Is the GOP dead when it comes to liberty?

[RCA]

With all the booting of liberty Republicans from the GOP, do you think the party is dead? When I say dead, I mean dead to liberty.

[BillyDkid]

Well, they sure did all they could do to squash the only candidate promoting liberty in the last go around.

[__27__]

Yep, and the litmus that pretty much requires you be a neo-con. The sooner we abandon the GOP the better IMO.

[Reason]

GOP is dead to liberty

/vote Judge Andrew Napolitano for president!

[LibertyEagle]

We have a chance to BECOME the GOP. If we do not do that, then yes, it will not change. But then, we only have ourselves to blame.

From what I have seen, all or most of our liberty candidates are running in GOP primaries.

Help them if you can, and for God's sake, don't sit on the sidelines.

[Reason]

We have a chance to BECOME the GOP. If we do not do that, then yes, it will not change. But then, we only have ourselves to blame.

From what I have seen, all or most of our liberty candidates are running in GOP primaries.

Help them if you can, and for God's sake, don't sit on the sidelines.

Key word would be "candidates".

If we can successfully get them elected then maybe the GOP isn't completely worthless.

We shall see.

[LibertyEagle]

Key word would be "candidates".

If we can successfully get them elected then maybe the GOP isn't completely worthless.

We shall see.

Yes and the more of us that are active in the GOP and have leadership positions, the more that we can help them.

No one said it was going to be easy, right? We have to be tireless and unrelenting.

We have not yet begun to fight!!

[Kludge]

If the GOP dies, the US is dead -- there WILL be collapse as there will be no chance of any type of gridlock. There's no competitive alternative. We can't abandon it and start over. There isn't time.

Look at these economic predictions if we DON'T legislate a stimulus. -- er....

[Matt Collins]

See this:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=2427953

[Oyate]

We have a chance to BECOME the GOP. If we do not do that, then yes, it will not change. But then, we only have ourselves to blame.

From what I have seen, all or most of our liberty candidates are running in GOP primaries.

Help them if you can, and for God's sake, don't sit on the sidelines.

You make a good case, but this is not a new argument. In the long term, if the GOP dies, the movement will continue. If alternative parties start looking better, that will become clear with time.

[Anti Federalist]

Of course it's dead to real liberty and constitutional reforms.

A false choice duopoly only works if both sides of the duopoly agree on most issues of real substance.

[andrewh817]

This whole system is dead when it comes to liberty because it's all based on taking people's money to do things they don't want, or in Ron Paul's case, taking stolen money to try to stop the government from stealing. When Gerald Celente said there would be a rise of a "third party system", I don't think he meant political party.......

[dr. hfn]

It won't be dead when we finish taking it over!

[Matt Collins]

It won't be dead when we finish taking it over!
I agree. I think that brute force is the only way because they are kicking us out every chance they get.

[ronpaulhawaii]

It won't be dead when we finish taking it over!

:D - Taking it back!


I agree. I think that brute force is the only way because they are kicking us out every chance they get.

Not true, a RP guy on one of our county committees just got elevated to chairman... :D

[dr. hfn]

Run for office, and win.

[Grimnir Wotansvolk]

I see much more potential in the union of the Libertarian and Green parties than anything else

[Liberty Star]

Yes.

[Gordon LeCompte Bolmer]

Do you think that the Democratic Party is dead to liberty? Isn't the Democrat Establishment only slightly worse (or better) than the Republican Establishment? What makes you think that the displacement of the Establishment in one party would be any easier than it would be in the other? The Neocon mafia and the Rahm Emanuel types are cut from the same cloth.

You'd stand just as good of a chance, by attacking the duopoly from the outside, and knocking off one of them—it doesn't matter which one—as you'd have in trying to coopt one of them from within. The duopolists' big lie will be, with obvious self-interest: "Third parties never win." The reality, however, is that a new party succeeds in establishing itself about once a century or so. We are overdue. You would be putting your energies to better use in the building a new, genuine "Libertarian" party. A successful American Libertarianism would serve as the leading edge for an international movement of Libertarian parties.

I find it hard to believe, that a new political generation is going to spend its youthful energies, in simply cleaning out the garage for the preceding generation(s). It might very well do that, but that would be a waste.

