SPLIT: Ancap derail of "Best book on minarchism" thread

[Joe3113]

Interested in what is the general best theory on it. Thanks.

Why the mad face? :) Welcome to the forums by the way.



http://mises.org/store/Assets/ProductImages/B592.jpg
For a New Liberty: The Libertarian Manifesto


Contents

* Preface ix (http://mises.org/rothbard/newlibertywhole.asp#pix)
1. The Libertarian Heritage:
The American Revolution and Classical Liberalism 1 (http://mises.org/rothbard/newlibertywhole.asp#p1)

PART I: THE LIBERTARIAN CREED

2. Property and Exchange 23 (http://mises.org/rothbard/newlibertywhole.asp#p23)
3. The State 45 (http://mises.org/rothbard/newlibertywhole.asp#p45)

PART II: LIBERTARIAN APPLICATIONS TO CURRENT PROBLEMS

4. The Problems 73 (http://mises.org/rothbard/newlibertywhole.asp#p73)
5. Involuntary Servitude 79 (http://mises.org/rothbard/newlibertywhole.asp#p79)
6. Personal Liberty 94 (http://mises.org/rothbard/newlibertywhole.asp#94)
7. Education 119 (http://mises.org/rothbard/newlibertywhole.asp#119)
8. Welfare and the Welfare State 142 (http://mises.org/rothbard/newlibertywhole.asp#142)
9. Inflation and the Business Cycle:
The Collapse of the Keynesian Paradigm 171 (http://mises.org/rothbard/newlibertywhole.asp#171) [p. viii]
10. The Public Sector, I: Government in Business 194 (http://mises.org/rothbard/newlibertywhole.asp#194)
11. The Public Sector, II: Streets and Roads 201 (http://mises.org/rothbard/newlibertywhole.asp#201)
12. The Public Sector, III: Police, Law, and the Courts 215 (http://mises.org/rothbard/newlibertywhole.asp#215)
13. Conservation, Ecology, and Growth 242 (http://mises.org/rothbard/newlibertywhole.asp#242)
14. War and Foreign Policy 263 (http://mises.org/rothbard/newlibertywhole.asp#263)

PART III: EPILOGUE

15. A Strategy for Liberty 297 (http://mises.org/rothbard/newlibertywhole.asp#297)

* Appendix: The Libertarian Movement 322
* Index 327 [p. ix]

# Full book in PDF (http://mises.org/rothbard/foranewlb.pdf)
# Full book in MP3 (http://mises.org/media.aspx?action=category&ID=87)

[nandnor]

nvm

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Thats not a minarchist book though!

The best experiment in Minarchism was the USA. Look how we turned out.

[Joe3113]

Thats not a minarchist book though!

Ok, try this one - http://freekeene.com/free-audiobook/

In all seriousness though, you asked for an ounce of silver - and I gave you an ounce of gold.

[newbitech]

Keep in mind that minarchism is a term coined by a market anarchist because he wanted to shorten the term, "limited government libertarianism". Wiki has some pretty good sources that stay on topic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minarchism

Here is one of them. Some of the other terms you might want to search for that explains the idea of "minarchism" without the attacks from anarchist or defenses from limited government crowds would be small government or limited government libertarianism. Those searches might turn up books that discuss the idea with out conflating the subject matter.

I found this book for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy,_State,_and_Utopia

here is the PDF

http://www.libertyactivism.info/uploads/6/6e/Anarchy%2C_State%2C_and_Utopia_-_Robert_Nozick.pdf

Just as a heads up, Murray Rothbard did have some criticism for this work and in the spirit of fairness for all views to be heard, here is the link on that criticism.

and the pdf for the Rothbard criticism. http://www.mises.org/journals/jls/1_1/1_1_6.pdf

[RevolutionSD]

Why would you want to read about minarchy? There are so many great books on anarchy and voluntary societies. Start with Rothbard. Get to Molyneux as fast as you can!

[Epic]

Mary Ruwart "Healing Our World"

[UnReconstructed]

healing our world is a great book but it's not minarchist either.

