TIME-Searching for Whitopia: America's Booming White Enclaves

[bobbyw24]

Monday, Oct. 12, 2009
America's Booming White Enclaves
By Randy James

Traveling some 27,000 miles, African-American journalist Rich Benjamin roamed the U.S. from 2007 to 2009 exploring a major demographic shift that is attracting remarkably little attention — the flight of white residents from cities and integrated suburbs into cloistered, racially homogeneous enclaves. Tidy communities such as St. George, Utah, and Coeur d'Alene, Idaho — places Benjamin calls Whitopias — have grown at triple the rate of America's cities in recent years, raising troubling questions about the country's multiracial cohesion. The Stanford literature Ph.D. chronicled his adventure in a new book, Searching for Whitopia: An Improbable Journey to the Heart of White America, and spoke with TIME about what he found.
(Read "Resisting School Integration in Savannah.")

Let's start with the title of your book — what is a Whitopia, exactly? It seems to be more than just a place where a lot of white people live.
Absolutely. A Whitopia has three things. First, it has posted more than 6% population growth since 2000. The second thing is that the majority of that growth — upwards of 90% — comes from white migrants. The third thing a Whitopia has is an ineffable social charm — a pleasant look and feel.
(Read "A Brief History of the NAACP.")

You say that many Whitopias offer a high quality of life and tend to perform well on those "Best Places to Live" lists that run in magazines. Do you think people are also drawn to these places specifically for their whiteness?
The major draw to Whitopia is that they're safe communities with good public schools and beautiful natural resources. Those qualities are subconsciously inseparable from race in many Americans' minds. For some people, race is a major role, and they said so to my face, but most of the Whitopians I encountered aren't intentionally practicing racial discrimination or self-segregation.

You say Whitopias can form even in the middle of diverse cities. How is that possible?
People don't realize that diversity isn't the same as integration. Blacks and whites in New York, where I live, are as segregated today as in 1910 [based on a sociologists' segregation index that measures how much contact people of differing races have with one another.]

What is the danger Whitopias pose to America as a whole?
You can call me old-fashioned, but I'm an integrationist. A democracy can't function at its optimum unless all members are integrated as full members.

A community full of like-minded people tends to enforce their own view of the world and close off opposing viewpoints. You can go to parties in New York City where the liberal smugness is intolerable because they're only hearing liberal viewpoints. On the Whitopian conservative side, it's spinning out of control. Look at the tea-bagger movement, where people are concerned their taxes are going to be wasted on minorities and illegal immigrants. Same with the movement that says [President] Obama is not a citizen. (See pictures of the tea-party protests.)

So how can we avoid the threat of the racial Balkanization that you describe?
We have a golden opportunity now. If I were an elected leader, I would say we have $800 billion in stimulus money that could rebuild America. We don't want to build communities in such a way that continues segregation. After World War II, President Eisenhower built highways and gave incentives to homeowners that gave white suburbanites an advantage. It left us with segregation for decades to come. Now we have an opportunity to get it right.

Are there any places that are getting it right now? That serve as a model for what you'd like to see?
There are communities around the country that get it right. Maplewood, N.J., has all the attributes of a Whitopia — high property values, great public schools, neighborliness — and yet it's also integrated and very diverse.

What surprised you about the communities you spent time in?
I was caught off-guard by the level of hostility to immigration reform in many of these communities and by how concerned many are by taxes — they believe taxes are too high. But I was also caught off-guard by how pleasant an experience it turned out to be, the personable warmth that greeted me in many cases.

And you were surprised by how much you enjoyed golf.
I was. [Laughs.] I feel like golf courses are the seductive emblem of Whitopia, and I didn't think I could get the essence of the place without learning myself. What I thought was a chore turned out to be a labor of love.

Tell me about the time you spent with white separatists in Idaho.
I just stumbled upon it. There's a religious sect called Christian Identity, which is a religious arm of the Aryan Nations. When I was in northern Idaho, I sat in on a three-day retreat and had some fascinating conversations. It was just a bizarre experience.

