Real politics is about precinct organizing, not sign waves or YouTube clips [Archive]

paulitics

11-25-2009, 01:09 PM

I didn't like the tone of the article. I agree, that going forward we need to do the things as suggested, as well as some of the things we did in the past that were effective.

But 2 years ago, this was not possible without explosive grassroots activism, esp a vibrant online community. The numbers simply were not there, critical mass had not been achieved. The money had not been raised.

The money bombs, blimps, etc got our message out and grew the movement from practically nothing, to what it is now. Even the mainstream media had to take notice.

The online activism is the wave of the future, so no I don't agree that the youtube videos were done in vain. I would say that the majority of us are here in large part because the message of libertarianism can't be censored on the internet.

To scoff at millions of dollars raised in one day to an obscure candidate that was at 1% in polls sounds quite pretentious and ungrateful to me. I'm not sure why he takes a bitter tone.

LittleLightShining

11-25-2009, 01:21 PM

I didn't like it, either. Glad I'm not the only one.

paulpwns

11-25-2009, 01:26 PM

I thought it was written in a poor tone. Disrespectful and quite unappreciative.

Reason

11-25-2009, 01:28 PM

Steve Bierfeldt is the Director of Development for Campaign for Liberty.

JoshLowry

11-25-2009, 01:29 PM

But 2 years ago, this was not possible without explosive grassroots activism, esp a vibrant online community. The numbers simply were not there, critical mass had not been achieved. The money had not been raised.

The money bombs, blimps, etc got our message out and grew the movement from practically nothing, to what it is now.

To scoff at millions of dollars raised in one day to an obscure candidate that was at 1% in polls sounds quite pretentious and ungrateful to me. I'm not sure why he takes a bitter tone.

+1

This movement was barely on the radar when Ron announced his campaign.

Our numbers are growing and I would say most of us went out and voted. He does have a point though. Elections are won by taking over your precincts. Sign waving does play a big part. Even the winning campaigns spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on signs.

Austin

11-25-2009, 02:34 PM

Superb article. Despite some of the complaints here, this article is truth.

angelatc

11-25-2009, 02:38 PM

Whatever. However, I seem to recall that most us of us went to the campaign and said "We want to win!" and they sent us to Meetup, essentially saying "Sorry, we're really busy. Organize yourself."

How wonderful that now, 2 years later, they're coming up with the plan they assured us they already had.

And I'm in a state where the paid State Coordinators blew off our county organizational meeting at the last minute, to attend a sign wave.

Sorry, I want my money back. I am so sorry that a single penny went to fund the CFL staffers.

LittleLightShining

11-25-2009, 02:43 PM

Elwar

11-25-2009, 02:44 PM

The next day, about 75 percent of them do not show up to vote.

Ya, like the people who go to listen to Ron Paul speak and hold up signs didn't vote...

We went out and voted for Ron Paul even when he wasn't on the ballot in the General election.

constituent

11-25-2009, 02:50 PM

," he preaches to the shrinking choir.

evilfunnystuff

11-25-2009, 03:03 PM

fuck that dooshbag

wizardwatson

11-25-2009, 04:38 PM

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/functions/printfriendly.php?article=389

http://www.yaliberty.org/yar/blueprint-for-revolution

CFL doesn't seem to have the agorist approach anywhere on the radar. It's either political reform or bust.

angelatc

11-25-2009, 05:10 PM

And now they want to take the meetups away!

Really?!? I hadn't heard that!

Take a lesson from Freecycle, and change the name of the group ASAP.

angelatc

11-25-2009, 05:13 PM

," he preaches to the shrinking choir.

Right!

Our ranks aren't growing. Glenn Beck's ranks are growing.

tangent4ronpaul

11-25-2009, 05:47 PM

Steve Bierfeldt is the Director of Development for Campaign for Liberty.

Well that explains a lot...

oh - and the last time I talked to the MD CFL leadership, we were up to 33 whole precinct leaders! We have 1,670 precincts in the state... That's working really well, isn't it? :rolleyes:

No, we were as successful as we were and saw that exponential growth specifically because we did all those things this guy says were worthless. The only point I sort of agree with him on is that sign waves have limited usefulness, other than judging popular support - ie: how many honks, waves and thumbs up you get. Berma shaves, OTOH are useful because you can actually deliver message.

Supporters also like sign waves - social thing and a sign of solidarity.

