Social Programs: Ron Paul's position on government-subsized welfare benefits [Archive]

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Cynanthrope

10-29-2009, 12:47 AM

On-Medicaid

11-11-2009, 05:45 AM

Hello Cynanthrope, I'm new myself. I will add to Qs for Ron Paul.

Ron Paul is against the social welfare net? Where is the link to his homepage. google...

Ah, I didn't remember his policies being so extreme.

http://www.house.gov/apps/list/speech/tx14_paul/MoreGov.shtml
#
# 1.) No one has a right to medical care. --

That sounds rather emphatic. It sounds like a philosophy called 'Live and Let Die.'

# 1.) No one has a right to medical care. If one assumes such a right, it endorses the notion that some individuals have a right to someone else’s life and property. This totally contradicts the principles of liberty. --

How does it endorse the right to someone else's life?

What property? Do you mean taxes? Does Ron Paul live without being taxed? No, he pays taxes on most items purchased. Unless he's an amazing All-Internet shopper.

He pays taxes on gum, clothes, transportation... Cry me a river.

# This totally contradicts the principles of liberty. --

< rolls eyes >

# 2.) If medical care is provided by government, this can only be achieved by an authoritarian government unconcerned about the rights of the individual. --

You mean the government would be like some alien outside entity apart from us? Did saucer-people give Dr. Paul an anal-probe and he's still resentful?

Dr. Paul's words look like they are designed to chime with a paranoid crowd. The kind who posted a thread here entitled "Pelosi rope tree." Dr. Paul's words also sound authoritarian, inasmuch as policy statements are asserted in such absolute terms. As if the world was all black and white in its issues and considerations.

# 8.) Bureaucrats and other third parties must never be allowed to interfere in the doctor/patient relationship. --

What about reimbursement rates to doctors?

Which is it: you don't want HMOs to tell doctors (who are employees) what they'll pay for, or no one has a right to medical care? Your answer must be black or white. Doctors must not be declared a special class of people, either.

--

I have, alack and alas, ended up poor. I am receiving NYS benefits, including the state-federal Medicaid program. My pharmacist says my meds run over $1000/month, and there'd be the cost of the doctors themselves.

I don't have any money for the meds and doctors, I'd be dead within a few months. (not from an ongoing fatal disease, this is heart failure and such)

What does Ron Paul expect me to do without this program, curl up in a big ball and die? Is that the just result if I would cost someone else money in their taxes?

And that's where the absolutism comes in: it's not that a penny might be taken from citizens by a law for a penny tax. It's that it's "taken by force" or some such description. The last time I ran into people talking like that was in Usenet, Ayn Rand was in the air, and I was arguing with nutjobs who thought all roads in the USA should be privately owned, no problems would occur in a free market.

cough cough

Coming to this forum was by chance: I had a Google Alert fire off if my name was spotted somewhere, but it was a misfire. But like I was "Oh, Ron Paul!" It has been a while. When was it...

Oh yeah, something like Bush Sr. was president. The NSA was spying on us, and they were absolutely forbidden to do so. A program called Platform or Echelon.

Ron Paul was making a stink. I, in NYC, contributed $25 to Ron Paul of TX. That's pretty good when a local can pull in money from other states' citizens.

And where have years of efforts gotten us?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/29/us/29manual.html

“Those who say the F.B.I. should not collect information on a person or group unless there is a specific reason to suspect that the target is up to no good seriously miss the mark,” Ms. Caproni said. “The F.B.I. has been told that we need to determine who poses a threat to the national security — not simply to investigate persons who have come onto our radar screen.” --

It was all for naught.

--

I look forward to the Senate passing the new health bill after much histrionics.

Your protests are for naught.

You voted us into power.

Bman

11-11-2009, 06:33 AM

#
# 1.) No one has a right to medical care. --

That sounds rather emphatic. It sounds like a philosophy called 'Live and Let Die.'

So you'd prefer to force people into slavery? I'm not so sure you have a moral high ground here, but good luck with that.

# 1.) No one has a right to medical care. If one assumes such a right, it endorses the notion that some individuals have a right to someone else’s life and property. This totally contradicts the principles of liberty. --

How does it endorse the right to someone else's life?