You, a black man, sat in on a white-separatist retreat. How did that go over?
They were curious and shocked they had found a black man on their premises. A lot of the members of the church took pains to explain to me the difference between white supremacy and white separatism. They said, "We don't think we're better than you; we just want to be separate from you."
(Read "What Berlusconi's Obama 'Jokes' Say About Italy.")

We see that tendency to divide ourselves into identity groups in places all over the world, it seems, whether it's by race or religion or political view. Is it simply human nature?
I just reject that argument. People in Whitopia would say, "Hey, Rich, birds of a feather flock together. What's the big deal?" Our government and businesses across the country make decisions every day that perpetuate segregation. When you say homes need to be built on a 1-acre lot, when you say apartment renters can't live in your community — these concrete policies are what contribute to segregation. It's not in our biology, and it's not natural. We're a great country — we've overcome some thorny problems in our past, and we're better than that.



http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1929729,00.html

[bobbyw24]

Miller McCune
Re-crafting the United States as Disunited Duchies

By: Lewis Beale print Print

In Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, where 95 percent of the population is white, Rich Benjamin saw more Confederate flags than black people. Not that Benjamin was looking for suggestions of racism, but in his forthcoming book, Searching for Whitopia: An Improbable Journey to the Heart of White America (Hyperion, Oct. 6), he was trying to discover why some of the fastest-growing areas in America are also the most Caucasian.

"There's a long-term harm when Americans accept balkanization as a way of life," says Benjamin, who is an African American. "Segregation can appear to allay social tensions, but it worsens them in the long run. Optimal democracies require more than voting; they require social integration and involvement."

Benjamin defines Whitopias as towns that are much whiter than the nation as a whole, which means they are more than 75 percent Caucasian. He looked at areas with a population growth of more than 6 percent since 2000, in which the growth was 90 percent white. Then he set out to Forsyth County, Ga., (98,000 people, 684 of them black), St. George, Utah, Coeur d'Alene and other vanilla outposts to find out why folks were moving there.

"There are forces that push people out [of cities and inner suburbs], like diversity and crumbling infrastructure and high home prices," Benjamin says. "And there are pull factors, like more home for your dollar [in the whitopias], beautiful natural amenities and safety, and the perceived comfort that comes with homogeneity."

Benjamin is not the first to describe this phenomenon. In his 2008 book The Big Sort, journalist Bill Bishop detailed how Americans have been parceling themselves out into increasingly homogeneous communities in which everyone votes for the same political party, goes to the same church and holds the same values.

This situation, Bishop says, has its good and bad points. "The good part is you get this incredible variety from place to place; places zoom off into their own cultural trajectories. But what happens is people lose touch with those who disagree with them. What happens is a nation incapable of compromise; you have this kind of national stalemate."

Both Bishop and Benjamin trace this to the 1960s. That was a time when, Bishop writes, "Americans lost their sense of a nation, by accident, in the sweeping economic and cultural shifts that took place." And, Benjamin adds, "once the courts demanded racial integration, many whites fled to the suburbs."

Now that many of those inner suburbs have become increasingly minority, a significant number of whites have fled further out to what Benjamin refers to as "exurban" counties like Forsyth (an hour's drive north of Atlanta), which are 83 percent non-Hispanic white.

Yet Benjamin says he found "racism without racists" in these towns.

"I very much believe we do have structural racism in our communities, yet we don't have racists. The good news is we don't have interpersonal racism. But structural racism is harder to attack."

Benjamin also notes that a significant proportion of the people moving to these white enclaves are older folks with specific fears and agendas. And the Obama presidency has only heightened those qualms and, in some cases, brought out nativist impulses.
"When you look at the tea bag protests, and the birther movement, this is an existential crisis facing conservative white Americans," Benjamin says. "They don't want to expand government dependence, and they link big government to city people and minorities who are perceived to be on the dole. These Americans are fearing where the country is going economically, racially and government-wise."

