I am an inarticulate libertarian! help please...

[Glelas]

The people around me say stupid things - coworkers, family, friends etc...I try to start a civil discussion about something they just said. I get tongue tied and can't spit out my argument convincingly and with conviction. For some reason my articulation stinks. It always has. I lose arguments or don't even bother because I can't formulate my attack.

I read libertarian literature voraciously, lurk here and mises as well as other websites, not to mention magazines and newspapers. Its all up in my head, it all makes sense, I can see everything clearly, why can't I pass it on in a sensible simple manner? I am not looking to memorize, I get the concepts, I can't spit it out.

I have a Bachelor's in psychology, an MBA, and I am a fiber optic engineer. (Maybe this is the problem :rolleyes:) Should I be practicing in front of a mirror? Talking to a wall? How does one overcome or improve this? I want to be able to spew libertarian doctrine to any and all that will listen!!!!

[Dunedain]

That's what this board is for. Stick around and learn the facts. You don't need to argue just state facts.

[Captain Bryan]

I'm with ya man.

[kaleidoscope eyes]

Ha, it's funny you just posted this... I was thinking the exact same things mere minutes ago... sigh
I wish I could communicate all the stuff going on in my head... but it just gets stuck somewhere between the brain and the mouth.:o

[Bruno]

Might this book help?

http://www.theadvocates.org/new-subscriber-special.html

[Dunedain]

Also, debating on a communist or neocon websites would allow you to learn how to deal with the nonsense arguments in slow motion. You'll be like Neo on the matrix dodging bullets in real life.

Evil matrix dude says, "We have to take the fight to the ENEMY before they take the fight to us!".

[Feenix566]

Practice makes perfect.

Try out the socratic method. Ask lots of questions and try to get them to examine their beliefs. The contradictions become self-apparent.

[t0rnado]

Don't become a robot that just spew generic arguments. Just keep arguing and don't back down even though you can't completely articulate your thoughts. Eloquence just requires time.

[Dunedain]

Practice makes perfect.

Try out the socratic method. Ask lots of questions and try to get them to examine their beliefs. The contradictions become self-apparent.


To expand on this...see my quote above. "We have to fight the ENEMY." Ask the person "Well, who is the enemy? How are they identified?"

They say "the terrorists!!" You say, I thought we were fighting "insurgents"?

They say, "No, the insurgents too! Kill them!!"

You say, "What is the difference between a terrorist and an insurgent? How do I tell the difference? How do I know you aren't an insurgent? What is terrorism? By your definition of terrorism, the U.S. government is a terrorist org. Are you a terrorist because you're in the U.S. military?"

Eventually, they get so confused by their own propaganda they start disbelieving themselves and people that overhear begin to disbelieve them also and start asking questions about their own understanding of these agitprop terms.

[Original_Intent]

I'd say practice having discussions with people who you mostly agree with. Maybe have them force you to back up what you are saying. I have a good friend who I am largely in agreement with and having discussions with him helped me vastly in being able to communicate with those who did not agree with me.

[teacherone]

use the socratic method.
review syllogistic fallacies.
before arguing pick your destination.
ask questions exposing your opponent's logical fallacies until you arrive at your goal.
avoid emotion.
force the opponent to stay on topic.

[Andrew-Austin]

Whenever you are thinking to yourself about the moral or utilitarian superiority of libertarianism on some particular issue, and you think you understand it clearly, practice explaining it to yourself without an audience.

Or you can try other strategies besides going on the defensive:

Put them on the defensive. You don't neccessarily have to convince them you are right, so long as you can convince show them they don't have a clue. - YouTube - True News 57: Stop Defending Freedom! - Freedomain Radio (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF58InCvAAA&feature=player_profilepage)

use the 'against me' approach - YouTube - New Hampshire Liberty Forum - Keynote Speaker: Stefan Molyneux from Freedomain Radio (Part 1) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKOTqRb5nvg)

[Imperial]

Internet forums are your friend. Or study logical fallacies. Both work.

Also, remember you can be wrong. It is not a sign of defeat to make a concession- it actually sometimes propels you to victory.

