the future is now...

[heavenlyboy34]

...and it's not pretty! :eek:

Alabama county celebrates official Obama holiday (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hJycCqeniZ9IvMG7pYc-TIbbLFPQD9BQQBD80)

I warned y'all about State worship! :(

[paulitics]

...and it's not pretty! :eek:

Alabama county celebrates official Obama holiday (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hJycCqeniZ9IvMG7pYc-TIbbLFPQD9BQQBD80)

I warned y'all about State worship! :(

If Hillary got elected, I could see many liberal towns doing the same thing, perhaps even much of San Francisco. It doesn't matter that they are worshiping a couple of charlatans, just that they are a certain gender or race. What's more, we get to be called bigots for having a problem with the insanity. Don' t you love these times?

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

"We hold holidays for Columbus and for Lincoln. There's been no event more historic in my lifetime than the election of Barack Obama," Turner said

Who in their right mind in the South can have a holiday for the man who wanted all blacks to be deported back to Africa, and who had General Sherman and other's profligate mass destruction on an unparalleled scale...Even the British were shocked and condemned the North.

Good lord. Secondly, how old is this guy? He's probably about 40. You mean to tell me there was nothing more important that happened in the world from 1970 to 2009? No, really? And they call us the racists....that which they profess is the very definition of a racist.

[LibertyEagle]

I warned y'all about State worship! :(

Come off it, I don't know anyone here who worships the State.

[ClayTrainor]

Come off it, I don't know anyone here who worships the State.

Is the constitution a state document? :)

[LibertyEagle]

Is the constitution a state document? :)

Clay, here's the thing, even Lew Rockwell doesn't classify people who believe in a Constitutional government as "statists", so this BS about some of you going around making constant digs at anyone and everyone who is not an anarcho-capitalist, or some other flavor of anarcho-whatever, is very grating. We all want liberty, but it seems we disagree on the best way to attain it. None of us worship the government, the state, or whatever the hell you want to call it. We are ALL working to drastically reduce it. None of us is happy about what is going on in the United States. Tell me, are you happy with your own Canadian government???

If seems like some just want to keep dividing this movement, rather than working together. Why is that do you think?

[JoshLowry]

Alabama county celebrates official Obama holiday (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hJycCqeniZ9IvMG7pYc-TIbbLFPQD9BQQBD80)

I warned y'all about State worship! :(


Is the constitution a state document? :)


Clay, here's the thing, even Lew Rockwell doesn't classify people who believe in a Constitutional government as "statists", so this BS about some of you going around making constant digs at anyone and everyone who is not an anarcho-capitalist, or some other flavor of anarcho-whatever, is very grating. We all want liberty, but it seems we disagree on the best way to attain it. None of us worship the government, the state, or whatever the hell you want to call it. We are ALL working to drastically reduce it. None of us is happy about what is going on in the United States. Tell me, are you happy with your own Canadian government???

If seems like some just want to keep dividing this movement, rather than working together. Why is that do you think?

+1

If you guys would rather point out our "worship of the state" instead of working with us on shrinking government then you might as well stop coming back to this website. Like any of us support this garbage.

[ClayTrainor]

Clay, here's the thing, even Lew Rockwell doesn't classify people who believe in a Constitutional government as "statists",

That's fine... i'm not a lew rockwell follower, but an independent thinker. :)

Those who support any form of government, are statists by my view, though i almost never use the word. I know it's insulting and unproductive.


Statism:

The belief that the centralization of power in a state is the ideal or best way to organize humanity.


The constitution is a form of centralizing power, regardless of the limitations that were attempted.



so this BS about some of you going around making constant digs at anyone and everyone who is not an anarcho-capitalist, or some other flavor of anarcho-whatever, is very grating.

I asked you a simple question... no digs. The constitution is a state document, and many people here see it as an "end game". That's a form of worship, imo, though i support constitutional limitations like everyone else.



We all want liberty, but it seems we disagree on the best way to attain it. None of us worship the government, the state, or whatever the hell you want to call it. We are ALL working to drastically reduce it. None of us is happy about what is going on in the United States.
I hear ya :)



Tell me, are you happy with your own Canadian government???


I'm not happy with the concept of government, politicians or kings, period.



