Individual Spirituality - My logic on morality, what we are and how we came to be.

[ClayTrainor]

I just made this post in another thread, but i kind of wanted to open up my thoughts to some criticism.


Here's my view on "creation" or "existence" and how we came to be what we are, from the perspective i've gained on my quest to understand my individual spirituality. :)

Every single part that makes us who we are, is as old as the universe... Atoms / quantum fluctuations are the true building blocks of life and existence in the 3 dimensions as we know it.

Atoms contain and pass on memory and information. We are simply an assembled form of atomic and quantum memories. For example, Genetics are the atomic and quantum memories to operate our biological machinery, with or without the help of our conscious mind.

As far as we know, we are the superior form of life within Earth but, that doesn't make us supernatural and special. Think of the earth as a supernatural form of life, since most life is made up of other forms of life interacting with each other, within.. We are part of the earth's biological machinery, for whatever purpose we serve. We are the genetic memory of the earth. We are the current evolved inhabitants of a pale blue rock, hurling it's way through outer space.

We are a major part of everything in existence, and we weren't created from scratch. we always were, always have been and always will be. We are complex forms of atomic and quantum memories that have learned and assembled together. Life and human life is the creation of atoms constantly passing on memories and learning from one another. We could learn morality from our nature and how we are assembled, as i think it illustrates the importance of us to respect and share with each other to progress. We don't need a belief in a supernatural being in order to have moral respect for one another. The only way we will progress and not self-destruct is if we learn morality from the respect we expect from one another, not from a supernatural being who can't be proven or disproven.

This brings me to my favorite quote from an assembly of Energy and atoms named Jesus. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." That my friends, is all the bible should've said if it were truly concerned about morality. That quote is what morality is, on the fundamental level.

Every single aspect that makes us who we are, is part of the universe, and is as old as it. We are an assembly of matter and energy(really, just energy) within 11 dimensional hyperspace... I do not think it's logically consistent to think there is a supernatural creator responsible for everything, and it's even more inconsistent to think morality depends on him, at least under my logic. Please attempt to poke some holes in it...

I'm guessing some Christians have Moral arguments for me? :)

[Ian A.]

Here's my view on "creation" or "existence" and how we came to be what we are, from the perspective i've gained on my quest to understand my individual spirituality. :)

Every single part that makes us who we are, is as old as the universe... Atoms / quantum fluctuations are the true building blocks of life and existence in the 3 dimensions as we know it.

So how did these atoms create themselves? At the big bang, they didn't exist. Something caused them. What was it?


We don't need a belief in a supernatural being in order to have moral respect for one another.

I certainly don't make that claim. You don't need to believe in God in order to lead a moral life, but consider this formula:

If God does not exist, universal morality does not exist.

Objective morality does exist.

Therefore, God exists.

To show #1 to be true, consider the argument from Atheist philosopher Michael Ruse:

Morality is a biological adaptation no less than are hands and feet and teeth.
Considered as a rationally justifiable set of claims about an objective something,
ethics is illusory. I appreciate when someone says, ‘Love thy neighbor as thyself,’
they think they are referring above and beyond themselves. Nevertheless, such
reference is truly without foundation. Morality is just an aid to survival and
reproduction, . . . and any deeper meaning is illusory.

(Michael Ruse, “Evolutionary Theory and Christian Ethics,” in The Darwinian Paradigm (London: Routledge, 1989), pp. 262-269).


The only way we will progress and not self-destruct is if we learn morality from the respect we expect from one another, not from a supernatural being who can't be proven or disproven.

Morality itself cannot be proven or disproven by your standards, so how can you put God under that same standard?


"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." That my friends, is all the bible should've said if it were truly concerned about morality. That quote is what morality is on the fundamental level.

There's nothing fundamental about it if there is no god! Without something that transcends everything, there is no foundation for morality.

Every single aspect that makes us who we are, is part of the universe, and is as old as it. We are an assembly of matter and energy(really, just energy) within 11 dimensional hyperspace... I do not think it's logically consistent to think there is a supernatural creator responsible for everything, at least under my logic. Please attempt to poke some holes in it...

I'm guessing some Christians have Moral arguments for me? :)

[ClayTrainor]

So how did these atoms create themselves? At the big bang, they didn't exist. Something caused them. What was it?

Atoms are quantum fluctuations. The big bang was a quantum fluctuation. (maybe somethign even deeper than quantum, i don't know)

Nothing can't exist. Something existed before the big bang. This argument of "nothing" is not logical. Nothing by it's very nature cannot objectively exist.

Everywhere you look, there will always be something, always has been, always will be. This something never stops changing, EVER! There is no start, there is no end... we are it.




If God does not exist, universal morality does not exist.


It is very obvious that universal morality does not exist, if you are a realist. Therefore God doesn't exist?

I'm not sure that's an argument against god, but it's certainly not one for him.



Objective morality does exist.

Your morality is subjective to your species. You do not give a shit about the bacteria you murder in your sink, but that is life with it's own moral code to reproduce. :)



Therefore, God exists.

I BELIEVE! :p




Morality itself cannot be proven or disproven by your standards, so how can you put God under that same standard?


Morality can only be proven in your own desires. If you choose to be a murderer and not respect the rights of others, you will be killed or boxed up, by someone who rejects that morality. How do you choose to prove morality?



There's nothing fundamental about it if there is no god! Without something that transcends everything, there is no foundation for morality.


Define God...

I do believe we are all one, or we are all essentially connected as one. I do not believe in the controller, or the "tyrant", if you will, as you do.

I believe the real beauty is that no one is in control, and that we are truly free. Mistakes are clearly made with freedom, but we are learning. Nature can guide us. It is trying to communicate with us. Do not listen so closely to the words of other men, they aren't always honest ;)

YouTube - Mushrooms and Spirituality (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LT-M5Iu5FpY)

YouTube - DMT: The Spirit Molecule trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aOaHEYhaEI)

[ClayTrainor]

Ian, My basic question to you is this, what is God, and how do you define him? Also, Why does the word "God" tend to be used for things we simply don't fully understand, yet?