-t

nayjevin

11-25-2009, 06:08 PM

The only thing effective in politics is each individual doing what best suits their interests and talents. Always learning from past mistakes, becoming more efficient, and keeping an open mind.

evilfunnystuff

11-25-2009, 06:27 PM

the only thing effective in politics is each individual doing what best suits their interests and talents. Always learning from past mistakes, becoming more efficient, and keeping an open mind.

bingo ;)

LittleLightShining

11-25-2009, 06:40 PM

Really?!? I hadn't heard that!

Take a lesson from Freecycle, and change the name of the group ASAP.
You will hear it soon, though I'm not sure where C4L in your state stands on it. Your folks are pretty tied into national.

Well that explains a lot...

oh - and the last time I talked to the MD CFL leadership, we were up to 33 whole precinct leaders! We have 1,670 precincts in the state... That's working really well, isn't it? :rolleyes:

No, we were as successful as we were and saw that exponential growth specifically because we did all those things this guy says were worthless. The only point I sort of agree with him on is that sign waves have limited usefulness, other than judging popular support - ie: how many honks, waves and thumbs up you get. Berma shaves, OTOH are useful because you can actually deliver message.

Supporters also like sign waves - social thing and a sign of solidarity.

-tYep :(

The only thing effective in politics is each individual doing what best suits their interests and talents. Always learning from past mistakes, becoming more efficient, and keeping an open mind.
Amen.

jmdrake

11-25-2009, 06:47 PM

And now they want to take the meetups away!

Me, too, Angela. Me, too.

How can "they" take the Meetups away? That's essentially impossible because the Meetups are paid for by local organizers. I know because I'm one of them. And frankly I think Meetup is overpriced. I wish the 2008 campaign had kept up the "precinct captain" website it had up during the 2008 campaign. The phone banking and block walking we did through that was the most productive thing we did. Right after that was going to conservative events organized by others (such as pro life events) and campaigning for Paul. "Sign waving" was a waste of time in my opinion. Long after the campaign was over people who saw my Ron Paul bumper sticker would ask me "Yeah? Who is that Ron Paul guy? I would see the signs but never knew what it was about." Most people simply aren't going to "Google Ron Paul" once they finish their drive home.

Regards,

John M. Drake

JoshLowry

11-25-2009, 06:50 PM

Good points John.

LittleLightShining

11-25-2009, 07:01 PM

How can "they" take the Meetups away? That's essentially impossible because the Meetups are paid for by local organizers. I know because I'm one of them. And frankly I think Meetup is overpriced. I wish the 2008 campaign had kept up the "precinct captain" website it had up during the 2008 campaign. The phone banking and block walking we did through that was the most productive thing we did. Right after that was going to conservative events organized by others (such as pro life events) and campaigning for Paul. "Sign waving" was a waste of time in my opinion. Long after the campaign was over people who saw my Ron Paul bumper sticker would ask me "Yeah? Who is that Ron Paul guy? I would see the signs but never knew what it was about." Most people simply aren't going to "Google Ron Paul" once they finish their drive home.

Regards,

John M. Drake

Copyright infringement is one way. They don't want local groups using other sites. I can't go into detail right now but it's coming.

MsDoodahs

11-25-2009, 07:06 PM

Activists wave signs and create youtube clips.

Politicians work inside the machine to gain (usually incremental) change.

We have both here.

Helps to know which you are...

Matthew Zak

11-25-2009, 07:07 PM

Why was this moved? This is a GREAT point and we ought to be thinking about this NOW, not beginning 2 years from now.

angelatc

11-25-2009, 07:09 PM

. Long after the campaign was over people who saw my Ron Paul bumper sticker would ask me "Yeah? Who is that Ron Paul guy? I would see the signs but never knew what it was about." Most people simply aren't going to "Google Ron Paul" once they finish their drive home.

Regards,

John M. Drake

Most people turn on the radio in the car on their drive home, and turn on the TV after they get home.

It's too bad the campaign didn't use the money we sent them to campaign with to buy media spots.

"Ron Paul? Oh yeah, I saw those people waving that name on some signs today..."

jmdrake

11-25-2009, 07:23 PM

Most people turn on the radio in the car on their drive home, and turn on the TV after they get home.

It's too bad the campaign didn't use the money we sent them to campaign with to buy media spots.

"Ron Paul? Oh yeah, I saw those people waving that name on some signs today..."

