Palin Supporters Are Just As Dumb As Palin Herself...

[Reason]

YouTube - Norah O'Donnell Stumps Palin Supporter By Asking About Palin's Support Of Bailouts (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjovbveUgtc)

[Liberty Star]

I highly doubt that applies to all her supporters, many of her supporters are probably more bright than she is. Many might be ignorant about her true worth or their own chemicals and emotions that draw them to a politician.

[MRoCkEd]

Yep.

[sofia]

These Sarah-bots are as dumb as rocks......but I dont recall Odonnell sticking mikes into stupid Obama cultists faces and embarassing them...

double standard

[AuH20]

If Palin had any self-respect, she would have removed herself from VP candidacy as soon as McCain endorsed the bailout. She can't be trusted as presidential material. At most she could be a cheerleading VP for Ron Paul. ;)

[Reason]

VP for Ron Paul. ;)

/vomit

[AuH20]

YouTube - Norah O'Donnell Stumps Palin Supporter By Asking About Palin's Support Of Bailouts (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjovbveUgtc)

It's more of a cultural connection as well. It's very similar to why Obama connected with so many of the left. People latch onto these celebrities that talk and dress like they do.

[AuH20]

/vomit

If we could get Ron Paul in the White House, I'd take Palin in a heartbeat. Let her be VP. They're useless anyway,

[WClint]

I am seeing the appeal, the more the left hates her.

[messana]

She's about as informed about politics as the rest of the country apparently.

[AuH20]

And get this, Palin supports comprehensive immigration reform. A total sellout.

[Liberty Star]

If Palin had any self-respect, she would have removed herself from VP candidacy as soon as McCain endorsed the bailout. She can't be trusted as presidential material. At most she could be a cheerleading VP for Ron Paul. ;)

She could just as easily be VP for Bush or Obama, don't leave the list incomplete.

She has defended torture for Bush/Cheney cabal and Bailouts that Obama supported too. Just tell her there is good financial return and she's in and will call it 'god's plan' too to market it.

I didn't mean to imply that all high on god religious folks are money hungary political prostitutes but people like her bring bad name for good God people.

[evilfunnystuff]

If we could get Ron Paul in the White House, I'd take Palin in a heartbeat. Let her be VP. They're useless anyway,

tell that to lyndon johnson

[Lovecraftian4Paul]

We are so screwed in 2012 if it's Palin vs. Obama. Seems like they really use the re-election of incumbent President campaigns to reinforce the old Republican/Democrat, Left/Right duopoly. The rhetoric and identities of left and right rose to a near feverish pitch in the 2004 election. I expect the same to happen with Obama and an opponent like Palin.

[Dieseler]

Calling people dumb is a great strategy.

[LibertyMage]

Calling people dumb is a great strategy.

+1

[GunnyFreedom]

left on the 'tubes:

Sarah Palin is NOT a Constitutionalist!!! My God people, she is a Neocon in an attractive wrapper! The reason the left is going after Palin is because they WANT the right to rally around an easily defeatable candidate!

What is wrong with America? Have we learned /nothing/ from the Bush lies and the Obama lies? It's time to elect the TRUTH and INTEGRITY in Washington DC, it's time to elect Ron Paul!

[NoHero]

Not the best strategy, but if you support this woman, there is just no hope for you in terms of being capable of rational thought. You can't debate these types of people. They want something shiny, not your silly books.

[GunnyFreedom]

These Sarah-bots are as dumb as rocks......but I dont recall Odonnell sticking mikes into stupid Obama cultists faces and embarassing them...

double standard

this.

Sarahbots are pretty stupid, Obamatons are even stupider.

[Dianne]

Call me paranoid... but i cannot help but think that she is a democratic plant.... actually who in their right minds would truly believe she is qualified to server as POTUS... much like the African dude Obama... who in their right minds would have ever elected him?

These are all games... is it now the biggest retard gets to take this country down?

[heavenlyboy34]

left on the 'tubes:

Sarah Palin is NOT a Constitutionalist!!! My God people, she is a Neocon in an attractive wrapper! The reason the left is going after Palin is because they WANT the right to rally around an easily defeatable candidate!

What is wrong with America? Have we learned /nothing/ from the Bush lies and the Obama lies? It's time to elect the TRUTH and INTEGRITY in Washington DC, it's time to elect Ron Paul!


Exactly true. She did an interview on Hannity's TV show tonite. I suggest any who trust her listen to it. It will change your mind(s), I'm quite sure.

[Goldhunter27]

I only watched half, it's too embarrassing.

[LibertyEagle]

Guys, do we really want to alienate the onlookers who kinda like Palin? The people in that video are talking about the Constitution and limiting the federal government. They are people we want to attract, not run away.

[LibertyEagle]

Lol the supporters probably don't know much about the constitution.

And you're basing this on what, exactly?


Why are they running to Palin for an answer?

Well, the way to win them over is damn sure not to insult the hell out of them.


This is what happens, hijacking the message and replacing it with a neocon.
She is who is most visible right now. If we don't like it, it is up to us to change it by getting out there and working our asses off. Like so many already are.

[GunnyFreedom]

Guys, do we really want to alienate the onlookers who kinda like Palin? The people in that video are talking about the Constitution and limiting the federal government. They are people we want to attract, not run away.

If they are as unprincipled as the subjects in the OP video, then yes.

On the other hand, people who support Palin because they honestly believe she is conservative and anti-bailout need to be disabused of that notion. Sarah Palin puts on a good show, BUT SHE IS NOT ONE OF US. Someone who supports Palin because they are principled and GENUINELY BELIEVE that she is a Conservative and anti-bailout, may well change their minds having seen the video in the OP, and then be grateful to us for calling her out.

She is as much a big-government liberal Republican Neocon as Bush and McCain. She just ties it all up in a 'pretty' wrapper.

[NoHero]

Guys, do we really want to alienate the onlookers who kinda like Palin? The people in that video are talking about the Constitution and limiting the federal government. They are people we want to attract, not run away.

If they truly believe in limited government, I'd hope they would look at the reasons stated on this board to why Palin isn't the person for them. And, I would like for them to please overlook mine and others' very cynical outlook on this whole ordeal. We've just seen these trojan horses too many times, and it's getting rather old.

[LibertyEagle]

If they truly believe in limited government, I'd hope they would look at the reasons stated on this board to why Palin isn't the person for them. And, I would like for them to please overlook mine and others' very cynical outlook on this whole ordeal. We've just seen these trojan horses too many times, and it's getting rather old.

Check out the title to this thread. Do you honestly think they would listen with an open mind, when they have been called DUMB. Get real.

You do not win people over by calling them stupid.

[GunnyFreedom]

Maybe add "Some of" in front of the title, but I still think it's wrong. Palin isn't dumb, that's just the folksy-conservative small government wrapper, covering a big government neocon trotskyite liberal heart.

[NoHero]

Check out the title to this thread. Do you honestly think they would listen with an open mind, when they have been called DUMB. Get real.

yeah, but the media insulting her is their main reason for backing her... maybe they'll give this forum some extra going-over

perhaps, the site can start a sub-forum along the lines of converting palin supporters without insults, just honest debate?

[Dreamofunity]

I'm not even going to lie; if 2012 comes down to Obama vs Palin I may have to scrap my write in for Ron Paul again and vote Obama. I don't want to, but if she were to win... I don't know, I don't think I could handle watching her be a total embarrassment constantly - at least now I don't have to pay attention to her.

I'll probably just move, far, far, far, far away.

[Athan]

Calling people dumb is a great strategy.
+1

That is why I just compliment her ass. It looks sooooo nice... Nice ass Palin. Mmmm...
I never like to bash the girl. I wouldn't vote for her, but I'd still hit it.

[YumYum]

+1

That is why I just compliment her ass. It looks sooooo nice... Nice ass Palin. Mmmm...
I never like to bash the girl. I wouldn't vote for her, but I'd still hit it.

You need to get out of the house and meet some people.

[bunklocoempire]

left on the 'tubes:

Sarah Palin is NOT a Constitutionalist!!! My God people, she is a Neocon in an attractive wrapper! The reason the left is going after Palin is because they WANT the right to rally around an easily defeatable candidate!

What is wrong with America? Have we learned /nothing/ from the Bush lies and the Obama lies? It's time to elect the TRUTH and INTEGRITY in Washington DC, it's time to elect Ron Paul!

A big yep and a you-betcha. It's like a friggin puppet show, or maybe pro wrestling without the talent.

Bunkloco

[BlackTerrel]

Most American's don't follow politics so this isn't really surprising. American Idol gets 30 million viewers, Monday Night Football gets 20 million, and the "highest rated program in cable news" gets 3 million.

[qh4dotcom]

I'm not even going to lie; if 2012 comes down to Obama vs Palin I may have to scrap my write in for Ron Paul again and vote Obama. I don't want to, but if she were to win... I don't know, I don't think I could handle watching her be a total embarrassment constantly - at least now I don't have to pay attention to her.

