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ClayTrainor
10-16-2009, 03:54 AM
YouTube - We Think (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiP79vYsfbo&feature=player_embedded#)

FindLiberty
10-16-2009, 04:39 AM
I think I like it... up until the important stuff near the end where there are huge gaps, details that still need to be worked out.

Wouldn't it be swell if we could all just sit around and pontificate on the internet or play video games while all our other basic needs are provided for... Reminds me of the Morlocks (ranchers) and the Eloi (childlike livestock) just before the communistic human race completely loses any need for intelligence and character in H.G. Well's "The Time Machine".

Take away property and overlook how to pay for things we each need to survive leaves me thinking this "We Think" idea could eventually turn everything into candy coated poop.

Wait, that's already happening...

Matthew Zak
10-16-2009, 10:05 AM
Interesting video, but it slaps liberty in the face.

In the past we "Were" what we "owned".

Now we "are" what we "share".

ClayTrainor
10-16-2009, 10:10 AM
Interesting video, but it slaps liberty in the face.

In the past we "Were" what we "owned".

Now we "are" what we "share".

It doesn't slap liberty in the face, at all imo, although i can see how you could take it that way. Allow me to try and explain...

It's actually fairly logical. Wikipedia for example, the value of that resource comes from over 100 million people voluntarily sharing information. You don't need to buy $500 worth of encyclopedia's anymore, or even pay for the Encarta DVDs.

Linux is a free distribution, in which individuals in software communities voluntarily share their skills and information to grow it. Linux doesn't need corporate jets or CEO's, or a financial income to be very powerful business software, and compete with Windows and Mac. Online communities are understanding that online sharing can benefit mankind as much big business.

Heck, the reason this very forum is so valuable is because we are a community willing to voluntarily share with one another, to achieve a common goal. We are a clear example of the power of the internet, and it's ability to get people who don't even know each other, working together. This movement would not exist without the power of the internet, and we must grasp that to understand where our true influential and organizing power comes from.

The internet is revolutionizing the way we view democracy and capitalism, and the individual has direct input into the construction of our most powerful assets. You should take the time to watch the movie in this thread http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=214724

I swear, it's the best argument i've ever heard for eliminating the need for political leadership and massive corporations. There is a new, purer form of democracy forming, in which you actually give your full input to the community whenever you feel it's needed, rather than just scratching names on a piece of paper every few years, and playing majority rules as if it's a freaking game. We don't need politicians or massive corporations anymore, the internet is the true revolution that man needs to embrace and utilize.

ClayTrainor
10-16-2009, 10:13 AM
Here's another awesome clip to consider and think about :)

YouTube - Web 2.0 ... The Machine is Us/ing Us (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gmP4nk0EOE)

Matthew Zak
10-16-2009, 10:13 AM
I agree in principal, but the choice of words is alarming to me because it erases the individual as someone who owned their own property, and recreates the individual as someone who doesn't own anything. Maybe I just over analyzed it.

LibertyEagle
10-16-2009, 10:16 AM
Clay, but isn't that first video you recommended giving a high-five to Democracy? You know, mob rule?

ClayTrainor
10-16-2009, 10:17 AM
I agree in principal, but the choice of words is alarming to me because it erases the individual as someone who owned their own property, and recreates the individual as someone who doesn't own anything. Maybe I just over analyzed it.

I probably would've done the same if I hadn't watched "Us now" first. :)

I can see how you could take it that way but, I really don't think it's making an argument against property rights, at all. This may be the one thing that can actually get libertarians and socialists working together to eliminate oppression, instead of fighting for political powers in order to do so.

ClayTrainor
10-16-2009, 10:22 AM
Clay, but isn't that first video you recommended giving a high-five to Democracy? You know, mob rule?

you didn't watch it, i'm guessing?... no it doesn't. It essentially makes the argument to organize society much in the way that Wikipedia is organized.

A Democracy where every individual gets full-blown voluntary input, not a measly annual vote. It's not an enforced democracy, but just a more effective method of voluntary social organization that is already revolutionizing the world. It doesn't advertise a utopian solution, but presents a logical argument based on empirical online societies that have been exteremely successful.