That 40 percent of Americans under 24 are non-white, and that whites will no longer be in the majority by 2042, only serves to make this unease more palpable. So in the near future "there may be a democracy gap where older whites, who are more inclined to vote, have the power to determine the outcome

http://miller-mccune.com/culture_society/re-crafting-the-united-states-as-disunited-duchies-1478

[Lovecraftian4Paul]

Watch the liberal establishment try to portray this as a bad thing, when no one is hurting anyone else by moving to different communities.

[bobbyw24]

Watch the liberal establishment try to portray this as a bad thing, when no one is hurting anyone else by moving to different communities.

Liberals tend to have double standards on this issue.

I think it's ironic that most of the hardcore white liberals I know live in areas that are at least 90% white. They tell me they live there only because the area is a low crime area and has good schools--it has nothing to do with race.

[constituent]

lol, and when "whites" move into "minority" neighborhoods it's called "gentrification." What's a white man supposed to do?

[constituent]

They tell me they live there only because the area is a low crime area and has good schools--it has nothing to do with race.

Until that "nice black family" moves in next door.

[specsaregood]

//

[Elwar]

collectivist

[SelfTaught]

lol, and when "whites" move into "minority" neighborhoods it's called "gentrification." What's a white man supposed to do?

This.

And that's what it's all about. Diversity is more about payback than equality. White people living in the present are made to feel guilty for crimes committed by white people of the past. Somehow, there's harm done when whites choose to live amongst each other rather than places containing minorities. How ridiculous is that?

[BenIsForRon]

This.

And that's what it's all about. Diversity is more about payback than equality. White people living in the present are made to feel guilty for crimes committed by white people of the past. Somehow, there's harm done when whites choose to live amongst each other rather than places containing minorities. How ridiculous is that?

It's bad if it's done solely because of race. Of course, nowadays, it's more about crime rates and such. But those high crime rates are caused in part from the rapid white flight from the cities, which basically pulled the economic rug out from under the poor black people.

There are entire suburbs full of black people, and the same for whites. It's because we still don't feel comfortable around each other, which probably spurs from an underlying distrust. The problem is that this distrust can be exploited by those in power to cause chaos in bad economic times (see: 1930's germany).

I'm not saying that the government should do anything, I'm just saying only bad things can come from it. Besides, why would you want to cut your self off from an entire subsection of humanity, what do you stand to gain from doing so?

[SelfTaught]

It's bad if it's done solely because of race. Of course, nowadays, it's more about crime rates and such. But those high crime rates are caused in part from the rapid white flight from the cities, which basically pulled the economic rug out from under the poor black people.

Crime and race can be related. Crime rates are higher or lower than the average depending on race. Statistically, blacks commit more crimes than other races. Does this mean blacks are inherently criminal? No, it just means for any number of reasons, blacks commit more crimes. So a white person, knowing this fact, will choose a white neighborhod over black neighborhood. Even black pizza delivery guys will avoid black neighborhoods because they know that they will more likely be robbed in black neighborhoods rather than white neighborhoods. Does this mean they don't like black people? No, they just know the probabilities of getting robbed using race as a characteristic. Race can be used as a proxy for judging other variables of interest.

And, you have that third sentence backwards. High crime rates aren't caused by white flight from cities. White flight IS CAUSED by high crime rates in cities. And it's not white crime. If it was white crime black people would flee the city.

[BenIsForRon]

And, you have that third sentence backwards. High crime rates aren't caused by white flight from cities. White flight IS CAUSED by high crime rates in cities. And it's not white crime. If it was white crime black people would flee the city.

I think it was more of a perceived threat than an actual threat. Of course, when businesses quit spending money in the cities, and instead invested in strip malls closer to the suburbs, the urban situation deteriorated much more quickly. I believe, if whites had generally stayed in the cities and opened businesses in the black neighborhoods, the economic and crime situations in urban areas would be much better.