To me God is nature, and we are a part of it, just like everything else. In my opinion the reason why "God" is so controversial, is because some things we gave credit to "God" for in both ancient, recent and ongoing history can now be explained by the natural process of things, as we observe and analyze it with better tools.

There is a source of everything, i agree, but i challenge you at the source of our confusion... what is it you mean by God? What is told to you in the Bible?

[TortoiseDream]

I just made this post in another thread, but i kind of wanted to open up my thoughts to some criticism.


Here's my view on "creation" or "existence" and how we came to be what we are, from the perspective i've gained on my quest to understand my individual spirituality. :)

Every single part that makes us who we are, is as old as the universe... Atoms / quantum fluctuations are the true building blocks of life and existence in the 3 dimensions as we know it.

Atoms contain and pass on memory and information. We are simply an assembled form of atomic and quantum memories. For example, Genetics are the atomic and quantum memories to operate our biological machinery, with or without the help of our conscious mind.

As far as we know, we are the superior form of life within Earth but, that doesn't make us supernatural and special. Think of the earth as a supernatural form of life, since most life is made up of other forms of life interacting with each other, within.. We are part of the earth's biological machinery, for whatever purpose we serve. We are the genetic memory of the earth. We are the current evolved inhabitants of a pale blue rock, hurling it's way through outer space.

We are a major part of everything in existence, and we weren't created from scratch. we always were, always have been and always will be. We are complex forms of atomic and quantum memories that have learned and assembled together. Life and human life is the creation of atoms constantly passing on memories and learning from one another. We could learn morality from our nature and how we are assembled, as i think it illustrates the importance of us to respect and share with each other to progress. We don't need a belief in a supernatural being in order to have moral respect for one another. The only way we will progress and not self-destruct is if we learn morality from the respect we expect from one another, not from a supernatural being who can't be proven or disproven.

This brings me to my favorite quote from an assembly of Energy and atoms named Jesus. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." That my friends, is all the bible should've said if it were truly concerned about morality. That quote is what morality is, on the fundamental level.

Every single aspect that makes us who we are, is part of the universe, and is as old as it. We are an assembly of matter and energy(really, just energy) within 11 dimensional hyperspace... I do not think it's logically consistent to think there is a supernatural creator responsible for everything, and it's even more inconsistent to think morality depends on him, at least under my logic. Please attempt to poke some holes in it...

I'm guessing some Christians have Moral arguments for me? :)

A few thoughts.

First of all, there really is no such thing as energy in the way a physicists defines it. No such thing! Energy is simply a mathematical concept with which we have been successful at describing the natural world, but the idea of energy cannot physically leave the paper. It's an abstraction to help us understand the world, and it's a great description for physicists. However in a talk of spirituality I don't think we can use the energy that physicists use.

That being said I do believe that all existence is a continuum of something like energy, for lack of a better term. However looking at this energy in isolation is missing the point. The one thing is all, and all things are one. There is one Being. For practicality we can call it God, call it Tao, call it whatever. The difference between what I call God or Tao is that it is completely natural, not supernatural. Similar to what Thoreau said, I don't need fairies to understand the beauty of the garden.

I then believe that to learn the proper ways to behave, we should look towards the ways of nature and learn from it. By studying science (among other things) we have learned quite a lot. The big bang theory is a scientific analog to the idea that all things are one. The big bang says that all things were in the same place at the beginning. That place has expanded, and so all things are still in the same place. It is the universe. Second, quantum fluctuations I think tell us a great deal about the ebb and flow of the universe. In quantum, you can have completely "blank" space and find particles creating themselves out of nothing from borrowed energy. They exist for a very, very brief amount of time, and then return the energy back. Their existence is akin to a blip. All things exist in this way, I believe. Our existence is based on borrowed energy from our surroundings. We eat, we breathe, we consume. When we die we decompose and return. Not only do we return what we have borrowed, but we return ourselves. Indeed they are the same, the borrower and the borrowed. Stars go through a similar process. By way of gravity they collect hydrogen gas, only to expel it outward in a giant burst upon its death. The ebb and flow of life is best represented by the sine wave. It is the perfect analogy for borrowing and returning. When one chooses to look at one cycle, he finds a "fluctuation" from zero. However after a complete cycle, the wave has returned anew to its starting point. Hence the start and the end are the same, and the sum of the wave (like a definite integral) is null. The sine wave is derived from the circle, an idea with no beginning and no end.

Anyways I kinda ranted, I probably went off topic, but just some thoughts. :D

[ClayTrainor]

A few thoughts.

First of all, there really is no such thing as energy in the way a physicists defines it. No such thing! Energy is simply a mathematical concept with which we have been successful at describing the natural world, but the idea of energy cannot physically leave the paper. It's an abstraction to help us understand the world, and it's a great description for physicists. However in a talk of spirituality I don't think we can use the energy that physicists use.

That being said I do believe that all existence is a continuum of something like energy, for lack of a better term. However looking at this energy in isolation is missing the point. The one thing is all, and all things are one. There is one Being. For practicality we can call it God, call it Tao, call it whatever. The difference between what I call God or Tao is that it is completely natural, not supernatural. Similar to what Thoreau said, I don't need fairies to understand the beauty of the garden.

I then believe that to learn the proper ways to behave, we should look towards the ways of nature and learn from it. By studying science (among other things) we have learned quite a lot. The big bang theory is a scientific analog to the idea that all things are one. The big bang says that all things were in the same place at the beginning. That place has expanded, and so all things are still in the same place. It is the universe. Second, quantum fluctuations I think tell us a great deal about the ebb and flow of the universe. In quantum, you can have completely "blank" space and find particles creating themselves out of nothing from borrowed energy. They exist for a very, very brief amount of time, and then return the energy back. Their existence is akin to a blip. All things exist in this way, I believe. Our existence is based on borrowed energy from our surroundings. We eat, we breathe, we consume. When we die we decompose and return. Not only do we return what we have borrowed, but we return ourselves. Indeed they are the same, the borrower and the borrowed. Stars go through a similar process. By way of gravity they collect hydrogen gas, only to expel it outward in a giant burst upon its death. The ebb and flow of life is best represented by the sine wave. It is the perfect analogy for borrowing and returning. When one chooses to look at one cycle, he finds a "fluctuation" from zero. However after a complete cycle, the wave has returned anew to its starting point. Hence the start and the end are the same, and the sum of the wave (like a definite integral) is null. The sine wave is derived from the circle, an idea with no beginning and no end.

