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powerofreason
10-08-2009, 04:52 PM
A great article by Kevin Carson:


Any consideration of “intellectual property rights” must start from the understanding that such “rights” undermine genuine property rights and hence are illegitimate in terms of libertarian principle. Real, tangible property rights result from natural scarcity and follow as a matter of course from the attempt to maintain occupancy of physical property that cannot be possessed by more than one person at a time.

“Intellectual property,” on the other hand, creates artificial scarcity where it does not naturally exist and can only be enforced by invading real, tangible property and preventing the owner from using it in ways that violate the supposed intellectual property rights of others. As Stephan Kinsella points out, had a particularly gifted Cro-Magnon man been able to patent the building of log cabins, his heirs today would be entitled to prevent us from building cabins on our own land, with our own logs, until we paid whatever tribute they demanded.

The business model required by proprietary digital information is even more invasive of genuine property rights than traditional copyright law. The digital copyright regime in force under the terms of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), the WIPO Copyright Treaty, and the TRIPS provisions of the Uruguay Round of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT), focuses entirely on preventing one from using his own hard drive and other property as he sees fit. It is actually illegal, thanks to such legislation, to sell hardware capable of circumventing DRM (digital rights management) or to publicize the codes enabling someone to circumvent it. As Cory Doctorow points out, “It’s funny that in the name of protecting ‘intellectual property,’ big media companies are willing to do such violence to the idea of real property–arguing that since everything we own, from our t-shirts to our cars to our e-books, embody someone’s copyright, patent and trademark, that we’re basically just tenant farmers, living on the land of our gracious masters who’ve seen fit to give us a lease on our homes.”

All-pervasive DRM prevents the easy transfer of content between platforms, even when a CD or DVD buyer simply wants to play the content somewhere more convenient. And the DMCA legally prohibits circumventing such DRM, even when–again–the purchaser simply wants to facilitate his own use on a wider and more convenient variety of platforms.

The levels of invasiveness required by “intellectual property” in the digital age cannot be exaggerated. The intrusive and inconvenient DRM embedded in proprietary media, and the draconian legislation criminalizing technical means of circumvention, should make that clear. The logical tendency of the digital copyright regime was portrayed quite convincingly by Richard Stallman in a dystopian short story, “The Right to Read” (just Google it–it’s well worth your time).

Corporations rely on increasingly authoritarian legislation to capture value from proprietary information. Johann Soderberg compares the way photocopiers were monitored in the old USSR, to protect the power of elites in that country, to the way the means of digital reproduction are monitored in this country to protect corporate power. Privileged state-connected economic interests are becoming increasingly dependent on such controls. Unfortunately for them, such controls are becoming increasingly unenforceable thanks to BitTorrent, strong encryption, and proxy servers. Case in point: the “DeCSS uprising,” in which court injunctions against a code to hack DVD encryption met with the defiant publicizing of the code on blogs, mirror sites, and even T-shirts. The unenforceability of intellectual property rights undermines the business model prevalent among a major share of privileged state-connected firms.
Obsolete Business Model

In the old days, the immense value of physical assets was the primary structural support for corporate boundaries and in particular for the control of corporate hierarchies over human capital and other intangible assets. This has changed as physical assets have become less important than human capital. As human capital becomes the primary source of corporate equity, the old rationale for corporate institutional control is evaporating.

In the information and entertainment industries, before the digital and Internet revolutions, the initial outlay for entering the market was in the hundreds of thousands of dollars or more. The old electronic mass media, as Yochai Benkler put it, were “typified by high-cost hubs and cheap, ubiquitous, reception-only systems at the end. This led to a limited range of organizational models for production: those that could collect sufficient funds to set up a hub.” The same was true of print periodicals: Between 1835 and 1850, the typical startup cost of a newspaper increased from $500 to $100,000–or from roughly $10,000 to $2.38 million in 2005 dollars.

The networked economy, in contrast, is distinguished by “network architecture and the [low] cost of becoming a speaker.” The central change that makes this possible is that “the basic physical capital necessary to express and communicate human meaning is the connected personal computer.” The desktop revolution and the Internet mean that the minimum capital outlay for entering most of the entertainment and information industry has fallen to a few thousand dollars at most, and the marginal cost of reproduction is zero. The networked environment, combined with endless varieties of cheap software for creating and editing content, makes it possible for the amateur to produce output of a quality once associated with giant publishing houses and recording companies. That is true of the software industry, the music industry (thanks to cheap equipment and software for high-quality recording and sound editing),desktop publishing, and to a certain extent even film (as witnessed by affordable editing technology and the success of Sky Captain). Podcasting technology makes it possible to distribute “radio” and “television” programming, at virtually no cost, to anyone with a broadband connection. A network of amateur contributors have peer-produced an encyclopedia, Wikipedia, which Britannica sees as a rival. As Tom Coates put it, “[T]he gap between what can be accomplished at home and what can be accomplished in a work environment has narrowed dramatically over the last ten to fifteen years.”

It’s also true of news, with ever-expanding networks of amateurs in venues like Indymedia, alternative news operations like Robert Parry’s and Greg Palast’s, and Iraqis and American troops blogging news firsthand from Iraq, at the very same time that the traditional broadcasting networks are shutting down.
Agency Problems, Breakaway Firms

This has profoundly weakened corporate hierarchies in the information and entertainment industries, while creating enormous agency problems. As human capital eclipses physical capital as the main source of corporate equity, it becomes increasingly feasible for the human capital assets to vote with their feet. People can take their skills elsewhere, form “breakaway firms,” and leave their former employers as hollowed-out shells owning little more than the company name. This has happened in a few high-profile cases, such as Maurice Saatchi’s walkout from the Saatchi and Saatchi advertising agency, and Salomon Brothers’ loss of a group of traders responsible for 87 percent of the bond-trading firm’s profits. As organization theory writer Luigi Zingales put it, “[I]f we take the standpoint that the boundary of the firm is the point up to which top management has the ability to exercise power. . . , the group was not an integral part of Salomon. It merely rented space, Salomon’s name, and capital, and turned over some share of its profits as rent.”