[SelfTaught]

Of course, when businesses quit spending money in the cities, and instead invested in strip malls closer to the suburbs, the urban situation deteriorated much more quickly. I believe, if whites had generally stayed in the cities and opened businesses in the black neighborhoods, the economic and crime situations in urban areas would be much better.

Maybe they would make more money investing in the suburbs, what's wrong with that. Blacks given that chance would do the same thing. They don't have any obligation to stay just to maintain jobs for others. Again, you speak as if white people owed black people anything.

[Dunedain]

So even with the coordinated push for "diversity" in media and government and private industry WE THE PEOPLE are still self-segregating? Darn human nature getting in the way of communist utopia...foiled again!

[andrewh817]

Monday, Oct. 12, 2009
e see that tendency to divide ourselves into identity groups in places all over the world, it seems, whether it's by race or religion or political view. Is it simply human nature?
I just reject that argument. People in Whitopia would say, "Hey, Rich, birds of a feather flock together. What's the big deal?" Our government and businesses across the country make decisions every day that perpetuate segregation. When you say homes need to be built on a 1-acre lot, when you say apartment renters can't live in your community — these concrete policies are what contribute to segregation. It's not in our biology, and it's not natural. We're a great country — we've overcome some thorny problems in our past, and we're better than that.



http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1929729,00.html

Right, I think a lot of people confuse human nature with societal tendencies. There's not a definition for human nature because it doesn't really exist..... only human behavior which varies based on environment and personal experience.

[mconder]

This guy demonstrates the intolerance for other viewpoints that collectivism inherently demands as the collectivist is only concerned with consensus and can not tolerate someone who's viewpoints will not bend with the winds of the Hegelian dialog. It's all about the dialectic and how it's used to strong arm everyone into submission to the greater machine of world society.

[Brian4Liberty]

Flight from certain areas is often based on a very direct and real statistic: the number of gunshots heard at night...

[BenIsForRon]

Maybe they would make more money investing in the suburbs, what's wrong with that. Blacks given that chance would do the same thing. They don't have any obligation to stay just to maintain jobs for others. Again, you speak as if white people owed black people anything.

It's not about owing anybody anything, it's about making the conscious choice to keep a decent inner city instead of doing this:

http://www.csmonitor.com/slideshows/durableSlideshows/suburbanSprawl/slide1.jpg

[constituent]

http://www.csmonitor.com/slideshows/durableSlideshows/suburbanSprawl/slide1.jpg

What do you have against microprocessors?

Oh wait... nevermind.

[Eric Arthur Blair]

The whole of America was a ''whitopia'' up until 1965.

[heavenlyboy34]

It's bad if it's done solely because of race. Of course, nowadays, it's more about crime rates and such. But those high crime rates are caused in part from the rapid white flight from the cities, which basically pulled the economic rug out from under the poor black people.

There are entire suburbs full of black people, and the same for whites. It's because we still don't feel comfortable around each other, which probably spurs from an underlying distrust. The problem is that this distrust can be exploited by those in power to cause chaos in bad economic times (see: 1930's germany).

I'm not saying that the government should do anything, I'm just saying only bad things can come from it. Besides, why would you want to cut your self off from an entire subsection of humanity, what do you stand to gain from doing so?


Speak for yourself. I'm comfortable around black people, as long as they respect my individual rights-same as any other color of people. :cool:

[bobbyw24]

The White City

"Among the media, academia and within planning circles, there’s a generally standing answer to the question of what cities are the best, the most progressive and best role models for small and mid-sized cities. The standard list includes Portland, Seattle, Austin, Minneapolis, and Denver. In particular, Portland is held up as a paradigm, with its urban growth boundary, extensive transit system, excellent cycling culture, and a pro-density policy. These cities are frequently contrasted with those of the Rust Belt and South, which are found wanting, often even by locals, as “cool” urban places.

But look closely at these exemplars and a curious fact emerges. If you take away the dominant Tier One cities like New York, Chicago and Los Angeles you will find that the “progressive” cities aren’t red or blue, but another color entirely: white.