Anyways I kinda ranted, I probably went off topic, but just some thoughts. :D


Very interesting perspective. Not really a challenge to my logic, but more of an extension or elaboration on what i'm trying to explain :)

I really enjoy your mathematical perspective on things and think me and you have pretty much come to the same conclusion on reality for the most part. To me it's a testament to the correlation between meditation and psychedelics. It's all about viewing ourselves, our being, our ego's, from alternate perspectives, to understand the true nature of them. :)

[TortoiseDream]

To me it's a testament to the correlation between meditation and psychedelics. It's all about viewing ourselves, our being, our ego's, from alternate perspectives, to understand the true nature of them. :)

I can only speak from my non-psychedelic viewpoint. But in my experience I've come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as ego. When you breathe, the air flows through you, and you flow through yourself; you are the air.

Nice quote in your signature, by the way. We are all eternal, and I don't think we need to eat a special kind of bread to be so. Being and eternity cannot be separated; if you are now, then you are forever.

[ClayTrainor]

I can only speak from my non-psychedelic viewpoint. But in my experience I've come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as ego. When you breathe, the air flows through you, and you flow through yourself; you are the air.

Well, the ego is subjective to this state of mind, so it does exist in that sense. I mean... my ego is essentially Clay Trainor, but yes, i am just a fluctuation of energy or whatever the source is, although you can't really say clay trainor doesn't exist, if we are to have a logical conversation about this state of mind.

[TortoiseDream]

Well, the ego is subjective to this state of mind. I mean... my ego is essentially Clay Trainor, but yes, i am just a fluctuation of energy or whatever the source is...

I think removing that ego is to realize your connection to the whole, though. It is realizing that you are one. You are the air you breathe, you are the water you drink. I am you and you are me. The ego is just a distraction from this.

[dannno]

Well I for one am glad that there is something rather than just nothing :)

[ClayTrainor]

I think removing that ego is to realize your connection to the whole, though. It is realizing that you are one. You are the air you breathe, you are the water you drink. I am you and you are me. The ego is just a distraction from this.

I agree... but even to explain that the ego does not exist, you must understand "the ego" as a concept. It really depends what you mean by existence.

Your views are correct, but the ego is not an easy thing to rid someone of. They must look inwards on it, to realize we are one and the ego is an extension of this "one". I still have my ego, and you still have yours. Our forum names, are ego's, they are representations of our being.

[ClayTrainor]

Well I for one am glad that there is something rather than just nothing :)

Amen to that. I'm even more glad that i'm just as much a part of it as everything else :)

[TortoiseDream]

I agree... but even to explain that the ego does not exist, you must understand "the ego" as a concept. It really depends what you mean by existence.

Your views are correct, but the ego is not an easy thing to rid someone of. They must look inwards on it, to realize we are one and the ego is an extension of this "one". I still have my ego, and you still have yours. Our forum names, are ego's, they are representations of our being.

Okay. I think a good analogy is water, then. Water has no form. It is the perfect example of the formless, which characterizes (ironically, bear with me) the universe. However water therefore takes all forms. When you place water in a container, it takes the form of that container exactly. So in other words, my existence is just the universe placing itself in a container for a short period of time, taking a form. However we must remember that I have this form because I have no form.

[ClayTrainor]

Okay. I think a good analogy is water, then. Water has no form. It is the perfect example of the formless, which characterizes (ironically, bear with me) the universe. However water therefore takes all forms. When you place water in a container, it takes the form of that container exactly. So in other words, my existence is just the universe placing itself in a container for a short period of time, taking a form. However we must remember that I have this form because I have no form.

I will not challenge that concept.

What we're arguing over is essentially semantics. We are in full agreement, i think. Most people aren't ready to accept that the ego doesn't exist, so other arguments must be constructed to lead them to the source, away from the confusion. ;)

[TortoiseDream]

I will not challenge that concept.

What we're arguing over is essentially semantics. We are in full agreement, i think. Most people aren't ready to accept that the ego doesn't exist, so other arguments must be constructed to lead them to the source, away from the confusion. ;)

lol ok. :D

[ClayTrainor]

Any more Deists want to take a stab at it? I'm here to learn from you :)

[Original_Intent]

Well, it sounds like a good made-up story with a "liberal" dash of new-age spirituality, Clay.

Saying the universe just popped into existence at the Big Bang and that is the result of some high level quantum physics - it stirked me that someone would have to be pretty desperate to not want ot believe in God to swallow such a story.

You say the atoms of each of us are the same age as everything else in the universe. To have an age at all it had to have a beginning. Then you turn around and say it was impossible that there ever was "nothing"...so which is it - all the same age or all ageless?

Why fight so hard against the truth. Is it so hard to acknowledge that Someone Out There might actually be the boss of you? ;)

[ClayTrainor]

Well, it sounds like a good made-up story with a "liberal" dash of new-age spirituality, Clay.

Story? It's more along the lines of reasoning out loud...

Obviously to call it a story, you are mocking it to an extent? At least my "story" isn't a 2000 year old book, i suppose :)


Saying the universe just popped into existence at the Big Bang and that is the result of some high level quantum physics - it stirked me that someone would have to be pretty desperate to not want ot believe in God to swallow such a story.

That's complete nonsense in bold, and you must've missed the point or something. I'm saying the big bang isn't the beginning, there was something before it, I just don't claim to know exactly what it is. Human research isn't capable of understanding it yet, but we're working on it. Just saying "God" is not an answer, it merely illustrates that you don't know and won't admit it. There are likely multiple universes and multiple dimensions that we don't see. The big bang, if it happened, was just another random happening in the grand scheme of things, and we are a product of it.

