Class Action Suit Against Pelosicare?

[pikerz]

I want to be part of this fight.

I refuse to pay for this atrocity, or let the government believe it has the authority to force me to make purchases that I do not want.

I'm sure there will be thousands of others who are willing to take the risk and refuse to comply.

Where do we sign up to get this ball rolling?

[tangent4ronpaul]

Count me in!

-t

[angelatc]

The entire bill will never be overturned. SCOTUS might overturn a bit of it, but they'll never ditch it all.

THe GOP will run on a platform of undoing it all, but obama will never sign it.

[tangent4ronpaul]

Could we go after everyone that voted for it under the RICO statute?

-t

[angelatc]

This is tyranny. Get used to it. The rights of the individual are officially secondary.

[Stary Hickory]

I will never submit either. Fight! I am tired of this, I have had it, living in fear from what those crazed loons in DC might try to do to us next.

I am tired of it! Tired of feeling threatened by a government that should be defending our liberties and rights.

[moostraks]

This is tyranny. Get used to it. The rights of the individual are officially secondary.

No. That is an unacceptable answer and exactly what they want. You can have your chains, but some of us aren't quite so willing to concede. Rolling over for government thugs has never gotten me anywhere, but pushing back at least stops them from moving further forward.

[LittleLightShining]

No. That is an unacceptable answer and exactly what they want. You can have your chains, but some of us aren't quite so willing to concede. Rolling over for government thugs has never gotten me anywhere, but pushing back at least stops them from moving further forward.

Can you please keep talking because I'm feeling very defeated right now. I have friends on facebook asking me if I'm watching too much FOX news. refusing to read actual language from the bill... Even some of the people closest to me say, "That doesn't make sense. It must not be true."

I don't understand why other people don't understand how bad this is and I really feel like we're all done. Even if we win big in 2010 it won't matter.

[awake]

Looting and plunder - whether it is a healthcare bill or petty crooks, the result remains the same.

The people in this video believe that they are entitled to the things they are taking, they know it is theft, they simply believe the store owner will not miss what is taken for he has much...besides, it is for a greater good; all the looters are better off and the selfish store owner was taught a lesson: The Collective is more important than the individual.

YouTube - Security Camera video shows looters after Lakers win (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TW9MXijChs)
YouTube - Welcome to Communist America ~Health Care Bill Passes 220-215 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnQ03kG0hUE)

Notice the government attacks the 2 lowest portions of this pyramid the most.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/Maslow%27s_Hierarchy_of_Needs.svg/450px-Maslow%27s_Hierarchy_of_Needs.svg.png

[YumYum]

Alright boys!! This is it!! Over the hill!!!!

[moostraks]

Can you please keep talking because I'm feeling very defeated right now. I have friends on facebook asking me if I'm watching too much FOX news. refusing to read actual language from the bill... Even some of the people closest to me say, "That doesn't make sense. It must not be true."

I don't understand why other people don't understand how bad this is and I really feel like we're all done. Even if we win big in 2010 it won't matter.

I totally understand the depths of your despair, but trust me on this issue-you must not concede to tyranny. Many of us knew it would have to come to a point of no return for folks to be willing to gamble everything as the cost to not fight back was not acceptable.

What is needed is a well thought out counter attack which leaves as little collateral damage to our side as possible. Attorneys with a class action law suit might be it. I think the abortion issue might be the most divisive measure we have to defeat them on this. Even if you are pro-life, play the pro-choice, poor crowd against them but it is probably a dangerous measure. If you listened to any of their arguments on the Stupak ammendment I think abortion might be the best way to rally "we the american idol watchers" to our cause. We have to get this information to them though.

Don't give up. I learned this through my issues with social services. they smell blood in the water and will continue to attack unless you continue to fight them as if there is not possibility they will win in your mind.

[MelissaWV]

I woke up and the world was upside down. It almost makes me wish I didn't have insurance, so that I could refuse to buy any. The moment people begin to actually be charged with non-compliance of this bill, it will begin to be struck down bit by bit, but I agree: we'll probably never be rid of all of it.

I had already made plans to leave the country for other reasons, as I often mention, but this is just more incentive to get the hell out. Strangely, my family has an awesome track record of leaving neighborhoods just before they absolutely disintegrate into total chaos and become unlivable. I never thought I'd have the same "luck" with the nation. I will keep fighting and funding from afar, though. This needs to push more people's buttons. I think it will... but not for a long time. In the meanwhile, we're all crazy.