How does it not? I may need food. I still don't walk into a grocery store and just take it. How do you think that mediacal care exists? Purely through miracles?

What property? Do you mean taxes? Does Ron Paul live without being taxed? No, he pays taxes on most items purchased. Unless he's an amazing All-Internet shopper.

He pays taxes on gum, clothes, transportation... Cry me a river.

# This totally contradicts the principles of liberty. --

< rolls eyes >

What are you even talking about? I'm a bit confused how we got here and what you are talking about. Are you saying that taxes enforced with the threat of imprisonment isn't thug theft? Explain how that is a principle of liberty. I find it quite confusing or I am failing to understand you.

# 2.) If medical care is provided by government, this can only be achieved by an authoritarian government unconcerned about the rights of the individual. --

You mean the government would be like some alien outside entity apart from us? Did saucer-people give Dr. Paul an anal-probe and he's still resentful?

Dr. Paul's words look like they are designed to chime with a paranoid crowd. The kind who posted a thread here entitled "Pelosi rope tree." Dr. Paul's words also sound authoritarian, inasmuch as policy statements are asserted in such absolute terms. As if the world was all black and white in its issues and considerations.

So someone else is better at making decisions for you than you? Well that's a personal problem. No thank you.

# 8.) Bureaucrats and other third parties must never be allowed to interfere in the doctor/patient relationship. --

What about reimbursement rates to doctors?

Which is it: you don't want HMOs to tell doctors (who are employees) what they'll pay for, or no one has a right to medical care? Your answer must be black or white. Doctors must not be declared a special class of people, either.

You're the one who seems to be wanting to make them into a special class of people. Dr. Paul is just trying to protect them from the tyranny of the state. I don't see HMO's with the ability to jail doctors for not doing as they are told.

I have, alack and alas, ended up poor. I am receiving NYS benefits, including the state-federal Medicaid program. My pharmacist says my meds run over $1000/month, and there'd be the cost of the doctors themselves.

I don't have any money for the meds and doctors, I'd be dead within a few months. (not from an ongoing fatal disease, this is heart failure and such)

What does Ron Paul expect me to do without this program, curl up in a big ball and die? Is that the just result if I would cost someone else money in their taxes?

And that's where the absolutism comes in: it's not that a penny might be taken from citizens by a law for a penny tax. It's that it's "taken by force" or some such description. The last time I ran into people talking like that was in Usenet, Ayn Rand was in the air, and I was arguing with nutjobs who thought all roads in the USA should be privately owned, no problems would occur in a free market.

Exact condition and medications please. With that information it would probably be very easy to tell you why and how you are getting robbed.

Problems would occur in a free market. They would just fail rather than be sustained until they brought us all to ruin. Kind of like how having to pay for governments current nonsense is leading to the devaluation of our currency.

cough cough

Please have the courtesy to cover your mouth. I don't want to catch any commie germs.

I look forward to the Senate passing the new health bill after much histrionics.

Your protests are for naught.

You voted us into power.

You're silly. We will vote you out.

Bman

11-11-2009, 06:44 AM

I know that Ron Paul opposes the welfare state and many govt.-subsidized programs including SS, Medicaid, Medicare, etc.

But, is he opposed to/supportive of the govt. providing welfare benefits (welfare checks, food stamps, WIC, etc.) to the truly destitute poor persons who reside in some of the country's worst slums such as Detroit, Oakland and the Bronx?

If he is opposed to such services, does he believe that there should be any govt.-subsidized safety nets for the truly destitute and unfortunate slum-dwelling persons?

See actually I find this comment interesting. Let me explain when I was in Germany which is a bit more socialist than we are I saw a news report on how this one city was losing most of it's population to migration. The reason was that the German government realized the area was worthless and told the people they would no longer recieve government assistance if they remained in that area. In otherwords it was too much of a strain on the rest of society.

These people stay in these slums becasue they are paid to stay. If no one paid them to be there, you better believe they would leave tomorrow, they'd have to if they wanted to survive. I don't give all of my money to charities. I will tell you this much. If I wasn't taxed as much as I am I would give more and I guarentee you that more money would be available to those who truly needed the help even if I gave 1/10th of what I am taxed.