"Anything you don't understand, you attribute to God. God for you is where you sweep away all the mysteries of the world, all the challenges to our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off and say God did it. " - Carl Sagan



You say the atoms of each of us are the same age as everything else in the universe. To have an age at all it had to have a beginning.
I'm saying everything is aged the same, and has always existed, at the most fundamental level. We are nature, nature is us. We are one with everything that has existed and always will exist.


Then you turn around and say it was impossible that there ever was "nothing"...so which is it - all the same age or all ageless?
Ageless. Infinity. It doesn't begin or end with a supernatural being. We are part of it all, and always will be.



Why fight so hard against the truth. Is it so hard to acknowledge that Someone Out There might actually be the boss of you? ;)

Because there is no evidence at all to support it other than superstitions made up by men. I am free, and i reject your supreme leader for the same reasons i reject political leaders. When I commune with nature, i get a very different story than when i commune with other men and read the words of other men. Nature is far more honest, than mankind.

You are an assembly of atoms and energy, just like everything else. You are one with it. Accept it, why is it so hard for you to accept the obvious? :)

You are free, for real! Reclaim your mind from the cultural engineers. (the men who want to represent your "God") :cool:

[TortoiseDream]

Well, it sounds like a good made-up story with a "liberal" dash of new-age spirituality, Clay.

Saying the universe just popped into existence at the Big Bang and that is the result of some high level quantum physics - it stirked me that someone would have to be pretty desperate to not want ot believe in God to swallow such a story.

You say the atoms of each of us are the same age as everything else in the universe. To have an age at all it had to have a beginning. Then you turn around and say it was impossible that there ever was "nothing"...so which is it - all the same age or all ageless?

Why fight so hard against the truth. Is it so hard to acknowledge that Someone Out There might actually be the boss of you? ;)

The ruler and ruled are one in the same.

[Original_Intent]

I don't let men represent my God.

But I don't claim co-equality with God either which is the New Age mumbo jumbo that is becoming all the rage, thanks Oprah.

Satanism has always used self worship as the gateway drug. No I am not saying you are Satanists - just that you have been deceived by them.

I'll totally acknowledge that most Christian religions, heck virtually all religions have been used throughout time as a control mechanism of some men to exert power over other men. That is why my belief system is my own, the correct purpose of religion SHOULD be to lead man to a relationship with God, not to interpose some men between God and everyone else.

Is there potential divine nature within each of us? Sure, I believe so.

For all my respect for Carl Sagan, his premise that God is just a cop-out not to learn may apply to some people, not to me. We should always seek to understand to expand our knowledge. In all areas.

[ClayTrainor]

I don't let men represent my God.

Good to hear! So, the Bible is totally, 100% meaningless to you? This has to be true, if you are going to be consistent with the above statement.



But I don't claim co-equality with God either which is the New Age mumbo jumbo that is becoming all the rage, thanks Oprah.

This kind of response gives me so much more confidence in my reasoning. :D

Are you seriously calling my reason, New Age Mumbo Jumbo and trying to conflate my views with Oprah? You can't be fucking serious, can you? Do you realize how insulting of a tone this sets? Try not to expose your spiritual insecurities so easily ;)

Also, I can't remember the last time Oprah did a special on Magic Mushrooms, neurotransmitters, quantum theory, atomic structures or genetics. What kind of point are you trying to prove here? What's with the mockery? Actually, i'm not that surprised. I've seen this before, when presenting this argument elsewhere. I am triggering some contradictions within your reasoning, and it is frustrating you. You reflect this frustration by mocking my positions, to protect your ego and the beliefs you've held for so long.

Reclaim Your Mind!



Satanism has always used self worship as the gateway drug. No I am not saying you are Satanists - just that you have been deceived by them.

Very arrogant . You are obviously very confident in the above statement in bold. If you are being 100% honest about this, I would like to learn from you. You obviously feel you know something rather significant, that i am not yet aware of.

Please help me learn, and Answer these questions, and save me from the deception of the "satanists".

1. Who / what is satan? and

2. How do you know that naturally occuring Neurotransmitters are part of his work and deception? Did you try them and experience some sort of satanic connection? Did you read somewhere that they are the devils work? Did God tell you this in some form of language? Did you take the satanists at their word, when they told you? Clearly you're not just making shit up, right? :rolleyes:

Just FYI, You trip on DMT every night and when you die, the last thing you will experience on this earth will be a DMT trip. Enjoy your meetings with Satan, i guess. Certainly naturally occuring extensions of our most beloved and cherished brain chemical (seratonin) have nothing to offer man, right? Honestly, i think you better do a little research on Neurotransmitters and the actual science behind them, before discrediting them with an obviously scripted belief that neurotransmitters are the work of "Satan", or "Satanists".

YouTube - Magic mushrooms on CNN - Long lasting postive effects .. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7yKpvBQhTw)

YouTube - DMT, Dreams and Near Death Experiences (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MQUGjd21MA)

Dr. Strassman and the thousands of other neuro-scientists = The Satanists who have deceived me, under your logic.

You need to justify your arguments with a little more empirical reasoning, OI.




I'll totally acknowledge that most Christian religions, heck virtually all religions have been used throughout time as a control mechanism of some men to exert power over other men.
Good, but obviously you understand this so you are an exception? Or are you actually willing to admit that, perhaps, no one is in control and that's why we truly desire to be free? :)



That is why my belief system is my own, the correct purpose of religion SHOULD be to lead man to a relationship with God, not to interpose some men between God and everyone else.

Define what you mean by God...

To me God is simply nature, and i make an attempt to communicate with nature in multiple forms. God, to me, is what we are all apart of. We are not separate from my version of God, we are one with it. We are it. Am i wrong? Under your logic, are we separate from this being? Who / what is this obvious God that i can't seem to find any evidence of?



Is there potential divine nature within each of us? Sure, I believe so.


moreso than everything else that exists?



For all my respect for Carl Sagan, his premise that God is just a cop-out not to learn may apply to some people, not to me.
But you cop out at the big bang, dont you? Let me reword that, into a better question. At what point did "God" create us, under your logic?



We should always seek to understand to expand our knowledge. In all areas.
I agree, and you are the one being closed minded, and not embracing "all areas".

Neurotransmitters are natural and have more to do with your perception and understanding of reality than you realize. They are what allows us to interpret this world, as we do. They are the source of the conscious mind, and their abundance in all forms of life is proof of this.

Reject it all you want... it is already part of your nature, no matter how much you ignore it :)

[Original_Intent]

See you say things like "nature's way of communicating with us" - so obviously nature has some intention, i.e. it must have someTHING to communicate to us, so nature msut have something it WANTS us to know, so suddenly nature has desires and so forth - sorry that is the way it sounds anyway - if that isn't what you are saying, clear it up for me.

No I do not believe God creates things ex nihilo, I have never believed that. I believe that we are co-eternal with God (we have always existed) but that the being God is far advanced of us. I really don't claim to know much about the creation of this universe, or this world. I don't claim to know much about God really other than that I believe he is there. What I mean by that is that I think that at best we understand ourselved, truly understand our own individual person AT BEST 1/10 of one percent. Maybe. And maybe the person you are closest to, again maybe 1/100th as well as you know yourself. So what can anyone really claim to know about God other than what God decides to reveal to them (He doesn't exactly subject Himself to empirical study, and I think there must be some good reason for that.)

I don't throw out the Bible, but I don't consider it infallible either. There is certainly plenty in it about God that I have NOT received personal confirmation of. However, I think throughout the ages, God has revealed at least aspects of Himself both before and after the Christian era, and to Christians and non-Christians. Certainly even the words as written originally could not convey adequately. Put those original words thru a few dozen translations, some of which by men who had a political agenda and plenty of reason to make creative edits - that is my opinion of the Bible. And yet - I believe there is enough truth there to point someone who wants to know in the right direction. Jesus asked Peter who He (Christ) was and Peter answered the Son of God. jesus said Peter was blessed because "flesh and blood have not revealed it to you, but my Father which is in heaven." So, to me it is pretty clear - yes reading the words of men is all well and good, but anyone can right a story, and some taleneted people can write a pretty believable one. So how can you know what to believe? From the only being that can clear up the guesswork from the facts. That is God.

Sad thing for some people is God laid down some rules to be able to get that guidance. And some people just can;t stand the idea of rules. That's where Satan comes in, and from the Garden of Eden on down he has been telling men that they can "be as God" - in other words, be their own god. Thru drugs and other methods of entering altered states of consciousness Satan counterfeits the physical sensations and visons, of revelation. So again, how can you know one from another?

Satan's version tells you there is no God, there is no need for God, you can be your own God. Satan doesn't require worship of himself, he simply requires the worship of anything OTHER than God. And now the typical new-ager would say "well see your god is just an egotist. He says everyone has got to worship Him that just shows what an eqotist God is." And frankly, I don't know the answer to that. I do not know why God requires worship of ONLY Himself. But I do know that it is not for His benefit, but for our benefit.

And I don't expect any of this to mean anything to you because you don't WANT it to mean anything to you. It starts out as atheism, but then even atheists get this feeling of "there is something else". But of course the something couldn;t be God, no that would be too terrible - so they latch on to drugs, new/age spiritualism, whatever, anything other than the truth. The sad thing is they feel that by so doing they have truly freed themselves, but another truth that has managed to survive in the Bible is that only the truth can do that.

And it is really really hard to have to acknowledge that you are completely helpless and completely 100% dependent on another being, because we are all incapable of finding that truth unless it shows itself to us.

[TortoiseDream]

I don't let men represent my God.

But I don't claim co-equality with God either which is the New Age mumbo jumbo that is becoming all the rage, thanks Oprah.

You cannot separate yourself from God, because God is all, and everyone is contained within that all. In other words God is not a separate being; we are the Being.


Satanism has always used self worship as the gateway drug. No I am not saying you are Satanists - just that you have been deceived by them.

It's not so much self-worship (that's missing the point), but rather worship for all things in nature. Worship of life. Worship of the stars. Worship of the sun. Viewed in this way, paganism isn't all too crazy.

[ClayTrainor]

it must have someTHING to communicate to us, so nature msut have something it WANTS us to know, so suddenly nature has desires and so forth - sorry that is the way it sounds anyway - if that isn't what you are saying, clear it up for me.

Nature is a self-correcting process.



No I do not believe God creates things ex nihilo, I have never believed that. I believe that we are co-eternal with God (we have always existed)

This line, is right in line with what i've been saying.


but that the being God is far advanced of us.
If we are one God, than how is he far advanced of us? Are you saying that the earth could be his nut sack, and we are his sperm, or something like that? Serious question, not mockery. What i'm really asking you is, Are we a part of his being, in the sense that he is physically LARGER than us, and we are inside him?



I really don't claim to know much about the creation of this universe, or this world. I don't claim to know much about God really other than that I believe he is there.
Thanks for admitting it :)



So what can anyone really claim to know about God other than what God decides to reveal to them (He doesn't exactly subject Himself to empirical study, and I think there must be some good reason for that.)

So basically you're saying there is absolutely no way to prove him, and you just simply believe in him based on a "feeling" you have.



I don't throw out the Bible, but I don't consider it infallible either.

Well natural law is infallible, and self-correcting. It is superior to the bible :)




There is certainly plenty in it about God that I have NOT received personal confirmation of. However, I think throughout the ages, God has revealed at least aspects of Himself both before and after the Christian era, and to Christians and non-Christians. Certainly even the words as written originally could not convey adequately.

Words do not describe the Magic Mushroom experience adequately either. "satanists" is just an obvious biblical cop-out. You must commune with Nature or "God" to understand what i mean, not simply ponder the words of men. You must understand that your perception is a product of neurotransmitters.



