics.... and this is what I have a problem with.

[Matt Collins]

No, you are attempting to see delusion as truth by employing semantics, while simultaneously rationalizing it to yourself and others.uhh... not exactly. :rolleyes:


You're a kid, right? Like in his 30's? Have you ever played at the top of the national stage, with the people who are the behind the puppet politicians? Give me a break young one, take your childish techniques and see if the people on the street corners may buy them.
You asked the question, you answer it first. How old are you - What are your credentials? :confused: