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scottincr
10-01-2007, 07:43 AM
I am helping my high school daughter with a book report on a book titled, A War Like No Other, written by Victor Davis Hanson. It is about how the Athenians and the Spartans fought the Peloponnesian war.

I have never been particularly interested in history, but I found this book thoroughly interesting and frightening because of the similarities of our present day circumstances.

Athens had 300 war ships, a democratic population of 300,000, a fortified port, 200 tribute paying subject states abroad and vast amounts of coined money. Sparta was land locked, had an army of 10,000 men; 5,000 of whom where not full citizens. They "had 250,000 inferiors and serfs, and a hegemony of neighboring communities, without any tradition of either seapower or a cosmopolitan culture."

The fight was assumed to be the final arbitrator contrasting values between cultural and political liberalism or a tough, insular conservatism. But a central theme, from a lengthy narrative written by a scholar, Thucydides, who traveled both sided and recorded the entire war, "is the use and abuse of power, and how it lurks behind men's professions of idealism and purported ideology".

During a 100 years of Athenian imperialism from 500 BC to 400 BC, Athens sought to remove oligarchs and impose democracy and " no ancient state made war more often than did fifth-century imperial Athens".

The 27 year Pelopennesion war financially bankrupted the Athenians and "it baffled Thucydides, that a Hellenistic civilization that had once given man so much now began to self destruct so quickly." One of the material reasons attributed to Athens loss against Sparta and its allies Corinth and Thebes is that in 415 BC Athens decided to invade a democratic Syracuse. Athens was like the Germany of WWII, which fought France and England , took on the US and tried to invade Russia. Hitler might have defeated or obtained a draw with any of the three powers individually or in succession, but never two much less three of the powers at the same time.

Secondly, by invading a Democratic Syracuse it weakened its long standing propaganda that its wars were in a large part ideological, taken on behalf of democratic peoples and their desire to live in democratic societies.

The parallels between a once wealthy US has significant domestic issues it needs to resolve, who is currently wasting its financial and human resources on a costly idealogical war being lead by leaders who have often been accused of having conflicting interests. The facts that we are losing or at best in a stalemate war of attrition in Afghanistan and Iraq and we are on a path with initiating another war with a third county Iran boarders insanity.

It is unfortunate that the intellectuals, advisors and leaders of our country are not taking the lessons from other historical periods and learning from them it is as if we are cursed and choose not to learn from the mistakes of other cultures throughout history.

RON PAUl is the only candidate who is seriouly looking at history and trying to change our countries policies to avoid the ruin of our country like the ruin of many other countires and cultures throughout history.

Omnis
10-01-2007, 08:13 AM
We can learn from history beyond Athens. We also have Rome, Britain, USSR, Germany, Japan, and, most importantly, our own country.

Politeia
10-01-2007, 09:04 AM
I am helping my high school daughter with a book report on a book titled, A War Like No Other, written by Victor Davis Hanson.

in that Victor Davis Hanson was one of the leading neocon ideologues (a.k.a "chickenhawks" and "laptop bombardiers") who provided intellectual "justification" for the Iraq war. He has since changed his mind, apparently, and even apologized in some form (though of course it hasn't cost him anything beyond a little embarrassment -- unlike the tens of thousands of Iraqis who've been slaughtered). I haven't followed him, really, only read about him frequently while following the news at Antiwar.com (http://www.antiwar.com). Try this search for some background:

http://www.google.com/search?as_q=Victor+Davis+Hanson&hl=en&num=20&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=antiwar.com&as_rights=&safe=images

Indeed, the United States would have much to learn from the histories of, especially, Athens and Rome. The Founders knew those histories, but for some curious reason, they are not taught any longer in the government-run schools. Hmm, I wonder why?

Ozwest
10-01-2007, 09:16 AM
This is all very interesting, but while your musing, could engage the Lincoln Continental into park and have a soda... During the meantime, consider the rest of the World ? They're scared shitless.

Politeia
10-01-2007, 09:20 AM
This is all very interesting, but while your musing, could engage the Lincoln Continental into park and have a soda... During the meantime, consider the rest of the World ? They're scared shitless.

Your point?

Ozwest
10-01-2007, 09:21 AM
I read the post again and overstepped. My apology.

scottincr
10-01-2007, 09:28 AM
Politeia,

Thanks for the post, I was not aware that Victor Hanson was a Neocon very informative info. Based on the content of the book, I would have thought he would have been a vocal opponent of the our ( the US's) military mis adventures. Given his breadth of historical knowledge and analysis of Athenians.

I printed out some of the articles for my daughter. They should be helpful.

Thanks.

Politeia
10-01-2007, 09:47 AM
... very informative info.

Antiwar.com is a great site; I read it most every day -- probably too much; it can be depressing, but if you want to keep up on The War (they're all the same War), that's the place.


Based on the content of the book, I would have thought he would have been a vocal opponent of the our ( the US's) military mis adventures. Given his breadth of historical knowledge and analysis of Athenians.

Yeah, isn't it funny how the most bloodthirsty "experts" are always the ones who've never been near a war themselves? I'm not sure what ought to be done with guys like this -- my religion does forbid me to "harbor ill will" -- but somehow, tenure at respectable institutions of "higher learning" doesn't seem quite right.

BTW, I'm careful not to use "our" unless I really do want to include myself. Conditioning the populace to identify with the criminal government's acts is one of the State's more clever tactics. Remember "What do you mean 'we', White Man?"

scottincr
10-04-2007, 07:20 AM
Victor,

I just finished your book and as person not particularly prone to reading history, I thoroughly enjoyed the book!

Your impressive knowledge and well written work gave me the confidence and impression that your knowledge of these historical imperial powers, leaders, their governments and their fates would provide you with relevant context from which to compare and contrast the path and leadership of our country the United States. As I read your book I made many notes of the similarities between Athens and the present day US and they are quite frightening.

As I finished the book I thought everyone needs to read this book! Our historically illiterate culture needs to learn about history and learn the lessons of these other great civilizations. People need to see the similarities between the modern day US and the fifth century Athenians. Probably a similar and predictable fate of the Roman Empire. It is only through learning of the lessons of the other civilizations can we look for ways not to repeat these glaring mistakes and prolong our privileged lifestyle.

I then looked at your website and read some of your published papers and I am shocked with your views given your knowledge. You are a pathetic shill and a propagandist for the Zionist oligarchs. Your support of the this phoney war on terror is shameful and you are a traitor to America!! When the shit hits the fan may you be disgraced by your peers and community!

Redeem yourself and join Scholars for 911, Truth and Justice at http://stj911.org.