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wildfirepower
11-04-2009, 07:07 AM
The Pentagon has approached Congress to grant the Secretary of Defense the authority to post almost 400,000 military personnel throughout the United States in times of emergency or a major disaster.

This request has already occasioned a dispute with the nation’s governors. And it raises the prospect of U.S. military personnel patrolling the streets of the United States, in conflict with the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878.

In June, the U.S. Northern Command distributed a “Congressional Fact Sheet” entitled “Legislative Proposal for Activation of Federal Reserve Forces for Disasters.” That proposal would amend current law, thereby “authorizing the Secretary of Defense to order any unit or member of the Army Reserve, Air Force Reserve, Navy Reserve, and the Marine Corps Reserve, to active duty for a major disaster or emergency.”

Taken together, these reserve units would amount to “more than 379,000 military personnel in thousands of communities across the United States,” explained

Paul Stockton, Assistant Secretary of Defense for Homeland Defense and America’s Security Affairs, in a letter to the National Governors Association, dated July 20.

The governors were not happy about this proposal, since they want to maintain control of their own National Guard forces, as well as military personnel acting in a domestic capacity in their states.

“We are concerned that the legislative proposal you discuss in your letter would invite confusion on critical command and control issues,” Governor James H. Douglas of Vermont and Governor Joe Manchin III of West Virginia, the president and vice president of the governors’ association, wrote in a letter back to Stockton on August 7. The governors asserted that they “must have tactical control over all . . . active duty and reserve military forces engaged in domestic operations within the governor’s state or territory.”

According to Pentagon public affairs officer Lt. Col. Almarah K. Belk, Stockton has not responded formally to the governors but understands their concerns.

“There is a rub there,” she said. “If the Secretary calls up the reserve personnel to provide support in a state and retains command and control of those forces, the governors are concerned about if I have command and control of the Guard, how do we ensure unity of effort and everyone is communicating and not running over each other.”

Belk said Stockton is addressing this problem. “That is exactly what Dr. Stockton is working out right now with the governors and DHS and the National Guard,” she said. “He’s bringing all the stakeholders together.”

Belk said the legislative change is necessary in the aftermath of a “catastrophic natural disaster, not beyond that,” and she referred to Katrina, among other events.

But NorthCom’s Congressional fact sheet refers not just to a “major disaster” but also to “emergencies.” And it says, “Those terms are defined in section 5122 of title 42, U.S. Code.”

That section gives the President the sole discretion to designate an event as an “emergency” or a “major disaster.” Both are “in the determination of the President” alone.

That section also defines “major disaster” by citing plenty of specifics: “hurricane, tornado, storm, high water, wind-driven water, tidal wave, tsunami, earthquake, volcanic eruption, landslide, mudslide, snowstorm, or drought,” as well as “fire, flood, or explosion.”

But the definition of “emergency” is vague: “Emergency means any occasion or instance for which, in the determination of the President, Federal assistance is needed to supplement State and local efforts and capabilities to save lives and to protect property and public health and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a catastrophe in any part of the United States.”

Currently, the President can call up the Reserves only in an emergency involving “a use or threatened use of a weapon of mass destruction” or “a terrorist attack or threatened terrorist attack in the United States that results, or could result, in significant loss of life or property,” according to Title 10, Chapter 1209, Section 12304, of the U.S. Code. In fact, Section 12304 explicitly prohibits the President from calling up the Reserves for any other “natural or manmade disaster, accident, or catastrophe.”

So the new proposed legislation would greatly expand the President’s power to call up the Reserves in a disaster or an emergency and would extend that power to the Secretary of Defense. (There are other circumstances, such as repelling invasions or rebellions or enforcing federal authority, where the President already has the authority to call up the Reserves.)

The ACLU is alarmed by the proposed legislation. Mike German, the ACLU’s national security policy counsel, expressed amazement “that the military would propose such a broad set of authorities and potentially undermine a 100-year-old prohibition against the military in domestic law enforcement with no public debate and seemingly little understanding of the threat to democracy.”

At the moment, says Pentagon spokesperson Belk, the legislation does not have a sponsor in the House or the Senate.

http://www.progressive.org/wx081209b.html

sevin
11-04-2009, 07:45 AM
400,000? Are there even that many in the middle east? Are they declaring war on their own country?

Austrian Econ Disciple
11-04-2009, 08:39 AM
Hey fuckers Posse Comitatus. I'm a Military Member and I will refuse any order's to do any of the heinous activities that occurred in Katrina in regards to civil liberties. Luckily, my branch, the Coast Guard, didn't go around and violate the rights of the citizenry.

This should out-rage everyone. There is simply no need, and breaks our law.

timebomb101
11-04-2009, 09:13 AM
http://www.arnorth.army.mil/

i think it's here?

kahless
11-04-2009, 09:42 AM
If we are talking about a disaster no doubt they are considering the consequences of an economic collapse.

jkr
11-04-2009, 10:02 AM
remeber "we have to fight them there so we wont have to fight them there"?

who were THEY talking aboot?
MIC

Reason
11-04-2009, 11:54 AM
do we have additional links/coverage on this?

Dieseler
11-04-2009, 12:07 PM
They are Our kids, Our Fathers and Our Mothers, Our Sisters and Our Brothers.
They are Our friends and acquaintances.
They are not machines nor are they animals and most certainly, to us, they are not pawns in any sort of game.
Tell them about Oathkeepers today or at least the next time you talk with them.

Reason
11-04-2009, 01:22 PM
need some more sources to back this up before I spread it, having trouble finding any myself

Naraku
11-04-2009, 01:51 PM
The Constitution specifically puts defense against domestic threats within the purview of the federal government. I think the guiding principle however should be whether the threat faced is of a scale beyond the capacity of state forces.

youngbuck
11-04-2009, 02:08 PM
They are Our kids, Our Fathers and Our Mothers, Our Sisters and Our Brothers.
They are Our friends and acquaintances.
They are not machines nor are they animals and most certainly, to us, they are not pawns in any sort of game.
Tell them about Oathkeepers today or at least the next time you talk with them.

Absolute, this bears worth repeating.

catdd
11-04-2009, 04:42 PM
This could turn out to be the proverbial straw. If the feds have their way it will be the end of state rights.
This is of major importance and I've written the governor twice so far concerning the authority over the National Guard.

pcosmar
11-04-2009, 04:47 PM
The Constitution specifically puts defense against domestic threats within the purview of the federal government. I think the guiding principle however should be whether the threat faced is of a scale beyond the capacity of state forces.

The Federal Government IS the domestic threat.
An armed population is the defense.

I have hope for the OathKeepers, They could be our 5th Column. ;)

OrganDonor
11-04-2009, 04:53 PM
can this have anything to do with the mandatory vaccinations and the chips they are planning on putting in our wrists? mass evacuation busses, state troopers training for road blocks, and now 400k soldiers?

catdd
11-04-2009, 04:53 PM
The Federal Government IS the domestic threat.
An armed population is the defense.

I have hope for the OathKeepers, They could be our 5th Column. ;)

yep

phill4paul
11-04-2009, 04:58 PM
Though I keep trying to educate individuals and keep donating I am beginning to believe that there is already a pre-determined course set by the government that no amount of political involvement will sway.
But I will keep trying. Hoping for the best, but preparing for the worst.

Naraku
11-05-2009, 11:37 AM
The Federal Government IS the domestic threat.
An armed population is the defense.

Yeah, ok. There is nothing else to worry about and what the Constitution says doesn't matter. :rolleyes:

rpfan2008
11-05-2009, 11:49 AM
400 000??? absolutely ridiculous!!!

If US could manage 400 000 troops they would have already deployed them in Afghanistan for a final showdown. US can't move troops from Iraq nor Korea or any other garrison. US is facing this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_overstretch), for good.

paulitics
11-05-2009, 11:59 AM
400 000??? absolutely ridiculous!!!

If US could manage 400 000 troops they would have already deployed them in Afghanistan for a final showdown. US can't move troops from Iraq nor Korea or any other garrison. US is facing this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_overstretch), for good.

They could replace all of the US troops with U.N troops, etc. I agree that this does seem too far fetched too soon, but I can see the possibility, due to the transition that is occuring in the world from national empire, to globalist empire. Once our dollar crashes, anything is possible.

Dieseler
11-05-2009, 12:12 PM
400 000??? absolutely ridiculous!!!

If US could manage 400 000 troops they would have already deployed them in Afghanistan for a final showdown. US can't move troops from Iraq nor Korea or any other garrison. US is facing this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_overstretch), for good.

