View Full Version : Which is the greatest commandments of God?
"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.” (http://www.uocofusa.org/news_070925_2.html) (Matthew 22:36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2022&version=NKJV))
UnReconstructed
11-03-2009, 10:37 PM
++good
The Psalms
24
The King of Glory
A Psalm of David.
(http://www.bartleby.com/108/19/24.html#S24)
1 The earth is the LORD's, and the fulness thereof;
the world, and they that dwell therein.
2 For he hath founded it upon the seas,
and established it upon the floods.
3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD?
Or who shall stand in his holy place?
4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart;
who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity,nor sworn deceitfully.
5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD,
and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
6 This is the generation of them that seek him,
that seek thy face, O Jacob.
Selah.
7 Lift up your heads, O ye gates;and be ye lifted up, ye everlasting doors;
and the King of glory shall come in.
8 Who is this King of glory?
The LORD strong and mighty,
the LORD mighty in battle.
9 Lift up your heads, O ye gates;
even lift them up, ye everlasting doors;
and the King of glory shall come in.
10 Who is this King of glory?
The LORD of hosts,
he is the King of glory.
Selah.
Mitt Romneys sideburns
11-03-2009, 11:22 PM
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images.
Yet the Christians insist upon stacking up giant crosses everywhere they go. . .
And plastering fish symbols on the back of their car. . .
If I was a believer in Jesus, I would likely be swayed towards Jehovah's Witness. They dont use any religious symbols whatsoever because they believe it to be a form of idolatry.
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images.
Yet the Christians insist upon stacking up giant crosses everywhere they go. . .
And plastering fish symbols on the back of their car. . .
If I was a believer in Jesus, I would likely be swayed towards Jehovah's Witness. They dont use any religious symbols whatsoever because they believe it to be a form of idolatry.
please read this and come back to me if you have any questions: On the Incarnation by St. Athanasius (http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/theology/incarnation_st_athanasius.pdf)
Mitt Romneys sideburns
11-03-2009, 11:29 PM
please read this and come back to me if you have any questions: On the Incarnation by St. Athanasius (http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/theology/incarnation_st_athanasius.pdf)
Im not reading 91 pages. Why dont you try explaining it in your own words?
I have made the proposition that the cross, along with other religious symbols, violates the commandment against graven images. Do you have a counter argument?
Working Poor
11-03-2009, 11:31 PM
Love One Another
Mitt Romneys sideburns
11-03-2009, 11:35 PM
My favorite:
Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves
Im not reading 91 pages. Why dont you try explaining it in your own words?
I have made the proposition that the cross, along with other religious symbols, violates the commandment against graven images. Do you have a counter argument?
my newborn is sleepin in my arms now, so I can't type alot. read On the Incarnation by St. Athanasius (http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/theology/incarnation_st_athanasius.pdf)
Mitt Romneys sideburns
11-03-2009, 11:44 PM
my newborn is sleepin in my arms now, so I can't type alot. read On the Incarnation by St. Athanasius (http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/theology/incarnation_st_athanasius.pdf)
I just told you 3 posts ago. Im not reading 91 pages. You are going to have to make your own arguments. Not link me to a manifesto of someone elses ideas. You gotta come up with your own ideas bud.
he is a saint, i am a sinner
ok, baby is back in the crib.
MRS, you dismiss God because you think you know everything.
If you were a lover of truth, than you would read the link I gave you. But rather, it is on account of fear that you refuse to read it. What is it you are fearful of but that you might actually hear the truth and come to believe? Please stop bashing and 'contributing' to Christ-centered threads until you do your part and educate yourself.
Mitt Romneys sideburns
11-04-2009, 12:08 AM
he is a saint, i am a sinner
First off, I would like to see your biblical justification to your claim that saints are free from sin.
And as a sinner, you have no responsibility to answer questions or hold opinions?
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asks you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear 1Pe 3:15
First off, I would like to see your biblical justification to your claim that saints are free from sin.
And as a sinner, you have no responsibility to answer questions or hold opinions?
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asks you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear 1Pe 3:15
No one said saints are free from sin. Only Christ is free from sin, which is why He is our salvation.
Read the link above and maybe you won't have so many questions.
On the Incarnation by St. Athanasius (http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/theology/incarnation_st_athanasius.pdf)
Mitt Romneys sideburns
11-04-2009, 12:27 AM
On the Incarnation by St. Athanasius (http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/theology/incarnation_st_athanasius.pdf)
You can stop posting the link, because Im not going to read 91 pages.
If we are going to have a discussion like actual humans, you are going to have to formulate ideas and arguments on your own.
Why do you think I am wrong in my assessment that crosses and fish and other religious symbols are forms of idolatry?
YumYum
11-04-2009, 12:30 AM
On the Incarnation by St. Athanasius (http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/theology/incarnation_st_athanasius.pdf)
Do you believe in the Trinity?