I'll probably just move, far, far, far, far away.

You'd betray the good doctor by doing that...and your vote is too insignificant anyway...it's not going to be a tiebreaker swing vote that keeps Palin away from the White House...why not stay at home on Election Day?

Obama would be a total embarrassment too if it weren't for his teleprompter.

[TheConstitutionLives]

YouTube - Katie Couric interviews Sarah Palin - One week after Hannity (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raxZsEVo9tU)

[PreDeadMan]

That video that the OP posted was just pretty funny you wear an anti bailout shirt and you support Palin, yet you don't realize she voted for the bailouts. I agree that calling the Palin supporters dumb wont help convert them to our side.

What we need to do is take the rhetoric they say they blurt about the constitution and limited government they are just saying that because the other party is in power, if Bush was still in power or McCain was in they wouldn't even be mentioning limited government or the constitution most likely. Since they keep on mentioning the constitution we should show them Dr. Paul's voting record he is 100 % constitutional stumps over all the republicans in that aspect and he truly is a small government fiscal conservative what the republicans used to stand for. Also we should explain to the Palin supporters that the majority of the current republican party advocates the same interventionist foreign policy as the democrats lol (therefore proving the left and right paradigm is just false these days) if they truly are for limited government and say they are fiscal conservatives then they must be real about it.

[GunnyFreedom]

That video that the OP posted was just pretty funny you wear an anti bailout shirt and you support Palin, yet you don't realize she voted for the bailouts. I agree that calling the Palin supporters dumb wont help convert them to our side.

What we need to do is take the rhetoric they say they blurt about the constitution and limited government they are just saying that because the other party is in power, if Bush was still in power or McCain was in they wouldn't even be mentioning limited government or the constitution most likely. Since they keep on mentioning the constitution we should show them Dr. Paul's voting record he is 100 % constitutional stumps over all the republicans in that aspect and he truly is a small government fiscal conservative what the republicans used to stand for. Also we should explain to the Palin supporters that the majority of the current republican party advocates the same interventionist foreign policy as the democrats lol (therefore proving the left and right paradigm is just false these days) if they truly are for limited government and say they are fiscal conservatives then they must be real about it.

Well yeah, all except for the part about the Governor of Alaska actually voting for the bailout. ;)

[Promontorium]

That video that the OP posted was just pretty funny you wear an anti bailout shirt and you support Palin, yet you don't realize she voted for the bailouts.

Where did Sarah Palin vote? The VP candiate's governor commitee?


TO EVERYONE You want to find dumb people, throw a rock. You want to find dumb people to make any cause or concern look bad, hire someone to walk to (insert anywhere) and have them interview (insert almost anyone).

This thread is actually worse than the people who judge Ron Paul because a Nazi, or a pimp, supported his campaign.

[GunnyFreedom]

Where did Sarah Palin vote? The VP candiate's governor commitee?


TO EVERYONE You want to find dumb people, throw a rock. You want to find dumb people to make any cause or concern look bad, hire someone to walk to (insert anywhere) and have them interview (insert almost anyone).

This thread is actually worse than the people who judge Ron Paul because a Nazi, or a pimp, supported his campaign.

Well, there is a little more point to this exercise, and that is that the American body politic actually wants what Ron Paul and we have to offer, as evidenced by the interviewee's own words -- but they have simply been fooled into wrongly believing that Sarah Palin will provide that for them.

I just watched the extended interview with Lou Dobbs and John Stewart, and John made a grievous error in judgment. John points to the rhetoric that got Bush elected - lower taxes, smaller government, less government interference - and claims that those were the policies that have damaged America. The reality is that AMERICANS WANT those policies, but Bush was just a liar.

That's the disconnect. Americans want what Sarah is selling, but Sarah is a liar. Americans want what Bush was selling, but Bush was a liar. Americans want what Obama was selling, but Obama is a liar.

So this is more about hilighting that the interviewee is incapable of discerning truth from propaganda, which is not at all really like attacking Ron Paul for having taken a donation from a skinhead. In that case, it is the attacker who is unable to discern truth from propaganda, not the supporter, as it is in this case with Palin.

Palin is saying all the right things, but it's a lie. Bush said all the right things, but it was a lie. Obama said all the right things, but it was a lie.

Ron Paul says all the right things, even more than those clowns, and he is telling the TRUTH. Those with any kind of discernment at all, know it.

[jmdrake]

YouTube - Norah O'Donnell Stumps Palin Supporter By Asking About Palin's Support Of Bailouts (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjovbveUgtc)

AAAAARRGGG! THAT IS PAINFUL TO WATCH!

I'm sick and tired of Palin groupies trying to tell the rest of us "the media makes Sarah Palin look stupid". Sarah Palin does it to herself. She said the bailout was about "tax cuts". Dufus dad and the end who didn't know what the bailout was originally for or the name of the fed chair should know that "tax cuts" were never a part of the bailout. I don't know if he thought that. But the bimbo he supports apparently did.

That said I feel sorry for these people. They honestly believe Sarah "bridge to nowhere" Palin is for small government. Maybe she wanted to be, but to be on John McCain's team she swallowed the big government bait hook line and sinker. And the constitution isn't just about restricting the size of government. It's also about restricting the power of government. No constitutionalist would support the Patriot act.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[KAYA]

Check out the title to this thread. Do you honestly think they would listen with an open mind, when they have been called DUMB. Get real.

You do not win people over by calling them stupid.

We have a rational on here.;)

The reason why so many Ron Paul supporters are marginalized is because of threads like this. If we want Ron Paul's ideals to gain more support its not going to happen by bashing, ridiculing, and alienating constituents who support the same basic ideals but perhaps gravitate to less than favorable candidates in our opinion.

Just face it, if any of you would like to see Ron Paul actually elected president in 2012 (considering he runs) then we will have to appeal to the McCain voters and even some Obama voters in order to win. Ok? We are not doing our cause any good by calling potential supporters dumb.

[KAYA]

That video that the OP posted was just pretty funny you wear an anti bailout shirt and you support Palin, yet you don't realize she voted for the bailouts. I agree that calling the Palin supporters dumb wont help convert them to our side.

What we need to do is take the rhetoric they say they blurt about the constitution and limited government they are just saying that because the other party is in power, if Bush was still in power or McCain was in they wouldn't even be mentioning limited government or the constitution most likely. Since they keep on mentioning the constitution we should show them Dr. Paul's voting record he is 100 % constitutional stumps over all the republicans in that aspect and he truly is a small government fiscal conservative what the republicans used to stand for. Also we should explain to the Palin supporters that the majority of the current republican party advocates the same interventionist foreign policy as the democrats lol (therefore proving the left and right paradigm is just false these days) if they truly are for limited government and say they are fiscal conservatives then they must be real about it.

Wait, you say its funny that the Palin supporter didn't realize she voted for the bailout. Guess what? She didn't vote for the bail, she's not in congress and doesn't have a vote. She was the VP and as such forced to stand behind McCain, that does not translate to voting for or even supporting the bailouts. She was supporting her running mate which was her obligation as VP.

[jmdrake]

Wait, you say its funny that the Palin supporter didn't realize she voted for the bailout. Guess what? She didn't vote for the bail, she's not in congress and doesn't have a vote. She was the VP and as such forced to stand behind McCain, that does not translate to voting for or even supporting the bailouts. She was supporting her running mate which was her obligation as VP.

The interviewer asked if Sarah Palin supported the bailout. And she did. And it made her look stupid because she (Palin) claimed the bailout was about "tax cuts" and "jobs" and "health care". And I understand she was being the "loyal VP". But she could have said "John McCain and I disagree on this issue". Or she could have said "Well Katie, this is an issue that McCain and Obama actually agree on so it's not a deciding factor in this campaign". Or she could have said a number of things besides "it's about tax cuts, jobs and healthcare". Even saying "I'm not sure how the bailout will help the economy so I'll leave that to the economists" would have been more intelligent.

As for being careful not to offend Palin supporters so that they'll "come over to our side" why is that same deference not shown to Obama supporters or anyone else for that matter?

[catdd]

I just to spoke with one of her supporters and she said that Sarah had to adjust her own policies to accommodate McCain. This is bull.... because she is still supporting the same status quo without McCain.

[sofia]

Generally speaking, you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.....however, I think Sarah bots need to be bashed over the head and ridiculed.

When one is brainwashed into a cult, gentle persuasion usually won't get them out of the cult.

The Evangelical, culturally conservative Sarah-bots need to know what a lousy mother she is and that she cheated on Todd with his business partner.

The fiscal conservatives need to be reminded that she left Wasilla in debt, originally supported the bridge to nowhere, and supported the Bush bailout. (which she still defends)

The woman QUIT her responsibilities just so she could give $100 K speeches and sell her ghost written garbage.

[The Deacon]

A big yep and a you-betcha. It's like a friggin puppet show, or maybe pro wrestling without the talent.