In fact, not one of these “progressive” cities even reaches the national average for African American percentage population in its core county. Perhaps not progressiveness but whiteness is the defining characteristic of the group."

http://www.newgeography.com/files/whitecity1.png

The progressive paragon of Portland is the whitest on the list, with an African American population less than half the national average. It is America's ultimate White City. The contrast with other, supposedly less advanced cities is stark.

It is not just a regional thing, either. Even look just within the state of Texas, where Austin is held up as a bastion of right thinking urbanism next to sprawlvilles like Dallas-Ft. Worth and Houston.

http://www.newgeography.com/files/whitecity2.png

Again, we see that Austin is far whiter than either Dallas-Ft. Worth or Houston.

This raises troubling questions about these cities. Why is it that progressivism in smaller metros is so often associated with low numbers of African Americans? Can you have a progressive city properly so-called with only a disproportionate handful of African Americans in it? In addition, why has no one called these cities on it?

As the college educated flock to these progressive El Dorados, many factors are cited as reasons: transit systems, density, bike lanes, walkable communities, robust art and cultural scenes. But another way to look at it is simply as White Flight writ large. Why move to the suburbs of your stodgy Midwest city to escape African Americans and get criticized for it when you can move to Portland and actually be praised as progressive, urban and hip? Many of the policies of Portland are not that dissimilar from those of upscale suburbs in their effects. Urban growth boundaries and other mechanisms raise land prices and render housing less affordable exactly the same as large lot zoning and building codes that mandate brick and other expensive materials do. They both contribute to reducing housing affordability for historically disadvantaged communities. Just like the most exclusive suburbs.

This lack of racial diversity helps explain why urban boosters focus increasingly on international immigration as a diversity measure. Minneapolis, Portland and Austin do have more foreign born than African Americans, and do better than Rust Belt cities on that metric, but that's a low hurdle to jump. They lack the diversity of a Miami, Houston, Los Angeles or a host of other unheralded towns from the Texas border to Las Vegas and Orlando. They even have far fewer foreign born residents than many suburban counties of America's major cities.

READ MORE

http://www.newgeography.com/content/001110-the-white-city

[Icymudpuppy]

Seattle and Portland both have very high Asian Populations. Primarily Japanese, Chinese, Korean, and Filipino.

[Naraku]

Somehow, there's harm done when whites choose to live amongst each other rather than places containing minorities. How ridiculous is that?

It's only ridiculous to people who fail to understand sociology.


Flight from certain areas is often based on a very direct and real statistic: the number of gunshots heard at night...

If drugs were legalized there would most likely be far less crime.

[krazy kaju]

Tidy communities such as St. George, Utah, and Coeur d'Alene, Idaho — places Benjamin calls Whitopias — have grown at triple the rate of America's cities in recent years, raising troubling questions about the country's multiracial cohesion.

That can't be because these "Whitopias" have lower taxes and less onerous regulations than cities, can it?


The major draw to Whitopia is that they're safe communities with good public schools and beautiful natural resources. Those qualities are subconsciously inseparable from race in many Americans' minds.

Prove it.


For some people, race is a major role, and they said so to my face, but most of the Whitopians I encountered aren't intentionally practicing racial discrimination or self-segregation.

They aren't practicing segregation at all. They're escaping violent, corporatist, high tax, high regulation cities.


You say Whitopias can form even in the middle of diverse cities. How is that possible?
People don't realize that diversity isn't the same as integration. Blacks and whites in New York, where I live, are as segregated today as in 1910 [based on a sociologists' segregation index that measures how much contact people of differing races have with one another.]

If he can find examples of rich blacks living in the ghetto, I will give this idea some credence. Till then, ciao.


Look at the tea-bagger movement, where people are concerned their taxes are going to be wasted on minorities and illegal immigrants. Same with the movement that says [President] Obama is not a citizen.