It basically presents the argument internet can revolutionize the way we do business and politics, and eliminate the need for political and corporate authorities.

ClayTrainor
10-16-2009, 10:29 AM
Liberty Eagle, i think i just thought of a good example, to explain what i mean.

Imagine if the police were subject the the rule of an online forum much like this one, instead of democratically elected politicians.

Imagine if the individuals in the community ACTUALLY were able to give their full input to the police online, in the form of an online forum, instead of voting for politicians to give their input. Imagine if the local police were actually subject to the rule of this 100% voluntary community forum?

Imagine if the local police had to go face to face with oppressed communities on issues like "war on drugs"? They would lose the debate, if it was out in the open, and we had an actual say instead of a vote.

Ron Paul has never had any true political power from being elected under the constitution, although that's the reason we're all aware of him and respect him. We have to admit that his true political power comes from us, the self-organizing internet. :)

Does this make sense to you?

WClint
10-16-2009, 10:51 AM
Seems like bullshit. Why is it presented in such a vague manner,it wants you to start using your left side of the brain rather than the right side.

Here is what it says:


Welcome to the world of we think.
The audience is taking the stage...
Thanks to the web millions have there say...
Information is everywhere: blogs, videos, websites
Which is pretty confusing
But ideas take life when they are shared.
The web gets really interesting when people pool there ideas.
Then they start to be really creative
Because new ideas usually come from conversations
and web is a mass of conversations
Thats why its creating mass inovation
The 20th century = mass production for mass consumption
Factories, cars, televisions and fridges...
The 20th century = mass innovation
More ideas being shared by more people than ever before


The first signs of what is possible are.
Wikipedia, Linux, slashdot and ohmynews,second life and world of warcraft.
millions of people creating games, worlds, knowledge, information, software

These where created by companies who did it for a profit not because they wanted a "community".



Old groaning corporations are the wrong SHAPE to do this

The looked like this -
Pryamid
Mass innovation comes from communities
Which more like this.
Its like building a birds nest
Where everyone leaves there piece
And why are people drawn to these communities?
Not to get rich
They want to socialize and get recognition for the work they do.


Take for example World of Warcraft. It was created by Blizzard Entertainment. The community came because they have built up there brand. There is no way that a group of "volunteers" could ever create anything in the same ball park.




The motto of the generation growing up with the web is
We think therefore we are

That should be good for...
Democracy
Because more people will have a voice
Equality because knowledge can be free to help people who need it but cannot pay
Freedom because more people will know what its like to be creative
That sounds like utopia

The new generation are collectivists? Equality and Freedom are buzz words meant to evoke certain "feelings".



and there is alot to be worked out
How do we protect what is private?
Are we always safe sharing?
What if wikipedia is crap?
How do we earn a living when everyone is freely sharing there ideas?
In the past you were what you owned
Now you are what you share
What do you think?


Sounds like they want to reinvent the wheel, we already have solutions to these problems... still sounds like "Utopia"

ClayTrainor
10-16-2009, 10:59 AM
Seems like bullshit. Why is it presented in so vague, more cerebral than informative.
It wants you to start using your left side of the brain rather than the right side.

This video doesn't represent what i'm trying to illustrate the best, i suppose. It can sort of seem socialist if you're not aware of the fundamental arguments.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=214724

I recommend you check out the movie in the above thread :)




Take for example World of Warcraft. It was created by Blizzard, the people came because they have built up there brand and the quality of product was through the roof. There is no way that a group of "volunteers" could ever create anything in the same ball park.

You are so going to be proven wrong about that... it just hasn't gotten there on the mmo scale yet. There's no doubt in my mind that free mmo's will come about, once we improve network interfaces a bit more.


I personally mostly play video game mods, from 100% free online communities. I think the single most realistic game made to date, is 100% free.

www.realitymod.com

:)



Some things such as software might be okay IE Linux but making games that require multitalented people can not work.


i don't agree, you're pretty much acting like humanity is limited unless only small groups of individuals are profiting from big business decisions. I think we're moving into an age where voluntary online organization is trumping the need for politicians and massive corporations. I agree profit is awesome, and a great incentive, I'm 100% behind capitalism, but things like wikipedia and the reality mod above, are social profits in which people share their assets and skills.