[silverhandorder]

I think there are two valid fight tactics. One to immigrate and let the system collapse from the lack of people it desperately needs. The second one is to stay in the system and keep spreading seeds of discontent.

Right now I am thinking which decision I should make.

[TastyWheat]

The entire bill will never be overturned. SCOTUS might overturn a bit of it, but they'll never ditch it all.

THe GOP will run on a platform of undoing it all, but obama will never sign it.
If they were as smart about HR 3962 as they were about HR 3200 then there's a provision that states only pieces of the bill can be overturned, not the whole thing.

[TastyWheat]

I think there are two valid fight tactics. One to immigrate and let the system collapse from the lack of people it desperately needs. The second one is to stay in the system and keep spreading seeds of discontent.

Right now I am thinking which decision I should make.
Becoming an illegal alien seems to be a smart move right now.

[Matthew Zak]

I am pretty apathetic, too. :mad: :(

[LittleLightShining]

I totally understand the depths of your despair, but trust me on this issue-you must not concede to tyranny. Many of us knew it would have to come to a point of no return for folks to be willing to gamble everything as the cost to not fight back was not acceptable.

What is needed is a well thought out counter attack which leaves as little collateral damage to our side as possible. Attorneys with a class action law suit might be it. I think the abortion issue might be the most divisive measure we have to defeat them on this. Even if you are pro-life, play the pro-choice, poor crowd against them but it is probably a dangerous measure. If you listened to any of their arguments on the Stupak ammendment I think abortion might be the best way to rally "we the american idol watchers" to our cause. We have to get this information to them though.

Don't give up. I learned this through my issues with social services. they smell blood in the water and will continue to attack unless you continue to fight them as if there is not possibility they will win in your mind.

Do you really think we're going to be able to get a critical mass? I don't know. I don't think so. The media is too powerful a tool against us.

[angelatc]

If they were as smart about HR 3962 as they were about HR 3200 then there's a provision that states only pieces of the bill can be overturned, not the whole thing.

SCOTUS has ruled repeatedly that finding a particular clause illegal doesn't negate the entire law. Every time a portion of the Patriot Act has made it to Scotus it's been found unconstitutional, and yet it lives. McCain Feingold hasn't lost every challenge, but it has lost at least 2 that I know of.

[Met Income]

Alright boys!! This is it!! Over the hill!!!!

Why be a dick?

[awake]

Succession, succession, succession. Country, state, municipal, town, village household, individual. If the constitution is ever gotten back to... add this in clearly written terms.

[YumYum]

Why be a dick?


This is not the time to call me a penis. We must fight this with everything we have. We must perservere, We must rally 'round the flag boys!

[Dr.3D]

This is not the time to call me a penis. We must fight this with everything we have. We must perservere, We must rally 'round the flag boys!

Ta heck with the flag, it's the Constitution we need to rally around.

[Endgame]

Desperation. You think the courts won't dismiss this?

[moostraks]

Do you really think we're going to be able to get a critical mass? I don't know. I don't think so. The media is too powerful a tool against us.

THe key to solving the problem lies with us arming both sides of the argument so that they defeat the issue for us. I think our numbers are too small and the public has proven unwilling to listen to reason and logic. So attack the issue by using the abortion issue to have them attack each other.

Most of us came from a background where we know people on a side of the issue that has its abortion decision written in stone. Point out how this bill will have to make a decision on which side it will fall. With the Stupak ammendment the entitlement to abortion coverage is unobtainable to poor people. They will either have to pay out of pocket for the procedure, have to stop having sex, or accept the children that occur as consequence. This is untenable by most pro-choice activists as the poor are the considered risk group.

Conversely, if you provide insurance and free the monies for the poor to purchase abortion insurance you will by default be purchasing or more accurately enabling the abortions to be done. There lay the ammunition for the pro-life crowd.

I am not yet seeing a middle ground on this issue that can be achieved. One side will have to lose in order for this bill to go through.

We do not need a consensus on this issue, we need them to disagree and disagree with each other vehemently. Divide and conquer. With pitchfork and torches we can be destroyed, but by arming the enemy and sending them out to fight maybe we can stand a chance here.

Attorneys on this issue for both sides might also be what is ultimately required. Sadly money and viscious lawyer has achieved more than the best of intentions in most cases.

[YumYum]

THe key to solving the problem lies with us arming both sides of the argument so that they defeat the issue for us. I think our numbers are too small and the public has proven unwilling to listen to reason and logic. So attack the issue by using the abortion issue to have them attack each other.

Most of us came from a background where we know people on a side of the issue that has its abortion decision written in stone. Point out how this bill will have to make a decision on which side it will fall. With the Stupak ammendment the entitlement to abortion coverage is unobtainable to poor people. They will either have to pay out of pocket for the procedure, have to stop having sex, or accept the children that occur as consequence. This is untenable by most pro-choice activists as the poor are the considered risk group.

Conversely, if you provide insurance and free the monies for the poor to purchase abortion insurance you will by default be purchasing or more accurately enabling the abortions to be done. There lay the ammunition for the pro-life crowd.


I am not yet seeing a middle ground on this issue that can be achieved. One side will have to lose in order for this bill to go through.

We do not need a consensus on this issue, we need them to disagree and disagree with each other vehemently. Divide and conquer. With pitchfork and torches we can be destroyed, but by arming the enemy and sending them out to fight maybe we can stand a chance here.

Attorneys on this issue for both sides might also be what is ultimately required. Sadly money and viscious lawyer has achieved more than the best of intentions in most cases.

Then let's do it! Who do we call?

[moostraks]

Desperation. You think the courts won't dismiss this?

They might but then you try harder and go higher. Sadly money is a large key to the issue. A viscious, intelligent attorney is better than rolling over and showing your throat. The bailout was bad enough, but this is hubris at its best. This has extreme far reaching effects we could only begin to fathom. Much like cap and trade but it is your body not your home being invaded.

[moostraks]

Then let's do it! Who do we call?

That's the problem. Who the heck has or knows or for that matter is a good, viscious (as in intelligent and not necessarily ethical attorney) who is willling to tackle this issue? Generally the somewhat morally bankrupt attorneys are better from what I have seen. They are willing to take risks.

[Goldhunter27]

I was thinking about this last night and today. I'm already dealing with this shit here in MA. I'm not even sure how much I owe in penalties right now for not taking part in this bullshit.

[LittleLightShining]

THe key to solving the problem lies with us arming both sides of the argument so that they defeat the issue for us. I think our numbers are too small and the public has proven unwilling to listen to reason and logic. So attack the issue by using the abortion issue to have them attack each other.

Most of us came from a background where we know people on a side of the issue that has its abortion decision written in stone. Point out how this bill will have to make a decision on which side it will fall. With the Stupak ammendment the entitlement to abortion coverage is unobtainable to poor people. They will either have to pay out of pocket for the procedure, have to stop having sex, or accept the children that occur as consequence. This is untenable by most pro-choice activists as the poor are the considered risk group.

Conversely, if you provide insurance and free the monies for the poor to purchase abortion insurance you will by default be purchasing or more accurately enabling the abortions to be done. There lay the ammunition for the pro-life crowd.

I am not yet seeing a middle ground on this issue that can be achieved. One side will have to lose in order for this bill to go through.

We do not need a consensus on this issue, we need them to disagree and disagree with each other vehemently. Divide and conquer. With pitchfork and torches we can be destroyed, but by arming the enemy and sending them out to fight maybe we can stand a chance here.

Attorneys on this issue for both sides might also be what is ultimately required. Sadly money and viscious lawyer has achieved more than the best of intentions in most cases.I like this. I was talking to yet another close friend today who dismissed the whole jail time thing as conservative scary talk. She was, however, very interested in the abortion issue.

[tangent4ronpaul]

Think both the Judge and ACLU might do this pro-bono

-t

[FSP-Rebel]

Think both the Judge and ACLU might do this pro-bono

-t
Also, get in touch with the Institute for Justice @ http://ij.org

[libertygrl]

That's the problem. Who the heck has or knows or for that matter is a good, viscious (as in intelligent and not necessarily ethical attorney) who is willling to tackle this issue? Generally the somewhat morally bankrupt attorneys are better from what I have seen. They are willing to take risks.