Put those original words thru a few dozen translations, some of which by men who had a political agenda and plenty of reason to make creative edits - that is my opinion of the Bible. And yet - I believe there is enough truth there to point someone who wants to know in the right direction.
You believe in ancient text written by men, and i believe in knowledge from nature... There's our difference.



Jesus asked Peter who He (Christ) was and Peter answered the Son of God. jesus said Peter was blessed because "flesh and blood have not revealed it to you, but my Father which is in heaven."

Jesus was the son of God, but so am i and so are you. We are all sons of nature.




So, to me it is pretty clear - yes reading the words of men is all well and good, but anyone can right a story, and some taleneted people can write a pretty believable one. So how can you know what to believe?

Thanks to admitting to your confusion :)

I agree, anyone can write a story, therefore i believe nature and the natural law for my morality, not the words of men.



From the only being that can clear up the guesswork from the facts. That is God.

Nature is a self-correcting process, i agree. Nature can correct man from over-complicating and attempting to take control of too many things.



Sad thing for some people is God laid down some rules to be able to get that guidance. And some people just can;t stand the idea of rules.

Where do these rules come from? Natural law, or the words of men?

Are you starting to understand where i'm coming from yet? This is a libertarian universe... it adheres to natural law, not supernatural tyrants.



That's where Satan comes in, and from the Garden of Eden on down he has been telling men that they can "be as God" - in other words, be their own god. Thru drugs and other methods of entering altered states of consciousness Satan counterfeits the physical sensations and visons, of revelation.
You didn't answer the questions on Satan in my last post...I do not know what you mean by "satan".



So again, how can you know one from another?


I do not believe in a God or Devil who judges and rates people based on good and evil.



Satan's version tells you there is no God, there is no need for God, you can be your own God. Satan doesn't require worship of himself, he simply requires the worship of anything OTHER than God.

Any God who wishes for worship, is no God of mine. I'd side with the devil, if this were the case. At least he is honest in his evil.





And I don't expect any of this to mean anything to you because you don't WANT it to mean anything to you.
Actually it's just your faith in the words of man, and lack of faith in nature. This is why i reject it. You have not provided anything other than biblical arguments, as i expected.



And it is really really hard to have to acknowledge that you are completely helpless and completely 100% dependent on another being, because we are all incapable of finding that truth unless it shows itself to us.

100% biblical arguments, stemmed from faith, not reason.

Faith:

Great Confidence in something which can't be proven.

[TortoiseDream]

Nature is a self-correcting process.

That's because nature is always natural ;).


Do you consider it the words of men?

Moreso to original intent, but doesn't it make sense to look for something equivalent to "God's word" within nature? Whether it be science, biology, or just simple strolls through the forest? I think it makes more sense to look for it there (where it is in plain sight, in my opinion) than in books written by men. But then again, we are products of nature too, so they should be equivalent sources. Anyways, I prefer the nature stroll.


You believe in ancient text written by men, and i believe in knowledge from nature... There's our difference.

Yea this is where I should have made that point. Are men not products of nature too? In other words, what is natural? I don't believe anything in nature can escape being natural. Both sources should convey the same message.


Jesus was the son of God, but so am i and so are you. We are all sons of nature.

I agree with this 100%. It's the same thing as the water example. We're all avatars of God.

[ClayTrainor]

That's because nature is always natural ;).

:D




Moreso to original intent, but doesn't it make sense to look for something equivalent to "God's word" within nature? Whether it be science, biology, or just simple strolls through the forest? I think it makes more sense to look for it there (where it is in plain sight, in my opinion) than in books written by men. But then again, we are products of nature too, so they should be equivalent sources. Anyways, I prefer the nature stroll.

I simply don't trust mankind, and look elsewhere for spiritual wisdom :)




Yea this is where I should have made that point. Are men not products of nature too? In other words, what is natural? I don't believe anything in nature can escape being natural. Both sources should convey the same message.


When i refer to natural in these types of arguments, i tend to ignore "man-made" in my use of the word, although i do regard all of mans creations ultimately as natural.

I find Man is dishonest with man, but other forms of nature have no reason to lie to us :)



I agree with this 100%. It's the same thing as the water example. We're all avatars of God.

Yup, i reject that Jesus was a greater man than I. We are one and the same :D

[TortoiseDream]

When i refer to natural in these types of arguments, i tend to ignore "man-made" in my use of the word, although i do regard all of mans creations ultimately as natural.

I find Man is dishonest with man, but other forms of nature have no reason to lie to us :)

But don't you see, those lies are the truth.

[ClayTrainor]

But don't you see, those lies are the truth.

So when someone says a blue pen is red, it is true, even though it is, in fact, blue?

The truth can be found in a lie, but it's not as easy to find as it is in honest nature.

[TortoiseDream]

So when someone says a blue pen is red, it is true, even though it is, in fact, blue?

No it's not true, but the lie is true. There's a difference. Telling lies is part of the nature of being human, that's what I mean.

That's why I find the skyscraper and the sequoia to have equal beauty.

[ClayTrainor]

No it's not true, but the lie is true. There's a difference. Telling lies is part of the nature of being human, that's what I mean.


I Agree with this.



That's why I find the skyscraper and the sequoia to have equal beauty.
I agree with this.

The sequoia and the skyscraper are merely the product of Atoms behaving as they do for a set amount of time. (i choose not to go deeper than atoms, right now, haha)

[nayjevin]

http://i37.tinypic.com/110lro5.jpg

popcorn, get yer popcorn

[nayjevin]

YouTube - George Harrison's sitar-lesson with Ravi Shankar (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erLZ-zW9Ti4)

George Harrison's smile is God

YouTube - Sweet Child of Mine .... Sitar Version (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WM1nav-rjeI)

The woman at the end is priceless

YouTube - Lateralus - Tool (Fractals) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQepUA3p8GI)

'overthinking, overanalyzing -- separate the body from the mind'

YouTube - Ozzy Osbourne-Dreamer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbJqswLi3uE)

'Imagine' part 2

BTW... did you notice you started this thread near midnight on the sabbath? lol... just sayin ;)

[TortoiseDream]

YouTube - Pentangle - House Carpenter (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4jXfMEu1YY)

[ClayTrainor]

YouTube - George Harrison's sitar-lesson with Ravi Shankar (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erLZ-zW9Ti4)

George Harrison's smile is God

YouTube - Sweet Child of Mine .... Sitar Version (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WM1nav-rjeI)




The sitar is one interesting sounding instrument...