YumYum
11-04-2009, 12:33 AM
You can stop posting the link, because Im not going to read 91 pages.
If we are going to have a discussion like actual humans, you are going to have to formulate ideas and arguments on your own.
Why do you think I am wrong in my assessment that crosses and fish and other religious symbols are forms of idolatry?
You are not. Chritians worship the cross. That would be like a Southerner worshipping the gun that killed Lincoln.
Mitt Romneys sideburns
11-04-2009, 12:36 AM
Do you believe in the Trinity?
Hes not going to answer you. He is just going to link you to a 400 page novel that is vaguely related to the subject.
Dr.3D
11-04-2009, 12:39 AM
If Jesus had been killed with an electric chair, would there be a lot of buildings around with electric chairs on the roof? Would a lot of those same buildings also have an altar with a golden electric chair on it?
Edit: Would a lot of people be walking around wearing little electric chairs on chains around there necks?
YumYum
11-04-2009, 12:51 AM
If Jesus had been killed with an electric chair, would there be a lot of buildings around with electric chairs on the roof? Would a lot of those same buildings also have an altar with a golden electric chair on it?
Right. So it begs the question: why do Christians worship the cross when the Bible says not to?
Dr.3D
11-04-2009, 12:54 AM
Right. So it begs the question: why do Christians worship the cross when the Bible says not to?
You need to qualify that question with some Christians. I am Christian but I don't bow down to statues or worship anything man has constructed.
My guess would be that they don't know any better because they have been listening to someone tell them what the Bible says, rather than reading it for themselves.
Mitt Romneys sideburns
11-04-2009, 12:56 AM
they have been listening to someone tell them what the Bible says, rather than reading it for themselves.
Exactly. Do you honestly think the OP has actually read that link he keeps posting?
You can stop posting the link, because Im not going to read 91 pages.
If we are going to have a discussion like actual humans, you are going to have to formulate ideas and arguments on your own.
Why do you think I am wrong in my assessment that crosses and fish and other religious symbols are forms of idolatry?
Are you so challenged by 91 pages that you refuse to read them? What are you afraid of?
Your question regarding crosses and fish and other religious symbols are exactly that- symbols. Their is no idolatry. Even Moses, after receiving the Ten Commandments, used religious symbols. The Ark of the Covenant had cherubim on the mantle, the snake on the staff (a pre-figuration of the Crucified Lord) which the Israelites gazed at in order to receive healing from the poisonous bites of the serpents. These are all symbols and sources of healing through God's grace in creation. But all of this pointed to and find its fulfillment in the Incarnation of the Lord Himself. God humbled Himself and entered into creation, assuming our fallen and corrupted flesh in order to raise it up again, to restore incorruption from corruption and life from death.
Please read more from the link above to learn more about Jesus Christ whom you think you know so much about but actually know very little about. Overcome your fear.
YumYum
11-04-2009, 12:59 AM
Exactly. Do you honestly think the OP has actually read that link he keeps posting?
No, he would have paraphrased it for us.
On the Incarnation by St. Athanasius (http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/theology/incarnation_st_athanasius.pdf)
Dr.3D
11-04-2009, 01:07 AM
On the Incarnation by St. Athanasius (http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/theology/incarnation_st_athanasius.pdf)
Polly want a cracker?
Mitt Romneys sideburns
11-04-2009, 01:08 AM
Are you so challenged by 91 pages that you refuse to read them? What are you afraid of?
No use can come of it. Reading it will give me nothing of your position. There are hundreds of denominations of Christianity out there. Thats because no two Christians can even manage read through the Bible without coming to entirely different conclusions.
Why dont you tell me what you think this reading section means?
Your question regarding crosses and fish and other religious symbols are exactly that- symbols. Their is no idolatry.
Explain how Christian use of symbols is different that idolatry. Why are the Jehovah's Witnesses wrong about this point?
Mitt Romneys sideburns
11-04-2009, 01:10 AM
On the Incarnation by St. Athanasius (http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/theology/incarnation_st_athanasius.pdf)
Dude, posting it more isnt going to make us read it.
Are you so much of an intellectual lightweight that you are incapable of forming your own arguments, ideas, and opinions?
YumYum
11-04-2009, 01:10 AM
Are you so challenged by 91 pages that you refuse to read them? What are you afraid of?
Your question regarding crosses and fish and other religious symbols are exactly that- symbols. Their is no idolatry. Even Moses, after receiving the Ten Commandments, used religious symbols. The Ark of the Covenant had cherubim on the mantle, the snake on the staff (a pre-figuration of the Crucified Lord) which the Israelites gazed at in order to receive healing from the poisonous bites of the serpents. These are all symbols and sources of healing through God's grace in creation. But all of this pointed and find its fulfillment in the Incarnation of the Lord Himself. God humbled Himself and entered into creation, assuming our fallen and corrupted flesh in order to raise it up again, to restore incorruption from corruption and life from death.
