People with pre-existing conditions and who are sickly now...

[JXL78]

What is the libertarian response to this? Democrats bring this up all the time.

[yokna7]

Are you asking how these people should be taken care of?:confused:

[TonySutton]

How do you insure a car which still has damage from a previous accident?

[Deborah K]

Insurance competition across state lines, tort reform. Competition will include pre-existing conditions and lower rates.

The bill being voted on has neither of the above solutions.

[ClayTrainor]

Well, I for one donate a large portion of my income to this hospital. www.sickkids.ca. I would donate at least 50% more than i do, if i actually owned the right to my labor.

Perhaps the Dems can stop talking about government solutions to tax people to help the sick, which has proven to be a self-bankrupting method. Perhaps these individuals can actually try to help the sick, instead of just pretending they care, because they favor socialism. The only solution they have is to steal more money from others (tax).

[JXL78]

Are you asking how these people should be taken care of?:confused:

I'm asking for a common sense approach that brings down prices for people who need the help now.

This is a good article for those of us who are healthy. An approach that brings prices down when we will get sick ourselves in the future...
http://mises.org/freemarket_detail.aspx?control=279

I just want to see an answer to those who are in trouble right now. Do we owe them the freedom to not be taxed by the government? Do we allow their employers to pay them in gold without the 28% stick? etc?

[silverhandorder]

That is the whole idea of inssurance. It is a risk hedge. People with pre existing conditions automatically get denied. That is the point of inssurance. Sorry bad luck, had government not raised the costs of healthcare they could have paid out of pocket.

The people who are sickly now should have demanded better plans. Plans that stretch for 5 year periods or health savings accounts. It is a company's right to not want to do bussiness with you once they met all the obligations under their contract which btw renews every year.

Now what you were really asking is how to deal with emotional appeals that we can't let these people to die on the streets. Tell them pure and simple that if we pay for these people then some one else has to take their place. If they claim that you can help people with the most need and reduce fatalities tell them that you do not want government to define need. You want you and your doctor to voluntarily do so.

Try to make a comromise. Ask them to consider free market reforms that will lower costs and allow more people to participate in this way growing the industry efficiently. Ask them about taking away subsidies from big HMOs and allowing them to sink or swim on their own merits.

[JXL78]

How do you insure a car which still has damage from a previous accident?

I would personally agree but I'm trying to make friends with liberals on a different forum...lol

Just looking for intelligent articles out there...

[dannno]

The problem is once again corporate health insurance.

Since the plan at your work is subsidized, it is significantly cheaper to get full coverage through your employer. It costs about the same to get catastrophic coverage outside of your employer, which is the main reason why medical costs are so high.. Nobody pays them, they just have their insurance pay for it and insurance colludes with the medical industry.

So.... the reason why we have a problem with pre-existing conditions is because people buy their insurance through their company, and they may leave their company or get laid off at some point and have to switch coverage... If the government didn't subsidize corporate health insurance through tax subsidies, then people could just get their own insurance on the open market and they wouldn't be be dependent on insurance from their workplace.

[Epic]

People should help others charitably if that a subjective value they hold.

And if health care was a free market, then prices/insurance would be so low that these people would be able to afford care without special intervention.

[dannno]

So Post #9 takes care of all future pre-existing conditions.. but what about current pre-existing conditions? silverhandorder pretty much nailed it..

Insurance works off of risk. What is the risk that this person is going to get sick and need a payout? How much will that payout probably cost? That is how insurance works. When you already know that the person is going to need diabetes medication for the rest of their lives, and you already know how much it is going to cost, the ONLY way you could possibly work that into an insurance premium is to just add it right on top..

100% chance of getting diabetes, diabetes medication costs $160/month, so the premium goes up $160/month.. but why even go through that? It's just a waste.. the patient may as well pay for it themselves. Now the reason they can't afford it goes back to the corporate insurance.. EVERYBODY is fully covered and so nobody pays for medical care. You need the free market to anchor down prices through competition, and we don't have that now.. we have insurance companies colluding with the medical industry.

[TonySutton]

I would personally agree but I'm trying to make friends with liberals on a different forum...lol

Just looking for intelligent articles out there...

My point is that our current health insurance is not really insurance.

There are a number of things which need to happen in order to get real health insurance back where it needs to be.

1) End mandated employer coverage. Individual people need to purchase their own health insurance so it becomes more portable. This will also allow people to customize their policy to their lifestyle and personal needs.

2) Once people stop buying "cover everything" health insurance the costs will settle out and allow people who want a high deductible catastrophic policy get one at a reasonable rate.

3) Tort Reform

4) Increased competition will drive insurance and medical costs down.

[Deborah K]

I heard that 49% of doctors polled said they would quit if healthcare reform included a single-payer program.

This is going to make the underground economy aka blackmarket, the NEW free market.

[yokna7]

How do you insure a car which still has damage from a previous accident?

Death Panels? The ol' junkyard in the sky.

[yokna7]

I heard that 49% of doctors polled said they would quit if healthcare reform included a single-payer program.

This is going to make the underground economy aka blackmarket, the NEW free market.

Wait. 49% of the doctors in the United States would quit and work in the blackmarktet?