On-Medicaid

11-11-2009, 07:26 AM

Sorry, Bman, but your post isn't taken seriously by me because it's throwing around enough fright words like slavery, theft, imprisonment... I find this more code-word talk among the choir than having an honest discussion. I make a citizen's arrest of your post for being a drama queen.

I don't see HMO's with the ability to jail doctors for not doing as they are told.

More uninformative histrionics. WTFAYTA

# 8.) Bureaucrats and other third parties must never be allowed to interfere in the doctor/patient relationship. --

What about reimbursement rates to doctors?

Which is it: you don't want HMOs to tell doctors (who are employees) what they'll pay for, or no one has a right to medical care? Your answer must be black or white. Doctors must not be declared a special class of people, either.

You're the one who seems to be wanting to make them into a special class of people. Dr. Paul is just trying to protect them from the tyranny of the state.

I quoted Dr. Paul and asked two specific questions.

Perhaps he will come along and answer them.

Your response was inherently contradictory and had to muse on what was behind my questions. The "state" was not a part of my question.

Bman

11-11-2009, 07:31 PM

Sorry, Bman, but your post isn't taken seriously by me because it's throwing around enough fright words like slavery, theft, imprisonment... I find this more code-word talk among the choir than having an honest discussion. I make a citizen's arrest of your post for being a drama queen.

It is an honest discussion. What do you call taxes? What do you call laws that will land you in jail for disobeying? What do you call having government dictate your price of labor?

Drama queen? Hardly. Don't blame me if you cannot deal with reality and objective reasoning.

More uninformative histrionics. WTFAYTA

Right back at you. LTOV is a complete failure. Put down the Karl Marx book, no good has ever come from his ideas.

I quoted Dr. Paul and asked two specific questions.

Perhaps he will come along and answer them.

Your response was inherently contradictory and had to muse on what was behind my questions. The "state" was not a part of my question.

Please tell me where the contradiction was. This should be fun. The state is involved in your question. HMO's don't tell doctors what they can and cannot do. They simply say what they will and will not pay for. My car insurance doesn't pay for gas or oil changes, I doubt yours does. Think about it.

klamath

11-11-2009, 07:49 PM

On-Medicaid

11-12-2009, 05:50 AM

I see no reason to be amongst the paranoid "patriots" here.

*** forum plonk ***

Danke

01-12-2010, 01:23 AM

bump

Zippyjuan

01-12-2010, 01:30 AM

Are you bored that you are bumping all this person's threads?

Danke

01-12-2010, 01:47 AM

Are you bored that you are bumping all this person's threads?

I'd explain it to you Zippy, but I'm afraid it would go over your head.

Working Poor

01-12-2010, 07:10 AM

I wish my computer was not so messed up I can hardly type spyware I think.

This OP is asking questions that I think deserve some thoughtful answers. So many people think we want to kick them off public service right now. What they are not getting is that if people were not so taxed they could afford to hire more people. Many people who are on public assistance haven't been able to find work.

The good thing is that many people who have are on public assistance are going to college or are in training programs and will become part of the work force. In the mean time people who have business can't afford to expand their businesses because of taxes going up. The health care bill could well wipe out small businesses. That is all businesses that employ under 100 people. Wow talk about kicking mom and pop in the teeth!

America was built by the small business owner. Large corporations have taken all the major industries in this country. Legislation is created everyday that is against the little guy something to squeeze him out and make him have to pay more than he can make. The little guy with his own business is fast becoming the guy on public assistance because of inflation or some people call it tax.

If the tea partiers were smart they would focus on taxes this is what the tea party is supposed to be about. The media certainly makes the tea party to be a joke something to turn it's nose up to poo poo it.

The people are waking up they are making a lot of noise this is a good thing. The world might end and it might not. These are some very exciting times to be alive.

Ron Paul is for lower taxes and less law he wants us to be free. He wants to end all war including the war on drugs. He wants law enforcement to focus more on the banking industry who got us into this economic mess because it is truly criminal what has been done with our money. Clinton spent our social security money to balance the budget and gave our jobs away to asia. GW and Cheney took what was left over to get us in the war in middle east.