Bunkloco

I wouldn't mind Palin in the WWE, at least

[The Deacon]

The interview subject: "I think if you asked her today, she was not for the bailout"

No kidding! I think if you asked G.W. Bush today, he ws NOT in favor of torture and Gitmo.

[georgiaboy]

wonder if the reporter is a Ron Paul supporter? :)

The fact that the folks in line basically share our views is awesome. Why aren't we handing out C4L stuff to the people waiting in these lines? They seem to get the message, we just need them to get on board with selecting candidates that will drive policy to match the rhetoric.

[KAYA]

The interviewer asked if Sarah Palin supported the bailout. And she did. And it made her look stupid because she (Palin) claimed the bailout was about "tax cuts" and "jobs" and "health care". And I understand she was being the "loyal VP". But she could have said "John McCain and I disagree on this issue". Or she could have said "Well Katie, this is an issue that McCain and Obama actually agree on so it's not a deciding factor in this campaign". Or she could have said a number of things besides "it's about tax cuts, jobs and healthcare". Even saying "I'm not sure how the bailout will help the economy so I'll leave that to the economists" would have been more intelligent.

As for being careful not to offend Palin supporters so that they'll "come over to our side" why is that same deference not shown to Obama supporters or anyone else for that matter?

I actually I said we do need to reach out to some of those who voted for Obama, otherwise we'll never win an election since Obama got the majority vote in 2008.

But I get what you are saying and here is the difference, the passionate Obama supporter believes in big government and redistribution of wealth which is the polar opposite of Ron Paul and his supporters' ideals. Palin supporters like Ron Paul supporters believe in limited government and free markets. Get it? Most Palin supporters and Ron Paul supporters share the same ideals, its just that we believe Ron Paul is the far superior candidate.

[The Deacon]

The fact that the folks in line basically share our views is awesome. Why aren't we handing out C4L stuff to the people waiting in these lines? They seem to get the message, we just need them to get on board with selecting candidates that will drive policy to match the rhetoric.

It has to be done, but it won't be easy. These type of people deny reality. They've been basically taught by Fox News and Limbaugh that Cheney-Bush are he-man, fiscal conservatives, and now Palin is the heir to this. I've been there, supporting Bush as recently as 2003. I don't know how the awakening happened for me, but it's just from reading more information and not listening to Limbaugh who has a financial incentive to keep the Democrats in power (along with just being plain wrong).

[jmdrake]

I actually I said we do need to reach out to some of those who voted for Obama, otherwise we'll never win an election since Obama got the majority vote in 2008.

But I get what you are saying and here is the difference, the passionate Obama supporter believes in big government and redistribution of wealth which is the polar opposite of Ron Paul and his supporters' ideals. Palin supporters like Ron Paul supporters believe in limited government and free markets. Get it? Most Palin supporters and Ron Paul supporters share the same ideals, its just that we believe Ron Paul is the far superior candidate.

The passionate Palin supporter believes in big government when it comes to foreign intervention and a domestic police state that's needed to "save us from the Islamofascists". Most Obama supporters and Ron Paul supporters share the same ideals when it comes to foreign policy and civil liberties. I know. I'm married to one. ;) She followed the Obama blog during the campaign and told me how many of his followers were very upset that Obama broke his pledge not to support warrantless wiretapping.

We do ourselves a dis-service when over identify with the right wing of the RepubliCrat party and act like they are somehow more like us than the left wing. I've some success with Obama supporters (wife included), but they find Sarah Palin totally laughable.

Regards,

John M. Drake

P.S. My (somewhat) Obama supporting wife is totally against cap and trade, government run health-care etc.

[LibertyEagle]

The interviewer asked if Sarah Palin supported the bailout. And she did. And it made her look stupid because she (Palin) claimed the bailout was about "tax cuts" and "jobs" and "health care". And I understand she was being the "loyal VP". But she could have said "John McCain and I disagree on this issue". Or she could have said "Well Katie, this is an issue that McCain and Obama actually agree on so it's not a deciding factor in this campaign". Or she could have said a number of things besides "it's about tax cuts, jobs and healthcare". Even saying "I'm not sure how the bailout will help the economy so I'll leave that to the economists" would have been more intelligent.

As for being careful not to offend Palin supporters so that they'll "come over to our side" why is that same deference not shown to Obama supporters or anyone else for that matter?

Calling people like Palin or Obama out on their stances on the issues, is all good. And the more we stick to the issues themselves, the more people will listen to what we have to say. When we sink to the level of personal insults, and I have done it too, we lose our effectiveness. And we have nothing whatsoever to gain by bashing their supporters. Because when we do that, we have hurt our chances of ever winning them over.

That said, jmdrake, I don't see how on earth you can compare Obama to Palin. Tell me, what that comes out of Obama's mouth is aligned with what RP believes? Palin, on the other hand, at least talks some of the same things. And no, I'm not a supporter of Palin.

[libertarian4321]

Guys, do we really want to alienate the onlookers who kinda like Palin? The people in that video are talking about the Constitution and limiting the federal government. They are people we want to attract, not run away.

You may be on to something.

Maybe if Ron Paul comes out in support of the wars and bail out, flashes some leg, and winks a few times, he will win the Palin fans over to his side!

[libertarian4321]

I wouldn't mind Palin in the WWE, at least

I think Palin would need to upgrade her interview skills before the WWE would take her.

[jmdrake]

Calling people like Palin or Obama out on their stances on the issues, is all good. And the more we stick to the issues themselves, the more people will listen to what we have to say. When we sink to the level of personal insults, and I have done it too, we lose our effectiveness. And we have nothing whatsoever to gain by bashing their supporters. Because when we do that, we have hurt our chances of ever winning them over.

That said, jmdrake, I don't see how on earth you can compare Obama to Palin. Tell me, what that comes out of Obama's mouth is aligned with what RP believes? Palin, on the other hand, at least talks some of the same things. And no, I'm not a supporter of Palin.

:rolleyes: Go back to the campaign. Obama said that as soon as he became president he would review all of Bush's executive orders and undo any he found unconstitutional. Obama promised to repeal NAFTA. Obama promised to end torture and secret detention. Obama promised to quit abusing executive privilege. Obama promised to end warrantless wiretapping. Obama promised to bar lobbiests from his administration. Obama promised to use diplomacy and talk to our enemies rather than always using war as a first resort. A lot of Obama's promises lined up with Ron Paul's positions. He was just lying his behind off. So is Sarah Palin. Fake liberals give lip service to sensible foreign policy and civil liberties. Fake conservatives give lip service to smaller government and free markets. They're all still fake.

Here is a WND article of broken Obama promises. It's by no means exhaustive. While a few go against Ron Paul's views, most line up.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=91286

Broken promise No. 1: 'Sunlight Before Signing' (Ron Paul has often talked about how the bills don't even get read)

Broken promise No. 2: Capital gains tax elimination (Ron Paul supports this)

Broken promise No. 3: New American jobs tax credit (Ron Paul supports cutting taxes in general)

Broken promise No. 4: Hiatus on 401(k) penalties (Haven't heard Ron talk about this, but sounds like a good idea)

Broken promise No. 5: 'No jobs for lobbyists' (Haven't heard Ron talk about this, but sounds like a good idea)

Broken promise No. 6: Earmark reform (Ron Paul would cut spending in general but isn't against earmarks. Rand is.)

Broken promise No. 7: Bring troops home in 16 months (Ron would have brought the troops home quicker than that.)

Broken promise No. 8: Sign 'Freedom of Choice Act' (Ron is against this)

Broken promise No. 9: $4,000 college credit (Not sure on Ron's position on this. Maybe against it as YAE - yet another entitlement)

Broken promise No. 11: Executive signing statements (Ron Paul specifically said that signing statements erode the constitution)

Regards,

John M. Drake

[The Deacon]

The passionate Palin supporter believes in big government when it comes to foreign intervention and a domestic police state that's needed to "save us from the Islamofascists". Most Obama supporters and Ron Paul supporters share the same ideals when it comes to foreign policy and civil liberties. I know. I'm married to one. ;) She followed the Obama blog during the campaign and told me how many of his followers were very upset that Obama broke his pledge not to support warrantless wiretapping.

We do ourselves a dis-service when over identify with the right wing of the RepubliCrat party and act like they are somehow more like us than the left wing. I've some success with Obama supporters (wife included), but they find Sarah Palin totally laughable.

Regards,

John M. Drake

P.S. My (somewhat) Obama supporting wife is totally against cap and trade, government run health-care etc.

The pluses with trying to convert the Left is that the cocoon is less tight than among the Right. The Right has Limbaugh and Fox News, while the left has Daily Kos and Olbermann. Limbaugh/Fox is way more popular than Kos/Olbermann, and Olbermann breaks from orthodoxy and criticizes Obama once in a while on issues like state secrets and indefinite detention. Fox and Limbaugh hardly ever broke from Bush when he was in office, which fostered the cocoon among Right-Wingers. Ron Paul and the Judge have been given expanded airtime only now that Democrats are in power.