Please read more from the link above to learn more about Jesus Christ whom you think you know so much about but actually know very little about. Overcome your fear.
If I want to know Jesus, he didn't say "Read a 91 page book on RPF!" No, he said "Come to me!" Books cause confusion. Thomas wanted to see evidence and he is in heaven ruling with Christ. Why was he rewarded when he had doubt? I too want evidence. Can you resurrect the dead? Jesus said after he raised Lazerus from the dead: "Don't marvel at this, for there will come those after me that will do greater things than this." If you truly have Christ you will do works greater than Jesus and resurrect the dead.
Dr.3D
11-04-2009, 01:37 AM
~Snip
If you truly have Christ you will do works greater than Jesus and resurrect the dead.
I don't believe that is what was implied when He said that. There is still some time ahead of us that there will be those who will do such things. It doesn't mean everybody who believes Jesus is the Christ is able to do such things. Each of us has his own gifts.
My only problem with this post is the fact that it is a commandment to love. It's not that I don't think love is a great thing. Probably the greatest thing we as humans have, but in my experience I cannot be commanded to love.
moostraks
11-04-2009, 05:42 AM
My only problem with this post is the fact that it is a commandment to love. It's not that I don't think love is a great thing. Probably the greatest thing we as humans have, but in my experience I cannot be commanded to love.
Actually it is one of those complex but very simple matters. It is to put anothers interests and well being before one's selfish desires. Therein lies the crux of the problem. It is the process of gaining control over one's own self interest.
moostraks
11-04-2009, 06:09 AM
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images.
Yet the Christians insist upon stacking up giant crosses everywhere they go. . .
And plastering fish symbols on the back of their car. . .
If I was a believer in Jesus, I would likely be swayed towards Jehovah's Witness. They dont use any religious symbols whatsoever because they believe it to be a form of idolatry.
It has been my experience that devout amish take it to a stronger extent than the Jehovah's Witnesses do, as they take issue with any print material-photos and paintings, as well as computer and motion pictures. Some conservative mennonites are also almost as strict as the Amish.
All Christians do not view this issue the same way. Maybe it has to do with fear factor of how one believes the Creator might interpret said action. Or maybe fear that one is somehow deflecting the proper respect due to the Creator inadvertantly to the "golden calf".
The issue with the golden calf was a matter of worshipping a man made object and believing one's strength comes from said object rather than giving respect where respect is due. Using objects as a means of deeping one's connection to the eternal is not sinful,imo. As an example, people who use crystals for meditative purposes. The energy is not within the object itself so much as it is a mental tool for invoking a certain aspect within oneself or connecting to said external strengths that exist in the spiritual realm.
Actually it is one of those complex but very simple matters. It is to put anothers interests and well being before one's selfish desires. Therein lies the crux of the problem. It is the process of gaining control over one's own self interest.
But I look at from the side of, I didn't choose to fall in love with my wife. I didn't choose to love my family. I can't think of a point in time where love was a choice. A command implies choice. To obey or not to obey. Either you love someone or you don't. You cannot command someone to love you, it goes against the very nature of love.
moostraks
11-04-2009, 06:30 AM
But I look at from the side of, I didn't choose to fall in love with my wife. I didn't choose to love my family. I can't think of a point in time where love was a choice. A command implies choice. To obey or not to obey. Either you love someone or you don't. You cannot command someone to love you, it goes against the very nature of love.
I think maybe you might be viewing it too emotionally and not realizing that it embraces a thought process as well. The actions at first might be done as a sense of duty, but a funny thing occurs as one attempts to see outside themselves and view life through the eyes of another person.
For example, when you make an honest attempt to love your enemies you walk in their moccasins and rationalize from their point of view. You can then come to terms with their shortcomings as if they were your own. They are no longer a target to be defeated but just like a loved one they become an extension of oneself.
As for choosing your wife, I would argue you did even if it was subconscientiously. Something about her sets her apart from every other person so much so that you pledged to commit your lives together. You made a choice when it comes to family to not let the mistakes they make turn into a grudge so that you harden your heart and resent them. Loving people always is a choice even if you can't initially put your finger on why. Take a moment to really dwell on the issue and I am sure you would come up with some factors as to why you continue your loving relationships.
Taking the command to love as a duty requires one to look for the humanity in others no matter how contemptible one might find them. It is not an easy task at all. However, if you believe that a higher power is the ultimate embodiment of love and you seek to draw upon that strength, you can choose love for others. It becomes easier the more you conscientiously attempt it.Like any muscle being exercised, the spiritual realm seems to follow the same laws.
I think maybe you might be viewing it too emotionally...