[davesxj]

Do you think that the Democratic Party is dead to liberty? Isn't the Democrat Establishment only slightly worse (or better) than the Republican Establishment? What makes you think that the displacement of the Establishment in one party would be any easier than it would be in the other? The Neocon mafia and the Rahm Emanuel types are cut from the same cloth.

You'd stand just as good of a chance, by attacking the duopoly from the outside, and knocking off one of them—it doesn't matter which one—as you'd have in trying to coopt one of them from within. The duopolists' big lie will be, with obvious self-interest: "Third parties never win." The reality, however, is that a new party succeeds in establishing itself about once a century or so. We are overdue. You would be putting your energies to better use in the building a new, genuine "Libertarian" party. A successful American Libertarianism would serve as the leading edge for an international movement of Libertarian parties.

I find it hard to believe, that a new political generation is going to spend its youthful energies, in simply cleaning out the garage for the preceding generation(s). It might very well do that, but that would be a waste.
Quoted for the god damn truth.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

He is correct, though he overlooks one thing. The game is rigged. First, we have to take over at least somewhat either party and change the voting, ballot, and electoral laws to allow for competition. As it is right now, they have a monopoly pretty much on politics. I hope people don't get too sucked into that we have to take one party over completely or in some majority fashion, that is false, we have to change the electoral laws, plain and simple.

Gordon makes an exquisite post, though.

[heavenlyboy34]

qft. The Establishment is so entrenched that education on even the most basic principles of liberty will take multiple generations, IMO. It's hard to get people off of welfare/warfare and onto freedom. :(


Do you think that the Democratic Party is dead to liberty? Isn't the Democrat Establishment only slightly worse (or better) than the Republican Establishment? What makes you think that the displacement of the Establishment in one party would be any easier than it would be in the other? The Neocon mafia and the Rahm Emanuel types are cut from the same cloth.

You'd stand just as good of a chance, by attacking the duopoly from the outside, and knocking off one of them—it doesn't matter which one—as you'd have in trying to coopt one of them from within. The duopolists' big lie will be, with obvious self-interest: "Third parties never win." The reality, however, is that a new party succeeds in establishing itself about once a century or so. We are overdue. You would be putting your energies to better use in the building a new, genuine "Libertarian" party. A successful American Libertarianism would serve as the leading edge for an international movement of Libertarian parties.

I find it hard to believe, that a new political generation is going to spend its youthful energies, in simply cleaning out the garage for the preceding generation(s). It might very well do that, but that would be a waste.

[andrewh817]

I agree. I think that brute force is the only way because they are kicking us out every chance they get.

Are you serious? This isn't the 1770's you know............
Back then it was muskets vs bayonets and nearly every civilian was armed (for obvious reasons). Now it's a handgun here and there vs shotguns, tear gas, bulletproof vests..... Need I go on?

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Are you serious? This isn't the 1770's you know............
Back then it was muskets vs bayonets and nearly every civilian was armed (for obvious reasons). Now it's a handgun here and there vs shotguns, tear gas, bulletproof vests..... Need I go on?

Actually, there is more AR-15, AR-10, etc. out there than you think. Secondly, there are a lot of "illegal" weaponry out there also. If push came to shove and we had to fight for our rights or else get thrown into FEMA camps or executed, I think we would prevail. Though that's not what he is talking about....at least I don't think so.

[andrewh817]

Why don't we just start a Rationalist party in which rationality is the core principle.... and taxes are voluntary, and there is no violence involved...... oh wait, that's not a political party it's a charity.

[Stary Hickory]

The GOP is leaps and bounds better than the Democratic party. Not exactly saying much, but it is the truth.

[MN Patriot]

...
You'd stand just as good of a chance, by attacking the duopoly from the outside, and knocking off one of them—it doesn't matter which one—as you'd have in trying to coopt one of them from within. The duopolists' big lie will be, with obvious self-interest: "Third parties never win." The reality, however, is that a new party succeeds in establishing itself about once a century or so. We are overdue. You would be putting your energies to better use in the building a new, genuine "Libertarian" party. A successful American Libertarianism would serve as the leading edge for an international movement of Libertarian parties.
..

If the Libertarian Party were run by competent people, they would have a fabulous chance of putting the Republican Party out of business.