The disadvantage with recruiting the left for us is that domestic/economic policy is the bread and butter for the majority of voters. Liberals may have issues with the unitary executive, secrecy, warrantless wiretapping, arrests without warrants, the wars, indefinite detention, etc. But for how many are foreign policy/civil liberties the biggest issue? We can attack Obamacare from a corporatist angle for them, but how many would support a Ron Paul health reform agenda? The best angle for the Left is probably the bailouts and Fed (inflation is a tax on the working class).

[jmdrake]

The pluses with trying to convert the Left is that the cocoon is less tight than among the Right. The Right has Limbaugh and Fox News, while the left has Daily Kos and Olbermann. Limbaugh/Fox is way more popular than Kos/Olbermann, and Olbermann breaks from orthodoxy and criticizes Obama once in a while on issues like state secrets and indefinite detention. Fox and Limbaugh hardly ever broke from Bush when he was in office, which fostered the cocoon among Right-Wingers. Ron Paul and the Judge have been given expanded airtime only now that Democrats are in power.

The disadvantage with recruiting the left for us is that domestic/economic policy is the bread and butter for the majority of voters. Liberals may have issues with the unitary executive, secrecy, warrantless wiretapping, arrests without warrants, the wars, indefinite detention, etc. But for how many are foreign policy/civil liberties the biggest issue? We can attack Obamacare from a corporatist angle for them, but how many would support a Ron Paul health reform agenda? The best angle for the Left is probably the bailouts and Fed (inflation is a tax on the working class).

Good point on the "cocoon". As for what's most important to Obama supporters...I guess it depends on the definition of Obama supporter. I know a lot of supporters who have "buyers remorse" because Obama hasn't delivered on what they expected him to do and they aren't sold on "Obamacare". There are the hardcore supporters who've fallen in behind the liar-in-chief but I don't think they are reachable. Obama's poll ratings have dropped dramatically. Those people are in a state of flux. I think we can pull some of them to our side.

[Dieseler]

This movement should be reaching out to supporters of all potential candidates with what our candidate has to offer.
Not insuring that they vote against this movements candidates because we are fucking snobby libertarian assholes.
We are once again Our Own Worst Enemy.
Grats Assholes.
Just my opinion.
Somebody link that fucking 30 something everyman cartoon again.

[Pepsi]

left on the 'tubes:

Sarah Palin is NOT a Constitutionalist!!! My God people, she is a Neocon in an attractive wrapper! The reason the left is going after Palin is because they WANT the right to rally around an easily defeatable candidate!

What is wrong with America? Have we learned /nothing/ from the Bush lies and the Obama lies? It's time to elect the TRUTH and INTEGRITY in Washington DC, it's time to elect Ron Paul!

The Neocons should all move to Israel and become citizens of Israel and never be allowed to come back to America. the Neolibs should all move to China, and become citizens of China and never be allowed to come back to America.

[Dieseler]

The Neocons should all move to Israel and become citizens of Israel and never be allowed to come back to America. the Neolibs should all move to China, and become citizens of China and never be allowed to come back to America.

Do you mean the actual Neocons and Neolibs themselves or their supporters who are just dumb enough according to most here that they could likely be influenced to support a Liberty candidate if they were given the facts?

[Pepsi]

Do you mean the actual Neocons and Neolibs themselves or their supporters who are just dumb enough according to most here that they could likely be influenced to support a Liberty candidate if they were given the facts?


the actual Neocons and Neolibs themselves.

[Dieseler]

the actual Neocons and Neolibs themselves.

OK.

[Dieseler]

Has this thread done our movement (Supposedly Liberty) any good whatsoever?
And if yes... How?
If no, then what movement has it benefited?

[amy31416]

Sounds to me like their hearts are in the right place, just not their brains--perhaps that can be remedied?

The only political groups that I thoroughly loathe are the neocons and socialists. I avoid them like the plague and don't have much patience for them.

[Pepsi]

We are so screwed in 2012 if it's Palin vs. Obama. Seems like they really use the re-election of incumbent President campaigns to reinforce the old Republican/Democrat, Left/Right duopoly. The rhetoric and identities of left and right rose to a near feverish pitch in the 2004 election. I expect the same to happen with Obama and an opponent like Palin.

I can see Palin and Cheny running on the same ticket, and wining it.

[dr. hfn]

WE need to convert these people...

[AuH20]

Sounds to me like their hearts are in the right place, just not their brains--perhaps that can be remedied?

The only political groups that I thoroughly loathe are the neocons and socialists. I avoid them like the plague and don't have much patience for them.

But despite the falsehoods that are routinely passed on this board, I'd say a fair portion of the republican mainstream are not what you would describe as "Neoconservative." A Neocon is an Irving Kristol type Fabian Socialist/Jacobin that encourages centralized control as well as military interventionism . If I had a dollar for every time the word "neocon' was misused in this forum, I'd be a millionaire. They're easily convertable with the right approach. I think many of them are confused by the state of affairs in this country due to the stanglehold by the media.

[Dieseler]

WE need to convert these people...
And they are convertible.
Obama supporters on the other hand are not, that is if there still are any Obama supporters and of course there are still Obama supporters out there.
If we continue as we are now Obama will win the Presidency with 38% of the vote in 2012 and that is not what we want.
The bad guys are hijacking our movement.

[Brian4Liberty]

They've been basically taught by Fox News and Limbaugh that Cheney-Bush are he-man, fiscal conservatives, and now Palin is the heir to this. I've been there, supporting Bush as recently as 2003. I don't know how the awakening happened for me, but it's just from reading more information and not listening to Limbaugh who has a financial incentive to keep the Democrats in power (along with just being plain wrong).

It is a learning experience. There is nothing wrong with the Palin supporters. But they are not political junkies, and they are just beginning to get interested. This is the first step to learning more. We can thank Palin for getting people started in the process.

When they learn more, and learn how they are being used and manipulated, they will become Ron Paul style Republicans. It's inevitable. It is a long road though. People don't change their perspective over night. And the mainstream media will do all they can to prevent them from learning more.

The best advise you can give a Palin supporter is for them to turn off Hannity forever, and turn on Glenn Beck. Beck is not correct about everything, and he's over-dramatic, but people should pay special attention to his shows about how the financial and economic system works.

A great example:

YouTube - Glenn Beck 20091117 Part 1/4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9FCdm6UYQM)
YouTube - Glenn Beck 20091117 Part 2/4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2gUG-Q8ocg)
YouTube - Glenn Beck 20091117 Part 3/4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4O_8MNE0P8)
YouTube - Glenn Beck 20091117 Part 4/4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hhb0CxQoWnE)

[amy31416]

But despite the falsehoods that are routinely passed on this board, I'd say a fair portion of the republican mainstream are not what you would describe as "Neoconservative." A Neocon is an Irving Kristol type Fabian Socialist/Jacobin that encourages centralized control as well as military interventionism . If I had a dollar for every time the word "neocon' was misused in this forum, I'd be a millionaire. They're easily convertable with the right approach. I think many of them are confused by the state of affairs in this country due to the stanglehold by the media.

I agree with you, but my point was that the people who have bought the neocon philosophy piss me off enough to know that I'm not a good candidate for reforming them.

These people believe they're conservative, yet support things that are anti-conservative and entirely unethical. I just don't have the patience for that type of person, I'm sure others do though, and I support their efforts.

[Dieseler]

This is win.
The people who would be drawn in by this are the people you must win over.
Stop scaring them away.
The bad guys are using the media to steal these potential Liberty supporters.
They are ripe, you must harvest now or forget it.
Do you see the media who stole your election last year calling Sarah Palin an idiot?
Why?
Because they know what they are doing.
They are planning your future for you.
They are shaping the minds of those who will defeat you.
Be humble or be devoured.
http://www.dailypaul.com/files/images/matt-1.jpg

http://www.dailypaul.com/files/images/matt-6.jpg

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

The biggest problem with Palin supporters is Foreign Policy. It's easy to convert them on the domestic economic side (relatively), but knocking down the Foreign Policy barrier is a tough one. Many Palin supporters also are Reaganites and buy desperately into the facade and talking points of Reagan and not his actions.

It is a tough road, but one we must drive down. It's certainly far-easier converting these "conservatives" to the once intellectually and principled minded Old Right (Classical Liberalism) than dealing with Obama supporters (Marxians). Getting them to Anarcho-Capitalism however is entirely up to them. I give them the reading material, they do the rest. :p

[The Deacon]

The biggest problem with Palin supporters is Foreign Policy. It's easy to convert them on the domestic economic side (relatively), but knocking down the Foreign Policy barrier is a tough one.

