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View Full Version : Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Gain Valuable Experience? US Gov says screw you




BlackTerrel
10-14-2009, 08:19 PM
From Mark Cuban...

http://blogmaverick.com/2009/09/05/want-an-unpaid-internship-so-you-can-get-valuable-experience-screw-you/


That is what the US Department of Labor is saying to everyone and anyone who wants to get their foot in the door. You are SOL. There is no such thing as an unpaid intern anymore. Our government at its finest.

This summer, in response to the changing sports media landscape, I wanted to create a “media pool” for the Mavs. I wanted to assemble a group of unpaid interns that would acquire video, write game reports, track unique stats, do interviews, interact with fans, and then compile all of this incremental media and provide it free to any and every outlet we could think of. If a middle school newspaper or website wanted up to the minute Mavs reports, check. We had em. Social networks ? All the content you need. Of course we would update our Mavs.com, mavswiki.com, friends.mavs.com websites and offer the content to any and every blogger out there.

The good news is that we would create fresh content and make it available in realtime. Call it “Event Driven” media. The bad news is that there was no way we were going to be able to charge for it. Nor was there any assurances that we could generate enough traffic for the content that we could reasonably believe that we could earn any advertising revenue. In fact, it probably would have cost us more to try to sell advertising via ad networks (contracts, monitoring, reports) than we could recoup in ad revenues.

Given we were lightyears from this being a self sustaining business, and that with the economy in the shitter we didnt have excess financial resources to subsidize this effort, I decided to use unapid interns.

One silver lining of a “great recession” that we are now in is that there are a lot of incredibly talented people without jobs, or who have lost their jobs. I didn’t care if they were 18 years old or 73 years old. I thought we could assemble a talented group who would enjoy the internships and could also gain valuable experience to add to their resumes. When the economy opened up, one of two things would hopefully occur. We were generating revenue from this effort and we could hire them, or they had just built up their resumes and improved their chances of finding a paying job.

Makes sense right ?

Wrong. Enter the US Government.

This is what our HR person, who his supersmart and really knows his stuff came back with

“The law says that interns have to be paid unless they are perfoming work that is of no value to the organization; ie., helps them in some way but we get no benefit from their work. Thus we would have to create work that is useless to us if we choose not to pay them. How silly is that? “

Silly indeed. My response:

“So u r sayin g there r no legally unpaid interns in the state or country ?”...

...Welcome to the USA of the 2009. Where the government, both Republicans and Democrats, thinks that doing nothing is a far better alternative than being productive and gaining experience ! Where our politicians would rather see you pay out of your pocket to go back to school rather than get valuable on the job experience.

If you are in a position where you think an unpaid internship would benefit you and your career, please contact your local state representative and senator and let them know how stupid you think this law is.

And in the meantime, for all of you who have been sending me emails asking for an unpaid internship and telling me how valuable the experience would be to you. Now you know why I dont respond.

Warrior_of_Freedom
10-14-2009, 08:21 PM
huh, is that every state?

Dionysus
10-14-2009, 08:24 PM
I would totally be open to an unpaid internship in the right company. This sucks.

Brian4Liberty
10-14-2009, 08:41 PM
When I was in College, internships were paid, much better than minimum wage. I have also worked at a company where they bragged that they could get the best and brightest to work for them for free. Their basic philosophy was to milk interns/employees for all they could, and if they could get away with paying nothing, they would. They were scum.

jkr
10-14-2009, 09:01 PM
how does not paying people help people
who

need

to

be

paid?


yeah ill work for free, right after all my other financial commitments are satisfied. i think thats called a hobby.
most "jobs" do not "pay" enough as is.


i dont need to make a crushing profit.
but can i at least EAT?

Dionysus
10-14-2009, 09:20 PM
I understand the view that unpaid internships are rapacious exploitation, but most aren't full-time, and the whole idea is to show that you're a good employee with lots to offer. It's much more effective than a resume. I hate the concept of resumes. If I could just compete as an unpaid intern for 4 weeks, I'd do it in a heartbeat for the right company.

heavenlyboy34
10-14-2009, 09:25 PM
how does not paying people help people
who

need

to

be

paid?


yeah ill work for free, right after all my other financial commitments are satisfied. i think thats called a hobby.
most "jobs" do not "pay" enough as is.


i dont need to make a crushing profit.
but can i at least EAT?

It provides experience that leads to a better paying job or that first job in one's desired industry. You would be fortunate to get this experience for free, in my experience. All the design internships in my area require a fee! :(

BlackTerrel
10-14-2009, 09:32 PM
how does not paying people help people
who

need

to

be

paid?

Well people who don't need to be paid wouldn't take these jobs.

But there are people who want to gain experience so they will make more money later on. Say there options are #1 gaining real world/valuable experience for free (but no pay) or #2 paying to go to college?