[Andrew-Austin]

Internet forums are your friend. Or study logical fallacies. Both work.

Also, remember you can be wrong. It is not a sign of defeat to make a concession- it actually sometimes propels you to victory.

You can also be conditionally wrong on minor (perhaps irrelevant) details they bring up, and still be right over all on the issue. When or if that happens just quickly move past it.

[Matt Collins]

Start here:
http://www.theadvocates.org/ruwart/categories_list.php









Then get this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Liberty-Z-Libertarian-Soundbites-Right/dp/0975432605/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256592409&sr=8-1

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51F09MV4BHL._SS500_.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/Liberty-Z-Libertarian-Soundbites-Right/dp/0975432605/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256592409&sr=8-1)




Then this book:
http://www.theadvocates.org/secrets.html
http://www.theadvocates.org/images/secrets-3d.jpg (http://www.theadvocates.org/secrets.html)

[Matt Collins]

I have a Bachelor's in psychology, an MBA, and I am a fiber optic engineer. (Maybe this is the problem :rolleyes:)HA HA HA! As a fellow engineer, I completely understand your pain ;)

[Andrew-Austin]

Thanks for the book links Matt. If you have read all or most of them, which would you recommend the most? Which one or two?

[Feenix566]

Everyone is a libertarian at heart, at least when it comes to their civil rights. It's only a problem when people think about other people's civil rights. Try putting them in the victim's place.

Ask them how they would feel if China built a permanent military base in San Diego.

[Superportal]

teacherone said it perfectly....

1. Use logic (essential): http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/
2. Ask questions.
3. Keep your argument simple. Limit yourself to making a specific point (rather than going off on tangents).
4. Have research and data to back up your point!
5. Anticipate in advance possible objections.
6. Have a pleasant attitude, be friendly, don't rant and get emotional or come off as a know-it-all.

[Bruno]

teacherone said it perfectly....

1. Use logic (essential): http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/
2. Ask questions.
3. Keep your argument simple. Limit yourself to making a specific point (rather than going off on tangents).
4. Have research and data to back up your point!
5. Anticipate in advance possible objections.
6. Have a pleasant attitude, be friendly, don't rant and get emotional or come off as a know-it-all.

Thank you for that great link, and welcome to the RP forums! :)

[emazur]

I'm sure you're not the only one - I consider myself a pretty good writer on libertarianism but not a great speaker (though I could do a speech that I prepared pretty well I think). Part of the reason for this is b/c when I was younger I had no interest in politics and didn't watch the news but voted Libertarian in 2000, then I left the US for most of this decade and didn't really try to understand libertarianism better until the economic collapse, focusing mostly on the Fed and the monetary system, which is somewhat complex to even learn about, let alone speak about, especially in a short period of time. That collapse was only about a year ago.

The liberals and "conservatives" have an advantage over libertarians in terms of communication - they dominate the airwaves, therefore their followers are exposed to their talking points day in and day out, and spread them like viruses through word of mouth at the water cooler or whatever, to the point where they become cliche. They don't need to understand the principals behind the topics b/c they can just parrot what all the talking heads say. If the airwaves were filled with libertarianism and there were more people out there who seemed receptive, it would be easier for you to echo the talking points, but since you say you read and follow libertarian concepts and topics closely, the difference is that you would actually understand what you're talking about.

I haven't mastered the art of libertarian persuasion through speaking, but I think I can be of help here. First of all, the site Bruno linked to is all about mastering that art - the Advocates for Self Government puts out a newsletter and I often hear them touting this book: Secrets of Libertarian Persuasion by Michael Cloud
http://www.theadvocates.org/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LS&Product_Code=SLP&Category_Code=BOO
edit: Matt Collins beat me to it
As for practicing, you might what to attack that topic by topic. For instance, say to yourself "this week or this month, I'm going to focus communicating to others about the Fed". Think about what you think needs to be said - creating a written outline of the talking points might be a good idea. Then record yourself through the mic-input or webcam on your computer, keeping in mind the goal of persuasion. Your outline will be your guide, and at first your speech will not go smoothly - focus on the parts of your speech that don't so that you can improve, and after a while when you think you can speak smoothly w/o looking at the outline, give that a try - again recording yourself and focusing on what goes wrong (you might try covering your outline with a piece of paper, and when you hit a snag, take a look at the outline and circle the part where you messed up). After mastering the topic of the Fed, move onto healthcare, gun rights, war, etc. in order of what you think is most important.

You might try participating in your local Libertarian Party, and you might also want to study the examples of what you think are effective speeches or podcasts on the topic of your interest. For instance, I recently discovered what I think is a biweekly podcast that seems libertarian friendly - the first mp3 I downloaded was about why we are in Afghanistan and why we should get out. My impression was that he was well prepared for this podcast and came armed with examples and history, and not just talking out of his ass like most radio hosts do. Here it is:
Show 158 - Geopolitical Pneumonia (click the title for mp3)
http://www.dancarlin.com/disp.php/csarchive#Show-158---Geopolitical-Pneumonia
But if Dan Carlin doesn't do it for ya, there are plenty of other fish in the water that you can study. Many people on this board seem fond of freedomainradio.com

[romacox]

What helps me:
write it down in my computer revising it over a few days, and then send it to friends that I trust will respectfully disagree with me.

Over a period of time I eventually come up with very simple things I can say to get my point across. It is better to get one or two points across at a time. If one covers too much at one time, no one remembers what was said.

I also find that asking them about their thoughts is always the first step in any communication. No one wants to listen to (or understand) someone who does not listen to or understand them. I also find listening to them helps me to focus on what it is that they do not see about my perspective so I am not talking about things that are pointless.

[Matt Collins]

Thanks for the book links Matt. If you have read all or most of them, which would you recommend the most? Which one or two?
Both of them. But if you must start, then start with Harry Browne's A-Z Soundbites. It's quick, easy, and designed to use as a reference.

[LibertyMage]

Writing will force you to articulate your beliefs. Writing is a great place to start.

[Bruno]

Op = mia

[aravoth]

The people around me say stupid things - coworkers, family, friends etc...I try to start a civil discussion about something they just said. I get tongue tied and can't spit out my argument convincingly and with conviction. For some reason my articulation stinks. It always has. I lose arguments or don't even bother because I can't formulate my attack.

I read libertarian literature voraciously, lurk here and mises as well as other websites, not to mention magazines and newspapers. Its all up in my head, it all makes sense, I can see everything clearly, why can't I pass it on in a sensible simple manner? I am not looking to memorize, I get the concepts, I can't spit it out.

I have a Bachelor's in psychology, an MBA, and I am a fiber optic engineer. (Maybe this is the problem :rolleyes:) Should I be practicing in front of a mirror? Talking to a wall? How does one overcome or improve this? I want to be able to spew libertarian doctrine to any and all that will listen!!!!

Play out scenarios in your head.

Come up with witty retorts.

Scream at stupid imaginary people from the comfort of your car with the windows rolled up.

Carry on an arguement alone, like you are nuttier than squirrel shit screaming at phantoms.

Stand in front of a mirror and get on your soap-box, pay attention to the muscle motions of your face, articulation is 50% word-smithing, and 50% body langauge.

Don't bring your education into it. Common Sense can not be taught, only revealed.

[getch36]

If it makes you feel any better, I'm the same way.It can be very frustrating......

[DirtMcGirt]

I know a few members of my meetup were also participating in toastmasters.
I know nothing about this organization but other members constantly praised them.

http://www.toastmasters.org/

[Bruno]

I know a few members of my meetup were also participating in toastmasters.
I know nothing about this organization but other members constantly praised them.

http://www.toastmasters.org/

Good tip!

Toastmasters helped me overcome my fear of public speaking, which allowed me to become a corporate trainer. I recommend checking it out.

[BuddyRey]

The people around me say stupid things - coworkers, family, friends etc...I try to start a civil discussion about something they just said. I get tongue tied and can't spit out my argument convincingly and with conviction. For some reason my articulation stinks. It always has. I lose arguments or don't even bother because I can't formulate my attack.

