"Christians" and "Muslims"

[LittleLightShining]

Earlier this week I posted a thread in the Vent about the increased frequency with which I'm receiving anti-Muslim type emails from acquaintances. I've been struggling with this for a while but after the Fort Hood shooting the emails have begun again in earnest. And it's not just emails, it's comments from people I know and a renewed focus by some "conservative" radio commentators.

The email that spurred my posting is one which claims to "prove" that Obama is a Muslim. It is poorly edited, picking bits and speeches of comments and speeches which are supposed to convince the viewer that we have a Muslim in the White House. I'm very hesitant to post the link to it because it bothered me so much.

I've been wanting to respond to the people that sent me the email, and also call in to the radio show but up until this morning I have not done so. Earlier I got an email from one of the people who sent me that video urging people to request removal from his list if he has offended them. Aside from the anti-Muslim hysterical emails I really appreciate a lot of what this person sends me so I responded to him.


This is part of the email I sent:


I consider myself a faithful Christian and because of that I try to follow Jesus' example and his teachings. Two verses that come to mind whenever I hear fear and hatred of Muslims are

Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing (1 Peter 3:9)


Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble (1 John 2:9-10)

Since the shooting at Fort Hood (which absolutely was a despicable act of terrorism) I've heard an awful lot of vitriolic anti-Muslim opinions coming from people that claim to be Christians. There are lunatic fringe in every faith and philosophy. We Christians are called to be above judgment. It is not our place to judge what exists in another man's heart. Collectivist thinking (in any area) is a dangerous path.

Personally, I do not believe that all Muslims want to kill everyone who is not a Muslim. I've been called naive more than a few times because of this. Even if it was true Jesus tells us to turn the other cheek. If I am killed by a Muslim because I'm a Christian, I die a martyr, which affords me a special blessing in heaven. Our most sincere hope and desire should be that we join Jesus in heaven. All who call his name will not be recognized. Let us love each other as we love ourselves. We must love those who hate us. It is what separates us as Christians from every other faith.

I'd like to start a CIVIL discussion here about the points I made above. Do you agree or disagree with what I said? Does it matter if Obama is, in fact a Muslim? Is the US a Christian nation? Biblically do we get the leader we deserve? What is the role of the Christian in deflecting or discouraging racism or other collectivist behavior?

(I WILL flag any post that I consider off-topic, vitriolic or which I feel devolves the conversation. If you are anti-Christian and have nothing useful to add to this conversation please do not post in this thread.)

[constituent]

any overlap with the folks who told you pharaoh had come to montana?

if so, well, consider the source... radio hosts, soft-heads, etc.

some folks are just too lost to care for, and those who keep coming with the same source,
the same poorly thought-out garbage, have their minds made up and will be impervious to
any logic you throw out there.

try to change their minds, and you'll only be met with scorn.

[LittleLightShining]

any overlap with the folks who told you pharaoh had come to montana?

if so, well, consider the source... radio hosts, soft-heads, etc.

some folks are just too lost to care for.That's new to me :confused:

I disagree. But now I'm second-guessing myself. Some say that reproof is part of the duty of a Christian. We must keep each other on a straight path. But is reproof judgmental? Was MY reproof judgmental? I would hope that when I am going astray someone would tell me (though I might not seem to appreciate it at first)...

[Icymudpuppy]

I am not a Christian scholar, nor even do I consider myself a Christian. A disciple of Jesus, perhaps. But also of Siddhartha and Yoda.

I have discovered through a search of reason and personal experience that collectivist grouping breeds hatred and is used as a method to dehumanize a group of people. It allows people to call other people by a name of some group instead of learning their familiar name. It is hard to kill Isaac, but it is easy to kill "that dirty Jew". It is hard to kill Joe, but it is easy to kill "That bourguiose scum". It is hard to kill Yuri, but it is easy to kill "That commie bastard".

All collectivism is a method of inciting war.

So, while I disdain the lumping of anyone into any category, especially in order to instill hatred, I also despise being lumped into a category myself.