Well our local group bought our own radio spots and newspaper ads. Our newspaper ads were nullified by the editorial page putting out a candidate list the Sunday before super Tuesday that didn't list Paul. I don't think every decision made by central command was on target. But we realized we weren't a "first tier" state and we weren't expecting the national campaign to buy ads here. I sign waved, sign bombed, sidewalk chalked, paraded on New Years eve with 200 people etc. But I wish I had done more precinct walking. I did phone banking also and didn't like that too well, but I was able to connect with people when I actually knocked on their doors. I guess everybody has to do what they are most comfortable with, but I personally felt the one-on-one contact to be the most effective.

Regards,

John M. Drake

angelatc

11-25-2009, 07:40 PM

I guess everybody has to do what they are most comfortable with, but I personally felt the one-on-one contact to be the most effective.

Regards,

John M. Drake

You are absolutely right, but no candidate has a the means to send a representative to every door.

In today's world, most people have their opinions formed by television and radio.

And an unfortunate side truth is that stations are reluctant to criticize candidates who are spending money on that station. Not spending money on advertising makes it easy for the talking heads to assassinate candidates, because there's no pressure from management to lighten up lest they lose the advertising revenue.

tangent4ronpaul

11-25-2009, 08:57 PM

Copyright infringement is one way. They don't want local groups using other sites. I can't go into detail right now but it's coming.

What an outstanding way to loose supporters and future donations! An overbearing HQ sending out mandates to VOLUNTEERS and using peoples own donations and dues to drag them into court... - this is going to work out well... :rolleyes:

People are already finding HQ controlling, overbearing and often incompetent - so many have walked. The censorship and keeping people compartmentalized kills communication and innovation. YAL already has a splinter group and this is likely to do the same to CFL. If the goal is to drive people off and further fragment the movement - they are doing an outstanding job!

In general isn't this the type of thing we are fighting? They are basically taxing with dues, then using those dues to oppress and force the taxed to it's will. Adopting the objectionable behaviors of your opposition is one incredible brainfart!

-t

jmdrake

11-25-2009, 10:52 PM

You are absolutely right, but no candidate has a the means to send a representative to every door.

In today's world, most people have their opinions formed by television and radio.

And an unfortunate side truth is that stations are reluctant to criticize candidates who are spending money on that station. Not spending money on advertising makes it easy for the talking heads to assassinate candidates, because there's no pressure from management to lighten up lest they lose the advertising revenue.

Well like I said, the Tennessean still stabbed us in the back by leaving Ron Paul off their candidate list even though we paid for ads that were running that weekend. So spending money is no guarantee of fair treatment. (The Tennessean did apologize and call this an "oversight"). I realize campaigns can't send a person to every door. They also typically don't have the resources to advertise in every media market.

And we had the means to get to a lot more doors than we did if half the people who joined the meetups were willing to do that kind of thing. In our area we never even reached the goal of having a captain for every precinct. Perhaps we shouldn't look at our meetups as large groups of people willing to do grunt work. But I can't blame the CFL for trying.

Regards,

John M. Drake

dr. hfn

11-26-2009, 12:04 AM

EVERYONE needs to get involved in their local GOP....Round 2 will be here before we know it...

angelatc

11-26-2009, 12:09 AM

And we had the means to get to a lot more doors than we did if half the people who joined the meetups were willing to do that kind of thing. In our area we never even reached the goal of having a captain for every precinct. Perhaps we shouldn't look at our meetups as large groups of people willing to do grunt work. But I can't blame the CFL for trying.

Regards,

John M. Drake

Yes, the lack of volunteers willing to actually do the leg work is a problem for every campaign. That's a big part of the reason that so much of the election is decided based on TV ads.

I don't blame the CFL for trying. I blame them for existing.

AuH2O

11-26-2009, 10:38 AM

The only thing effective in politics is each individual doing what best suits their interests and talents. Always learning from past mistakes, becoming more efficient, and keeping an open mind.

Upon what success is this opinion based? Because there is an wealth of evidence that there are very specific techniques and tactics proven "effective in politics."

This article is the unpleasant medicine that some folks overly devoted to online forums and symbolic gestures need to swallow.

tangent4ronpaul

11-26-2009, 11:34 AM

Upon what success is this opinion based? Because there is an wealth of evidence that there are very specific techniques and tactics proven "effective in politics."