Don't you think #1 makes more sense for certain people than option #2? The government is taking option #1 away and forcing those people to pay for school.

jkr
10-14-2009, 09:49 PM
absolutely
it did and it does if you can do it...i went back to school and got into debt instead. now nothing will pay enough...but i cant even get a call back on a CAD job these days...i have 18 years experience int that alone.

id be willing to do non profit if i can eat and not use anymore "credit" to live off of.

now days the apprentice model is becoming less available since there is not much actual production going on-or development

HOWEVER to remove that choice, well, that isn't too cool.

I just don't know how someone could do it since "we are all broke"

i think i am just being self centered...

qh4dotcom
10-14-2009, 10:01 PM
Valuable experience? For what? It's an unproductive job

jkr
10-14-2009, 10:24 PM
"networking"?

pluto
10-14-2009, 10:35 PM
The govt. can have unpaid interns for "education" but not private enterprise?


YouTube - Pelosi's Double Standard on the Minimum Wage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pFC3LKMIQo)

BlackTerrel
10-15-2009, 12:15 AM
Valuable experience? For what? It's an unproductive job

Let the person who wants to take the job decide that then - not the government. Personally I would love to work for Mark Cuban for 3 months, paid or not. Especially when I was younger.

jbrace
10-15-2009, 12:24 AM
so what about unpaid government internships? For example, working for a congressman? Anyone know how they get around this?

Brian4Liberty
10-15-2009, 11:36 AM
I understand the view that unpaid internships are rapacious exploitation

It is a taking advantage of other people. That is truly the root of all evil.

Who is going to take the unpaid internship job at McDonalds?

jbrace
10-15-2009, 11:44 AM
Doesn't it come down to the individual and what they want? If they feel that doing an internship will better than selves and allow more doors to open, then, shouldn't they be allowed to do so? Well, as long as anyone not holding a gun to their head to do it.

silverhandorder
10-15-2009, 11:57 AM
Who is going to take the unpaid internship job at McDonalds?

No one.

John E
10-15-2009, 12:00 PM
Mark Cuban is only interested in what is good for Mark Cuban. He appears to be an advocate for everything that will increase his stock portfolio.

gls
10-15-2009, 12:07 PM
Doesn't it come down to the individual and what they want? If they feel that doing an internship will better than selves and allow more doors to open, then, shouldn't they be allowed to do so? Well, as long as anyone not holding a gun to their head to do it.

Wait, are you advocating freedom and individual responsibility? Such radical concepts have no place in the new America. After all, some idiot might let himself be taken advantage of!

Brian4Liberty
10-15-2009, 12:07 PM
Doesn't it come down to the individual and what they want? If they feel that doing an internship will better than selves and allow more doors to open, then, shouldn't they be allowed to do so? Well, as long as anyone not holding a gun to their head to do it.

Of course there shouldn't be a law about it. At the same time, if someone comes to your door and says, "I want to build my lawn-mowing business, can I mow your lawn for free?", are you going to let him mow it for free? How many times will you let him mow it for free? Would you feel any responsibility to pay him?

constituent
10-15-2009, 12:12 PM
When I was in College, internships were paid, much better than minimum wage. I have also worked at a company where they bragged that they could get the best and brightest to work for them for free. Their basic philosophy was to milk interns/employees for all they could, and if they could get away with paying nothing, they would. They were scum.

Indeed.

erowe1
10-15-2009, 12:15 PM
Next they'll be stopping people from being allowed to volunteer their time at hospitals. Or are they already doing that too? I haven't been paying attention.

jbrace
10-15-2009, 12:25 PM
Of course there shouldn't be a law about it. At the same time, if someone comes to your door and says, "I want to build my lawn-mowing business, can I mow your lawn for free?", are you going to let him mow it for free? How many times will you let him mow it for free? Would you feel any responsibility to pay him?

The only reason a rational being would enter into a agreement like this, is if it will better himself. The person want's to build his lawn moving business. At some point the owner of the lawn mowing business is going to ask for payment, if he's doing a good job, and if he's not he will take his skills to someone else that will pay. That's the basis of of a free- market. If someone takes advantage of him that's his fault and government can't protect people from their own fallacy's.

Brian4Liberty
10-15-2009, 01:24 PM
The only reason a rational being would enter into a agreement like this, is if it will better himself. The person want's to build his lawn moving business. At some point the owner of the lawn mowing business is going to ask for payment, if he's doing a good job, and if he's not he will take his skills to someone else that will pay. That's the basis of of a free- market. If someone takes advantage of him that's his fault and government can't protect people from their own fallacy's.

You are putting all of the responsibility on the person who is being taken advantage of. The person who takes advantage bears no responsibility?

The only reason a rational human being willingly gets taken advantage of is when they are desperate. The powers that be want us all to be desperate, and thus easier to take advantage of.