Economist David Prychitko remarked on breakaway firms in the tech industry back in the 1990s when it was barely underway:

Old firms act as embryos for new firms. If a worker or group of workers is not satisfied with the existing firm, each has a skill which he or she controls, and can leave the firm with those skills and establish a new one. In the information age it is becoming more evident that a boss cannot control the workers as one did in the days when the assembly line was dominant. People cannot be treated as workhorses any longer, for the value of the production process is becoming increasingly embodied in the intellectual skills of the worker. This poses a new threat to the traditional firm if it denies participatory organization.

The appearance of break-away computer firms leads one to question the extent to which our existing system of property rights in ideas and information actually protects bosses in other industries against the countervailing power of workers. Perhaps our current system of patents, copyrights, and other intellectual property rights not only impedes competition and fosters monopoly, as some Austrians argue. Intellectual property rights may also reduce the likelihood of break-away firms in general, and discourage the shift to more participatory, cooperative formats.

In this environment the only thing standing between the old information and media dinosaurs and their total collapse is their so-called intellectual property rights–at least to the extent they’re still enforceable. Ownership of intellectual property becomes the new basis for the power of institutional hierarchies and the primary buttress for corporate boundaries.

The increasing prevalence and imploding cost of small-scale distributed production machinery, along with the rise of “crowdsourced,” distributed means of aggregating capital from small donors, mean that physical production is governed by the same phenomenon to a considerable extent.

Without intellectual property, in any industry where the basic production equipment is widely affordable, and bottom-up networking renders management obsolete, it is likely that self-managed, cooperative production will replace the old managerial hierarchies. The network revolution, if its full potential is realized (as James Bennett put it in the appropriately titled article “The End of Capitalism and the Triumph of the Market Economy”), will lead to substantial redistribution of power and money from the twentieth-century industrial producers of information, culture, and communications–like Hollywood, the recording industry, and perhaps the broadcasters and some of the telecommunications giants–to a combination of widely diffuse populations around the globe and the market actors that will build the tools that make this population better able to produce its own information environment rather than buying it ready-made.
Paying for the Name

Another effect of the shift in importance from tangible to intangible assets is that a growing portion of product prices consists of embedded rents on intellectual property and other artificial property rights, rather than the material costs of production. Tom Peters, in The Tom Peters Seminar, was fond of gushing about the increasing portion of product “value” made up of “ephemera” and “intellect” (that is, the amount of final price consisting of tribute to the owners of intellectual property) rather than labor and material costs. To quote Michael Perelman, “[T]he so-called weightless economy has more to do with the legislated powers of intellectual property that the government granted to powerful corporations. For example, companies such as Nike, Microsoft, and Pfizer sell stuff that has high value relative to its weight only because their intellectual property rights insulate them from competition.”

But intellectual property, as we have already seen, is becoming increasingly unenforceable. As a result, the ownership of proprietary content is becoming increasingly untenable as a basis for corporate institutional power. And we can expect the portion of commodity prices resulting from embedded rents on artificial property rights to implode.

A major component of the business model that prevails under existing corporate capitalism is the offer of below-cost platforms coupled with the sale of patented or copyrighted spare parts, accessories, and so on at an enormous markup. So one buys a cell phone for little or nothing, with the contractual obligation to use only a specified service package for so many years; one buys a fairly cheap printer, which uses enormously expensive ink cartridges; one buys a cheap glucometer, with glucose testing strips that cost $100 a box. Hacking one’s phone to use a different service plan, or manufacturing generic ink cartridges or glucose testing strips in competition with the proprietary version, is illegal. The same goes for manufacturing generic replacement parts for a car or appliance, in competition with the corporate dealership.

“Intellectual property” also serves as a bulwark to planned obsolescence and high-overhead production. As it is now, appliances are generally designed to thwart repair. When the repairman tells you it would cost more than it’s worth to repair your washing machine, he’s telling the truth. But he fails to add that this state of affairs reflects a deliberate design: The machine could have been designed on a modular basis, so that the defective part might have been cheaply and easily replaced. And if the manufacturer were subject to unfettered competition, the normal market incentive would be to do so.

Absent legal constraints, it would be profitable to offer competing generic replacements and accessories for other firms’ platforms. And in the face of such competition, there would be strong pressure toward modular product designs that were amenable to repair and interoperable with the modular components and accessories of other companies’ platforms. Absent the legal constraints of patents, an appliance designed to thwart ease of repair through incompatibility with other companies’ platforms would suffer a competitive disadvantage.

At the global level, intellectual property plays the same protectionist role for transnational corporations that tariffs performed in the old national economies. It’s hardly coincidental that the dominant industrial sectors in the global corporate economy–software, entertainment, biotech, pharmaceuticals, and electronics–all depend heavily on intellectual property. And the central focus of the neoliberal regime, which has been falsely identified with “free trade” and “free markets,” is on strengthening the legal intellectual property regime as the primary source of profits.

On a global scale, patents lock transnational manufacturing corporations into a permanent monopoly on productive technology. The central motivation in the GATT intellectual property regime is to secure the transnational corporations’ (TNCs) collective monopoly of advanced technology and prevent independent competition from ever arising in the Third World. It would, as the Third World Network’s Martin Khor Kok Peng writes, “effectively prevent the diffusion of technology to the Third World, and would tremendously increase monopoly royalties of the TNCs whilst curbing the potential development of Third World technology.”
Drawing to a Close

But to repeat, the good news is that, in both the domestic and global economies, this business model is doomed. The shift from physical to human capital as the primary source of productive capacity in so many industries, along with the imploding price and widespread dispersion of ownership of capital equipment, means that corporate employers are increasingly hollowed out and only maintain control over the physical production process through legal fictions. When so much of actual physical production is outsourced to the independent small shop (be it a Chinese sweatshop or a GM supplier) the corporation becomes a redundant “node” that can be bypassed. As blogger David Pollard described it, from the perspective of a future historian in 2015:

The expensive outsourcers quickly found themselves unnecessary middlemen. . . . The large corporations, having shed everything they thought was ‘non-core competency’, learned to their chagrin that in the connected, information economy, the value of their core competency was much less than the inflated value of their stock, and they have lost much of their market share to new federations of small entrepreneurial businesses.

For all the harm it does, intellectual property is not really even necessary as an incentive for innovation. Industrial analyst F. M. Scherer argued in the 1990s, based on a survey of 91 companies, that some 86 percent of all process and product innovations would have been developed from “the necessity of remaining competitive, the desire for efficient production, and the desire to expand and diversify their sales.”

And copyright is no more necessary for artistic creation than patents are necessary for invention. In the open-source world there are many businesses that manage to make money from auxiliary services even though their content itself is not proprietary. For example, Red Hat makes money off the open-source Linux operating system by customizing the software and offering specialized customer support. Phish has actively encouraged fans to share its music free of charge, while making money off of live performances and concessions. Radiohead offered a recent album for free download, collecting only voluntary contributions via what amounted to a glorified PayPal tip jar.

Since intellectual property is not necessary to encourage innovation, this means that its main practical effect is to cause economic inefficiency by levying a monopoly charge on the use of existing technology.

In any case, for those whose libertarianism follows from the principles of self-ownership and nonaggression, whether or not intellectual property is necessary to profit from certain forms of economic activity is beside the point. That’s the same argument used by protectionists: Certain businesses would be unprofitable if they weren’t protected by tariffs. But no one has a right to profit at someone else’s expense, through the use of force. In particular, no one has the right to make a profit by using the State to prevent others from doing as they please with their own pens and paper, hard drives, or CDs. A business model that isn’t profitable without government intervention should fail.
original link: http://www.thefreemanonline.org/featured/how-intellectual-property-impedes-competition/

tangent4ronpaul
10-08-2009, 05:17 PM
A great article by Kevin Carson:


original link: http://www.thefreemanonline.org/featured/how-intellectual-property-impedes-competition/

it's interesting to note that as far as pharmaceuticals, India patents the synthesis, while we patent the molecule. It could be argued that many drugs would never be invented if the monopoly on being able to sell it for so many years was not in place, but it could also be argued that it used to not cost that mutch or take so long to get approved before government regulation got involved and made costs skyrocket.

In the areas of DRM, yes - total pain in the ass, but the fields of reverse engineering and encryption have benefited.

As to operating systems, if there was no intellectual property, we would probably all still be using BSD and neither LINUX or SysV would have been invented. Microsoft wouldn't exist as a company, but Apple would.

Good fodder for a Science Fiction writer!

-t

muzzled dogg
10-08-2009, 05:22 PM
yeah

fuck that part of the constitution

tangent4ronpaul
10-08-2009, 05:36 PM
yeah

fuck that part of the constitution

For better or worse, we can't pick and choose what parts of the Constitution to follow. (Though almost all of our Congress Critters seem to think so). What is more useful would be re-examining what is a "reasonable" amount of time to hold that monopoly. Like long enough to get a head start getting established in the market - 6 months? a year?

Other business models have come up around shareware, like GIMP which is free. The main developers then write the really good documentation and tutorials and sell those to make money - but we've come full circle and are back at intellectual property, because the book is protected by copyright and can be scanned and distributed digitally.

Then there is shareware - pay if you like it and a low cost... (usually)

-t

forsmant
10-08-2009, 05:42 PM
By that logic all property is an impediment to competition.

Austrian Econ Disciple
10-08-2009, 05:46 PM
it's interesting to note that as far as pharmaceuticals, India patents the synthesis, while we patent the molecule. It could be argued that many drugs would never be invented if the monopoly on being able to sell it for so many years was not in place, but it could also be argued that it used to not cost that mutch or take so long to get approved before government regulation got involved and made costs skyrocket.

In the areas of DRM, yes - total pain in the ass, but the fields of reverse engineering and encryption have benefited.

As to operating systems, if there was no intellectual property, we would probably all still be using BSD and neither LINUX or SysV would have been invented. Microsoft wouldn't exist as a company, but Apple would.

Good fodder for a Science Fiction writer!

-t

There is absolutely no need for IP. How can you claim a monopoly on a thought? You can't, and it's an absurd notion with no rational in any event.

If there was no IP, companies would have an incentive to offer better support for their products, rather than only the product itself. Moreover, companies would find ways of protecting their product. This would mean, the base product that the founding company makes is, essentially the best item and for a time, the only item. Secondly, it still takes an extreme amount of capital to reverse engineer products and make them as well as the parent company.

The market would have perhaps similar products in nature, but quality and price would differ. This is hardly any different than many market functions today, but we don't create monopolies for them do we? Secondly, it would create incentive to create BETTER products to intice people to purchase.

This is the short, I could write a long thesis on the horrendous nature of government granted IP and Patent monopoly. There are many books out there. A quick google and amazon search will turn up many, I however recommend:

Man, Economy, State - Murray Rothbard (Intervenionism chapters)
Against Intellectual Monopoly - David Levine and Michael Boldrin
http://mises.org/story/3631 - This brief article (More principled and morality based)
Against Intellectual Property - Stephen Kinsella

nobody's_hero
10-08-2009, 05:48 PM
Coming up with fresh ideas is a way to get ahead in a competition.

If someone can simply steal your ideas and make them their own, how is that competitive?

(You also understand that there is a time-limit on patents, yes?)

muzzled dogg
10-08-2009, 05:50 PM
Coming up with fresh ideas is a way to get ahead in a competition.

If someone can simply steal your ideas and make them their own, how is that competitive?

(You also understand that there is a time-limit on patents, yes?)

lol dude you gotta read about this

Austrian Econ Disciple
10-08-2009, 05:50 PM
For better or worse, we can't pick and choose what parts of the Constitution to follow. (Though almost all of our Congress Critters seem to think so). What is more useful would be re-examining what is a "reasonable" amount of time to hold that monopoly. Like long enough to get a head start getting established in the market - 6 months? a year?

Other business models have come up around shareware, like GIMP which is free. The main developers then write the really good documentation and tutorials and sell those to make money - but we've come full circle and are back at intellectual property, because the book is protected by copyright and can be scanned and distributed digitally.

Then there is shareware - pay if you like it and a low cost... (usually)

-t

What is reasonable is to do the correct, and moral thing. Just because the constitution says X doesn't mean, that we should blindly follow it like little rabbits. Need, I also remind people, the Constitution has two processes to fix it;

1) Amending
2) Constitutional Convention

At a Convention, you can literally do anything. Get rid of it and replace it. Get rid of it. Alter it by amending, etc. The very first convention was held on the Articles of Confederation. It was originally supposed to only be amended, however, what happened was it being thrown out and the Constitution penned in it's place. Wonderful. We threw away our Confederacy for a Central State, AWESOME.

MRoCkEd
10-08-2009, 05:50 PM
The point is that ideas are not property

forsmant
10-08-2009, 05:55 PM
Ideas are currently in a property dispute. Although some Ideas are clearly property and most are not.

MRoCkEd
10-08-2009, 06:00 PM
Ideas are currently in a property dispute. Although some Ideas are clearly property and most are not.
Property is something you have ownership of, meaning exclusive control over. Theft occurs when one person transfers ownership of property from another to himself through force. In this sense, you cannot steal ideas because anyone can create them and having an idea that someone else has does not transfer it away from them.

forsmant
10-08-2009, 06:08 PM
That is correct to a point but what if I stole your idea to sing your love interest her favorite song which then leads her to date me instead of you? Using your idea certainly has its benefits at your apparent loss.

If your thoughts aren't your own how long before we decide that nothing is your own?

MRoCkEd
10-08-2009, 06:12 PM
That is correct to a point but what if I stole your idea to sing your love interest her favorite song which then leads her to date me instead of you? Using your idea certainly has its benefits at your apparent loss.

If your thoughts aren't your own how long before we decide that nothing is your own?
I am not sure that is a very strong case for intellectual property. ;) If you apply that to all areas of life, people would be restricting from doing almost anything because surely other people have had the idea to do them before you.

pcosmar
10-08-2009, 06:14 PM
"Great minds think alike"
I guess they are all guilty. :eek:

cheapseats
10-08-2009, 06:14 PM
It has been my experience over more years than many of you have been alive that the people who oppose Intellectual Property Rights are people who have never had an original idea.

If you can't put what you think you know into your own words, you can't be sure you know what you think you know. And I see a lotta lotta link-hurling around here, by way of stating a position. I can't begin to count the number of threads that have been entitled along lines like these: WHAT DOES DR. PAUL TELL US ABOUT THIS, QUICK! HELP ME DEBUNK THIS ARGUMENT, WHAT DO WE THINK ABOUT THIS, THAT OR THE OTHER.

Original material is original material. It's where the buck STARTS.

Austrian Econ Disciple
10-08-2009, 06:20 PM
It has been my experience over more years than many of you have been alive that the people who oppose Intellectual Property Rights are people who have never had an original idea.

If you can't put what you think you know into your own words, you can't be sure you know what you think you know.

Yes...because there isn't duplicative products in abundance out in the market that have different quality and pricing even though it fulfills the same function. :rolleyes:

Before you take a stand either way, read the pro's and con's, and then make a judgement. Don't make rash emotional tantrum's like those on the left, and for that matter on the right as well. Nothing good comes about IP and Patents, it's only purpose is to create a temporary Government granted monopoly. Whenever someone has an illegitimate monopoly this is BAD BAD BAD for the consumer. Higher prices, bad quality, poor customer service, etc. Oh of course....because they wouldn't make a profit on their horrible product they need a monopoly...:rolleyes:

tangent4ronpaul
10-08-2009, 06:29 PM
One of my pet peeves is our, the public's intellectual property. Most people don't regularly access or even know what's out there, but we PAY for a lot government R&D, software development, tapes, publications and so on.

When I'm looking for something the government has produced, the first thing I do is PRAY that NTIS has not gotten their dirty little paws on it. It's not uncommon to have to pay them $1 A PAGE for a report. Hay - I PAID for that research! I should be able to get it free, or at least at the cost of reproduction and mailing. If they don't have it, and depending on the agency, I can occasionally get it for free because calling the right person may land you a copy. A few agencies put their publications online. More often, you have to file a FOIA request. A process that can be fairly quick, to taking several years if it has any sort of classification markings. Some things are simply not available.

The GPO bookstore tends to be fairly reasonable, and offers fair prices - though selection is more limited.

The State Department put out some language tapes that are considered very good. Unfortunately, they went the way of many government products - licensed to a private vendor who charges out the nose for them. They have got to be the most expensive language tapes out there now.

Likewise, FBIS used to publish translated transcripts of foreign broadcasts, technical literature, newspaper articles and so on. This was available for lookup in a huge series of volumes and if your library had good subscriptions, could be read on microfilm of fiche - else, ordered. Now they have a web site that serves this up, but you can't access it unless you are current military or in the intelligence community. You can access part of it through a commercial service if you're willing to pay through the nose on a per article basis.

That I PAID for this stuff, and then the government wants me to PAY for it AGAIN (and at a premium price) pisses me off to no end!

/vent

-t

heavenlyboy34
10-08-2009, 08:06 PM
It has been my experience over more years than many of you have been alive that the people who oppose Intellectual Property Rights are people who have never had an original idea.

If you can't put what you think you know into your own words, you can't be sure you know what you think you know. And I see a lotta lotta link-hurling around here, by way of stating a position. I can't begin to count the number of threads that have been entitled along lines like these: WHAT DOES DR. PAUL TELL US ABOUT THIS, QUICK! HELP ME DEBUNK THIS ARGUMENT, WHAT DO WE THINK ABOUT THIS, THAT OR THE OTHER.

Original material is original material. It's where the buck STARTS.


I oppose IP and so do the zillions who publish their work online to get exposure. "link-hurling" isn't necessarily the same as avoiding the argument. I do it sometimes because I get sick of explaining a concept or my opponent demands "proof".

To illustrate the absurdity of IP, did you know that a fellow copyrighted the "happy birthday" song a few decades ago? He got all kinds of money for something that was theretofore just common knowlege.

Besides, if you take the constitution literally, it only allows for a "limited period of time" for IP protection. The copyright act turns this on its head and sets the period for more than the originator's lifetime! :eek:

Lest you question my qualifications, I'm a composer/arranger/graphic artist/musician, so I know a bit about this firsthand. :)

Matt Collins
10-08-2009, 08:14 PM
I have taken multiple classes in copyright law, I work in the music industry, and copyright is a hobby of mine.


That being said there is no such thing as copyright, and there is also no such thing as intellectual property. Ideas are not property, and having an exclusive monopoly to copy/distribute etc a work of art or an idea is NOT a right.

It should be called copyprivilege. Remember government cannot grant rights, only privileges.


Labeling it as intellectual "property" is a misnomer.

ClayTrainor
10-08-2009, 08:17 PM
I have taken multiple classes in copyright law, I work in the music industry, and copyright is a hobby of mine.


That being said there is no such thing as copyright, and there is also no such thing as intellectual property. Ideas are not property, and having an exclusive monopoly to copy/distribute etc a work of art or an idea is NOT a right.

It should be called copyprivilege. Remember government cannot grant rights, only privileges.


Labeling it as intellectual "property" is a misnomer.

Well said!

jyakulis
10-08-2009, 08:20 PM
So, you guys want to amend the constitution to take out this part?:

"The Congress shall have Power ... To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;"

Just wondering. That's fine. You realize every company that comes up with new technologies will just make their findings trade secrets. Why would you disclose something if it can be stolen and copied?

The temporary monopoly (patents) is a trade off for full disclosure (promotion of sciences).

Austrian Econ Disciple
10-08-2009, 08:24 PM
So, you guys want to amend the constitution to take out this part?:

"The Congress shall have Power ... To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;"

Just wondering. That's fine. You realize every company that comes up with new technologies will just make their findings trade secrets. Why would you disclose something if it can be stolen and copied?

The temporary monopoly (patents) is a trade off for full disclosure (promotion of sciences).

Nothing is a trade secret. Other companies can buy your product and reverse engineer it, or at least understand it's mechanisms. Besides, you don't believe that a company will pay (more) one of their employees to come work for them? Believe it or not, companies and corporations do intelligence work against their competitors.

Fallacy, fallacy, fallacy. There is absolutely no legitimate nor, moral arguement to be made for IP or Patent rights. Just because it's in the Constitution doesn't mean it's sacred.

jyakulis
10-08-2009, 08:31 PM
Nothing is a trade secret. Other companies can buy your product and reverse engineer it, or at least understand it's mechanisms. Besides, you don't believe that a company will pay (more) one of their employees to come work for them? Believe it or not, companies and corporations do intelligence work against their competitors.

Fallacy, fallacy, fallacy. There is absolutely no legitimate nor, moral arguement to be made for IP or Patent rights. Just because it's in the Constitution doesn't mean it's sacred.

Your first point of nothing is a trade secret. This is a fallacy. First how could you never know that. KFC special recipe for chicken much? I work for a high technology company. We can synthesize tantalum carbide. There happens to be many ways to synthesize it. Our way gets superior results. Most don't know why, even though they know the general processing techniques we use. We do. That's a trade secret.

Your second point about company A paying an employee more than company B he currently works for. Apparently you never worked in technology. Most if not all companies ask you to VOLUNTARILY sign a non disclosure agreement or you don't get to work there. That means you can't do that, or at least take their property and basically steal it or they can sue you for damages.

Austrian Econ Disciple
10-08-2009, 08:42 PM
Your first point of nothing is a trade secret. This is a fallacy. First how could you never know that. KFC special recipe for chicken much? I work for a high technology company. We can synthesize tantalum carbide. There happens to be many ways to synthesize it. Our way gets superior results. Most don't know why, even though they know the general processing techniques we use. We do. That's a trade secret.