TRY THIS PLACE:


"When founding The Rutherford Institute, my goal was to create an organization that would defend people who were persecuted or oppressed without charging them for such services. The Rutherford Institute exists to ensure that people are treated fairly in the courts and are free to express themselves without fear."
— John W. Whitehead, President and Founder of The Rutherford Institute

Founded in 1982 by constitutional attorney and author John W. Whitehead, The Rutherford Institute is a civil liberties organization that provides free legal services to people whose constitutional and human rights have been threatened or violated.

The Rutherford Institute has emerged as one of the nation's leading advocates of civil liberties and human rights, litigating in the courts and educating the public on a wide spectrum of issues affecting individual freedom in the United States and around the world.

The Institute’s mission is twofold: to provide legal services in the defense of religious and civil liberties and to educate the public on important issues affecting their constitutional freedoms.

Whether our attorneys are protecting the rights of parents whose children are strip-searched at school, standing up for a teacher fired for speaking about religion or defending the rights of individuals against illegal search and seizure, The Rutherford Institute offers assistance—and hope—to thousands.

http://www.rutherford.org/

[Mini-Me]

Think both the Judge and ACLU might do this pro-bono

-t

The ACLU? I doubt that. Really, I think the ACLU is more likely to go pro bono for the government on this particular issue. They may stick to their principles on issues like torture, due process, etc. no matter who is in power (though they still act more sympathetic to the Democrats, as if the Dems "want" to do the right thing but don't have the courage to stand against the evil Republicans :rolleyes: ), but they're still a fundamentally liberal group at their core. That's why they pay just as much attention to pushing anti-discrimination laws that infringe on private contracts, why they believe the Second Amendment is a "collective right," etc. I really don't see them standing up for individuals here whatsoever.

[moostraks]

Also, get in touch with the Institute for Justice @ http://ij.org

THis looks interesting, wonder what their track record is?

[moostraks]

TRY THIS PLACE:


"When founding The Rutherford Institute, my goal was to create an organization that would defend people who were persecuted or oppressed without charging them for such services. The Rutherford Institute exists to ensure that people are treated fairly in the courts and are free to express themselves without fear."
— John W. Whitehead, President and Founder of The Rutherford Institute

Founded in 1982 by constitutional attorney and author John W. Whitehead, The Rutherford Institute is a civil liberties organization that provides free legal services to people whose constitutional and human rights have been threatened or violated.

The Rutherford Institute has emerged as one of the nation's leading advocates of civil liberties and human rights, litigating in the courts and educating the public on a wide spectrum of issues affecting individual freedom in the United States and around the world.

The Institute’s mission is twofold: to provide legal services in the defense of religious and civil liberties and to educate the public on important issues affecting their constitutional freedoms.

Whether our attorneys are protecting the rights of parents whose children are strip-searched at school, standing up for a teacher fired for speaking about religion or defending the rights of individuals against illegal search and seizure, The Rutherford Institute offers assistance—and hope—to thousands.

http://www.rutherford.org/

This might be a place to turn for a pro-life stance.

[moostraks]

Think both the Judge and ACLU might do this pro-bono

-t

I actually thought ACLU for the pro-choice avenue might be possible as that sounds like their speed. I have heard they are a hit or miss organization.

[moostraks]

I like this. I was talking to yet another close friend today who dismissed the whole jail time thing as conservative scary talk. She was, however, very interested in the abortion issue.

Which is where I think using this divisive issue, especially by a small army of internet using folks, could stir up discontent and possibly get them to do the dirty work for us in large part. Seems better than doing nothing.

Woman are incredibly passionate about this issue, whichever the stance may be and they are not going to be too keen on a group of elitest making these decisions for them or spending their money on a matter they can't spiritually palette.

What is funny is that regarding the jail time, it will be tax evasion if you fail to comply or pay the penalty. I think we need to wake people up to how they are rationalizing these fines. We are funding an entire private industry at threat of tax evasion consequences. This is the banker bailout quite clearly and publicly at the point of a gun but for the healthcare industry. The insanity is mindboggling.

[tangent4ronpaul]

The ACLU? I doubt that. Really, I think the ACLU is more likely to go pro bono for the government on this particular issue. They may stick to their principles on issues like torture, due process, etc. no matter who is in power (though they still act more sympathetic to the Democrats, as if the Dems "want" to do the right thing but don't have the courage to stand against the evil Republicans :rolleyes: ), but they're still a fundamentally liberal group at their core. That's why they pay just as much attention to pushing anti-discrimination laws that infringe on private contracts, why they believe the Second Amendment is a "collective right," etc. I really don't see them standing up for individuals here whatsoever.