Taking advantage of other people is truly the root of most of our problems. Bernie Madoff took advantage of others. Goldman Sachs and AIG took advantage of others. The Federal Reserve system takes advantage of others. Much warfare is nothing more than taking advantage of a bunch of desperate or brainwashed people. Needless to say, killing and stealing is the extreme in taking advantage of others.

silverhandorder
10-15-2009, 01:33 PM
No Bernie Madoff committed fraud. Get it right. Desperation has nothing to do with people entering into voluntary contract.

erowe1
10-15-2009, 01:43 PM
You are putting all of the responsibility on the person who is being taken advantage of. The person who takes advantage bears no responsibility?

Responsibility for what? The person taking the internship wants to be taken advantage of in that way, that's why their offering. And it's their right to do so.

Likewise, the intern is taking advantage of the opportunity being offered by the company just as much as the company is taking advantage of what is being offered by the intern. Both parties enter an agreement where they believe they are made better off. It's the same with jobs. When I am out looking for my next job, I want to find an employer who wants to take advantage of me just as I want to take advantage of them. Taking advantage of other people is a goal in almost all free economic exchanges. And it's a wonderful thing.

Brian4Liberty
10-15-2009, 01:48 PM
No Bernie Madoff committed fraud. Get it right. Desperation has nothing to do with people entering into voluntary contract.

I said desperation was why someone would willingly enter into a bad arrangement. That doesn't mean that fraud is not just another form of taking advantage of someone else.

Madoff both committed fraud and took advantage of others.

Brian4Liberty
10-15-2009, 01:54 PM
Taking advantage of other people is a goal in almost all free economic exchanges. And it's a wonderful thing.

Let's not argue semantics. You know what I mean. The more common use of the phrase "taking advantage" is a negative one.

Free, equitable and mutually beneficial trade is the goal. Yes, that's a very situational thing, but if you are ripping people off, it leads to where we are today.

erowe1
10-15-2009, 02:01 PM
Let's not argue semantics. You know what I mean. The more common use of the phrase "taking advantage" is a negative one.


Well, let's try to use our movement to take away the negative connotations that are given to wonderful things like that. It's because of the kind of thinking that calls "taking advantage" something bad that we now have governments interfering with a person's right to offer their labor below minimum wage, and now their right to have an unpaid internship as well.

Brian4Liberty
10-15-2009, 02:31 PM
governments interfering with a person's right to offer their labor below minimum wage, and now their right to have an unpaid internship as well.

Absolutely. No need for government or laws to be involved.

amy31416
10-15-2009, 02:51 PM
I was having a discussion with a friend who wants to learn HPLC, and a 2-day training course costs $1,000. Why would it not be a great idea for this guy to save the $1,000, gain experience and also provide a benefit to the institution that would take him on as an intern?

Both parties benefit, and both parties entered into a voluntary agreement. What's the problem?

Brian4Liberty
10-15-2009, 03:07 PM
I was having a discussion with a friend who wants to learn HPLC, and a 2-day training course costs $1,000. Why would it not be a great idea for this guy to save the $1,000, gain experience and also provide a benefit to the institution that would take him on as an intern?

Both parties benefit, and both parties entered into a voluntary agreement. What's the problem?

Putting aside government interference issues, it's up to him. A mutually beneficial trade. I might ask him to do a calculation on that. How long is the internship? If he would be happy to work for say, $10/hr, the $1000 training fee would equate to 100 hours of free intern work. Since he is gaining real world experience, it might be worth it to him to work a little longer. I would advise him to not commit to more than 120 hours free work. Any more than that unpaid and he isn't getting a very good deal. Of course, it's all up to him.

BlackTerrel
10-15-2009, 04:25 PM
Putting aside government interference issues, it's up to him. A mutually beneficial trade. I might ask him to do a calculation on that. How long is the internship? If he would be happy to work for say, $10/hr, the $1000 training fee would equate to 100 hours of free intern work. Since he is gaining real world experience, it might be worth it to him to work a little longer. I would advise him to not commit to more than 120 hours free work. Any more than that unpaid and he isn't getting a very good deal. Of course, it's all up to him.

But that's the whole issue. He can't do that legally. Government says "nope - you have to go to school".

axiomata
10-15-2009, 04:26 PM
“The law says that interns have to be paid unless they are perfoming work that is of no value to the organization; ie., helps them in some way but we get no benefit from their work.

I can't think of any internship that is of no value to an organization. Even if the intern is just fetching coffee, it is of value since the full time employees don't have to get their own coffee, and can continue to work in a valuable manner.

jmdrake
10-15-2009, 04:38 PM
Huh? Mark Cuban's lawyers told him that? Law firms offer unpaid internships all of the time. I know, I'm in law school. Anyway there's a "creative" way around this. He could:

1) Call them "unpaid blogger" positions, since that's essentially what they are.

2) Offer to pay them off the ad revenue. I don't buy the "it would cost us more to generate ad revenue" argument. Just let everyone sign up for their own Google ad account. Bloggers do that all the time.

His HR person must not be very creative.

sofia
10-15-2009, 08:54 PM
this makes perfect sense...

you see, if a young man or woman is prevented from learning a useful skill or trade through internship.....he has a better chance of one day becoming a ward of the state...to be cared for by our benevolent government.