[LibertyEagle]

To Whom it may concern...

The TS did not ask about a book on anarcho-capitalism; he asked about a book on minarchism. Please stop derailing this thread.

[nandnor]

nvm

[mport1]

Why would you want to read more about a sytem that proposes the initation of force? I'd say open your mind to reading about voluntaryism and thinking about how we could get rid of institutionalized violence.

[LibertyEagle]

To Whom it may concern...

The TS did not ask about a book on anarcho-capitalism; he asked about a book on minarchism. Please stop derailing this thread.

I repeat.

[RevolutionSD]

I repeat.

We're not derailing the thread. This is very relevant to the discussion at hand.

[idiom]

Why would you want to read more about a sytem that proposes the initation of force? I'd say open your mind to reading about voluntaryism and thinking about how we could get rid of institutionalized violence.

Systems that initiate force are of interest to a lot of people. Especially fans of Ron Paul.

[Joe3113]

We're not derailing the thread. This is very relevant to the discussion at hand.

Before you post you should check with your overlords to see if what you are doing is ok and permissible.

[LibertyEagle]

We're not derailing the thread. This is very relevant to the discussion at hand.

Yeah, you are. Start your own thread if you want to, but stop derailing this one.


+ Off-topic posts - Posts that do not relate to the threads intent are subject to being deleted.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=22


Before you post you should check with your overlords to see if what you are doing is ok and permissible.
Nice, Curlz. :rolleyes:

All you have to do is read the forum guidelines and make an attempt at following them. It's pretty easy.

[RevolutionSD]

It was never derailed. Liberty Eagle, you're being way to sensitive to derailing. Sometimes topics have many angles.

[Joe3113]

Since a "best book" in my opinion must contain no contradictions or fallacies...

There can be no such thing as a "best minarchist book".

[Brassmouth]

books by tom woods

the government where i live has the Politically Incorrect Guide to American History in its library

Tom Woods is not a minarchist, fyi.

[Joe3113]

Tom Woods is not a minarchist, fyi.

Win!

[UnReconstructed]

You are correct, he states that he is not minarchist but have you read his books? I have heard him speak and heard him state that government is incompatible with liberty and that force is wrong and that he believes in voluntary associations and the free market but... have you read his books?

I must say that I have only read one and that was the Politically Incorrect Guide to American History and it, was minarchist. So maybe I am using a broad brush being that once I read that book I made the decision to not read any of his other works.

[Joe3113]

You are correct, he states that he is not minarchist but have you read his books? I have heard him speak and heard him state that government is incompatible with liberty and that force is wrong and that he believes in voluntary associations and the free market but... have you read his books?

I must say that I have only read one and that was the Politically Incorrect Guide to American History and it, was minarchist. So maybe I am using a broad brush being that once I read that book I made the decision to not read any of his other works.

So another person everyone thinks is a minarchist / Constitutionalist and yet he's an anarcho-capitalist.

How interesting..

[UnReconstructed]

I'm not sure what to make of that but like I said, I know what he says but the (1) book of his that I read was minarchist.

[LibertyEagle]

So another person everyone thinks is a minarchist / Constitutionalist and yet he's an anarcho-capitalist.

How interesting..

Yes, he is an ancap now. But, he wasn't always.

[Joe3113]

Yes, he is an ancap now. But, he wasn't always.

Can you prove this please.

How did you come to that conclusion?

[__27__]

Yes, he is an ancap now. But, he wasn't always.

Can you prove this please.

How did you come to that conclusion?


I'm not citing any sources or calling on extensive research, but I would say that's generally correct. And I would also say that is generally the norm. I see it as one of the few positives LE has said toward Ancapism. This is generally how we progress. First I was a hard line Republican, then I was a minarchist, then I was an anarchist. The more I questioned my principles and made the effort to apply them to my life, the more I saw that Ancapism is the logical conclusion of libertarian values. If you were born an ancap and have remained ancap your entire life, I'd say you're the exception, not the rule.