If seems like some just want to keep dividing this movement, rather than working together. Why is that do you think?

Not sure, but all i know is I have made valuable contributions to the movement and continue to do so, in terms of activism. I'm doing my best to use questioning, to find out what others believe, and assert my own positions as rarely as i possibly can. :)

I believe asking the right questions is more important than claiming to have the right answers.

[ClayTrainor]

If you guys would rather point out our "worship of the state" instead of working with us on shrinking government then you might as well stop coming back to this website. Like any of us support this garbage.

First of all, all i did was ask a simple question. If you want me to stop participating here, just say the word.

I'm only here to express my honesty, and help with activism against the state.

[RevolutionSD]

If Hillary got elected, I could see many liberal towns doing the same thing, perhaps even much of San Francisco. It doesn't matter that they are worshiping a couple of charlatans, just that they are a certain gender or race. What's more, we get to be called bigots for having a problem with the insanity. Don' t you love these times?

SF voted overwhelmingly for Obama. Most people in these so-called liberal cities don't think much, they just vote for people with D's by their name in knee-jerk fashion.

[JoshLowry]

First of all, all i did was ask a simple question. If you want me to stop participating here, just say the word.

I'm only here to express my honesty, and help with activism against the state.

It's not a simple question.

You're needling LE with a "I'm right and you're wrong" jibe.

Voluntaryism and the NAP are morally correct. Congrats. Do you want another pat on the back?

[ClayTrainor]

It's not a simple question.

You're needling LE with a "I'm right and you're wrong" jibe.


So, i better not ask relevant questions to the things she posts, anymore?

I like to think the right questions can get people thinking properly, and often can correct my own flawed thinking.



Voluntaryism and the NAP are morally correct. Congrats. Do you want another pat on the back?

I don't look for pats on the back... thanks for thinking i'm a shallow POS tho :)

[MelissaWV]

*awkward*

Um, so anyhow...

Yeah, we have other holidays to honor other people, but most of them died before that came about. It's sort of like declaring someone a saint even before they kick the bucket. There are a lot of worthy people around, and some of them get a street or bridge named after them, but I see a genuine conflict of interest with "honoring" someone like this while they're still serving.

Talk about premature :(

[JoshLowry]

So, i better not ask relevant questions to the things she posts, anymore?

I like to think the right questions can get people thinking properly, and often can correct my own flawed thinking.

Look around you and think about that. Voluntaryism won't work on this planet. Too many idiots...


I don't look for pats on the back... thanks for thinking i'm a shallow POS tho :)

You do play the "gotcha" game. Your words not mine.

[ClayTrainor]

Look around you and think about that. Voluntaryism won't work on this planet. Too many idiots...


That's a bold assertion.

So voluntary trade just doesn't work? Do we need trade to be forced and managed? Clearly voluntarism just doesn't work... so how should the market function? Where is the austrian school wrong in their assessment?



You do play the "gotcha" game. Your words not mine.

I use the socratic method (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method), you can call it "gotcha" if you want. My questions have tendency to point out inner contradictions, i think, though i could be wrong.

Anyone just looking for a pat on the back / approval, is a sad shallow person. I don't need approval of my thoughts. I usually don't even present my views in an-cap debates, and just stick to socratic questioning, though I'm far from perfect.

[MsDoodahs]

:eek:

Perhaps this thread should be locked...lol...

[RevolutionSD]

Look around you and think about that. Voluntaryism won't work on this planet. Too many idiots...



You do play the "gotcha" game. Your words not mine.

Ok Josh let's say there are too many idiots. What do you think government is comprised of? People right? Do you think they are any smarter than the rest of the idiots? This is just more reason not to have a government- if society is filled with idiots, I for one do not want to be ruled over by idiots with guns.

[ClayTrainor]

:eek:

Perhaps this thread should be locked...lol...

i support the locking of this thread :o

Josh, I respect your private property a lot, and if you have a problem with how i'm conducting myself here, can we talk about it in pm?

I really dont want to be on your bad side :)

[heavenlyboy34]

+1

If you guys would rather point out our "worship of the state" instead of working with us on shrinking government then you might as well stop coming back to this website. Like any of us support this garbage.