I am an individual. Obama is an individual. I have never, nor will I ever take anything from him. But he does want to take things from me by use of collectivism. I have the natural right to defend myself and my property from him. Not because he belongs to any group, but because he must abide by the same natural law that any individual must.

Should I turn the other cheek? I suppose it depends on how well I can get by without the things he intends to take from me. I may give up my luxuries, as they are not needed. But I will not give up food, shelter, land, clothing, family, or personal defense.

[LittleLightShining]

some folks are just too lost to care for, and those who keep coming with the same source,
the same poorly thought-out garbage, have their minds made up and will be impervious to
any logic you throw out there.

try to change their minds, and you'll only be met with scorn.

I responded before you added this part :o

Does it matter how they react? If a seed is planted, it could be like ginseng and not germinate for years. Or it could just die.

If someone decides that I'm not worth their love or time or effort or care or any other attribute of friendship because they disagree with me it shouldn't bother me too much to lose that person, should it?

[constituent]

That's new to me :confused:

sorry, should have been more specific. there's no changing their minds, at least no easy way.

my recommendation, but you have to be prepared to find out who your REAL friends are (don't worry about the fake ones, they'll say goodbye for you), get about 15-20 cheap copies of the Qur'an, carry one in your purse or whatever.

anytime someone says, "Muslim this" "Islam that," pull out a copy of the Qur'an and say, "tell you what, read this cover to cover and get back to me when you're ready to have an informed discussion on what Muslims, the Qur'an and Islam are and are not. If you know nothing of the religion, how can you claim to be so expert in its followers?"

that'll do it.

[constituent]

If someone decides that I'm not worth their love or time or effort or care or any other attribute of friendship because they disagree with me it shouldn't bother me too much to lose that person, should it?

I did not say love... But that said, how many people that you receive e-mail forwards from are receiving much of your "love or time or effort or care?" Not antagonizing here, but realistically. Not everyone you know is your child, parent, spouse, etc., and we don't even have enough time, energy and effort to always be what we'd like to be for them...

I guess the real question here is, can you do more good by wasting your time spinning in circles with someone who doesn't even care what you're saying, who isn't going to listen to you anyway, or by working with those who are actually open to a broader understanding than they currently possess? Many people are repulsed by new information invading their comfortable outlook on life. They are emotionally invested in being right (they "just sent off that forward" or "had this debate") about that which you claim they have it so wrong...

[LittleLightShining]

I am not a Christian scholar, nor even do I consider myself a Christian. A disciple of Jesus, perhaps. But also of Siddhartha and Yoda.Wisdom is found in many places :)


I have discovered through a search of reason and personal experience that collectivist grouping breeds hatred and is used as a method to dehumanize a group of people. It allows people to call other people by a name of some group instead of learning their familiar name. It is hard to kill Isaac, but it is easy to kill "that dirty Jew". It is hard to kill Joe, but it is easy to kill "That bourguiose scum". It is hard to kill Yuri, but it is easy to kill "That commie bastard".

All collectivism is a method of inciting war.I agree.


So, while I disdain the lumping of anyone into any category, especially in order to instill hatred, I also despise being lumped into a category myself.I do, too.


I am an individual. Obama is an individual. I have never, nor will I ever take anything from him. But he does want to take things from me by use of collectivism. I have the natural right to defend myself and my property from him. Not because he belongs to any group, but because he must abide by the same natural law that any individual must.This is also true.


Should I turn the other cheek? I suppose it depends on how well I can get by without the things he intends to take from me. I may give up my luxuries, as they are not needed. But I will not give up food, shelter, land, clothing, family, or personal defense.This is where I begin to disagree. I'm conflicted in myself here. If I believe that God loves me and have faith in him then I know that all of my needs will be met, but perhaps not in a way that I expect. Though the human part of me makes me possessive and protective of what I have.

[LittleLightShining]

sorry, should have been more specific. there's no changing their minds, at least no easy way.

my recommendation, but you have to be prepared to find out who your REAL friends are (don't worry about the fake ones, they'll say goodbye for you), get about 15-20 cheap copies of the Qur'an, carry one in your purse or whatever.

anytime someone says, "Muslim this" "Islam that," pull out a copy of the Qur'an and say, "tell you what, read this cover to cover and get back to me when you're ready to have an informed discussion on what Muslims, the Qur'an and Islam are and are not. If you know nothing of the religion, how can you claim to be so expert in its followers?"

that'll do it.I guess I'd have to read it first if I wanted to be credible doing that.