Are you aware of the 100% free video game modding community? www.moddb.com It's as popular as most mainstream games that sell in large quantities.



Very few people are are actually innovative, these people would have to have an IQ over 140

Perhaps, but i think you drastically underestimate the power of voluntary individuals organizing on the internet, and overestimate the necessity of central government (perhaps) and central business organization. This is ultimately an argument for decentralizing power, in all forms.

Admit it, Ron Paul has never had any true political power from being elected under the constitution, although that's the reason we're all aware of him and respect him. We have to admit that his true political power comes from us, the self-organizing internet.

ClayTrainor
10-16-2009, 11:05 AM
Take for example World of Warcraft. It was created by Blizzard Entertainment. The community came because they have built up there brand. There is no way that a group of "volunteers" could ever create anything in the same ball park.


By the way, here's a website dedicated to 100% free mmo's :)

http://mmohut.com/gamelist

WOW will be dominated by a competing online community, one day, no doubt in my mind. It may even be a free one.

The MMO profit system may go the way of the music industry ;)

pacelli
10-16-2009, 11:13 AM
We are what we share?

That sounds familiar to me. Oh yeah, communism.

ClayTrainor
10-16-2009, 11:17 AM
We are what we share?

That sounds familiar to me. Oh yeah, communism.

ugh, people are totally missing the point on this one.

What do you think a political contribution is and why is it important? You're sharing!!!

Todd
10-16-2009, 11:18 AM
We are what we share?

That sounds familiar to me. Oh yeah, communism.

I just showed this to a socialist and he loved it. :(

ClayTrainor
10-16-2009, 11:20 AM
I just showed this to a socialist and he loved it. :(

I'm 100% capitalist and i love it. LEARN FROM THIS!

Smash through the left vs. right paradigm, for the love of God!!!!

Admit it, Ron Paul has never had any true political power from being elected under the constitution, although that's the reason we're all aware of him and respect him. We have to admit that his true political power comes from us, the VOLUNTARILY self-organizing internet, and yes promoting constitutional limitations on government is HUGELY important. I'm not arguing against that.

LibertyEagle
10-16-2009, 11:22 AM
you didn't watch it, i'm guessing?... no it doesn't. It essentially makes the argument to organize society much in the way that Wikipedia is organized.

No, I watched it. I wouldn't have commented on it if I hadn't. :)

I think what you're suggesting though is to use some of this approach for organizing support for candidates and such, right? As long as it is voluntary, that would be cool. It's just that in the video, they talk about using it for government. That is what concerned me, ya know?

ClayTrainor
10-16-2009, 11:23 AM
No, I watched it. I wouldn't have commented on it if I hadn't. :)

I love you LE, but you really think it's promoting majority rule? If so, i think you're looking at the word "democracy" a little too linear, just as socialists do with Capitalism. It's not referring to majority rule, when it refers to democracy, it's referring to individual input. Sort of how you just put your thoughts into this thread:)

It's promoting the idea of what makes this forum such an asset to liberty. It's a decentralization argument, but it's not anti-capitalist or anything like that at all. You can support the constitution, the republic, and still find a lot of value in this information. This is how we organize to win the fight for the rights of the individual :)

I suppose you could say the internet is a form of socialism, and public property in a lot of ways, but private property is clearly the foundation of liberty. Our server space and our domains are still our private property however, Wikipedia is a form of socialism, i can support. It's 100% voluntary.

LibertyEagle
10-16-2009, 11:32 AM
I love you LE, but you really think it's promoting majority rule?
Yeah, that was my take on it.


It's promoting the idea of what makes this forum such an asset to liberty. It's a decentralization argument, but it's not anti-capitalist or anything like that at all. You can support the constitution, the republic, and still find a lot of value in this information. This is how we organize to win the fight for the rights of the individual :)

I'm all for voluntary associations, Clay, and for using them to accomplish many things. It's only crosses the line when it changes to a bunch of people thinking that just because they all agreed, that they have the right to tell me how to live, or have access to my checkbook.