FWIW, I do help with certain projects that seem reasonable. (like the HR 1207 phone bombs back in the day and so forth) :cool::)

[heavenlyboy34]

Ok Josh let's say there are too many idiots. What do you think government is comprised of? People right? Do you think they are any smarter than the rest of the idiots? This is just more reason not to have a government- if society is filled with idiots, I for one do not want to be ruled over by idiots with guns.
+ a zillion :cool:

[MsDoodahs]

I really dont want to be on your bad side :)

Everyone is afraid of getting on Josh's bad side!

Had someone else uttered, "Voluntaryism won't work on this planet. Too many idiots," how many members would have jumped in to point out the problem with that view?

More than two, I venture to guess....

[Mini-Me]

I'm disappointed with this thread. Why isn't anyone celebrating the Obama holiday?

...bwahahahaha...

[Danke]

I personally don't think we will ever have a government-free society. But I like to work towards that end, as in shrinking it.

The Constitution is not worshiped. But it is a great tool we currently have in our arsenal that the big government folks have a hard time dealing with, IMO.

I takes a lot of work to break free of the matrix and its roadblocks our politicians, lawyers and courts have put up in the defense of the State. But more and more people are doing it everyday. You just don't read about it much in the press.

[tremendoustie]

I personally don't think we will ever have a government-free society. But I like to work towards that end, as in shrinking it.

The Constitution is not worshiped. But it is a great tool we currently have in our arsenal that the big government folks have a hard time dealing with, IMO.

I takes a lot of work to break free of the matrix and its roadblocks our politicians, lawyers and courts have put up in the defense of the State. But more and more people are doing it everyday. You just don't read about it much in the press.


Well said. I disagree with your first statement, that we can never be government-free (I assume you mean coercive government), but you are exactly right that the constitution is a powerful tool to achieve more liberty, which we should wield when we believe it to be our most effective option.

I also agree with your assessment in the last paragraph. Frankly, I don't think arguments in defense of the status-quo can stand up to constitutional or voluntaryist arguments, when well presented. The main obstacle is simply that it is outside of convention. The strength of this obstacle is proportional to the number of people who believe it -- grouthink, if you will. This is why the truth has a way of spreading extremely rapidly, when the time is right. The more it spreads, the weaker the resistance to it becomes.

[Theocrat]

...and it's not pretty! :eek:

Alabama county celebrates official Obama holiday (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hJycCqeniZ9IvMG7pYc-TIbbLFPQD9BQQBD80)

I warned y'all about State worship! :(

What does that celebration have to do with worship of the State? Those individuals in that county are celebrating the Presidency of Obama (presumably because he's Black, which is racist enough). The celebration has nothing to do with worshiping civil government, and therefore, I think your comment is just a cheap attack at those who believe in the legitimacy of civil government.

[RevolutionSD]

Everyone is afraid of getting on Josh's bad side!

Had someone else uttered, "Voluntaryism won't work on this planet. Too many idiots," how many members would have jumped in to point out the problem with that view?

More than two, I venture to guess....

...only if this thread were allowed in the General Politics forum where people actually see it.

[JoshLowry]

Ok Josh let's say there are too many idiots. What do you think government is comprised of? People right? Do you think they are any smarter than the rest of the idiots? I for one do not want to be ruled over by idiots with guns.

No, I don't think they are any smarter. This country is currently set up to be run by the people.

What exactly is the blueprint to get to a Voluntaryist society?

Don't get me wrong, I would support one if it were achievable.

Common sense should tell you that we won't be going from:


Current state of big government
Educate public on Voluntaryism
Voluntaryism in America

If anything it would be something like:


Current state of big government
Educate public on small government
Elect small government politicians
Educate public on Voluntaryism
Voluntaryism in America

So point being, yeah, voluntaryism is great! But how are you going to get there? We won't just leap frog to that society unless there were a total collapse and somehow everyone was like screw government during that period of chaos. That wouldn't happen. The masses would be dieing to get ANY type of government back into power.

I would guess that a majority of the recent converts were woken up via political campaigns for small government individuals.

Get our government small and you might have a small chance to make that conversion.

Pointing out to small government supporters that they are statists won't get us anywhere. I think most of us are aware that NAP and voluntaryism are morally correct. Help us get to small government first. Educate the public and concentrate your efforts on electing small government officials. When we do have small constitutional government then start your campaign for an ancap society. Otherwise I would think that you will just be spinning your wheels in place. What's the blueprint?