A total of 1,083,027 personnel are on active duty within the United States and its territories (including those afloat)
The vast majority, 883,430 of them, are stationed at various bases within the Contiguous United States.
There are an additional 36,827 in Hawaii and 19,828 in Alaska. 90,218 are at sea while there are 2,970 in Guam and 137 in Puerto Rico.
The U.S, could easily deploy 400,000 troops within its own borders because they are already here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_armed_forces#Within_the_United_State s

klamath
11-05-2009, 12:32 PM
Actually this is the direct result of Katrina that Bush was so wrongly slammed about.
For peoples information Federal troops are deployed accross the US all the time and always have been. Federal troops took over and ran Yellowston nation park for its first 30 years under general Sheridan. Federal troops are deployed to major forest fires all the time. All emergency managment chain of comands start out local and move up all the way to the federal level. I have worked in and around emergency management for years. Nearly all search and rescues start at the local level until the resources are overwhelmed and mutual aid is called in from othe counties, state levels then up to federal levels. Scott AFB in IL is the headquarters for federal Search and rescue. From there it can even go up to asking for mutual aid from foreign countries through the state department.
So much infra structure was destroyed during Katrina that mutual aid came from all over the county including my CA guard unit.
The intra agency fighting and conflicts with the chain of command are what messed up the Katrina response and Bush took hell for it though this is one of the few areas Bush didn't need it. There was no real command and control to coordinate all the resourses of which there was plenty. It was used as way to slam Bush politically because he didn't take complete command control through the federal military which is the only agency that has the experiance and tools to control that large amount of resources in an environment where all infrastructure had been destroyed. So now we have laws being pushed to allow the feds to take over an operation where it does not need to.

rpfan2008
11-05-2009, 12:35 PM
^ Interesting.

Aren't they already parts of defensive formations?

I understand the strategy of strike corps, defensive corps and home defense formations etc .. to me it appears they are already a part of domestic defensive military buildup , but who knows they may be relocated for civilian purposes.


A total of 1,083,027 personnel are on active duty within the United States and its territories (including those afloat)
The vast majority, 883,430 of them, are stationed at various bases within the Contiguous United States.
There are an additional 36,827 in Hawaii and 19,828 in Alaska. 90,218 are at sea while there are 2,970 in Guam and 137 in Puerto Rico.
The U.S, could easily deploy 400,000 troops within its own borders because they are already here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_armed_forces#Within_the_United_State s

Vessol
11-05-2009, 02:32 PM
The Progressive is, as Nader called it, a Corporate Democrat publication.

tommyzDad
11-05-2009, 03:00 PM
I guess someone thinks he's Sulla reincarnate: http://www.roman-empire.net/republic/sulla.html.


He marched on Rome at the head of six legions.....

sevin
11-05-2009, 03:11 PM
How many troops are in the middle east right now?

Dieseler
11-05-2009, 03:16 PM
142,000 in Iraq and about 31,000 in Afghanistan.

sevin
11-05-2009, 03:21 PM
142,000 in Iraq and about 31,000 in Afghanistan.

:eek:

So they're talking about posting MORE THAN TWICE as many troops in the U.S. as in the middle east? WTF are they expecting?

hillbilly123069
11-05-2009, 03:30 PM
This is titled wrong.It should read "Obama wants authority to...

Dieseler
11-05-2009, 03:33 PM
:eek:

So they're talking about posting MORE THAN TWICE as many troops in the U.S. as in the middle east? WTF are they expecting?

They are already here.
They're Americans just like us, well over a million of them.
Fathers, Mothers, Brothers, Sisters, Uncles, Aunts, Friends and acquaintances.

Dieseler
11-05-2009, 03:38 PM
Seriously, they are planning for social economic unrest.
The Military will be used and the people will cry for them to be used.
As long as they don't do anything to impede me from being able to defend my home and family I won't bother them nor will I question their authority as they restore and maintain order.
If they do, then they will have to kill me.
My biggest question is this, when order is restored, will they be returning to their bases or like everything else the Government does, will this new power remain eternal to them.
I can't abide by that either.
Do your job and go home.
The Fort is your home.

werdd
11-05-2009, 03:52 PM
Probably the best way to prevent a serious uprising against the government. If the resistance is quickly squelched and not allowed to spread, then it will never pick up enough steam. It will just be a few small groups, domestic terrorist.

If this scenario ever does happen, it will be interesting to see what the army personell will do. Will they turn the gun on their own people?

Hopefully not.

Dieseler
11-05-2009, 04:06 PM
Probably the best way to prevent a serious uprising against the government. If the resistance is quickly squelched and not allowed to spread, then it will never pick up enough steam. It will just be a few small groups, domestic terrorist.

If this scenario ever does happen, it will be interesting to see what the army personell will do. Will they turn the gun on their own people?

Hopefully not.

If they are fired upon or are met with resistance while following orders they will.