I read libertarian literature voraciously, lurk here and mises as well as other websites, not to mention magazines and newspapers. Its all up in my head, it all makes sense, I can see everything clearly, why can't I pass it on in a sensible simple manner? I am not looking to memorize, I get the concepts, I can't spit it out.

I have a Bachelor's in psychology, an MBA, and I am a fiber optic engineer. (Maybe this is the problem :rolleyes:) Should I be practicing in front of a mirror? Talking to a wall? How does one overcome or improve this? I want to be able to spew libertarian doctrine to any and all that will listen!!!!

I think what would help you the most is to read (and listen to) the excellent materials of professional libertarian persuaders like Michael Cloud. He has a book and an audio course choc-full of simple techniques that are very effective.

[bkreigh]

To expand on this...see my quote above. "We have to fight the ENEMY." Ask the person "Well, who is the enemy? How are they identified?"

They say "the terrorists!!" You say, I thought we were fighting "insurgents"?

They say, "No, the insurgents too! Kill them!!"

You say, "What is the difference between a terrorist and an insurgent? How do I tell the difference? How do I know you aren't an insurgent? What is terrorism? By your definition of terrorism, the U.S. government is a terrorist org. Are you a terrorist because you're in the U.S. military?"

Eventually, they get so confused by their own propaganda they start disbelieving themselves and people that overhear begin to disbelieve them also and start asking questions about their own understanding of these agitprop terms.

Dont ask to many questions. That is exactly what my liberal brother does. He loves to ask the questions but never answers mine. Make sure they have time to ask questions or if they are just talking out of their head just counter them with some of your comments without asking a question. Once you are done they will be on the attack and start playing 20 questions with you. After a couple of them tell them to shut the fuck up because you are not on trial. Then go for the throat. :D They hate to be on the spot because they know they will just contradict themselves.

[Glelas]

Thanks for the replies and links...

I will incorporate a little of everything into my offense but one thing I must do is find a libertarian organization where I live.

[WClint]

The people around me say stupid things - coworkers, family, friends etc...I try to start a civil discussion about something they just said. I get tongue tied and can't spit out my argument convincingly and with conviction. For some reason my articulation stinks. It always has. I lose arguments or don't even bother because I can't formulate my attack.

I read libertarian literature voraciously, lurk here and mises as well as other websites, not to mention magazines and newspapers. Its all up in my head, it all makes sense, I can see everything clearly, why can't I pass it on in a sensible simple manner? I am not looking to memorize, I get the concepts, I can't spit it out.

I have a Bachelor's in psychology, an MBA, and I am a fiber optic engineer. (Maybe this is the problem :rolleyes:) Should I be practicing in front of a mirror? Talking to a wall? How does one overcome or improve this? I want to be able to spew libertarian doctrine to any and all that will listen!!!!

Well one way might be to go onto youtube and start arguing in the comments section eventually you will figure it out what works and what doesnt. You could follow the old "Tyler Durden" from fight club and just start picking fights with random people on the street eventually you will get it.

[FindLiberty]

join Toastmasters - talk about anything ELSE other than politics to them... 'shplain wave length optical multiplexers and fiber splitter losses to 'em.

practice... don't try to teach a pig to sing. be a good listener. get smooth.

above all, relax and enjoy the ride.

(now only if I'd take my own advice... 'fraid I'm in the same boat, but LP burnout has set in for me after 20 years of pissing into the fan...

+++

Tyrants or the state acting outside the Constitution is a bad thing - liberty is a good thing; America (and the rest of the world) is finding this out, the hard way!

[Matt Collins]

join Toastmasters http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=54860692475

[RCA]

This book appears to be the magnum opus for voice and articulation training:

http://www.amazon.com/Voice-Articulation-Kenneth-C-Crannell/dp/0534523544/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276890396&sr=8-1

[dean.engelhardt]

Toastmasters?

[Elwar]

Toastmasters?

http://www.toastmasters.org/

You go to a room somewhere in your community with a few other people and you give a speech. People listening critique you and you get better over time.