YouTube - Lateralus - Tool (Fractals) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQepUA3p8GI)

'overthinking, overanalyzing -- separate the body from the mind'


Tool s incredible! :D



BTW... did you notice you started this thread near midnight on the sabbath? lol... just sayin ;)

:eek: It must be a sign :p

Honestly, i had no idea, til you mentioned it. haha.

[Diogenese_]

I don't let men represent my God.

But I don't claim co-equality with God either which is the New Age mumbo jumbo that is becoming all the rage, thanks Oprah.

It has been my experience that "new agers" do not have any consistent theology or doctrine. The only thing they really have in common is a need search outside of the dogma of established religion for answers. Many that are called "new agers" are trying very seriously to revive ancient pagan religious traditions and would more appropriately be called "nouveau pagans" or some such thing.

I would also point out that Oprah is a victim of childhood sexual abuse. I can't say this is true of her personally, but I have known "new agers" that have felt a need to reject the Christian Church because it did not protect them from such childhood abuse and that is the basis of their "new age" search into alternate forms of Spirituality. This is a reasonable response.


Satanism has always used self worship as the gateway drug. No I am not saying you are Satanists - just that you have been deceived by them.

"Satanism" is a specific religous movement which is poorly understood and little practiced. Most "new agers" reject Satanism. I believe you have misused the term here.



I'll totally acknowledge that most Christian religions, heck virtually all religions have been used throughout time as a control mechanism of some men to exert power over other men. That is why my belief system is my own, the correct purpose of religion SHOULD be to lead man to a relationship with God, not to interpose some men between God and everyone else.


That's why it's a valuable exercise for Christians to separate the Teachings of the Master from the dogma of the church.

[Diogenese_]

Satan's version tells you there is no God, there is no need for God, you can be your own God. Satan doesn't require worship of himself, he simply requires the worship of anything OTHER than God. And now the typical new-ager would say "well see your god is just an egotist. He says everyone has got to worship Him that just shows what an eqotist God is." And frankly, I don't know the answer to that. I do not know why God requires worship of ONLY Himself. But I do know that it is not for His benefit, but for our benefit.


Please do a Bible Study on the history of the concept of Satan. I would advise you to include the Jewish viewpoint as well as the Christian.

Again - there is no such thing as a "typical new-ager". Some of them have a theology that is very close to Judeo-Christian monotheism. Some of them are extremely concerned with what they believe is the manifestation of "Angels among us". Others believe the answers will come from re-discovering the secrets of Atlantis or Egypt.

I have counseled many "new agers" in the process of "converting" to a new religion. My advice is always "Study and understand the religion you were brought up in before you jump into a new one. It will probably save many steps in your journey to Spiritual understanding."

[ClayTrainor]

I have counseled many "new agers" in the process of "converting" to a new religion. My advice is always "Study and understand the religion you were brought up in before you jump into a new one. It will probably save many steps in your journey to Spiritual understanding."

Would you consider me a "new-ager"? My method of analyzing this stuff has been around for thousands of years as well. (consuming healthy neuro-transmitters, that already naturally occur in nearly all forms of life). I actually believe Magic Mushrooms played a key role in why the human brain has evolved beyond that of other apes. I believe DMT and the Pineal gland are essentially evolving a brand new perception on reality for mankind. A third eye... A new sense, if you will...

I believe the animating force that is our conscious life (spirit), has been brought into these 3 dimensions thanks to variations of seratonin on our brain. I really do think Nature is communicating with man, and consuming neurotransmitters performs a balancing effect on our spirit and outlook on life. Nature is a self-balancing act, and we are nothing more than nature.

Am I a "new-ager" despite my ancient methods?

[Diogenese_]

It is a term used to categorize others more often than it is used by an individual to categorize their own beliefs or life style.

Logically speaking - if we are speaking about the search for the Eternal One - time is not relevant, the term "new-ager" is an oxymoron when applied to a serious seeker of Truth.

[ClayTrainor]

Logically speaking - if we are speaking about the search for the Eternal One - time is not relevant, the term "new-ager" is an oxymoron when applied to a serious seeker of Truth.

Good point!

[Original_Intent]

It is interesting that the third eye is the sixth chakra and is the focus of most of the new age enlightenment (whihc usually boils down to getting what you want by projecting your desires out and waiting for the universe to supply your desires) and the 7th chakra is the crown of the head (laying on of hands). I think it is the same universal force being utilized, it is just that one is trying to exert the individual will and the other is submitting to another will. I realize among Libertarians the concept of submission is anathema (at least for most). Well, I think it is pretty anathema for all men, that is why it is so difficult.

[ClayTrainor]

It is interesting that the third eye is the sixth chakra and is the focus of most of the new age enlightenment (whihc usually boils down to getting what you want by projecting your desires out and waiting for the universe to supply your desires) and the 7th chakra is the crown of the head (laying on of hands).

My arguments aren't based around protecting my desires... My arguments are based around what is reality, and an attempt to understand my nature or "spirit".


I think it is the same universal force being utilized, it is just that one is trying to exert the individual will and the other is submitting to another will. I realize among Libertarians the concept of submission is anathema (at least for most). Well, I think it is pretty anathema for all men, that is why it is so difficult.

Sorry, this is the first time i've seen that word.

Anathema: (in Greek Ανάθεμα) originally meant something lifted up as an offering to the gods

So what do you mean? There is a supreme tyrant, and we better all accept it, and conform to his will? Perhaps, but i think his will, if he does exist, is not illustrated in the words of men, but elsewhere in nature.