ACLU never backs the government.

They really have not taken a stance on the health care bill, as far as I can find. the reasons I think they would be interested is:

rationing of health care to seniors
federal mandate that individuals must purchase insurance
inevitable bankruptcy of people forced to purchase insurance
astronomical fines and jail time for not buying insurance
etc.

The other suggested orgs look good! - thanks!

-t

[Civilradiant_palm_pre]

still haven't seen anyone post any info on how this "tax" works, how much it costs or if there is an opt out.

[Original_Intent]

The entire bill will never be overturned. SCOTUS might overturn a bit of it, but they'll never ditch it all.

THe GOP will run on a platform of undoing it all, but obama will never sign it.

We need to get people to run on a platform that they will not vote for any budget or any other legislation until this gets undone. That's assuming it gets thru the Senate which I have hopes that it will not. But if it does make it to law we have got to, thru Congress, take the entire train off the rails if need be to get this PoS repealed.

[MelissaWV]

still haven't seen anyone post any info on how this "tax" works, how much it costs or if there is an opt out.

^ This. The "opt out" would seem to be paying the tax/fine. Also, in listening to the news about this bill, there seem to be a lot of "most" and "some" and "nearly all" thrown about, which makes me wonder why ever clause seems to have loopholes. I will go out on a limb and conjecture that these loopholes won't benefit those of us here on the board.

[tangent4ronpaul]

^ This. The "opt out" would seem to be paying the tax/fine. Also, in listening to the news about this bill, there seem to be a lot of "most" and "some" and "nearly all" thrown about, which makes me wonder why ever clause seems to have loopholes. I will go out on a limb and conjecture that these loopholes won't benefit those of us here on the board.

As I understand it, if you opt to not buy the MINIMUM $15,000K a year in GOVERNMENT APPROVED insurance, you can get out of it by paying a $750 a year "fine". If your insurance lapses for even a day, you have to pay the "fine". Paying the "fine" leaves you uninsured. If you are employed but not getting GOVERNMENT APPROVED insurance through your employer, then your employer gets "fined" too.

If you fail to maintain GOVERNMENT APPROVED insurance 365 days a year OR pay the $750 a year "fine", you can be charged with a misdemeanor and fined up to $250,000 and/or jailed for up to 1 year. There is also a felony charge that I believe leaves you liable for up to a $750,000 fine and up to 5 years in jail. It's not clear what the difference between the misdemeanor and the felony charge is.

Now, if you make less than 400% of the federal poverty level, you qualify for government "subsidies" to help pay for it. Close to 400% this subsidy is almost nothing. At poverty level - you pretty much get it paid for 100%.

-t

[MelissaWV]

Tangent, given that option, I'd rather pay the $750 because it's cheaper than having to deal with the other option (getting insurance, maintaining it, etc.). It's sad that we'd even have to bother worrying about either evil. At that point, I'd be paying $750/year in fines, plus taxes towards a system I'm not using, plus I'd still be out of pocket for any medical expenses I happened to end up with. The other option is to buy in and get my "money's worth", or pay for my own insurance and still be paying taxes towards a program I do not use.

If what you said is accurate, there's something interesting to note:

The 2009 Poverty Guidelines for the 48 Contiguous States and DC
Persons in family $Poverty guideline
1 $10,830
2 14,570
3 18,310
4 22,050
5 25,790
6 29,530
7 33,270
8 37,010
For families with more than 8 persons, add $3,740 for each additional person

So if you are single, you get the public option paid for until a little over $40,000. Depending on where you are, $40,000 really isn't much money. On top of that, if you are a single professional, well, you're definitely going to make more than that. That's the point at which you're going to end up paying for others and getting nothing out of that system. You will likely have insurance through your employer, and make $40,000+ per year. Those making LESS are going to weigh their options. If it's cheaper to use the Government option, perhaps people will flock there. Then there's the people with pre-existing conditions.

So we're talking anyone making under 400% of what I posted above, plus the pre-existing condition people, plus others who simply don't have the wherewithall to research and come up with money for insurance on their own. That last category will be aided by premiums going up and out of their range. Woof.