The Republicans are total failures. The socialist agenda marches on. What do the Republicans do? Attempt to latch on their coat tails and get a piece of the fascist's plunder.

Very few Republicans talk about ending the income tax. Many of them can't imagine governing without it. The are Marxists. I'm not sure who is more reprehensible: the commie Democrats or the Republicans who pretend to oppose Marxism.

Ultimately we need a third party, the Libertarian Party is my first choice, that will put the Republicans out of business so that Americans have a clear choice: socialist slavery and tyranny or freedom and prosperity.

[Met Income]

the gop is leaps and bounds better than the democratic party. Not exactly saying much, but it is the truth.

o rly?

[Theocrat]

We have a chance to BECOME the GOP. If we do not do that, then yes, it will not change. But then, we only have ourselves to blame.

From what I have seen, all or most of our liberty candidates are running in GOP primaries.

Help them if you can, and for God's sake, don't sit on the sidelines.

In the time it would take for us to successfully "become the GOP," we could have gathered enough supporters and voters for a more principled and consistent third party, like the Constitution Party.

[Isaac Bickerstaff]

In Minnesota, libertarian Republicans hold somewhere between 30 and 50 percent of the party--and we accomplished this even with all the "purists" staying home and crying about how it will never happen.

Sheesh. . . If you spent a tenth of the energy on positioning yourself in the GOP that you spend wailing about how it will never work, we could have this country turned around in two years. I want to hear less whining and more supporting of the liberty Republicans who have put themselves out there-- like Matt. Maybe the GOP wouldn't be able to kick out principled libertarians if all the wannabes just grew a pair and started supporting us.

I don't know if you've noticed, but they have stopped ignoring us, they have stopped laughing at us, and now they are fighting us. The next step is us winning. We can do it without all the wannabes, but it would be easier with a little help.

[Stary Hickory]

o rly?

Yes they are. Right now they are the only thing standing between a complete socialist/fascist takeover of this country. Socialism is the direct opposite of freedom. There is no doubt the Republicans have some pro business fascist leaning among their ranks, however they are nothing compared to the complete government takeover the Democrats want.

I am not for Republicans really....just saying we should be honest. There is nothing left for freedom lovers among Democrats. Sometimes there is a minor cry here and there for drug legalization....maybe but other than that Democrats are oppressive fiscally and socially. The left has turned into a fascist/socialist radical party. There is not one person there I can support....not even half heartedly.

Amongst Republicans there are some freedom lovers, some misguided and confused or plain ignorant. Others who are just as bad as Democrats. But all in all from a freedom standpoint it is easier to get Republicans back on track than the left...they are all but lost. People here try and say that the fascist/socialist democratic party is just as bad as the Repubican party...when that is not the case.
For sure Republicans have done much to earn our hatred and distrust but I find no comparison to the Democratic party who want to regulate every single thing we do....they want to take all that we have and direct our actions as if they are some sort of god.

If the Republican party could get rid of the crazy warmongers and confused pro business fascists they would be very close to what I wanted in a party, as long as they legislated the way they preach...limited government and more freedom for the individual.

[catdd]

Basically we have to expose the neocon agenda for what it is and continue to drive home the point that it runs contrary to GOP principles whilst flooding the party with liberty candidates.

[MN Patriot]

In Minnesota, libertarian Republicans hold somewhere between 30 and 50 percent of the party--and we accomplished this even with all the "purists" staying home and crying about how it will never happen.

Sheesh. . . If you spent a tenth of the energy on positioning yourself in the GOP that you spend wailing about how it will never work, we could have this country turned around in two years. I want to hear less whining and more supporting of the liberty Republicans who have put themselves out there-- like Matt. Maybe the GOP wouldn't be able to kick out principled libertarians if all the wannabes just grew a pair and started supporting us.

I don't know if you've noticed, but they have stopped ignoring us, they have stopped laughing at us, and now they are fighting us. The next step is us winning. We can do it without all the wannabes, but it would be easier with a little help.

That would be the first step: attempt to reform the Republicans. If if works, great. If not, then we need a credible alternate plan that would put fear in the hearts of the Republicans.