Ahh, the fresh taste of logical fallacies. Most attendees of Tea Parties do not believe in the ridiculous "birther" claims. Most are not concerned with "taxes going to minorities and illegal immigrants," they are concerned with Big Government in general and large debt and deficits in particular.


If I were an elected leader, I would say we have $800 billion in stimulus money that could rebuild America.

Maybe you should stop straw-manning the liberty movement and instead realize that any President spending $800 billion on anything in addition to a record-large budget with a deficit that is three times larger than last year's record-setting deficit will be protested extensively.


We don't want to build communities in such a way that continues segregation. After World War II, President Eisenhower built highways and gave incentives to homeowners that gave white suburbanites an advantage. It left us with segregation for decades to come. Now we have an opportunity to get it right.

So more central planning will fix the problem that central planning created? Right...


Are there any places that are getting it right now? That serve as a model for what you'd like to see?
There are communities around the country that get it right. Maplewood, N.J., has all the attributes of a Whitopia — high property values, great public schools, neighborliness — and yet it's also integrated and very diverse.

That's rather funny - wouldn't Maplewood, New Jersey be a Blacktopia? After all, blacks form 13% of the population, but in Maplewood 1/3rd of residents are black.


I was caught off-guard by the level of hostility to immigration reform

Translation: "I was surprised that citizens were offended that others were violating the laws of their country."


in many of these communities and by how concerned many are by taxes — they believe taxes are too high.

This can't have something to do with the fact that we have a 40% marginal tax rate in the United States, can it? This can't have something to do with the fact that the majority of the tax burden of the US falls on the wealthy and that these communities this guy was investigating were wealthy?


But I was also caught off-guard by how pleasant an experience it turned out to be, the personable warmth that greeted me in many cases.

Translation: "I harbor racist views and I did not think that whites could be pleasant."

[libertarian4321]

The White City

The standard list includes Portland, Seattle, Austin, Minneapolis, and Denver.

Austin is a "white city?" Really?

I can only assume the author has never been to Austin. Non-hispanic whites make up just over 50% of Austin's population. Austin may not have a large black population, but it is far from "white"- it has large numbers of hispanics and asians.

I think you'll find that Denver is similarly non-white.

[heavenlyboy34]

Liberals tend to have double standards on this issue.

I think it's ironic that most of the hardcore white liberals I know live in areas that are at least 90% white. They tell me they live there only because the area is a low crime area and has good schools--it has nothing to do with race.


The hypocrisy of elitist "intellectuals" is amusing, yet sad, isn't it?

[dannno]

Buick Enclave


http://www.carbodydesign.com/archive/2006/01/16-buick-enclave-concept/Buick%20Enclave%20Concept%206-lg.jpg

[Andrew-Austin]

Why does everything have to be reported with a focus on race? For christ's sake shut the fuck up you rag of a mag TIME.

You don't think blacks have any kind of tendency to flock together?

[Dieseler]

I'm sorry, I mean I'm white or I'm sorry I'm white.
Fuck it.

[SelfTaught]

It's only ridiculous to people who fail to understand sociology.


Sociology is the study of bullshit. You were responding to a post where I stated "Somehow, there's harm done when whites choose to live amongst each other rather than places containing minorities. How ridiculous is that?" So are you suggesting that if I were to choose to not live among blacks and mexicans, somehow I'm doing harm.

I prefer asian women because I'm asian myself. Do I harm white, black, and hispanic women because I prefer asians? What I do is an act of preference. I prefer not to hang around gay people. Does that mean I do them harm?

I guess from a sociological standpoint I'm some sort of retard. But I believe in free society, where people voluntarily associate or exchange with others for ANY reason. If I choose not to associate with certain groups of people, that is MY CHOICE. You may make some case that diversity is beneficial for the greater good of the community. Fuck the community. I look out for me first, then I'll consider whether the community is even worth helping.

[BlackTerrel]

If drugs were legalized there would most likely be far less crime.

The amount of social good that would come about by legalizing drugs (especially) marijuana is immeasurable. Unfortunately - it is a long way off.