[Original_Intent]

My arguments aren't based around protecting my desires... My arguments are based around what is reality, and an attempt to understand my nature or "spirit".



Sorry, this is the first time i've seen that word.

Anathema: (in Greek Ανάθεμα) originally meant something lifted up as an offering to the gods

So what do you mean? There is a supreme tyrant, and we better all accept it, and conform to his will? Perhaps, but i think his will, if he does exist, is not illustrated in the words of men, but elsewhere in nature.

Sorry, I should not use big words that I don't understand - I always understood anathema to mean something like "opposed to the basic nature" of something. That was just my (mis?) understanding, I did not look it up.

just looked it up -this was the usage I was using...

b : someone or something intensely disliked or loathed —usually used as a predicate nominative <this notion was anathema to most of his countrymen — S. J. Gould>

No I do not believe God is a supreme tyrant at all - He does not force at all, but He does want us to chose Him. He wants us to conform to His will because His will is for us to be ultimately happy. Sometimes achieving long term happiness means doing things that are difficult, unpleasant, etc. I don't think God casts people down to hell, I think they willingly go there because they cannot stand to be in the presence of God. As C.S Lewis said, ultimately there are two kinds of people; thos who say to God "Thy will be done", and those to whom God says "Thy will be done". In the garden of Gethsemane even Christ said He did not want to go thru what He knew was coming but said, "not my will but thine be done." God is not the one that tries to take choice away, it is choosing incorrectly which ultimately leads to misery and addiction. (ultimate slavery imo)

[ClayTrainor]

Sorry, I should not use big words that I don't understand - I always understood anathema to mean something like "opposed to the basic nature" of something. That was just my (mis?) understanding, I did not look it up.

haha k... no problem. I had never seen the word before, so i had to look it up, lol.

BTW, I fully respect you despite our disagreements on this topic. Just want to make sure that's clear amongst my arguments. :)

[Diogenese_]

It is interesting that the third eye is the sixth chakra and is the focus of most of the new age enlightenment (whihc usually boils down to getting what you want by projecting your desires out and waiting for the universe to supply your desires) and the 7th chakra is the crown of the head (laying on of hands). I think it is the same universal force being utilized, it is just that one is trying to exert the individual will and the other is submitting to another will. I realize among Libertarians the concept of submission is anathema (at least for most). Well, I think it is pretty anathema for all men, that is why it is so difficult.

First three google definitions for the sixth chakra -


What is the sixth chakra energy?
Sixth chakra energy resonates with clear thinking and clear vision. Nurturing this center allows us to integrate our intelligence with our intuition and end our fear of knowing the truth.

http://www.essortment.com/all/whatsixthchakr_rgqd.htm


The Intuitive- The Intuitive Archetype is correlated to the healthy functioning of the sixth chakra. The Intuitive Archetype describes the person who has learned their own healing concepts and activated them with intuition. With intuition guiding the process of intellectual discovery of the world, the sixth chakra becomes charged and flows quickly. The more quickly the sixth chakra flows the higher the vibration of the person's energy. The sixth chakra works with both the conscious and subconscious mind, and is rooted in the pineal gland within the center of the brain.

http://www.spiritualconcepts.org/ARCHETYPEShtm.html



6th Chakra

"Ajna" is the Sanskrit word for the 6th chakra. It means "beyond wisdom." It has also been translated to mean "the perception center."

The 6th chakra is located between, and just above, the eyes. It is often referred to as the "third eye." This chakra deals with visualization, intuition, imagination and telepathy.

Organ/parts of body associated with the 6th chakra:

* Pituitary gland, eyes, head, lower brain

The emotion for the 6th chakra is "knowing", an intuitive type of knowing. When this chakra is dominant, one may have clairvoyant abilities...being able to see things that others can't.

The color is purple/violet, both spiritual colors.

When the energy in the 6th chakra is excessive, it can cause headaches, hallucinations, nightmares and difficulty in concentrating.

But when the energy is deficient, there may be eye problems, poor memory, inability to visualize.

Yoga poses for the 6th chakra are supported forward bends and also eye exercises. Doing positive visualizations can also strengthen this chakra.

http://www.nothingbutyoga.com/6th-chakra.html


The sixth chakra seems to have more to do with input (Knowing) than output (willfullness).

I am not sure where you got your information from.

[Diogenese_]

Is more about finding your place in this world and fulfilling your purpose than submitting your self and surrendering your will.

[ClayTrainor]

Is more about finding your place in this world and fulfilling your purpose than submitting your self and surrendering your will.

Well said!

This is why it's so important to let go of our ego, from time to time, and look at ourselves from an alternate perspective. Some people are able to do it through meditation, i personally believe i'm able to do it through consumption of the variations of the Seratonin neurotransmitter.

[Original_Intent]

First three google definitions for the sixth chakra -



http://www.essortment.com/all/whatsixthchakr_rgqd.htm



http://www.spiritualconcepts.org/ARCHETYPEShtm.html




http://www.nothingbutyoga.com/6th-chakra.html


The sixth chakra seems to have more to do with input (Knowing) than output (willfullness).

I am not sure where you got your information from.

The sixth chakra has both an input (third eye) and output (back of the head.)
Visions, etc relate to the sixth chakra however other higher level spirit input such as hearing voices and so forth are also related to this chakra.

The reason it is also used as an expression of will through its output channel is what do new-age spiritualism books tell you always to do? Visualize what you want and WILL it into your life. I have plenty of experience (decades) with chakras and body energy, snake energy, kundalini energy, whatever, thanks.

[nayjevin]

The reason it is also used as an expression of will through its output channel is what do new-age spiritualism books tell you always to do? Visualize what you want and WILL it into your life. I have plenty of experience (decades) with chakras and body energy, snake energy, kundalini energy, whatever, thanks.

Yeah, the old 'God gave me a good parking spot' myth.

We get from life what we put in it, but I have yet to see a real ability to will significant changes. The way I see it, changing the focus/direction of our thoughts can change our attitudes and ability to succeed, but our hands do the vast majority of the real work.