Of course they may not even need a foreign policy conversion if they want to support Rand Paul...:rolleyes::o

[Dieseler]

People are more worried about their money and their jobs than anything else right now.
The only point I'm trying to make is use whatever the target feels is important when discussing the Liberty movement.
Don't overwhelm the potential supporter with things they don't understand or deal with everyday. Don't appear as a radical in opposition or support for anything but be someone who presents a case for common sense ideas.
That is why I support the ideas and positions of Ron Paul.
Common sense.
I have never seen Ron Paul scare anyone away.
WWRPD?

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

People are more worried about their money and their jobs than anything else right now.
The only point I'm trying to make is use whatever the target feels is important when discussing the Liberty movement.
Don't overwhelm the potential supporter with things they don't understand or deal with everyday. Don't appear as a radical in opposition or support for anything but be someone who presents a case for common sense ideas.
That is why I support the ideas and positions of Ron Paul.
Common sense.
I have never seen Ron Paul scare anyone away.
WWRPD?

If it was Common Sense don't you think we'd be following it? Or that more people would be? Sadly, you must pierce the heart of these peoples views. Common Sense objections alone cannot do it. You need logic and reason, which I suppose is a euphemism for Common Sense...

If they think you are a radical then ask them if they think Thomas Jefferson was/is a radical. These people who laud our Founders, yet scoff their idea's are batty. Make the case based on logic. LOGIC.

[Dieseler]

If it was Common Sense don't you think we'd be following it? Or that more people would be? Sadly, you must pierce the heart of these peoples views. Common Sense objections alone cannot do it. You need logic and reason, which I suppose is a euphemism for Common Sense...

If they think you are a radical then ask them if they think Thomas Jefferson was/is a radical. These people who laud our Founders, yet scoff their idea's are batty. Make the case based on logic. LOGIC.

OK.
Whatever.
You have to point out that it is common sense that we need to be following.
Things are intentionally made complicated to fool the common man.
The Constitution vs The Healthcare Bill for instance.
Look at the definition of a derivative. ( The Financial term):confused:
You hand them something they are not going to read while the media hands them what they want to hear and see who comes out on top.
Why aren't you winning now?
You have to win before you can fix what is wrong.

You sometimes have to stoop down a little to understand what I'm saying.
Come down here and talk to me.
I can't understand what your saying way up there.
You must be better than me.
Should I follow someone who is better than me or someone who the media says is like me?
They don't teach American History or Economics (voodoo) in High School anymore.
We'll have to win an election to get that put back in the curriculum.
No child left behind, spit, spit, spit... There goes another one.
Carbon Copy Slaves of Complicated Financial Documents...

[Dieseler]

Bump cause I edited.

[Brian4Liberty]

The biggest problem with Palin supporters is Foreign Policy. It's easy to convert them on the domestic economic side (relatively), but knocking down the Foreign Policy barrier is a tough one.

That is sometimes difficult. The basic facts are this: war costs far too much in money and lives. It destroys our country just as fast as Obama's socialism. Our military is for fighting real wars against opposing armies. Not standing or driving around like sitting ducks, trying to police another country and protect their unpopular and corrupt leaders.

[Old Ducker]

The biggest problem with Palin supporters is Foreign Policy. It's easy to convert them on the domestic economic side (relatively), but knocking down the Foreign Policy barrier is a tough one. Many Palin supporters also are Reaganites and buy desperately into the facade and talking points of Reagan and not his actions.

It is a tough road, but one we must drive down. It's certainly far-easier converting these "conservatives" to the once intellectually and principled minded Old Right (Classical Liberalism) than dealing with Obama supporters (Marxians). Getting them to Anarcho-Capitalism however is entirely up to them. I give them the reading material, they do the rest. :p

The Christian right is pwned completely by the neo-cons. They value Israeli's fate more then that of their own country (god's will) and would like nothing else but to wage holy war on muslims everywhere. They despise us and are a lost cause. Pointing out the profuse contradictions in their positions just pisses them off.

[amy31416]

The Christian right is pwned completely by the neo-cons. They value Israeli's fate more then that of their own country (god's will) and would like nothing else but to wage holy war on muslims everywhere. They despise us and are a lost cause. Pointing out the profuse contradictions in their positions just pisses them off.

Unless, perhaps, people like Theocrat, Chuck Baldwin, LLS and others can come up with a strategy to bring them back to true conservatism--they were (I think) real conservatives at one point. Since I'm not religious, I try to stay out of the fray as I don't always understand it.

Something to think about.

[jmdrake]

This movement should be reaching out to supporters of all potential candidates with what our candidate has to offer.
Not insuring that they vote against this movements candidates because we are fucking snobby libertarian assholes.
We are once again Our Own Worst Enemy.
Grats Assholes.
Just my opinion.
Somebody link that fucking 30 something everyman cartoon again.

I agree. That said this forum is not the place to convert anybody! That's something that I've consistently found frustrating. This overemphasis of the importance of RPF. There's no way I would direct anybody here to learn anything about Ron Paul. I'd be afraid that the might end up clicking on some link arguing whether or not abortion was a "libertarian" position or what Ron Paul's position on gay marriage really is or some other issue that the movement is divided on.

I do believe in outreach. But outreach means reaching out. Getting in your car, going to some event where potential converts are and actually talking to people. Here's a thought. Show up at the next Tea Party and pass out fliers and/or DVDs promoting Ron Paul's position on health-care. I went into "opposition territory" during the campaign itself. For instance I went to a pro-life rally. (Not opposition territory per se since Ron Paul is pro life, but the TN pro-life organization endorsed Huckabee.) I got the chance to dispel the myth one potential voter had that Ron Paul supported gay marriage. (I pointed out he wants reserve that for the states). There were also people there that didn't know Dr. Paul's pro life position. I don't think we'll get far at Palin book signings, but we can make progress at places where Palin supporters might otherwise gather.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[Old Ducker]

Unless, perhaps, people like Theocrat, Chuck Baldwin, LLS and others can come up with a strategy to bring them back to true conservatism--they were (I think) real conservatives at one point. Since I'm not religious, I try to stay out of the fray as I don't always understand it.

Something to think about.


I wish them all the luck in the world. Here's a small sample of what they're up against:

Summiter wrote:
It's time for Dick Cheney to run for president. Sarah Palin can be his running mate. I'm dead serious here.

Old Ducker wrote:
My first impression was to laugh, but then I realized you're absolutely right. Palin is just another Neo-con. Oy!

Summiter wrote:
Like Sarah Palin. I want her to be president right after Cheney serves two terms. If Cheney doesn't run, which he probably won't, I'll vote for Palin.
Have a nice life.

[amy31416]

I wish them all the luck in the world. Here's a small sample of what they're up against:

Summiter wrote:
It's time for Dick Cheney to run for president. Sarah Palin can be his running mate. I'm dead serious here.

Old Ducker wrote:
My first impression was to laugh, but then I realized you're absolutely right. Palin is just another Neo-con. Oy!

Summiter wrote:
Like Sarah Palin. I want her to be president right after Cheney serves two terms. If Cheney doesn't run, which he probably won't, I'll vote for Palin.
Have a nice life.

You didn't approach it from any sort of Christian perspective though. I think that our Christians need to have a meeting or something and discuss these things and how to rebut the neocon/zionist arguments.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

You didn't approach it from any sort of Christian perspective though. I think that our Christians need to have a meeting or something and discuss these things and how to rebut the neocon/zionist arguments.

Christian Just War Theory.....

[talkingpointes]

I agree. That said this forum is not the place to convert anybody! That's something that I've consistently found frustrating. This overemphasis of the importance of RPF. There's no way I would direct anybody here to learn anything about Ron Paul. I'd be afraid that the might end up clicking on some link arguing whether or not abortion was a "libertarian" position or what Ron Paul's position on gay marriage really is or some other issue that the movement is divided on.

I do believe in outreach. But outreach means reaching out. Getting in your car, going to some event where potential converts are and actually talking to people. Here's a thought. Show up at the next Tea Party and pass out fliers and/or DVDs promoting Ron Paul's position on health-care. I went into "opposition territory" during the campaign itself. For instance I went to a pro-life rally. (Not opposition territory per se since Ron Paul is pro life, but the TN pro-life organization endorsed Huckabee.) I got the chance to dispel the myth one potential voter had that Ron Paul supported gay marriage. (I pointed out he wants reserve that for the states). There were also people there that didn't know Dr. Paul's pro life position. I don't think we'll get far at Palin book signings, but we can make progress at places where Palin supporters might otherwise gather.

Regards,

John M. Drake

I have brought two people here. And nothing is scary about this site. In all seriousness. People need to learn how to not jump to conclusions. The biggest reason I can't get more is because people see it as being "nerdy" and a great waste of time discussing such things. People that would be repelled by our topics would be no matter what. Sarah Palin fans that like her for superficial reasons most certainly wouldn't come here because of the mountains of information against her. If these same people have any intelligence they'll learn to get over it, so long as they want the truth. We need to stop debating whether we should openly discuss such topics. They should always be debated and a spade should always be called such. Sarah Palin is trash and should be called out... Yes, she is hot I just try to imagine her in a wookie suit or something.