It's just hard to envision it that way. What comes to mind is an imposing body standing over me saying "I command you to love me". Just gives me the impression of; that's not how it works.
tonesforjonesbones
11-04-2009, 08:11 AM
I believe that is why God gave us free will....He is more interested that we voluntarily come to Him. He created us because He was lonely..we are His family, at least that is what He wants us to be. Tones
moostraks
11-04-2009, 09:01 AM
It's just hard to envision it that way. What comes to mind is an imposing body standing over me saying "I command you to love me". Just gives me the impression of; that's not how it works.
:D Had to lol but only because I can relate to your sentiment. I had to come to terms with this issue myself.
Think of your (insert god concept here :)) as a parent-child relationship. I give you a free will choice and then say in order to have a relationship with me you must love me. You choose to have the relationship,and I choose to be involved based on 2 issues. (The two greatest commandments...)
If you love me you will trust me. You will seek to converse with me. Me, (divine power with experience) as the parent, will try to enable you to follow the best path possible for you. If you listen to me, trust me, and follow my directions then life can become infinitely easier than if you strike out on your own path or love another as your parent who might not have your best interests in mind.
For some the current physical existence may be more difficult than others you might argue. Well that is where faith that there is another realm of the spiritual where the reward will be found. If you have made the leap that there is a divine higher power, then a spiritual reward is not that hard to comprehend. Therefore, sacrificing in the short term is not that hard to overcome.
I think we are often brought to conceive of a higher power as dictatorial rather than seeing it as absolute love. We see through man's eyes (as a child) rather than through the eyes of a parent. So if you believe that there is a higher power that created your existence, however it may have manifested itself, you would then see some similarity in that of a parent-child relationship.(reciprocating love and respect)
If your child was constantly selfish and doing things to undermine your relationship, you would distance yourself from them for both parties best interest. This really is, in my opinion, all that issue boils down to and yet framing it as a command seems to overshadow for many of us, that free will exists.
If you ever had a child this concept becomes so much easier to grasp. Especially if you have ever had a defiant one such as I have been blessed with. I consider it karmic retribution for what must have been a very poor action on my part.:D
ClayTrainor
11-04-2009, 09:06 AM
I believe that is why God gave us free will....
To be truly free, freedom can't be granted by another. ;)
If free will begins and ends with some kind of individual being, than we don't truly have free will, we have a universal tyrant. What would be the purpose of him creating free-will? To test his own creation? Are we some kind of experiment?
I would argue that we are truly free, and there is no one in control. That's the real beauty of it all. Mistakes are made with freedom, which is how the truth becomes apparent. There is no real lie or mistake, only variations of the truth. We either learn and continue to seek and experience eloquent truths for eternity, or we succumb to fear and ignorance, while we destroy ourselves which will force us to restart. We are in control, we are truly free and there is no master :)
moostraks
11-04-2009, 09:11 AM
I believe that is why God gave us free will....He is more interested that we voluntarily come to Him. He created us because He was lonely..we are His family, at least that is what He wants us to be. Tones
I do believe He feels a loss when we turn away from Him. That said, I doubt lonely is an accurate description. It is more like a hole in the heart for the potential one throws away.:(
GBurr
11-04-2009, 10:26 AM
Last time I checked most Christians don't worship the cross. They worship the man who died on it.
ClayTrainor
11-04-2009, 10:34 AM
Last time I checked most Christians don't worship the cross. They worship the man who died on it.
But they always represent the cross, you must admit. There's a cross on every church, many wear cross jewelery, and even have a crucifix on on their wall, etc. What is the purpose of this?
I understand that the story of Jesus is important because of his "sacrifice" but, to me it was just blatant and cold blooded Murder. Jesus was tortured and then murdered on a cross. No man deserves this, and no man should be remember for this horrible outcome. If a friend or family member of yours is murdered by a knife, it's actually disrespectful to represent that knife, as if it means something about their life. IMO. You wouldn't want to hang a knife on the wall, and you certainly wouldn't want art representing a knife in her dead body. Why do Christians often have a picture dead man on a Cross? Why is this so important to a great many of them, that they represent it in nearly every aspect of their culture? The cross represents a violent murder...
If Jesus did exist, he should only be remembered for the life he lived, not how it ended. Every time i see the cross, I'm forced to think of a violent murder, and it really makes me wonder about the whole "appeal" to Jesus.
But they always represent the cross, you must admit. There's a cross on every church, many wear cross jewelery, and even have a crucifix on on their wall, etc. What is the purpose of this?