[Civilradiant_palm_pre]

As I understand it, if you opt to not buy the MINIMUM $15,000K a year in GOVERNMENT APPROVED insurance, you can get out of it by paying a $750 a year "fine". If your insurance lapses for even a day, you have to pay the "fine". Paying the "fine" leaves you uninsured. If you are employed but not getting GOVERNMENT APPROVED insurance through your employer, then your employer gets "fined" too.

If you fail to maintain GOVERNMENT APPROVED insurance 365 days a year OR pay the $750 a year "fine", you can be charged with a misdemeanor and fined up to $250,000 and/or jailed for up to 1 year. There is also a felony charge that I believe leaves you liable for up to a $750,000 fine and up to 5 years in jail. It's not clear what the difference between the misdemeanor and the felony charge is.

Now, if you make less than 400% of the federal poverty level, you qualify for government "subsidies" to help pay for it. Close to 400% this subsidy is almost nothing. At poverty level - you pretty much get it paid for 100%.

-t

that is not what was said earlier in the thread, it was mentioned that the fine may be only for if you refuse to pay what could be a small tax, I think the bottom line right now is that we don't know which is annoying me, I will make some calls.

[MelissaWV]

that is not what was said earlier in the thread, it was mentioned that the fine may be only for if you refuse to pay what could be a small tax, I think the bottom line right now is that we don't know which is annoying me, I will make some calls.

He's saying the "tax" is $750 a year. The fines/jail are if you fail to pay that.

[Civilradiant_palm_pre]

He's saying the "tax" is $750 a year. The fines/jail are if you fail to pay that.

I just find that hard to believe and wish we could get some reliable confirmation before gettin my rabble rabble torch out.

will hit the phones tomarrow

[jsu718]

It is always possible that the fine could be eliminated with the merge with the Senate version of the bill.

[tangent4ronpaul]

So if you are single, you get the public option paid for until a little over $40,000.

umm, no - it's a sliding scale. If you make in the $35-40,000 range the government would give you maybe a couple of hundred bucks off your insurance on the public dime. You would still be paying very close to $15,000 a year in insurance.

You get a free ride, or close to it if you make $10,000 a year.

-t

[jsu718]

umm, no - it's a sliding scale. If you make in the $35-40,000 range the government would give you maybe a couple of hundred bucks off your insurance on the public dime. You would still be paying very close to $15,000 a year in insurance.

You get a free ride, or close to it if you make $10,000 a year.

-t

From the numbers I have seen, at $45k you pay ~$8000 a year. Could be wrong...

Edit: $44,000 before taxes, a $5,300 premium and $2,000 in out-of-pocket expenses... $7300 total

[tangent4ronpaul]

From the numbers I have seen, at $45k you pay ~$8000 a year. Could be wrong...

Edit: $44,000 before taxes, a $5,300 premium and $2,000 in out-of-pocket expenses... $7300 total

I think you are correct - the $15,000 is for a family of 2.

still - 44,000 - 14,500 ( ~taxes) = 30,000 - 8,000 = 22,000 a year for everything else. It gets worse if you make $35,000 etc.

But hay - what 20 something would have a problem giving 1/4 of their yearly income for something they don't need or want?

-t

[LittleLightShining]

I just find that hard to believe and wish we could get some reliable confirmation before gettin my rabble rabble torch out.

will hit the phones tomarrow

This makes me think that EVERYONE should get everyone they know to start calling their reps and senators asking for an explanation. Don't let them brush you off, keep them busy.

[Dianne]

Let's go for this !!!!! It is unconstitutional.... corrupt... sickening... dishonest.... I mean guys... at some point we have to throw some liars in jail and Pelosi is a good place to start.

[JeNNiF00F00]

Can you please keep talking because I'm feeling very defeated right now. I have friends on facebook asking me if I'm watching too much FOX news. refusing to read actual language from the bill... Even some of the people closest to me say, "That doesn't make sense. It must not be true."

I don't understand why other people don't understand how bad this is and I really feel like we're all done. Even if we win big in 2010 it won't matter.

Exactly. My family is saying "there is no way they will be able to put that many people in jail, there is something not right to that." Its slapping them right in the face and they are in total denial. This is why we all need to stick together right now.