[Dieseler]

Just show them the damn tractor.

[amy31416]

Christian Just War Theory.....

Yes! Stuff like that...and the family pic on the damn tractor. :)

[Old Ducker]

You didn't approach it from any sort of Christian perspective though. I think that our Christians need to have a meeting or something and discuss these things and how to rebut the neocon/zionist arguments.

Yeah, I should just stop engaging them. Pissing people off I have an aptitude for, diplomacy...not so much.

[Dieseler]

Yeah, I should just stop engaging them. Pissing people off I have an aptitude for, diplomacy...not so much.

Show them the tractor.
Somebody photoshop a cross on the front and mount a .50 Cal on the hood.
Lay a deer rifle in the crook of Dr. Pauls arm pointing up just behind the child in the forefront.
Play dirty, just play to win.
http://www.dailypaul.com/files/images/matt-6.jpg

[amy31416]

Yeah, I should just stop engaging them. Pissing people off I have an aptitude for, diplomacy...not so much.

Was it not Socrates who said "know thyself?" :p

Like I've said before, I avoid neocons and staunch socialists because they make me want to slap them and I lose perspective. That may change someday, but for now it's for the best that I don't get involved in any attempts to convert them. I should also stay away from recent converts because I could unravel the work that others have done.

[heavenlyboy34]

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. As long as the SarahBots help keep the ObamaBots at bay, I'm fine with them-for now.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. As long as the SarahBots help keep the ObamaBots at bay, I'm fine with them-for now.

Hey you just summed up our Foreign Policy! How's that working? :D:D:p

[bunklocoempire]

The biggest problem with Palin supporters is Foreign Policy. It's easy to convert them on the domestic economic side (relatively), but knocking down the Foreign Policy barrier is a tough one. Many Palin supporters also are Reaganites and buy desperately into the facade and talking points of Reagan and not his actions.

It is a tough road, but one we must drive down. It's certainly far-easier converting these "conservatives" to the once intellectually and principled minded Old Right (Classical Liberalism) than dealing with Obama supporters (Marxians). Getting them to Anarcho-Capitalism however is entirely up to them. I give them the reading material, they do the rest. :p

One point that gets 'em thinking is our soldiers dying for Muslim countries/governments, also our money going to these countries. You know, giving "freedom" to Muslims.

It's my experience that the Palin/current foreign policy supporter dislikes or has a fear of Muslims. If they don't like or distrust Muslims, why would they want to help any Muslim?

I'm not saying their is any logic to their reasoning, but suggest using their own "logic" to get them thinking.

EDIT: Love the tractor!

Bunkloco

[Zippyjuan]

From the Newsweek issue with her on the cover (quoting my own copy):

According to Gallop, Republicans are more likely to say they would consider viting for Palin for President (65%) than say she is qualified for president (58%)
So a bit over half of them think she is even qualified yet about two thirds would still vote for her. Scary. What is sad is that most voters are uninformed about any of the candidates and go for ones which seem nice.

[GunnyFreedom]

From the Newsweek issue with her on the cover (quoting my own copy):

So a bit over half of them think she is even qualified yet about two thirds would still vote for her. Scary. What is sad is that most voters are uninformed about any of the candidates and go for ones which seem nice.

o O

[jmdrake]

Hey you just summed up our Foreign Policy! How's that working? :D:D:p

Rule 1: The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Rule 2: The friend of my enemy is my enemy.
Rule 3: The friend of my friend is my friend.
Rule 4: The enemy of my friend in my enemy.

So what happens when the enemy of my friend is the enemy of my enemy or the friend of my enemy is the friend of my friend? I actually wrote a computer program to test this. It immediately froze up. :D

[BlackTerrel]

The Christian right is pwned completely by the neo-cons. They value Israeli's fate more then that of their own country (god's will) and would like nothing else but to wage holy war on muslims everywhere. They despise us and are a lost cause. Pointing out the profuse contradictions in their positions just pisses them off.

I think you're overstating things. They support Israel but is one in a number of issues. If you take the smart Ron Paul position which is "we stay neutral, it is not our business to get involved" we'll be ok.

Where we would get crushed is the "Israeli is the devil incarnate, the Palestinians/Iranians etc. are saints" argument that a number of the posters here advocate.

Our argument should be clear: Like every other country we support Israel's right to self determination. But it is not our business to get involved.

Ron Paul is himself a Christian after all.

[jmdrake]

I think you're overstating things. They support Israel but is one in a number of issues. If you take the smart Ron Paul position which is "we stay neutral, it is not our business to get involved" we'll be ok.

Where we would get crushed is the "Israeli is the devil incarnate, the Palestinians/Iranians etc. are saints" argument that a number of the posters here advocate.

Our argument should be clear: Like every other country we support Israel's right to self determination. But it is not our business to get involved.

Ron Paul is himself a Christian after all.

Well I've not seen anyone take the "Israel is Satan and all the Arabs are saints" position. I have seen people falsely accuse others of taking that position just because they think Palistians have a right to exist.

As for Iran, it was strongly leaning pro-USA before Bush put them on the "axis of evil" list. Under the previous Iranian president, Mohammed Hatami, Iran was part of the U.S. led coalition that drove that Taliban out of Afghanistan. Hatami also sent Bush a back channel offer to give up even a peaceful nuclear program and support for Hamas and Hezbollah in exchange for security guarantees that we would not attack Iran. The Bush administration snubbed him and that was a large reason why he lost and Amadinejad became president. So we did have the "regime change" Bush wanted. Only it went in the opposite direction of what would have been helpful. And just in case you think I'm making this up:

http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/jir/jir010315_1_n.shtml

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/showdown/themes/grandbargain.html

[AuH20]

I think you're overstating things. They support Israel but is one in a number of issues. If you take the smart Ron Paul position which is "we stay neutral, it is not our business to get involved" we'll be ok.

Where we would get crushed is the "Israeli is the devil incarnate, the Palestinians/Iranians etc. are saints" argument that a number of the posters here advocate.

Our argument should be clear: Like every other country we support Israel's right to self determination. But it is not our business to get involved.

Ron Paul is himself a Christian after all.

There is no need to lionize the arabs when they have a dubious track record as well. Very true. Stay neutral.

[Dieseler]

http://www.dailypaul.com/files/images/matt-1.jpg

[Liberty Star]

There is no need to lionize the arabs when they have a dubious track record as well. Very true. Stay neutral.


Arabs are our best friends right now due to ongoing Iraqi freedom collaboration projects that we're very haevily invested in and they got oil. Three things can get us out of this economic mess faster than all other bailout stimulus plans Obama adminstration is expermenting with:

- Get an Arab race PM elected in holy land as one state freedom solution by enforcing mandatory racial equality

- Importing enough Iraqi arabs and Palestinians in Alaska, Texas and NY so that in 5-10 years we have equal number of arabs and jews in Congress

- Get an Arab Palestinain elected as Governor of Palin's home state Alaska by 2016. Make it a Christian Palestinian since they love God's plans down there and Jesus was a Palestinian.


This could save trillions in foreign freedom projects.

That's one out of the box but economically sound way to go neutral in the battle of the foreign races.

[catdd]

The reason we lean towards the Muslims is because the American gov and the news media leans so far in favor of Israel and we have to balance things out.
I would think that should be clear enough without any explanation.

[BlackTerrel]

Well I've not seen anyone take the "Israel is Satan and all the Arabs are saints" position.

Take a look two posts below you. The guys solution the economic crisis is importing Arabs and electing them to the Senate and to become Alaska's governor. Also if we elect an Arab to NASA I am sure we'll colonize Mars by 2012.

Instead of singing the praises of Arabs and how they can fix our entire economic situation of we just elect them to our government how about we just don't take sides? It is a sound policy and one that many Americans can rally behind.

[BlackTerrel]

The reason we lean towards the Muslims is because the American gov and the news media leans so far in favor of Israel and we have to balance things out.
I would think that should be clear enough without any explanation.

Why is Obama's approval rating in Israel at 3%?

[GunnyFreedom]

Take a look two posts below you. The guys solution the economic crisis is importing Arabs and electing them to the Senate and to become Alaska's governor. Also if we elect an Arab to NASA I am sure we'll colonize Mars by 2012.

Instead of singing the praises of Arabs and how they can fix our entire economic situation of we just elect them to our government how about we just don't take sides? It is a sound policy and one that many Americans can rally behind.

There are none so blind as those who refuse to see. I have given up trying to point out the disparity that so many people on here levy against Israel. The post higher up was dead on -- take a neutral approach. Problem is some people will look directly at a horribly skewed bias, and conclude that it's 'neutral.' This is the same thing that MSNBC does with an intense liberal bias, and they fully believe themselves to be neutral. Yeah, I never expected to see that mindless nonsense amongst Paulers, but it has long since stopped shocking me by now. :(

I am certainly hoping that Liberty Star was being sarcastic, but I don't take anything for granted anymore. Suffice it to say that I agree with you, although it is a minority, it is a very VOCAL minority who have this intense "Israel-hate Palestine-love" thing going on that can be quite mindless indeed.