I understand that the story of Jesus is important because of his "sacrifice" but, to me it was just blatant and cold blooded Murder. Jesus was tortured and then murdered on a cross. No man deserves this, and no man should be remember for this horrible outcome. If a friend or family member of yours is murdered by a knife, it's actually disrespectful to represent that knife, as if it means something about their life. IMO. You wouldn't want to hang a knife on the wall, and you certainly wouldn't want art representing a knife in her dead body. Why do Christians often have a picture dead man on a Cross? Why is this so important to a great many of them, that they represent it in nearly every aspect of their culture? The cross represents a violent murder...
If Jesus did exist, he should only be remembered for the life he lived, not how it ended. Every time i see the cross, I'm forced to think of a violent murder, and it really makes me wonder about the whole "appeal" to Jesus.
Taken from On the Incarnation by St. Athanasius (http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/theology/incarnation_st_athanasius.pdf):
"Some might urge that, even granting the necessity of a public death for subsequent belief in the resurrection, it would surely have been better for Him to have arranged an honorable death for Himself, and so to have avoided the ignominy of the cross. But even this would have given ground for suspicion that His power over death was limited to the particular kind of death which He chose for Himself; and that again would furnish excuse for disbelieving the resurrection. Death came to His body, therefore, not from Himself but from enemy action, in order that the Savior might utterly abolish death in whatever form they offered it to Him. A generous wrestler, virile and strong, does not himself choose his antagonists, lest it should be thought that of some of them he is afraid. Rather, he lets the spectators choose them, and that all the more if these are hostile, so that he may overthrow whomsoever they match against him and thus vindicate his superior strength. Even so was it with Christ. He, the Life of all, our Lord and Savior, did not arrange the manner of his own death lest He should seem to be afraid of some other kind. No. He accepted and bore upon the cross a death inflicted by others, and those others His special enemies, a death which to them was supremely terrible and by no means to be faced; and He did this in order that, by destroying even this death, He might Himself be believed to be the Life, and the power of death be recognized as finally annulled. A marvelous and mighty paradox has thus occurred, for the death which they thought to inflict on Him as dishonor and disgrace has become the glorious monument to death's defeat. Therefore it is also, that He neither endured the death of John, who was beheaded, nor was He sawn asunder, like Isaiah: even in death He preserved His body whole and undivided, so that there should be no excuse hereafter for those who would divide the Church.
So much for the objections of those outside the Church. But if any honest Christian wants to know why He suffered death on the cross and not in some other way, we answer thus: in no other way was it expedient for us, indeed the Lord offered for our sakes the one death that was supremely good. He had come to bear the curse that lay on us; and how could He "become a curse" otherwise than by accepting the accursed death? And that death is the cross, for it is written "Cursed is every one that hangeth on tree." Again, the death of the Lord is the ransom of all, and by it "the middle wall of partition" is broken down and the call of the Gentiles comes about. How could He have called us if He had not been crucified, for it is only on the cross that a man dies with arms outstretched? Here, again, we see the fitness of His death and of those outstretched arms: it was that He might draw His ancient people with the one and the Gentiles with the other, and join both together in Himself. Even so, He foretold the manner of His redeeming death, "I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto Myself." Again, the air is the sphere of the devil, the enemy of our race who, having fallen from heaven, endeavors with the other evil spirits who shared in his disobedience both to keep souls from the truth and to hinder the progress of those who are trying to follow it. The apostle refers to this when he says, "According to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience." But the Lord came to overthrow the devil and to purify the air and to make "a way" for us up to heaven, as the apostle says, "through the veil, that is to say, His flesh." This had to be done through death, and by what other kind of death could it be done, save by a death in the air, that is, on the cross? Here, again, you see how right and natural it was that the Lord should suffer thus; for being thus "lifted up," He cleansed the air from all the evil influences of the enemy. "I beheld Satan as lightning falling," He says; and thus He re-opened the road to heaven, saying again, "Lift up your gates, O ye princes, and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors." For it was not the Word Himself Who needed an opening of the gates, He being Lord of all, nor was any of His works closed to their Maker. No, it was we who needed it, we whom He Himself upbore in His own body—that body which He first offered to death on behalf of all, and then made through it a path to heaven."
No use can come of it. Reading it will give me nothing of your position. There are hundreds of denominations of Christianity out there. Thats because no two Christians can even manage read through the Bible without coming to entirely different conclusions.
Why dont you tell me what you think this reading section means?
Your question regarding crosses and fish and other religious symbols are exactly that- symbols. Their is no idolatry.
Explain how Christian use of symbols is different that idolatry. Why are the Jehovah's Witnesses wrong about this point?
I have already answered you that symbols are not worshipped. Only God is worshipped. If you choose to educate yourself (better than I can teach you), I refer you to the work by St. John of Damascus called On Holy Images (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/damascus/icons.i.i.html).
(I presume you will not read it, perhaps you are afraid to or just too lazy, so I reference this to those who are willing to put the effort in sowing and planting in order to enjoy the spiritual harvest such work will produce)
ClayTrainor
11-04-2009, 11:28 AM
I have already answered you that symbols are not worshipped. Only God is worshipped.