I did not say love... But that said, how many people that you receive e-mail forwards from are receiving much of your "love or time or effort or care?" Not antagonizing here, but realistically. Not everyone you know is your child, parent, spouse, etc., and we don't even have enough time, energy and effort to always be what we'd like to be for them...What I mean by love isn't necessarily a familial-type love, but a broader Christ-like love.

I don't get too many emails from people I don't know in some way or another. These people call me for advice or help with political issues and projects so they must respect me at least a little.


I guess the real question here is, can you do more good by wasting your time spinning in circles with someone who doesn't even care what you're saying, who isn't going to listen to you anyway, or by working with those who are actually open to a broader understanding than they currently possess? Many people are repulsed by new information invading their comfortable outlook on life. They are emotionally invested into being right about that which you claim they have it so wrong...Good point. But this is the conundrum we're in with politics as well. Is it a waste of time for us to try to spread the message because they are so set in their ways they won't listen? Of course there are always going to be people who do not want to hear or see. But then there are those who have opened their minds because someone took the time to talk to them.

[constituent]

Good point. But this is the conundrum we're in with politics as well. Is it a waste of time for us to try to spread the message because they are so set in their ways they won't listen? Of course there are always going to be people who do not want to hear or see. But then there are those who have opened their minds because someone took the time to talk to them.

I guess the real issue here is between telling and asking.

Take your "B.O. is a Muslim" example.

You can spend an hr. explaining to someone why it shouldn't matter that he's a Muslim. There is no way to win here. If they sent you a forward claiming proof that he is a Muslim, it clearly matters to them. They are not open for debate on this point. You might be able to convince them that he isn't a Muslim, the point they're looking for debate on b/c they feel ready to win. Try telling them their entire argument is fundamentally flawed, and you will only be met with anger, frustration, etc., everyone in the room will be p.o.'d with you for starting a fight, zomg. But ask them to do a little leg work and get back to you, you save them a blood pressure pill (or two), and you enjoy yourself much more while giving them the tools they need to reason for themselves...

rambling, i know. my apologies for that.

In my opinion, these people are so lost that the only way to get them even thinking again is to simply shock them and walk away. Let their head collapse, and give them a year to find their way back to you.

[LittleLightShining]

I guess the real issue here is between telling and asking.

Take your "B.O. is a Muslim" example.

You can spend an hr. explaining to someone why it shouldn't matter that he's a Muslim. There is no way to win here. If they sent you a forward claiming proof that he is a Muslim, it clearly matters to them. They are not open for debate on this point. You might be able to convince them that he isn't a Muslim, the point they're looking for debate on b/c they feel ready to win.

In my opinion, these people are so lost that the only way to get them even thinking again is to simply shock them and walk away. Let their head collapse, and give them a year to find their way back to you.Like a ginseng seed :)

[constituent]

I guess I'd have to read it first if I wanted to be credible doing that.


http://al-quran.info


There are about ten english translations on that site.

The link will take you to a random spot in the book when you get to the site,
just click on the drop down menu for "Chapter" and choose "1: The Opening."

Enjoy.

[LittleLightShining]

http://al-quran.info


There are about ten english translations on that site.

The link will take you to a random spot in the book when you get to the site,
just click on the drop down menu for "Chapter" and choose "1: The Opening."

Enjoy.

Thanks :)

[revolutionisnow]

Send them this video back, and ask them if we should stereotype and judge all Christians by him

YouTube - Seung-Hui Cho full video Virginia Tech Shooter (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyalPi1GeDY)

[TER]

LSL, I very much liked your email in the OP.



Some say that reproof is part of the duty of a Christian. We must keep each other on a straight path. But is reproof judgmental? Was MY reproof judgmental? I would hope that when I am going astray someone would tell me (though I might not seem to appreciate it at first)...