EDIT: And I would also add that I see Dr. Paul in the reverse. That is, the poster above said that Woods claims he is an ancap, but his writing (at least the one he read) sounds much more minarchist. Dr. Paul claims on a national stage to be minarchist, but from my prospective if you listen to or read his words, they are much closer to ancap than minarchy.

As I've said before, 2012 can't come soon enough for me. As much as I will vehemently disagree with minarchists and call them out at every chance in philosophical debate, I rather prefer when we are working together toward a common goal to trying to pick each other apart over minor philosophy differences.

[Joe3113]

Yes, he is an ancap now. But, he wasn't always.

When did he stop being a minarchist is the point I was making. You know he wasn't always, but do you know when?

My contention is that he didn't convert after writing those books. He already was one, it just wasn't necessary, nor expedient to write about it.


I'm not citing any sources or calling on extensive research, but I would say that's generally correct. And I would also say that is generally the norm. I see it as one of the few positives LE has said toward Ancapism. This is generally how we progress. First I was a hard line Republican, then I was a minarchist, then I was an anarchist. The more I questioned my principles and made the effort to apply them to my life, the more I saw that Ancapism is the logical conclusion of libertarian values. If you were born an ancap and have remained ancap your entire life, I'd say you're the exception, not the rule.

This is all besides the point. You also forgot that some people never progress and get stuck with fallacies and a position with full of contradictions.


EDIT: And I would also add that I see Dr. Paul in the reverse. That is, the poster above said that Woods claims he is an ancap, but his writing (at least the one he read) sounds much more minarchist. Dr. Paul claims on a national stage to be minarchist, but from my prospective if you listen to or read his words, they are much closer to ancap than minarchy.

Woods is an anarcho-capitalist. There is no 'claim'. What needs to be queried is in what context? Everyone here is a Constitutionalist (limited government) when compared with what we currently have. It's just that there are those that in comparing less government with that as outlined in the Constitution - would choose less, just like the Anti-Federalists did.

Ron Paul has explicitly stated his ideal is self government. That's anarcho-capitalism.


As I've said before, 2012 can't come soon enough for me. As much as I will vehemently disagree with minarchists and call them out at every chance in philosophical debate, I rather prefer when we are working together toward a common goal to trying to pick each other apart over minor philosophy differences.

As do I. When no-one attempts to denounce a truly free society & there is no problem. :)

[LibertyEagle]

I'm not citing any sources or calling on extensive research, but I would say that's generally correct. And I would also say that is generally the norm. I see it as one of the few positives LE has said toward Ancapism. This is generally how we progress. First I was a hard line Republican, then I was a minarchist, then I was an anarchist. The more I questioned my principles and made the effort to apply them to my life, the more I saw that Ancapism is the logical conclusion of libertarian values. If you were born an ancap and have remained ancap your entire life, I'd say you're the exception, not the rule.

EDIT: And I would also add that I see Dr. Paul in the reverse. That is, the poster above said that Woods claims he is an ancap, but his writing (at least the one he read) sounds much more minarchist. Dr. Paul claims on a national stage to be minarchist, but from my prospective if you listen to or read his words, they are much closer to ancap than minarchy.

As I've said before, 2012 can't come soon enough for me. As much as I will vehemently disagree with minarchists and call them out at every chance in philosophical debate, I rather prefer when we are working together toward a common goal to trying to pick each other apart over minor philosophy differences.

Here's what some of you guys don't understand. I don't have a problem with anarcho-capitalism IN THEORY. But, in practical application with the society we have today, I have major issues with it. So, until people change a great deal, I firmly believe that a limited constitutional government is the best way to secure liberty. I also firmly believe that it is difficult enough to remind Americans about why government should not be looked to for every damn thing, and why it badly needs to be drastically reduced and put in chains.

So, to all ancaps, we can either work together to drastically reduce government, or we can keep beating the hell out of each other. The choice is yours.