Your second point about company A paying an employee more than company B he currently works for. Apparently you never worked in technology. Most if not all companies ask you to VOLUNTARILY sign a non disclosure agreement or you don't get to work there. That means you can't do that or at least take their property and basically steal it or they can sue you.

Did you read my opening post? Of course the parent company will produce the product better, but the market demand isn't only for quality. People will buy, and are interested in lesser quality products at lower prices. I thought this would be common knowledge seeing as every product on the market just about has duplicative products. What IP does, is make it illegal to even PRODUCE the product, or the idea.

Read Rothbard on IP. All his works are on mises for free.

Anything that is produced, can be reverse engineered period. Even so, there will be other people that come up with competing idea's, products, in the same functioning category. Look at Microsoft and Linux. They both fulfill the same function. Obviously some people think one is better than the other. Quality is as subjective as anything. This all goes back to Human Action by Mises and why Austrians don't really believe in econometrics too much.

Well, does that NDA last forever? What happens if the business goes bankrupt? What happens if he gets fired? I don't know anyone in their right mind who would sign a NDA stating they can never work in that related product field unless it's with this company only. Besides, there would be companies who lease their designs and idea's out to other's also.

In any event, I must reiterate, there is absolutely nothing that cannot be reverse engineered, it may not be the same, or it could be better, but there is always a market for "less desirables", otherwise there would only be one product of every good and that simply isn't true, is it?

Don't you think it's a bit ridiculous that I can't create a character that is like Mickey Mouse, but with a different name? They have essentially said that idea is their property, and the Government made it illegal for anyone else to produce such an idea. Do you honestly believe that this one person is, or would be, the only person in the history of the world to make a character like that?

nobody's_hero
10-08-2009, 09:20 PM
It has been my experience over more years than many of you have been alive that the people who oppose Intellectual Property Rights are people who have never had an original idea.

If you can't put what you think you know into your own words, you can't be sure you know what you think you know. And I see a lotta lotta link-hurling around here, by way of stating a position. I can't begin to count the number of threads that have been entitled along lines like these: WHAT DOES DR. PAUL TELL US ABOUT THIS, QUICK! HELP ME DEBUNK THIS ARGUMENT, WHAT DO WE THINK ABOUT THIS, THAT OR THE OTHER.

Original material is original material. It's where the buck STARTS.

Ding ding ding. Winner.

silverhandorder
10-08-2009, 09:33 PM
To me it seems the market has enough protection for IP. For government to provide it is not necessary.

I hate to break it IP defenders but just because you thought of a clever story does not mean that your asking price is correct. Once it gets out there it becomes impossible to enforce copy right protection. I think in this day and age where we have so many people who have the luxury time to produce intellectual property has reduced the value of it by inflating the supply.

I don't consider copying some one else theft.

tangent4ronpaul
10-08-2009, 09:47 PM
Your first point of nothing is a trade secret. This is a fallacy. First how could you never know that. KFC special recipe for chicken much? I work for a high technology company. We can synthesize tantalum carbide. There happens to be many ways to synthesize it. Our way gets superior results. Most don't know why, even though they know the general processing techniques we use. We do. That's a trade secret.

Your second point about company A paying an employee more than company B he currently works for. Apparently you never worked in technology. Most if not all companies ask you to VOLUNTARILY sign a non disclosure agreement or you don't get to work there. That means you can't do that, or at least take their property and basically steal it or they can sue you for damages.

WOW! - that tool about 5 seconds to find - some "trade secret".... :rolleyes:

http://www.recipezaar.com/KFC-Chicken-Secret-Spices-32331

KFC Chicken Secret Spices

I've never tried this, just saw it on another board and had to snatch it up! There are actually 11 spices in the above combination, but an additional 3 ingredients were necessary to get that special flavor.

3/4 cup (change servings and units)
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Ingredients

* 1 tablespoon rosemary
* 1 tablespoon oregano
* 1 tablespoon ground sage
* 1 teaspoon powdered ginger
* 1 teaspoon marjoram
* 1 1/2 teaspoons thyme
* 3 tablespoons packed brown sugar
* 3 tablespoons dry minced parsley
* 1 teaspoon pepper
* 1 tablespoon paprika
* 2 tablespoons garlic salt
* 2 tablespoons onion salt
* 2 tablespoons chicken bouillon powder or 4 chicken bouillon cubes, crushed
* 1 package lipton cup tomato soup mix

Directions

1.
1
Place all ingredients in blender and pulse for 3-4 minutes to grind well.
2.
2
Store in an airtight container.
3.
3
Makes about 3/4 cup.
4.
4
To use with flour, add 1 oz mix to 1 cup of flour for coating chicken.

http://www.kfcchickenrecipe.com/

Colonel Sanders prepared the chicken recipe about half a century ago and it is really quite hard to duplicate this recipe as it uses secret combination of herbs.
To protect their top secret recipe, KFC has portions of the secret blend of herbs premixed at two confidential spice companies. After that, the blend is distributed to the KFC's offices located at different, where they are finally combined for use. There is one more point to note, KFC uses pressure cookers to fry their chicken pieces so unless you have a way of pressure frying at home, it will be quite difficult for you to duplicate KFC chicken recipe.

If you want to fry super crusty and crispy chicken like KFC, you need to dip your chicken pieces in egg, then flour, then egg then flour coating. After that, you need to fry it in a pressure cooker so that you will get the exact same crusty and crispy taste to your fried chicken which KFC is so eager to protect at all cost. Before you proceed further it is advisable to go through the article KFC Secret Recipe to know about the secret mix of the herbs used by KFC to derive that special taste.