What is the purpose of the cross, and why is it so commonly put on display by those of the Christian faith? In your own words :)
What is the purpose of the cross, and why is it so commonly put on display by those of the Christian faith? In your own words :)
Unfortunately, my words are weak and insufficient. I still refer you to the works I listed above, but I will try to address this as succinctly as I can.
The cross is a symbol of Christ's power over death. We do not worship the cross, but Christ Who hung upon it. The cross is an image of Christ's sacrifice and saving work. We do not worship the image (as we do not worship a painting of Christ). The wood or the paint or the line drawn by the hands of men is not what makes a Christian symbol worthy of honor, but the image it is referencing to (which in the case of the cross is Christ's love and sacrifice for all mankind).
Let's say you have an old picture of someone you love, let's say someone who died many years ago and you hold on to this grainy old picture of them. Sometimes you gaze into the picture in order to help you remember them. Sometimes a tear may come to your eye. Other times, you may kiss the beloved's face on the picture and hold it against your cheek. You take care of the picture, and place it somewhere safe. Does this mean you worship the picture? Of course not! It is the face in the picture that you love which brings such veneration and reverence for the picture. Likewise with certain Christian symbols, such as the cross or on icons: these are windows into the mystery of Christ in His Incarnation, Who sanctified and redeemed creation by His Death and Resurrection. Before the Incarnation, no one ever saw the face of God. How could He be visually portrayed, He Who is Infinite? However, with the Incarnation, God has entered into creation and we have seen His face. He has made Himself known.
Please read the two foundational Christian works I listed above for further information. They explain this in much greater detail.
If anyone is interested, we can start a reading group and go over both of these writings chapter by chapter and share thoughts/comments/etc.
On the Incarnation by St. Athanasius (http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/theology/incarnation_st_athanasius.pdf)
On Holy Images by St. John of Damascus (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/damascus/icons.i.i.html).
Is anyone interested? If so, PM me.
ClayTrainor
11-04-2009, 11:55 AM
Unfortunately, my words are weak and insufficient. I still refer you to the works I listed above, but I will try to address this as succinctly as I can.
Ahh, but i only trust you, as we can reason together and I cannot reason with the words from dead men. :)
The cross is a symbol of Christ's power over death. We do not worship the cross, but Christ Who hung upon it.
I'm not saying you worship the cross, but it is a very strong representation of the church. It is the most represented symbol there is.
Christ doesn't always hang upon it, in fact, he normally doesn't. It's normally just a cross.
The cross is an image of Christ's sacrifice and saving work. We do not worship the image (as we do not worship a paining of Christ). The wood or the paint or the line drawn by the hands of men is not what makes a Christian symbol worthy of honor, but the image it is referencing to (which in the case of the cross is Christ's love and sacrifice for all mankind).
Why would the Cross represent his love and sacrifice? Why wouldn't the good that he produced for the world be represented in a more positive artistic fashion?
I remember when Tupac got shot and killed, my sister had pictures of him all over the place, and still to this day has a poster of him on her wall. She felt a close bond with this man, and when he died, she wanted to remember him as we was when he was alive. What Tupac did that was important to her, was not represented in his death or by the tool of his death. His death was a tragedy, his life was a "blessing", and the same goes for Jesus.
When i saw the The Passion of the Christ, my heart wept for anyone who had to go through such pain. I cannot for the life of me understand why a tool of death (the cross) would be considered a good symbol. That's the part of Jesus' life we should learn a lesson from, in the same way we learned a lesson from Hitler. It's a reflection of the madness of humanity.
If you have an old picture of someone you love, let's say someone who died many years ago and you hold on to this grainy old picture of them. Sometime when you see the picture, a tear may come to your eye. Other times, you may kiss the beloved's face on the picture. You take care of the picture, and place it somewhere safe. Does this mean you worship the picture? Of course not! It is the face that you love which brings such veneration and reverence for the picture.
Right, but the Cross isn't a face, it is a tool of death and torture :(
Likewise with certain Christian symbols, such as the cross or on icons: these are windows into the mystery of Christ in His Incarnation, Who sanctified and redeemed creation by His Death and Resurrection.
But the cross is where i place my focus, because the church puts a lot of emphasis on this.
The tool of the murder, not some sort of symbol representing the re-birth of life. Every church i see, has a cross. Why this symbol? Why the tool of his torture and death? Do you agree that this is a good symbol to represent?
Ahh, but i only trust you, as we can reason together and I cannot reason with the words from dead men. :)
My words and my reasoning is weak compared to these men who lived lives of virtue and were living temples of the Holy Spirit. Trust me, you will get a lot more out of reading these writings than anything I will write.
Why would the Cross represent his love and sacrifice? Why wouldn't the good that he produced for the world be represented in a more positive artistic fashion?