In the Scriptures we read how when someone is doing something we consider wrong in regards to their actions or their beliefs we should confront them alone in a spirit of love and compassion so as not to publicly scandalize them or humiliate them (one of the great things about private messaging on internet forums!). If this does not work, then we should bring 2 or 3 people as witnesses to discuss the concerns with them. If this still does not help, then should this be brought up with the entire Church. This should not be done without prayer however, as prayer is indispensable.

But you are right that there is a fine line between being judgmental. That is why we should first judge our own actions and disposition and beliefs and make sure they are in accordance with Christ's before we begin to play teacher to others lest we become hypocrites. Again, this is a practice which requires great humility, faith, and prayer.


Does it matter how they react? If a seed is planted, it could be like ginseng and not germinate for years. Or it could just die.

If someone decides that I'm not worth their love or time or effort or care or any other attribute of friendship because they disagree with me it shouldn't bother me too much to lose that person, should it?


In Luke 9 we read:


Then He said to another, “Follow Me.”

But he said, “Lord, let me first go and bury my father.”

Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and preach the kingdom of God.”

And another also said, “Lord, I will follow You, but let me first go and bid them farewell who are at my house.”

But Jesus said to him, “No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”



Also in Mark 10:

Then Peter began to say to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You.”

So Jesus answered and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[a] or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel’s, who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time—houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions—and in the age to come, eternal life.

[LittleLightShining]

Send them this video back, and ask them if we should stereotype and judge all Christians by him

YouTube - Seung-Hui Cho full video Virginia Tech Shooter (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyalPi1GeDY)

I don't have to think about what the answer to that would be.

[LittleLightShining]

LSL, I very much liked your email in the OP. Thanks :) I was hoping I'd get some feedback on that. My friend wrote back. I think he was a little put off by my comments but he hasn't stopped emailing me. I wouldn't have taken that tack with him if he hadn't mentioned his faith a few other times.


In the Scriptures we read how when someone is doing something we consider wrong in regards to their actions or their beliefs we should confront them alone in a spirit of love and compassion so as not to publicly scandalize them or humiliate them (one of the great things about private messaging on internet forums!). If this does not work, then we should bring 2 or 3 people as witnesses to discuss the concerns with them. If this still does not help, then should this be brought up with the entire Church. This should not be done without prayer however, as prayer is indispensable. Yes! I really try not to engage in reproof very often but sometimes I'm really convicted about it, especially when I feel an offense is especially grievous. Racism is one of those offenses that I feel so strongly about. And praying and pondering is so very important.


But you are right that there is a fine line between being judgmental. That is why we should first judge our own actions and disposition and beliefs and make sure they are in accordance with Christ's before we begin to play teacher to others lest we become hypocrites. Again, this is a practice which requires great humility, faith, and prayer. agree.



In Luke 9 we read:


Then He said to another, “Follow Me.”

But he said, “Lord, let me first go and bury my father.”

Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and preach the kingdom of God.”

And another also said, “Lord, I will follow You, but let me first go and bid them farewell who are at my house.”

But Jesus said to him, “No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”



Also in Mark 10:

Then Peter began to say to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You.”

So Jesus answered and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[a] or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel’s, who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time—houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions—and in the age to come, eternal life.

This is why it doesn't bother me much if someone turns from me because of where my faith and trust in God bring me.


As an American born Muslim LittleLightShining, I truly commend you for standing up against hypocrisy and bigots. I would like for you to quote these passages from the Quran, so they get a perspective that Muslims, Christians, and Jews are not enemies of Islam.

And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him do we submit.
Quran 24:46

(People of the Book in Islam are Jews and Christians, the book being the Torah, Pslams, and 4 Gospels.


Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve .
Quran 2:62
Wow! Thanks for sharing these verses with me. The second one is especially fascinating to me.


Muslims believe that Jesus is one of the highest prophets, and he will come back on judgment day (same with Christians)

There are too many similarities to name, but what I would like for you to convey is that both religions are similar and we should learn from each other.I have often wondered, but haven't invested any time in researching, the relationship between the Abrahamic traditions.