Deborahk! You just solved the healthcare crisis!!!!!!!;)

[silverhandorder]

I heard that 49% of doctors polled said they would quit if healthcare reform included a single-payer program.

This is going to make the underground economy aka blackmarket, the NEW free market.

It seems that there are multiple polls on everything. I seen a poll stating that as little as 5% will quit. I personally think the number that quit is not as important as the number who will never join because there is no incentive.

[Deborah K]

Wait. 49% of the doctors in the United States would quit and work in the blackmarktet?

Deborahk! You just solved the healthcare crisis!!!!!!!;)

49% of the doctors polled said they would quit. It will be up to us to get them to work in the new free market. ;)

[yokna7]

49% of the doctors polled said they would quit. It will be up to us to get them to work in the new free market. ;)

They will, how else will they afford to play golf so much? This is not the most rational solution to this problem, but with the expectations we have from Washingtion - Sabotage may be our only hope.:o

[Deborah K]

They will, how else will they afford to play golf so much? This is not the most rational solution to this problem, but with the expectations we have from Washingtion - Sabotage may be our only hope.:o

What IS the most "rational solution" given our current circumstances?

[RideTheDirt]

They will, how else will they afford to play golf so much? This is not the most rational solution to this problem, but with the expectations we have from Washingtion - Sabotage may be our only hope.:o
We don't need sabotage.We've got the Obama Administration...

[Deborah K]

We don't need sabotage.We've got the Obama Administration...

He means by going underground with our markets, which imo would be better than what Obamarama has in store for us...

[ClayTrainor]

He means by going underground with our markets, which imo would be better than what Obamarama has in store for us...

Here's a good article on the black-market clinics that have been popping up in Canada over the last few years.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/oct/05/canadas-black-market-clinics/

Here's a good excerpt


That's not the only health care battle in Canada. An American company is trying to use the North American Free Trade Agreement so it can invest in building a clinic in Vancouver. Technically, such health centers outside the government system are illegal in the Great White North. The L.A. Times reports that the U.S. company already has competitors that simply ignore the law. Black-market clinics run by Canadians have sprung up in several provinces to serve those sick of waiting in long lines for care. While they await a court decision, provincial governments unofficially look the other way.

[Deborah K]

Here's a good article on the black-market clinics that have been popping up in Canada over the last few years.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/oct/05/canadas-black-market-clinics/

Here's a good excerpt

Yeah, Canada is a joke. My father's family is Canadian. They killed my grandpa with their useless healthcare system. It's pretty pathetic when the animal clinics offer better care to your pet than you can get. :rolleyes:

I am ALL FOR a new FREE MARKET.

[ClayTrainor]

Yeah, Canada is a joke. My father's family is Canadian. They killed my grandpa with their useless healthcare system. It's pretty pathetic when the animal clinics offer better care to your pet than you can get. :rolleyes:

I am ALL FOR a new FREE MARKET.

Oh me too.

I actually avoid going to socialized clinics, because this is what happens every time i do...

I sit in a waiting room with like 20-30 other sick people, for about 2 hours. Finally, an over-worked and under-paid doctor will see me. I get the feeling he just wants me out of his office as fast as possible, and he's trying to rush my diagnosis. Finally, he prescribes some sort of regulated drug, in which i have to pay for. I guess forking over tens of thousands of dollars in taxes for health care every year, doesn't include my drugs! :mad: I really wish i could invest that money myself, without going to jail for it.

Our system blows, i hate it. I'm going to start looking for these black-market clinics, and perhaps go to my dogs vet next time i need some stitches.

[angelatc]

And if health care was a free market, then prices/insurance would be so low that these people would be able to afford care without special intervention.

This is it.

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

i shouldn't have to have health insurance just to pay for healthcare. car repair can cost a good sum, but at least it is manageable, the autoshop doesnt charge you 2k a day for your car to stay there

[Stary Hickory]

These people need to turn to charity. Charity along with a free market can solve problems far better than any government plan. In a government system these people and all like them are doomed from the very start.

People need to quit being so childish and asking these sorts of questions. Not every problem can be fixed. Life can be brutal, the world we live on is full of scarcity. The question I always ask is: Do you want to take a chidlike fairy tale approach to solving problems of the real world or do you want to use reason, logic, and common sense to alleviate as much suffering as possible.

I just get tired of these liberal statements like "What about the poor?", "what about disease?", "what about hunger?". All these are problems that are a result of living in reality, a real world with limitations. But what these morons do is attribute this to capitalism and then propose a magical system where we just steal from each other at gun point to fix everything.

Life does not work like that, it never has and never will. If you ask me th question of morality should stop people from embarking down that road, but if that is not enough logic dictates you let peope decide for themselves to engage in charity and let these people reach their ful potential and not rob them or oppress them.

There is no good health care in a poor country, yet socialism brings scarcity. You want a prosperous country where charity is actually an option. This only comes about as a result of free markets and free men and women working to overcome the scarcity in their world.

[torchbearer]

I wouldn't insure someone who is going to be a known loss from the beginning.
That would be like betting on a horse with a broken leg. You are going to lose money.
How can you operate a business that loses money, unless you get government money?