[LibertyEagle]

Ron Paul has explicitly stated his ideal is self government. That's anarcho-capitalism.
Nope. There you go again. :rolleyes:

The term "self-government" has been used by limited government folks for as long as I can remember. Because our Founders largely intended us to be that way. It does not mean, no government.

Ron Paul is a constitutionalist and for you to keep claiming he is an ancap is ridiculous.

http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/topic.php?id=15


Defending the Constitution


"For the sake of the future of our Republic, it is important that we are not just consistent, but correctly consistent. We must defend not just the sections of the Constitution we find popular, we must defend the entire Constitution. Most importantly, we must jealously guard the philosophy of freedom upon which it is based. If we do, the sound we will hear is that of liberty once again loudly ringing across our land."
Ron Paul, Texas Straight Talk, June 21, 1999

The most popular documents on Defending the Constitution:
1. A Republic, Not a Democracy (http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=178) Ron Paul Newsletter, December 11, 2000
2. Congress Should Read the Bills Before they Vote! (http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=897) Ron Paul Press Release, March 14, 2006
3. Sorry, Mr. Franklin, "We're All Democrats Now” (http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=661) Ron Paul Speech to Congress, January 29, 2003
4. Federal Courts and the Growth of Government Power (http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=444) Ron Paul Newsletter, January 16, 2006
5. What Does the First Amendment Really Mean? (http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=259) Ron Paul Newsletter, July 1, 2002
6. The Electoral College Serves to Protect Liberty and Statehood (http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=174) Ron Paul Newsletter, November 13, 2000
7. A Republic, If You Can Keep It (http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=887) Ron Paul Speech to Congress, January 31, 2000
8. Restricting the Executive Orders (http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=108) Ron Paul Newsletter, August 2, 1999
9. Let liberty ring loudly. All of Constitution, not just sections, must be defended (http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=102) Ron Paul Newsletter, June 21, 1999

77 other documents on Defending the Constitution:
1. Celebrating the Fight for Freedom on the Fourth (http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=1236) Ron Paul Congressional Blog, July 6, 2009
2. Secession: the Ultimate States' Right (http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=1209) Ron Paul Congressional Blog, April 27, 2009
3. Introducing the Sunlight Rule (http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=1181) Ron Paul Speech to Congress, March 5, 2009
4. What's in a Bill Name? (http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=1115) Ron Paul Congressional Blog, August 11, 2008
5. Congressman Paul Cosponsors Engel Paul Act (http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=1116) Ron Paul Press Release, August 4, 2008
6. Statement on HR 6304, the FISA Amendments (http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=1090) Ron Paul Speech to Congress, June 20, 2008
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8. Statement Regarding Impeachment of Vice President Cheney (http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=976) Ron Paul Speech to Congress, November 6, 2007
9. Statement Introducing the American Freedom Agenda Act of 2007 (http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=962) Ron Paul Speech to Congress, October 15, 2007
10. The Sunlight Rule (http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=941) Ron Paul Newsletter, September 16, 2007
11. Introducing the Congressional Responsibility and Accountability Act (http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=924) Ron Paul Speech to Congress, August 1, 2007
12. Signing Statements Erode Constitutional Balance (http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=843) Ron Paul Newsletter, July 9, 2007
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16. Searching for a New Direction (http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=545) Ron Paul Speech to Congress, January 18, 2006
17. Our Political Federal Courts (http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=430) Ron Paul Newsletter, October 19, 2005
18. Politics and Judicial Activism (http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=422) Ron Paul Newsletter, August 15, 2005
19. Hands Off the Electoral College (http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=389) Ron Paul Newsletter, December 27, 2004
20. The Electoral College vs. Mob Rule (http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=381) Ron Paul Newsletter, November 1, 2004
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22. Resisting Judicial Tyranny (http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=367) Ron Paul Newsletter, July 26, 2004
23. End the Two-Party Monopoly! (http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=594) Ron Paul Speech to Congress, July 15, 2004
24. Paul Votes to Preserve the Elected House of Representatives (http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=998) Ron Paul Press Release, June 3, 2004
25. The House of Representatives Must be Elected! (http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=600) Ron Paul Speech to Congress, June 2, 2004
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30. Federal Courts and the Imaginary Constitution (http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=317) Ron Paul Newsletter, August 11, 2003
31. Independence from England, Dependence on Washington? (http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=312) Ron Paul Newsletter, July 7, 2003
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77. Line-Item Veto violates separation of powers, threatens America's constitution... (http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=7) Ron Paul Newsletter, August 18, 1997