[TheBlackPeterSchiff]

Practice man, I post on hiphop forum that is pretty much filled with progressives, commies, socialists, black nationalists, etc. So I have to constantly debate and defend my opinion. I win some over actually. But still, I am better at articulating my ideas on the computer rather than in person, which is sad. What helps me in person is, I have an indian friend, who I discuss this stuff with constantly, and he challenges me from time to time, so it helps me.

Also, some people arent even worth debating...like my parents, the think Obama is heaven sent...literally.

[RCA]

I think the OP was also asking for help relating to the tongue-tied portion of his delivery, not just the talking points themselves.

[torchbearer]

I always like to start any debate with the question- who owns your body?
the answer to that question, answers all others.

[TheBlackPeterSchiff]

I think the OP was also asking for help relating to the tongue-tied portion of his delivery, not just the talking points themselves.

Yeah, that just comes to do personality I guess. Me personally, Im not all that great a public speaker, I get nervous when more than 2 people's attention is on me.

[dean.engelhardt]

536 elected fedral officals sell their vote to the highest bidder. Do we really want them making the decisions controlling your morals, ecomony, and environment?

People that say yes are either purchasing the votes or are stupid.

[heavenlyboy34]

Practice man, I post on hiphop forum that is pretty much filled with progressives, commies, socialists, black nationalists, etc. So I have to constantly debate and defend my opinion. I win some over actually. But still, I am better at articulating my ideas on the computer rather than in person, which is sad. What helps me in person is, I have an indian friend, who I discuss this stuff with constantly, and he challenges me from time to time, so it helps me.

Also, some people arent even worth debating...like my parents, the think Obama is heaven sent...literally.

This is good advice. I like to debate people who disagree with me best, because I can find holes in my arguments more easily. :cool:

[Teaser Rate]

If you want to win a debate, you need to shape the conditions of victory and defeat more than your adversary.

If a debate revolves around the question of “should people be allowed to do hard drugs ?”, you’re always going to lose; however if the question is “is government action the right mechanism to limit hard drug use ?” you’ll have a much better chance of winning.

[ClayTrainor]

Whenever you are thinking to yourself about the moral or utilitarian superiority of libertarianism on some particular issue, and you think you understand it clearly, practice explaining it to yourself without an audience.

Or you can try other strategies besides going on the defensive:

Put them on the defensive. You don't neccessarily have to convince them you are right, so long as you can convince show them they don't have a clue. - YouTube - True News 57: Stop Defending Freedom! - Freedomain Radio (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF58InCvAAA&feature=player_profilepage)

use the 'against me' approach - YouTube - New Hampshire Liberty Forum - Keynote Speaker: Stefan Molyneux from Freedomain Radio (Part 1) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKOTqRb5nvg)

This!!! I would also like to stress the importance of the Socratic Method (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method).

Having the ability to ask the right questions, is far more important than claiming to have the right answers.

[libertybrewcity]

What helps me:
write it down in my computer revising it over a few days, and then send it to friends that I trust will respectfully disagree with me.

Over a period of time I eventually come up with very simple things I can say to get my point across. It is better to get one or two points across at a time. If one covers too much at one time, no one remembers what was said.

I also find that asking them about their thoughts is always the first step in any communication. No one wants to listen to (or understand) someone who does not listen to or understand them. I also find listening to them helps me to focus on what it is that they do not see about my perspective so I am not talking about things that are pointless.

yes, write things down. also, number three is good too.sometimes if you ask them questions you find that they believe the same thing you do. it is also easily to get them tied up by asking questions.

[libertybrewcity]

also, someone mentioned that it is not worth debating some people. even if you say hey "the cia organized a coup in this country and there are documents and witnesses to prove it" they will still not believe you. sometimes it is best to just not argue lol. it may save you from losing some friends too.

[evilfunnystuff]

Liberty A-Z : 872 Libertarian Soundbites You Can Use Right Now! [Paperback]
Harry Browne (Author)
No customer reviews yet. Be the first.

Available from these sellers.

1 new from $160.80 4 used from $50.00

and there is no torrent in addition to being out of print and not available via http://www.harrybrowne.org/

I would chip in a few bux for someone who has this book to transcibe it into an ebook or scan it into pdf documents, but
I cant justify 50 bux for a book.