The last thing we need is for the more vocal segments of our movement to have easily identified mindlessness. For heaven's sake people, stay neutral on this one. REAL neutral, not this weird fake "Israel is satan and Palestine is good and holy, and you can trust me because I'm neutral on the issue" crap that seems to be in fashion here.

[The Deacon]

Here's the interview subject's blog with a comments section:

http://redwhiteandconservative.wordpress.com/

[catdd]

Why is Obama's approval rating in Israel at 3%?

Because they are spoiled brats? There's no being neutral or fair with Israelis; you are either with their zionistic approach or against it. But just look at America's attitude towards Muslims and then look at their attitude toward Israel. Most Americans don't give a damn WHICH Muslims were responsible for 9/11, they only care that they were Muslim.

Now, why did we invade Iraq?

[jmdrake]

Take a look two posts below you. The guys solution the economic crisis is importing Arabs and electing them to the Senate and to become Alaska's governor. Also if we elect an Arab to NASA I am sure we'll colonize Mars by 2012.

Instead of singing the praises of Arabs and how they can fix our entire economic situation of we just elect them to our government how about we just don't take sides? It is a sound policy and one that many Americans can rally behind.

That's obvious sarcasm.

Anyway "neutrality" is in the eye the beholder. Someone on my meetup angrily left after Ron Paul made this video because he thought Dr. Paul was being "biased against Israel". :rolleyes:

YouTube - Ron Paul on Gaza 1-3-09 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08gTWqWrI4M)

[jmdrake]

There are none so blind as those who refuse to see. I have given up trying to point out the disparity that so many people on here levy against Israel. The post higher up was dead on -- take a neutral approach. Problem is some people will look directly at a horribly skewed bias, and conclude that it's 'neutral.' This is the same thing that MSNBC does with an intense liberal bias, and they fully believe themselves to be neutral. Yeah, I never expected to see that mindless nonsense amongst Paulers, but it has long since stopped shocking me by now. :(

I am certainly hoping that Liberty Star was being sarcastic, but I don't take anything for granted anymore. Suffice it to say that I agree with you, although it is a minority, it is a very VOCAL minority who have this intense "Israel-hate Palestine-love" thing going on that can be quite mindless indeed.

The last thing we need is for the more vocal segments of our movement to have easily identified mindlessness. For heaven's sake people, stay neutral on this one. REAL neutral, not this weird fake "Israel is satan and Palestine is good and holy, and you can trust me because I'm neutral on the issue" crap that seems to be in fashion here.

I've seen plenty of "hate Palestine - love Israel" stuff here (even to the point of someone defending the Israeli attack on the U.S.S. Liberty :eek:) so it goes both ways. As far as the "biased media" I saw a lot more mainstream media reports post 9/11 of "dancing Palestinians" than it did the "dancing Israelis". The only media outlet that even gave such an angle any press was "fair and balanced" Fox News, and they quickly backed off without giving an explanation.

Anyway I'm sure people will never agree on this. Especially when we see this at Tea Parties.

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/5613/photoyen.jpg

Notice the size difference between the two flags. Note this was two days before July 4th.

[parocks]

We have a rational on here.;)

The reason why so many Ron Paul supporters are marginalized is because of threads like this. If we want Ron Paul's ideals to gain more support its not going to happen by bashing, ridiculing, and alienating constituents who support the same basic ideals but perhaps gravitate to less than favorable candidates in our opinion.

Just face it, if any of you would like to see Ron Paul actually elected president in 2012 (considering he runs) then we will have to appeal to the McCain voters and even some Obama voters in order to win. Ok? We are not doing our cause any good by calling potential supporters dumb.

Yeah. All of a sudden MSNBC is now a good news outlet? Back when Ron Paul was running we were against MSNBC, now we're for it? Was that live from the Palin event? Or did they ask questions of everyone, taking hours of footage, and put together the worst answers they could find? I'd bet it was the 2nd one. And in 2 years we have forgotten the tricks the MSM plays.

If the MSM felt they had to cover Ron Paul's supporters (they kinda have to cover Palin - they didn't have to cover Paul, and even when they should've, they didn't)
I'm certain they could make us look stupid and uninformed, and tack on weird, crazy, unhinged. That doesn't mean that we're stupid, uninformed, weird, crazy or unhinged, but, with editing, they can get that. I was in Manchester, NH 2 days before the NH primary. Many were marching outside the restaurant where Fox was holding some sort of forum. Snowballs were thrown at a Fox person (I don't remember who - Luntz? Hannity?). Point being, the MSM can tell the story it wants to tell, and the MSM doesn't like Paul or Palin.

[parocks]

The interviewer asked if Sarah Palin supported the bailout. And she did. And it made her look stupid because she (Palin) claimed the bailout was about "tax cuts" and "jobs" and "health care". And I understand she was being the "loyal VP". But she could have said "John McCain and I disagree on this issue". Or she could have said "Well Katie, this is an issue that McCain and Obama actually agree on so it's not a deciding factor in this campaign". Or she could have said a number of things besides "it's about tax cuts, jobs and healthcare". Even saying "I'm not sure how the bailout will help the economy so I'll leave that to the economists" would have been more intelligent.

As for being careful not to offend Palin supporters so that they'll "come over to our side" why is that same deference not shown to Obama supporters or anyone else for that matter?

Ron Paul is a Republican.
Sarah Palin is a Republican.
Obama is a Democrat.

[jmdrake]

Ron Paul is a Republican.
Sarah Palin is a Republican.
Obama is a Democrat.

And more people voted democrat in the last presidential election than republican. Whoever wins in 2012 will need some of those swing voters.

[AuH20]

And more people voted democrat in the last presidential election than republican. Whoever wins in 2012 will need some of those swing voters.

If there's high turnout, we're screwed. The democrats control the masses like no other.

[jmdrake]

If there's high turnout, we're screwed. The democrats control the masses like no other.

Well Obama's poll numbers are way less then 50% at this point so the masses are getting tired of him. :D I think there are a lot of good decent hardworking folks that were really disillusioned with Bush over the wars and the economy that and voted for "change" hoping for the best. Some realize they didn't get the "change" they expected. These people are in a state of flux. The neocons want them back and Obama wants to hang on to them. They need to be one of our key target audiences IMO.

[Dieseler]

If there's high turnout, we're screwed. The democrats control the masses like no other.

Yep and if Obama hasn't run off the ones that would leave him by now then they aren't going to leave him.


Well Obama's poll numbers are way less then 50% at this point so the masses are getting tired of him. :D I think there are a lot of good decent hardworking folks that were really disillusioned with Bush over the wars and the economy that and voted for "change" hoping for the best. Some realize they didn't get the "change" they expected. These people are in a state of flux. The neocons want them back and Obama wants to hang on to them. They need to be one of our key target audiences IMO.

I think the Conservatives, for lack of better description, who fell for hope and change can go our way. I just hope we don't end up in some sort of split the vote scenario that kills us.

[parocks]

Ron Paul is a Republican. That should factor into your analysis somewhere there.



The pluses with trying to convert the Left is that the cocoon is less tight than among the Right. The Right has Limbaugh and Fox News, while the left has Daily Kos and Olbermann. Limbaugh/Fox is way more popular than Kos/Olbermann, and Olbermann breaks from orthodoxy and criticizes Obama once in a while on issues like state secrets and indefinite detention. Fox and Limbaugh hardly ever broke from Bush when he was in office, which fostered the cocoon among Right-Wingers. Ron Paul and the Judge have been given expanded airtime only now that Democrats are in power.

The disadvantage with recruiting the left for us is that domestic/economic policy is the bread and butter for the majority of voters. Liberals may have issues with the unitary executive, secrecy, warrantless wiretapping, arrests without warrants, the wars, indefinite detention, etc. But for how many are foreign policy/civil liberties the biggest issue? We can attack Obamacare from a corporatist angle for them, but how many would support a Ron Paul health reform agenda? The best angle for the Left is probably the bailouts and Fed (inflation is a tax on the working class).

[PreDeadMan]

Ok geez I stand corrected please don't jump down my throat she didn't physically vote for the bailouts but she did SUPPORT them..... in essence if she was in congress or the senate she would have voted for it.

[parocks]

Has this thread done our movement (Supposedly Liberty) any good whatsoever?
And if yes... How?
If no, then what movement has it benefited?

Has this thread ... No.