ClayTrainor
10-16-2009, 11:37 AM
Yeah, that was my take on it.

I think you're looking at the word "democracy" a little too linear (or perhaps too broadly? lol), just as socialists do with Capitalism and Republics. It's not referring to majority rule, when it refers to democracy, it's referring to the input of individual. Sort of how you just put your thoughts into this thread, and people can figure out for themselves who they agree with, without force.



I'm all for voluntary associations, Clay, and for using them to accomplish many things.
It is the true power of our movement, you have to admit it. :)

Political donations are 100% voluntary, and that power was elevated through voluntary online social organization.


It's only crosses the line when it changes to a bunch of people thinking that just because they all agreed, that they have the right to tell me how to live, or have access to my checkbook.

I couldn't agree more, and "Us Now" does not endorse getting people to tell you how to live. If you think it did, i think my initial argument of how you're interpreting the word democracy, is the source of confusion. Democracy isn't inherently bad, when force is removed from the equation, however i agree, i prefer not to use the word, myself.

They don't use it to mean majority rule, just as Friedman didn't use capitalism to mean corporatism as Michael Moore would have you believe.

Compelling argument? :)

LibertyEagle
10-16-2009, 11:39 AM
Clay, I'm all for what you're recommending as a way to accomplish objectives in furthering liberty, if that's what you're asking. Yup, sure am. Just as long as that line is not crossed.

YumYum
10-16-2009, 11:39 AM
This could be the answer when everything falls apart. Organising and decisions could be made in an instant. And I agree about sharing. Everything is not measured in terms of dollars and cents. How much are the posters on this forum getting paid to contribute?

ClayTrainor
10-16-2009, 11:42 AM
Clay, I'm all for what you're recommending as a way to accomplish objectives in furthering liberty, if that's what you're asking. Yup, sure am. Just as long as that line is not crossed.

Then we are in full agreement :D

I do not believe the film crossed the line, but it's okay that you interpreted it that way. It appears you weren't the only one. I believe this is true paradigm smashing stuff... true liberty for socialists and libertarians alike.

ClayTrainor
10-16-2009, 11:43 AM
This could be the answer when everything falls apart.

It is becoming the answer as everything falls apart, almost naturally. Anyone who grasps how to use the internet, understand that they can find a solution, or a path to a solution to most of lifes problems by simply interacting and learning from others on the internet.

The internet is the heart of the revolution, there absolutely no doubt in my mind about this. It has the ability to please socialists and capitalists if we are truly interested in eliminating oppression, not assuming political powers, as we all claim we are.


Everything is not measured in terms of dollars and cents. How much are the posters on this forum getting paid to contribute?

One could even argue that the FED creates the illusion of the value for dollars and cents. True value lies elsewhere. ;)

coyote_sprit
10-19-2009, 06:51 AM
Wikipedia, Linux, slashdot and ohmynews,second life and world of warcraft
Wikipedia is popular thanks in part to Google, Linux would be much smaller without IBM, Red Hat, Novell, the US government, etc., Slashdot is owned by SourceForge, I don't even know what the fuck oh my news is, Second Life is shit and WoW was made by Blizzard so they could rake in 150mil a month. That being said this would completely refute the next line.

Old groaning corporations are the wrong SHAPE to do this
Any Questions?

ClayTrainor
10-19-2009, 02:50 PM
Any Questions?

Do you think it's possible that big corporations will lose a stranglehold on this market?

I personally mostly play free mods, as i am able to find ones that are far more tuned to my interests than games built for mass market profits, by corporations. I can even go on the forums, talk to the developers and they will actually listen to my input as if it's valuable. www.realitymod.com is a perfect example of this. There is no mass-market game that has met my gaming needs like this one has. I get the feeling WOW will one day be trumped, but a free MMO, but networking technology isn't QUITE there yet.

http://mmohut.com/gamelist - Although it's getting close.

We need to learn that true value doesn't like in dollars and cents, or the ability to make dollars and cents. Dismantling the FED can help get us on the right path, obviously :)