A new third party, the Liberty Constitution Party would initially take votes away from the Republicans. The Republicans would be irrelevant from that point forward. Sure, the Democrats might hold a lock on power for a couple of election cycles, but they will continue loosing credibility as they destroy the economy and attempt to enslave us into a world government.

Each Republican would then have to choose what to do:

Join the Democrats.
Continue running as an irrelevant Republican who will probably lose and enable the Democrats to win.
Quit politics entirely.
Join the new political party of freedom.


I have yet to hear ANY Republican (besides Ron Paul) say we need to get rid of the income tax. I think that is a good litmus test; do you support abolishing the income tax? Will you introduce and support legislation to ending the income tax and reducing the size of the government?

[Isaac Bickerstaff]

Agreed. The Republican party needs us more than we need them, but if we dump the party too soon, the people that we are winning over will fall back into their neo-con ways.

[thomj76]

I would state this:

It is my personal experience that if one conducts themselves with intelligence and balance, and is respectful (at least on behalf of the subject matter of the American Constitution) and thinks things through before they act or speak, then good things come of that.

I realize that each county will have the same and different dynamics. I have also found that what happens in one area can and often does have an impact on others.

When one is acting in their belief of what liberty means, it effects others that support the same cause. From day one in Alachua County, Florida that is tone that we supported and with help and service to the County Republican Executive Committee, we have been invited with open arms. I have also seen REC meetings that have been a complete disaster, due in large part to the words of people in another county.

Those experiences should make one think. What Next...If I make this statement, do this action what will happen next. If one can picture what the outcome will probably be, then it might serve as a good gauge for whether or not to do it.

[klamath]

If liberty minded voters don't have the numbers to change the Republican party they sure as hell don't have the numbers to start a winning third party.
Whether or not you like it the American people is what you have to work with. Show me the great numbers of liberty minded people roaming the streets of America. Don't tell me they are disinfranchised voters and if we only had a liberty party they would all come flocking to it. Any poll you look at shows that the general American polls are more supportive of the gemmy state than the likely voter polls.
If you have the numbers you can win over the republican party if you don't and you try and force change without the backing you will get kicked out, simple as that.
The Libertarian party is only more liberty minded in some areas than the GOP and other areas is even less, so.

[speciallyblend]

If liberty minded voters don't have the numbers to change the Republican party they sure as hell don't have the numbers to start a winning third party.
Whether or not you like it the American people is what you have to work with. Show me the great numbers of liberty minded people roaming the streets of America. Don't tell me they are disinfranchised voters and if we only had a liberty party they would all come flocking to it. Any poll you look at shows that the general American polls are more supportive of the gemmy state than the likely voter polls.
If you have the numbers you can win over the republican party if you don't and you try and force change without the backing you will get kicked out, simple as that.
The Libertarian party is only more liberty minded in some areas than the GOP and other areas is even less, so.

wrong if you formed a new party/brandname(state or national) that included a ron paul platform that united voters from the ron paul republicans to ron pauls dems to indys and uniting the tea party and cp/lp leaders and members.Then you would have a viable 2nd party that would surpass the failed 3rd party gop.. the idea you cannot create a uniting party and new brandname is 100% false. the republican party is a prime example. what we need to make sure is we leave the neo-con powers to be in the new failed 3rd party gop.

We are gonna run someone i know against the republican in our county,since the gop will not allow any other reindeers to play in their game. the gop will live or die,more like die because of their failure to change their platform and issues. they have no vision or future in our county if they continue on their failed path. i will look forward to ousting a few republicans from office in 2010/2012. use whatever party you can locally dem or republican or 3rd party. hold them all accountable.. if the gop lives or dies in your county or state .that really depends on the gop.

the gop is like trying to sell the scarlet letter to voters to wear. In my activist work the regular voter in colorado views the gop as a plague(added a lil drama but you get the point. might want to warn voters to wear garlic;)

I cannot tell you what might happen in Colorado,but things could get interesting if the gop does not shape up fast,honestly the gop is still kinda of clueless. They have to make many adjustments to their platform before many republicans and younger republicans and voters can take the gop seriously. The younger voters and the 30-50 yr olds are not buying what the gop is trying to sell.... let the gop alienate themselves if they will not listen to what the ron paul platform and republicans are saying and have been saying for yrs and will for yrs to come..