This article is the unpleasant medicine that some folks overly devoted to online forums and symbolic gestures need to swallow.

OH BS! 15 hours making and hanging 40 banners on overpasses will reach tens of thousands. Someone spending a week producing a rockin youtube vid will reach that to millions. How many doors can you knock on in a year?

Put a blimp up and you have reached tens of millions - directly and via ancillary media coverage.

-t

tangent4ronpaul

11-26-2009, 12:55 PM

blimp

LibertyEagle

11-26-2009, 08:04 PM

Well that explains a lot...
-t

Wasn't Steve Bierfeldt the person who stood up to the TSA and won?
http://www.google.com/search?q=bierfeldt+tsa&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

dgr

11-26-2009, 08:31 PM

As an outsider, from reading the post , it seems like you have political consulants , or professional campaigners, now in charge of things.
I say this because the blame the voters and deaf ear to supporter of a non blessed candidate, is what has the GOP and RNC in this fight for control.

ingrid

11-26-2009, 09:48 PM

I stopped reading at "the next day, about 75 percent of them do not show up to vote."

If you are at a campaign rally with a homemade sign in the cold, there's a 99% chance that you are going to vote. In fact, many of the Ron Paul supporters I knew actually changed parties so they could vote for him in the primary...

nayjevin

11-28-2009, 02:21 AM

Upon what success is this opinion based?

Total spectrum success requires work in all spectrums.

Because there is an wealth of evidence that there are very specific techniques and tactics proven "effective in politics."

I don't mean to take away from this point at all. There are people very good at those specific things, GOTV, appealing to lifelong political insiders etc. To win an election, the tried and true is extremely important to focus upon - and not enough of us got outside our personal comfort zones to do some of the important, traditional things necessary.

However, if Aravoth would have been knocking on doors the entire campaign, we would have been just as screwed. There is a balance, and the part I didn't mention in my above post is that it also takes honesty and effort to go 'above and beyond' what one is generally comfortable doing.

It is also important I think to recognize that the goal of winning the election at hand does not exist in a vacuum. Losing campaigns can change the course of history - by the extent to which minds are changed - even when ballot choices are not. Many of my relatives did not vote for Ron Paul, but see the world a LOT differently than before I got into this thing.

This article is the unpleasant medicine that some folks overly devoted to online forums and symbolic gestures need to swallow.

There's truth to both sides. Had we all gone straight GOTV all the time, perhaps Ron could have won, perhaps not -- but he certainly would have gotten more votes. The long-term effect of the non-traditional methods are of value as well (all those videos are still floating around).

Neither approach should be discouraged, when effective. Hence, do what you do best, with an effort at pushing your own envelope.

LittleLightShining

11-28-2009, 07:44 AM

What an outstanding way to loose supporters and future donations! An overbearing HQ sending out mandates to VOLUNTEERS and using peoples own donations and dues to drag them into court... - this is going to work out well... :rolleyes:

People are already finding HQ controlling, overbearing and often incompetent - so many have walked. The censorship and keeping people compartmentalized kills communication and innovation. YAL already has a splinter group and this is likely to do the same to CFL. If the goal is to drive people off and further fragment the movement - they are doing an outstanding job!

In general isn't this the type of thing we are fighting? They are basically taxing with dues, then using those dues to oppress and force the taxed to it's will. Adopting the objectionable behaviors of your opposition is one incredible brainfart!

-t

My thoughts exactly. I know this isn't the organization I've spent the last year building.

I've been accused of being a naysayer about C4L but this has been a long time coming. Watch what happens to expiring Ron Paul and C4L meetups. Have a state site outside of the national's machine? Have you been approached to sell yet? It's happening.

tangent4ronpaul

11-28-2009, 08:47 AM

WTF???? - this thread has now been moved twice? Where is it headed next?

-t

Imperial

11-28-2009, 02:56 PM

There are two purposes for volunteers: True, you must get them to spread the message in the most effective means possible, but the other part is to get them excited and willing to turn out. You don't piss off your active people- that is politics 101. CFL hasn't figured that out yet.

ingrid

11-28-2009, 10:41 PM

I've been accused of being a naysayer about C4L but this has been a long time coming.

Heh, I still remember you basically being a cheerleader for them when all those C4L threads were popping up when they first came out..