To prepare the KFC Chicken you will require the following ingredients:

1 tablespoon powdered sage leaves
1 teaspoon powdered dry ginger
1 tablespoon crushed rosemary leaves
1 pack of tomato soup mix
1 tablespoon crushed Mexican Origanum leaves
1 teaspoon sweet marjoram
1 teaspoon pepper
1 tablespoon hot pepper powder
1 chicken cut into frying pieces
1 1/2 teaspoon crushed wild thyme leaves
150 grams all purpose flour blended nicely with secret herbs combination
2 tablespoon of garlic salt
2 tablespoon of powdered chicken soup cubes
2 tablespoon of onion salt
2 eggs
160 milliliters of milk
40 gram brown sugar
3 tablespoon of dry minced parsley leaves


Method
You have to put all the ingredients mentioned above in a blender and blend it for 3 to 4 minutes barring flour, eggs and milk.
Next, combine the eggs and milk and beat it to a smooth consistency after that add the previously blended herbs and work out a homogeneous mixture. and take the flour on a baking paper sheet.

Now, dip the chicken pieces in the mixture and roll them on the flour until they are perfectly coated. Fry the pieces in a pressure cooker if you have one or you can just fry them at 365 degrees F (185° C) ascertained by dropping a 2 inch square of bread, it should turn golden brown in about 60 seconds. in the hot oil fry the chicken pieces for 20 to 30 minutes, occasionally turning them so that they are cooked evenly after the chicken pieces are fried golden brown.

Drain the fried chicken for a while on the tissue paper so that it won't be so oily and greasy. Serve them hot.

-t

RedStripe
10-08-2009, 09:51 PM
Kevin Carson for President

ClayTrainor
10-08-2009, 10:04 PM
Ding ding ding. Winner.

That's absolutely not true. I've made 100% of my income since quitting my job at the weather office, from original ideas, and i think IP rights are total bunk.

Andrew-Austin
10-08-2009, 10:13 PM
It has been my experience over more years than many of you have been alive that the people who oppose Intellectual Property Rights are people who have never had an original idea.

Ad hominem.



If you can't put what you think you know into your own words, you can't be sure you know what you think you know.

People on this forum who are against IP law break the issue down in their own words all the time. Its pretty simple.


I can't begin to count the number of threads that have been entitled along lines like these: WHAT DOES DR. PAUL TELL US ABOUT THIS, QUICK! HELP ME DEBUNK THIS ARGUMENT, WHAT DO WE THINK ABOUT THIS, THAT OR THE OTHER.


LoL well that does not apply to me, and I don't think it applies to most people who are against IP law, since most of us are ancaps or radical libertarians.

jyakulis
10-09-2009, 11:17 AM
Did you read my opening post? Of course the parent company will produce the product better, but the market demand isn't only for quality. People will buy, and are interested in lesser quality products at lower prices. I thought this would be common knowledge seeing as every product on the market just about has duplicative products. What IP does, is make it illegal to even PRODUCE the product, or the idea.

Read Rothbard on IP. All his works are on mises for free.

Anything that is produced, can be reverse engineered period. Even so, there will be other people that come up with competing idea's, products, in the same functioning category. Look at Microsoft and Linux. They both fulfill the same function. Obviously some people think one is better than the other. Quality is as subjective as anything. This all goes back to Human Action by Mises and why Austrians don't really believe in econometrics too much.

Well, does that NDA last forever? What happens if the business goes bankrupt? What happens if he gets fired? I don't know anyone in their right mind who would sign a NDA stating they can never work in that related product field unless it's with this company only. Besides, there would be companies who lease their designs and idea's out to other's also.

In any event, I must reiterate, there is absolutely nothing that cannot be reverse engineered, it may not be the same, or it could be better, but there is always a market for "less desirables", otherwise there would only be one product of every good and that simply isn't true, is it?

Don't you think it's a bit ridiculous that I can't create a character that is like Mickey Mouse, but with a different name? They have essentially said that idea is their property, and the Government made it illegal for anyone else to produce such an idea. Do you honestly believe that this one person is, or would be, the only person in the history of the world to make a character like that?

Look your claim that nothing is a trade secret is wrong. Again, how could you ever know that? And the fact that something may EVENTUALLY be backwards engineered doesn't mean that while people are trying to backwards engineer it, it remains a secret. So, to you the eventuality of someone finding out how to do something means that it was NEVER a secret, which is a fallacy. Maybe I gave a bad example with KFC, but it was at one time a trade secret and for many years. You are correct in that it can be reversed engineer. But it was a trade secret for many years. That's the risk/reward of trade secrets. You may be able to keep your edge longer than what a patent would give you.

What you folks don't seem to understand is that the patent system is a trade with the government. In order for the government to promote the sciences (you giving full disclosure of how the invention was made with the ability of someone having ordinary skill in the art to make and use that invention) the government gives you a temporary monopoly on your invention. And of course USC 101 in patent law gives inventors the ability to make new useful improvements on existing inventions. So, just because someone invents a spoon it doesn't mean no one in the country can produce spoons. It just means if you want to, you have to come up with an improvement on the design of a spoon that offers some sort of "utiility". AND OMGZ TWO PEOPLE CAN MAKE SPOONS. How bout that? That's why there's tons of semiconductor companies and companies that produce semiconductor equipment. Yet there are thousands of patents for semiconductor production and equipment. All because their equipment or their method offers some sort of utility.