The tool of the murder, not some sort of symbol representing the re-birth of life. Every church i see, has a cross. Why this symbol? Why the tool of his torture and death? Do you agree that this is a good symbol to represent?
Because it was Christ dying for us which has restored our relationship with God. Christ destroyed death by His death on the cross. He become 'a curse' so that we might be healed of the curse of Adam's fall. By His obedience unto death, even to death on the cross (!), He erases the disobedience of Adam and grants us a way towards righteousness with our Creator.
This healing is pre-figured in the serpent placed on the staff by Moses in the desert. During that time, the Israelites were being wounded and killed by the bites of snakes. Moses then was commanded by God to place a serpent on a staff and anyone who would look upon it would find healing and a cure. Here, what was accursed became a source of healing and salvation. This is an obvious pre-figuring of the Messiah becoming a 'curse' for us, the Sinless one tasting torture and death, so that He would destroy death and become a means of healing and way towards righteousness with God.
http://www.orthocuban.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/moses_brass-serpent.jpg
Here is another pre-figuring of the victory of Christ's death on a cross found in the Old Testament:
As the Amalekites came and attacked the Israelites, Moses bade Jehoshua (the name of Jesus in Hebrew) to lead the men to battle while Moses stood atop Mount Horeb holding the wooden rod of God. And as long as Moses had his hands raised, Jehoshua and his men would be winning the battle. After he began to grow exhausted from holding his arms outstretched and raised, Aaron and Hur held up Moses arms to assist him.
What a wonderful preview of the saving Grace of Jehoshua (which is Jesus's name). Here, we see that in the sign of the cross (with Moses holding the wooden rod and his arms outstretched), Jehoshua's power overcomes the evil forces which attack us.
http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/MEPOD/10049502~The-Israelites-are-Enabled-to-Defeat-the-Amalekites-Because-Moses-Arms-are-Held-up-by-Aaron-and-Hur-Posters.jpg
polomertz
11-04-2009, 12:52 PM
George Carlin said it best.
YouTube - George Carlin: The Ten Commandments (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkRYaMiP4K8)
George Carlin said it best.
so you believe
Ninja Homer
11-04-2009, 01:18 PM
What is the purpose of the cross, and why is it so commonly put on display by those of the Christian faith? In your own words :)
The cross was a pagan symbol. The reason the Christian faith started using it was to help convert pagans to Christianity. The same goes for a lot of other symbols. The Jesus fish was originally pagan. Nobody knows when Jesus was born, but Christmas is celebrated on winter solstice to take the place of a pagan celebration. Santa Clause goes back to paganism, along with the Christmas tree, yule log, reindeer, mistletoe, etc. Even Easter was a pagan celebration for the spring equinox. "Easter" is taken from the name of a pagan goddess, so if you celebrate Easter, you're actually taking part in a pagan ritual.
The cross was a pagan symbol. The reason the Christian faith started using it was to help convert pagans to Christianity. The same goes for a lot of other symbols. The Jesus fish was originally pagan. Nobody knows when Jesus was born, but Christmas is celebrated on winter solstice to take the place of a pagan celebration. Santa Clause goes back to paganism, along with the Christmas tree, yule log, reindeer, mistletoe, etc. Even Easter was a pagan celebration for the spring equinox. "Easter" is taken from the name of a pagan goddess, so if you celebrate Easter, you're actually taking part in a pagan ritual.
Jesus Christ if the fulfillment of all the things you mentioned above. Mankind's yearning for truth and to experience the divine throughout the ancient world has revealed glimpses and pre-figuring of the Truth that is Jesus Christ, not only from Israel (though He would be born in the line of Israel), but in every nation and culture and beleif system that ever existed. What the Egyptians knew in part, becomes fully revealed in Christ. What the Buddhists pre-figured, finds its firmament in the Incarnate God. The fact that ancient religions pre-figured the Savior of all mankind does not in any way lessen the Savior, but rather gives glory to the Father Who wishes all men be saved.
Dr.3D
11-04-2009, 01:45 PM
The cross was a pagan symbol. The reason the Christian faith started using it was to help convert pagans to Christianity. The same goes for a lot of other symbols. The Jesus fish was originally pagan. Nobody knows when Jesus was born, but Christmas is celebrated on winter solstice to take the place of a pagan celebration. Santa Clause goes back to paganism, along with the Christmas tree, yule log, reindeer, mistletoe, etc. Even Easter was a pagan celebration for the spring equinox. "Easter" is taken from the name of a pagan goddess, so if you celebrate Easter, you're actually taking part in a pagan ritual.
I concur. In my studies, I have found all of what you just said to be the truth. Others would do well to study the origins of these things.
I say this, not because I am not a Christian, but because I wish others who profess to be Christian would understand what has happened and why all of these things have perverted some of what should be the Christian Church.