Watch what happens to expiring Ron Paul and C4L meetups.
In my state, it seems like every MD subgroup is setting up a way to communicate off the official website such as new websites, google groups, splinter facebook groups, email lists, etc. I think if the website was easier to navigate that people would be using it more, instead of turning to other internet media. I have dsl and that website is a pain to use.

LittleLightShining

11-29-2009, 03:44 AM

Heh, I still remember you basically being a cheerleader for them when all those C4L threads were popping up when they first came out..

In my state, it seems like every MD subgroup is setting up a way to communicate off the official website such as new websites, google groups, splinter facebook groups, email lists, etc. I think if the website was easier to navigate that people would be using it more, instead of turning to other internet media. I have dsl and that website is a pain to use.I wanted it to work. I believed in what the C4L was proposed to be. Now I'm sure it's not.

I used to use the website but I don't anymore. They keep track of how often you log in, how often you check your inbox... this is a "liberty" group?

ingrid

11-29-2009, 10:16 AM

I wanted it to work. I believed in what the C4L was proposed to be. Now I'm sure it's not.?
I think the main purpose all along has been to grow the C4L in terms of membership. That's usually ends up being 75% of the conversation. Though I have noticed recently that the MD group has gone more blatantly partisan.

I used to use the website but I don't anymore. They keep track of how often you log in, how often you check your inbox... this is a "liberty" group?
That's true, I had forgotten about that. They have been doing that for a long time.

I was thinking...at the last Maryland statewide meeting at the Northeast Regional Conference, they were telling us how to donate to the state organization and gave us the P.O. Box. One of the guys, Dave, said the Harford group was pulling in $500 a month at their C4L meetings. It was the first I heard about it and I remember thinking that most people would rather donate to the state (or local groups) than the national. I always get letters from the national C4L asking for money, I wonder now if their decision is a financial one.

Matt Collins

12-02-2009, 05:31 PM

Copyright infringement is one way. They don't want local groups using other sites. I can't go into detail right now but it's coming.And you really mean "trademark infringment" ;)

But may I ask how you know about this? :confused:

Matt Collins

12-02-2009, 05:32 PM

EVERYONE needs to get involved in their local GOP....Round 2 will be here before we know it...
:rolleyes: That's working out really well:
http://www.campaignforliberty.com/blog.php?view=29719

nayjevin

12-04-2009, 05:26 AM

Put together a statement to the CFL modeled after the Declaration of Independence? Maybe that's a bit harsh ;)

An appeal to CFL that amounted to a public request for a civil meeting of the minds between CFL brass and thoughtful individuals, with Ron included, would give the opportunity for good ideas to win out. Transparency works.

LittleLightShining

12-04-2009, 08:13 AM

And you really mean "trademark infringment" ;)

But may I ask how you know about this? :confused:What difference does it make how I know? Am I right or wrong?

Put together a statement to the CFL modeled after the Declaration of Independence? Maybe that's a bit harsh ;)

An appeal to CFL that amounted to a public request for a civil meeting of the minds between CFL brass and thoughtful individuals, with Ron included, would give the opportunity for good ideas to win out. Transparency works.If only...

Matt Collins

12-04-2009, 08:53 PM

What difference does it make how I know? Am I right or wrong?I went to d/l their logo to use on the TNCFL website the other day and there are several pages of legal language.

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/functions/getlogo.php
(must be logged in)

This is something they have to do in order to protect their trademark.

SteveBierfeldt

12-22-2009, 07:33 PM

It seems this thread may have become more focused on a few different issues, however if anyone is interested in the piece I wrote, is interested in feedback, or is curious as to my thought process behind it, I am happy to discuss it with them.

On this board or via email.

- Steve
SteveBierfeldt@gmail.com
Steve@CampaignForLiberty.com

Reason

12-22-2009, 07:36 PM

Agorism

12-22-2009, 11:46 PM

I think in the long-run, the current politicians don't even matter.

Rothbard used to be a one-man team, practically founding the Libertarian movement when he founded CATO and Mises, and Ron Paul is just an out growth of that movement.

So to think it's ALL about organizing and politicking is silly.

InterestedParticipant

12-24-2009, 12:59 AM

And now they want to take the meetups away!
For a brief moment in time there was an organically developing movement arising from the public ranks. Now we are all witnessing the fracturing and dismantling of everything and anything that might be used as a foundation for its continued operation or growth.

Toss it all out and start over. It's all been infected.