[Naraku]

Sociology is the study of bullshit.

Sociology is the study of society and how it functions. You can call that bullshit if you like, but it is nothing more than studying human behavior and thought. It's psychology on a grander scale.


You were responding to a post where I stated "Somehow, there's harm done when whites choose to live amongst each other rather than places containing minorities. How ridiculous is that?" So are you suggesting that if I were to choose to not live among blacks and mexicans, somehow I'm doing harm.

That's exactly what I'm suggesting. Racial separatism is a basis of internal strife. Such strife could cause you direct harm so it is in fact in your interest.


I prefer asian women because I'm asian myself. Do I harm white, black, and hispanic women because I prefer asians?

You should not prefer a woman because of any physical characteristic. A person's appearance is meaningless in a long-term relationship.


What I do is an act of preference. I prefer not to hang around gay people. Does that mean I do them harm?

Yes in a sense. Like what I said about racial separatism it forms a basis for internal strife.


But I believe in free society, where people voluntarily associate or exchange with others for ANY reason. If I choose not to associate with certain groups of people, that is MY CHOICE. You may make some case that diversity is beneficial for the greater good of the community. Fuck the community. I look out for me first, then I'll consider whether the community is even worth helping.

Self-centered behavior only does you harm in the end, if not physical then emotional.

[getch36]

More nonsense from TIME..........

[ChooseLiberty]

Was there a list of all the main whitopia cities?

[jmdrake]

Monday, Oct. 12, 2009
America's Booming White Enclaves
By Randy James

Traveling some 27,000 miles, African-American journalist Rich Benjamin roamed the U.S. from 2007 to 2009 exploring a major demographic shift that is attracting remarkably little attention — the flight of white residents from cities and integrated suburbs into cloistered, racially homogeneous enclaves. Tidy communities such as St. George, Utah, and Coeur d'Alene, Idaho — places Benjamin calls Whitopias — have grown at triple the rate of America's cities in recent years, raising troubling questions about the country's multiracial cohesion. The Stanford literature Ph.D. chronicled his adventure in a new book, Searching for Whitopia: An Improbable Journey to the Heart of White America, and spoke with TIME about what he found.
(Read "Resisting School Integration in Savannah.")


Remarkably little attention? Did this guy fall off of a turnip truck?

[jmdrake]

Liberals tend to have double standards on this issue.

I think it's ironic that most of the hardcore white liberals I know live in areas that are at least 90% white. They tell me they live there only because the area is a low crime area and has good schools--it has nothing to do with race.

As an African American (and former liberal) I never had a problem with so called "white flight". (That's what it was called in the 1980s. LOL @ "whitopia". Sounds like a children's book. Maybe one written by E.B. White?) As long as there aren't any laws preventing people of other races moving in people should be able to "enclave" all they want. And no, I never had a "double standard" on the issue. I remember some radicals in college who were advocating for an "independent black state" and my reaction was "Are you nuts?"

[maqsur]

What do you have against microprocessors?

Oh wait... nevermind.

Nice one, that had me laughing.

[angelatc]

You can call me old-fashioned, but I'm an integrationist. A democracy can't function at its optimum unless all members are integrated as full members.

Where has this ever been true?

ANd if it is true, all the members have to produce something of value. Merely existing doesn't cut it.

[AutoDas]

Sociology is the study of society and how it functions. You can call that bullshit if you like, but it is nothing more than studying human behavior and thought. It's psychology on a grander scale.



That's exactly what I'm suggesting. Racial separatism is a basis of internal strife. Such strife could cause you direct harm so it is in fact in your interest.



You should not prefer a woman because of any physical characteristic. A person's appearance is meaningless in a long-term relationship.



Yes in a sense. Like what I said about racial separatism it forms a basis for internal strife.