There is but a remnant left who understand these things.
Dr.3D
11-04-2009, 02:33 PM
For the curious, here is a web site where you may learn more.
http://www.babylonforsaken.com/
Mitt Romneys sideburns
11-04-2009, 03:02 PM
My words and my reasoning is weak compared to these men who lived lives of virtue and were living temples of the Holy Spirit. Trust me, you will get a lot more out of reading these writings than anything I will write.
Why do you keep doing this? Why do Christians find it so virtuous to think of themselves as weak and insufficient and deserving of punishment?
You sound like an abused woman. "He hits me when I dont clean the dishes the way he wants them. Its not a bad thing. He is doing it because he loves me and I need to learn."
Why dont you stand up for yourself and be proud of who you are and what you are capable of?
pacelli
11-04-2009, 03:19 PM
Wow, this thread went down the toilet fast.
moostraks
11-04-2009, 03:27 PM
I concur. In my studies, I have found all of what you just said to be the truth. Others would do well to study the origins of these things.
I say this, not because I am not a Christian, but because I wish others who profess to be Christian would understand what has happened and why all of these things have perverted some of what should be the Christian Church.
There is but a remnant left who understand these things.
Actually it all depends on how you look at the issue. Some sects consider it a travesty to be purged and some consider all the different spiritual groups to have a commonality because they draw from the same well of knowledge.
Sun-God becomes Son-God. Philosophical concepts which mature. FWIW, all pagans don't worship trees and make sacrifices to idols.
"Oh how they cling and wrangle, some who claim
For preacher and monk the honored name!
For, quarreling, each to his view they cling.
Such folk see only one side of a thing. "
Thank you for your concern, MRS, though I do wonder if it is heartfelt.
I am a sinner because I do not do the things I ought to do. I put my own interests before my fellow man's and my own ego above all else. I break the Lord's'commandments and make an idol of my own pride. Thank you for feeling sorry for me. I indeed am to be pitied. If not for the mercy of the Lord, I would have no hope.
St. Paul puts it well in this verse:
2 Corinthians 12*
(New King James Version)
"It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities. For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me.
And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong. "
Dr.3D
11-06-2009, 12:16 AM
Thank you for your concern, MRS, though I do wonder if it is heartfelt.
I am a sinner because I do not do the things I ought to do. I put my own interests before my fellow man's and my own ego above all else. I break the Lord's'commandments and make an idol of my own pride. Thank you for feeling sorry for me. I indeed am to be pitied. If not for the mercy of the Lord, I would have no hope.
St. Paul puts it well in this verse:
2 Corinthians 12*
(New King James Version)
"It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities. For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me.
And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong. "
When you read that and then read the following, it seems apparent Paul had a problem with his eyes.
Galatians 4:13-15 Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first. 14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. 15 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.
When you read that and then read the following, it seems apparent Paul had a problem with his eyes.
Thats a thought. Cataracts or glaucoma? Interesting. I was actually thinking about that earlier today and thought maybe it was kidney stones, since I can tell you, they feel exactly like a thorn in the side.
Dr.3D
11-06-2009, 06:25 PM
Thats a thought. Cataracts or glaucoma? Interesting. I was actually thinking about that earlier today and thought maybe it was kidney stones, since I can tell you, they feel exactly like a thorn in the side.
Well, we have to remember what happened to Saul.
Acts 9:8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
As we read here, he was blinded on the road to Damascus.
Then later his eyes were healed to the extent that he was able to see again.
Acts 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
It does not say his eyes were completely healed so I would suspect Paul was left with a reminder of his meeting with Jesus on the road to Damascus. A reminder he would never be allowed to forget.
It does not say his eyes were completely healed so I would suspect Paul was left with a reminder of his meeting with Jesus on the road to Damascus. A reminder he would never be allowed to forget.
Thank you for this!
tremendoustie
11-06-2009, 07:23 PM
But I look at from the side of, I didn't choose to fall in love with my wife. I didn't choose to love my family. I can't think of a point in time where love was a choice. A command implies choice. To obey or not to obey. Either you love someone or you don't. You cannot command someone to love you, it goes against the very nature of love.
Love is not primarily a feeling, it is an action, I believe. When Christ says "love your neighbor as yourself" it means show love to them, even if you don't have goey feelings.
tremendoustie
11-06-2009, 07:29 PM
What is the purpose of the cross, and why is it so commonly put on display by those of the Christian faith? In your own words :)
I think it's a symbol of Christ's sacrifice -- he chose to go there. I'm not one to plaster crosses all over everything, but I think that's the point. So, it'd be more like if your family member dove in front of a spear that was intended for you. I think it might make a little more sense to use a spear as a reminder of that, to honor them, in that context. Does that make sense?
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