As do I. When no-one attempts to denounce a truly free society & there is no problem. :)

Well, hold on then, because only anarchists and their associates want to get rid of ALL government. The rest of us, and Ron Paul, are trying to reinstate our Constitution. It is also the mission of this forum.

[__27__]

So, to all ancaps, we can either work together to drastically reduce government, or we can keep beating the hell out of each other. The choice is yours.

Hence the comment '2012 can't come soon enough for me'. I agree, but at present we don't have enough to keep us working together, so we're often stuck arguing philosophy, and I will disagree every time someone tries to justify the use of government force in any way to meet their ends.

[LibertyEagle]

Hence the comment '2012 can't come soon enough for me'. I agree, but at present we don't have enough to keep us working together, so we're often stuck arguing philosophy, and I will disagree every time someone tries to justify the use of government force in any way to meet their ends.

Yeah, I saw that.

[Joe3113]

Nope. There you go again. :rolleyes:

The term "self-government" has been used by limited government folks for as long as I can remember. Because our Founders largely intended us to be that way. It does not mean, no government.

Ron Paul is a constitutionalist and for you to keep claiming he is an ancap is ridiculous.

What happens when you put the term self government, as used by Ron Paul in context?

YouTube - Ron Paul Discusses Civil Disobedience, Self-Government & More with Motorhome Diaries (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFYRHZpavX4)

It means voluntarism / anarcho-capitalism... just like the people interviewing him are.

Thanks for playing...

[UnReconstructed]

I think it possible to be born and raised an anarchist or an anarcho____________ (fill in the blank). Anarchism wasn't born with Rothbard. My parents were very anarchistic though they would never say that out loud... you know, the government has executed anarchists in this land and many more have been deported.

Also, I agree with LE in his statement below. If the state fell tonight then there would be some amount of chaos. Those people that depend on the state or otherwise benefit from the state would, in my opinion, be the ones running around breaking into businesses and other such extremes. It might take 2 or 3 generations before people could make the adjustment. Molyneux has even stated that. Ian Freeman has called it an "evolution" because it's not going to over night. I'd like to see it in my life but I really don't think it will happen... not on a societal scale.


Here's what some of you guys don't understand. I don't have a problem with anarcho-capitalism IN THEORY. But, in practical application with the society we have today, I have major issues with it. So, until people change a great deal, I firmly believe that a limited constitutional government is the best way to secure liberty.

[UnReconstructed]

What happens when you put the term self government, as used by Ron Paul in context?

YouTube - Ron Paul Discusses Civil Disobedience, Self-Government & More with Motorhome Diaries (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFYRHZpavX4)

It means voluntarism / anarcho-capitalism... just like the people interviewing him are.

Thanks for playing...

what is that song?

EDIT: Disregard

[LibertyEagle]

What happens when you put the term self government, as used by Ron Paul in context?

It means voluntarism / anarcho-capitalism... just like the people interviewing him are.

Thanks for playing...

I'm not playing and you're puffing smoke. :D

[Joe3113]

I'm not playing and you're puffing smoke. :D

Thanks for the non response and non refutation.

I'll take that as a concession.

Cheers :D

Alternatively, please actually refute my refutation of yours - that is of course, if you choose to continue to play ;)

[Joe3113]

Also, I agree with LE in his statement below. If the state fell tonight then there would be some amount of chaos. Those people that depend on the state or otherwise benefit from the state would, in my opinion, be the ones running around breaking into businesses and other such extremes. It might take 2 or 3 generations before people could make the adjustment. Molyneux has even stated that. Ian Freeman has called it an "evolution" because it's not going to over night. I'd like to see it in my life but I really don't think it will happen... not on a societal scale.