Self-centered behavior only does you harm in the end, if not physical then emotional.

http://www.insidesocal.com/tomhoffarth/aw_jeez.jpg

[bobbyw24]

As an African American (and former liberal) I never had a problem with so called "white flight". (That's what it was called in the 1980s. LOL @ "whitopia". Sounds like a children's book. Maybe one written by E.B. White?) As long as there aren't any laws preventing people of other races moving in people should be able to "enclave" all they want. And no, I never had a "double standard" on the issue. I remember some radicals in college who were advocating for an "independent black state" and my reaction was "Are you nuts?"

Thanks for your well thought out input. I am friends with a lot of white liberals who say they want diversity/integration but not if it means having to live next to a person of color. That was what I meant by double standard.


As for being gregarious [wanting to associate with one's own kind] a lot of people are naturally that way-it does not necessarily mean that they are bigots. However, I do note that when my young children go out to play, they want to play with any person their size--irrespective of the other child's race/gender/hair color/eye color/religion, etc. . They just see another human being their size and want to play with them. They see no color and I will do my best to make sure that they stay that way.

[SelfTaught]

Sociology is the study of society and how it functions. You can call that bullshit if you like, but it is nothing more than studying human behavior and thought. It's psychology on a grander scale.



That's exactly what I'm suggesting. Racial separatism is a basis of internal strife. Such strife could cause you direct harm so it is in fact in your interest.



You should not prefer a woman because of any physical characteristic. A person's appearance is meaningless in a long-term relationship.



Yes in a sense. Like what I said about racial separatism it forms a basis for internal strife.



Self-centered behavior only does you harm in the end, if not physical then emotional.

If you're trying to make a case for voluntary segregation being harmful, I think you're doing a poor job. If I choose to voluntarily segregate myself, you may say I'm doing harm to myself, but so what? I own myself. I may choose to do heroin, a harmful drug, but I have the right to do it.

If you classify voluntary segregation as harmful to others, then would you agree that there should be punishment for choosing to do it? If all the white people in one neighborhood just up and left, would the black population be justified in self defense or forcefully preventing whites from moving out? Should they be punished by law?

After all, if some is trying to rob, rape, or kill me (forms of harm), I have a right to resist and use force if necessary to prevent physical damage or theft of property. If he is caught by law enforcement and found to be guilty, punishment in jail or fines is appropriate.

If you think voluntary segregation is harmful to others, then punishment or self defense is justified. I happen to disagree.

[gls]

I can't wait until the day that Time Magazine (and its ilk) finally goes out of business. Then all of these busybody, self-professed "intellectuals" will have to get real jobs. Unfortunately there will probably be a government bailout to prevent that from ever happening.

[jmdrake]

Thanks for your well thought out input. I am friends with a lot of white liberals who say they want diversity/integration but not if it means having to live next to a person of color. That was what I meant by double standard.


As for being gregarious [wanting to associate with one's own kind] a lot of people are naturally that way-it does not necessarily mean that they are bigots. However, I do note that when my young children go out to play, they want to play with any person their size--irrespective of the other child's race/gender/hair color/eye color/religion, etc. . They just see another human being their size and want to play with them. They see no color and I will do my best to make sure that they stay that way.

Ah. I got you. Yes what you've described is a double standard. If you ever get a chance to watch the PBS documentary of civil rights called "eyes on the prize" take not about when desegregation came to Boston. The same white Bostonians who loved Ted Kennedy when it was the south being desegregated were ready to lynch him then. And no, they were doing it because he was a rapist and murderer. (They re-elected him after the Mary Jo incident).

[Naraku]

If you're trying to make a case for voluntary segregation being harmful, I think you're doing a poor job. If I choose to voluntarily segregate myself, you may say I'm doing harm to myself, but so what? I own myself. I may choose to do heroin, a harmful drug, but I have the right to do it.

Having the right to do something isn't the same as being right in doing it.


If you classify voluntary segregation as harmful to others, then would you agree that there should be punishment for choosing to do it?

Not at all. You can't have laws against every behavior that can be harmful.


http://www.insidesocal.com/tomhoffarth/aw_jeez.jpg

I'm curious, what is your problem with what I said?