Fans of Liberty or potential Fans of Liberty who are looking for a leader might be curious about the mental strengths of his or her followers. Fans / Potential Fans know full well about the biases of the MSM. Apparently many of Paul's fans circa Nov 2009 think that MSNBC isn't trying to do a hatchet job on Palin. Reasonable Fans / Potential Fans will likely think that the people here have suffered brain damage in the last couple of years. We knew that MSNBC was trying to marginalize Ron Paul and the cause of Liberty in 2007. But now some here think that Palin is stupid and MSNBC is on the level.

By the way, the reason the MSM is trying to damage Palin is because she's the strongest Republican candidate in 2012, the most likely to beat Obama in 2012.

They do the same thing every time. They try to tear down the strongest, most electable, most conservative Republicans. Allen and Santorum come to mind. They give a free ride to RINOs.

And it's not Fox vs Olbermann, it's Fox vs CNN/MSNBC/HN/ABC/CBS/NBC. Fox has more viewers than CNN, MSNBC, HN combined (but the Democrat networks, including ABC, NBC, CBS have more).

And Ron Paul is a Republican. If Ron Paul is going to win a Republican nomination for President, if he chooses to run in 2012, it might be a good idea to leave an impression that we don't hate Republicans more than Democrats here.

There's video somewhere of Palin saying that Ron Paul was cool.

[parocks]

Sarah Palin is trash and should be called out... Yes, she is hot I just try to imagine her in a wookie suit or something.

That's not weird, crazy or unhinged at all. /sarc

[Thrashertm]

Gotta love the Bank of America sign in the background after all the talk about bailouts.

[parocks]

And more people voted democrat in the last presidential election than republican. Whoever wins in 2012 will need some of those swing voters.

Assuming this site supports 100% a Ron Paul Presidential run in 2012, the first thing Ron Paul needs to do is to win the Republican nomination. That means he needs to have Republicans voting for him in the primaries. So, people who like Palin (Republicans) are much more necessary, because of the primary system, than people who like Obama (Democrats).

[BlackTerrel]

That's obvious sarcasm.

If he's being sarcastic then he keeps making the same sarcastic comment. He has advocated electing members of the Arab race to Congress and government positions as solutions to many of our woes before. I'm just the only one who has called him on it.

Somebody asked how we get the evangelical Christians who support Israel and make up about 50% of Republican voters on our side? The reality is we all know that there is no way Paul wins the primary without them.

The answer is you stress that Ron Paul is a Christian himself. And you say it's not that we're anti-Israel we just don't believe in getting involved over there.

[Dieseler]

Assuming this site supports 100% a Ron Paul Presidential run in 2012, the first thing Ron Paul needs to do is to win the Republican nomination. That means he needs to have Republicans voting for him in the primaries. So, people who like Palin (Republicans) are much more necessary, because of the primary system, than people who like Obama (Democrats).

See there, that's what I was thinking.
I mean I don't give a crap about Sarah Palin one way or another but I see no advantage to pissing someone off who does like her.
I know I'm going to have to convince these people that my guy, Paul / Johnson, whoever it ends up being, is a superior product on the issues alone.
If I start going into the Sarah is dumb argument they are gonna remember Olbermann's insults, immediately see red and slam the door on my toe.
:(

[parocks]

See there, that's what I was thinking.
I mean I don't give a crap about Sarah Palin one way or another but I see no advantage to pissing someone off who does like her.
I know I'm going to have to convince these people that my guy, Paul / Johnson, whoever it ends up being, is a superior product on the issues alone.
If I start going into the Sarah is dumb argument they are gonna remember Olbermann's insults, immediately see red and slam the door on my toe.
:(


If a Palin fan stumbles through here and sees what Paul fans think of Palin, a Palin fan will like Paul less. If Palin doesn't run in 2012, and Paul does, all of those Palin fans will go elsewhere - to Romney, Huckabee, etc., because people here have dumped on Palin.

If Ron Paul and his supporters are interested in winning Republican votes in 2012, attack Obama. Palin is popular in large part because she's a straight shooter at the one target that the Republicans want to hit, and that's Obama. Republicans don't really know her positions on many of the issues. They're hoping that she believes the same thing as they do. They do know that she is upfront is directly opposing Obama who they really really don't like.

If Palin is mentioned, she doesn't have the proven track record of limited government that Ron Paul does. Cut Taxes, Cut Spending. Less Government, More Freedom. Ron Paul is the best on that. Audit the Fed has proven to be popular, that's a winner.

This anti-war stuff does not win Republican votes. If Ron Paul does run in 2012, he won't have to mention the anti-war stuff much, because the anti-war people are already on board, and will participate in the moneybombs when he announces, probably shortly after the 2010 election. He won't have to fight his way from 3% to 8% in the polls, I'm guessing he'll be there or above at the start. He can shift focus from "how much was 9/11 our fault" to "I'm the true opposite of Obama".

[GunnyFreedom]

looks like the libtards have attacked the comments on this vid with a vengeance. Anybody who does not sound remotely like an Obamaton is getting seriously buried, no matter how reasonable they are posting. Typical liberal arrogance. :(

[Todd]

Basically. "I don't like the bailouts and the fact that the tax payer's are getting hosed, but hey...I'm running under John McCain and he likes them, therefore, I have to find a reason why they're fan flippin' tastic."

YouTube - Palin: Bailout is about healthcare! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npUMUASwaec)

[jmdrake]

If he's being sarcastic then he keeps making the same sarcastic comment. He has advocated electing members of the Arab race to Congress and government positions as solutions to many of our woes before. I'm just the only one who has called him on it.

Somebody asked how we get the evangelical Christians who support Israel and make up about 50% of Republican voters on our side? The reality is we all know that there is no way Paul wins the primary without them.

The answer is you stress that Ron Paul is a Christian himself. And you say it's not that we're anti-Israel we just don't believe in getting involved over there.

Well maybe he's retarded. That's possible. On the other hand Ely believes that Israel gunning U.S. sailors in lifeboats was "self defense" so it balances out.

[jmdrake]

Assuming this site supports 100% a Ron Paul Presidential run in 2012, the first thing Ron Paul needs to do is to win the Republican nomination. That means he needs to have Republicans voting for him in the primaries. So, people who like Palin (Republicans) are much more necessary, because of the primary system, than people who like Obama (Democrats).

Many states have open primaries, plus there is plenty of time between now and 2012 for people to switch parties. Independents made the difference for Obama. They can make the difference for Paul. You can't alienate people who voted for Obama in the hopes of winning the primary and then hope they'll vote for Paul in general election. Plus you risk running off people who already voted for Paul (like me) if there is a double standard.

[parocks]

Many states have open primaries, plus there is plenty of time between now and 2012 for people to switch parties. Independents made the difference for Obama. They can make the difference for Paul. You can't alienate people who voted for Obama in the hopes of winning the primary and then hope they'll vote for Paul in general election. Plus you risk running off people who already voted for Paul (like me) if there is a double standard.

I'd skip the antiwar as much as possible. Republicans don't like it and the ones that do are typically the "moderate / RINO" types who won't respond to Ron Pauls core message of a much smaller federal government. I'm not saying RP should change his position, but he's not going to get the numbers he needs to win a Republican Primary if he emphasizes things that most Republicans don't like. Arguing about Blowback with Rudy, McCain and Mitt in different debates didn't help with Republicans. He could say "If I closed half the military bases around the globe, I could completely abolish the Federal Income Tax and replace it with nothing." And spend the rest of his time talking about how wonderful the USA would be without any Federal Income Tax. Republicans'll like that.

The strategy where people change their registration from D to R didn't work very well last time.

[jmdrake]

I'd skip the antiwar as much as possible. Republicans don't like it and the ones that do are typically the "moderate / RINO" types who won't respond to Ron Pauls core message of a much smaller federal government. I'm not saying RP should change his position, but he's not going to get the numbers he needs to win a Republican Primary if he emphasizes things that most Republicans don't like. Arguing about Blowback with Rudy, McCain and Mitt in different debates didn't help with Republicans. He could say "If I closed half the military bases around the globe, I could completely abolish the Federal Income Tax and replace it with nothing." And spend the rest of his time talking about how wonderful the USA would be without any Federal Income Tax. Republicans'll like that.

The strategy where people change their registration from D to R didn't work very well last time.

Like I said in another thread, you are missing the fact that some of the top right wing commentators are starting to turn against the war in Afghanistan.

Besides, what does ANYTHING you are saying have to do with my initial point?

As for being careful not to offend Palin supporters so that they'll "come over to our side" why is that same deference not shown to Obama supporters or anyone else for that matter?

If you're going to start embracing Palin voters while continuing to lash out against Obama voters then independents, like myself, are out of here. I can sell Ron Paul to people who were hard core Obama supporters just months ago. I can't sell hypocrisy. Case in point I was in a heated discussion with my sister in law and she said "You all were for the bailout back when it was Bush but are now against it since Obama's in power". I gently reminded her how much I spoke out against the bailout in 2008. The biggest problem with Sarah Palin isn't her pro Israel, pro war stance. It's that she supported the bailout. She undercuts everything we stand for. And she made herself look like a complete dunce in the process.