Many a companies were formed on one patent and grew from there. I don't see how in your world globocorp just doesn't steal everyone else's inventions for their own since they would have the most resources available to them to backwards engineer everything.

from wikipedia:

"Trade secrets are by definition not disclosed to the world at large. Instead, owners of trade secrets seek to keep their special knowledge out of the hands of competitors through a variety of civil and commercial means, not the least of which is the use of non-disclosure agreements (NDA) and non-compete clauses. In exchange for the opportunity to be employed by the holder of secrets, an employee will sign an agreement not to reveal his or her prospective employer's proprietary information. Often, the employee will also sign over rights to the ownership of own intellectual works produced during the course (or as a condition) of their employment. Violation of the agreement generally carries the possibility of stiff financial penalties. These penalties operate as a disincentive to revealing trade secrets. Similar agreements are often signed by other companies with whom the trade secret holder is engaged, e.g. with the trade secret holder's vendors, or third parties in licensing talks or involved in other business negotiations.

Trade secret protection can, in principle, extend indefinitely and in this may offer an advantage over patent protection, which lasts only for a specifically limited period of time. Coca-Cola, the most famous trade secret example, has no patent for its formula and has been very effective in protecting it for many more years than the twenty years of protection that a patent would have provided. In fact, Coca-Cola refused to reveal its trade secret under at least two judges' orders.[5] However, the "down side" of such protection is that it is comparatively easy to lose (for example, to reverse engineering, which a patent will withstand but a trade secret will not) and comes equipped with no minimum guaranteed period of years."

powerofreason
10-09-2009, 11:29 AM
Look your claim that nothing is a trade secret is wrong. Again, how could you ever know that? And the fact that something may EVENTUALLY be backwards engineered doesn't mean that while people are trying to backwards engineer it, it remains a secret. So, to you the eventuality of someone finding out how to do something means that it was NEVER a secret, which is a fallacy. Maybe I gave a bad example with KFC, but it was at one time a trade secret and for many years. You are correct in that it can be reversed engineer. But it was a trade secret for many years. That's the risk/reward of trade secrets. You may be able to keep your edge longer than what a patent would give you.

What you folks don't seem to understand is that the patent system is a trade with the government. In order for the government to promote the sciences (you giving full disclosure of how the invention was made with the ability of someone having ordinary skill in the art to make and use that invention) the government gives you a temporary monopoly on your invention. And of course USC 101 in patent law gives inventors the ability to make new useful improvements on existing inventions. So, just because someone invents a spoon it doesn't mean no one in the country can produce spoons. It just means if you want to, you have to come up with an improvement on the design of a spoon that offers some sort of "utiility". AND OMGZ TWO PEOPLE CAN MAKE SPOONS. How bout that? That's why there's tons of semiconductor companies and companies that produce semiconductor equipment. Yet there are thousands of patents for semiconductor production and equipment. All because their equipment or their method offers some sort of utility.

Many a companies were formed on one patent and grew from there. I don't see how in your world globocorp just doesn't steal everyone else's inventions for their own since they would have the most resources available to them to backwards engineer everything.

from wikipedia:

"Trade secrets are by definition not disclosed to the world at large. Instead, owners of trade secrets seek to keep their special knowledge out of the hands of competitors through a variety of civil and commercial means, not the least of which is the use of non-disclosure agreements (NDA) and non-compete clauses. In exchange for the opportunity to be employed by the holder of secrets, an employee will sign an agreement not to reveal his or her prospective employer's proprietary information. Often, the employee will also sign over rights to the ownership of own intellectual works produced during the course (or as a condition) of their employment. Violation of the agreement generally carries the possibility of stiff financial penalties. These penalties operate as a disincentive to revealing trade secrets. Similar agreements are often signed by other companies with whom the trade secret holder is engaged, e.g. with the trade secret holder's vendors, or third parties in licensing talks or involved in other business negotiations.

Trade secret protection can, in principle, extend indefinitely and in this may offer an advantage over patent protection, which lasts only for a specifically limited period of time. Coca-Cola, the most famous trade secret example, has no patent for its formula and has been very effective in protecting it for many more years than the twenty years of protection that a patent would have provided. In fact, Coca-Cola refused to reveal its trade secret under at least two judges' orders.[5] However, the "down side" of such protection is that it is comparatively easy to lose (for example, to reverse engineering, which a patent will withstand but a trade secret will not) and comes equipped with no minimum guaranteed period of years."

barbarian

Socratic Method
10-09-2009, 11:31 AM
This helped me form my take on the issue. It may help you too.

http://libertariannation.org/a/f31l1.html

powerofreason
10-09-2009, 11:32 AM
This helped me form my take on the issue. It may help you too.

http://libertariannation.org/a/f31l1.html

Woot Roderick Long!

r33d33
09-19-2010, 06:38 AM
Woot Roderick Long!


The fundamental argument is that people will do stuff for free and the examples are that a few times have happened where people did do stuff for free, while ignoring the context that those things occurred in (ie. linux being a reaction to and copy of windows). Basically, the thought is that completely eliminating anyone actually paying for research in the global economy would have a positive effect on long term growth. That concept is flabbergasting. I'm completely speechless and have no good counter argument. I can't, because that concept goes against everything I have ever learned or ever known about how people and the greater economy actually works. It would be like trying to debate someone in a language I have never seen before.

Industries completely wiped out by this:
- Movies
- Publishing
- Software
- Electronics
- Pharmaceuticals
- Music

I mean, sure, there might be some people doing stuff in those fields, but they wouldn't get paid for it. Writing software or writing books would be purely for entertainment purposes and not part of the actual economy. All of them would go the way of painting where you have someone painting at night and working at 7-11 during the day to actually get money to buy food.