[Matt Collins]

YouTube - Dune - Future Is Now (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDixGHnEKGA)

[Danke]

Thanks Matt, just what this thread needed, some trash Euro-Tech crap. (or whatever you punks call it these days).

[Matt Collins]

Thanks Matt, just what this thread needed, some trash Euro-Tech crap. (or whatever you punks call it these days).
1- Dune is awesome.
2- It's called "Happy Hardcore"
3- http://techno.org/electronic-music-guide/

[RevolutionSD]

No, I don't think they are any smarter. This country is currently set up to be run by the people.

What exactly is the blueprint to get to a Voluntaryist society?

Don't get me wrong, I would support one if it were achievable.

Common sense should tell you that we won't be going from:


Current state of big government
Educate public on Voluntaryism
Voluntaryism in America

If anything it would be something like:


Current state of big government
Educate public on small government
Elect small government politicians
Educate public on Voluntaryism
Voluntaryism in America

So point being, yeah, voluntaryism is great! But how are you going to get there? We won't just leap frog to that society unless there were a total collapse and somehow everyone was like screw government during that period of chaos. That wouldn't happen. The masses would be dieing to get ANY type of government back into power.

I would guess that a majority of the recent converts were woken up via political campaigns for small government individuals.

Get our government small and you might have a small chance to make that conversion.

Pointing out to small government supporters that they are statists won't get us anywhere. I think most of us are aware that NAP and voluntaryism are morally correct. Help us get to small government first. Educate the public and concentrate your efforts on electing small government officials. When we do have small constitutional government then start your campaign for an ancap society. Otherwise I would think that you will just be spinning your wheels in place. What's the blueprint?

Josh,

I totally get where you are coming from. I was once there myself, fully devoted to the RP campaign through the February primaries, while agreeing with the Anarcho-Capitalists at the same time.

But, I then began reading some of the books on freedomainradio and listening to podcasts, and realized that small government is an impossibility- and that I do not want to accept any amount of violence in my life.

Anyway, I can't give you a blueprint. One, I'm not a central planner, so I have no idea how every facet of a voluntary society would work. I trust in markets over politicians and central planners in every last case, whether we are talking about roads, schools, health care, or environmental issues. The free market will always find a way. That way may not work out perfectly for everyone, but it will be far better than any government pointing guns at people will come up with.

And, you are right about people demanding government. Right now, if we could snap our fingers and make government go away over night, it would be back up and running in a few days- because people would demand it. That is because the government meme is still in their heads. As long as people find it acceptable to organize society by giving one group of people the monopoly on legalized violence, government will just get bigger and bigger.

Freedom is not something we can attain with elections. Voting is what those in power want you to do. It is a long and difficult road to voluntarism. Minarchism is tempting, but impossible. You can't give people all this power and expect them to abide by a piece of paper. The constitution is just about worthless at this point, since almost nobody in gov't follows it.

Freedom, on the other hand, is something we must attain in our individual lives first. If someone has low self esteem, and dozens of unchosen positive obligations, they are not free no matter what the government is or isn't. It starts with the family and goes out from there.

You're also right that name-calling won't get us any closer to freedom.

Our major disagreement is the idea of achieving a constitutional small government society. How will this happen? People voted for McCain in the primaries last year because, like almost every politician besides RP, he promised to GET them things. As long as we allow a government, and elections, there will always be people willing to make all kinds of promises to gain power- and plenty of people gullible enough to support them.

You said people are generally idiots. I don't actually think this is the case. I think most were brainwashed with 12+ years of government schooling, and some with crazy families. But, if it is the case that there are millions of idiots out there, how would they ever be able to see that voting for a libertarian candidate will bring them freedom and prosperity?

Then there's the moral aspect to this. Why is it okay for you and the Ron Paul supporters to use the guns of government for their purposes, but not supporters of other candidates?

Anyway, I enjoy the discussing, hopefully we can keep this going and keep it civil.

I'll leave you with this video of Doug Casey & Tom Woods discussing this very thing:

Is Limited Government an Oxymoron?
YouTube - Is Limited Government an Oxymoron? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zpmqy9tC4uI)