This however is not a refutation of anarcho-capitalism, nor advocation of a stateless society - i.e voluntarism. The state is failing, it is inevitable. The system WILL collapse.

That's not a reason to not promote anarcho-capitalism / stateless society which is arrived at by reason and logic, not via the collapse of a failed state.

Again, none of that is actually a valid refutation.

[LibertyEagle]

I already refuted you and added to that, the fact that Ron Paul took an oath to uphold the Constitution, makes your argument beyond ridiculous.

;)

[LibertyEagle]

This however is not a refutation of anarcho-capitalism, nor advocation of a stateless society - i.e voluntarism. The state is failing, it is inevitable. The system WILL collapse.

That's not a reason to not promote anarcho-capitalism / stateless society which is arrived at by reason and logic, not via the collapse of a failed state.

Again, none of that is actually a valid refutation.

Curlz, the mission of this forum is activism to get liberty candidates elected to reinstate the Constitution. Unless your purpose is to be divisive, I sincerely hope you will join with us to attain that goal.

[__27__]

I already refuted you and added to that, the fact that Ron Paul took an oath to uphold the Constitution, makes your argument beyond ridiculous.

;)

??

Did not Barney Frank take that same oath? What again does it mean?


Paul is against the state period, by whatever title you choose to call that. As for today, he is much like the ancaps here, we will work with minarchists hand in hand until we get government down to minarchy size, then we will work to keep making government smaller until it ceases to exist completely. Whether you want to fight us at that point is up to you.

[LibertyEagle]

??

Did not Barney Frank take that same oath? What again does it mean?
You are sitting there and equating Ron Paul to Barney Frank? Oh really. Do tell.


Paul is against the state period, by whatever title you choose to call that.
Dr. Paul is a constitutionalist. I didn't pick that; that is what HE calls himself.


As for today, he is much like the ancaps here, we will work with minarchists hand in hand until we get government down to minarchy size, then we will work to keep making government smaller until it ceases to exist completely. Whether you want to fight us at that point is up to you.

You are putting words in Dr. Paul's mouth. Thanks, but I'd rather let him speak for himself and I have been listening to him for over 25 years. :/

So, sorry, but you will have to speak for yourself.

[__27__]

You are sitting there and equating Ron Paul to Barney Frank? Oh really. Do tell.


You implied that merely speaking an oath to the constitution makes him automatically a constitutionalist. Is Barney Frank then also a constitutionalist? Do tell.



Dr. Paul is a constitutionalist. I didn't pick that; that is what HE calls himself.

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and tells you it's a goose, it's a...?


You are putting words in Dr. Paul's mouth. Thanks, but I'd rather let him speak for himself and I have been listening to him for over 25 years. :/

So, sorry, but you will have to speak for yourself.

If you've been listening to him for over 25 years and still believe he would support oppressive government force to be used to meet an end (even a constitutional one) I have to wonder if you've really been listening, or just hearing what you wanted to hear.

[UnReconstructed]

This however is not a refutation of anarcho-capitalism, nor advocation of a stateless society - i.e voluntarism. The state is failing, it is inevitable. The system WILL collapse.

That's not a reason to not promote anarcho-capitalism / stateless society which is arrived at by reason and logic, not via the collapse of a failed state.

Again, none of that is actually a valid refutation.

Why are you being argumentative? I am not trying refute anything that you said or have said. Are you Conza88 operating under a different name?

[Joe3113]

I already refuted you and added to that, the fact that Ron Paul took an oath to uphold the Constitution, makes your argument beyond ridiculous.

;)

No fortunately / unfortunately you haven't refuted that Ron Paul's ideal is "self government". Nor have you refuted that the context in which he said those words, means anarcho-capitalism / voluntarism.

Ron has taken that oath, yes - and that does nothing to refute my point that his ideal is anarcho-capitalism.

;)